Once upon a time, Southern Baptists believed the church had a mission. We held that our aim and authority came from the mouth of Jesus himself when he said, “Go and make disciples of all nations.” (Matthew 28:18-20).
So, churches were specialists in one thing. That one thing was proclaiming the Gospel so that the lost could hear, believe and follow Christ. We were passionate about this one sacred task and began to send preachers to the nations. We insisted that everything our churches would do must related clearly back to that mission. After all, our local bodies belong to Christ and exist for Him.
This morning I was appalled to read this story in Baptist Press and it’s suggestions for my church. Will your church neglect it’s mission to do the following:
– Set up a station in your church where members can apply for converter box coupons.
– Put on a mini-seminar to educate your members on how to make the transfer from analog to digital.
– Sunday School classes could get together as a group and help purchase converter boxes for those they know need the help.
Since when did our mission extend to helping people convert their televisions from analog to digital receivers? Can someone explain to me how this fits into the commission that Christ gave his churches?
Dave Miller (75)
Debbie Kaufman (63)
Rick Patrick (42)
Chris Roberts (37)
Bob Hadley (33)
Frank (33)
Greg Harvey (31)
Bart Barber (30)
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dr. james willingham (30)
We [Southern Baptists] are so silly sometimes. What are we thinking? This is embarrassing.
I guess getting TV programming into all our church members’ homes is important since so much of the programming is produced to reflect a Christian worldview and be Christ-exalting.
What kind of language can I use about Baptist Press and still be allowed to blog here?
I’m sure that somehow this fits into the culture war.
Oh….just a slow news day. Nothing going on except Advent and Christmas. Churches aren’t really doing much.
GOOD GRIEF!!!!
Go therefore, and see to it that no one misses Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy!, in the name of the…
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Tony,
I think you missed the close relationship between “converter box” and “conversion.” Furthermore, there is “transfer” and and “transformation.” They are so closely related that I wonder if a redemptive analogy is even needed. ” . . . apply for coupons . . .” – that’s called “be ye doers of the word”.
Plus, watching televangelists are important because that’s where many get their theological education (TBN). Gotta have my TBN!
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Tony, a very, very, veeerrrrryyyy slow press day! We’ve come a long way.
One of the humorous stories my parents often told was about one of their pastors in the ’50′s. The brother preached a fireball of a sermon against television, the “hell box”. Some weeks later an antenna was seen protruding the skyline beside the parsonage. Seems the deacons found the best way to shut him up was to buy him one!
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Wow. It really is sad that we see people going without TV as some type of emergency that we need to provide “ministry” for. Will there be sermon series outlines to go along with this? Maybe this will be seen as the “greatest evangelistic opportunity for the church since Y2K, er, the Passion of the Christ, er, The DaVinci Code, er, . . .”
Please make it stop. Please.
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I have 2 words for you, that might shed some light on why this is an issue for the SBC…. “FamilyNet”
ok… it looks like one word, but it really is 2 words ….
Put this next to the class on mirco brewing that some churches think ought to be promoted.
By the way Tony, I see your church has a link to Habitat for Humanity . . . what the difference?
@Jeff Straub: The brewing class is new to me, but I am guessing BP won’t be suggesting that anytime soon.
Good question about our church. I would say a website link is much different than actual participation. Several of our men participate in Habitat as individuals, not as a church “ministry.” Plus Habitat actually addresses a real human need, namely homelessness.
I’m sure if a person examined everything we do carefully, we’d fall short on many things. But that is where pastoral leadership comes into play.
I can understand that there are some elderly people in the church that won’t be able to do this for themselves. I used to work as a tech support rep for Directv and I can tell you first hand that old people and technology don’t mix. Bless their hearts. However, the idea of mobilizing as a church to do this is plum silly. If you have elderly relatives, go help them hook their stuff up.
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Is your quibble with converter boxes specifically, or anything that does not directly relate to “preaching the Gospel” as we understand that phrase to mean? Because “preaching the Gospel” isn’t the first part of the Great Commission, you know; first we’re instructed to “go into all the world.” That’s not what many “domestic” (American rather than international) Southern Baptists (or most other abominations…er, denominations) are doing, though, is it? We build our buildings and then expect the world to “go into” us! If helping people with their converter boxes serves to extend the influence of the church into the lives of those people SO THAT the Gospel can be preached more effectively, how is that a bad thing?
Baptist churches are always doing silly things. In their desire to be helpful, however, they tend to overstep the bounds. True, converters for analog to digital is not a part of the commission, but being polite and helpful is. The positive spin on I Cors. 13′s “Love does not behave itself unseemly” is this: “Love is courteous.” So what’s wrong with being courteous and helpful. I say that though I have been praying for a great awakening for 35 years. Fellows don’t get bent out of shape over the non-essentials. Just focus attention on the things that are important. Remember, at one time Baptists of the South defending slavery. Richard Furman, I think it was, declared, circa 1823-24, Baptists will fight in defense of slavery. He died shortly thereafter. In 1861 a cannon ball from Ft. Sumpter came crashing through the FBC of Charleston and buried itself in Furman’s grave. It was as if God put a punctuation mark to Furman’s remarks. How infinitely sad! While it is right to suggest that the church should stay focused on its mission, there is no use wasting time to correct every perceived gaff. Like Paul we need to say and do, “This one thing I do.” Call attention to the greatness of the Gospel, the whiteness and extent of the fields, and forget the things that are behind. We are, I pray, daily drawing near to another visitation from on high. C.S. Lewis stated, “They pull down deep heaven on their heads.” When Heaven comes down, all the rest of the problems began to work themselves out. So lets seek God for the Heavens to drop down (Isa.45:8).
Tony:
At the risk of side tracking this conversation . . . H for H is no more biblical than the proposed program you address. Unless of course you can point me to a text that commands, suggests or even hints at house building as an extension of the Great Commission in some way.
Furthermore, promoting H for H on the church website seems to be at least a tactic endorsement if not a very public endorsement of what can only be described as an ecumenical effort without biblical sanction.
Does H for H do good. Well, if this is the measure of ministry, then converter supplying is also “good” in some extended way. Helping seniors . . . or the poor . . . etc. The question remains, are either of these biblical? Are they even remotely Christian? Yes, in that professing Christians do both. But more importantly, no, in that neither is the work of the Church.
The fact that men in the church participate is not an excuse either. If church members supported Amway, would this in and of itself be a just cause for the church to endorse it publically? I think not.
FWIW, I participated briefly one time in an H for H project in a town I pastored in about 10 years ago. I was invited to say a prayer of dedication for the house, because one of the new owners had attended our church (briefly). The other had her Catholic priest there. The family was presented with two Bibles — one a KJV and the other a Catholic family Bible. I decided then and there that H for H was no place for a biblical Christian to invest time or money.
Are we lacking in truly Christian outlets for our surplus funds or our personal talents? Are there no truly biblical causes to which we can give and for which we can encourage our flock to expend their efforts?
H for H is a feel good program that amounts to a continuation of the Social Gospel, though I doubt not that there are many sincere believers who think (mistakenly, IMO) that their participation advances the cause of Christ.
Getting back to my initial question . . . How?
Regards,
Jeff Straub
FWIW, I hold a Phd in Baptist Studies from Southern and lived in Madison for some time and was connected with another Baptist church in town for many years.
tony,
all i can say is, “wow.” mark devine (beeson divinity school) has a book called “bonhoeffer speaks today.” in that book is a chapter on relevance. mark unpacks how churches & denominations tend to start slipping quickly down the slope of meaninglessness once relevancy becomes a chief goal. we must keep our faith that the gospel is relevant without gimmicks or bait’n'switch christianity. i’m not saying the church doesn’t have social responsibilities; i’m just saying “wow.”
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Though I agree that this should not be the main focus of a church I actually think that doing something like this, especially the third thing you mention could be a good opportunity for ministry in a small rural church like the one I have recently started serving. Most of the members, and much of the community are elderly, and many live on Social Security and receive there television signal through an antenna. As one commenter mentioned, TV is not a necessity, but many use the service not only as entertainment but also for news and weather.
You are right in acknowledging that these things would not help with the spiritual needs of people, but it could be used as a way in the door. Many will not know that they need a converter or not know how to install it, and I can see now I older lady talking about, “those nice young men from the church,” that came over and helped her keep her TV going.
I would have to agree with Jay. No, helping people with their converter boxes is not fulfilling the Great Commission but could it help build bridges to those who are unchurched? This really is not different than super bowl parties, block parties, Friend Day, etc. Ofcourse H and H, converter boxes, medical clinics are not directly fulfilling the mission but as we are living incarnationally, we must seek for ways to engage the culture. Is it wrong to help people with their converter boxes? Is it creating barriers to the Gospel? Does it dishonor God? If no, and this is meant to be a bridge builder then why are we all wasting our time to “poke fun” at attempst to be creative to engage the culture. Let’s all fall over ourselves striving to make Him known to all people, even to those who are not sure how to screw on a coax cable.
As a Southern Baptist in Alabama, I find this rather embarassing. Were this being used as an outreach ministry, I might be able to find some worth in it. However, despite comments above referring to the outreach possibilities, what I read in the BP article suggested it was a ministry for those already in the church (tables set up in church, etc.). Why not have people help the elderly in their church? Great idea…but do we really need to make a big push about it in our churches when we could be making a big push for sound growth in biblical doctrine?
There’s no difference as far as I’m concerned in asking for a wheelchair ramp to be built or help in getting t.v. reception. If your handicapped a t.v. or even a computer could be a big help. Meals on wheels don’t come with a scripture. Somebody doesn’t have enough to do.
Silly, silly Baptists! Baptists are always doing silly things — at least all the Baptists beside myself.
“…teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you.” “Love one another…” “Serve one another…” Are we really going to narrow the Great Commission to the point where all we do is speak the plan of salvation 24/7 or does it not also include the way we help people in their daily lives? These comments seem a bit harsh. Then again, I pastor a church of mostly senior adults. I frequently help them with confusing technology. If a church wants to help people with such issues as an organized ministry, why do we assume God cannot use such assistance to engage the lost?
A cup of cold water is a means of ministry according to our Lord. A little common sense says we can use almost anything as a means to get the word to others. Kindness and consideration are definitely a part of being Christian and living the Christian life. Winsomeness can serve Gospel purposes as well as confrontation. Some require confrontation and fear; others are won by compassion. This whole area deserves a better, closer examination and representation than a mere either/or take-it-or-leave-it attitude. Belligerent presentations virtually assure rejection without due consideration.
There are people who write comments and sign with false names and their ideas are “out in space” as far as common sense is concerned. I ask you to be aware that these people exist to start trouble and it does no good to be nice to them. The last few comments I read are an example, in my opinion, of what it will take to bring good men together under whatever flag. That cup of water comment is on target. When it’s your movie don’t let someone else write the script. Some college boy is going to think I have forgot about the Bible which is of course the script.
Amen!
About 8:00 p.m. est on CNN the announcer interviewed a drag queen. Yes, high heels, big boobs, heada blond hair and the face and tone of a wrestler. Lot of young people are watching t.v. tonight and it’s embarrassing to me and I’m no prude. CNN should pay but with all the money and “leaders” out here there is no central place to “sock it toem” Maybe this Manhatten Declaration can eventually throw enough weight to make a difference – one problem at a time. A real “Leader” not money changer will help.
What we need is the Third Great Awakening which involves the right theology (Sovereign Grace which was the theology of the First and Second Great Awakenings and of the origins of the Great Century of Missions), the Divine Presence, and the spirit of humility. Such a sense of the Divine Presence in the public arena would go a long way to stopping things like jack just mentioned. Isaiah wrote, Drop down, ye heavens, from above.”(Isa.45:8), while our Lord taught us to pray, “Thy kigdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Surely, such heavenly presence, such goodness, such holiness, prayed down, would turn men’s hearts from beholding such things to a sense of shame that any would so act. C.S.Lewis spoke of pulling down deep heaven upon our heads, and that really aptly describes what is evident in the records of the first and second Great Awakenings. I have been praying for a Third Great Awakening for nearly 37 years. We need people to become committed to paying for such a visitation. We also need to know the theology that is involved in these events along with the humility. I press every reader of this blog to begin to pray for God to so bless us and to continue to so pray until He does. In 1727 the Moravians were praying for a visitation, when the power of God fell. People ten miles away working in farm fields fell to their knees in prayer as they felt the power fall on that area. The Bible says, when the enemy shall come in like a flood, God will raise up a standard against him, a counter flood, a greater flood. Satn wounds the Savior’s heel, but the Savior crushes his head. Where sin does abound, Grace Superabounds. Read Jonathan Edwards’ Humble Attempt and plead the promises he listed there for such a visitation. By His grace and for His glory.
We are all not made the same. People with courage and couldn’t keep it inside any longer spoke up in church about being molested by clergy. And then others gained their courage to stand up and did. Some criminals went to jail, some got rescued to the vatican and many, many have gone to court costing the Church countless millions. We’ve got problems in the SBC that will break the floor joices of the foundation. Maybe that’s God’s way but until he tells me personally I’m going to encourage every God fearing man who wants to straighten this out to Speak out and stand up. Our Southern Baptists would be 1000% better off, better able to pay the bills, better able to accomplish our & God’s mission and better take care of people in our area if we got rid of 15% who belive they know the “true” religion and the Churchs are populated just to keep their ministries amd familys fat. I have no idea what this Manhatten Declaration is or could be , but I like the idea of being able to sit down to dinner with anybody who believes in the Trinity and not worrying about somebody who believes he knows it all and bashing us or worrying we will get our heads cut off. We can be much better than we are, accomplish much more and do it all without being autonomous in every regard. We have the ability to fight. And we do fight well !
The ferment of the leaven is always a problem, but -hey -we are called to endure whatever we must and expect and believe in the triumph of Christ. That is one reason why I think we ought to pray for the conversion of the whole world and every one in it without exception for a 1,001 generations. That ought to give us a few more to fulfilling literally that prophecy to Abraham about his seed being as numerous as the sand by the seashore and the stars of heaven as well as the number of the redeemed in Heaven being a number no man can number. The most liberal are the most orthodox who are also the most balanced, the most flexible, the most creative, the most magnetic. I found in my researches in baptist history that the period in which we were the most orthodox (1700-1820), the periods of the First and Second Great Awakenings and the launching of the Great Century of Missions, is also the period of our true liberalism and attractiveness. The intellectual depth of the Bible reflects the omniscient Being who inspired it. We need once more to challenge the minds and hearts of people every where with the sagacious wisdom and subtlety and depth of the word of God written. Here is a queston for all who think they know the Bible and how it should be interpreted: How could Sandy Creek Church and Assn. and Shubal Stearns and Daniel Marshall have eldresses in a time when they would not have dreamed of questioning or disobeying the Books? Does the fact that they had such have some relationship to the Pilgrim Pastor John Robinson’s question, “Who knows what new light is getting ready to break forth from the word of God?” An while we are at it why would Jonathan Edwards curtail the attacks of folks like George Whitefield on the unconverted ministry? While he opposed Aminianism, yet did Edwards’ taking of Whitefield to task for his attack on the unconverted ministers have something today with Whitefield seeking reconciliation with Wesley? And how could John Gano have communion with George Whitefield? And how could a free African American fly backwards and faint when Whitefield simply pointed at him and quote his text, “Israel prepare to meet thy God?” Note the Black man had come out to disrupt a Gospel meeting and when he recoverd from his fainting he was led to the Lord by Rev.Oliver Hart, pastor of the FBC of Charleston who had been appointed to assist the man by Whitefield. As to things like pedophilia when the presence of God comes such people find such life style utterly hideous and detestable. As to ministers who grow wealthy, I know nothing of it personally – only the poverty of those who try to do the will of God faithfully. Now and then some prosper, but usually such who do are those anointed by certain groups to insinuate their ideas into the fellowship of the saints in order to accomplish nefarious schemes. Behold the theology opposed by the folks who run things in Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley and the theology they promote. Is that the reason for the decline of the founding theology of Southern Baptists, the theology of the great awakenings and the origins of missions declined and a more skeptical, looser, indulgent kind became dominant? Can it also be the explanation behind why the attempt is made to make Bible believers look ridiculous and absurd? Can some who take extreme positions be the servants of those who desire to run what they detest into the ground? It will not matter in the long run, for sooner or later, the Heaven of heavens will drop down and the whole earth will be filled with His knowledge and glory as the waters that cover the sea, all the nations of the earth will remember and return unto the Lord and the nations shall beat their swords into plowshares and learn war no more, then where shall they be who maintain themselves by a blood economy? An awakening has two sides as in Zeph 2:10, terrible and awful or terrific. Those who have mocked
the idea of God as a meglomaniac will be in utter consternation as they behold the Being so utterly bright, so lovely, so irresisitibly beautiful and wonderful as to turn people, to completely hypnotize and turn them into stone, so to speak, captivated and mesmerized and spell bound by what they behold in wondrous overwhelming attractiveness. Even an atheist is easily captivated by such a being, when that is the Being’s desire. I speak from personal experience. As one said, “O, it was so wonderful that I could not resist it!” I beheld as an atheist, Jesus standing before me knocking as if at a door. Then He did more, as in Lydia’s case, He opened my heart that I called on Him freely and found relief and joy and peace. If He did it with me, He can do it with anyone – even with everyone. And the Bible seems to indicate that He will do so someday soon and win the whole earth to Christ with the Gospel and with poor weak saints suffering and striving to win them and succeeding. Think of TULIP and Predestination and Reprobation as invitations in the form of paradoxical interventions which restore ability and power to people to become and act godly in Christ Jesus and to live humbly and gladly and joyfully and peacefully. Like the body shop mechanic in the hills of Kentucky asked me more than 40 years ago, “Have your ever thought about the fact that every last soul on the face of the earth at any one time could be the elect of God?” I said, “No, I never thought of it.” Seven years later in a study of Jonah I began to realize the possibility. That was in conjunction with the thought that predestinaion was an invitation to begin one’s spiritual pilgrimage (Thanks to Dr. Eusden’s intro. to William Ames, Marrow of Divinity (the first theology text book ever used at Harvard back in the 1600s)). I shortened the idea to an invitation to be saved and then applied it to all of the tulip outline, when I found Jesus using those very teachings as evangelistic invitations. Is the Third Great Awakening about to descend upon us like a tsunami of the greatest goodness and love and holiness and salvation and….???
Jimmy Doolittle and his men , all volunteers, practiced getting heavely loaded B-25s off a boat deck. There mission was to show Japan we could reach them, bomb them and then fly somewhere else to land. They hoped the war would end. THeir ship ran into a fishing trawler and they were afraid there position had been reported, so they sunk the trawler and manned their B-25s for take-off so much farther away from the target that they knew they could bomb but not get to an alternate field to land. They bailed out at night in thunderstorms. Some died some including Doolittle lived. Most flyers are accustomed to praying that the weather will improve. Doolittle didn’t need this mission for his scrap book. It was Duty, Honor Country fortified with a strong belief in God. The two gun tank commander in Germany really needed a weather change and instructed his personal clergyman to pray his best for that change – and he got it. If God had sent a sign that he was taking over the war these men would have sat it out along withall they commanded. Tom Mix ( that’l mix up the younger boys) had a song that said; “Wait for the wagon, Wait for the wagon , Wait for the wagon and we’ll all take a ride.” I’m willing to wait but not if there is no good reason not to get it fixed now. Because we’re being taken for a ride as it is. It can fix itself but that is not a pretty picture. If you find work Brother, write. Amen
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