I was discussing with Jim Elliff last night via Twitter about the amount of debt myself and a lot of other seminary students allow themselves to go into in order to get their degree. He and I agree that it is a shame we have a system that allows and sometimes forces students to get into 20,000-40,000+ dollars worth of debt in order to get their degree.
Something needs to be done on this issue. I have that much figured out, but last night my mind wandered about what could be done in order to help with this problem. What can we as the Southern Baptist Convention do in order to help our future pastors get their Master’s degrees without getting tens of thousands of dollars in debt? It could also be said, What would George Mueller do?
Here is one idea that I had, but I have no idea if it would work. This post is not me screaming for change and for people to pick up my idea and run with it. This post is to get feedback about this one idea and to get other ideas from all you in the SBC about what we can do.
What if we changed the Cooperative Program, a little? For those of you who don’t know- every student that attends a SBC seminary and attends a SBC church gets half of their education paid for by the cooperative program. First, let me say THANKS to whoever first started that. If it wasn’t for that, I would be twice as much in debt as I already am. But what if we did this a little different? What if we stopped allowing the CP to pay for students school, but rather had a separate offering just for that purpose? In this case, the CP would be able to send more money to missions overseas and here in the States. When could we do the offering? June.
We would then have 3 annual SBC offerings- Annie Armstrong(local missions) Lottie Moon(foreign missions) and James Boyce(seminary students).
The James Boyce offering could be done in June. This way we could have all the money at least a month before classes started. Then we would know how much money was gathered and how many students would fit the requirements to receive some of the offering. In this way, the amount that is paid for is determined by how much money is given. Some years students might only get 30% of their school paid for, but some years they could get almost everything paid for. With this plan they would still find out more than a month in advance how much money they still need after the offering. I know some are thinking this won’t help the debt problem. It might not, but I think it could. What if we emphasized that offering enough that the amount was competitive with the other two offerings we do? Im not sure of the numbers, but I think it would take care of A LOT of the debt problems we are putting on our seminary students.
What could some of the requirements be?
1) For the sake of organization we could require students to be accepted and enrolled in classes a month before classes began.
2) Attend a SBC seminary and be active in a SBC church.
What are your thoughts? Is the James Boyce offering a good idea?
{ 34 comments… read them below or add one }
Well, wasn’t the cooperative program created to avoid having a special offereing for a bunch of different things? I’m not saying there aren’t some things that need to be tweeked and made more effective but I don’t know if adding another speicial offering would really have the effect you’re wanting. I also think June would be a not so good time to do it–summer attendance is usually down. However, it’s not like I’ve got a better idea.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Spurgeon and the Downgrade–First steps to heresy. =-.
Offer incentives to help with tuition debt not covered by current CP if the student will give 5 years in mission service after graduation either as international missionary, church planter, or staff person in a mission situation. Enrollment, assessment, and approval is on entry to the seminary. Availability would be to students coming from local Baptist congregations of their high school years. I know – some capable people will be missed. Make an exception for those converted to Christ during college, but not for transfer growth.
And of course, if there is an offering, it should be named for L.R. Scarborough, Bertha Smith, or some other deceased luminary in missions/evangelism.
This is similar to systems used by both military and public education. We’ve adapted just about everything else from the corporate world, why not something that will be useful?
I thought of James Boyce since he was the one to start the first SBC seminary. It seems to fit!
Did Boyce start the “first SBC seminary”? I thought that SBTS was started in Greenville, SC, without support from the SBC and later asked the SBC to adopt them into the convention. I also thought that SWBTS was started by B.H. Carrol in Waco as part of Baylor University, and later was adopted into the SBC. I think that the first seminary actually started by the SBC was NOBTS in 1917? SBTS and SWBTS were autonomous and independent seminaries before being adopted into the SBC. Is that incorrect?
I hereby offer myself up for 5 years missionary service in exchange for paying off my debts. Sending agencies: feel free to contact me.
.-= Jason Smathers´s last blog ..Sanctification is a process =-.
As a fairly recent graduate of SBTS (2006), I’m having trouble understanding the problem here. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man, here’s what I did in seminary: I lived in cheap campus housing (followed by cheap off-campus housing), drove a cheap old car, bought my clothes at Wal-Mart, got a job, worked hard, and finished in 3 1/2 years with everything paid for. Seminary is already dirt cheap for Southern Baptists, and from my experience it’s possible to pay for it without going into debt.
In addition to that, the church I now serve is already burned out on special offerings. It’s not just Lottie and Annie. There are special state offerings, love offerings for guest musicians, fund raisers for the youth group, a building fund, people requesting funds for volunteer mission trips, and on and on from there. Honestly, if our church was asked to do one more special offering, we would probably ignore it. I suspect that we are not unique in this respect.
I benefited immensely from my education at Southern, so I appreciate the sentiment. But, I just don’t think there is much of a need here.
Dan,
Just curious… Are you married and do you have kids? If so, well done! If not, it is much more difficult when you do have a wife and kids.
I am in fact married, and I do have a son. So thanks for your congratulatory words. However, I think you were probably asking whether I had a wife and kids while I was in seminary. Except for my final semester, I did not. So your point is more valid than I originally thought. Maybe need-based scholarships should take family into consideration?
Just for the record, though, any single guy who goes into debt for an SBC seminary education should be given a dunce cap and sent to the corner.
Dan,
I agree with your original comment. I was married, and my wife gave birth to two of my children while in seminary. I worked two part time jobs, and went to school full time. And, my family and I were very active in our local Church during this time. I actually taught SS classes and DT classes, and I was at visitation every week.
I graduated and didnt owe a penny.
David
Ditto’s to seminary with kids. It is more common than you might think. It is also very hard and equally very rewarding. My account was zero when I graduated. I can’t imagine being $40,000 in debt. Something’s definitely wrong with that picture (unless you are counting your college debt).
or train pastors in a local church setting where no debt would be incurred.
That’s coming.
I don’t think it will fly. This would be viewed as one more chip away in the Cooperative Program. Left out of the post are other special offerings: state missions, associational missions, mission trips, youth camp, special guest preachers and singers, Gideons, World Hunger, Christmas Shoeboxes, etc. I doubt many would be excited about yet another special offering.
If we did have seminary students as another offering, you might end up getting less than what you get now. I think most would consider this area already adequately covered in the Cooperative Program.
On the other hand, I can sympathize. I also struggled financially through ETBU and SWBTS. Praise God for the help from the Cooperative Program (state & national). Thank God also for special scholarships, and individuals, and home churches that are willing to help out.
David R. Brumbelow
.-= David R. Brumbelow´s last blog ..Saved By The Sinner’s Prayer =-.
So here is what I am getting- No more special offering?
David,
I would say that comparatively it is pretty adequately covered. Getting 50% paid is very good. Yet, there are still hundreds of students fetting over 20,000 dollars in debt with half of their tuition paid. When you have a family it is near impossible to work 40- take 12 hours of classes and still be an adequate husband and father. Also, most jobs that seminary students get don’t pay enough to pay for all of seminary plus bills without taking out a loan.
I can so relate to this subject… I had three children while in seminary (two born while actually in school) worked about 35 hours a week, worked on church staff part time and was a grader for my Greek prof and still graduated in 3 1/2 years. I did go in to some debt. Health care costs killed us.
My two cents and two thoughts…
1) While we’re talking GCR, let’s either abolish Guidestone or make it into a true ministry and give better health care rates and plans, starting with students!
2) Don’t allow another married man to stay in seminary if he is purposefully unemployed while making his wife work full time. I got sick of seeing these guys “serving the Lord” while their kids were in daycare and their wives were working. I had three jobs and a 3.8 and spent time with my family. I want to see men step up and serve their families while in school. After all, you’re in seminary for you, not your wife and kids.
I don’t agree with a third offering, but thanks for thinking outside the box and giving us something to think about.
Bill
I went to Seminary and there met the woman that I married. We both finished our degrees. We worked part time jobs until my wife graduated, I pastored a small church and we lived in cheap seminary housing. We had a baby and left seminary with no debt at all (and not much stuff either!). I did not even know that there were scholarships available from my home state. My wife did have some WMU assistance from her home state. While we were students we participated in a summer mission through our seminary and the HMB that paid a little but we had to keep paying rent for our cheap seminary apartment so that we would not lose it for the following semester.
Many of our friends lived cheaply as well. We all worked jobs and took too many hours. Many of us were very active in church. It was a struggle. It was a great time!
I am thankful for the CP and I think that the current structure is just fine.
I’m floored. $20-$40k debt for an MDiv?
Yes, it has been 20 years since receiving mine (SWBTS MDiv ‘89), but I left Ft. Worth with $0 debt. And this was with a wife and two children. We lived in cheap housing, our summer vacations were church building trips, I took four years to complete the three year program, and I swept floors, emptied trash cans, and cleaned toilets 40 hours a week for a local school district.
No, we don’t need any additional offerings.
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..I just bet… =-.
And to add some more details based upon some of the above comments:
My wife didn’t work, except for the Mother’s Day Out program at church, we were very active in our local church, and the kids went to the same school that I worked at so I had plenty of face time with them. Yes, it was tough studying for tests and writing papers late at night, but God is good.
Here was a normal day: Get up very early, go to the RAC for lap swimming and a shower, eat a bowl of instant oatmeal in the SUB, go to classes until noon or 1:00, eat my lunch while driving to work, put in 8 hours with my wife delivering my dinner at work, go home, study, sleep, and repeat. I did not take summer school, and my last two semesters saw 17 hours each.
It appeared to me that the majority of my peers were in the same boat, and we didn’t find any of this extraordinary.
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..I just bet… =-.
I have a completely different idea – maybe I should flesh it out for a separate post sometime. Let’s put seminary students in local churches where they are active in ministry and helped out by churches. The classes are done online with perhaps a residential requirement once or twice a year, much like D.Min programs.
When I graduated seminary I had a head full of theology and a lot of ideas, most of which worked only in the ivy halls of academia. Of course, that was before the internet (and air and water), so my idea wouldn’t work. But I think I would have done very well to work in a church and learn my theology while actively ministering on a staff.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Yankees Tie…The-e-e-e Yankees Tie! =-.
Dave,
I like your idea better than mine.
Oh, BTW, I completely agree with Dan that our Churches are “offering’d to death.” We give to so many special offerings during the year that I feel like a fund raiser sometimes. And, this is with the CP.
I will not initiate another offering in my Church. My people are just offered out.
David
Some thoughts:
1) The current system does not “force” anyone into debt, family or not. If anyone chooses to go into debt (whether it be a small amount or a large amount) for seminary, it is his/her choice.
2) It is possible to go through seminary with a wife and kid(s) without going into debt, just don’t expect to be done in 3 years. It will take me five (I’m intending to graduate in May). You can take six classes a year for approximately $4000. That is the same as about one car payment per month. That is certainly doable.
3) “Some years students might only get 30% of their school paid for, but some years they could get almost everything paid for.”
Very unlikely. CP giving (and the AA/LM special offerings) doesn’t fluctuate like that on given years. I can virtually guarantee that you would be paying more than you are paying now.
4) “The James Boyce offering could be done in June. This way we could have all the money at least a month before classes started.”
First, there is no way the money would be distributed that quickly. Second, I’m not committing to any school where I don’t know how much I’m paying for tuition ahead of time. This simply isn’t realistic, practical, or financially responsible.
5) “For those of you who don’t know- every student that attends a SBC seminary and attends a SBC church gets half of their education paid for by the cooperative program. First, let me say THANKS to whoever first started that.”
I’m not sure if you meant this particular statement too seriously, so I’m sorry if I’m reading too much into it, but I propose that it is pretty much always a bad idea to change a system when we do not know the history of the system.
Sorry for all the negativity, but I think the present seminary system works pretty well on the financial side of things.
.-= Joseph Gould´s last blog ..The Pen is Mightier than the Sword … But Not the Keyboard? =-.
A very thoughtful proposal, and lots of equally thoughtful feedback! I graduated with an M.Div. last spring and am currently under consideration for a call to pastor a church near Louisville. My own experience includes working 80 hours a week at two jobs for seven years while in seminary (older married guy, several kids in the picture), being blessed with a Proverbs 31 wife who also has a career and works very hard, driving his and her ‘97 cars up to the present, no vacations farther than a state park two hours from here….and we’ve been active in local church service, the GPA was fine and God has certainly blessed the fact we’ve tithed. We aggressively paid down our non-seminary debts over the past decade and are now about a year away from having no debts of any kind other than what’s left on the mortgage, and we also have retirement nest eggs for the distant future.
I’m friends with seminary students and professors in other likeminded denominations and compare notes, and we do have a pretty good deal as Southern Baptists. Some of those guys in the other parts of the body of Christ will be in debt the rest of their lives, unless pastors’ salaries rise to the level of NBA stars.
I like the special offering idea but suggest proceeding with caution for the reasons already given plus, let’s be honest here, Southern is not particularly popular across the board in Kentucky and guys like me who are from the Bluegrass State have had a really good deal enjoying *national* support through the CP’s half-price break that might not have necessarily been as forthcoming at the state level.
My educated guess is that you’d get pretty strong support for offerings for this down in Dixie (wow, can you imagine passing the plate at Jimmy Scroggins’ church in mega-prosperous Palm Beach, for example) but the overall support in the Bluegrass State would be rather tepid, with notable exceptions, of course. Any fellow Kentuckians want to chip in with their thoughts on that assessment?
I agree we have too many special offering when state convention and other groups are added to the mix.
The current structure is excellent, IMO. I think something that could help even further would be churches making it their responsibility to sponsor students that come from/are involved in their churches.
If you have a guy that grew up in your church and is called to ministry, then give him a scholarship of $500-1500 a semester. Similar thing if you have a seminary student involved in ministry. I’d like to see the churches step up and see that as part of their role in calling out the called.
I don’t think a special offering is a good idea to replace the CP, but it would be great if local churches took up an offering to help out students from their congregations. I think I’ll talk to the elders at our church about doing just that, seeing that three quarters of our church is made up of seminary students.
I’m 40, married, with 7 children. I work 50+ hours per week at as a finance manager at a company here in Louisville. My wife stays home and homeschools our children. It’s taken me about 7 years to get about half-way through the M.Div at SBTS, but we have done it with zero debt except the mortgage.
Some semesters I get frustrated that it looks like it will take nearly two decades to finish my degree. However, I then remind myself that God has first called me to be faithful to Him, then a godly husband and father, and then comes seminary. For me, the trade off between a 3 yr M.Div and my family falling apart or going into debt would be foolish. I must just trust that the God who called me has a plan to equip me for His service in His time and in His way.
I’m not sure how they do it, but Liberty Baptist Seminary manages to offer 100% free tuition to seminary students through the DMIN who are in LBF supporting (Liberty Baptist Fellowship) churches. The support minimum is not much, and each pastor on staff receives a free education. Maybe someone should talk with Jonathan Falwell.
Maybe there is a way that such a plan could be incorporated into the SBC, to include not only pastoral staff but those called to the seminary?
The James Boyce offering is intriguing, but the idea fails. As one commenter wrote (unfortunately, I have not been able to read the majority of the comments), the CP was founded so we would not have this problem. But to comment on the blog itself.
True, a large number of seminarians are in debt in staggering amounts. This prohibits them from serving on the IMB and more effectual ministry in general. Obviously, this is undesirable. But what to blame it on?
Well, I don’t think we need to blame it on anyone. I think our churches are doing plenty by whopping off half of tuition. Could they do more? Sure, but I think we all agree that 50% scholarships are hard to come by. Since all that’s required is active membership in a local Southern Baptist Church, it’s got to be one of the easiest scholarships to achieve. Thus, it’s not the churches fault.
Could it be the Convention’s fault? Could we funnel more money into the seminaries and less in other areas? Sure, but the Convention is directing the churches’ funds to absorb a large chunk of tuition. The Convention could be more streamlined (thus the GCR discussion), but I think there’s a point at which it’s no longer beneficial to either student or Convention. What if we paid 99% of tuition? That could be good, but probably not. After all, free degrees would cause a multitude of nightmares, not to mention the perceivable lack of scholastic integrity among students. I think our Convention’s doing enough.
Could it be the students’ fault? Here I run a very grave risk of over-generalization. But let me say that there are a number of students who are not fiscally responsible. Here’s the deal. It’s somewhat like being offered free airfare to any vacation destination of your choice in the world. Once there (we’ll say a safari in Kenya, East Africa), you take your tours and fall in all the usual tourist traps. Upon arrival at home, you complain that you’re massively in debt. While you’re thankful for the free airfare and experiences of a lifetime, you’re happiness is dulled by the large debt you contracted while frolicking the plains.
True, all analogies breakdown, and this one certainly does. But do you see my point? A large part of school debt is in the hands of the students themselves. Let me hasten to point out that I do not accuse the blogger of this in anyway–I couldn’t possibly for I don’t know his situation. But as an overall, many precautions could be done on the part of the students to avoid school debt. What about working multiple jobs? What about cutting back on classes? What about the unthinkable–laying off a semester from classes in order to work more? Such may not be God’s will for a particular person, but I cannot help but think it is for some.
The CP is a glorious system. It’s not the best possible, but it is the best available. It’s the best I can think of. If there were a better one, I would be first to recommend it.
As for another concern previously raised, I fear a breakdown of the CP would result in churches giving to their pet agencies. When that happens, seminaries like Golden Gate and Midwestern, our smaller sisters, will undoubtedly close down due to lack of funding. We are a Convention and can be who we are through the CP. To undermine it is to undermine the Convention.
Joshua,
I appreciate the comment.
As I have read the comments I have come to agree that another offering isnt the best idea because that is why the CP was created… Why if a CP if we are going to have an offering for every major thing that comes up?
At the same time, I think you go over the top when you say, “undermining the CP is to undermine the Convention.” We dont exist because of the CP. We merely use the CP to help fulfill our goals. But the CP should be constantly scrutinized and we should always be looking for ways to better the convention, even when that includes tweaking the CP.
Bill, I saw your early comment from yesterday evening. I respectively disagree: I think GuideStone is a very good and effective ministry. Yes, healthcare is catching all of us. But that’s not GuideStone’s fault. Under the stellar leadership of Dr. OS Hawkins, they now care for our retired pastors and their wives, as well as provide basic life insurance to our seminarians: for free. They’ll never provide care for free. But our seminaries will never provide education for free.
I am certainly not saying school will be or even should be FREE. I would say that school shouldn’t be completely free.
But, how much cheaper would it be if we didn’t build such ornate buildings? What if we built building that were filed under “good enough?” If I was a seminary trustee I would find it important to cut costs and keep tuition down as much as possible.
Yes, I think we all agree that out right free education would be far more harmful than good. But as to what extent individual seminaries can streamline? Well, that’s a bit hard to dissect. How many mission trips to cut? What about the study programs the one I’m with does? How much campus security can we cut? What if we drop the elevators, or all the hedges and flowers? True, we could do all these things. But to a certain extent they’re necessary. For better or for worse, at least a modest show is beneficial for incoming students. As per trustees, well, they’ve worked with the administrations of several seminaries for no tuition increases this year. That’s meant the release of a number of staff positions at some of those schools, but the administrations found it worth it. A million variables come in to play. We could all streamline, and we should where prudent, but we can very easily fall off the cliff.
I wonder if we should be questioning whether an M.Div should be the standard degree for SBC pastors. If the CP is already paying for half, why not just cut out the least useful half and provide the rest for free? Get our seminary students back out into the field in half the time, with less debt, and more time to get a different sort of education, on the job.
Major themes of the bible. Developing a workable hermeneutic. A class on preaching / teaching. And some counseling.
Just an idea.
Bill,
I do think the MDiv is drawn out a little to extensively. While I like History I don’t think 4 classes of church and Baptist history are all that necessary.
Languages, Theology, Hermeneutics, Leadership, Counseling, and Preaching is all that is really needed. (that I can think of right now, if I missed something dont blast me!)
I’ll start off saying that since I’m only 15, I’d know little about MDiv requirements, though living in the seminary atmosphere for most of my life, I do know a little.
Baptist history is a necessity. And I think 4 classes (which seminary, by the way, is that?) is reasonable. Our graduates must know their history as Baptists. As for streamlining the MDiv? Some programs are over-stuffed, but also keep in mind the seminaries have to answer to accreditation agencies such as SACS. Yes, of course accreditation is a necessary evil, but it is necessary.