As most of you know, Fred Winters, pastor of First Baptist Church in Maryville, Illinois was shot and killed about 20 minutes into the first service a few Sundays ago. Since then many pastors and churches have been trying to figure out how to prevent that from happening in their own church.
In the past this has not been a major issue for churches, but I would be my guess that more and more churches are considering defensive, precautionary measures.
This post is mainly to hear from our readers. We want to know what your church is doing, if anything, in order to prevent something like this happening where you worship. Has your church hired undercover police officers or security? Does your church have a set system on how elders are to respond in this type of situation? Would or does your church allow people to carry concealed weapons in order to protect the pastor and congregation?
If your church is not taking any precautionary measures, but you would like to see your church and others do more in order to protect themselves, what ideas do you have?
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I’m not sure what our church is doing. That being said, I try to be aware of any suspicious behavior and would gladly take someone out if duty called.
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Other than making our churches as difficult to get into as airports, what is there we can really do? We open our doors to whomever walks in. We welcome them. If a pastor receives death threats, or is in involved in some kind of controversial activity that draws controversy, maybe security steps should be taken. I know some of the bigger churches have armed security, but that is not realistic in most churches. Nor is it necessary.
And, as tragic as the shooting was recently, is security really an issue? How many churches meet each week in America? How many shootings have we had in the last 10 years.
It would make more sense for us to prepare for a tornado, or some kind of disastrous weather situation.
I do not mean to make light of the situation. It was tragic. But it is very possible to overreact to something like this.
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Our security plan is the Lord. Nothing occurs without His consent. We may not understand why Pastor Winters was killed, but our ways are not God’s ways. He
allowed it to happen.
I agree with Dave Miller. I doubt that focusing on self-protection is warranted, or even healthy. We’re called to die to ourselves. I realize that doesn’t mean abandoning common sense; at the same time, I think it does mean abandoning an obsession with personal safety. Excessive concern for personal safety would have doomed the missionary movement launched by William Carey and others.
Barry Wallaces last blog post..What difference does a church covenant make?
We have many Marines in our church… nuff said
Seriously, though, I doubt, like others have stated, that there really can be anything done as far as security goes. I don’t have a problem if there is security in areas such as Children’s Church or Nursery or Sunday School rooms but as far as some place large like the santuary or parking lot I just doubt the ability of anyone (undercover or not) being able to stop someone from fulfilling any evil process they may have in mind.
We choose to go to church. We have no persecution in our land that nears any sort of persecution and life or death situations like many other countries do. Overall, we are still truly blessed!!
Have a blessed Sunday!
Sallie
Dave and Barry,
Although I agree, for now, do you not think the issue could get worse and that we should be proactive and do something before it gets completely out of hand?
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Vote for Evangelical Village!
It occurs to me that this type of security issue is much more likely as a church grows in size. A smaller church for instance has a lot greater likelihood of noticing an unfamiliar person, particularly one who may be acting “odd or threatening,” whereas the larger a church grows, the easier it will be for a “potential threat” to blend in with the crowd so to speak.
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I have a hard time with the idea that the Lord wanted Pastor Winters killed. It fits so well inside your theology, very simplistic. He willed it, so that’s it. Sorry, if we have the God given stress reaction to deal with violence, than I think God expects us to use it. If a terrorist threatens a school, are we supposed to say that if something bad happens it must be God’s will? Would you stand outside while the terrorist threatens your child and pray for it not to happen. I don’t think you would. I wouldn’t if it is my child. I will fight anyone who threatens my child or wife anywhere. God wants us to oppose evil where we find it. He expects us to use our common sense. Church security doesn’t have to be oppressive, in fact a good church security ministry is hardly even seen. It is made up of people who understand crisis, react well under pressure, and they are the greatest ambassadors a church can have.
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Matt Svoboda;
Are you suggesting we arm our deacons or use law enforcement officers who are members to carry concealed guns/
Jeff,
I agree that this issue is more for larger churches.
Dr. Foltz,
I am not really suggesting anything. I am merely asking questions.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Vote for Evangelical Village!
I don’t think we should overreact. Where does our faith lay? Again, missionaries should be our model. They face as much if not more danger than we do at home, yet I have never heard of them having armed security nor have I heard of them carrying a weapon. I think Fred Winters death, as tragic as it was, is a great testimony for Christ. His widow and her words are still in my mind.
Start arming yourself or too much protection, and people will not come, I think it also dampens the message of the Gospel. It would for me anyway.
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
For me personally, I would rather die in teaching the Bible, than being wary of every person that may seem strange, or looking over my shoulder all the time. I wouldn’t want to do anything that would not have me live my life fully, even in church, or possibly stop a person from coming to church. I don’t want guns or weapons in or near my church.
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
Debbie,
If you are a pacifist than I can understand where you might be coming from. If you are not a pacifist than you are leaving out the differences of the context that we in America and missionaries live in.
For example, in America if a person broke into my house with a weapon I would do anything I could to take him out. If I had to kill him, I would, in a heart beat. In Congo, my response would be completely different because of the context that I was in. In America, the message of the gospel would not be negatively effected by me defending my family and myself. In Congo, it would. Therefore, it would be foolish to not defend you family as long as the gospel would not be negatively effected and it would be foolish to kill even in self defense if it would damage the message of the gospel.
I think it is foolish and wrong to not defend your family if you can when it wouldnt do harm to the message of the gospel.
The same goes for the church. It is foolish to not take precautionary measures to defend yourself in America. The lost world, in America, would think of the church as foolish and cowardly if we did nothing to defend ourselves. I am not saying have a bunch of armed uniformed people in the front of the church. I am not saying that at all.
But lets not put a target on our forehead and invite to be shot. Your line of thinking is pacifistic. I am not sure whether or not you claim to be a pacifist, but your arguments on this post would imply that you are. Pacifism is not biblical. Because it is not biblical it is unrealistic as well.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Vote for Evangelical Village!
“I don’t want guns or weapons in or near my church.”
Let’s not be naive, they are already right across the street.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Vote for Evangelical Village!
Matt: I am not a pacifist. I am a realist. What is our faith in however. Guns? Not in my church(or at least I hope not.) When security and guns begin to be a part of the services, I will be leaving and worshiping at home. I’m not so sure God would be at church anyway.
The guns can stay across the street. I don’t think my willing to die without shooting back at church would be considered unrealistic. At least I hope not. If so, then count me as stubborn and unrealistic.
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
The lost world, in America, would think of the church as foolish and cowardly if we did nothing to defend ourselves
Let them.
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
“I think it is foolish and wrong to not defend your family if you can when it wouldnt do harm to the message of the gospel.”
I’ve never been to the Congo, so I don’t know how Congoans feel about self-defense there, but I agree with your quote above. I think the gospel is our primary concern in every circumstance. C.S. Lewis addressed this issue well in “Why I’m Not a Pacifist.”
Justice and standing up against evil is not counter to the gospel. However, any time we threaten to use or use force to defend or advance that gospel or a group of people gathered in the name of the gospel, I think we’re probably straying. Let’s not forget that all martyrdom and persecution could be reacted against with revolution and it could seem like standing up for good and protecting the innocent. In reality, it’s just worldly methods of dealing with worldly problems. Quoting from the apocryphal Mullins 2:1: “You know Peter put away his sword… he won’t fight no more… love has come and it’s given me hope to carry on.” I refuse to hope in a chunk of supersonic metal to protect the work of God.
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Glen; God allowed it to happen-His permissive will. He is in full control.
Debbie; our fore-fathers-pilgrims, and pioneers took guns to church each time
the doors opened. If you took the right to bear arms away only the criminals, terrorists, murderers, thuggs and theifs would have them. The police cannot defend all the people, and be everywhere all the time.
Quoting Darby:
Let’s not forget that all martyrdom and persecution could be reacted against with revolution and it could seem like standing up for good and protecting the innocent.
That’s exactly right. I recommend John Piper’s sermon series “Risk and the Cause of God”
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/56/
Barry Wallaces last blog post..What difference does a church covenant make?
Matt,
My heart goes out to Pastor Winters’ family and church. My prayers are with them.
We can thank God that for the most part our churches are safe. Considering the number of churches in America, these kinds of attacks are very rare.
Having said that, I have no problem at all with guns at church whether they be concealed carry or on-duty or off-duty police officers. Guns are not the problem. The question is, are the guns in the hands of the good guys or the bad guys? If the guns are in the hands of good, capable people – there is no problem. The bad guys with guns are usually only stopped by the good guys with guns.
If someone starts shooting in a church, my advice, for whatever it’s worth, is to do your best to stop him any way and every way you can.
David R. Brumbelow
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/us/15guns.html
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_9568980
Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..Why Didn’t Paul Quote Jesus?
I find it interesting that across our nation, Southern Baptists are studying Nehemiah during Sunday morning Bible study through the Family Life series of lessons. Since I don’t believe in coincidence, I find the timing of our study relevant to the issue raised on this blog. I know there are many opinions regarding the degree and type of security to employ in our churches. Rather than analyzing opinions, I turned to Scripture. My basic question was, “Is there scriptural evidence where God is clearly seen as Sovereign, but His people still take up arms to defend themselves?” My search led me to the exact place of our current study—Nehemiah 4:8-23.
There are several interesting verses worthy of closer examination. The people prayed to God seeking His counsel and help and they posted guards to meet the threat of attackers (v. 9). The enemy strategized the attack—they would come into the midst of the people— “we will be right there among them and will kill them and put an end to their work,” (v. 11). The work of the Israelites was commissioned by God—they were to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Nehemiah takes action, stationing some of the people at various vulnerable spots along the wall, posting them by families, with their swords, spears, and bows (v. 13). Then Nehemiah, God’s appointed leader for this task, stands up and declares, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes,” (v. 14).
God is recognized here as sovereign, great and awesome, but the people were commanded to defend what God had raised up…His people and His city. From that day forward, the workers carried on God’s work, while they carried weapons. When they heard the trumpet, it was the rallying cry to come and join in the defense of an attack. Yet the cry that accompanied that trumpet blast was, “Our God will fight for us!” (v. 20)
This story in scripture illustrates a steadfast belief that God is sovereign. There was never any doubt about His control over the destiny of His people. Yet, after prayerfully seeking God’s counsel, God’s man implemented an ingenious plan in order to carry on God’s work while protecting the workers. There was no fear, no chaos. There was a plan, and it worked beautifully.
I also find in Psalm 127:1, “Unless the Lord builds the house, it’s builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain.” God watches over His people…He is sovereign. Yet there are watchmen and they are standing guard under God’s sovereign authority. Throughout scripture, including the New Testament, there were temple guards. Guarding our churches now is neither reactive nor unspiritual.
My God has always fought for me; I’ve felt His sovereign hand on my life protecting and delivering me on many occasions. Whether there are armed guards in my church or not, my life is in his hands. But I do not believe God asks us to abandon reason, responsibility, or all of our defenses because we congregate to worship. My security is in God, and God alone and I trust that He is leading my leaders to defend His work and His people.
Wake up people! We are in the end times. Things are not going to get better. God expects us to use common sense in the protection of His people and property. After 9/11, you think we get the picture. Evil both physical and spiritual are being brought against the church. Churches are no longer safehavens, but under attack from inside and outside forces. It’s time to be proactive instead of reactive!
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