Some things I love about being a part of the SBC:
1) We have a great love for God’s Word. Admittedly, I wasn’t born when the Conservative Resurgence started; and I was a child when most of the meetings and changes occurred. I’ve merely been a beneficiary. But I have gotten to know some men and women who were there through it all and staked reputations and friendships on one main issue: the Bible. It’s a wonderful thing to be able to hear their words and learn their hearts, and to see the humility, the love for Jesus, and the love for his word.
2) We have a great love for missions. As the GCR debate has shown, we have differences of opinion on how to most effectively use God’s money for missions work; but it also shows that we all care about missions…with passion. We recognize that billions of people in this world are lost and in need of a savior. We recognize that people are only saved through the Gospel. So we band together to help support those who God calls to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth.
3) We have great room for diversity. Yes there are some essential things that tie us together, but we are a collection of Baptist churches with some members who are staunch cessationists while others are a bit more charismatic, some who are 5-point Calvinist while others see God’s sovereignty and man’s freedom in a different light, some who are Scofield Bible toting dispensationalist while others think the rapture comes after the tribulation or that the millennium is now, some who are staunchly congregational while others learn, worship and serve under the leadership of a plurality of elders…and the list could go on. And in my experience the people in the pew tend to be far more gracious about our diversity than what we sometimes see in the world of blogs.
I have been SBC all my life and out of doctrinal convictions and the reasons mentioned above, I wouldn’t want to be anything else.
Though I don’t think they’ve always carried it out perfectly (as I know I will not always do it perfectly), one of the main things I have learned from those who have gone before me as fathers and mothers in the faith and in the life of the SBC is that we must be always reforming—always looking once again to Scripture and asking the question: Do my life, beliefs, and church practices match what God said?
After all, the entire purpose of life (the entire purpose of creation) is Jesus (Colossians 1:15-20). And through fallible men God spoke and wrote his perfect, unerring, and infallible word (2 Peter 1:16-21). It is that word, alone, that tells us about Jesus, how to live life, and how to be the church.
None of us are perfect, none of us have it exactly right (we all are fallen sinners who at best see as in a mirror dimly)…so we must come back to the Bible and be willing to reform…to change so that we honor Jesus more fully.
Dave Miller (75)
Debbie Kaufman (63)
Rick Patrick (41)
Chris Roberts (37)
Bob Hadley (33)
Frank (33)
Greg Harvey (31)
Bart Barber (30)
dr. james willingham (30)
cb scott (29)
Well said.
Mike: Good word. I fear number 3 is being threatened but hopefully not.
Mike,
This is a great post… To pick up on what Bill Mac was getting at- what do you say to those who think the SBC’s “tent is too big?”
Amen, Mike.
I am so thankful for the SBC and couldn’t imagine supporting any other convention, at least while we stand on the principles of the BFM2K. I don’t think we’ll ever see a major liberal push in the SBC, thank God.
Number 3 is a great point. Generally speaking, diversity as is found in the SBC is a good thing. There are actually very few points of doctrine where a Christian should draw a line and say “This far, no farther.” It is a good thing that Baptists accept many different points of view on many subjects.
New here, been reading for the last few days. Just a quick point. If the definition of a baptist is someone that “accept(s) many different points of view on many subjects”, then I am not sure that Mr. Blackmon qualifies.
I love the SBC because the overwhelming majority of SBC boys love SBC girls and SBC girls love SBC boys. It just a far better “family” portrait in my opinion.
Yep. To quote Rick and Bubba, there aren’t too many American Leaguers. Most of them are strictly National League. LOL
Seriously, I love the SBC because it financed the greater part of all my degrees and every dime of one of them.
Had it not been for a president of a Southern Baptist funded college who let me in on probation after have only been saved about eleven months from pure paganism, I would never have gotten a Christian education or have gotten to experience many of the wonders that such an education gave me. Naturally, I owe the total of it to the grace of God. But God used Southern Baptists to give an American sub-cultured, social outsider like me a chance to serve Him in a better way.
Let me see if I can chime in with a few “I like the SBC because..” I’ll leave out the negatives…
I like the SBC because it funded my father’s education, allowing us to live somewhat comfortably in those early years. Ironically perhaps, the SBC put us in a financial situation that allowed than awesome Disney vacation in the late 80s. The SBC also paid for my late grandfather’s education and my uncle’s education – who pastored Southern Baptist churches for a combined 75 years and counting.
I like the SBC because of the WMU. After my grandfather died in late 83, my grandmother became much more involved in WMU. No longer simply the “preacher’s wife,” she developed an identity as a minister to senior adults and has devoted her life to full-time, unpaid Christian ministry with the aid of the WMU.
My wife, sister and I were all led to Christ in Southern Baptist churches. So that’s a plus. Some Georgia Baptists and Texas Baptists have been pretty decent to me along the way.
More recent “I like the SBC because”: I’m grateful to SBHLA for the research opportunities. All of the Southern Baptists that I have spoken or corresponded with over the last year have been quite helpful, Russ Moore especially.
Big Daddy,
I want to dedicate this next reason I love the SBC to you.
I love the SBC because of all the Southern Baptist colleges and universities, there has been no better football team among them than the Baylor Bears. Therefore, there has never been the possibility of the SABANATION suffering a defeat from a Southern Baptist funded school….and there never will be.
My Dad told the story of the Testimony meeting where after almost everyone in the congregation had given God the Glory except one poor old bent-up afflicted fellow in the back.
So the Preacher called him out, and said; Ever one else had something, What’s the Lord Done for you?
And the fellow said: “Well, Preacher, He pretty near ruirn’t me.”
That’s all I got about the SBC right now. Maybe something more hopeful later.
Nick Saban was at Kent State the day of the tragedy there.
He will not sign BFM 2000, nor would Dr. Matthews, one of the best President U Bama ever knew.
Would be interesting to see what Greg McElroy and Colt McCory think of BFM 2000 as both QB’s were subject of recent Chic Fil A documentary; and it is a matter of record Truett Cathy stood by Kirby Godsey when he was under attack of GBC fundamentalists led by the same man who went after Richard Jackson.
Steve,
Tim Tebow and his whole family would sign the BF&M 2000.
BDW,
You still live in Waco, right? What convention does your church belong to?
That would be the BGCT – the same convention that every major Baptist church in Waco belongs to, SBC and CBF alike. No strong SBTC presence around here.
I’m a member of Lake Shore BC. Prior to that, I was at Calvary BC during Julie Pennington-Russell’s tenure.
Does Baylor’s presence male a difference in the SBTC’s Waco presence?
The Baptist churches in Waco are comprised of Baylor people: faculty, staff, alumnua, and supporters. Naturally, these churches are more inclined to support the state convention that supports Baylor. Other issues are at play such as denominational loyalty and history. Even the conservative churches, uniquely aligned with the SBC, are loyal to the ministries of the BGCT. Most churches are reluctant to cut ties with an organization that they’ve enjoyed a relationship with for decades, in some cases much longer. That’s one reason why SBTC remains a much smaller convention, especially with regard to the number of uniquely affiliated congregations.
Yeah, makes sense and better explains your views, I suppose.
Tyler said he emailed you. Sorry again for all that mess.
I wouldn’t say that Texas Baptists have done much to shape my views/theology. My parents came to Baylor in 2003; I didn’t move to Waco until 2006. I grew up among moderate Baptists in Georgia and had/have friends at Mercer, spent time in DC with the BJC and in Atlanta with black Baptists while working for John Lewis. Waco is definitely a more friendly environment for someone with my views though.
CB,
How’d you pull off all that free education?
Brandon,
Garth Brooks sang a song about how I got my free education. It was a real hit. It was entitled:
“I’VE GOT FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES”
And Garth never lies… Except to his ex-wife…
Bill Leonard has thorough analysis of the SBC at ABP this morning:
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5341/53/
Comments there for the most part are civil and on point and run much less risk of being sabotaged by nonsense than other places.
Bill Leonard’s descriptive comments are spot on. I am sure that he and I would recommend different courses of action in response to the developments in the last few decades, but his description of the situation is good.
Louis: I can quite figure you; and I am not demanding anymore than you want to say about yourself as I resist such inquiries myself.
But for instance, we know the Bdidd is a Baylor candidate in Baptist history; could you tell us something in that vein about how you got to where you are in your take on Baptist matters; where schooled, what life experiences interest you in such matters.
The likes of Gene, Bdidd and myself are a little loud and our Baptist linkspretty obvious.
Kinda curious as little more of where you are coming from, Lydia and Christianne for that matter as well.
I do like what you said about the Leonard article and that give me some comfort that you are a person of good will.
I had some suspicions I guess in your interest in Billy Graham and the CNP.
Its too bad that the Baylor Bears can’t seem to beat anyone in the Big 12…
For what it’s worth, we did beat Mizzou last year. But if all you’re interested in is football, you have a point. I’m a UGA alum. I already had my team before moving to Waco.
If you grew up playing/watching lots of baseball, basketball and tennis like I did, Baylor is pretty good. Will be visiting with Ekpe Udoh, the #6 pick in NBA draft this year, at an event next week.
Brandon,
If you go to a SBC seminary, about 3/4 of your tuition is paid by the SBC. That would be true for anyone who goes to one of our seminaries from a church that is affiliated with the SBC.
The one degree I got that the SBC paid all, was one I received while on a scholarship above what the SBC normally pays for students going to SBC seminaries.
Yeah I’ve seen major discounts for SBCers. Perfect since I plan to get to an SBC seminary ASAP.
Brandon,
I have attended three SBC seminaries. They are all good. Frankly, they are the best. (I did attend two non-SBC seminaries for a short time.)
Yet, let me give you a piece of advice (notice how I love to give advice
). If you want the best theological education possible, load up your pack horse, set your face like flint, head to SEBTS and never look back.
SEBTS is where I’d go if I were a young whippersnapper today.
And you are right about Garth Brooks. He really was low when it came to his first wife. Reminds me of a seminary professor Gene and I discussed earlier.
I did enjoy a basketball game this past year at Baylor between the Bears and A&M. It was great…
Their tennis program is always among the tops in the nation.
Now they just have to figure out how to get the football program moving along at the same pace.
Josh did you play? How good were you?
My best days in my 30′s some time ago I could almost fake a 4.0 NTRP rating; but now I’m a disaster of an old fat guy who can hardly walk for a few days if I play and try to pull the aces I was delivering when I was hanging with a Pakistani Jr. Davis Cup team member in 84
One test of Bergman’s construct of Baptist Reformation could come in the next couple years if Charles Pickering’s SBC witness is reexamined in light of the upcoming biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer by his former Pastor’s son Charles Marsh.
As a foretaste of how that conversation may develop I offer this 50 minute lecture of Marsh this last March in Berlin, where he soars in the last ten minutes.
Maybe more telling for Baptist Reformation is how Richard Land and Ronnie Floyd would react to Marsh’s 2006 Wayward Christian Soldiers where he takes many leading SBC pastors to task.
But Mercer, Vandy, or Samford should have Marsh on campus with Charles Pickering, a board member of the rightists Alliance Defense Fund; and interpret Pickering’s Baptist reformation in light of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Lecture link:
http://tinyurl.com/3xgcv7n
Matt:
This is a great post… To pick up on what Bill Mac was getting at- what do you say to those who think the SBC’s “tent is too big?”
Really… not too much.
Other than to ask the questions: Why is it too big? and What is the reason to make it smaller? and Who has the authority to do that? I mean, ultimately, the way the SBC is set up, the messengers at any given meeting have the right to narrow the parameters of cooperation however they wish (though we hope they keep them in a Biblical framework). But until the convention decides otherwise, they have already set the parameters w/ the BF&M2000, it’s just a matter of keeping people in check with it–narrow or wide.
But when it gets down to it, I go back to this: And in my experience the people in the pew tend to be far more gracious about our diversity than what we sometimes see in the world of blogs.
My experience is just that–as a whole the people of SBC churches are flexible and willing to listen so long as you demonstrate a love for Jesus, a love for them, and a biblical reason. They’re not so interested in what someone says on some blog about traditional baptists or what someone says from some office about other church planting networks or what someone writes in some book about spiritual gifts… They’re interested in the character, the passion, and the thoughts of those in more daily and hands on leadership.
They might not be the most visible or the most vocal, but they’re the ones who ultimately make up the majority of the SBC.
I admire your sentiment Bergman but if SBC is big on parameters what do they do with church that calls itself SBC, supports Habitat for Humanity, sends kids to Passport, Pastor’s wife and five leading deacons support SBWIM; a third of the Sunday School classes use Smyth and Helwys; and the children who go away to Duke and UVA come back and talk about the late 1800′s when the Christ of History became the Christ of Faith?
SBC Prez Candidate Jimmy Jackson was about to ban FBC Huntsville, Al from the local Association cause they had ordained women on staff. Should Jackson have gone through with that, or do you as gracious people of the pew Baptists think the BFM 2000 should have no teeth.
And if a third of your leading CP giving churches are of a nature I outlined above, how much integrity do you have as you continue to laugh all the way to the Bank,or am I missing something.
Of course, the BF&M should “have teeth”… if that is the doctrinal guidelines of the convention, then you shouldn’t be a missionary, a professor, a trustee, or a church that votes if you can’t agree w/ the guidelines…
The better question would be, though: why would a church and people that has so much disdain for the BF&M2000 want to remain a part of the covention and send $$$, when it should be clear by now it’s not going to return to the way things were in the 60′s and 70′s, nor should it?
Simple, Mike. They’re like the Sith. They’re hanging around, lurking in the shadows to try and take back the convention and hurt those mean old fundy’s the way the fundy’s hurt them. That’s why they don’t come out and admit what they really believe but rather you have to “smoke them out” (i.e. Stephen Fox doesn’t believe salvation is exclusive through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ).
No, Stephen, you are not missing something. You are absolutely correct in stating these churches should be graciously turned out into the moderate pastures they are more comfortable.
Truth cannot compromise and remain truth.
So, I agree we should “come out from among them and be separate.” That does not mean we have to be condemnatory, just resolute.
Please send me the names of all such churches you are aware of and I will promise you that I will bring the matter to the fore. Sometime it takes months to get these kinds of matters resolved. Again, graciousness with resolution is what we need.
Thanks for you help.
Just post the names of those churches here and I will take it from there.
“Truth cannot compromise and remain truth.”
True dat!
And the folks who broughtyou all of this were, in the beginning, five point calvinists. The founders of Phila., Chrleston, Sandy Creek, Elkhorn, Kehukee, and Ketocton, were all five pointers with a great spirit of liberalism and winsomeness and zeal and gung ho evangelism. They expcted to win the whole world wit the truth of Christ died for the church (no mention of any one else) which was in the Abstract of Principles of Mt. Pisgah Baptist Church under which Matthew T. Yates was converted, called to preach, ad sent forth to be the first Southern Baptist Missionary to China. As to the first of general atonement being allow, it was due to the liberalism of the calvinistic Separate and Regular Baptists of Virginia and North Carolina, when they became United Baptists in 1787 and passed the rule, “the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man,” shall be no bar to communion, to accomodate some weaker brethren. Now we are getting ready to have the Third Great Awakening and win the whole earth and every soul on it in one generation and then for a 1000 more generations after that in order to literally fulfill the promises to Abraham that his seed would be as numerous as the stars of Heaven, the sand by the seashore, and the dust of the earth, so you all had better get ready for Sovereign Gace to come roaring back in its most winsome and wonderful forms (converted sinners who are overjoyed that people so sorry as them should be accounted worthy to be touched by Jesus)!
JOe:
Stephen Fox believes that WA Criswell and Ronnie Floyd do NOT offer the best pathway and example for Christian Growth and Maturity.
That is what Stephen Fox Believes.
At the time Stephen Fox accepted Jesus as his Saviour, for time and eternity his SBC Preacher Father believed much like you do, but stood by his classmate at SEBTS RandallLolley, and Stewart Newman till the Day he died.
So the Gospel is not as exclusive of the Mind as you Shout.
I thought we left your nonsens in the BFM 2000 thread as Brandon asked us to do.
I asked a civil question of Bergman and he gave his civil reply.
No need to to have another round of your rant. Many it seems tome are looking for a higher level of discourse in this thread.
Yes, but Stephen Fox does not believe salvation is exclusively based on faith in Christ and repentance from sin. According to you, a muslim can go to heaven based solely on his muslim faith. According to you, a mormon can go to heaven based on his mormon faith. Therefore, you do not believe the biblical gospel. Ergo,whatever you want to cal “accept[ing] Jesus as [your] Savior” (a phrase a mormon could use, btw) it was not a true conversion.
Tell that to Billy Graham’s pastor at FBC Spartanburg SC who endorsed Mitt Romney for President; or one of the major SBC religious right families in the state of SC, the Campsens–great friends of Jenny and Mark Sanford– who are backing a Sikh, Nikki Haley with Sarah Palin’s blessing for Current Governor.
She became a Methodist, but her convictions haven’t been explored to the nth degree by the Joe Blackmon purification mandate.
Ask Mohler and Ronnie Floyd calling for Timothy George’s dismissal from Dean of Beeson Divinity School on charge of Being Friendly to the Baptist World Alliance and that will set the standard for Teeth to the BFM 2000
Stepehn, maybe you’re not getting enough oxygen or maybe you just don’t read very well, but I have said NOTHING about politics or BFM’s or Palin/Bush/McCain.
The gospel is that salvation is found exclusively through faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin. Period. Anyone, like you, who believes that a muslim can place their faith in Islam or that a mormon can trust the teaching of Jeseph Smith and still get to heaven believes and teaches a satanic gospel.
Blather all you want about Republican’ts, BFM’s, and any other mess you want to. It doesn’t change the fact that you’re NOT saved because you don’t believe the gospel.
Tell that to Billy Graham’s pastor at FBC Spartanburg SC who endorsed Mitt Romney for President; or one of the major SBC religious right families in the state of SC, the Campsens–great friends of Jenny and Mark Sanford– who are backing a Sikh, Nikki Haley with Sarah Palin’s blessing for Current Governor.
Sorry, Mr. Fox, but last I checked, though there is a section on Christians and social order, political backings are not a major issue in the BF&M, so I’m not seeing your point.
Diversity and standards aren’t that tricky. There are some things of the Christian faith, and specifically, Baptist theology that are rooted soundly in scripture with no room for compromise–God as creator, the deity of Jesus, salvation in Jesus alone, the sinfulness of man, the resurrection of the dead, etc. These define Christians from non-Christians. Other things have historically been open to interpretation but fall under the division of what it means to be baptist vs. non-baptist–pedo vs. credo-baptism for example. And still other things that Southern Baptists have never officially declared to be dividing lines–things left out of our statements of faith, such as every point of calvinism and the finer points of eschatology (though we all agree Jesus is coming back, personally, to judge and establish his kingdom).
Our tent should be big enough and we should be gracious enough to allow great diversity in the latter of those things… our tent should be big enough and we should be gracious enough that we can stand side-by-side and reach the lost with those of that middle category, though we would not stand in cooperative agreement with them as a denomination… and our tent should be big enough and we should be gracious enough that we passionately share the gospel with those who fall outside that first category.
When you get down to it: I wouldn’t want R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, Molly Marshall, or Clark Pinnock as part of the current day SBC: voting on things and people who appoint the trustees, etc. But with the first two, at least I have no doubt that they are Christians, and I would happily go with either to evangelize the lost.
So you got some doubts about Molly Marshall Being a Christian, or did I read you wrong.
I was at FBC Greenville, SC the summer of 89 when the Alliance of Baptists was meeting before the CBF took shape.
During the break had brief conversation with my Dad, Randall Lolley and the Pastor who was then pastor of MLKing’s internationally known Ebenezer Baptist in Atlanta.
He preached on the Resurrection of the Just; and it was grand, I heard him preach on TV at Daddy King’s funeral on the Theme I Just Want to Go Home.
Where is it you find that Bill Leonard and Russell Dilday or Anne Graham Lotz bro in law of the BWA doesn’t believe those five central things you hold as Central.
Robert Marsh at 2nd Ponce in Atlanta in 1990 looked at the same thing you did and he came to a different conclusion about what the SBC takeover was grounded in.
Whose right, you or him?
Molly Marshall formerly of Southern? The universalist? Of course she’s not saved. She doesn’t believe the gospel. She believes salvation is not exclusively found by faith in Christ and repentance of sin. Ergo, she is not a Christian.
Mr. Fox, this is what I have to go on:
When it comes to the resurgence, like I said: I was at best a wee child, so I didn’t see it with my eyes…but I have met some and have gotten to know others who were personally involved… some who have been mentioned by name by you and others, and some who weren’t quite so forefront on the public stage w/ it. All of them have come across as very humble and gracious people, and the ones I personally know have proven it with their character day in and day out. None of them are in denial that politicking happened by all sides to various degrees, nonetheless the main thing comes back to the main thing: the Bible. Why would I have reason to doubt them?
As for Molly Marshall… I was at Southern for 3.5 years… Jan ’04-May ’07, and had an outstanding experience and a deep education that forced me to intellectually and critically interact with people from all positions across all of history. Add to this my natural ingrained nerdiness and bookwormishness, I also spent three of those years working in Boyce Library–which if I might add my own biased plug is among the finest theological libraries around–which gave me plenty of time and access to read dissertations among other books.
With Marshall’s–I wouldn’t go so far as to call her a full blown universalist–but she clearly wrote that people of other faiths might still be saved through Jesus without ever having heard of him or the gospel.
I can’t speak of Marshall’s own personal salvation, I don’t know her. But I know what she wrote. It’s not just a different interpretation, it is something that stands clearly opposed to the plain teaching of scripture. The only way to accept it is to reject portions of the Bible, and not just the typical “scientific/historical” stuff that’s tossed out against inerrancy, but specific and clear faith claims made by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, etc.
Her view expressed in her dissertation is unbiblical and dangerous to the spread of the gospel. By its nature it consigns people to hell because there is no reason to bring their lives into interaction with the Gospel or Jesus as the savior.
So like I said: I don’t know about her life, but her writings cause doubt and would make me, if I met her, witness to her instead of taking her witnessing with me.
Which, of course, that goes back to what I initially said: I have a lot of appreciation for the men and women in the CR who risked friendships and reputations for the sake of the Bible; because if the convention went (or ever goes) the direction of Marshall’s dissertation, then God help us…
That was interesting. Of course I disagree with your conclusions, but I found it interesting.
Would be interesting to see your take on Bill Hull’s new book on the Honeycutt and Duke McCall administrations.
For the record, I remember doing an interview of Molly Marshall the summer or Fall Mohler and the Firm forced her resignation.
She told me about the time couple years earlier she was on some panel at Princeton and Pat Robertson and Hillary Clinton were on the same panel on Religion in America.
She said she hit Robertson with a Zinger and looked over, made eye contact with Hillary, and Hillary gave her a thumbs up wink.
In historical context will always have a lot of admiration of Molly for that.
Do hope at some point you can make time for the Unfettered Word. Would be interested in your take on that as well.
Seems like you took a pass in the previous discussion in re the denominational pilgrimage of Adrian Rogers NOBTS classmate.
Here is a link to that; pages 3-5 are the pages to key on:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NXG/is_1_42/ai_n19311257/pg_5/?tag=content;col1
How come Ronnie Floyd hasn’t put you on a Major Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, or maybe they have, Joe Blackmon and I haven’t heard about it.
Is it maybe they don’t believe like you do, which means they aren’t saved, way I understand you; cause otherwise looks like you ought to be front and center or some blowhard is just blowing in the wind.
I can’t figure it out why I don’t see you quoted in Baptist Press more often.
Is Al Mohler convinced Molly Marshall isnot a Christian. News to me if that’s what he thinks.
How can one believe the Bible in #1 above, yet claim that every one can do as they choose as stated in #3?
I am not a Pastor, Teacher but a student. I believe there are many False Prophets in many churches leading people astray. The End Times are coming and no one seems concerned or preaching on that.
And Rapture is not in the Bible and is a false teaching! And that False teaching is going to let a lot of people worship the Antichrist which will doom them. And you are still a bunch of racket jawing false prophets. I do not feel led to send money to an organization that condones false preaching.
I
DLG,
What else beside the Rapture do you consider as false doctrines?
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Not teaching this is False) This was the First Earth Age and it is not taught. What happened here? Not taught!
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (God created all Races male and female – this is not taught as the first men/women on earth) False teaching. Lifeway prints literature that teaches Adam was first man.
Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (And God created Adam- the first Man in the Family Tree of Jesus the Christ) True statement, but is taught he was the first man, not that he was just the first in Jesus’ family tree.) False teaching.
After Genesis 1:1 begins the second Earth Age -current age then the Third Earth Age starts when Christ returns – Heaven. Not Taught correctly.
False teaching It is more about not teaching the Antichrist comes bringing tribulation then the True Christ comes and there is more tribulation after the 1000 years. Not teaching is just as important as teaching something wrong. If you do not teach what the folks need, then what kind of pastor teacher are you – False Teacher. Jesus mentioned more about false teachers than just about anything! You the PASTORS will have a special Hearing before God. I am not worried about you, it is all the Flock, especially the ones who will follow the Antichrist.
I know the Baptist F&M does not mention the Rapture, it says the politically correct thing – End Times as determined by God. Afraid to make a judgment call or statement! Let anyone do what they want with one of the most important parts of the Bible especially in these times.
Some of these folks are worse than the President or our Congress. They may make us pay for Hell but they cannot send us there. A Pastor can, and a lot are doing that!
You the PASTORS will have a special Hearing before God. I am not worried about you
Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it.
Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (And God created Adam- the first Man in the Family Tree of Jesus the Christ) True statement, but is taught he was the first man, not that he was just the first in Jesus’ family tree.) False teaching.
Yeah, if someone taught in my church that Adam was not the first man but rather just the first man in a specific line, I would have issue with it. You go on about the rapture not being in the Bible so it’s false teaching…show me one verse anywhere in the Bible that talks about Adam being not the first man but merely the first in Jesus’ family tree.
The fact of the matter is the idea you presented actually weekens the idea of sin and the curse for if Adam was not the first, but there were others then he could not have been the one in which all died–Romans 5. If there were all these others then either 1) there had to be a whole lot of other falls, 2) none of them were created sinless and good in the first place, or 3) after the fall and the curse of the ground there were a whole lot of sinless people running around having to deal with the effects of sin. The Bible knows nothing of any of this.
I don’t know where you get your ideas from, but for someone who comes on here and points the finger of “false teaching” etc, you need to check your own doctrine…
Prehuman animals were walking around the savannah grass of Northern Africa and nature urged them to stand up on two feet and look across the grass and before long they were eye contact and uttering sounds which became language and before long you had Adam and the amphictyony of the Israelites and a Salvation Story perfected in Jesus and it is all just as true as Bergman’s theory.
Fox,
Are those prehuman animals your cousins?
David
No. they were your cousins.
None of my cousins were born til after God evolved humankind into the CBF stage.
cb scott July 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Seriously, I love the SBC because it financed the greater part of all my degrees and every dime of one of them.
(You Preach what they tell you because they paid for your education – #1 reason to stop sending money to cooperative program)
DLG,
I could be wrong but I think probably 50% of SBC pastors are pre-tribulational rapturists. It is not heresy bro
I doubt its 50% – perhaps among older pastors. But to call any eschatological position (except perhaps for certain forms of preterism) heresy is ridiculous.
DLG,
Obviously, you have never been in any college, university or seminary classroom with me. On more than one occasion, professors called me into their offices for private meetings after the first week or two of class.
In those private meetings, they would “lovingly” tell me that in their classroom, they were the teacher and I was the student. I always got a real kick out of those meetings. I remember Tim Rogers and some of his pals used to throw stuff at me in a late afternoon class we were in together trying to get me to shut up, thinking they might get out of class early. Tim and I became good friends, especially after he found out that I was the grader for that class and for another professor he was taking also.
So in the end, DLG, I do not preach what they tell me because they paid for my education. Nonetheless, the things they did tell has greatly influenced me and I certainly pray that my preaching reflects much of what they taught me in spite of me raggin’ on some of them so much. I rejoice in the Lord for the learned men who taught me in Southern Baptist institutions. (even though I had a lot of fun at their expense some time.)
And, DLG, I can assure you I thank the Lord in heaven for every Southern Baptist in the pew who helped finance my education through the CP.
But “DLG”, it was an old Marine Gunny who taught me to always own my own words, for otherwise someone might take me for a coward. I don’t guess you had the benefit of a Gunny in your life did you there, “DLG”?
Man, that’s bad! No Gunny. No CP. DLG, you have really missed out haven’t you Buddy.
DLG obviously has no clue what he’s talking about. SB’s trained in the same exact schools disagree over minor points of theology…sometimes even over major points of theology.
And, really, DLG, to call pretrib rapture heresy???? Good night, man, do you realize that you just called some of the most godly, Bible believing, Gospel preaching fellas in the world “heretics?”
DLG, drink some coffee. Read a few theology books. Read the book of Revelations. Then, come back and discuss this again.
David
Dave Miller,
What exactly are these certain forms of preterism? Is it Mt24-25 and Rev fulfilled in 70AD and Christ already came then?
To embrace calvinism someone must embrace ONE people of God view–the church started in Genesis and believing Israels were, are,and will be incorporated in this ONE body, the church. Hence, no eschatology as such–only soteriology. This is basically the amillennialism of most calvinists.
It is just me.
The more extreme forms of preterism that deny an actual future second coming of Christ would come close to qualifying as heresy.
All preterism is bad hermeneutics. Only some is heresy.
Dave,
Is preterism the majority voice in SBC schools?
I do not think so.
lu ba bi,
I would say that the majority of SB’s believe in pre trib, pre mil view of eschatology. There are some that hold to a mid trib. pre mil view. And, there are some that would hold to a post trib. pre mil view. And, I guess there’s more amillenials nowadays with the younger ones getting into 5 point Calvinism. That tends to lean towards amillenialism for some reason.
But, I’d say that most SB’s believe in the pre trib. pre millenial view of the end times.
DAvid
David,
That is what I suspected: the leaning towards TULIP also includes amillennialism.
I think it is not good for long term spiritual and ecclestiatical well being.
I have seen the extreme form of it expressed by the Christian Reconstruction Movement. Also Kuyperism in the Netherlands (which was patterned after Calvin’s Geneva).
Actually, most of the 5-pointers I know tend towards historic post-tribulationism, not amillennialsim.
At least you men are not talking about football any more! I made my point.
Mike Bergman July 17, 2010 at 9:09 am
My Bible teaches “All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” No time frame mentioned that I know of! Either you believe the Bible or you do not. The Bible will defend it self.
Stephen Fox July 17, 2010 at 10:44 am
You talk of evolution that’s false – My Bible teaches creation by God.
cb scott July 17, 2010 at 11:35 am
Good for you! Now use that same fortitude and teach what God says in His word the Bible, not some man’s traditions. It’s not what I say it is What God says in His Bible. He is the Judge, not me. Judge Not says my Bible.
volfan007 July 17, 2010 at 2:31 pm
I matters Not what I say but “Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
volfan007 July 17, 2010 at 2:39 pm
It matters Not what SB’s believe, But only what the Word of God says. Therein is the problem. Pastors ARE NOT Teaching the Full Truth of the Bible – there for any teaching Not In the Bible is FALSE.
And actually, I do All of my Bible Study under the teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT with a very little of direction of some old gunny marine.
YOU EACH will stand before God and give an account of your Teaching and Preaching, a Full Accounting to God. I pray for each of you to reexamine your teaching and preaching and toss out all of mans traditions and teach only the word of God. Amen
Wow, I feel like someone should give an invitation right now!
What an amazingly arrogant comment!
DLG,
Please make an effort to capitalize “Marine” next time. And if you will notice, I did not say he taught me the Scripture. I said he taught me to own my own words lest someone consider me a coward as I do you now.
Would you be so kind as to tell me what “DLG” actually stands for which will allow me to vanquish my thoughts of you being a person who is too cowardly to identify himself when he comes flaming everyone with some kind of Voodoo-theo-biblio-werewolfing-vampire-infested, religious nut comments? Would you do that for me DLG? I would appreciate such a kind gesture on your part ever so much.
Our Father, through the Holy Spirit, draws His children like a magnet. He tugs and pulls at their hearts. God wants you to know His Word is truth. His Word is the way. Let’s open our Bibles to John 6:39. Jesus had just fed five thousand with five barley loaves and two fishes. Some were hanging around for another free fish sandwich. They were thinking physical, not spiritual.
(John 6:39) And this is the Father’s will Which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
This verse speaks of the elect. They will stand against the antichrist. The Lord will raise them up in the first resurrection at the beginning of the millennium.
(John 6:40) And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The eternity is going to be wonderful. All of God’s family who love Him will be there, and those who are wicked will have been destroyed in the lake of fire.
(John 6:41) The Jews then murmured at Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He saith, ‘I came down from heaven?’”
Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, not the son of Joseph. These people haven’t a clue.
(John 6:43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, “Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
God draws people to believe on Jesus. He nudges them through the Holy Spirit to partake of the bread of life. He tugs at the hearts of those who do right.
(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall be all taught of God.’ Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me.
This verse is quoting Isaiah 54:13. It is written to those who will remain barren when the false messiah appears on earth. Those that are interested are taught the Word of God. Why would anyone want the word of man over the Word of God? You wouldn’t, and you are blessed as a result.
(John 6:46) Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He Which is of God, He hath seen the Father.
If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.
(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.
Partake of the bread that lasts a lot longer than any fish sandwich. If you believe, the Lord promises this bread gives you life everlasting.
(John 6:49) Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The manna in the wilderness couldn’t give eternal life any more than the fish sandwich we’ve been talking about. Jesus Christ is the bread of life. Partake of this bread, and you will never die. He sacrificed Himself on the cross for your sins. He did it because He loves you. Let’s continue our study in Chapter 21 of this same Book. The bread of life has been crucified. He is about to make His third appearance to the disciples, after he resurrected.
(John 21:3) Simon Peter saith unto them, “I go a fishing.” They say unto him “We also go with thee.” They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Christ made the disciples fishers of men. They were supposed to be sharing the gospel so God could draw His children to the Word. The disciples were fishing for fish. They left Jesus out of the equation. He wasn’t in the boat.
(John 21:4) But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. Then Jesus saith unto them, “Children, have ye any meat?” They answered Him, “No.”
Think spiritual. Jesus wanted to know if they had any meat of the Word. Do you want to fish for men? Listen carefully.
(John 21:6) And He said unto the, “Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find.” They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
When Christ is in your boat, and you fish for men the way He tells us to fish, you can’t imagine how successful you will be. Always fish out of the right side of the boat. What’s on the left? Socialism and communism are on the left. They will try to draw you away from God.
(John 21:7) Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, “It is the Lord.” Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (For he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.
Peter was very excited about seeing the Lord once again. He cast himself in the sea to swim to shore.
(John 21:8) And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits) dragging the net with fishes. As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.
Did the Lord need the disciple’s meat? No, He did not. He already had meat. In fact, he has enough spiritual meat to feed the entire world, today.
(John 21:10) Jesus saith unto them, “Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.” Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, and hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
There is always room for more Christians. The church will hold as many as are drawn to the Lrod. Turn with me to the Book of Acts.
(Acts 20:27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
Salvation isn’t free. Jesus paid an awesome price on the cross. If you have been made an overseer, feed the flock. We feed the sheep God’s Word.
(Acts 20:29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Beware of false preachers. They won’t be drawing the flock to God. They are drawing the flock away from God.
(Acts 20:31) Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Paul was concerned for the flock, and we should be concerned for the flock. Watch out for false teachers. Feed the sheep God’s truth. Let’s turn to Hebrews.
(Hebrews 10:22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Be honest with God. Let Him know you love Him, and He will actually tug at your heart. He will nudge you in the right direction in your daily life.
(Hebrews 10:23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful That promised;)
God promised that he would forgive our sins upon repentance, and He is faithful to that promise. Once you are forgiven, the sin is blotted out. It never happened.
(Hebrews 10:24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Build your brothers and sister in Christ up. Edify them. This is especially important as we see the Lord’s day approaching. The Lord’s day is the millennium.
(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
This refers to God’s elect, when they are delivered up. If they refuse the Holy Spirit to speak through them, it is unforgiveable. There is no sacrifice to cover that sin.
(Hebrews 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgement, and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith He was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
God’s adversaries are going to pay. They insult the Holy Spirit by refusing to be drawn to God.
(Hebrews 10:30) For we know Him that hath said, “Vengeance belongeth unto Me, I will recompense, saith the LORD.” And again, “The LORD shall judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
You do not want to make God angry with you. Why? He is the only One that can kill both your flesh body and your soul. (Matthew 10:28)
(Hebrews 10:32) But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of affliction; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and affliction; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Satan doesn’t like for God’s children to become illuminated. He will make things tough on you, if you don’t exercise the power Christ gave you over him (Luke 10:19).
(Hebrews 10:34) For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward.
You can’t imagine the reward sGod has in store for those who serve Him. He knows our needs, and He will add unto what we need abundantly.
(Hebrews 10:36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and He That shall come will come, and will not tarry.
The fig tree generation is getting a little time on it. This generation shall not pass (Matthew 24:34).
(Hebrews 10:38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
God takes no pleasure in those who draw back from the tug of His Spirit. You aren’t the type to draw back when God nudges you. You are draw by God.
Is that what they teach in Gadsden, Alabama?
I saw Judge Roy Moore in a Cracker Barrel in Gadsden, Alabama once and after that talked to one of his first girl friends.
She’s still pretty.
Please comment on what I said, not where you think I may live! You are dodging the issue. You are the Preacher, I am only a regular Christian. Now you can comment because you were taught more than I!
I am waiting!
Jacksonville/Gadsden/Piedmont area isn’t that far from Birmingham, where CB lives. You guys could get together for coffee and talk it over.
Honestly, DLG, you have demonstrated no interest in discussion or debate. You have come on here blasting everyone with condemnation and condescension. It gives us very little reason to try to answer your questions or respond to your rants when you act as if you are God’s avenging angel.
Do you have a serious question you would like addressed?
I’ll give him one thing… he ain’t no Brother Jed…
DLG,
If you are a “regular Christian”, Dave Miller is King Kong and David Rogers is a Buddhist Monk.
There is nothing “regular” about you except your hat size. No, that can’t be right either. There ain’t no head that small, unless headhunters got to you and you lived through it. Is that what it is DLG? Did you get caught by headhunters on a mission trip and got your head shrunk? Made your brains all tight and crunchy?
DLG, I heard that if a guy who has had his head shrunk by headhunters will soak it in vinegar and pine-tar it will pop back to normal size. I will be more than glad to help you with that. I am willing to hold your head under in a bucket of vinegar and pine-tar as long as it takes to pop it back up to normal size.
You Alabama folks are interesting.
“You Alabama folks are interesting.”
CB, DLG and Stephen Fox. Quite a blogging triumvirate.
You think we’re interesting; have you ever met the right Reverend Dr. John Killian of the Musings from Maytown Blog??
Mike Bergman July 17, 2010 at 9:09 am
My Bible teaches “All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” No time frame mentioned that I know of! Either you believe the Bible or you do not. The Bible will defend it self.
So your Bible is missing Romans 5:12-14, and 1 Corinthians 15:21-22?
If I were you I’d get a new Bible!
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.
Are you claiming to be a prophet?
Well hang on prophet and get on down here just as fast as your body can run with that little shrunk head. I will gladly “receive” you in. I have plenty of vinegar and pine-tar and several buckets. We will get that head popped out to regular size in no time.
BTW, how much shall my reward be, in dollars and cents, that is.
We dont hate you, DLG. We just think you’re missing a few cards in the ole deck.
DAvid
I am just quoting scripture, like any good preacher would. To my very limited knowledge, John the Baptist was the last prophet.
Is that correct!
Look, sir, if you want to engage in a discussion or have a conversation, I am always willing.
To this point, you have demonstrated little desire for Christian fellowship. You have shown hubris and arrogance as you condemned others for their beliefs.
Is there something you want to discuss, or do you just want to consign us to perdition?
Yes Sir, please explain what the Bible means by the 6th trump and the Antichrist coming and many will be deceived verses the 7th trump when the True Christ will come?
Surly the Bible has only One version, I just want all of you to put your heads together and explain it to me, someone who is just a unlearned regular Christian, Yes sir, Just please explain that to me please. Thank you and may God Bless all that are truly His.
There are so many interpretations of the trumpets, but here’s mine. The seventh trumpet occurs in Rev 11:15 and ushers in the final set of judgments in the tribulation period. Seven bowl judgments remain that usher in the end – the Second Coming of Christ to set up his kingdom here on earth.
Interpreting the book of Revelation is not easy, and we need to realize that disagreement over issues of the end times does not rise to the level of heresy nor does it justify condemnation of those who disagree.
David Miller July 17, 2010 at 7:17 pm
There are so many interpretations of the trumpets.
DLG – Yes sir, that is the problem, too many of man’s interpretations. It is only God’s interpretation that matters and that is what I want you to give me.
David Miller July 17, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Interpreting the book of Revelation is not easy, and we need to realize that disagreement over issues of the end times does not rise to the level of heresy nor does it justify condemnation of those who disagree.
I am not condemning any one. It is God who does that. I am just trying to do as the Holy Spirit directs me. Look around us, the End Times are at hand. Evey one is acting like the days of Noah.
Jesus spent more time teaching about the End Times and false prophets and I do not believe there are MANY interpretations only one correct one and that is the ONE I want you to give me Sir.
Because many of you disagree or do not agree is more like it, that is a problem that Jesus warned us about. False Prophets
I just want someone, surly someone in the SBC can explain about the End Times. Surly with all the cooperative money spent over the last 50 years, someone can explain my question.
Yes Sir, please explain what the Bible means by the 6th trump and the Antichrist coming and many will be deceived verses the 7th trump when the True Christ will come?
If you preach the false rapture and then the false christ (Antichrist) comes first and you are wrong, and many will follow the Antichrist and worship him, then when the True Christ comes at the 7th trump, He will cast them out for accepting the Antichrist. The True Christ will not accept anyone who has worshiped the Antichrist.
So many preachers teach the false rapture and many will be deceived and accept the Antichrist. Just discuss this issue please sir.
I gave you what I believe is the correct interpretation of the passage. I study the Bible and with the illumination of the Spirit, I hope that my interpretation is correct.
The “false rapture” you speak of is, I believe, taught in scripture.
Are you saying that I am a false brother because I interpret Revelation differently than you do? Because I see certain scriptures differently than you, I am not a servant of God?
I’m sorry you feel that way, but believe it or not, you are not my judge. I serve my Lord Jesus Christ and your condemnation is irrelevant. In Christ, there is no condemnation for me!
DLG July 17, 2010 at 12:01 am
“And you are still a bunch of racket jawing false prophets. I do not feel led to send money to an organization that condones false preaching.”
Please forgive me for the above statement made in the flesh to all of those that this does not apply.
I do not know who are HIS and who isn’t. I was just referring to the same group Jesus was when He was speaking of false prophets.
Do you think Jesus taught more than one interpretation? That is all I mean. If you teach what Jesus meant, that is what you are suppose to do. If you do not teach what Jesus said, He said they would be false prophets.
In these times, you cannot afford to teach on the END TIMES.
God has called His Elect to drive home this point in these times.
Yes, there is only one correct interpretation of scripture. But as sinful and weakened human beings, neither you nor I know the proper interpretation of every scripture. Humble interpreters realize that none of us has all knowledge and we respect those who love Jesus yet interpret passages differently than we do.
Your insistence that you alone know the proper interpretation of scripture is staggering and arrogant.
You seem to be asserting that your interpretation is the only correct one. Is that what you are saying, that alone have properly interpreted scripture and that if someone comes to a view different than yours, they are false prophets?
I’m preaching on 1 Corinthians 4 tomorrow. Would you be willing to tell the the one true interpretation of that passage? Tomorrow night I’m in Colossians 3. Could you tell me the one true interpretation of that passage?
I do not need to study the Bible anymore, just ask DLG what the one true interpretation of each passage is. It will save me a lot of time if all I have to is ask you what the one true interpretation of each passage is, rather than labor through studying it all myself.
I’m sorry for being so harsh, but that is the way you are coming across, that you and you alone have the proper interpretation of scriptures.
Cannot afford Not to teach on the End Times.
DLG: I’m barely able to pick up Joe B’mon’s language so I doubt I can learn yours here in the space of 10 days; but here is a wild shot speaking of the End Times.
There is great end time preacher in the novel Serena, who looks up in the sky” like it’s a grey slate gnostic text”
You’ll like him; he Knows the word and toward the end his mockers come to believe he knew something after all.
Steve,
Maybe that is what is wrong with DLG. Maybe Serena got after him with Pemberton’s knife and has driven him to madness.
CB, are you saying you read the novel, or did you just google something up. Maybe we got something to talk about after all.
Anjelina Jolie has gotten the word out she wants to be Serena in the Movie.
Will Billy Bob Thorton play Pemberton? That would be interesting in and of itself.
CB: It looks like you have read the novel, Serena; Is that in fact the case?
I talked to Billy Bob couple years ago in Florence, a theological discussion in fact.
Here’s a stellar review of Serena:
http://community.berea.edu/appalachianheritage/issues/winter2009/Ron%20Rash's%20Serena.pdf
Rash told me Rachel was his favorite character in the book; analogous to the OT character of Exile that was her namesake.
Rash, I’m pretty sure, was a GWebb ’75 classmate of Johnny Hunt.
Trying the link again:
http://community.berea.edu/appalachianheritage/issues/winter2009/Ron%20Rash‘s%20Serena.pdf
Steve,
Before going to NC, I served for twenty years in the Appalachians. Not only have I read Rash, I have seen, lived with and ministered to his “background” material. See what you are missing by refusing to have lunch with me?
But seriously Steve, you should apologize to these folks for the Steinbeck comment. It was out of place completely here and you know it. Or at least I hope you do.
Your insistence that you alone know the proper interpretation of scripture is staggering and arrogant.
It is not my interpertation that is the issue it is Jesus’ interperation that is the issue, and you are correct. God will judge so let’s stop the discussion here and now.
Well we have gone far enough. I have completed my assignment.
I got all you preachers off of talking about football and now to thinking what did Jesus really mean? Am I right? Do I need to rethink my position? Do I have the correct interpretation? What will God say to me when I stand before Him? Did I mislead anyone?
Thank you all for participating in this discussion. I was led to bring this issue to this format. If you took it wrong, then I am truly sorry. But if anything, you got to admit it, we do need to focus on getting it right! There is not much time left!
Good night. God Bless!
DLG,
Will you be at the Bama-SJSU game? If you are there, wear an Auburn T-Shirt with some derogatory comment about Saban’s Money. I will find what remains of you and we can have dinner together and talk about the Day of Judgement.
I mean the Day of Judgement for anyone who lives in Alabama and believes it is wrong for a preacher to talk about football.
I just thought you were a nut, but you really are a blasphemer. Please move to Iowa if you do not pay homage to the glorious sport of football. They don’t have football in Iowa so you can get by with just being a nut.
He’s from Alabama – he’s your problem, CB.
CB, you never commented on the email I sent you.
Dave,
Sorry, I just now am seeing this. I did not get the email. Probably because I have a new email address, because my accountant wife decided to “bundle” everything in our home and office.
Here is my new email address: cbscott5512@gmail.com.
That reminds me. I need to send Steve Fox my new email address so he can send me my monthly newsletter from the John Birch Society. He ws recently elected president you know.
I got something about endtime preachers I’m gonna put up later
Why is it with an abundance of seemingly very knowledgeable and certainly opinionated people the Christians have to watch & listen to “Doctor” Glen Beck take the lead and preach from the Lincoln Memorial steps ( down a few from where Martin Luther spoke ) on August 28th – and as a Mormon he’s not even a member of a Christian church. My point is that isn’t there someone among the ranks who really is as smart as he thinks he is that makes sense and has the ability to lead. If the answer is “NO” then , take it away Glen Beck and the rest can drown theirselves in rhetoric in the blogs and pulpits of two hundred or less member churchs whose voices are barely heard down the block. The people are interested not in a Sunday morning debate on what the scriptures might mean to a few but a real sermon rooted in the Bible mixed with a dose of Americanism that brings us closer to the God fearing patriots that most respect. The answer is not in a test tube and it looks like the offspring of our famous past preachers don’t have either what it takes or the interest since they are able to live comfortably from their parents endeavers. I only sit in the pews but from there what I see happening are churchs that have rebuilt three times in 5 years that preach a solid gospel to a mixed group and Glen Beck getting more attention than one man can handle. You may be dead right – but your still dead in the water. Follow the money!~
I don’t quite get where you’re going there jack, but I hope you and your preacher would take a look at the link in 714 on the BFM 2000 discussion to Marilynne Robinson on Fundamentalism and Calvinism in America.
Stephen Fox on 113 – What you just said is what I’m talking about . A bunch of gobbledegoop that doesn’t interest the average church goer. I have my copies of the BFM 2000 and have read it.
Jack; if this is a bunch of gooblle goop for you then I can’t help you and your preacher.
Maybe Joe Blackmon and CB Scott can help you, or the Tea Parties, but I can’t do much for you:
http://cruciality.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/marilynne-robinson-on-americas-third-great-awakening-i-e-christian-fundamentalism/
That again is my point. This is not about Tea Parties. It’s about having the simple message of Christ on the Cross verbelized to the point we are no longer tareing churchs down for lack of money and the SBC doesn’t cry the blues. I think I’ve explained myself adaquately in the previous. If you don’t get it I can’t say it any clearer. I’m planning on leaving an old traditional stuck in its ways church for a church plant which is built on solid Bible foundation designed to speak the word so that us mere mortals can understand what is being said and can enjoy all kinds of music. This new plant can’t be held back. Not many are going to tell you they are leaving. Beck joked about being called “doctor” with a black Baptist preacher from Dallas who was not only smart but who could be understood.
Al Mohlers’ comment taken from a BPNews article on the “Emerging Church” Quote, ” Embracing the worldview of the postmodern age, he embraces relatism at the cost of clarity in matters of truth and intends to redefine Christanity for the New Age, largely in terms of an eccentric mixture of elements he would take from virtually every theological position and varient” Yes I can translate that but take my word it’s not going to sell to the masses. That I call “test tube sermonising” Again Glen Beck doesn’t talk like that nor the preacher in the new church plant and who’s getting the play. Martin Luther King didn’t talk like that either and I understood every single word.
End Time Preachers: I think CB may have read the novel Serena; at least he seems to know something about Pemberton and the knife fight.
Below is an excerpt from an interview I had with the novelist Ron Rash earlier this year about his endtime preacher in the Novel:
Fox: My Dad was a Baptist preacher. Growing up I was fascinated with all the characters that came through, for two week revivals, January Bible Studies and varieties of fellowship. Lots of colorful stories about the human condition.Your preacher McIntyre in Serena, is not the only preacher in your novels, but maybe the most memorable. An end timer who first time we meet him “looks up at the gray-slate sky as if it were some Gnostic text only he was capable of deciphering. He tipped his black preacher’s hat heavenward, seemingly satisfied at what he had seen.”You’re gallery of misfits make a lot of sport of him during the course of the novel. What’s he about.
Rash: McIntyre kinda represents a fellow, a type of character or preacher we don’t often like; kinda self righteous.But look what happens to him in the novel. The comic characters kinda don’t like him, but after he’s struck mute, he develops this humility that gives him substance; he becomes true. He has this moment of where he has the spiritual insight he’s just been prattlin about. Last thing he says, he looks at the devastated land (where the timber has been clear cut); says I think I’m lookin at the end of the world.Doesn’t volunteer that, he’s asked what he thinks.It’s McIntyre’s moment of truth as a backwoods prophet; and in that moment of humility that hasn’t been recognized before, the most cynical of his detractors, Ross, is amazed and gives him respect.
Steve,
I am impressed. Do you work as a journalist with a news paper or magazine?
I told you earlier that I have read many books. Not all of them are theology or church history books. Ron Rash reminds me of John Steinbeck in some of his writing style. Do you remember the preacher in the “Grapes of Wrath”?
My apologies, but CB brought up the preacher in Steinbeck. I wasn’t using it as license but thought would use Sbeck’s word.
Otherwise you take words out of the old testament like Whore and Bastard.
Steve,
You have put me in the middle of something, that I really did not produce. Yes, I ask you about Steinbeck. Yes, I did say that the writing style of Rash reminded me of Steinbeck. But I did not put before you an invitation to make the rude comment you have made here.
Steve, Rash has written four books if I am not mistaken and Steinbeck has written twice that and more. Of all the quotes you could have used to illustrate their similarities, why would you use that one?
Steve, reading Steinbeck is not equal to reading the OT. Your language comparison is apples and oranges. I think you know that. You owe these guys (and probably some ladies also) a real apology without trying to “share the responsibility of your guilt” with me. I stand guilty for enough in this life, but I am not guilty here.
Do the right thing Steve. Apologize to the administrators of this blog and to the readers who frequent it.
BTW, R. Rash published in English. I don’t believe you have read one of his novels in French. But even if you did, you still owe these people an apology.
RAsh has big following in France, thus third printing in the language there. He went to Netherlands and on separate trip to France earlier this year to do readings.
I read him in English.
Both he and Steinbeck wrote about struggling poor folks, and Rash has done a collection of poems about Textile Mills; but I don’t think Steinbeck is the comparison most appropriate for Rash; more Cormac McCarthy and Flannery O’Connor.
You should do a blog on Rash and I will respond there. Love to pursue it further, but we are honestly in the land of serious thread drift here.
Steve,
I can’t believe you said, “Love to pursue it further, but we are honestly in the land of serious thread drift here.”
Steve, anytime you and I are on “any” thread anywhere, no matter the topic, there is “always” the possibility of “serious thread drift.”
I bet you that if Dave Miller is reading these two comments he is spewing his coffee all over his computer.
Okay it is unfair nobody has shown me where the emoticon options are on this board.
But I will go on record with this
I hope DAve Miller has to spend the better part of his morning cleaning the coffee, donuts, whatever off his computer!!!!
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