Comments on: Shrinking CP Giving & The Future Of The SBC http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/ Connecting Southern Baptist: 516 Blogs + 246 Twitter Accounts Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:02:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Top 10 SBC Stories Of 2008 | Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-1052 Top 10 SBC Stories Of 2008 | Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:06:27 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-1052 [...] slides it should catch our attention. This story broke in early October but was largely ignored.  The quote, “Cooperative Program receipts for the year were down .65 percent and combined giving for the [...] [...] slides it should catch our attention. This story broke in early October but was largely ignored.  The quote, “Cooperative Program receipts for the year were down .65 percent and combined giving for the [...]

]]> By: The Money Quote: What To Expect From The Cooperative Program | Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-866 The Money Quote: What To Expect From The Cooperative Program | Southern Baptist Blogs - SBC Voices Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:05:43 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-866 [...] have been guessing, including me, that the Cooperative Program is in trouble over the next few years. There is no prophecy in that statement, just sniffing the wind and [...] [...] have been guessing, including me, that the Cooperative Program is in trouble over the next few years. There is no prophecy in that statement, just sniffing the wind and [...]

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-466 Dr. James Willingham Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:43:36 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-466 Dear Greg: I pet 4:17 in the original actually states that "The Judgment must begin at the house of God." There is a definite article before judgment which raises the very interesting thought that the day of judgment has already begun in the church. No wonder we suffer. When you pray for a Great Awakening - and I have been praying for one for 35 years (not that I think much of my prayers - ugh!). One fellow I know has been praying for one over 50 years. All we do is suffer, suffer, suffer, and suffer some more. God's victories are dearly bought, but our anguish is as nothing in comparison to our Lord's miseries on Calvary. I cannot believe that the Father can behold that as He does and see the blood of His One-of-a-Kind, only begotten Son, and not determine that His work and message take the whole earth in one generation and even for a thousand generations. One fellow (I consider him the wisest man I ever met) asked me over 40 yrs ago, "Have you ever thought that at any one time every last soul on earth could be the elect of God?" I answered in the negative. 6-7 yrs later his question blew my eschatology to pieces, when I was looking at Jonah 3. The prophet's message literally was not fulfilled. The real issue was he purpose for which it was given, namely, to bring the Ninevites to repentance. The King asked, "Who can tell?" and the 4th chapter gives God's arguments on the issue with reference to Jonah. So the prophecies of gloom and doom elsewhere could have such a purpose as to cause repentance and so God can spare. I strongly urge a consideration of Jonathan Edwards, "Humble Attempt." The prophecies he discusses in that work lie at the core of the First and Second Great Awakenings and the Great Century of Missions. They will serve well for our situation to day. I try to plead some of them every day in prayer for the awakening to come. Whether I will live to see it, let alone to a have a little part in that blessed event, I don't know. But I am thankful for the privilege to so pray, regardless of the suffering it involves. Dear Greg: I pet 4:17 in the original actually states that “The Judgment must begin at the house of God.” There is a definite article before judgment which raises the very interesting thought that the day of judgment has already begun in the church. No wonder we suffer. When you pray for a Great Awakening – and I have been praying for one for 35 years (not that I think much of my prayers – ugh!). One fellow I know has been praying for one over 50 years. All we do is suffer, suffer, suffer, and suffer some more. God’s victories are dearly bought, but our anguish is as nothing in comparison to our Lord’s miseries on Calvary. I cannot believe that the Father can behold that as He does and see the blood of His One-of-a-Kind, only begotten Son, and not determine that His work and message take the whole earth in one generation and even for a thousand generations. One fellow (I consider him the wisest man I ever met) asked me over 40 yrs ago, “Have you ever thought that at any one time every last soul on earth could be the elect of God?” I answered in the negative. 6-7 yrs later his question blew my eschatology to pieces, when I was looking at Jonah 3. The prophet’s message literally was not fulfilled. The real issue was he purpose for which it was given, namely, to bring the Ninevites to repentance. The King asked, “Who can tell?” and the 4th chapter gives God’s arguments on the issue with reference to Jonah. So the prophecies of gloom and doom elsewhere could have such a purpose as to cause repentance and so God can spare. I strongly urge a consideration of Jonathan Edwards, “Humble Attempt.” The prophecies he discusses in that work lie at the core of the First and Second Great Awakenings and the Great Century of Missions. They will serve well for our situation to day. I try to plead some of them every day in prayer for the awakening to come. Whether I will live to see it, let alone to a have a little part in that blessed event, I don’t know. But I am thankful for the privilege to so pray, regardless of the suffering it involves.

]]> By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-461 Greg Alford Mon, 06 Oct 2008 21:24:29 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-461 Dr Willingham, Who can dare speak a word against such elegance and passion as found in your above post? Certainly not I… May our great God of compassion grant your prayer for the SBC! However, I must say that yours is a dangerous prayer… Why? Because, as I am sure you are aware, Great Awakenings are always preceded by a time of great examination and judgment of God’s people. <i>“Judgment must begin at the house of God” (1Peter 4:17)</i> Even so… I pray God hear your petition! You mentioned <i>“divide and conquer, the tactic is as old as warfare.” Yes, and I think you have hit the nail on the head concerning the true struggle we face in the SBC today. Within the current leadership of the SBC today we have what I would call “Dividers” and “Uniters”… We have those who are battling to “Exclude” other Baptist from the SBC because they do not look/think/believe exactly like them, and on the other hand we have those who are battling to be “Included” in the SBC. Those who seek to unite the SBC are evident for all to see… they do such things as host “Building Bridges” and “Together 4 the Gospel” conferences. Those who seek to divide the SBC are equally evident for all to see… they do such things as oppose “Building Bridges” and “Together 4 the Gospel” conferences and then host their own conferences to correct the negative influence they perceive these conferences designed to bring unity to the SBC are having upon the next generation of pastors. It should be becoming clear to all in the SBC by now that the work of missions and giving to the CP will always suffer when the “Dividers” in the SBC are allowed to win the day. Grace Always, <abbr><em><abbr><em>Greg Alfords last blog post..<a href="http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2008/09/lords-of-sbc.html" rel="nofollow">Lords of the SBC</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Dr Willingham,

Who can dare speak a word against such elegance and passion as found in your above post? Certainly not I… May our great God of compassion grant your prayer for the SBC!

However, I must say that yours is a dangerous prayer… Why? Because, as I am sure you are aware, Great Awakenings are always preceded by a time of great examination and judgment of God’s people. “Judgment must begin at the house of God” (1Peter 4:17) Even so… I pray God hear your petition!

You mentioned “divide and conquer, the tactic is as old as warfare.” Yes, and I think you have hit the nail on the head concerning the true struggle we face in the SBC today. Within the current leadership of the SBC today we have what I would call “Dividers” and “Uniters”… We have those who are battling to “Exclude” other Baptist from the SBC because they do not look/think/believe exactly like them, and on the other hand we have those who are battling to be “Included” in the SBC.

Those who seek to unite the SBC are evident for all to see… they do such things as host “Building Bridges” and “Together 4 the Gospel” conferences. Those who seek to divide the SBC are equally evident for all to see… they do such things as oppose “Building Bridges” and “Together 4 the Gospel” conferences and then host their own conferences to correct the negative influence they perceive these conferences designed to bring unity to the SBC are having upon the next generation of pastors.

It should be becoming clear to all in the SBC by now that the work of missions and giving to the CP will always suffer when the “Dividers” in the SBC are allowed to win the day.

Grace Always,

Greg Alfords last blog post..Lords of the SBC

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-459 Dr. James Willingham Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:10:37 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-459 The consequences referred to in the above blog as to cutting out the CP is just what certain forces outside the SBC would like to see happen. When SBC goes down, then there will be no large protestant body in the US any more. Fragmentation and atomization, divide and conquer, the tactic is as old as warfare. Infiltration, polarization, etc., the tactic has been tried on Southern Baptists many times before. The Primitive -Missionary split, the Landmark split, the modernist-fundamentalist split, the conservtive-moderate split, all of these were aimed at blunting the Great Awakenings and the Great Missionary impulse. The conspiracy seems to succeed as C.S. Lewis suggested in his That Hideous Strength, and it is at that point that they pull down deep heaven on their own heads. An Awakening involves two things, the right theology and a heavenly presence descending upon a people and covering them like the waters cover the sea. When Heaven came down in Moravia in 1727 men working in a field 10 miles from the church where people were praying fell under conviction. In America in the Awakenings Heaven seem to come down many times. My prayer is, "Drop down, ye heavens, drop down." and "Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is being done in Heaven." The reason why the Sovereign Grace Theology is the one is that it offers joyful, liberal, generous, wonderful works of God among a people besotted and utterly helpless. And it utterly transforms them. It is the secret of moral, social, cultural, spiritual, national, and etc. renewal. The hour c0ming on the whole earth (Rev.3:10) seems to be about here, the hour fraught with terror and hope of victory beyond our fondest dreams. Let us pray, pleading the promises of a tsunami of knowledge and glory, the standard and counter wave to the evil now coming in upon us almost wholesale. Our hope is as bright as the promises of God. Expect great things from God. Attempt great things for God. The consequences referred to in the above blog as to cutting out the CP is just what certain forces outside the SBC would like to see happen. When SBC goes down, then there will be no large protestant body in the US any more. Fragmentation and atomization, divide and conquer, the tactic is as old as warfare. Infiltration, polarization, etc., the tactic has been tried on Southern Baptists many times before. The Primitive -Missionary split, the Landmark split, the modernist-fundamentalist split, the conservtive-moderate split, all of these were aimed at blunting the Great Awakenings and the Great Missionary impulse. The conspiracy seems to succeed as C.S. Lewis suggested in his That Hideous Strength, and it is at that point that they pull down deep heaven on their own heads. An Awakening involves two things, the right theology and a heavenly presence descending upon a people and covering them like the waters cover the sea.
When Heaven came down in Moravia in 1727 men working in a field 10 miles from the church where people were praying fell under conviction. In America in the Awakenings Heaven seem to come down many times. My prayer is, “Drop down, ye heavens, drop down.” and “Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is being done in Heaven.” The reason why the Sovereign Grace Theology is the one is that it offers joyful, liberal, generous, wonderful works of God among a people besotted and utterly helpless. And it utterly transforms them. It is the secret of moral, social, cultural, spiritual, national, and etc. renewal. The hour c0ming on the whole earth (Rev.3:10) seems to be about here, the hour fraught with terror and hope of victory beyond our fondest dreams. Let us pray, pleading the promises of a tsunami of knowledge and glory, the standard and counter wave to the evil now coming in upon us almost wholesale. Our hope is as bright as the promises of God. Expect great things from God. Attempt great things for God.

]]> By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-458 Greg Alford Sun, 05 Oct 2008 03:10:59 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-458 Tony, I am sure that the biggest reason for the shortfall in CP giving is due to the weak economy and the difficult financial position that many Churches are now facing. However, I must point out that there will be a financial impact to the CP from all those young pastors we keep hearing about that are leaving the SBC. I also must point out that the conduct of some Sate Conventions and the IMB have had a negative impact on CP giving. Due to the “Aggressive” and “Antagonistic” Anti-Calvinistic activities of the Florida Baptist Convention and the Landmark policies of the IMB my congregation made the decision that we could no longer support the CP. Decisions have Consequences… Grace Always, Tony,

I am sure that the biggest reason for the shortfall in CP giving is due to the weak economy and the difficult financial position that many Churches are now facing.

However, I must point out that there will be a financial impact to the CP from all those young pastors we keep hearing about that are leaving the SBC. I also must point out that the conduct of some Sate Conventions and the IMB have had a negative impact on CP giving. Due to the “Aggressive” and “Antagonistic” Anti-Calvinistic activities of the Florida Baptist Convention and the Landmark policies of the IMB my congregation made the decision that we could no longer support the CP.

Decisions have Consequences…

Grace Always,

]]> By: Tony Kummer http://sbcvoices.com/follow-the-money/#comment-457 Tony Kummer Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:58:43 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=290#comment-457 @Bob Allen: Thanks for your response, a comment from your perspective is very appreciated. One assumption of my post, which I did not make plain, is this: Local church budgets will come under pressure going forward, so their giving will likely shrink. Since my church gives a percent of total budget, if my total church budget drops, then CP giving will fall. This is the structure of many (if not most) churches. It's build into our budget process. So, when small churches fail, as Frank Page suggests half of them will, that money is gone. Even in churches that are able to replace older members, who are passing away, with younger families. It will be hard to maintain budget levels. It would be easy for pastors to reallocate the CP money if these younger members do not have loyalty to the CP. More so, if these younger families value kids programs and personal involvement in missions over the national offerings. So, the genius of the CP is the connection with the average SBC church. But if the churches fail, so will the CP. @Bob Allen: Thanks for your response, a comment from your perspective is very appreciated. One assumption of my post, which I did not make plain, is this:

Local church budgets will come under pressure going forward, so their giving will likely shrink. Since my church gives a percent of total budget, if my total church budget drops, then CP giving will fall. This is the structure of many (if not most) churches. It’s build into our budget process.

So, when small churches fail, as Frank Page suggests half of them will, that money is gone. Even in churches that are able to replace older members, who are passing away, with younger families. It will be hard to maintain budget levels.

It would be easy for pastors to reallocate the CP money if these younger members do not have loyalty to the CP. More so, if these younger families value kids programs and personal involvement in missions over the national offerings.

So, the genius of the CP is the connection with the average SBC church. But if the churches fail, so will the CP.

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