Here are some debate topics that I am looking for some people to partake in.
1) The place of Calvinism in the SBC
2) Tongues: A Private Prayer Language?
And I believe Dave Miller and I are going to debate Dispensationalism or more generally, Eschatological Hermeneutics… But I might have to wait until he gets done celebrating the Yankees World Series win. Disgusting.
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Hey everyone, if you want to hear me preach, go to my blog… fromthehillsandhollers.blogspot.com and you can hear me preaching last Sunday. I just figured out how to put videos on my blog. I know, I’m computer challenged. But anyway, I just figured that some of you might like to hear this, that you might be interested in putting a face to volfan007, and hear him preach in a Church setting. I’m preaching thru the book of 1 Corinthians at my Church right now, and this sermon is part of my preaching thru chapter 1.
Anyway, I just thought I’d let yall know.
http://fromthehillsandhollers.blogspot.com/
David Worley
I also have a guy that would like to debate Open Air Preaching vs. Seeker Methods of Evangelism… He is pro-Open Air Preaching… Any takers?
Wouldn’t this be more of a subjective discussion?
I’m pro-Seeker Methods of Evangelism but that’s more out of a choice of preference, not a choice of theology.
For me, it’s a changing of the methods, not the message.
can yall do a debate on the place of Arminianism in the SBC.
Aaron,
The only way that debate would be interesting is if some Founders type of Calvinist was willing to argue that Arminianism has no place in the SBC.
Arminianism is accepted and is the majority. Calvinism is a clear minority and there is a lot of aggression against Calvinism, which is why that is a better debate topic. It has more relevance.
matt, matt, matt. does everything really have to be a DEBATE? is there no room for a “discussion” at sbc voices? really? DeBaTe? and does it really have to be open air preaching VERSUS seeker evangelism? gooooossssh, everything is so mutually exclusive in the sbc. with all the “debates” and “vs.” being flung around, i’m not exactly sure what you’re lookin’ for. a fight? c’mon man, quit it.
i particularly like this line you dropped about arminianism above: “The only way that debate would be interesting is if some Founders type of Calvinist was willing to argue that Arminianism has no place in the SBC.” really? not interested if there are no fangs, claws, and 7-pointers fighting pelagians?
versus? debates? maybe i’m misreading your goal here. what exactly are you after?
.-= mike´s last blog ..best resources on 2 corinthians? =-.
mike,
So if I call it a discussion its okay? I dont have to call it a debate… We can have discussions on the same issues, but we are really just fighting over words.
Im merely after having civil discussion on topics that are important in the SBC. Nothing has to be a DEBATE, but healthy debate can be very beneficial.
For instance, because of our first debate- Church Oversight and Baptism- I understand the BI position a lot better than I did before.
And Mike,
When having a discussion on a certain topic it is important to actually have people that disagree.
I’m not looking for a fight at all. Healthy discussion does it for me. I really think you are just being nit-picky when it comes to my choose of words. I’ll start using or instead of vs. and discussion instead of debate… Does that change everything?
hahaha it changes nothing if you basically mean the same thing.
but seriously, am i merely being nitpicky? or are there substantial differences between debating and discussing? people “debate” in order to win, right? people “discuss” in order to hear. that’s what i’m getting after.
and do you really not think pitting one view “versus” another view carries a certain connotation of conflict?
i like how you conceded, yet sarcastically. everyone at this site has a never-say-die attitude about every opinion and every theological viewpoint. gooosshh lolz
nitpicky? hey that’s your call
.-= mike´s last blog ..cool article on ancient roman artwork =-.
Wonder how many more SBC pastors are going to post their sermons for others to watch and hear and then post at various Blog sites to advertise their sermon being available to view.
I don’t know, Tom. While I’m pondering that question, here’s a sermon I preached about 2 years ago.
http://heargodspeak.blogspot.com/search/label/II%20Timothy%202
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Can Someone Be Too "Edu-ma-cated"?? =-.
I used to have a partial tolerance for your comments, but your tie is way too liberal for a Christian pastor to be wearing. It might work for Rush Limbaugh, but not for a pastor wanting to be taken seriously. Just judging by that tie, I’d think you’re a social drinker.
.-= Darby Livingston´s last blog ..Is Divorce a Bigger Sin Than Adultery? =-.
Darby,
That’s just wrong. How can any good, conservative Christian be against Winne the Pooh?
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Can Someone Be Too "Edu-ma-cated"?? =-.
Simple,
Today Winnie the Pooh. Tomorrow South Park. That whole slippery slope thing.
.-= Darby Livingston´s last blog ..Is Divorce a Bigger Sin Than Adultery? =-.
Tom,
Did you listen to it?
David
Matt, Try taking a walk on the wild side and debate whether the SBC should be a major influence in politics or just religion or both. If politics is in the answer how much money would be reasonable to spend including Political Action Committees.
That would be a good “discussion.”
I agree.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
Its gonna be a while before I’m done celebrating
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
I figured.
Then, when the Hawkeyes win the National Championship, it will start over again.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
The Hawkeyes win a national championship? The Hawkeyes? They aint never gonna happen. The SEC is still around!
David
I’m looking forward to the “Eschatological Hermeneutics” one.
.-= Benji Ramsaur´s last blog ..Principles of Faith of The Sandy Creek Association-1816 =-.
mike,
I really think you are misreading me. I have used the word debate, but every time I describe what I mean it seems to be the same thing you are saying. Am I wrong on this?
Every time I have talked about why we do this my answer has always been to have helpful discussion on a certain topic. Can this not be done in a debate format?
I am 99% sure everyone at this site understand that no one is AGAINST each other. We merely have opposing views on different topics. These are not salvific topics and so we all fellowship together. But what is wrong with having healthy “debate?” I mean, when we did the multi-site debate was it really that terrible that it was “pro-multi site VS!. against multi-site?” Was that really so terrible to have a vs.? I really do think you are blowing things out of proportion a little bit.
I have always got along with you well in the blogosphere… I really just think you are misreading me and not giving my intentions the benefit of the doubt… And you dont have to. Thats your call.
matt,
fair enough, i do seem to be misreading you
.-= mike´s last blog ..cool article on ancient roman artwork =-.
Concerning the place of calvinism in the SBC, it is evident from our past that Sovereign Grace was the theology of the First and Second Great Awakenings and of the origins of the Great Century of Missions. Before those awakenings Baptists were a very small group. With the First Awakening they begin the surge that would carry them to the pinnacle of success. The Baptist view of religious liberty would be written into the constitution of the new nation. The Baptists would increase in quantity and quality, unite Separate and Regular Baptists, begin one of the early antislavery movements, utilize educated and uneducated ministers together in service, begin the great missionary movement, persuade General Baptists to become Particular Baptists, work with political leaders like Washington, Jefferson, and Madion, receive the addition of 255 congregational churches that became Baptists in persuasion, call other Protestants their pedobaptist brethren, establish educational institutions, and more. Could it be that the doctrines of grace are coming back, because people are beginning to pray for another visitation, another great awakening? After all, there can be no doubt as to the theology of the two Awakenings. The greatest theologian of the First Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, and the greatest Evangelist of the same, George Whitefield, were solidly Sovereign Grace or calvinist in their theology. That theology produced what some might consider anomalies, the freest nation in the world, one with a built in mechanism for peaceful change. Could it be the theology of true liberalism? Edward’s Humble Attempt inspired William Carey and others to begin to pray for the propagation of the Gospel among the nations and then to do something about it. My researches in the period from 1740-1820 suggest that the theology in conjunction with the Divine Presence and a sense of humility were the key factors in the two awakenings and the beginning of missions. It seems logical to think that the same factors are required for another awakening, even The Third Awakening, the one which might win the whole earth in one generation for a start and then for a thousand more after that. Think of a 1001 generations. Now that would provide a literal fulfillment of th promises to Abraham of a seed as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand by the seashore as well as the satement in Revelation of the Redeemed there being a number which no man can number. This theology can make a believer balanced, flexible, creatie, magnetic, charming, attractive, compelling in the most winsome sense of the word. Could it be we are just now beginning to develop therapeutic understandings through concepts that will help us to grasp what God is doing? I refer to paradoxical interventions, for example. The intellectual nature of the bible reflects the depths of wisdom, of profundity in the clarity of simplicity, a wisdom indicative of the Omniscient Being who inspired it.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
For his evening devotion on Dec.24, C.H. Spurgeon wrote: “We anticipate the happy day when the whole world shall be converted to Christ;…all nations shall call their Redeemer blessed. Some despair of this. They look upon the world as a vessel breaking up and going to pieces, never to float again….we cannot read our Bibles without the conviction that – ‘Jesus shall reign where’er the sun/Does his successive journeys run.’ We are not discouraged by the length of His delays; we are not dishertend by the long period which He allots to the church in which to struggle with little sccess and much defeat. We believe that God will never suffer this world, which has once seen Christ’s blood shed upon it, to be always the devil’s stronghold. Christ came hither to deliver this world from the detested sway of of the powers of darkness….” Here we have some indication of the real place of so-called calvinism in the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, the real place of Sovereign Grace (the true terminology of the Gospel salvation). I fling dwn this challenge, this gauntlet to all Baptists: The Gospel of Sovereign Grace produced the First and Second Great Awakenings, the Great Century of Missions, the New American Nation, Religious liberty, the foundations of the worlds greatest education institutions, the uniting of Separate and Regular Baptists, the persuasion of General Baptists to become Particular Baptists, the employment of educated and uneducated ministers, the first opening of the door to women in ministry (the eldresses of Sandy Creek) with full faith and confidence that it was biblical, one of the first anti-slavery efforts (The Friends of Humanity), the calling of other Protestants their pedobaptist brethren, evangelism in quality and quantity, the wherewithal to work with political leaders like Jefferson, Madison, Washington, and others, the winning of 255 Congregational churches over to the Baptist persuasion, and more. Such being the case it follows that the present day resurgence of Sovereign Grace is likely to lead to a Third Great Awakening, the one that finally wins the whole earth to Christ fo a generation and then for a thousand more generations, that we ought to commit ourselves and all our resources to prayer for such a thing to occur, that we must give ourselves to the study of our history, the sources, and the theology and the methodology of our past success with a view to a renascence of the same today that will carry us into a future like that conceived by Mr. Spurgeon in his devotion, that we want every Baptist to come to the persuasion by the evidence of scripture and history that Sovereign Grace is the truth in salvation, the most winsome truth, the most inviting truth, the only truth that truly address reality in and of a fallen world. I propose no coercion, no “do it my way or else” practices. Rather, that we commend ourselves and our views by the effort of persuasion based on evidence, on facts, on attitudes commensurate with the best ethics of agape love lived out to the fullest degree possible. Such I believe was Basil Manley, Sr.’s, J.P. Boyce, B.H. Carroll, Shubal Stearns, Daniel Marshall, John Gano, George Whtefield, Jonathan Edwards, an a host of others, who, in the brighter angels of their God-given salvation, were striving to find a better way to make converts and develop Christian character in their converts, who were intending to have Heaven itself come down as the ultimate persuader of souls. C.S. Lewis spoke of pulling down Deep Heaven. That well defines the Presence that attended those awakening events circa 1740 and 1801 and that in the atmosphere of Sovereign Grace preaching and teaching. I propose no diect attack on those who diffe, rather, a faithful effort at pesuasion by example, by blessing, by labors commended of God Himself.
Matt, I believe a very healthy debate and even agreement is long over due as to Calvinism within the SBC. If we could remove the stigmatism and straw men attached to that label we would find the doctine to be biblical and not nearly as controversial as some would have us believe.
What we are simply talking about is whether or not SBC members can acknowledge the sovereignty of God in salvation, as they do in every other realm of the kingdom. The subject on the table should be, is there enough room at the table for Baptists today to acknowledge the doctrines of grace as they did for several centuries prior to this one (e.g. Spurgeon, etc.)?
BD
Before the foundation of the world, God knew whether or not we would wind up debating this topic…but we still have the free will to discuss it or not. God grants us the ability to engage in this debate (or discussion, if you prefer) as well as the ability to resist it entirely and navigate to another blog or website of our choosing. Just know that even as you make that free choice, God knew you were going to do it.
Rick, that was funny. But count me out of that debate. My guess is there would be enough heat generated to keep Sioux City warm all winter.
Men, the grace and glory of God are no laughing matter. Yes, God knows everything – that much is obvious. The point is do we know who He is- completely? Do we and should we praise and worship Him for being sovereign in all- salvation included? Or would salvation somehow be an exception to His sovereignty for some strange reason? Just some food for thought..
As to calvinism (I prefer the term Sovereign Grace), let me say that Predestination, Total Depravity/Inability, Unconitional Election, Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints, and Reprobation, that is, the doctrines of grace are all incredibly winsome invitations to lost sinners to be saved. If you all will look in Dr. JohnEusden’s Introduction to his translation of William Ames, Marrow of Divinity/Theology, you will find his comment that:”Pedestination is an invitation to begin one’s spiritual pilgrimage….” I thin it is about age 25. In any case, it has been 37-38 years since I first saw it, and it transformed my thinking about all of the doctrines of grace and how they really are invitations to be saved.Just look at Mt.15:21-28 & Lk.4:18-31 and note how Jesus offers paradoxical teachings which, if the hearers treated as reasons to trust him, turned out to be great blessings in disguise. If the reader will google – dr. james willingham, theology, and paradoxical interventions – and then click on – commentsbythirdgreatawakeningcom.blogspot…-Back Type – they should find about 4 pages that I have written on the matter. I think this is the theology that lies at the heart of the First and Second Great Awakenings and the launching of the Great Century of Missions, for somehow or other these paradoxical truths are interventions which enabe and empower the individual to becomeresponsible and take control of his or her life under the direct Soveriegnty of God. Such explains, I believe, why the Pilgrims, Puritans, andearly Baptists along with the Reformed, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Congregationalists, were some of the most responsible and enduring and persevering people the world has ever seen. You ought to read what the Intellectual Historians like Samuel Eliot Morrison, Perry Miller, Harvey Wish, and others have had to say about our ancestors and predecessors in Ameican History, and they also looked at their failings, too. I think these truths are coming back in order for usto have a Third Great Awakening, a great improvement in our learning to take responsibility for our actions, and the development of great theology once more which will command the respect of all levels of society and empower civilization for a great advance, perhaps for the conversion of every soul on earth in one generation and even for a 1001 generations.
Dr. Willingham is thorough and precise in his post. Sovereign Grace is merely biblical salvation in its entirety. Spurgeon, a pretty fair Baptist preacher, referred to Calvinism (there it is) as being Christianity.
It’s historical and biblical Christianity and has been upheld from the beginning of the BF&M to today’s edition (pg. 77), edited and updated by Convention leader Al Mohler, long a proponent of sovereign grace.
I’m want to believe that Armenian or ‘free-will’ objectors are more prone to be concerned with man’s glory in salvation than God’s. Otherwise, how can any serious student of scripture ignore or misinterpret the clear teaching of at least two-dozen passages of scripture which clearly teach the sovereignty of God in the salvation of sinners who as unregenerate, are “dead in tresspaes and sin,” who are “children of wrath” and whose “father is the devil?”
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