This is the sixth in an ongoing series of posts exploring how we can balance the demands of unity in the Body of Christ with the need for doctrinal accountability and discernment.
- In the first post, I introduced the topic.
- In the second post, I identified the four levels of biblical truth and the appropriate unity response at each level.
- In the third post, I introduced “Brick Wall Doctrine” – truths that are essential to the gospel and cannot be compromised in the church.
- In the fourth post, I started listing what I believe are Brick Wall truths, beginning with the perfection of the Word of God.
- In the fifth post, I identified two more Brick Wall doctrines – the nature of God and the sinful nature of mankind.
Brick Walls, Picket Fences: Part 6
It seems that there continues to exist a lot of misunderstanding about what a “Brick Wall” is. I have defined Brick Wall doctrine as that which separates the true faith from that which is false. We must build a wall of separation between that which is light and what is dark, what is true and what is false. We must protect the church from the destructive effects of heresy.
But the assumption of many is that this is some kind of personal isolation or shunning. It is not. The Brick Wall is more ideological or ecclesiological than it is personal. I have a close family member who has views well outside the Brick Wall. I still have a good relationship with this person – there has been no shunning. But I also would be careful not to do anything that would indicate that this person’s views are Christian, or acceptable. It is possible to maintain a relationship without giving approval to a person’s views or choices.
The major focus of the Brick Wall has to do with the church. Should the church allow into its fellowship, or especially its leadership, one who actively promotes doctrines that are contrary to the gospel? Of course not. We need a Brick Wall. If someone started coming to your church and said, “I believe that Jesus is just one way to God among many,” would you give him a class of high school boys to teach? That’s the Brick Wall. We separate those from leadership and influence in the church who would undermine the work of God with false doctrines, with gospel-denying heresy.
I have been defining these Brick Wall doctrines. There are three more to mention in this post.
Jesus Our Risen Savior and Lord
Everyone wants to create Jesus is their own image. To the hippies of the 60’s Jesus was a peacenik revolutionary. To many Christians, Jesus is the “Chief Republican”. I remember hearing the astounding words of Ellen Degeneres when she came out of the closet. “Jesus was not judgmental.” Wow. Evidently, whatever Bible she has does not have Revelation!
The Jesus of scripture is a baffling figure, often doing the opposite of what people expected. There is some measure of revelation of his nature in the Old Testament. The gospels then reveal quite a lot of who Jesus was. Of course, we know from Philippians 2 that Jesus had veiled his glory and taken the nature of a servant when he walked on earth. It is not until Revelation that the full majesty of the glory of Jesus Christ is revealed – the King of kings and Lord of lords who rides out of heaven to judge the world! As with the nature of God, we must deal with the real Jesus – the one revealed in the pages of scripture – and not try to make a palatable Jesus, one who serves our interests and desires.
The Jesus of scripture is the Lamb of God who came to take away our sins and the one who rose from the dead as King of kings and Lord of lords. We must believe in the Jesus who is revealed in the Word of God – the only hope of mankind. There are four key aspects of the biblical presentation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is Divine
First, the Bible makes clear that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but also God Himself, the second member of the Trinity. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Theologians call this the “dual nature” of Christ. In His time on earth, Jesus was fully God and fully man; God incarnate. He was not half God and half man. He was 100% divine and 100% human at the same time. Every heresy related to the nature of God in church history has denied one or the other of these truths. In the early church, false teachers often denied that Jesus was really human. Later on, it became common to deny the deity of Christ. We must hold to both truths in an unwavering fashion.
Jesus Died for Our Sins
Second, Jesus was the Lamb of God who died on the cross for our sins. He lived a perfect, sinless life, earning the favor of God in a way we could not. He offered Himself as the payment for our sins. God punished Jesus on the cross for our sins. Now, because He took our sins on Himself, He can offer us His righteousness in exchange. We become righteous because Jesus became sin and paid the penalty for us.
It’s all about the gospel!
Jesus Rose Again
Third, Jesus rose from the dead on the third day. That is the clear teaching of 1 Corinthians 15 and many other scriptures. If Jesus did not rise from the dead – physically – we are still in our sins, our faith is in vain and we are “of all people most miserable.” Some deny the resurrection of Christ as religious myth. Others say that Jesus rose spiritually, but not physically. Both views are heresy. Paul makes it clear that the resurrection of Jesus was physical. He was seen by 500 people at one time. It is the bedrock teaching of our faith. Jesus died for our sins, then rose up from the dead physically. His lifeless body was restored and glorified.
Jesus is Lord of All
Finally, when Jesus rose from the dead, He was exalted to the right hand of God and establish once and for all as Lord of all. Before Him, “every knee will bow…and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” Romans 14:9 tells us that Jesus did not only die for our sins, but He died so that He could assume His rightful place as Lord of all. He is not running for office. He has been seated at the right hand of the Father and given the name above every name. Jesus is Lord!
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” This is the confession of Christianity that offends our world. No one minds if we worship Jesus. But when we join the saints throughout church history in confessing, “Jesus is Lord of All,” we offend. But that is our confession. We believe that Jesus is the only way to God. He said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” As much as the world hates this doctrine, we must accept it and proclaim it. Many have abandoned the doctrine, but we must not.
When Southern Baptists embarked on an evangelistic effort to target Jewish folks in Chicago, the local paper in Cedar Rapids ran a derisive editorial, accusing us of prejudice and coercion. I wrote a guest editorial in response, explaining that we Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to God. The church began among Jewish people who believed that Jesus was their Messiah. Evangelizing Jewish people is integral to church history. We cannot coerce conversions – if they are real they have to be the work of the Spirit on the heart, not human pressure and manipulation. A week or so later a response appeared from a leader of another Baptist denomination. He accused me of arrogance because I believed that Jesus is the only way to God and that other religions do not provide salvation. He was a nice man, but deadly wrong. If we give up the belief that Jesus is the only way to God, we give up everything! This man identified himself as a wolf among the sheep! The biblical presentation of Jesus is not something we can afford to compromise.
We worship Jesus Christ; God incarnate, the Risen Savior and Lord of all.
Salvation is by Grace thru Faith Alone
We believe that salvation is a gift of God’s grace which we appropriate by faith in Jesus Christ. We deny that our own merit, our good works, our religious rituals or devotion, or any action on our part has any contribution to that salvation. It is wholly a gift of God. “My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.”
I read a disturbing study recently. We Baptists like to pride ourselves on our evangelistic fervor, on teaching the doctrine of salvation by grace. But the survey showed that nearly 60% of Baptists in America believed that works had something to do with their salvation.
Why should God allow you into His heaven? That is the gist of the diagnostic question that Evangelism Explosion asks people. What are you trusting in to get you through the pearly gates? Most people, even church people, believe that they will get in because of something they have done. “I was a member of the church.” “I got baptized and received communion.” “I tried to be a good person.” One person told me, “I am a 3.5 on a 4 point scale. I think I will be okay.” He did not understand. Nothing less than perfection will get you into heaven. If you cannot be sinlessly perfect, you cannot get into heaven by your works.
Do you understand this? Mother Teresa was not good enough to earn her way into heaven. Billy Graham could not get into heaven because of who he is. He is not good enough. Martin Luther King, Jr. is a hero in America, but he was not good enough to earn Heaven by his own works. I cannot make it into heaven because of who I am or what I have done, and neither can you. “There is no one righteous. Not even one.”
That is why Jesus lived and died. He earned heaven by living a sinless life. He took our sins in his body on the cross and died for them. My sins separated me from God, but Jesus took them away. He earned the heaven I could not earn. He paid the price I could not pay. And He gave me the righteousness I could not earn.
Why should God let you into heaven? There is only one right answer. “Because Jesus paid the price for my sins. I have turned from sin and trusted Jesus as my Savior and Lord. I come to you, Father, in the name of Jesus Christ.”
Jesus is Coming Again
Finally, we must believe in the second coming of Christ. We may (and do) disagree about the details of that coming, but the central fact is essential. Jesus will return to judge the world and to establish his eternal glory. The redeemed will dwell with God in glory and the lost face an eternity of judgment in hell. People hate the concept of eternal judgment, but it is Level 1 truth.
Figuring out eschatology can be like wandering through a maze. Premillennial, Amillennial, Postmillennial, Pretribulation, Posttribulation, Preterist – it can be confusing and overwhelming. But there is a core of doctrine that all orthodox Christians agree on.
First, every human being will stand before God to give account. We answer to Him. Jesus came the first time to seek and to save the lost. The second time He comes He will judge the world and rule over it. Every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will confess the rightful Lordship of Jesus Christ over all.
Second, there is a glorious future awaiting those who have received the grace of God. The redeemed will dwell in the presence of God forever. We call that place heaven. It is wonderful beyond anything we can imagine. Romans 8:18 says that our “present sufferings are not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us.” Heaven will be so amazing that the worst of our sufferings will seem nothing compared to its glory.
Finally, there is also a place called hell. It is a place of eternal torment for those who have refused the grace of God. It is the most horrible of truths, but we do not get to pick and choose our beliefs. What the Bible affirms, we must proclaim. Revelation tells us that after Jesus returns to earth, Satan will be bound and brought before God. He will be thrown into the lake of fire to be punished for his sins eternally. Then, God will send those who have not trusted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord to that same lake of fire, “prepared for the devil and his angels,” and they will receive the wrath of God for all eternity. We cannot close our eyes to this horrible truth.
The rest is detail. We can disagree on the specifics. But we must affirm the basic facts of the Second Coming of Christ.
Here I Stand
Martin Luther confronted the false doctrines and corrupt practices of the medieval Church. He called it back to biblical beliefs. Threatened with serious punishment, even death, he was called to recant his belief in salvation by grace, not works. He looked at his judges and said, “Here I stand. I can do no other.”
We need Christians today with the courage to say, “Here I stand.” Yes, we may cause division when we hold faithfully to these truths, but it is a division that honors God. It is a shame when Christians divide over silly, meaningless things. But it is an equal, perhaps greater shame when we compromise the fundamental truths. If we refuse to erect a brick wall of protection around these doctrines, the enemies of the Cross will attack the people of God and the church will lose its evangelistic zeal. Those who deny these truths are not brothers in Christ. They are wolves among the sheep. We do not fellowship with them, we contend with them.
A warning is in order here. Around these doctrines we must erect a wall of protection. But that wall should be around these fundamental doctrines only. We must not divide and devour each other over doctrines that do not fit in this category. Most of the negative responses I have received on this subject is from my own folks – the theologically-oriented Christians. They are unwilling to admit that their favorite doctrine is not fundamental. They are unwilling to admit that someone can love Jesus Christ and honor the Word while disagreeing with their precious hobby horse doctrine. We must be very careful not to put anyone outside the Brick Wall unless it is absolutely essential.
But on these doctrines, the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, we must be unyielding and unmoving. “Here we stand.” We must erect a Great Wall of Doctrine around these truths. If we want the church to survive and prosper, “we can do no other.”
Chris Roberts (75)
Dave Miller (63)
Bob Hadley (60)
Debbie Kaufman (49)
dr. james willingham (48)
Les (41)
Christiane (30)
cb scott (29)
Bill Mac (27)
Rick Patrick (27)
I would add not only is Jesus Lord of all, but that someone has to personally, consciously trust Him to save them or they are lost. That seems to be a necessary distinction on this blog, particularly recently. Apparently, certain pretend christians have the idea that they can claim salvation is “through Christ and His death on the cross” but mean that a person from another religion can be saved without realizing that it is Christ who saved them. Of course, no Christian would dare suggest something so heretical, but it seems to pop up a lot among those of the moderate/liberal theological persuiasion. In other words, people who don’t matter.
I agree with what you say, Joe.
Of course, I disagree strongly with your last line, which I assume was said in jest. Even those with wrong ideas/bad doctrine “matter.” They matter to God and they should matter to us.
Hey, Dave, you know me. Always kidding around. Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck.
Seriously, good thoughts and insights in the article.
C’mon. Group hug!
Huggy Bear. LOL
Don’t start channeling CB, Joe!
These people matter to God, don’t forget them JOE.
They don’t fit into everyone’s expectations, no. But they matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_0K-gPlyb0&feature=fvw
Don’t forget the teaching of St. Paul:
‘So shall we fully grow up into Christ,
who is the head,
and by whom the whole body
is bonded and knit together,
every joint adding its own strength
for each individual part to work according to its
function,
so the whole body grows until it has built itself up in
love.’
‘One Body – with the poorest and weakest among us at the heart,
. . . where each person is important because all are necessary. . .’
(from The Body Broken, by Jean Vanier)
If a person believes the people of other religions can be saved by Christ without knowing Christ saved them until they get to heaven, they are not part of the body of Christ.
Also, you might want to try responding to what I was actually talking about rather than inserting mental illness/disability in every discussion.
So I guess now people who proclaim Jesus is the only way are not just – anti-Semitic, Westboro fundies, imprecatory cursing, – but now abusers of handicapped children? Joe where do find the time?
I have compassion on anyone who has a child with Downs. We’ve got a family in church that has a adult downs child – she’s unbelievably spunky.
But this is not about mental illness. Its about those who come into the Body of Christ with doctrines that are contrary to the gospel.
Let’s stay focused, okay?
Let me be clear, I want this to be the last comment in this little side excursion. No more from anyone.
Discuss the post, please.
Hi Joe and Dave,
I think “personal conscious trust” is more of a picket fence than a brick wall. At least that is how it plays out over the Christian landscape.
Any group holding to baptismal regeneration – Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, possibly some Anglican, and restorationists (Church of Christ, Campbellites) will disagree. Also, very conservative Presbyterians who hold to covenant theology will disagree as well. So will most Methodists. To them, baptized infants are saved on the basis of being in the covenant (Presbyterians) or on the basis of the faith of the parents (both).
I also suspect most Baptists are not universal in the believing that one MUST consciously trust Christ for salvation. Most of us make exceptions for infants and the mentally handicapped. So I don’t know if we can apply a personal conscious decision to all circumstances.
In the end, this is a picket fence doctrine, rather than a brick wall. Too much of the church, even parts of it where Southern Baptists largely agree with them, simply does not hold to personal, conscious belief in Jesus. It is one of our distinctives, rather than something all Christians believe.
Jim G.
1) We don’t vote on truth. Just because someone disagrees with that doesn’t mean their opinion is valid. I mean, Roman Catholics? Methodists? Seriously???
2) Please, enough of this infant/mentally handicapped thing. Just because I don’t know how that works (I have my theory) does NOT mean there is some sort of escape clause for a muslim who practices islam or whatever other exception you want to come up with.
Anyone who claims that people** get to heaven and are saved by Christ without personally, consciously trusting Him is not a Christian. Total brick wall doctrine.
**My ignorance as to how God works salvation for infants/mentally handicapped persons does not change this fact. It only means that God did not choose to reveal it in scripture. It does not mean that there is some sort of universal “escape clause”.
Hey Joe,
I did not say anything about a universal escape clause. And I too am ignorant about salvation for the infants, etc. If you are going to reply to me, reply to me, not something someone else said.
Seriously. Methodists. They are Christians. The United Methodist Church is largely liberal and has been for 100 years. But not all Methodists are card-carrying liberals. The views on salvation in Methodism go all the way back to the start of the movement, which predates Liberalism by 100 years.
I am not looking for some escape clause. Go after other posters who do that. If you insist on a personal conscious decision as a brick wall, then you have eliminated everyone except for the Anabaptists and Baptists. You have eliminated Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Hodge, Warfield, and everyone else who was not a Baptist/Anabaptist. I agree that we (S Baptists) are right on this issue. What I am not prepared to do is exclude everyone who disagrees from the faith. That is why I said picket fence rather than brick wall. Historically, the evidence for a picket fence is overwhelming, even after the Reformation.
Jim G.
I think Jim does have a point. I strongly disagree with baptismal regeneration, but I am not willing to judge those who believe in it outside the sphere of Christianity.
I think that most of us would admit that we really don’t have a biblical revelation about what happens to severely mentally handicapped (never know what the latest PC term is) or infants who die. I believe that they are in God’s hands and that when we find out what happened to them, we will say that God did exactly the right thing. My guess is that, as you suggest, they are saved by some sort of special mercy of God.
However, Romans 1 makes it clear that all mankind is guilty before God (even those who do not consciously know him). There is some revelation in nature, but saving revelation is given through Christ.
The issue, Jim (and I appreciate the way you handled the potentially difficult topic), is whether God saves people through the workings of other religions. Does Jesus save sincere Buddhists?
I think the orthodox answer is that we are not only saved by grace, but also through faith. God’s grace is only given to those who seek God through Jesus Christ in faith.
While I understand where you are coming from, I guess I’m still seeing the need for faith in Christ (with a few exceptions where we are all in the dark) is a pretty firm thing.
See, I’m not sure the retarded/infant is not saved by faith in Christ. Just because I don’t understand how they could have such faith when they’re ability to think and understand are so limited, I also can’t say that PROVES there is another process at work or that God overlooks their lack of faith. I can say “I don’t know”. However, my ignorance does not suggest or imply that God doesn’t have a way to work around any physical or mental difficulties to work saving faith in their heart.
I think you are right that the issue of the infant/handicapped person is a conundrum. But we ought to be careful to form doctrine from silence or build on such a foundation as we do theology.
I agree with your last sentence, Dave. I think so too. But the exceptions are bothersome, and they just give me some pause before speaking too dogmatically on the subject, that’s all. :0)
Jim G.
“I think the orthodox answer is that we are not only saved by grace, but also through faith.”
I think that the ‘Orthodox’ would also add to this that we are saved by hope. I reference ‘Spe Salve’ and the verses from Holy Scripture that speak to this.
Our salvation by grace through faith produces hope – a sure, certain and eternal hope. It is not based on hope.
Can you give a scripture that would indicate that hope is a part of the saving process, not a fruit of it?
DAVID,
My reference is to be included, not to take precedence. The kind of hope that saves us is not the kind that disappoints, it is the kind that helps us to persevere in the faith.
But the absence of hope, which I call ‘despair’, is a sign that people of faith need to return to the Lord (teshuva) in repentence. People of faith must never despair of the mercy of God in all things.
You know, watching people talk to L’s and seeing her make assertions and then crawfish out of them is like watching Billy Crystal in “When Harry met Sally”:
“So, you were going to look for a job as a gymnast?”
“No, a journalist”
“Right, a journalist, that’s what I said.”
DAVID, there is a discussion, which contains many Scriptural references, of what you refer to;
and it is framed as ‘The concept of faith-based hope in the New Testament and the early Church’ in numbers 4 through 9 in this document:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
I hope you will take a look at numbers 4 through 9 and let me know what you see that you agree with and what you see that you do not agree with, if you have time to do it.
I asked you for biblical quotes, not for quotes from the Pope or from Catholic documents. Please, refer to scripture.
FYI – Romans 8:24 talks of being saved “in hope” of the final redemption of our bodies – the perfection of those who believe. That is the ultimate end of our salvation – the hope that we receive when we are saved.
Do you have any scriptures to support your assertion above?
Hi DAVID,
If by ‘assertion’, you refer to this?
‘The kind of hope that saves us is not the kind that disappoints, it is the kind that helps us to persevere in the faith. ”
A good Scripture would be found in Romans 5:
“1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.
3 Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance,
4 and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope,
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.”
The Romans at that time thought that if one experienced afflictions, it was a sign of being ‘punished for sin’, but in Romans 5, they were taught that this was not the case. Instead, they could boast about their afflictions, and point in hope to Christ.
Even in the OT, we see beautiful examples of the hope of Salvation, engendered by faith. One of the most triumphant Scriptures describing Christian hope is actually drawn from the OT and is used in the Anglican Burial Service:
“I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another.” (from Job 19)
Hope and faith are intertwined, David.
Patience is a part of hope. And trust in God. And the peace that it brings. It sustains us in Christ, like an anchor.
I referenced this quote above:
“I think that the ‘Orthodox’ would also add to this that we are saved by hope.”
You said save “by” hope – as if hope joined grace and faith as part of the salvation process.
We are saved “to” hope.
We are saved “in” hope of the life to come.
In the passage you reference above, hope is a product of our salvation.
But you said that we are saved BY hope. That this was “orthodox” – which means a necessary point of view for true Christianity.
I’m challenging you to give biblical (not papal) support for that statement.
Hi DAVID,
‘saved by hope’ in the context of orthodox faith
Romans 8:24 “For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?”
This Scripture is a good ‘jumping off’ point for other references. It ties hope to faith and intertwines it.
Actually, verbal sparring aside, it is Christ Who does the saving.
And what is greater than ‘faith’ or ‘hope’? We are taught that it is ‘love’.
And God is love.
And Christ is God.
Priorities: we are saved by CHRIST
Scripture is not a “jumping off point”. It is the inerrant, inspired word of God. You don’t START with scripture to get truth. You STOP there.
It ties hope to faith and intertwines it.
If by “it” you mean scripture, it most certainly does not. The quote from Romans you pasted obviously says “in” hope not “by” hope. If by “it” you mean “other references” those other references are not inerrant and God did not inspire their human authors with His very words. Therefore, they are irrelevant as a source for divine truth.
Other references:
Matt. 12:21 – “In His name the Gentiles will hope”
Rom. 5:2 – “grace…exult in hope of the glory of God”
Rom. 5:5 – “hope does not disappoint, because love of God poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us”
Rom. 15:13 – “may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace…that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit”
I Cor. 15:19 – “if we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are to be pitied”
II Cor. 3:12 – “having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech”
Gal. 5:5 – “we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness”
Eph. 1:18 – “you may know what is the hope of His calling”
Col. 1:23 – “continue in the faith…not moved away from the hope of the gospel”
Col. 1:27 – “Christ in you, the hope of glory”
I Tim. 1:1 – “Christ Jesus who is our hope”
I Tim. 4:10 -”we have fixed our hope on the living God who is the Savior of all men”
Titus 1:2 – “the hope of eternal life”
Titus 2:13 – “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of Christ”
Heb. 7:19 – “there is a bringing in of a better hope”
I Pet. 1:3 – “born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”
I Pet. 1:13 – “fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ”
I Pet. 3:15 – “ready to make a defense ..for the hope that is in you”
I Jn. 3:3 – “every one who has this hope on Him purifies himself”
OLD TESTAMENT:
“But the needy will not always be forgotten, nor the hope of the afflicted ever perish.”
Psalm 9:18
” But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,”
Psalm 33:18
” May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you.”
Psalm 33:22
“But now, Lord, what do I look for? My hope is in you.”
Psalm 39:7
” For you have been my hope, O Sovereign LORD, my confidence since my youth.”
Psalm 71:5
“Then they would put their trust in God and would not forget his deeds but would keep his commands.”
Psalm 78:7
“May those who fear you rejoice when they see me, for I have put my hope in your word.”
Psalm 119:74
“My soul faints with longing for your salvation, but I have put my hope in your word.”
Psalm 119:81
“Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,”
Psalm 146:5
“For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.”
Isaiah 38:18 New International Version
“But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him.”
Jeremiah 17:7 New International Version
“Yet this I call to mind and therefore I have hope:”
Lamentations 3:21
“It is good to wait quietly for the salvation of the LORD.”
Lamentations 3:26 New International Version
“The LORD will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the LORD will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.”
Joel 3:16 New International Version
“Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope; even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.”
Zechariah 9:12 New International Version
I hope these ‘references’ can help. I’m sure there are many more.
I have a concordance, Christiane. I don’t need a list of verses on hope.
I believe that hope is important. I know it is a common subject in Scriptures.
You said that the orthodox view of the gospel is that we are “saved by hope.”
I’m not asking you to give me a listing of scriptures on the subject of hope, I’m asking you to defend a specific statement you made about the gospel – one which I think is contrary to the scriptural teaching.
You are confusing the process of salvation with the product of salvation.
Please answer the point.
Joe is right on this one. Scripture is not a “jumping off point.” It is the foundation of faith. The problem comes when we jump off from scripture to add our own ideas. That is how we arrive at false gospels – by “jumping off” of the sure foundation of scripture.
Dave, I believe though not specific, I do believe the scriptures (all revealed together) tell us that many of these questions will be answered and taken care of in the Millennium, as we serve a “just God” and he has provided a way that “all” except “one Satan” has the opportunity and “free will” choice either here, or during the Millennium. These as you speak of are not handicapped in the after life as they are in spirit body…
“But the assumption of many is that this is some kind of personal isolation or shunning. It is not. The Brick Wall is more ideological or ecclesiological than it is personal. ”
Thank YOU! The brick wall starts with Christ. Not humans
If you and Joe insist on the hug thing…at least learn how to give a proper man hug:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-give-a-great-man-to-man-hug
A proper man-hug (which, in spite of my nickname around here, I am very uncomfortable with) is side to side, involves a slap on the back, and some kind of manly grunt.
And a quick release. Hug, grunt, slap, get at least 5 feet away.
And yes, when we hold hands in a circle to pray at fellowships, we stand boy-girl-boy-girl. Men’s fellowships do not do circle prayers.
Hi Dave,
Sorry about the last post above. I posted as you were posting yours.
Good stuff. My only comment is that I would leave some room for other views of the atonement within the brick wall. Language like “Jesus paid the penalty for our sins” (by the way, is that explicit language in the Bible?) almost forces us to centrally grasp penal substitution as our atonement motif. I don’t think the church has done that or ever will. I think the gospel goes deeper in the writings of both Paul and John to describe an inclusion in Christ that brings us into an eternal, intimate communion with the triune God. As big as forgiveness and justification are, union with Christ is bigger. :0)
Jim G.
I know that NT Wright and some of the emergents have been moving away from penal substitutionary atonement. I consider that a serious departure.
Is there more to the Cross than just penal substitution? Yes.
But Penal Substitution seems to be an irreducible minimum. If you don’t start there, you go nowhere.
In other words, the union with God in Christ offered at the cross is only a reality if the debt of sin which necessitated my death (wages of sin is death…) is dealt with my the sacrificial atonement of Christ.
Can’t have union with Christ without atonement for sins.
I see your point, Dave, although I am hesitant to accept all of it. Union with Christ is a reality that extends into eternity past, regardless of how one views election. We cannot enjoy the benefits of said union (nor realize its presence) without his death, burial, and resurrection; but that does not remove the existence of that union from before the foundations of the world.
As for penal substitution (ps), it seems to me that it flourishes when we employ a transactional basis for the work of Christ (his righteousness given to us, our sin given to him), but I don’t think ps goes far enough to describe our organic inclusion in him. I don’t disagree with ps, I just don’t think it says enough. It keeps salvation at a transactional level rather than an organic one. Our union is the basis for any transaction that may occur, not the other way around.
Thanks for responding. I appreciate your comments.
Jim G.
Hello JIM G.
You wrote this: “I think the gospel goes deeper in the writings of both Paul and John to describe an inclusion in Christ that brings us into an eternal, intimate communion with the triune God. ”
Can you expand on that comment by tying it to the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Redemption and the Resurrection, as well as the concept of our dying ‘in Christ’ and rising ‘in Him’.
The idea of ‘believing INTO CHRIST’ is a very ancient one among the early Christians, and I see connections of that belief in Holy Scripture also. But I would like to know your thoughts.
Hi Christiane,
I can’t give too much of an answer – it would be too long! But I can give some snippets that may be a jumping off point to further dialog.
In the beginning, there is the triune God – Father, Son, and Spirit. In their overflowing love, God decided to create humanity with whom he could share his fellowship he enjoys in eternity. His eternal plan is to bring humanity up into his very presence. It would seem that the fall would thwart that plan, but the plan has always been to enter into our (created) world in order to re-create it.
Thus is the saying of Irenaeus and Athanasius (my modification), “God the Son became the Son of Man in order to make the sons of men the sons of God.” In Jesus Christ, humanity is permanently joined to the Trinity, as the eternal Son is now eternally human. A union of Christ and the believer, analogous to the union enjoyed by Father and Son (John 17:21), is all that remains to be secured for human believers to be likewise taken into intimate communion with the triune God. That is accomplished, in my understanding, when the preserver of all creation enters into his creation. “In him we live and move and have our being.” As the God of providence, our existence is bound up in his. His crucifixion becomes ours. His burial becomes ours. His resurrection becomes ours. This is objectively true for everyone found “in him.” Working backwards, if I am joined to Christ, then I am joined (by virtue of the hypostatic union) to God the Son. If I am then joined to God the Son, I am joined to God the Father and God the Spirit.
I’ll save my views for how we get into Christ for a later time. Neither universalism nor pluralism are satisfying. But I also think unconditional individual election is not satisfying either. For another time… :0)
Jim G.
Hi JIM G.
Thank you for responding. I am familiar with that famous quote from Irenaeus, yes.
If I have understood you properly, I can pretty much agree with what you wrote concerning that we are invited into the life of Christ and through Him, we are reconciled to the Father.
For a long time people have focused on the need to invite Christ into our lives, but now they are beginning to understand more fully that we are called to enter into His Life.
And yes, if we get into the ‘how’ that happens specifically,
I’m afraid that would be ‘off topic’.
About that love between the Persons of the Holy Trinity overflowing into Creation:
there is a famous saying that speaks to God having no other reason for creating than His love and goodness: “Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened His hand.” Thomas Aquinas
Hi Christiane,
It goes in both directions. We invite Christ into our “sphere of existence” and he invites us into his. He makes the first move, of course. We love because he first loved us.
Jim G.
“I think the orthodox answer is that we are not only saved by grace, but also through faith. God’s grace is only given to those who seek God through Jesus Christ in faith. ”
If we could put the mentally handicapped aside for a moment…
As I understand it, part of salvation is repentence…..understanding our need for a Savior. part of the “Grace” is the Holy Spirit granting us repentence. (I am not saying that is a one time blanket repentence but ongoing in a believers life as they grow in Holiness..sanctification, if you will)
So, if one can be saved without knowing it is by Christ…then what happens to repentence…. The Holy Spirit?
To give this another twist…My daughter at 6 once asked me if Satan apologized, could he be saved, too. This reminds me of many who want to believe folks are saved without knowing Christ…as if they die and God says, no problem…you were nice and kinda sorta got it right.
Does anyone remember when they found those lost tribes in…was it Papua NG? Some wanted to leave them alone. Some Christians insisted that we must tell them about Christ….I remember reading about this…I think it happened back in the 70′s.
I have known people who believe that if someone has never heard the gospel. they will automatically be saved. If that is true, we should immediately cease all evangelistic efforts. Every time I preach the gospel and someone hears it for the first time, I am condemning them (potentially) to an eternal hell.
If those who have never heard the gospel go to heaven, then let us show love to them by never telling anyone about Jesus again.
Of course, not to start another rabbit trail, but I guess that is essentially what most American Christians are doing – telling no one!
I agree…they would be better off not hearing a thing about Christ if it is true that through ignorance they are saved.
“Saving Ignorance” – interesting concept
‘forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do’
maybe those words didn’t ‘save them’, but they teach us something about the mind of Our Lord towards those in ignorance . . . and that is something of a Grace that we could not even begin to imagine, without His Coming to us.
Actually, they tell us nothing of the kind. They tell us that He asked the Father to forgive them for crucifying Him. If you’re going to say that those words reveal a universal pardon awaiting all the ignorant because their ignorance makes them innocent, the onus is on YOU to prove that. You know, proof??
“If you’re going to say ” ??????
?
“If you’re going to say ” ??????
?
they teach us something about the mind of Our Lord towards those in ignorance . . . and that is something of a Grace that we could not even begin to imagine, without His Coming to us.
The comment is mine. If DAVID feels it is not appropriate, I would expect for him to remove it, as such. And I would not object to his doing that.
And again, if you’re going to make the claim that Him asking the Father to forgive them means anything other than He asked the Father to forgive them it is on to prove that.
I don’t mind you disagreeing with it, JOE, I just didn’t understand what it was you meant by ‘if you’re GOING to say’, as I didn’t have any follow-up comment to make.
Hermeneutical standards would be strained beyond the breaking point to infer from Jesus’ words on the cross could be universalized into a principle that God will always save those ignorant of the gospel message.
Hermeneutical standards would be strained beyond the breaking point to infer from Jesus’ words on the cross could be universalized into a principle that God will always save those ignorant of the gospel message.
Which is exactly what L’s meant. Of course, since she didn’t come out and say it, she can play coy little games and ask “Why, whatever do you mean?” when called on it.
It’s not my interpretation, DAVID. Joe did the ‘inferring’ of meaning.
You can ask Joe about his interpretation of what I wrote. He doesn’t speak for me.
He likes to ‘paraphrase’ what I write about sometimes, but he puts his own spin on it. Not sure why he does that. But I’m not offended, just as long as people know that is Joe’s thinking, not mine.
I couldn’t get angry with Joe, just a little sad when he says bad things to Debbie. He’s better than that.
Then, please L’s, tell us what is this mystical something they teach us…about the mind of Our Lord towards those in ignorance . . . and that is something of a Grace that we could not even begin to imagine, without His Coming to us.? Whatever is it, L’s, this true, spiritual meaning behind what He said?
Great point and it’s just one of the reasons I don’t believe this. The greater reasons is that I don’t believe the Bible teaches this, and Stephen and the Ethiopian is the greater example besides Christ’s command to go into all the world, and those who did in the Bible.
Hi JOE, how is it that Christ on the Cross teaches us ‘beyond’ what we could ever know without Him?
That ‘Grace’? Here’s a story about how it’s power can tranform us:
” It was at a church service in Munich that I saw him, the former S.S. man who had stood guard at the shower room door in the processing center at Ravensbruck. He was the first of our actual jailers that I had seen since that time. And suddenly it was all there – the roomful of mocking men, the heaps of clothing, Betsie’s pain-blanched face.
He came up to me as the church was emptying, beaming and bowing. “How grateful I am for your message, Fraulein.” he said. “To think that, as you say, He has washed my sins away!”
His hand was thrust out to shake mine. And I, who had preached so often to the people in Bloemendaal the need to forgive, kept my hand at my side.
Even as the angry, vengeful thoughts boiled through me, I saw the sin of them. Jesus Christ had died for this man; was I going to ask for more? Lord Jesus, I prayed, forgive me and help me to forgive him.
I tried to smile, I struggled to raise my hand. I could not. I felt nothing, not the slightest spark of warmth or charity. And so again I breathed a silent prayer. Jesus, I cannot forgive him. Give me Your forgiveness.
As I took his hand the most incredible thing happened. From my shoulder along my arm and through my hand a current seemed to pass from me to him, while into my heart sprang a love for this stranger that almost overwhelmed me.
And so I discovered that it is not on our forgiveness any more than on our goodness that the world’s healing hinges, but on His. When He tells us to love our enemies, He gives, along with the command, the love itself.”
excerpted from ‘The Hiding Place’ by Corrie ten Boom
No, L’s, that wasn’t the question. I didn’t ask what Christ on the Cross teaches us ‘beyond’ what we could ever know without Him?, I asked Then, please L’s, tell us what is this mystical something they teach us…about the mind of Our Lord towards those in ignorance.
So tell us, what does Christ asking the Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do, teach us about the mind of our Lord towards those in ignorance?
Perhaps, JOE, it was something about love. You make up your own mind, if you cannot see that in what He did.
There is a place where all the hatred stops, and all the pain, and all the meanness and blindness and darkness: He took it all on Himself. That place is at the Cross, Joe. And what does He ask of us in return? To love one another.
A false gospel? Not for me.
No, no, no, L’s. You don’t get to crawfish on this one. You didn’t say they MIGHT teach us or PERHAPS they teach us. You said they teach us. Now, in grammar, that is called a declarative statement. You were stating a fact.
So, what is this mystical meaning that they teach us, L’s.
Hi JOE,
Go back and read my ORIGINAL statement all in one piece.
The parts, without the whole, lose their contextual meaning, in isolation: my comment is meant to be read as a whole unit.
“There is a place where all the hatred stops, and all the pain, and all the meanness and blindness and darkness: He took it all on Himself.”
There is now no hatred, no pain, meanness or blindness? All that will stop when He comes again and will judge the world.
” That place is at the Cross, Joe. And what does He ask of us in return? To love one another. ”
What does He ask of us? To believe He is Messiah and the ONLY way to salvation. That was the point. The other stuff comes with that.
Well, there wouldn’t be pain, meanness, or blindness if hate mongerin’ fear mongers (i.e. real conservative Christians) would stop spewing hate speech and culture warring (i.e. proclaiming the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in scripture).
“You are confusing the process of salvation with the product of salvation.”
I think that ‘hope’ is more than the product of salvation.
God Himself has been called ‘the Hope of Israel’ for salvation by Jeremiah. The people of the OT longed for a Messiah, with great hope for a Savior. Faith in Christ is not isolated from the hope for His Coming, in the OT, and now, as we wait for His Coming again, in joyful hope.
“You are Israel’s hope, the one who saves it in times of trouble.”
Jeremiah looks to God as ‘the Hope of Israel’, its savior.
The defining of ‘hope’ in different ways can lead to disagreement.
But if the Person of Christ Himself IS our hope, we can agree that He is the One who saves us.
Some areas of difference will be in ‘soteriology’, of course.
‘How Christ saves’ is specifically seen a certain way by Southern Baptists. As to whether all SB’s are lock-step on how Christ saves, or if some now accept that Salvation, in its process, is part of the great Christian mystery, that is also something I am looking into.
“
No, its seen a certain way in the Bible – not just by Southern Baptists – that is a way to dismiss the biblical basis of the gospel and make it just an “interfaith discussion”
This is an important point I think. Dave’s comment 71. Christiane, by saying this is a Southern Baptist thing you are dismissing what the Bible is saying. I don’t see it as a Southern Baptist belief but what the Bible actually says which is the final authority. To make it a interfaith discussion is troubling to me.
Debbie, take a look at Dan Barnes’ post. I think he is asking certain questions there that may help me to understand better.
So far, not too many comments, but hopefully that will change.
One thing I have already learned is that ‘hope’ is not considered in the same way among Southern Baptists that it is in my Church and I had not known that. So I am learning new points of view. I need to learn not to ‘assume’ that certain beliefs are shared in common by all Christians.
You know Christiane, on the topic of the “hope within us” you have actually asked some very good questions and brought up a good topic. I take for granted these passages and have not studied them deeply until you began talking about it. That’s a good thing. It gets me into digging deeper. I had not thought of the word hope before and all that the Bible teaches on it. Till now.
I need to dig a little deeper to answer your points and your questions as I confess little knowledge on this particular word as used in the Bible, having always taken the meaning for granted with very little personal study.
The word hope as used in the original language means anticipation, expectation which is usually pleasureable.
John Gill commentary says hope as used in scripture is something future to be enjoyed, something unseen not yet realized, but “hoped for” or as used in the original language anticipated, expected, like gifts we look forward to opening on Christmas. We know they are there beyond a shadow of a doubt, we know we are going to have the object inside of the packages, but it is future, we don’t have them yet. We know the name on the packages are ours, but the gift is not actually in our hands and won’t be till Christmas.
For example: The Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31:31–33)
A new heart I will give you, and a new Spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26–27)
God promised in the Old Testament that he would write the commandments on the heart of man not in stone. He would change human beings hearts to follow his commands. The love you mentioned earlier was one of the things that would happen with this changed heart. The New Covenant would come by the power of the Holy Spirit onto us causing us to walk in his commandments.
The Apostle Paul preaches Christ in the ministry,power in the Holy Spirit and a new life transformed by this power of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of that is following God’s commands and love among other fruits. But it begins with Christ(as Lydia has already said). Genesis to Revelation all point to Christ. The Bible is all about pointing directly to Christ.
Paul’s hope was that God would fulfill this promise made in the Old Testament. God’s purpose is certain and the promise he gave in the Old Testament has begun. He moves and changes hearts wherever he pleases. He will cause us to obey his commands, he will give us love for others and the desire to give the Good News of Salvation and this will go beyond anything those in the Old Testament anticipated. Heaven will be beyond what we anticipate. If we think of Heaven and try and imagine what it will be like, what it will be like to see God with our eyes, to see Christ with our eyes, reality will be way beyond what we are anticipating or “the hope within us”.
We hope for the return of Christ, the raising of the dead as told to us in scripture. It is hope within us because it has not happened yet. It is future. We know it is going to happen, the Bible, which is God’s own words tell us it is going to happen. As those with Christ in us, we have not experienced his return, but the hope within us looks forward to the day. Make sense since I just wrote a book on here?
Christiane,
I agree that a person’s soteriology matters when using the word ‘hope’.
From my perspective, hope isn’t a word, I attritubute to salvation. I am saved, so I don’t have to ‘hope’ God has saved me. I know He has. To say that I hope He will save me, defies the Gospel and makes God a liar. There is nothing mysterious about it in my mind.
Am I perhaps misunderstanding you?
I think you are misunderstanding her, Katie. This is not a discussion of whether we have hope in Christ – we do. It is whether hope is a product of salvation (as the Bible says) or whether it is a means to salvation (as Christiane is seeming to claim).
I sometimes have a feeling what it must have been like at the Tower of Babel. (sigh)
Elizabeth Edwards died recently. She left a message to be shared with everyone, after she had gone ahead.
“And, yes, there are certainly times when we aren’t able to muster as much strength and patience as we would like. It’s called being human.
But I have found that in the simple act of living with hope, and in the daily effort to have a positive impact in the world, the days I do have are made all the more meaningful and precious.”
It was shared also at the funeral just how strong Elizabeth’s Christian hope was:
she wasn’t fearful of death, she saw it as a way to possibly be able to see her son Wade again. He had died as a teenager in a car accident, and she had the faith that she might see him again after her death, God willing. She had visited his grave everyday for two years until she became pregnant again, so deeply was he loved by his mother.
Maybe hope doesn’t seem very important until its the only thing that seems important. And if it keeps a dying woman from being afraid, then hope is a blessing from Our Lord that shows how perfect love is able to cast out fear.
I believe, in the way of my faith, that Elizabeth is with her son Wade, and that they are both in the Presence of the Lord.
I feel kinda like I’m trying to nail jello to a wall. The issue is not whether hope is a good thing, or whether God gives us hope. Yes and yes. No one disagrees.
But you said that hope was a saving act – “saved by hope.” Either explain that or tell us that its not what you meant.
Christiane – we are saved by hope.
Dave – explain that.
Christiane – hope is good.
Dave – okay, but explain that.
Christiane – hope is good.
Dave – AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!
Sorry, DAVID.
We who like cats are a difficult group. Calm down.
Don’t get a migraine. Let me work on this properly.
If you look at Romans 8:24 in different versions of the Bible,
here:
http://bible.cc/romans/8-24.htm
Note the wording in the King James versions. My Sothern Baptist grandmother left me a King James Bible, which I treasure, and it’s in there, too.
Frankly, I think that the phrase ‘in hope’ and ‘by hope’ have been used inter-changeably.
Now, do you feel better. I am sorry for your AAAARRRGGG, as I am now feeling very guilty. I’m really not THAT evil. I do, however, like cats.
But, but, but, Huggy Bear! Elizabeth Edwards and the Hiding Place! It’s all about feelings and experiences! Sad stories with heros who triumph over evil and wishful thinking and unicorns, lollipops, and rainbows
I have a great rainbow story. . . . .
For BESS,
The Hiding Place (fifteen sections on youtube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhVC9q_ZlDs
And in your rainbow story somehow you get led to Christ and it’s all totally biblical cause the Bible says “bow” for rainbow and it’s God’s covenant and all so people are all magically saved when they see the rainbow????
Wish I had time for 15 sections on Youtube. It’s a tear jerker.
Bess: If I were Chrsitiane and read your comments I would be incensed and go further away from what you are saying not closer.
‘the gift of tears’ is from the Holy Spirit . . .
the film is full of them, and there is much reading from the Bible in the film, too . . . it’s worth the time, Bess
Go get a handkerchief, put on a pot of tea, and watch
He had died as a teenager in a car accident, and she had the faith that she might see him again after her death, God willing.
Christiane, could you clarify for me. I read the words, God willing. Are you saying that none of us know if we go to heaven or not till we die? That we hope we do? If I am misreading, please feel free to correct me. If so I disagree on several reasons. I know I am going to heaven when I die. I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt. I know because Christ Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I don’t hope that he is, I know that he is and as in the death of Stephen found in Acts 7:54-8:1
Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth against him. But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.” But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together upon him. Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him; and the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. And Saul was consenting to his death.
1 Corinthians 15:54–57
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God comforts those of us who are born again at death.
4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,3
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
There is a special grace given to born again Christians by God at our death.
1 Peter 4:13
13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.
Christ himself has prepared us a place where we will be with him when we die and he told us about it in John 14:3.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Hi DEBBIE,
‘God willing’ is part of ‘The Lord’s Prayer’:
‘Thy Will Be Done, is not a request, but a statement of faith that expresses also trust in God completely, important especially when resting on that trust is so needed.
The word “hope” has many different meanings. One should search the location used in scripture, then take it back to the original Hebrew / Greek manuscripts to get the proper interpretation so it is not taken out of context… It means different things in different parts of scripture….. one meaning does not fit all..
Yes, just a bit . . .
but perhaps I am not communicating clearly to people who may define ‘hope’ in a different context . . . if that is the case, I am the one who is responsible for misunderstandings, Katie
If I look back to the whole of Salvation History, God never left people without hope. When Christ came, the hope that Christians received was a part of their endurance ‘to the end’, as they now were able to live ‘in Him’, and still in ‘the world’, but as sojourners, and people of ‘shalom’ who could live out their hope and faith and love in His Service among their neighbors:
the ones placed in their way who needed their help.
I can respect that ‘hope’ is seen in a different light by those of the Southern Baptist faith. Especially within the context of ‘faith’ and how salvation is accessed by faith.
I have to take responsibility if I am misunderstood in these discussions, Katie. But I can’t take responsibility for the comments of others, here. They own their own words.
I think that’s a fair way to see it.
Christiane,
I’m sincerely not trying to pick your words or your definition of words apart.
For me there is no hope for anyone on the planet except in Jesus. Once we are saved, ‘hope’ isn’t an active verb in my thoughts concerning salvation. I am saved and the scriptures reaffirm that. Anything that is not of faith is sin.
I’ll leave you good folks to figure out exactly what is going on in this thread, because I don’t have the brain-power to figure it out beyond what I’ve already said.
Blessings.
Christians are not saved by hope. No Christian says that salvation is by anything other than by grace through faith alone.
“Christiane January 9, 2011 at 1:43 pm
Hi DEBBIE,
Another insight into the ‘meaning’ of hope. The children born on 9/11 were called ‘The Faces of Hope’.
Yesterday one of the ‘Faces of Hope’ was killed in another tragedy, shot by a person filled with rage and anger, who also murdered a number of others, among them, a Christian minister. The little girl killed was Christina Green, aged nine.
I think what hope does for us is to give us some reason to look past the hatred, and not allow it to take over ‘who we are’. The children born on 9/11 were a sign of hope from God of the promise of something better for our country. Yesterday, one of them fell victim to hatred. But, in her memory, we are asked to recall her, not as the slain child, but as one of the ‘Faces of Hope’ born on 9/ll.
“The nine-year-old, who died at a local hospital shortly after the shooting, was born on Sept. 11, 2001, and featured in the book, “Faces of Hope: Babies Born on 9/11.”
God have mercy on all of us together.”
Debbie, since you understand Christiane, Perhaps you could explain what this has to do with what you have tried to explain to her about the topic of hope and how it relates to Christ with believers? That it is not a “means” to salvation, as Christiane has claimed.
What is she trying to communicate here?
I’m not sure, but I’m sure it’s probably something aloing the lines of “It’s all the conservatives fault.”
“Christiane – we are saved by hope.
Dave – explain that.
Christiane – hope is good.
Dave – okay, but explain that.
Christiane – hope is good.
Dave – AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!”
Not defining it works…Just ask Obama.
Dave, was a good topic, though it got hijacked and a bit off topic, now to bring it back..
In the original post I was hanging in there with you agreeing until the end… I don’t know what kind of fence you want to call it, but my bible study has put a fence between me and others. It was not my doing, but what I received as the “truth” taught by Christ himself.. if anyone believes as Christ taught, they are fenced in with Him, if not they are outside the fence….
Dave you stated -
“Figuring out eschatology can be like wandering through a maze. Premillennial, Amillennial, Postmillennial, Pretribulation, Posttribulation, Preterist – it can be confusing and overwhelming. But there is a core of doctrine that all orthodox Christians agree on.”
and
“The rest is detail. We can disagree on the specifics. But we must affirm the basic facts of the Second Coming of Christ.”
Well, I disagree with the above statement. It is an oxymoron. The Bible is specific period. If we believe the Bible then we “must” only agree with the interpretation taken in context as Christ taught. The Bible DOES NOT TEACH a multiple choice in regards to eschatology. The Bible teaches “one way” period. When one chooses to take the views of Premillennial, Amillennial, Postmillennial, Pretribulation, Posttribulation, Preterist and give the believer a choice as so it was a “buffet” that is where Christ mentions “false prophets” will abound everywhere in the “end times”.
“Here I stand. I can do no other.”
We need Christians today with the courage to say, “Here I stand.” Yes, we may cause division when we hold faithfully to these truths, but it is a division that honors God.
So Dave, Here I stand, I can do no other….
For all those that teach the “false doctrine” and “fly away doctrine of rapture” are those mentioned in the Bible as false prophets. The rapture doctrine is “Satan’s message to deceive Believers”. All will face “Satan as he comes at the sixth trump and the “true Christ” at the seventh trump, unless one physically dies and departs before that time…..
This is the message all through the bible, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Revelations.. Yes, accept Christ as Lord and Savior, but just as important, to not worship the false Christ, Satan, the devil, and to maintain to the END..
The mark of the beast in the forehead is “your brain” your “knowledge” to be deceived by Satan’s false message, and that false message is the Rapture….
Tell me Dave, why was “rapture” a Latin word, not in the original manuscripts, not ever taught before 1830? If it is truth, why was it never taught before? Because it is a lie! A lie straight from Satan to deceive “believers” in Christ.
So there is a picket fence built between those that believe this lie, and those that believe otherwise.
It is the mission of the Elect in the end times to bear witness to this “lie” and false teaching….
Now I know that is a lot to swallow from someone “C.B.” refers to as a “Theological Dwarf” but I can handle it….
The Bible was not written so as to have a seminary degree to understand what God wants us to understand.
All in all, our Father is a “just” God, and ALL will have a proper opportunity to be judged “fairly” whenever that time comes.
I do not know all, but I KNOW the ONE who does….. therein lies my HOPE.
Judgment begins at the pulpit! There is but “ONE” judge.
Do you really want to make premillennialism a Brick Wall Doctrine? Then I guess I’m a heretic. Won’t be the first time someone said that.
First of all, there are many theological terms we use that are not in scripture. They are descriptive terms. Trinity is a biblical concept though not a biblical word. I believe the pretribulational rapture is taught in scripture, though I understand the term Rapture is a descriptive, not biblical term.
There is solid evidence that your assertion that the “rapture” was not taught prior to 1830 is more a myth than a fact.
All I can tell you is 2 things:
1) I have spent many hours studying this (desiring to understand God’s Word, not to deceive anyone) and have come to the viewpoint that the Pre-trib position best describes the facts of the texts throughout the Bible. I’d be glad to send you my “book” to explain my position.
My only point is that I arrived at this through Bible Study, not through some sort of desire to deceive the church.
2) I recognize that people who believe God’s Word and love it as much as I do also disagree with my position on this.
I am fine with godly people disagreeing with my viewpoint. I, frankly, resent the fact that you put my position in the category of heresy. I think you are wrong to do so.
Here’s the question: Can someone believe in the Pre-trib rapture and still believe in salvation by grace through faith? Can someone believe in Post-trib, Post-mill, Amil doctrine and still believe the gospel? Yes.
So to make Brick Wall doctrine out of eschatology is wrong, as far as I am concerned.
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