Are Interracial Relationships Forbidden in Scripture? A Response to Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church

by Jared Moore on December 2, 2011 · 189 comments

This article was originally posted at my site. Only some of my articles are posted on SBC Voices. If you would like access to all of my articles, you can follow my feed here. You can also connect with me on TwitterFacebook, and Google+.

Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church in Pike County, KY recently voted nine to six in favor of denying church membership to interracial couples.  But, does Scripture teach that interracial relationships are wrong?

The Bible does not diminish one race below another. All humans are fearfully and wonderfully made (Ps. 139:14), which does not mean some humans are more fearfully and more wonderfully made than others. All races of humanity are created in God’s image (Gen. 1:26-28).  Thus, the mixture of various human blood is not prohibited by God. In other words, God doesn’t care if different races intermarry. However, He does care if Christians intermarry with non-Christians.

There are many Scriptures used by those against interracial marriage (such as Genesis 6:2-3; Exodus 34:15-16; Joshua 23:12-13; Judges 3:6-7; 1Kings 11:2; Ezra 9:1-2; Nehemiah 13:23-27). The problem is that all of these Scriptures come from the Old Testament as God commanded Israel to be a nation set apart from other nations. God was concerned about His people worshiping the gods of other nations, not about them marrying persons who were a different race than they were. Every nation or race God commanded the Israelites not to marry worshiped other gods. If God was speaking against interracial marriages, why did Moses marry an Ethiopian woman? His sister even spoke against him, and God smote her with leprosy (Num. 12:1-16).

It seems according to Scripture, God is more concerned with who we don’t marry than who do we marry. In other words, we are free in Christ to marry any Christian person of the opposite sex we choose to covenant together with before God to determinately love until death do us part. We are not free to marry non-Christians. Thus, Christians shouldn’t even date or court non-Christians:

Deuteronomy 7:3-4 – 3You shall not intermarry with them, giving your daughters to their sons or taking their daughters for your sons, 4for they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods. Then the anger of the LORD would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly.

1 Corinthians 7:39 – 39A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

2 Corinthians 6:14-16 – 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In the Old Testament, part of God’s plan for Israel to remain faithful to Him when they entered the Promised Land was the requirement they only marry other worshipers of Yahweh (Deut. 7:3-4). We see similar commands in Scripture when Paul told widows they were free to marry whomever they wished, only in the Lord (1 Cor. 7:39). Paul, in 2 Corinthians, tells Christians they shouldn’t be unequally yoked with unbelievers in anything (2 Cor. 6:14-16). The context is not necessarily speaking about marriage, but marriage would be included. If Christians aren’t to join in business endeavors with unbelievers, surely we shouldn’t marry unbelievers either. Paul’s concern is with professed Christians leaving Christianity.

Finally, if you have married a non-Christian, you have still covenanted together with that person to determinately love him or her until death do you part. To those Christians who may be considering marrying a non-Christian, ask any Christian who has married a non-Christian, and you will hear how difficult it is to not share in your marriage relationship the reason why you live: your relationship with God. We date to enjoy God through Christ. We marry to enjoy God through Christ, but it is impossible to enjoy God through sin.

What are your thoughts?

This article was originally posted at my site. Only some of my articles are posted on SBC Voices. If you would like access to all of my articles, you can follow my feed here. You can also connect with me on TwitterFacebook, and Google+.

1 formeratheist December 2, 2011 at 10:26 am

I’m always saddened when I see such assaults against interracial marriage with God’s word as support for it.

Do these people have the entire Book of Ruth ripped from their Bibles? There we have the marriage of a Jewish man, Boaz, to a Moabite woman, Ruth. Talk about interracial marriage controversies. Just take a look at what God says about the Moabites in Deuteronomy 23:3-6. Yet by the end of the Book of Ruth all of Bethlehem is celebrating this interracial marriage.

As if that is not enough, the child of this wedding, Obed, is the grandfather of King David. Even more shocking is that this interracial marriage is in the lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ! That should be more than enough to shut down any question of interracial relationships, but sadly it does not.

Randy

2 Lydia December 2, 2011 at 3:09 pm

Yes, let’s take a look at the lineage of Jesus! Rahab, Ruth….

3 Jim Pemberton December 2, 2011 at 6:01 pm

Bingo

4 Dave Miller December 2, 2011 at 10:33 am

The good news I saw while reading about this is that the vote at the church was 9-6. That means that there are 9 racists out there in a small church in Kentucky in a place I’ve never heard of.

I hope their breed is dying in the American church, but in the meantime, racists will from time to time rear their ugly heads.

5 Bill Mac December 2, 2011 at 10:46 am

I think if you research it, you might see that fundapendent objections to interracial marriage stems from a cockeyed eschatology. More extreme views of dispensationalism see the mixing of races as a move toward the “one world church”, which of course is either the herald of, or the brainchild of the antichrist, I forget which. Therefore you will often see them opposing anything that smacks of blending, merging, or unification. Remember the objections to the European Union?

Or of course it could simply be racism, but I suspect it is sometimes more complicated than that.

6 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 10:48 am

The challenges that come into the church are endless. If this wasn’t a problem it wouldn’t be mentioned. If joining a church as an interracial couple, what would happen if he were nominated as a deacon or he said he was called to the pastorate or to be a missionary. This only seems to be an issue with the extreme differences of black and white. Personally, I do not care for the idea of interracial marriage of any kind. The strain that comes from within my own race is bad enough, throw in different cultures and foods and in-laws and I am under my bed reciting the Greek alphabet. Some may not be as strained as others, but you have a tremendous strain in the Body of Christ. Is it wrong, no. Is it beneficial, no. How do we handle it, time, and lots of it, even generations. How will it affect our children’s approach to marriage. It just makes things tough.

I have instructed my daughters that you can love anyone. I have instructed them of the pitfalls of interracial marriage because some kids can’t see past their nose. They have no wisdom. I have recently had another race interested in my daughter and wanted me to allow them to do something together. Saying no divides families in the church. This will always be an issue and a struggle in the church. It is much more than just an interracial marriage coming into the church for some of us. I also refuse to justify my comments as not being racial. I don’t really have to say that.

7 Bill Mac December 2, 2011 at 10:54 am

Bruce: Really? There are no benefits to interracial unions? None?

8 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 11:11 am

Bill – I know my stance here does not show open arms to interracial marriage. We were poor and I went through Intermediate and High school with a high rate of blacks and interracial relationships. The ones I am familiar with never started like Boaz and Ruth. I did say that there is nothing biblicall wrong with an interracial relationship. However, the strain within our churches is not a benefit. If forces those of us who want to teach our children to seek relationships that would match their parents into a very difficult situation. It creates a problem and that overshadows benefits. There isn’t anything wrong with wanting to teach the benefits of marrying your own kind either. You can do it without being racial. I hope all of you can see it that way. If you are white and have a white wife then you had a choice. If you are interracally married, you had a choice. I want my choice without being called a racist.

I will have to answer other questions when I return from my hair cut and buying groceries for my wife.

9 Bill Mac December 2, 2011 at 11:37 am

Bruce: I’m trying to be gracious and not start a pile on here, but you must know what “marrying your own kind” sounds like. You seem to be saying having interracial couples in the church causes problems for people, like you, who are teaching their children to marry their own kind (race). Am I reading you wrong?

Being attracted to and marrying someone who is like you, racially, isn’t unusual or wrong. Teaching people to marry only those of your race, well, as kindly as I can say it, I have a hard time seeing that as correct.

10 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 1:44 pm

Bill – Agreed, it never sounds right. I do not disagree with you. Having to say it out loud is the issue. How do you say it? I don’t think we can picture ourselves in a situation either marrying or giving our daughter/son away in an interracial marriage. It cannot be pictured even if we strongly believe it is ok. However, if my daughter decided to marry interraciually I would take the next step in accepting it. My first step is to give them the “best” practice in picking a marriage partner and race isn’t the first thing on my list.

Believe it or not, I have many black and hispanic friends. I was raise among poor blacks for the first 20 years of my life. I am the first to greet and introduce myself to interracial couples that come to our church and invite them to my Sunday School class. Most of them walk into the church with a chip on their shoulder and are very sensative to ANYTHING that they think resembles racism whether it is or not. To this day, I have not seen success and it isn’t because I come across differently to them. We can talk all day long and circle the wagons on this but the issue is one of the most difficult ones to deal with across the board within an existing church. Most of us couldn’t examine our motives as to why we cater so heavily to this issue.

I appreciate you trying to be gracious, that’s what the majority have to do when an interracial couple (black and white) walks into a church today. Are we simply not prepared? Whose job is that? How do we prepare a church to not force being gracious? I’m just speaking from the heart guys. This affects people and is going to be a major hurdle to get over.

BTW, the church in this story was dead wrong in how they dealt with this issue.

11 Mike Bergman December 2, 2011 at 12:40 pm

However, the strain within our churches is not a benefit. If forces those of us who want to teach our children to seek relationships that would match their parents into a very difficult situation. It creates a problem and that overshadows benefits. There isn’t anything wrong with wanting to teach the benefits of marrying your own kind either.

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh… actually I’m not…

As Christians to be worried about marrying outside our “own kind”–whatever that means, outside of the Christian / non-Christian divide–because it might create strain or problems???

No…

People who think like that need to read a good dose of Ephesians, especially chapter 2, and throw in some Galatians 3:28 and John 10, and then repent.

If we are in Christ we are of “one kind,” we are children of Abraham, siblings of Christ no matter our skin color or cultural background or country of origin or whatever–that’s a bottom line Gospel issue.

For a Christian to oppose an interracial marriage between two Christians–that’s a denial of a part of the Gospel…

For a Christian to be uncomfortable with an interracial marriage between two Christians–that’s a discomfort with a part of the Gospel…

12 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 2:06 pm

Mike – You are talking both before and after marriage on the interracial thing. I am simply talking about how I lead my children and how I prefer them to go. The subject we are talking about is not the top of my list of priorities for finding a mate, it is just the subject today. I prefer to promote one thing at a time as my children grow. If they chose another race after my recommendation and explanation it would be their choice and my acceptance thereafter. I am not going to say marry white and if you marry anyone else it will be ok. That makes no sense. My children will have conversations with me as they grow up, and they do. I want them to have success in both the church and everywhere else they go. There is nothing wrong with what I am teaching my children. On the other hand, I feel that many here would prefer me to teach my children to marry outside their own race. That is taking it to the opposite side.

13 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 3:15 pm

There IS something wrong with what you are teaching your children. It is pure fear, hate and racism. You are telling them that if you marry a “black” you can not succeed in the world because some people will find your marriage offensive, therefore marry white so you can do whatever you want. That is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever seen on an SBC board…

14 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 11:45 am

Wait wait wait wait…Interracial marriages are bad because they lead to “problems” in dealing with the other cultures? First off, EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN is a byproduct of other cultures. I personally can trace my genealogy to a half-dozen European nations/cultures. Second off, german, greek, american are NOT races. Different culture does NOT equal different races. I fail to see the problem with having a family who has the JOY of celebrating multiple cultures, be it “american”, greek, japanese, or one of the hundreds of Tribal African cultures (FYI, just like the Tribal American, there is no one single homogenous “culture” there are hundreds, if not thousands).

And allow me to be blunt. I do believe that your “interracial marriages causes problems” is just window dressing on pure unadulterated racism. You dont want your daughter dating “one of them”. More so, you sound like you dont want “one of them races” in your church. Sure you are not the cross burning, sheet wearing racist. But you are a racist non the less. If not, then you wouldn’t try and use different “cultures” as a reason to resist so called “interracial” marriages. Now you probably wont like me saying that, but that is fine. Most closet racists dont like being called out for what they are. They think the “segregation” of the races is fine and dandy, and could not possibly be precieved as wrong. “We stay over here, and ‘that race’ can stay over there.” Again fact that you used the phrase “another race” when saying someone was interested in your daughter only supports your racism. You didnt say “a young man who happens to be….” you said “another race” as if there is something wrong with being another race. Here is a news flash for you buddy. Jesus was a brown skined JEW! Adam and Eve likely were either brown skined or (gasp) BLACK skinned themselves. So the question is, if you shouldnt marry (in your opinion) someone from a different race…Can you worship someone who was born a human of a different race?

15 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 2:23 pm

Smuschany – I did not want to be offensive when I used “one of them”. You are right, that is sounds racist in a culture that has covered up racism with laws and forced the issue upon everyone. I mean by that “all of them” races, not just blacks. We are quick to preach like Billy Sunday against beer, wine and hard liquor but for the over-weight we never say a word. Both create heart disease and physical problems along with the fact that both have a problem with self control and temperance. When it comes to interracial relationships there are problems. My white female neighbor that I grew up with some 40 years ago was a Christian and married a black man. We are still friends and she confided in me and said, “I should have never married out of my own race. Everyone in my family is not accepted in this world, whether at work, home or church. It is just different and I would tell anyone to stay to their own.” I do not say that lightly, but it is the truth. “These people” have a very difficult time and it is even more difficult to assimilate them into the existing church. I would “prefer” to encourage everyone within my own family to stay within their own race, if not, we take the next step.

16 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 12:12 pm

One more thing “Bruce”. Since you are so opposed to the intermixing of cultures, what do you do on the missions field? If you went to say, sub-Saharan Africa to spread the gospel with the people there; would you eat their foods, dress in their clothing, live as they live, speak in their tongue? Or would you dress as an american, eat like an american, live as an american, speak as an american? Tell me, which way of reaching the people do you think will win the most converts? And if such cultural assimilation in the missions field is okay, then why not at home?

And dare i say, because you cant answer that question with a straight face, that shows why your position on interracial marriage is not pragmatism or practical, but pure racism at its heart.

17 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 2:35 pm

Smuschany – Let me clarify. My first step is to focus on “what is best” for a couple in our society. You can counsel someone to marry interracial if you want but they will have more problems later on in this world. I would recommend to them just what I recommend to my daughter/son, but the choice is theirs.

I cannot put myself in the place of a missionary because God has not called me to that nor has He given me grace to do it. However, I would be able to do it just like anyone else if God gave the grace. I would be able to learn the language too. Not a good scenario for me.

To another comment you made about all of us being mixed interracially, I agree. Like I said above, “How do we handle it, time, and lots of it, even generations?” This cannot be solved in just a comment stream. It is real and it is in our churches, society and homes.

18 Zack December 2, 2011 at 2:57 pm

Bruce:

If you don’t mind, can you explain explicitly how you define/determine if someone is a different race? I don’t mean to be flippant at all. I’m honestly curious.

19 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 3:39 pm

Zack – I happen to be listed as a Caucasian. I am Irish, German and Indian by heritage. I did not choose any of them but do not hate any of them either. In fact, I hate no race and can say that with sincerity. Personally, I would that all races remain pure. Not for the same reason as skin-heads but because of the heritage, health and family. You just can’t say that openly. I understand that men do not set that very high on their standard and choose to intermarry. In God’s eyes, that is not an issue but it isn’t a command to intermarry either. There are many races out there that have not inner married and are identified easily. If the race is pure I would say that they need to remain pure or as pure as they can. Besides marrying within race, I would also say that marrying within the same religion, social, financial and economical status is “best”, not “only”.

I am talking about “best” and many want to force the mix issue first. I do not understand that. My children understand my heart in this matter. They see no prejudice in my explanation. Maybe there is value in innocence.

To answer your question, I determine race by the purity of the race. I pursue staying with one as close to my race as possible. Is it easy? Can God answer prayer? It depends on your faith.

20 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 3:11 pm

Who give a rats hairy rear end what the rest of society things? Most of society things that devoting your life to Christ Jesus is silly, stupid, and problematic. Should we not instruct our children to follow Christ Jesus because somewhere down the line they WILL face people who are offended by that choice? ABSOLUTELY NOT! As such, your disapproval of interracial marriage because they might face “problems” in society is just as ridiculous! There are always going to be people who hate others for stupid reasons. That does not mean we should bow down to their hatred and let THEM feel good so we can have an easy life. There are churches in this country where if you are black you ARE NOT WELCOME! Should we allow this type of thing to take place? Or better yet should we make our church look the same so as to not offend that other church? HECK NO! There is nothing morally, ethically, or biblically wrong with interracial marriage, and as such there is nothing to be afraid of.

And IF the “fear” of being hated by other racists, keeps you in your own racist bonds, then that is your fault, not societies.

21 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 3:49 pm

Smuschany – I’m talking about how I raise my children. It can be done that way, too. As for your response, I see that you have a preconceived idea of everyone who views interracial marriage differently for their family. In the church I have and will continue to work with everyone equally. They had to do that in Pauls day as well. Condemning me the way you think I am is just as wrong as the way you think I condemn interracial marriage. The only difference is the skin color and a misconception.

22 Blake December 2, 2011 at 3:57 pm

Not to invalidate any of what you said, Smuschany, but I think you’re approach with Bruce H would be better served by following the sage advice of Jay Smooth (caution: a minimal amount of swearing is involved): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

23 Zack December 2, 2011 at 5:26 pm

Bruce:

Perhaps my question was unclear, and for that I apologize. Let me try to state it another way:

When an individual comes to you, how do you determine that he or she is of a different race? What is the objective, defining characteristic(s) that you use to discern race?

I’m asking because you speak of purity of race, so I’m curious as to what elements of purity you are seeking to preserve.

24 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 5:56 pm

Zack – The answer is that I do not get that detailed in determining race. I dona’t really understand the desire to do that much investigation.

I try not to get detailed with what I instruct my children. Keep in mind; I have stated here that I instruct MY children in PRIVACY, to be clear. How to determine may have many ways. I did not get into that much detail when I chose a wife. I simply met her, met her parents and found out her heritage in the process of discussing the bible along with many other subjects. I didn’t ask her to marry me on the first date because she was white. There were certain things I was looking for in a wife just like everyone else. One of the things was that she was white. Saying it openly in today’s society and church is a death wish apparently. Just as I chose white and someone chooses another it is the same choice in my book. I just chose white and am telling everyone here. It seems that most here have chosen white for a completely other reason and I am the only one who can’t do it because I admit it differently.

Preserving may not have been the best word, however, I have seen and heard that each time we mix our DNA some, not all, seem to become weaker physically and are subject to disease. No one is doing any research on this as far as I know but I have seen some who have bone problems and other ailments that possibly come from this issue. I have even discussed this with my doctor and she agrees. If you or others have valid proof otherwise please provide it.

I see that we are very race sensitive here. That tells me that we still have a long way to go. Believe me, black people can tell when white people are over doing it. That is just as offensive. I do have black friends who tell me this.

25 Zack December 2, 2011 at 6:12 pm

Bruce:

“The answer is that I do not get that detailed in determining race. I dona’t [sic] really understand the desire to do that much investigation”

Again, perhaps I’m over-complicating things. Please forgive me, and let me try again:

You are explaining that, for you personally, it is more desirable for you and for your family not to enter into interracial marriage.

I’m not looking for why you believe this. You’ve explained that several times in several ways throughout this thread.

What I’m trying to ask is how you, personally, in the privacy of your own thoughts, (which we all agree are your own personal thoughts that you’re not trying to impose on anyone in this conversation), determine a person’s race.

For example: Your daughter brings home a boy she wants to date. When you meet that boy, how do you determine what his race is?

Again, I’m not asking why. I’m not asking you to defend it. I’m trying to understand your position.

26 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 6:53 pm

Zack – Couldn’t figure how to answer below your answer. Hope you find this.

Where I live there are mainly hispanic, black, oriental, indian and a few others. The skin would be obvious and so would the accent. Facial design would also identify a race, too. The obvious indicators have been my personal guide on what level to begin the relationship. As I began to discuss matters further and meet relatives it would give further indication of the background and race. As I have said, I am Irish, German and Indian. That would be my focus when beginning a relationship that would develop further. My children and family are good and the relationship we have is great. We are all Christians and love one another. Is it because of the way I chose race? No. It is because of the grace of God and he didn’t call me a racist because of my wish list. Hope that helps answer your question. It just can’t and shouldn’t be something to be defended.

27 cb scott December 2, 2011 at 7:11 pm

So Bruce,

Can I take it that you are saying the Black, Red, and Yellow are OK if they “stay in their place” because, after all, they “can’t help it because they were not born white” like you?

28 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:44 am

cb – If I didn’t say it like you said it I didn’t mean it that way. What you said is offensive and I would never say that. I have said before that I made up my mind before I ever started dating what type of woman I would marry. Color was one of the requirements I chose at that time. Whatever color you or any other person on this stream married was subconsciously chosen and, according to this stream, would be just as racist as I am.

29 Cal December 2, 2011 at 3:00 pm

Bruce,
What about adopting a child that is a different color? Should we refrain from that because it might be difficult or because some racist in the church might be offended?

30 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 3:16 pm

That would strictly be up to the individual couple adopting. We all were adopted into God’s family, however, when we get to heaven there will be neither male nor female which indicates we will all be the same. That is not being used to support my position on teaching my children either.

The “motive” for chosing any race of child to adopt would be the issue. We cannot know the motive and I usually do not take a person’s word for it nor would I ask. It will eventually show itself on down the road. My response will be the same, no matter what another couple does.

31 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm

Let me get Cal’s question more direct and precise. If YOU Bruce were called by God to adopt a child, would YOU Bruce bring a child from another “race” into your home and raise him/her as your own?

32 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 3:59 pm

If God called me to adopt a child my normal drive would be to seek a white child. God would provide grace for me to desire to chose a child of another color/race and I would do it. If I didn’t have a desire to adopt a child of color it wouldn’t have any effect on whether or not I am racist. The majority of adopted children go to same race couples and they are not racist. It isn’t a racist issue as you have accused me of. It is normal for me to gravitate the way I have explained throughout this comment stream.

33 Christiane December 2, 2011 at 4:39 pm

When we are able to see ‘a child’,
instead of ‘a child of another race’,

then we have come into the place in our hearts where we need to be in order to be called to adopt any child of God.

34 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:30 am

Christine – I was asked a personal question about if I were called by God to adopt a child, would I bring another child from another “race” into my home and I answered it truthfully. I am not made like you claim you are. I would naturally pursue a white child without even thinking about a black child or any other child. The majority of people do. To call someone racist because of that is not right. We have a phobia of racism and I refuse to allow others to pressure me into thinking otherwise.

35 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:46 am

Actually Bruce, if/when God calls me to adopt children, I plan on taking in a child(ren) who specifically are NOT “white”. Unlike you, I have no problem with not only raising “one of them”, but having the joy of exploring another culture with my child. I have friends who right now are trying to adopt a child from an African country. I would dare say that MOST people who adopt (or become foster parents) dont care what color the child is, or what their “race” is, or even what their culture is. In the adoption circles more people demand infants over older children, rather than demand “white” children over “other” children. But that is another issue all together.

36 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 2:01 am

Smuschany,

You stated, “In the adoption circles more people demand infants over older children, rather than demand “white” children over “other” children. But that is another issue all together.”

You are right, that is another issue all together and a sad one indeed. 800,000 children entered foster care in 2010. Most of these children are not infants. Many of them need homes, but they will be “passed over” because it seems that the vogue thing to do now is to leave the borders of this nation and adopt infants from another place.

I am not saying to adopt infants from another nation is wrong. I do ask why do so many say “God lead me to adopt an infant from…..” Yet, there are so many older children right here who need families.

37 Stephen M Young II December 6, 2011 at 12:17 pm

“I have recently had another race interested in my daughter and wanted me to allow them to do something together. ”

Looks like it’s going to be rough sailing as long as soul bearing the imprint of the image of God is seen as “another race.”

I know you wrote a lot there, but you did even call him a person.

38 Joe Blackmon December 2, 2011 at 10:51 am

I’m pretty sure most of the children in that church adress the adult men as “Uncle Dad”.

39 Greg Buchanan December 2, 2011 at 10:54 am

WHEN ARE CHRISTIANS GOING TO QUIT BEING STUPID AND BUYING INTO THE FALSE IDEA THAT THERE ARE RACES TO BEGIN WITH??? IT IS THE BIGGEST AND MOST SUCCESSFUL STRAW-MAN IN HISTORY!!!

This is a great response, but Jared you and most others on this blog still continue to use terms like “race” and “racism” when they are irrelevant.

You got it right when you said: “God’s plan for Israel to remain faithful to Him when they entered the Promised Land was the requirement they only marry other worshipers of Yahweh (Deut. 7:3-4). ”

We have GOT to stop using such terminology and CHANGE the debate. We take fuel from the “racists” and “race-baiters” alike when we REFUSE to agree to the premise of their arguments, namely that: 1) there are different HUMAN races; 2) the so-called races are unequal.

We only damage ourselves by continuing to argue and wrestle with the biggest straw men ever created.

Just so no one forgets, the idea of the separate races based on skin color and facial structure was non other than that eminent theologian Charles Darwin. His theories (aka straw-men) have enabled generations of discrimination.

It’s time to burn the straw men!

40 formeratheist December 2, 2011 at 11:24 am

A hearty “Amen!” and a virtual high five to you man. I love this verse:

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

Some of the biggest problems in the early church came from language like “our kind” and “their kind” as the Jews had issues with the Gentiles and vice versa. Paul cuts to the bone especially with the word “Scythian” – a brutal, barbaric race of marauders and murderers that he says clearly, under the blood of Christ as the family of God is “our kind.”

It’s like you said Greg – in Christ, race is a thing of the past.

Randy

41 Lydia December 2, 2011 at 3:20 pm

Thank YOU! There are no “races”. Please let us burn that straw man once and for all.

Also, a lot of my friends are adopting African children. And it is a joy to us all. Gee wonder how that church would react to that?

But here is the really big change we are going to see. There are so many “mixed” marriages (from all sorts of populations intermarrying) now that that we are starting to see a real change in the makeup of our population as this plays out. We can hopefully get rid of those race “boxes” on the census forms because nobody will know what “race” they are!

As for me and my house, there is ONE “race”.

42 Lydia December 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm

BTW: I think Christians should take the lead on burning that straw man as per Galatians 3

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

43 Chase December 2, 2011 at 4:56 pm

I think some in this thread may be reading too much into Galatians 3. I won’t get into the issue of whether races exist, but if they do, scripture does not here abrogate them; for if Galatians indeed abrogates all distinction between races, then it does likewise to all distinction between male and female and between slave and master (cf. Eph. 5:22-25; 6:5-9). Paul is referring only to Christians and their equality in salvation.

44 cb scott December 2, 2011 at 11:03 am

Obviously Thomas Dixon is still alive and doing well in some places.

45 TT December 2, 2011 at 11:05 am

They’re free will baptists, they’re free to will what they want.

46 Bob Cleveland December 2, 2011 at 11:33 am

Bruce H, do you then contend that, wherever there are cultural differences, people should not marry?

I was raised in a typical nuclear family. Dad worked, Mom stayed home. Every day when I walked home from school for lunch, Mom was there with a meal prepared for me. We had a “Father Knows Best” household, if ever there was one in real life.

Peg’s Dad died a few months before she was born. Her Mom raised her and her 2 sisters and cared for her own Father, while working 2 jobs to support them. When I met Peg, our family home was a 2000′ ranch house in a beautiful subdivision, whereas she lived in a farmhouse in the country, with no indoor plumbing.

We couldn’t have been more culturally different, but we’ve been married 52 years now.

The cultural barriers you speak of exist only so long as folks like you hold onto them, whatever color they may be.

47 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 2:46 pm

Bob – Maybe you have not read the rest of my heart on this above. I see men here reading into my first comments without asking questions to see if there is a different story like yours that may justify why someone would think the way I do. I have experienced a different situation. I would not simply use your example to change my mind on what I believe. For Christians, we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, however, some have married a lost person and they got saved. I really don’t think most people really understand racism. I just choose to tell my children to pursue a different path because of the troubles I have seen. Otherwise, they will have difficulty.

48 Stephen M Young II December 6, 2011 at 12:19 pm

There is a difference in telling someone to count the cost and telling them to “pursue a different path”

49 Andy Miller December 2, 2011 at 11:40 am

“And here is a great and sad irony. The very situation of separation and suspicion and distrust and dislike that is brought about (among other things) by the fear of intermarriage is used to justify the opposition to intermarriage. ‘It will make life hard for the couple and hard for the kids (they’ll be called half-breeds).’ Catch-22. It’s like the army being defeated because there aren’t enough troops, and the troops won’t sign up because the army is being defeated. Oppose interracial marriage, and you will help create a situation of racial disrespect. And then, since there is a situation of disrespect, it will be prudent to avoid interracial marriage.” (John Piper, “Bloodlines”, p. 213-14).

I think Piper is exactly right on this. There is a tendency to oppose interracial marriage because it’s not “prudent”, but such a defense never changes the fact that you feel one person–based on skin color–is unfit to marry another person. I am glad that Jesus didn’t stick to his “kind” or none of us Gentiles would be in God’s family (Eph. 2). If we really believe that the Kingdom matters more than the present worldly order, then how can we continue to define our churches upon skin color and culturally-defined barriers?

And I do mean “we”. I am far from perfect on this issue. The more I think about it, the more I see my own prejudices, inconsistencies, and hypocrisy. We all, as Christians, have a lot of work to do on this issue.

50 Dave Miller December 2, 2011 at 12:44 pm

Wise comment, sir. You must come from a good family.

51 Andy Miller December 2, 2011 at 1:30 pm

That must be it.

52 Rolando Castro December 2, 2011 at 11:45 am

I’m amazed of how these kind of people uses Scripture to mask their racism. Why is that everytime they talk about God’s people they are actually referring to white people as opposed to non whites who are always considered “the others”? I’m embarrassed that a church with the “baptist” word in its name does such an anti Christian thing in the 21st century. God have mercy of them and let them see His light to take them out of their darkness

53 Josh C December 2, 2011 at 12:01 pm

I’m glad Jesus didn’t require his Jewish followers to go through the difficulties or inconvenience of crossing cultural barriers ever.

54 Christiane December 2, 2011 at 12:01 pm

” . . . recently voted nine to six in favor of denying church membership to interracial couples. . . ”

red light word for me is ‘voted’ . . .

majority rule isn’t always moral, ethical, or Christian

wouldn’t it make more sense for the membership to have consensus rather than majority rule ? The concept of ‘consensus’ among a Christian body is more in tune with scripture . . . and I am wondering what might have happened had the entire Church membership been allowed to meet and to work out a policy that represented their mutual gifts of discernment, rather than a ‘popularity’ contest among a few ‘in leadership’ ?
There is a way of ‘acclamation among a whole group of believers that represents the ‘Spirit’ that unites them in Christ. If they could have used ‘consensus’, then likely the outcome would have been more in tune with that Church as a part of the whole universal Body of Christ.

55 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 12:06 pm

Now in regards to this church. First it should be known that the majority of the church did not vote. Whether it was because they knew their position sounded like racism and did not want that to show, or if they just did not want to offend anyone party in the church, only they and God can tell.

Second, the current pastor was dead set against this, and from what I read in the FoxNews article on the subject, if the church does not repeal the decision, he is thinking of leaving that church.

Third, the NAFWB (or whatever they are called) who are meeting later this month, plans on taking this issue up, with the intention of dis-fellowshiping with this church if their actions are not reversed.

Fourth, the former pastor of this church, who is still a member, was the leading figure behind this action. Thus it sounds like there is some kind of division between him and the current pastor.

All in all it is rather a sad pittiful situation. Unfortunately, I am willing to bet that a far too large amount of churches in the SBC have either a written or unwritten rule regarding interracial couples, or have people who think such a thing would be a good idea. But of course they are not “racists”…no no no…they are just practical!

56 Thom Hunter December 2, 2011 at 12:31 pm

I’ve been in several Southern Baptist churches where this issue came up only because a Christian young woman and a Christian young man who happened to be of differing skin color met in the church and fell in love and believed they had fallen in love with the one person God wanted them to be one with. As it should be.

It’s ridiculous for any church to think of what a good thing it is to seek diversity and create programs to reach out to the community around them, regardless of color, and then think that the children who grow up believing they should love each other, regardless of color, should not “love” each other. At what point does the church suddenly say, “well, wait a minute, we didn’t mean THAT.”

My niece married a Mexican. My daughter dated a very nice black man for a while. They’re all welcome to sit with me in my Southern Baptist church in Oklahoma at any time. I realize there may be some around us who, because of their own upbringing, may say an extra prayer, but the Bible is clearly on my side.

57 Bob Cleveland December 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

Incidentally, the whole church did vote. A Louisville news source reports that the church usually has “about 40″ in worship services, and that a number of people had abstained from the vote.

Even that ought to tell us something.

58 Dr. James Willingham December 2, 2011 at 12:53 pm

Interestingly enough, when I did my project for the Doctor of Ministry at SEBTS, I never dreamed that we were doing it to help folks in the future. I completed the project, “Christian Love & Race Relations,” in ’75-’76. The director of the project (this, when the semianry was noted as “the most liberal seminary in the Southern Baptist Convention”) said to me, “You ought to have known better than to select a controversial topic like this (Christian love applied to racial problems is “controversial?”). If they fire you, I will be right there behind the church, supporting them.” I did the project without getting fired by making an agreement with the deacons, “No references to the race issue in the morning sermons (Sunday mornings I preached 10 sermons on agape love in I Cors.12:31b-14:1a. In other words, the pericope of th chapter 13 on love), and you can give the 10 lectures in Black History on Sunday evenings and test those who want to be tested before and after the project on the issue of racism and what effects the project might have on them, one way of the other.”

I got the project done, and over the opposition of my professor in the form of nit-picking my writing of the project I got it accepted by threatening the seminary with the fact that I would not go to the Board of Trustees with a complaint. On the contrary, I would go to the floor of the Southern Baptist Convention and raise one of the biggest stinks they had ever seen. Fast forward to the first decade of the new millenium. The son of one of the deacons had married a Black lady, and he had two sons. The deacon’s wife told me that she took her Black grandsons on a senior trip with her friends in the church. She said, “Mr. Willingham, my grandsons were so well-behaved, and my friends told me about it.” She just beamed. That white family, a rather large one, bought the oldest Black grandson a car to help him in his first year in a local community college. He was just astounded.

I never thought anything about getting whites to marry blacks or to advise them against such actions. I might well tell people, “Well, you know that even if you marry someone who is close to you in your thinking, outlook, etc., you are going to have problems. And if you marry someone from another cultural background, you will have more problems. Are you ready for such difficulties?” I never advised my children whom to marry or not to marry, except they knew that they ought to marry a believer. Even then you will have problems. And just because someone says and acts somewhat like a believer, that does not mean that they are…in the same way it is true for us. No one ever told me whom to marry, and I never told my children. We have an interracial couple who are members of our church and other interracial couples who attend. We also have African American couples and their children who are members along with members from China, Korea, Japan, Guinea(sp?) and Kenya in Africa, a member from Ukraine, and I don’t where all our members are from.

There is only one race as far as I am concerned, the human race. Cultural differences can be overcome, amalgamated and transformed into a higher and better culture. No one race or culture is superior to another. Each group/culture has contributions to make to life and civilization, and we ignore them to our own peril. We are, I think, hope, and pray, on the verge of a great transformation of life on earth, a great awakening in which the whole of the earth will be converted to some degree to the Christian view and approach to life. Look at how the leaven of the Christian Faith finally produced a change in the populaces of the Roman Empire and brought to an end the gladiatorial combats in the arenas, an end to the killing of men by other men or animals as a pleasure for the mobs in the stadiums. Sooner or later, the Gospel must bring to an end the feelings of superiority/inferiority based on color, cultural, or other differences.

59 Greg Alford December 2, 2011 at 5:07 pm

There are just two things I want to say about all this:

1) I’m glad that I’m not Bruce…

2) I’m glad that this is not a Calvinist Baptist Church…

Grace for the Journey,

60 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 5:16 pm

But I’m Calvinist!

61 Chase December 2, 2011 at 5:43 pm

Calvin on Gal. 2:11-14,

See here a wicked madness: for by that means there was a division made in the Church. For (as it is said in another place) the wall was broken down when our Lord Jesus Christ was appointed to be a light from God, not only for the Jews, but also for the salvation of the whole world. Wherefore if it behooved those that had erst been separated and estranged from the Church, to be called into one flock: then doth Peter disannul God’s grace, whereas yet notwithstanding we know there is not a more precious thing than the union of the Church. Therefore he that varieth from it, cannot by any means be excused. But behold, the fault of Peter was, that he brake this bond of concord by separating the Jews from the Gentiles, not withstanding that all belonged to the body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and were the very children of God. Again they had all one selfsame head, and one selfsame redeemer: and therefore his deed was a diminishing of God’s house, forsomuch as we be all gathered together in his name, and do become his household folk, even till we be gathered up into the heritage of heaven.

62 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 6:11 pm

Calvin is correct. He was talking about the church and how we are to respond to all existing within the church. I agree 100%.

Hopefully, we have the liberty to instruct our children in many areas of life. Personally, I would instruct my children to buy a Chevrolet, but if they bought another brand we will still fellowship. On the other hand, the church cannot dictate that I must have an interracial marriage in my family, that interracial marriage is superior and the best way to go. It isn’t there, but it seems that is the underlying point in everyone’s comment. You just have to take what you have after the fact and never give advice or instruction from your past experience or wisdom.

63 Chase December 2, 2011 at 7:23 pm

The point is that within the Church there are no brands, so to speak. We have no business allowing secular race nonsense to inform how we view other Christians. To do so is to create unnecessary distinction where God has wrought unification.

64 Chase December 2, 2011 at 7:25 pm

In my last sentence, division would be a better word than distinction, I think.

65 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 7:33 pm

Chase – There may be no brands to you, but many approach the obvious and treat them as if there were no brands. It can be done. I chose to teach my children that there is a difference and they should know how to handle it.

66 Chase December 2, 2011 at 7:41 pm

Yes, we must handle racial differences by viewing people of other races as fellow bearers of God’s image, and if they are Christians, then as our brethren. Is there any biblical reason for drawing a line (even if in the sand) at marriage? All I have seen so far is an appeal to pragmatism, but perhaps I missed something in one of your earlier comments.

67 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 7:55 pm

Chase – It’s simple and private. No one would ever think that I have that in mind. Some people that think they are Christian do not know what I am thinking either, but I tell them about Jesus over and over.

68 Chase December 2, 2011 at 8:12 pm

I’m not sure I’m understanding you. Can you biblically substantiate your view of interracial marriage?

69 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:04 am

Chase – I cannot substantiate my view from a biblical standpoint, neither can I substantiate the view of other’s biblical standpoint. Your comment #38 is correct in that as Christians we are equal, however, not all of our desires or decisions are going to have a bible verse for support. I am judged in this stream based upon my statement about teaching my children to focus their attention on their own race when choosing a mate and that is unacceptable and racist to many here. I am selective on many things and one of them happens to be the race I choose to marry but that seems to be racist. I also have to allow my children to make their own decision without any guidance or instruction. That does not make sense. The bible does not say I should or shouldn’t intermarry. It seems to me that I have a choice to instruct my children in the way to go, but not here.

70 Ryan Abernathy December 2, 2011 at 7:01 pm

You sir can call yourself a Calvinist, but YOU are a racist and are propagating a racist philosophy. I pray for your repentance. I pray for your children. I pray for your wife and for anyone else who has to sit under your teaching or authority.

There is NO biblical support for your position. The very fact that you would use the term “own kind” reveals the depth of depravity in your own heart. I find it disgusting that in a day and time that has seen the beginning of healing in the racial divides that have existed in this country for centuries that you could even think like that much less believe that your viewpoint is in line with Scripture.

To be very blunt, your view disgusts me. The fact that you think it’s ok to think that way and to train your children in that way breaks my heart. I cringe at the reality that someone might stumble across this blog and read your comments and associate them with any thing related to Christ.

Cannot put into words how angry this thread has made me…

71 cb scott December 2, 2011 at 7:19 pm

Ryan,

You stated, “Cannot put into words how angry this thread has made me…”

Actually, I think you did put it into words, unless you would like to just haul off and give Ole Bruce a good cussin’

72 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 7:29 pm

Ryan – I wish you had read my entire script. Seems we Baptist split when one choses to instruct their own children to seek their on race. Categorizing someone is easy when all of our hot buttons are set on racism when we hear he faintest comment. I suggest you consider that some people can live in a world of race and chose to stay within their own without hating another race.

73 Matt Svoboda December 3, 2011 at 12:25 am

Bruce,

I pray that you will listen to this sermon below preached by Thabiti Anyabwile at Together for the Gospel in 2008. It addresses the issue of race from a biblical perspective.

http://sgm.edgeboss.net/download/sgm/events/t4g08/t4g08-session2.mp3

74 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:06 am

Matt – I have sent it to my wife’s computer. My speakers don’t work. Thanks, I’ll listen to it.

75 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:08 am

Matt – I listened to the 40 minute sermon. I agree with him totally. He never mentioned that we should or shouldn’t intermarry. He just talked about the race of Adam being one race and racism should not be in our life. I am good with that. The pastor was black and said he was married to a black woman. I am white and married to a white woman. On this stream I have no freedom to teach that kind of marriage to my children because it is racist. I am suppose to teach my children everything about how to work, get an education, tithe, love everyone but never suggest, recommend, request or instruct them about their heritage and encourage them in that direction because that is racist. I am becoming weary of this subject because everyone wants me to keep my mouth shut about what I have experienced to be ideal.

76 Bob Hadley December 2, 2011 at 6:31 pm

My latest post deals with choosing God or Good… seems to me anytime we choose ANYTHING other than God and His perfect will and way, we make the wrong choice, falling short of God’s glory which the Bible says is sin. Might even apply to our criticism of other’s blog posts! Seems to me there are a number of definitions that can be applied to being, “unequally yoked together”… ie… economic, social, cultural, even philosophical… I mean… a Republican marrying a Democrat can create problems… certainly an Arminian and calvinist marrying could be disastrous! Imagine how confused those kids would be! JK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen… seeking God and His perfect will is where we all ought to seek to keep our focus… anything less is sin and good can be bad if it keeps us from the BEST… and that is where God is going to outshine us all!

Grateful to be in His Grip!

><>”

77 Stan McCullars December 2, 2011 at 7:31 pm

To oppose so-called interracial marriage is to side with the devil. There is no excuse for such opposition whatsoever.

78 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 7:38 pm

I’m heading to a walk through nativity. Will return with answers as necessary.

My comments have been only about teaching my family about what is best for them. If you want me to simply say nothing about what race my children choose and call me a racist for doing so you have a “fire, aim” approach to this issue. You have been influenced by the world because that is exactly how they would answer me on this.

79 Bruce H December 2, 2011 at 7:52 pm

The question was: Are Interracial Relationships Forbidden in Scripture?

ANSWER: No!

80 Bill Mac December 2, 2011 at 8:49 pm

Bruce: Honest question. Would you also instruct your children to only have relationships with people within their own educational and socio-economic classes? If yes, for the same reasons? If no, why are education and socio-economic status different than skin color?

Do you think it would have been better if the races had kept to themselves and not begun to intermarry?

A word to everyone. I think it is fair to say that Bruce is espousing a minority position here. I think he has been a pretty good sport about coming back here and taking abuse. I think we can disagree, even strongly, without our righteous indignation causing us to become abusive. I for one would like to be able to convince Bruce that he is very wrong about this issue, but I’m sure I won’t be able to do this by insulting him.

81 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:01 am

Bill – First, thanks for your final statement.

The educational and socio-economic classes are there, no doubt. When I am instructed to train up a child in the way HE should go, I should know my child and be focused on my child enough to know if he/she would be able to fit within certain classes. I know the Peter Principle isn’t biblical but we could certainly take a lesson from its truth. I find a proverb that would tell us a little about what you asked. “Do not exalt yourself in the presence of the king, And do not stand in the place of the great; For [it is] better that he say to you, “Come up here,” Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen.” (Proverbs 25:6,7) It would be best to teach our children that there is a place for everyone and they should recognize their place and live their lives from what they are capable of. It would save them some embarrassment down the road, too.

That is a tough second question. We know the Jews had instructions to remain pure. They were also given the Law and Gentiles were not given the Law. Since the Gentiles intermarried that would be a tricky question to answer. My preference would certainly be that we were able to remain pure in all our races. It is just not so due to sin. Since we have no proof that sin isn’t the agent of intermarriage and we have but Adam and Eve with no children before the fall, it is most difficult to answer. I would also prefer that no one ever got a divorce, was raped or murdered and everyone was a Christian. It is just not so. Most of our conversation about that would be speculative in nature from this point on. Hope that makes sense. If you have clear scripture to object my answer I am more than willing to read it.

82 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 2:20 am

Bruce H.,

Before someone states that you have equated interracial marriage to divorce, rape, and murder, I would like to ask you to clarify your statement if you would.

Also, how do you justify this positional statement?

“My preference would certainly be that we were able to remain pure in all our races. It is just not so due to sin. Since we have no proof that sin isn’t the agent of intermarriage and we have but Adam and Eve with no children before the fall, it is most difficult to answer.”

83 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:35 am

cb – I was not calling interracial marriage a sin if that is what you are concerned with. If Adam had never sinned there would be no problem with the issue of interracial marriage. The problem is sin (the knowledge of good and evil and not knowing how to deal with it because we are dead and corrupt). Adam and Eve had no children before the fall. Had they been able to overcome the temptation and produce offspring, the world would be completely different today. We could imagine just about anything and it not be sinful or racist. The problem with sin is that it produces fear. That fear is part of the problem with an interracial marriage and produces racism in some people. As Christians, we have the power to overcome that fear in Jesus Christ. I can say I am not racist because of Him, but not on this stream. Mixing man’s fallen nature and interracial marriage creates questions with no believable answers. You can judge me but I have no right to say what I just said. All we see is words, we cannot see the heart of the individuals who chose to intermarry. It takes time and much of it to get through this issue. All I have committed to is that I will, not force, but instruct my kids from my experience why they should stay within their race. It isn’t complicated as many try to make it so it fits their way of thinking. I can think too.

84 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 4:09 am

“All we see is words, we cannot see the heart of the individuals who chose to intermarry.”

Bruce, you say we cannot see the heart of individuals who chose to intermarry. It is also true that we cannot see the heart of individuals who chose to marry within their race either.

Seeing the heart of an individual does not seem to be the issue here. The issue here seems to be what you have revealed to be in your heart.

From your comments it does seem that you would desire for all races to “stay in their place.”

You did state, “My preference would certainly be that we were able to remain pure in all our races.”

You did say, “It is just not so due to sin.” Within the context of your comment, it would seem that you are saying interracial marriage is due to sin.

BTW, the problem with sin is not that it “produces fear” as you have stated here. The problem with sin is that sin is rebellion against God.

85 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 8:11 am

cb – You have been able to take many things I have been asked for an answer and used them against me. Your understanding of how you see my answers has been bent toward the racist issue and you have put words in my mouth in other places. It seems now that the questions were not for clarity but for condemnation only as you want to see it. Which way do you lean interracial marriage or noninterracial marriage? Be specific.

Your final statement to me in correcting a definition of sin I set forth is correct but so is mine. If sin didn’t produce fear, Adam and Eve wouldn’t have had to run and hide from God? “So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” Genesis 3:10

It appears that I have been tagged as a racist here and there is only one way to see it, your way. That is a type of “racist mind-set”, too.

86 Bill Mac December 3, 2011 at 9:25 am

Bruce: Like CB, I’m trying to parse out your sin and intermarriage statement. Either you are saying that intermarriage is sin (which you deny), or it is the result of sin, which I’m guessing you mean is an outcome of our sinful nature.

Perhaps you can explain exactly what harm you think you are keeping your children from? From finger pointing and gossip from racists? What other harm is there for interracial couples, other than a stigma from people whose opinions don’t count anyway?

I’m sure you are getting this anyway, but I’ve gotta tell you I can’t see any way to positively spin your comment about wanting all the races to stay pure.

This isn’t my area of science, but I’m pretty sure that it was random intermarriage that produced the races in the first place.

87 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 10:12 am

Bruce,

The subject of this post is racism. The comment thread is a dialogue about racism. No one has taken the statements you have made and “bent them toward the racist issue” as you say.

The truth is, you have made some racist comments. Some of us thought you were making those statements to make a point about the ills of racism. Some of us thought maybe you made a couple of thoughtless statements and wanted you to correct them which would remove suspicion that was growing with every comment you have made in this thread.

Now you try to flip this by saying, “It seems now that the questions were not for clarity but for condemnation only as you want to see it.”

I don’t think that is true. I don’t think anyone wanted to condemn you as a racist. I will admit that some came on hard after you continued to make racist statements. Nonetheless, I think, in general, that most of the people here had hoped you would see the error in what you have declared and made corrections.

You did not do that. Rather, you try to flip the situation and condemn those who have challenged your error as twisting your words and condemning you.

Bruce, no one has twisted your words. You just don’t like your words being held up for scrutiny. In reality, no one has condemned you Bruce. You have done that all on your own.

88 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 11:21 am

cb – Nice try. The truth is, God chooses and I can’t. Everyone can read my heart as racist if I choose to encourage and teach my children to do what I did. I think the gate of racism has swung to far open in what many here believe. A person can be exclusive in every area of their lives but race even in the privacy of their own home because that’s defined as racism today. No, I will continue my stance as I have stated. Call it racism if you will but my choice has a freedom for me to instruct and recommend.

89 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 11:35 am

Bruce,

There was no “nice try” here. To make light of this at this point is, at best, just silly on your part. Now, you make another confusing statement:

“The truth is, God chooses and I can’t.” What does that mean in this context?

In addition you state, “Everyone can read my heart as racist if I choose to encourage and teach my children to do what I did.”

Bruce, again I remind you, no one is making an attempt to “read your heart.” We are reading the statements you have placed on a blog comment thread and coming to the only conclusion that, thus far, is possible from a face value reading. That conclusion is, you have unhealthy views related to races of people other than your own. Nothing else can be made of your original comments, nor the comments you have made in defense thereof.

90 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 11:55 am

cb – When I say that I teach my children to stay with their race, that is a racist statement and has no other alternative definition or explanation here. When I say God chooses and I can’t, it means just that. No one gets hair-lipped when God chooses those to be saved and others are left to their own but if Bruce says he chooses to instruct and recommend to his children to do as he did it is a horrible sin. I don’t see where others here can actually say that we need to give everyone’s children, mine included, the option to choose whoever they want to marry as long as they are a Christian. I am not going to be that broad on the race issue. Anyone should be able to suggest, recommend, request, teach or encourage their children to do something the parent found to be ideal without an outsider pointing an accusing finger and calling them a racist for it. I was encouraged by a man once to marry an Oriental woman because they knew how to treat a man. In this stream he would be a racist for telling me about Orientals and how good they were. I am not buying the accusations here. They are unfounded.

91 Stan McCullars December 3, 2011 at 12:03 pm

Bruce,
Anyone should be able to suggest, recommend, request, teach or encourage their children to do something the parent found to be ideal without an outsider pointing an accusing finger and calling them a racist for it.

So if a parent has found it ideal to molest their children you think that parent should be able to teach their children to do the same without interference from any outsiders?

92 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 12:15 pm

Bruce,

Now you are building strawmen arguments to substantiate that which is outside the parameters of orthodox Christianity.

To use the doctrine of election or the admonitions of a man with worldly persuasions to provide planks for the faulty platform on which you stand related to your misguided beliefs and teachings of subliminal racism to your children is nothing less that self-induced spiritual blindness on your part.

Obviously, you are comfortable with the views you hold. We can only pray for brokenness to overtake you that you may see the reality of what you have and are doing to continue to perpetrate division and a lack of biblical truth within your own family and since, as you have proclaimed in other threads, you are a teacher in your local church, the household of faith.

Obviously, the journey thus far has been hard for you and, obviously, it will continue to be so unless you see the reality of your self-deception.

93 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 12:46 pm

Give it up, Stan. Worldly wisdom and inappropriate examples is your reasoning here. There are many reasons to suggest to a child which is ideal. You just see my statement as sinful and it isn’t. You are a living example like I am to your children by marrying a white and beautiful woman. They will tend to follow your example as my children will mine. If my children come to me and ask me why I would recommend them marry a white person I would tell them that I chose to and it is the most wonderful decision I ever made for a mate. From your standpoint, I should say that I would have married a black person and been just as happy and successful. You just don’t know and cannot say it truthfully. You need to really meditate on this subject and come up with a better plan.

94 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 12:54 pm

cb – Everyone on this thread has chosen whom they would marry. No one has come on and told me that they have married outside their race yet. Whoever you chose meant that you had to exclude others. That is what is coming across this thread. Everyone else can choose but me. I chose my wife based upon my committment early in life. It was not racially motivated as in hate toward other races but a desire to prevent the issues that exist with interracial marriages. Those marriages have to be handled with kid gloves if you are not familiar with it. I can say that God honored my committment by giving me a wife that has the same mix I have. That was the desire of my heart. You are placing it in the bad racial category, not me.

95 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:00 pm

Bruce…First off, I am not married, and am not anywhere near finding God’s partner for me. Second, you can not help who God puts you with. The difference with you and me is, I would have no problems if God gives me a beautiful woman whose ancestors are from Africa, or Japan, or Russia, or anywhere else. Whom God sends me as a wife will be my wife, and to the great pit of fire with whether her “race” matches mine or not. Third, FYI, my aunt was not born an American and is not a naturalized citizen. She is Bahamian. My cousins, have dual citizenship by nature of this. But I am willing to bet you, that you could not tell she is not “one of us”. Who knows, maybe your daughter might meet one of my cousins, fall in love, and opps! He is only HALF American! What a sight that would be!

96 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:02 pm

PS…the only “problems” that exist in interracial marriages are because of racists like you who continue to perpetuate the idea that there is a difference between the races, and that each race must be kept “pure”.

97 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:09 pm

Smuschany – I refuse to keep denying your created accusations. No Comment.

98 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:19 pm

Ok…Fine…But lets review…

You ADMIT there is no scriptural prohibitions regarding interracial marriages. Indeed, there are several cases where such a marriage is a key part of God’s plan.

You CLEARLY dont know or understand the difference between race and culture. TO the point where you count Germans and Greeks in the same boat as Africans and Japanese. And yet, you say there is no difference in your eyes between say a Minnesotan and a Alabaman. Those cultures are completely different. And dare I say, if you are so worried about “problems” a interracial couple might have, those two would have a lot harder time than say a black man from Missouri, and a white woman from Missouri.

Finally, you say you want people to keep pure in their races. Yet God created humanity with out “races”. He created ONE man and ONE woman, that is Adam and Eve, and they are the parents of all of humanity. And again, FYI, Adam and Eve were NOT white. That means that you and I, are farther away from God’s perfect creation of humans, then our african brothers and sisters. Oh and on that point, Jesus was not white either. Are you willing to agree on that as well?

99 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:20 pm

Opps…responded under the wrong post…this is suppose to go with Bruces December 3, 2011 at 1:09 pm post. Stupid long threads..

100 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:47 pm

Smuschany – No problem. Let’s keep it simple. If it is wrong to give instruction about race it should be wrong in who we choose for a mate. Of course, we could blame God or give Him credit for the choice and that would make it right. My position on interracial marriages has not changed. There is nothing mentioned in the Bible that says we should stay within our own race. Again, there is nothing in the Bible that says we cannot instruct our children as I have suggested I instruct mine. However, somehow I am wrong for suggesting what I want to suggest because of how our society in America has viewed racisim, but not biblically. It does not specifically say I cannot say what I say. But I am the one in the wrong because what I say shows my heart to be corrupt in the race matter. That is the wrong assessment.

101 Mark December 2, 2011 at 8:59 pm

I agree that people should only marry within their race.

…………..
And that race is the human race. :)

Bruce, I’m curious. Are you a kinist?

102 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:08 am

Mark – I had to look up kinist online. It did not give me a definition. Can you clarify?

When you say, “And that race is the human race.” are you saying that people should interracial marry rather than stay within their own race? If they have an option to stay within their own race and do so, is that racist? If they stay within their own race are they racist if they recommend and teach their children to do what they did?

103 Job December 2, 2011 at 9:19 pm

First off, we Christians should not be deceived. Racism is merely a sin just like any other. Yet we focus on racism in the church and not other sins merely because the world focuses on it. And the world focuses on racism because the world rejects the idea of sin. To the world, sin does not exist. Only “social issues” exist, and social ills – in their mind – can be eliminated through education, government action and similar. So while the world gives a disproportionate emphasis on racism because it has rejected God’s revelation, Christians should endeavor to put racism – a failure to love your neighbor as yourself – in its proper context.

Second, concerning the estimable Bruce H., he often refers to his personal feelings and comfort zone. I would propose that the Sermon on the Mount and the writings of Paul command us to do what makes us uncomfortable. When our flesh opposes the Bible, we are to war against the flesh, not accommodate to it. Being an accommodationist to the sin of racism: how is that different from extending “tolerance” (according to the world) to homosexuality or other forms of fornication? To be more clear: if the problems that the world has with interracial marriage is an excuse for avoiding the practice, then should the problems that the world has with our declaring homosexuality to be an abomination cause us to stop declaring it to be so? Another example: the world takes great offense when we declare that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. So, should Bruce H. teach his daughters that in order to avoid condemnation from the world, that they should tell Jews, Catholics, Hindus, Mormons, Muslims and Harry Potter witches that they will go to heaven so long as they faithfully adhere to the tenets of their religions? If we are going to accommodate the world’s attitude towards one sin, what is the theological justification for not doing the same to others?

104 Smuschany December 2, 2011 at 10:50 pm

Bruce you used an example of the accent of speech as evidence of a person’s race. If that is the case than a “white” guy from Minnesota and a “white” guy from Alabama are about as different racially as you can get? Not everyone speaks in perfect english like you do. So I guess Alabama boys and Minnesota boys are out for your daughters then?

I am sorry but you just make me sick. You claim it is for you and your family, but what you are peddling is racism. It is not okay for you or your family. It is not okay for anyone who wants to look God straight in the face and say “I was not racist”. If someone were to say something like “Incest is ok for just me and my family, it may not be ok for others” would be stupid. Incest is incest! RACISM IS RACISM!

I have a news flash for you, if someone’s marriage is blessed by God, if they are in a godly relationship, it does not matter WHAT their races are, God will see them though ANY problems that they may face from outside sources. What you are telling your children, is that the color of someone’s skin is more powerful than a relationship with God at it’s center. And that is just as bad as the pure racism you are teaching your children. Again, if you think “racism” is just KKK or NBP groups you are wrong. Racism is thinking there is any reason at all that the “races” should remain pure.

Oh and btw, for the second time, one’s nationality is NOT A RACE! Germans are NOT a different race from Americans. Italians are not a different race from Spanish. The fact that you think so only cements your racist motives, only in reality your xenophobia (which IMO is just racism in another packaging).

105 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:54 am

Smuschany – Your analysis with the accents tell me that you are stretching to prove me wrong. I think you know what I meant about accents. It seems that you simply have a set mind and want to argue. The anger you express in your comment stream tells me that it has to be your way or no way. I know righteous anger and you do not express it. Your anger is self-centered and I am your target because I do not wholly believe like you. That kind of anger is wrong. You will discover the difference one day.

I have stated what I do within my family. It is based upon my personal decision that I made before I ever dated. I have answered your and others questions with honesty. I have not made the statements as you suggest. My intent is pure. Those are words that come to your mind when you have heard certain “catch phrases” other racist have made that are similar and now you apply to me. Had you met me and walked with me you would never think for one second that I am what you accuse me of.

Correcting my English is not new to me. I struggled with the English language since 10th grade. I have struggled all my life with English and face that almost daily. Please forgive my inability to communicate with you. I would hope that your superior education would be able to translate my mistakes to fit your understanding. I’m not kidding. I only request that you try to see if someone could actually instruct their children a certain way without it being racist in your mind. Consider the thought of protecting the black race as much as it would be protecting the white race if that works for you. It is not one sided but has an interest in others, too. I don’t think you can get past that, but you could try.

106 Christiane December 3, 2011 at 2:53 am

Hi BRUCE H.

I don’t understand this statement: “My preference would certainly be that we were able to remain pure in all our races.”

what on Earth is a ‘pure race’ ?????

107 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 8:47 am

We were talking about interracial marriage in this stream. Everyone wants to grill me on so many details that do not relate. Whatever you want to call it is fine with me. Just use it in you list of other things to justify being open hearted to everyone out there. I simply choose to instruct my children to do what I did because it has worked best for me and them. But I am wrong in everyone’s eyes. I simply will not open myself or my children up to what you think is right by not saying anything to my kids

108 Stan McCullars December 3, 2011 at 9:02 am

Opposing so-called interracial marriage is nothing short of hating brothers and sisters in Christ. Hating brothers and sisters in Christ is evidence that someone is outside of the faith.

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. (1Jn 2:9 NIV)

109 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 11:08 am

Stan – It doesn’t fit. I remain convinced that I have every freedom to influence my children to marry as I did. My choice not to marry into another race is not racism as you accuse. You happen to be wrong and your scripture does not fit. I do not hate anyone in a interracial marriage.

110 Stan McCullars December 3, 2011 at 11:13 am

If you oppose it you are a hateful man. Period. Your issue is not with me. It is with God.

111 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 11:25 am

I oppose it for the one’s God has given to me for a heritage. There will be a manifold of teachings I will give to my children as they grow, asking them to seek what I have sought will be one of them.

112 Stan McCullars December 3, 2011 at 11:50 am

God says in 1 Peter 2 that believers’ ethnicity is a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession. That is the believers’ race and nationality.

To teach that people should only marry within certain groups as defined by people rather than by God is to deny the truth. It is to call unclean what God has called cleaned.

If you want to teach such doctrine of demons to your children and to others do everyone a favor and don’t claim to be a Christian doing so. Formally renounce your faith or renounce your sin and turn to Christ, the Lord of one holy nation.

113 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 11:57 am

Stan – You are off the charts on this.

114 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 1:49 pm

Actually Bruce, Stan is not “off the charts on this.” The Apostle Peter was once (Acts 10-11) and now you are.

Peter finally got it right after a few misfires, with a vision for God and a chastisement from his Ole Buddy, Paul. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

115 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:59 pm

cb – I cannot understand the examples you and others keep giving. They are correct but they are “after the fact”. I keep telling you that my approach is “before” it becomes an issue, not after. I know how to handle it when it has been solidified. I am talking about guiding, recommending, instructing and so on so we do not have to get into how we should respond “after the fact”. Give me some prevention, not how to put the fire out.

116 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 2:22 pm

Bruce,

Peter’s problem with one’s ethnic heritage and the ability to receive the gospel of Christ was not “after the fact.” It was “before the fact.” Peter was born into a bigoted culture. God spoke to him related to this flaw in his nature before he sent him to preach to the Italians.

117 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:29 pm

cb – Please relate it to interracial marrige. It does not fit.

118 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 3:07 pm

Bruce,

I am sorry. I presupposed something here without explanation.

Peter’s story does relate here. In Peter’s cultural and religious heritage there were only two “races” of people.

Race 1. The Hebrews – God’s people.
Race 2. Everybody else- Not God’s people.

Therefore Peter’s story is applicable here.

119 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:15 pm

cb – Even you chose a white wife over any other. Why is your interpretation of my comments wrong for doing the same and teaching them?

120 Nathan December 3, 2011 at 9:40 am

Please forgive an intrusion from an outsider. I only came across this site in reading articles about the KY situation.

Kudos to you Bruce for his patience in hanging in there in the face of cricicism and responding thoughtfully in stating your position. I am not a religious person, a Deist if anything so I cannot speak in terms of sin. I do however think that good vs. evil and right vs, wrong are concepts that we can all agree on. It seems to me Bruce that if you accept racism as bad or evil then you would acknowledge that any adverse consequences for interracial couples would be the result of racism on the part of others. The alternative sould seem to be believing that people of different races are su fundamentally different that they would face problems in that regard. If that is the case, then are you not supporting evil, or at the very least enabling it by your position? I can understand your desire to protect your children, but at what cost, i.e. teaching them that evil is to be accepted, not fought against. From an outsider’s perspective, that seems contrary to all that I have heard about Christianity. Have you truly questioned yourself and asked how much of your view is about your children’s happiness and how much is about your own comfort? If one of your children did decide to marry outside their race and they were happy, despite your misgivings, would you be satisfied and happy?

You state that part of your heritage is Indian. Whether Indian as in India or Native American, neither is considered Caucasian or ‘White’ by any racial or other definition so I am unclear as to what racial ‘purity’ you are trying to maintain. That train’s already left the station. If you were to take one of the new genetic tests, you might be surprised to see what other secrets are lurking in your DNA closet :-) I’m not sure what fears you have but to be frank, human beings are no different from plants or animals when it comes to genetics in that put bluntly, hybrid vigor probably conveys greater survival value than purebred isolation. Your chances of getting the other half of a damaging gene are probably IMO greater within a more genetically similar population. You speak of protecting family, but family is based on shared values, like religion, honesty, faithfulness, thrift etc. Those are values that cut across racial and ethnic lines. In short, I think your concerns are mostly mistaken. I will not say that they are a mask for racism. We are all conscious of race, however we define it. We all grew up with attitudes and ideas of what is right or normal. The world is changing though and we all have a choice of whether we will be on the wrong side of history or the right one. Take Care.

121 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:07 pm

Nathan – Thanks for chiming in. Your thought provolking comment is well taken. The simplicity of my statement and request is that my children do what everyone else on the stream has done, marry within your race. No one has claimed otherwise, so I have to assume everyone has married white, black, hispanic and so on. When others here say that everyone else can marry whom they want, regarding race, and I say I want to instruct my children more clearly from my perspective, not theirs, I’m not given an option but called racist, I have a problem with that. It is not a racist issue with me. Others are welcome to allow their children to choose without any parental wisdom or discussion. I choose differently without hate.

122 Smuschany December 3, 2011 at 1:13 pm

The problem is, it IS hate! When you say things like, your children wont succeed in life if they marry outside their “race”, THAT IS HATE! When you say things like, you want to keep racial “purity”, THAT IS HATE! Again you are locked into the mistaken notion that Racism is only the likes of the KKK and Nazis. But that is not the case, racism can be a LOT more subtle than that. Like, a father telling his children that it would be best for them to marry within their own race. No matter how you slice it, or excuse it, that is racism, and that is sinful.

123 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:25 pm

Smuschany – Since you are the expert here. List the “percentages” of successful interracial marriages and prove me wrong. Give me statistics from the SBC that show interracial Pastor’s success rates compared to everyone else. Prove to me that interracial marriages are fully accepted in society and churches and show me the numbers. The SBS he big on numbers whether we want to admit it or not. I have only wanted to protect my children from the hurt that comes from true racism within the SBC. Everyone talks a good game from the top but get in the pew and see what I have seen, experienced and delt with. You may still stick with your belief but you will encourage interracial relationships that come with undeserved hardship while you and your white wife condemn the racist and call people racist that are not. Remember, those you encouraged are still suffering while you try to convince the true racist otherwise and you think you are suffering with them and you are not. They truly suffer from your counsel.

124 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:27 pm

Not: “The SBS he” but ” The SBC is”

125 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 2:18 pm

Bruce,

I don’t think that even Ed Stetzer keeps statistics of successful pastors within the SBC who are part of an interracial marriage. It may be possible that you are the first person who has ever asked for such data in our long history.

Nonetheless, I will give you a personal testimony now that you ask for such things.

I am of Irish decent, reared by an Irish Soldier of Fortune whose only religious persuasion was, “He who has the guns makes the rules.”

By the amazing grace of God I became a follower of Christ. Later I married a pure, blue-blooded Southern Baptist girl who is of Cherokee decent almost exclusively.

By God’s good grace, our ministry has been estimated by many to be successful by various standards within the SBC.

I know our marriage has been successful and we have reared a few children and are in the process of continuing to rear more (not our own), some of various ethnic backgrounds, of which I am not totally sure.

Nonetheless, the ones we have reared to adulthood have done well by recognizable standards within Baptistic Christian and American cultures.

Some things my wife and I have had to make sure of though, due to our own personal ethnic heritages (Irish and American Indian). We have had to make sure our children stayed away from whiskey and edged weapons.

You see, with our combined heritages (Irish and Indian) it would possibly be a blemish on our family if they got drunk on Irish whiskey and started scalpin’ our neighbors or the wayward Baptist deacons in our church.

126 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 1:34 pm

Bruce,

Now that Nathan has “chimed in” and also presented this disclaimer, “I am not a religious person, a Deist if anything so I cannot speak in terms of sin,” I think it appropriate to bring a paraphrase of the words of Paul to this conversation from 1 Corinthians 5:

“It is actually reported among you that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind that seems even evident to a person who states he is not a religious person, a Deist if anything…”

Bruce, why do you continue to hold on to this faulty ideology when even those who confess to be outside the faith see it so plainly?

127 Robert I masters December 3, 2011 at 1:42 pm

I understand Bruce H ….ultimately He is saying the same thing that Danny Akin is saying about Alcohol. It is his preference that his children not marry interracial.
It is the wise counsel argument!
CB why are you trying to bind his conscience…..that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

128 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 1:51 pm

Because he is of the same worldly mindset as those on this stream who think you cannot give your daughters instruction in this area. I do not condemn Nathan, but his view is the same liberal view of the world. I am not going to open myself or family to “anything goes”. I wish that was respected in lieu of condemned.

129 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 2:30 pm

Bruce,

You may believe in the inerrancy of the Scripture. I don’t know. But are you sure you adhere to the sufficiency of the Scripture?
You seem to embrace, as absolutes, ideologies that are beyond the teachings of Scripture as if they are equal with God’s Word.
Such things as you embrace related to racial purity are not evident in the Bible. Frankly, these ideologies you embrace so vehemently are condemned in the New Testament consistently and are outside the walls of orthodox Christianity.

130 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:47 pm

cb – As I have mentioned before, racism is not at the top of my list of priorities. It is the subject of this comment stream. I am only speaking of this topic as an inset of my overall training of my children. It amounts to about 1% of all that I teach my children. My example teaches about the same amout to my children, like yours. It is only part of my instruction. It is not written on a Confederate Flag. I wish we had balance here. I must not understand the comment stream and how it works within the moral system we are suppose to have.

131 Dr. James Willingham December 3, 2011 at 11:51 am

Prejudice is an emotional issue, based on misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and missed opportunities for understanding. To judge a person because to the color of his or her skin, or the physical condition of an individual, or the economic class in which the person is found, is a folly beyond words to describe. Consider how our Lord was poor. Any time you misjudge some one on the basis of his or her economic or social status, you misjudge the Lord. Consider how my other was judged as one with a scarlet letter hung about her neck; the church which she joined, her children who joined, the ministers (4) she contributed, and they wouldn’t even let her work in the nursery. That church would also not let accept an American Indian into membership at that time.(and had I known it, I would have never joined that church…and how wrong I would have been…as later a pastor had an America Indian preach a revival (a grad. of Southwestern Seminary, no less) and a Black man, an engineer, no less, would become the chairman of deacons. I would point out that with all of its flaws and faults that church supposedly led the whole Southern Baptist Convention by putting more boys and girls into the ministry and mission fields of the Southern Baptist Convention than any other church. Now the church no longer exists (it joined with another church and they adopted a new name). When I went off to college to study for the ministry, there were approximately 25 going off to school somewhere to study for the ministry/mission fields. Six of us went 600 miles to the same college in Texas. Learning and changing is the challenge and becoming Christ-like is no easy task. Even the gentlemen with the problem of prejudice will find that the Lord has a day coming for them in which they will have to change their view on things that are right.

I remember as a child how the land owners children were treated better in school, etc., than were those whose families were sharecroppers or poor. I also remember kids throwing rocks at my afflicted uncle (St. Vitus dance) and use to cry in frustration. All of that changed. God’s wheels grind exceedingly small in the matters of injustice and prejudice.

I remember when the mayor of Nimmons sent word to a farmer who had hired some blacks to help out on his farm as he could not get any workers. The word was to get rid of the Blacks or some folks would show up with shot guns. When one considers how they were treated in the old South, it is a wonder to find how many great Christian believers God raised up among the African Americans. It is a wonder to realize that a major British Historian of the stature of Arnold Toynbee would suggest that the renewal of western civilization might well come through the African Americans. And then we have the fear and the prejudice. Fear cause people to do many things that uttterly misrepresent the cause of Christ and themselves. That is why I pray for a Third Great Awakening, the answer to our problems and the start of so many more.

132 Dave Miller December 3, 2011 at 2:29 pm

I’ve been involved in other things and not really been a part of this. To be honest, some of this makes me uncomfortable.

I know, from long involvement with him, that Bruce is a good man. But I have to disagree with him here.

God created Adam and Eve. Of course we should “marry within our kind.” Human beings. To say that somehow blacks or Asians or any other racial makeup is not within our kind is contrary to the intent of creation.

And absolutely, we should only marry within “our type.” Christians. If my daughter marries a person of color (is that still the general term?) who serves Jesus, that will be fine. If she marries a WASP who does not love the Lord, that is contrary to God’s Word.

So, we should marry within our race – the human race. And we should marry within our kind – Christians.

Any stricture other than that is giving in to human hate and is contrary to the purposes of God.

133 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 2:39 pm

I do not disagree with you at all Dave. You are absolutely correct and so are most of the other responses here. It seems that I cannot give instruction within my own family privately to focus “first” on what I have experienced as being the ideal approach to a marriage as a first and best approach. I cannot accept the broad stroke of racial acceptance without guidelines within the privacy of my own family and my own responsibility. Thank you for your comment but this will remain as non-racial with me.

134 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:04 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen – We are beating a dead horse here. I hear where everyone is coming from. Much of what you say is right and good. I talked to my girls last night about the comments here and how 100% of you disagree with me on what I have said about privately discussing the race issue with them. One daughter said that she understood and one disagreed with me. I simply told them that the decision was theirs and I would accept whom ever they chose. Right after that the one who disagreed with me began to ask questions as to why I would want them to choose the same race as their mother. I simply said, “What do you think?” She told me that she thought it was for her good. I told her that was my heart but it was still her decision. We talked about that the rest of the way home and it was a pricless conversation. I will see what the final decision will be. Funny how the race issue opens up a childs thinking about marriage and opens up avenues into teaching marriage principles of scripture. But none of you would understand that.

135 Stan McCullars December 3, 2011 at 3:10 pm

You marriage “principles” have nothing whatsoever to do with Scripture. You should remember that teachers will be judged more strictly. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

136 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:21 pm

Stan – Teachers will be judged more strictly. That goes both ways, too. Stricter for the good and stricter for the bad. You see only bad here.

137 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:43 pm

Thanks for your wisdom, cb.

138 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 3:24 pm

Bruce,

You say, ” But none of you would understand that.”

What is it that you are saying here? Are you saying none of us would understand teaching “marriage principles” from Scripture to our children?

If that is the case, maybe you need to stand down on that one. if that is not the case, maybe you need to hone up on how to communicate what you do mean before you put it on a blog comment thread.

Nonetheless, you are probably right. This horse is well lathered and saddle sore. I pray your girls marry according to the will of the Father. One thing though, tell them to stay away from Irish Mercs. They are hard to break from bad habits. :-)

139 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 3:49 pm

Thanks for your wisdom, cb.

I only want to be able to tell my kids what I have experienced. When I set the standard for my life it worked fine. I had minimal problems and minimal outside concerns. I did marry 10 years younger than myself. It was ok for Abraham but not me in many cases. People have their opinions.

140 cb scott December 3, 2011 at 3:56 pm

Don’t feel bad about the age thing.

When I got married, I married way beyond my “class” and a million miles beyond my looks. It was not really hard for me to win her heart though. I just made sure all her other suiters systematically disappeared. :-)

141 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm

Agreed.

142 Bill Mac December 3, 2011 at 3:56 pm

Bruce: I’ll leave you with one more thing. No one disputes anyone’s right to marry whom they choose, within the bounds of scripture. No one disputes your right to advise your children.

I would encourage you, however, to closely examine the reason for the advice you are giving your children, to only marry within their own race. I think all of us can think of some superficially plausible reasons for cautioning someone regarding interracial relationships. But the days in which those cautions are applicable are fast, thankfully, becoming a memory. Your statements that you wish the races had kept to themselves (something which extends beyond your family) indicates, to everyone but you, that there is some underlying racism that you are neglecting to acknowledge. I applaud your desire to guide your children in their relationship choices. I fear that the advice itself is bad, and may instill a racist seed within your children that you and they may well regret in the future. Just something to think about.

143 Bruce H December 3, 2011 at 4:17 pm

Bill – I do appreaciate your approach and recognize your wisdom. I will take it into consideration and look closely at my motives. I want to be right, but most of all I want my decisions Christ magnified. I wish we didn’t have such strong differences on this issue. I am glad we sparked the irons here. Thanks.

144 Nathan December 4, 2011 at 10:25 am

Bruce, I sympathize with your situation. Most of us do not want to be labeled. Certainly, racism (thank goodness) is today viewed as a negative characteristic by many people. Indeed, we have reached a point where even many true racists (those who dislike people based solely on race) feel compelled to deny it in public and perhaps even to themselves. Please note that I am not saying that this fits you. For better or worse, society has pretty much settled on what defines racism – call it PC, liberal or whatever. Part of that definition involves opposing interracial relationships. Increasingly, rationales that were acceptable in the past, e.g. ‘what about the children?, ‘they will face more problems’, ‘the Bible says’ etc. are viewed as illegitimate at best and at worst, attempts at covering up more sinister true feelings. Sadly, from your POV, you will be labeled as something you find offensive – that’s just reality. While I strongly disagree with your position, I admire your courage in defending it with honesty and courtesy. I sympathize because I believe that you are sincere and want the best for your family as God has given you the light to see it.

I do find it odd that you say you don’t want your daughters to marry someone of another race and then say, “… this will remain as non-racial with me.” That’s seems a bit like saying I refuse to fly, but it has nothing to do with leaving the ground. I think that perhaps you are deluding yourself because you do not want to deal with the full implication of your views. To admit that one may harbor some degree of racism is no worse than admitting the possibility of any other flaw/sin. It would be unusual to have grown up in this society or indeed as a human being, without some degree of it. The greater error, IMO is to believe oneself immune, especially while flirting so closely with the subject as in making advice decisions based on race.

I think that we all need to recognize and constantly question and challenge our own attitudes. I sometimes find myself irritated by changes like the English/Spanish labels in the grocery and I recognize how easy it is for such thoughts to morph into resentments and prejudice. We often fear change and retreating into tribalism is too often the response.

While it is easy to be dispirited by situations such as the one in Kentucky, I am old enough to see a lot of hopeful progress. No one was lynched, or as far as we know even threatened. The majority of the church membership did not (publicly at least) support the resolution. A father who probably took a lot of private flak, stood up for his daughter. The vast majority of people condemned prejudice. Those should be givens, but let’s be honest, they haven’t always been.

I do feel that perhaps I have intruded here and I hope that everyone will forgive my long winded blathering. Again, I apologize for any offense my comments may have given. It has been an interesting and enlightening discussion. To be quite honest, in the past I have been somewhat skeptical of churches transforming their views on race. Here, I find many people sincerely trying to understand and follow Christ’s message of brotherhood. My view of God my differ from yours, but I think we can agree on the value of that message. BTW, cb scott, I looked up your reference online (the drive with my E-Sword crashed) – I will choose to see myself in your paraphrase as a Gentile (NASB) rather than a pagan (NIV) or shudder, a heathen (Douay-Rheims) ÷)

Merry Christmas to all, and if I may be forgiven for a somewhat secular reference via Dickens, God bless us everyone.

145 Bruce H December 4, 2011 at 4:05 pm

Nathan – Thank you for your kindness through the written word. I reread my first comment this morning and am ashamed of how it was expressed. I apologize to you and others on this stream. I understand how the tone of it would have created this long line of interesting and sometimes harsh comments. I fail the test when it comes to presenting my thoughts softly in the English language. I wish I had used the humbleness of your composition. With that, I’ll try to use more :-) in the future when commenting.

My convictions have not changed regarding the instruction of my family. It is private, not public and that is my mistake here. One thing I did notice about the comment stream was that it is similar to the gospel; it is offensive to state your convictions with conviction. When I offer the salvation of Jesus Christ to someone, I am really offending them, or should be. By offering Jesus as the only way to heaven I am saying that your way is wrong and the right way is the way of Jesus Christ even if I do not use those words, and I don’t. I believe the tolerance that is being presented in the world is basically creating in the hearts of men a tolerance of this gospel. You may be able to understand that.

Your second paragraph indicates that I have made a dual statement; “not wanting my children to interracially marry” and “this will remain non-racial to me” (paraphrased). The Bible we Christians use has God stating that He elected us from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and it says that “… Whoever desires (wills), let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17). One says God chooses me and the other says I can choose Him if I desire.” Two separate ideas, yet, in Christendom (with God) there is no separation of thought. I love the interracial married people the same as everyone else on this stream and I express separation privately in my family with the same love in heart and mind. I do not have the capacity to describe this in detail but it is something we face in every situation. Race is a sensitive subject that is most difficult to discuss if you differ, and women being submissive is another. We will face these kinds of issues as long as there are those who cross an invisible line that causes us to take a second look.

Had my path in life been different, if I didn’t experience what I have experienced and if I didn’t continue to see things that validate and support my stance I would be convinced that I should “come around”. I never was prejudice or biased toward others in any way because I was the one the whites looked down upon because of my status in life. Quick supporting story: On Western Day (Cowboy day) at school (Jr. High) when the rodeo came to town we would all dress up like cowboys. I was “not” a cowboy and it would take money that we didn’t have to buy a cowboy shirt for one day. Well, mom borrowed one from a friend of hers for me to wear to school. The white kids grouped up behind me in second period and one of the girls came up to me and asked me to raise my left arm. I did and she pulls my shirt forward on the side. She went back to inform them of her findings and half the class was snickering. I didn’t find out that it was a girl’s shirt until the next class. These kinds of events humbled me throughout my life. To think that God elected me from the foundation of the world was the best therapy I could have. As my life was molded by those events I began to set standards for my life that were different and for different reasons. Due to other events and experiences, I chose to marry a white girl and I wanted her to have the same mix; Irish, German and Indian, as I did. Interestingly enough, the girl I chose had that mix and I found out after we had established the relationship. I think God honored my request, but many may not.

Thanks for stopping by. Appreciated your comments. Best to you this Christmas Season. May you find the Answer.

146 Christiane December 4, 2011 at 5:14 pm

Bruce, thank you for sharing that with us . . . sometimes unkindness to a child can affect his life long afterward in ways that we cannot imagine

147 Bruce H December 4, 2011 at 10:18 pm
148 BDW December 5, 2011 at 12:07 am

Bruce,

Maybe this has already been answered. If so, my apologies. But I just finished reading all of these exchanges and was left wondering…

Why do you feel it is necessary to instruct your kids on a “best practice” regarding what race to date, marry.

You’ve suggested that there are two options: an instruction to marry within one’s own race or an instruction for interracial marriage.

Why the need to instruct your kids on this best practice? My parents are white. I’m white. I ended up marrying a white woman. I grew up in south Georgia too. But my parents never brought up race when giving me advice or instructions pertaining to dating and relationships.

Just curious, but what is the racial demographics in your area?

149 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 9:11 am

Good question, BDW.

Our churches, whether we admit it or not, are influenced by the world and through the media and have been since the 60’s. Whatever is popular in the world the church in some form mimics it in order to add Christ to it so our kids can do it and we can “witness to those of the world that like it”, too. When I was in the youth department our Valentine banquet had black lights and black light posters. Many had long hair and wore belled bottom striped pants. The group that sang was called, “One Man Band” and looked like the “Mama’s and the Papa’s”. That was in 1970. They fit the times but were “Christian” and the adults could accept it. I think we are taking the interracial issue into consideration the same way. Is it wrong? No. Is it prudent? I say no, too. But can you say it publically without damaging who you are, NO.

Did the resistance to my point of view appear that the majority of our pastors/churches almost encourage our singles to consider the opposite race? It did to me, as if we want to throw our children out there to allow and possibly encourage them to consider it. The media is pushing the interracial relationships more and more. They are pushing the gay agenda, socialism and many other things, too. It seems that it is really not that prevalent in society but by putting it on the TV it appears that “everyone is doing it” and it is well received, or it appears that way on TV. Because the world makes it more of a fad, it is one of the reasons that I choose to guide my children to stay within their race. What I experienced in the church on Valentine’s Day was a passing fad and most things are. I also instruct my children not to get tattoos, piercings, fake finger nails, spiked hair, gothic clothes and such. And please do not group these things with the interracial marriage thing. I just see what is in the media and what seems to be popular as a passing fad, but marriage is permanent. Times change and our training must follow. Hope that answers your question.

The demographics where I have lived are as follows:

1954-1973 25% to 75% AfricanAmer, 1% AsianAmer, 1% MexicanAmer, 75% to 25% White

1974-2011 90% White

150 Bill Mac December 5, 2011 at 10:53 am

Bruce: People have a natural and normal affinity for people like them. Thus people tend to form relationships with others of the same race, and socio-economic-educational background. Some people often break that pattern, and it’s a good thing. I married a white person. It never entered my mind to teach my children “I married a white person and it seemed to work out, so I think you should do the same”. That is what you seem to be saying.

In all this comment stream, unless I’ve missed it, you have never articulated what exactly it is that you think you are protecting your children from. What “harm” is going to befall them if they marry someone non-white (assuming you are white).

151 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 12:06 pm

As you mentioned, “Thus people tend to form relationships with others of the same race, and socio-economic-educational background.” I would think we would do that, however, outside influences have an effect upon impressionable hearts. What they would do naturally could be influenced otherwise. My background may not be at the same level as your socio-economic-educational level and may be influenced where yours wouldn’t. I came from a very poor background and do know the Peter Principle. I understand that I can go just so far. I also know that people at my level can use some help because of the media influences out there. By churches opening the idea up that a person can just marry anyone because we are all one in Jesus says something different to a struggling heart or one who feels differently at the time. That could cause them to make a hasty decision that lasts a lifetime.

My dad was a womanizer. My mom was heavy. My dad instructed me to find a slim woman and make sure her mother was slim, too. Why did he want me to consider a slim woman? I didn’t have a problem with that. I know now that his womanizing drive can be passed on through his example and, possibly, genes. My grandfather was worse than my dad and my uncles had the same problem. I have successfully resisted it with God’s grace, but it has been much easier for me since I followed dad’s request. I tried to give that same advice to a friend and it backfired. He was attracted to heavy women and I was put in my place. It seems that it works better within the family. Why am I really asking my girls to marry a white man? It may be underlying reasons I just cannot understand. My dad doesn’t think he is a womanizer either, but he gave me good advice.

152 Bill Mac December 5, 2011 at 1:24 pm

Bruce: Words are almost failing me right now. With all due respect to your dad, he did not give you good advice. Essentially he was excusing his infidelity because your mom was heavy, and essentially telling you that you could avoid temptation by marrying someone who wasn’t fat or likely to get fat. There are so many things wrong with that I don’t know where to begin. Are you going to advise your daughters to be sure to stay thin so their husbands won’t step out on them? Does your wife know that one of the things keeping you faithful is that she’s kept the weight off? You are lamenting cultural influences that are allowing interracial relationships, but you seem to have bought into a number of destructive cultural stereotypes that are coloring your worldview. Do you know how many women have essentially destroyed themselves in a quest to fulfill the male ideal?

153 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 1:53 pm

Bill – I think you read into it a little much, maybe not, I don’t know. My dad did have that problem but the answer was found in Exodus 20:6 and 12. My relationship with God and my obedience to my father has been honored. I do not have a desire to womanize where the percentages were against me. I obeyed my dad and I believe God honored that. Your speculation does not follow what God has said He would do. I would encourage my daughters to stay healthy, but not for the reasons you seem to think I would. All of your conclusions are misdirected. You would have to think, by reading my comments, that everything I am doing is carnal and full of dead faith, and it isn’t. :-(

154 Smuschany December 5, 2011 at 2:17 pm

Bruce you do realize your father was justifying his adultery by blaming your mother right? That is not Godly. If your father told you to go murder 10 people, would you honor that request? I should hope not. “Honor your father and mother” does not mean that when your fathers advice/actions are ungodly, you should still follow it. Or are you planning on using your father’s excuse in your own marriage? What will happen if your wife looses her “looks” if she no longer is “thin” in a few years?

I know Dave says you are a good guy, but so far we saw that you are teaching your children racist ideas in teaching them the “need” to keep “purity”. Now we see that you married a wife that is “thin” because you were honoring your father who was an adulterer. So now we know that you care about looks in both the “color” department and the “thin” department. Both of those are not Godly reasons to choose a wife. I do honestly fear for your marriage if your wife ever looses her “looks”. You may say “I will never cheat on my wife”. But then that begs the question, why did you listen to your father then in the first place. Furthermore, if “honor your father and mother” is so important that you will listen to ungodly advice from your father in an effort to honor him, what does that really say about your future actions should your daughters ever marry someone of a different “color”, and therefore not “honor” you with their choice?

155 Christiane December 5, 2011 at 2:31 pm

sadly, the ‘womaning’ of a husband is such a crushing burden, I imagine, for a wife, that she might seek solace in food, with the resulting weight-gain . . .
things are not always what they seem to be sometimes,
and human pain folds in on itself and compounds, unless a person can find peace and respite from it through God’s mercy

156 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 2:40 pm

Smuschany – Your comment is very, how do you say, interesting. I have to assume that you were into writing your comment before I answered Bill. First, we are to obey our parents and with that comes a promise. Your example would be a bit extreme regarding murder and disobeying would be appropriate. At the time my dad recommended to me the type of wife I should seek I was about 15 years old. I had absolutly no knowledge of his womanizing. That information came after I had married and had children of my own. I took his advice because he was my father. BTW, his advice was not comparable to murder. Yes, my father was committing adultry and blaming my mother. I think I had that figured out, I’m 57 now. My wife has yet to loose her looks even though others may think that due to her age. I have seasoned as well. We have served God for quite a while and the “demons” that haunted my dad do not haunt me the same way. I believe it is because I obeyed my dad.

I suggest you practice on how you deal with those of opposing positions, or sin if you call it that, here so you don’t offend someone with your fire, aim approach. Even if it seems, or looks obvious, it is never a “best” practice to shoot our own. I can’t hear you because I see no spiritual fruit in your “attacks” or “reasoning”.

157 BDW December 5, 2011 at 11:14 am

You offered earlier reasons why you instruct your kids that it is “best” to pursue same-race relationships.

But, aren’t those reasons proof that you are equally influenced by your context, your culture? The reasons you offer to justify your “best practice” here are based on worldly considerations.

Yea, interracial couples, specifically Black-White couples, in the South are going to face some challenges. Because they live in a culture that is still recovering from its racist past and still enjoys tense race relations. When the surrounding culture is not affirming of such relationships, couples and their children are bound to face some problems.

Do you think that is right though? Surely you offer no moral justification for the difficulties that racially blended families and interracial couples face in parts of American society?

The reason why folks here gave you a hard time is evident in your reply to me.

You didn’t come out and make a “wise counsel argument. I think most folks understand that interracial relationships can be a huge, and at times painful, challenge in certain parts of our nation. Maybe such relationships are not “ideal” for certain individuals in certain contexts.

Instead, you have offered your instruction (to your kids) about interracial relationships and in the same breath drawn parallels to the “gay agenda” and “socialism.” The obvious implication here is that, not only do you see interracial relationships as not wise but you see those relationships as something less than biblical. That’s my take away from your comments. I think I’ve been fair too.

Also, I’m not sure why you see interracial relationships as a “fad.” Come to Texas. Anglos of European descent have been dating, marrying and starting families with Hispanics of Mexican descent since at least the days when Texas was a Republic.

One more thing: doesn’t it strike you as at least inappropriate to compare interracial relationships with things like tattoos, piercings, fake finger nails, goth, etc. ?

We are children of God made in His image. As far as race goes, we were “born this way.” We weren’t born with tattoos, piercings, and fake finger nails.

Your opinions necessarily and logically have other implications, some of which have already been touched on such as adoption. But the implications also extend to friendships. I think it’s quite easy to see how opposition to interracial relationships can lead to support for a segregation between races. Segregation – voluntary or otherwise – is the logical extension of that viewpoint.

Again, I don’t think the two options are encouraging interracial relationships or opposing interracial relationships.

It seems the best Christ-like option is to simply eschew making a principle for dating relationships on the basis of race.

158 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 1:12 pm

BDW – If we based our whole life on the spiritual, and nothing but the spiritual, we should find the poorest woman to marry because the poor are considered rich in faith, and, “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” It wouldn’t matter how ugly, what race or her background but just that she is poor. I could use that as an opposite to your “worldly considerations” statement and it would be very silly, but I did say it. :-)

I do live in the South and, yes, there is stress from interracial marriages. This is one of the reasons for my recommendations I have made public. Contributing to a new race discrimination issue to work through is not what I desire for my children. I approach this with caution because of the racist sensitivity issue here. I am now the new Poster Boy for racism in Baptist circles because I have said that I will instruct my daughters of what race to consider and why. Keep in mind that I never said I would force them or bring white boys in for them to consider or place them in the “white zone” or anything like that; however, it is something that needs to be said in today’s world.

Fad? Yes, when the media promotes it like they do it is to generate more for the time. When the fad subsides and reality kicks in you are left with what you have; real life. Many choose their mate for life based upon the marketing from our media. Once it changes there are holes left in the life. What was promoted as ideal isn’t real. Sounds like the devil’s workshop to me. It is easy for me to see what they are doing. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that interracial marriage has no affect on the Spirit, I just do not promote it with my girls. We can say “no”, “have it your way” or “go for it”, how should we teach our children in church? What is the underlying attitude that the kids see? Ask your church parents to write an answer anonymously to the question, “Would you agree for me to teach your children that it is ok to marry interracially? See what they say from sea to shining sea, not just Texas. BTW, I’m from Houston and live just north in the city of Conroe.

You said, “One more thing: doesn’t it strike you as at least inappropriate to compare interracial relationships with things like tattoos, piercings, fake finger nails, goth, etc.?” I said, “And please do not group these things with the interracial marriage thing.” ? But you did it anyway. This is a prime example of “racial sensitivity” to me. People hear one thing and think another when there is an extremely high sensitivity regarding their belief on the racist issue. I was talking about today’s media making interracial marriage a fad and it is seen as though I was using these things as comparable and I didn’t. If you did read all of the comments made to me and what I said previously, you will find similar responses over and over. There is an over sensitivity toward my comment about instructing my daughters about interracial marriage. Several on this stream I have discussed with on a variety of subjects over a year or so and they disagree with me calling my choice “racist”. You may find comfort in that. Keep in mind, I don’t think I have tried to change anyone’s mind here. It is a personal matter and I have only answered your questions to the best of my ability.

159 Greg Alford December 5, 2011 at 4:59 pm

As a young minister (years ago now) I attended the Alabama State Baptist Convention in Birmingham Alabama. I distinctly remember one prominent Baptist speaker who had recently remarried after the death of his first wife…

He said during one of his sermons to the convention that some of his young associate pastors at his church had ask him why he did not get him a ________ wife, as it was a growing trend in society today for successful ______ men to marry ________ women.

He said to the convention, made up almost 99% of ________ men, that he never even considered marring a _________ women. He went on to say that there is a difference between having a preference and being predigest.

Who was this Preacher??? Answer – Dr. E.V. Hill

160 cb scott December 5, 2011 at 5:08 pm

Greg,

Where in Alabama does one find a “_________” woman? I have been here for a while now, and I have never seen one that looked like that.

161 Greg Alford December 5, 2011 at 5:12 pm

cb,

LOL… :-) I know when I am being set up…

162 cb scott December 5, 2011 at 5:19 pm

I forgot just how long you have been around Blogtown Greg. :-)

163 Chief Katie December 5, 2011 at 10:31 pm

Bruce,

I’ve been reading this thread over the last few days. I admit that many of your posts have disturbed me. It sure seems you have a heart-sickness enveloping you. Yet, I sense that you wish it weren’t so. On the other hand, I thought some people were unnecessarily harsh towards you. Perhaps my observations are way off base. It seems that most of us have a hard time really having an honest discussion about race as everyone is second-guessing motives.

Most of us are the product of our life experiences and influences. You weren’t born feeling the way you do. Things happened that shaped your thoughts and probabaly your actions. Often we are simply reacting and adjusting to those events.

As a child, I was poor. Between 3rd and 5th grade, I lived in the Potrero Housing project in San Francisco. O.J. simpson was my neighbor. The project’s population was primarily black. My family was a tiny minority. My playmates were black children. Although we sometimes had different interests in music, food, etc., we got along quite well and I was not lonely for friends. I was treated well and I treated my friends well. In short, normal childhood friendships. It helped a great deal that my mother was clear that no one was to be judged based on melanin. It might have turned out differently with negative back-chatter.

Throughout the rest of my growing years, I had a good many experiences with people from all backgrounds, customs, culture, etc. I served for 20 years in the Navy where again I was exposed to culture from a to z. It served me well.

If God provides a black man for one of both of your daughters, what is it you fear? Is your mind bogged down with negative stereotypical images? I’ll bet it is. A caucasian suitor can also be completely negative. Hatred is always ugly. Every young man, of any race can be a nightmare. (women are not exempt)

The truth is you are going to find both good and bad in the races.

If you get the chance, get ahold of the movie ‘Gifted Hands’. It’s the biography of Ben Carson. If after watching that movie, you are stilll fearful that someone like Ben Carson could ruin your daughters life, then I’d say you have a serious problem that requires your attention and Godly intervention. I also recommend John Piper’s book Bloodlines.

I will pray for you and your family. We are all wonderfully made.

164 Lydia December 5, 2011 at 10:50 pm

I LOVE Ben Carson. Got to have dinner with him once which was an honor for this gal.

165 Chief Katie December 6, 2011 at 11:11 pm

Lydia,

I have to admit that I’m jealous. I hope some day to meet Ben Carson. We use his movie at my school. Is he a soft-spoken as he appears to be?

166 Bruce H December 5, 2011 at 11:41 pm

Chief – Thanks for your good comments. You are right; our lives are influenced by our life experiences. I believe we produce the image of Christ as we forgive, too. I returned to the house I spent a few years in as a child in 1958 & 1959 with my children in 2004. It was a two story, two bedroom wood frame house with about 1000 square feet. It was square with a single car garage built in. We sat there as I told of the events I remembered when we lived there. The black lady next door stepped outside and began to look at us. I felt that she was concerned about someone watching her house and I stepped outside the van and told her that I had lived in the wood framed house in 1959 as a boy. Her first and only comment was, “Were you the one who was throwing rocks at my boys?” I was 5 years old at that time and I do remember being in the ditch throwing rocks back and forth from ditch to ditch. I was the one hit in the head by her son’s rock. Anyway, I told her that it was me and apologized. She went back into the house. I stood there wondering how that stayed with that lady those many years. We were the only whites in the neighborhood at the time and we moved away just before 1960.

There is still a difference between the races. If it is a fear that I have I will eventually see it by God’s grace. Since this comment stream I have gone both ways emotionally. One thing I do know, my wife and I have a great relationship. The differences are subtle and conflict is minimal. Based upon what I settled long ago and what I have experienced from that decision it will be very difficult to alter it. I wish I was able to be like everyone else here and just let it go. I can accept it easier after I have given my advice to my daughters. That way I know I have done my part to guide them as I have done to experience what I have experienced. If they choose a different path it will be their decision and they can work to prove me wrong. If that is the case, I will be just as happy when they succeed. I will also accept whoever they choose.

I just saw “Courageous” and was really moved by its story line. I will find “Gifted Hands” and watch it. Thanks again for your grace.

167 BDW December 6, 2011 at 1:41 am

Bruce, you write:

“There is still a difference between the races.”

I think it is statements like this one above that leads folks to respond in a very negative way. What do you even mean?

168 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 5:02 am

BDW – A person would have had to live among a couple of different races to understand what I mean. It is not book knowledge and it is not just hear say. Sometimes it is the differences that make us unique and enjoyable, sometimes it isn’t. We do have much in common and we have much that isn’t common. Maybe you could tell me why there is no difference. I think by telling what I know or what I think would keep this stream going down hill.

169 BDW December 6, 2011 at 11:09 am

But Bruce, that same statement was made to justify “separate but equal.” The idea was that races needed to be kept separate due to their differences.

You made the statement. I’m just wondering if you’re willing to carry that statement to its historical logical conclusion. You’ve stated your opposition to interracial marriage. You’ve stated a similar viewpoint with regard to the adoption of children of a different race.

I’m just trying to understand how you believe that your views about race are different popular viewpoints of yesteryear who also made similar arguments about racial differences which served as the foundation and justification for opposition to interracial marriage.

170 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 4:16 pm

BDW – The more I become transparent the more it seems that you and others, except Smuschany, want to try to convince me to think that I should never had the thought of marrying a white woman. That was my initial desire at a young and tender age. It was not put there because of how blacks treated me goo or bad. I just wanted a white woman and didn’t date any other race. For me, there were a multitude of reasons to marry a white girl and lots of reasons not to marry any other race. You could take any or all of those reasons today and use them to call me a racist the way it seems to be defined here. No race is superior and no race is inferior in my book. I chose my wife and I choose to pass on what I consider good and wise counsel down to my children. I would never force them by demanding them to obey me. There will be a time you will simply have to take a man’s word that he is not racist even if you still think he is.

171 BDW December 6, 2011 at 4:47 pm

Come on Bruce,

If that’s your take-away from these exchanges, then I don’t know what you’ve been reading.

I’m married to a white woman. You’re married to a white woman. Great. But I don’t think anyone has questioned your desire to date white women. Like I said earlier, “we like who we like”

I understand why you would instruct your kid not to date someone with no direction in life, someone who was not morally grounded, someone who did drugs, someone who drank, etc.

What I (and others) “don’t get” is why you’d offer a blanket instruction to only date someone of the same race. Put that instruction alongside your other comments about the races being different and a multitude of comments that suggest that interracial marriage is sin (or at least close to it!) and you’ll see what people keep responding.

This is a short video is partly what I’m trying to convey: http://www.illdoctrine.com/2008/07/how_to_tell_people_they_sound.html

I’m not calling you a racist. But I do believe that some of the statements you have made certainly sound racist.

That so many very conservatives folks here have stopped to express that your statements have been “disturbing” should say something.

172 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 5:33 pm

BDW – Absolutely, but when I give a reason, because of racist sensitivity, it is immediately construed that I mean what society has defined it as. You can say you prefer a different race and not be a racist. I keep having to argue my statements because they are taken in a different direction than what I know in my heart of hearts. I only request that you try to understand it without it being “race superiority”. If I instruct my children to seek a white person in the midst of a world that is advertizing and emphasizing interracial relationships I should be able to have that conversation. The media has a great influence on us as a society. That is why I called the worldly view of the interracial issue a “fad” because that is what it is. They simply get people use to it and glamorize it and kids start seeing it as common place. It seems to be accepted in society and they jump on the band wagon to find out they have made a mistake. Few interracial relationships are genuine and many more are not. Stats? None! I do not think virginity is the priority in these relationships, either. If you have the grace to have your children in an interracial relationship I really have no problem with it. God hasn’t given me that same grace at this point. He may at the time it occurs, but right now I know it isn’t before.

If you are having a hard time conveying your message, think about how hard of a time I am having. There seems to be blindness to “I am not racist” since all the catch phrases I use are a crystal clear point to defined racism from ALL on this stream, including one outsider. Racism is a superior sense over all other races and that is nowhere in my heart or thought. It is just what my statements are defined as. To answer more questions means that I am exposing myself to further scrutiny and I just don’t see the benefit of doing so. There is no wisdom in that.

173 Smuschany December 6, 2011 at 2:26 am

So you were hit in the head by a rock thrown by a “black” kid…that is after you admit throwing rocks at him?

Then you say “There is still a difference between the races”.

And you expect us to believe you are not a racist, and that your teachings to your children are not based in a innate fear/hate of “black people”? If that is what you want us to believe then I really do have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you…oh wait…A lot of “black” people live in Brooklyn now of days. I guess you would not want to buy that now would you.

You say you teach your children the way you do because of what you have experienced. Yet in this very post you reveal that as a kid, you had an “experience” of growing up in a “black” neighborhood, and that you were hit in the head with a rock by a “black” kid. If that is the “experience” you are talking about, then it PROVES your concerns for your daughters have nothing to do with the “problems” of interracial marriage, but everything to do with the actual color of someone’s skin. How do I know this? Because you have been asked time and time again what “problems” interracial couples would face that make such a marriage so problematic, that you warn your children against it. You tell us your “experiences” yet the only examples of such “experiences” is the one you just gave. Again, not based on any interracial relationship you have seen or witnessed, but rather your fear because you were hit in the head with a rock by a “black” kid.

BTW…You say you apologized to the woman, but did you ever stop and wonder how she or her own child felt? Having a white kid (the only white kid in the neighborhood as you say) throw rocks at them? Sounds a lot like what hundreds of thousands of “black” kids had to face in many parts of this country for well over a century simply because of the color of their skin. Only some of those rocks were not rocks, but rather crude bombs, Molotov cocktails, and other more deadly objects than simple rocks.

174 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 5:12 am

It was just poor kids playing. It was just kids with nothing. It was a game we were playing and nothing more. It was not a street fight of 5 and 7 year olds. Her sons were always agressive, not me. She was the racist, not me.

175 Smuschany December 6, 2011 at 10:52 am

Ahh…her sons were the agressive ones not you….SHE was the racest not you….I think everything is becoming a lot more clear. Your words are betraying your true heart.

I do believe you were/are honest when you said that your teachings are based off of your experiences. However I believe these instances in your childhood, growing up in a “black” neighborhood, is the experience that counts the most and has influenced you the most when it comes to your feelings about “black” people. You feel you were mistreated by “black” people when you were a kid, and so now you want as little to do with their “race” as possible. That includes teaching your daughers to keep that “white pride” going.

I truely do pray that one day you realize just how racist you truly are.

176 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 12:08 pm

Smuschany – Here is the definition.

RACISM – a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

No where in this stream have I stated or acted “superior” toward any race. That is the KEY to racism and what fuels it. I, sir, am not racist and know that portion of my heart in this matter. Sermons, books and movies will not change that. If it is there the only One to reveal it will be the Holy Spirit. If He does, I will return with an open apology. For now, I will continue as I am.

It doesn’t have to be race for someone to act “superior” toward or over another. It is just called “racist” when race is the determining factor. Keep in mind, it is the evolutionist who are the “Supreme Racist” out there.

177 Smuschany December 6, 2011 at 2:12 pm

Actually racism is the belief that different traits in human racial groups can justify discrimination. Superiority or inferiority has nothing to do with it. Though on that note, I would say that you do believe that people of other “races” would bring an inferior quality to a potential marriage to your daughters thus causing them “difficulties” and “problems” in their relationship. Is that not then racism by even your own definition?

178 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 3:27 pm

Smuschany – :-) , :-(

179 Dave Miller December 6, 2011 at 3:22 am

I think it is time to draw this discussion to a close. We pretty much exhausted the productive end of the discussion.

180 Chief Katie December 6, 2011 at 4:44 am

Dave,

I’m sorry. I didn’t see you comment about wrapping this up.

181 Chief Katie December 6, 2011 at 4:45 am

grrrrr “your’ comment.

182 Chief Katie December 6, 2011 at 4:11 am

Bruce,

I recognize that you did have experiences that were negative. I’m not going to pile on about the experiences of minorities over centuries. Certainly neither is noble. Comparing stories of racial injustice at this point, is also not likely to be helpful.

The point is Bruce, this is sinful behavior. There is nothing in the gospel that allows you to justify your feelings and/or behavior. For you to say that your daughters would have to prove you wrong is very telling. You esssentially get to lay the framework for sin instead of laying the framework for a Godly marriage. Even if marriage were not the pressing matter, your relationship with Christ will always suffer as long as you harbor resentment. Please open your heart and mind to the truth of God’s love. You don’t want your family to look back at their relationships with you knowing they were not the best you could have done.

You might also want to get some of Voddie Baucham’s materials on the family. I’d suggest that the kind of relationship that Voddie has with his daughters is something to be emulated and sought after.

There is nothing too hard for God.

183 Bruce H December 6, 2011 at 5:18 am

Thank you, Chief.

184 Stephen M Young II December 6, 2011 at 12:29 pm

I will say this for the benefit of those who don’t know. I am married “outside of my race” as Bruce put it. I can’t imagine being happier or more successful otherwise.

185 cb scott December 6, 2011 at 12:49 pm

You did very well indeed for a LSU fan and you have a mighty handsome son there also.

186 Stephen M Young II December 6, 2011 at 7:43 pm

Thanks.

187 Nicholas December 7, 2011 at 12:49 am

Fortunately, the SBC repudiates the unbiblical attitudes expressed by Bruce H here. See this post: http://sbcvoices.com/southern-baptist-convention-resolutions-racism/

Cases like Gulnare bring these guys out of the woodwork, I guess!

BTW, why does everyone, even the marital-racial segregationists, want to claim to be part Native American? (The Native Americans have a saying today that “the biggest tribe are the wannabes!”) You can’t have your cake and eat it too, Bruce!

188 Bruce H December 7, 2011 at 9:25 am

Nicholas – I went to the post you recommended and read as many as I could. None addressed interracial marriage. They only grouped the black “race” and never presented the “All races as one” as many dream of in this stream. Everyone, like you, throws anyone they think has made a statement of “race superiority” into one the racist category. I never claimed that I wanted to be Native American, just instruct my children to marry their kind, Christian and white. The explainations have been given but no one listens or hears. It is like people are sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming like a child so they don’t hear what I am saying. Now we have become overly sensitive to racism and the pendulum has swung off its cradle. BTW, the convention resolutions will never solve racism or its balance in the SBC.

If you look at the stream here and see how the response to “perceived” racism is, you will see that there was not much love. Even an outsider was capable of expressing his views with a form of love and humility in his writing. The only way any of us can get around, through, over or under racism is to do what God instructed in Exodus 20:6 “but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” The SBC will have new resolutions every year or so on this subject. The self-righteous will always attack, but until there is a resolution to love God and keep His commandments we will keep doing this over and over and over.

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