Comments on: Great Commission Resurgence Task Force http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/ Southern Baptist News & Opinion Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:32:19 +0000 hourly 1 By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4068 Greg Alford Wed, 01 Jul 2009 01:20:38 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4068 Kyle, You are not butting in, and your comments are always welcome… I have no problem with anyone who holds a different opinion than I do on this issue. After all it is a third or forth tier issue and no one will be in Hell because he chose a glass of Welch’s or a glass of wine with his/her evening meals. If we did not have those in the SBC who continue to make this issue a first tier issue, and one used to exclude other Baptist from fellowship, participation, and cooperation in the SBC I would not even be discussing it. I respect your position and would never break fellowship with you over it. Grace Always, .-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..<a href="http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2009/06/rise-of-passionate-missionary-calvinism.html" rel="nofollow">The Rise of Passionate Missionary Calvinism in the SBC</a> =-. Kyle,

You are not butting in, and your comments are always welcome… I have no problem with anyone who holds a different opinion than I do on this issue. After all it is a third or forth tier issue and no one will be in Hell because he chose a glass of Welch’s or a glass of wine with his/her evening meals.

If we did not have those in the SBC who continue to make this issue a first tier issue, and one used to exclude other Baptist from fellowship, participation, and cooperation in the SBC I would not even be discussing it.

I respect your position and would never break fellowship with you over it.

Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..The Rise of Passionate Missionary Calvinism in the SBC =-.

]]> By: Kyle Waddell http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4058 Kyle Waddell Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:32:03 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4058 Hey Greg, I almost don’t want to don’t want to step into this argument between the two of you but I could not resist at this point after your last post. I have studied some on the word “Wine” throughout the Bible as well I am a lover of Jewish traditions because much of what and how we practice our methods evolved from the Jewish faith and their traditions. A much more influential pastor and bible scholar than I once stated that after his extensive studies the anything that had to do with a grape is noted as wine in scripture. Now I know there are specific references to the word grape and to the word wine but he is saying that early writers used the word wine more often than not when referring to anything that had to do with the grape. Case in point the Lords supper, we all know that the Jews according to tradition use un-leavened bread during the Passover feast. (Matthew 26:17) According to Jewish tradition before the feast begins the head of the house searches out his house looking for yeast because it is a type or symbol of sin. When he finds yeast he troughs it out of the house for the period of the feast. Now we all know that yeast is the active ingredient that makes bread rise and that unleavened bread has no yeast. My question to you is this why would they not use yeast because it was a symbol of sin in their bread but drink fermented wine? The active ingredient for the fermentation to take place in wine is the same they consider a symbol of sin during this feast time? It is therefore my understanding this is but one of many references to the word wine when it was juice, unfermented juice of the grape. Secondly I am sure you would agree that I am not the preacher or teacher that Jesus was even though you have never heard me preach. I am no where close in practice but I feel that Jesus had to at least meet the pastoral guidelines that Paul gives to all Pastors in 1st Timothy 3. The Greek word for wine here is “paroinos” meaning drunken. In light of this scripture, what I stated in the above paragraph and what proverbs says about rulers drinking fermented wine I do not believe Jesus ever drank fermented wine. I hope this helps you but if not OOOO well I tried. If anyone else does not agree with this post OOO well sorry. Many of our questions will not be answered till we stand before the Lord. I, on this issue would rather not get myself in trouble for believing it was OK nor would I want to persuade others to believe that drinking wine is OK. On the other hand I love grape juice. Hey Greg,
I almost don’t want to don’t want to step into this argument between the two of you but I could not resist at this point after your last post. I have studied some on the word “Wine” throughout the Bible as well I am a lover of Jewish traditions because much of what and how we practice our methods evolved from the Jewish faith and their traditions. A much more influential pastor and bible scholar than I once stated that after his extensive studies the anything that had to do with a grape is noted as wine in scripture. Now I know there are specific references to the word grape and to the word wine but he is saying that early writers used the word wine more often than not when referring to anything that had to do with the grape. Case in point the Lords supper, we all know that the Jews according to tradition use un-leavened bread during the Passover feast. (Matthew 26:17) According to Jewish tradition before the feast begins the head of the house searches out his house looking for yeast because it is a type or symbol of sin. When he finds yeast he troughs it out of the house for the period of the feast. Now we all know that yeast is the active ingredient that makes bread rise and that unleavened bread has no yeast. My question to you is this why would they not use yeast because it was a symbol of sin in their bread but drink fermented wine? The active ingredient for the fermentation to take place in wine is the same they consider a symbol of sin during this feast time? It is therefore my understanding this is but one of many references to the word wine when it was juice, unfermented juice of the grape.
Secondly I am sure you would agree that I am not the preacher or teacher that Jesus was even though you have never heard me preach. I am no where close in practice but I feel that Jesus had to at least meet the pastoral guidelines that Paul gives to all Pastors in 1st Timothy 3. The Greek word for wine here is “paroinos” meaning drunken. In light of this scripture, what I stated in the above paragraph and what proverbs says about rulers drinking fermented wine I do not believe Jesus ever drank fermented wine.
I hope this helps you but if not OOOO well I tried. If anyone else does not agree with this post OOO well sorry. Many of our questions will not be answered till we stand before the Lord. I, on this issue would rather not get myself in trouble for believing it was OK nor would I want to persuade others to believe that drinking wine is OK. On the other hand I love grape juice.

]]> By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4051 Greg Alford Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:42:13 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4051 David, <i>“Trying to discuss anything with you is like a dog chasing it’s tail.”</i> I could not agree more… Your comments on Calvin and Zwingli remain for all to read… and yes it was bashing, and that is something you need to get a hold on. My views on alcohol has actually changed over the years as I developed a much stronger respect for the Word of God than the wisdom of man… and no the Bible does not condemn the drinking of fermented wine (goodness David, there is no such thing as unfermented wine.) I suppose that you and Peter would have us all believe the “ALL” the Bible translators to date have gotten it wrong and you and Peter are the only ones who have gotten it correct? The KJV, NAS, ASV, ESV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, NRS, RSV, GNT, The Message, And the Holman Christian Standard (The Baptist Version)… and all the hundreds of language scholars who worked on them for years have translated the word for wine wrong all this time. Wow David! That’s a pretty arrogant position for you and Peter to take, but if that’s what you think Peter’s research proves then I guess you guys should release you own version of the Bible I just can’t wait for the King David/Peter Version of the Bible to be released and see how it reads when you replace the word “wine” with “grape juice” throughout both the Old and New Testaments. Here's a little preview: <i>And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my “grape juice”, which cheereth God and man,</i> (Jud.9:13) --- Who knew God loved Welch’s so much? Grace Always, .-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..<a href="http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2009/06/hunt-names-18-member-gcr-task-force.html" rel="nofollow">Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force</a> =-. David,

“Trying to discuss anything with you is like a dog chasing it’s tail.”

I could not agree more…

Your comments on Calvin and Zwingli remain for all to read… and yes it was bashing, and that is something you need to get a hold on.

My views on alcohol has actually changed over the years as I developed a much stronger respect for the Word of God than the wisdom of man… and no the Bible does not condemn the drinking of fermented wine (goodness David, there is no such thing as unfermented wine.)

I suppose that you and Peter would have us all believe the “ALL” the Bible translators to date have gotten it wrong and you and Peter are the only ones who have gotten it correct? The KJV, NAS, ASV, ESV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, NRS, RSV, GNT, The Message,
And the Holman Christian Standard (The Baptist Version)… and all the hundreds of language scholars who worked on them for years have translated the word for wine wrong all this time. Wow David! That’s a pretty arrogant position for you and Peter to take, but if that’s what you think Peter’s research proves then I guess you guys should release you own version of the Bible

I just can’t wait for the King David/Peter Version of the Bible to be released and see how it reads when you replace the word “wine” with “grape juice” throughout both the Old and New Testaments.

Here’s a little preview:

And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my “grape juice”, which cheereth God and man, (Jud.9:13) — Who knew God loved Welch’s so much?

Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force =-.

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4043 volfan007 Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:56:48 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4043 Greg, Trying to discuss anything with you is like a dog chasing it's tail. The only reason I brought Calvin and Zwingli and Luther into the discussion was because of other "old timers" were being discussed...you know, thier views on drinking alcohol and such. I wasnt bashing Calvin, nor Zwingli, nor Luther. Goodness gracious, man, get a hold on yourself. Also, figures that you have such a closed mind about alcohol. You are convinced already. What a shame, because I'd bet that Peter's book would change your mind. It's very good, and it shows that the Bible condemns drinking fermented wine. And, also, Greg, everything we do as a SBC is important...all that we do and stand on is important. It defines who we are and how we practice our faith and what kind of a witness to the world we will be. David Greg,

Trying to discuss anything with you is like a dog chasing it’s tail. The only reason I brought Calvin and Zwingli and Luther into the discussion was because of other “old timers” were being discussed…you know, thier views on drinking alcohol and such. I wasnt bashing Calvin, nor Zwingli, nor Luther. Goodness gracious, man, get a hold on yourself.

Also, figures that you have such a closed mind about alcohol. You are convinced already. What a shame, because I’d bet that Peter’s book would change your mind. It’s very good, and it shows that the Bible condemns drinking fermented wine.

And, also, Greg, everything we do as a SBC is important…all that we do and stand on is important. It defines who we are and how we practice our faith and what kind of a witness to the world we will be.

David

]]> By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4041 Greg Alford Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:36:07 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4041 David, I have not read Peter Lumpkin’s book on alcohol and I have no intention to do so… Thanks, but no thanks on “anything” written by Lumpkin… If there has ever been a man who approached the research of a subject with “extreme bias”, a preconceived outcome, and a personal agenda it is Peter Lumpkin’s. I have had read much of Peter’s opinion on the blogs over the last few years and quite honestly I find much of his reasoning Biblically, historically, and logically “unsound”. David, I do not think saying “I heard it taught” is going to be acceptable in God’s court. We do not accept such hearsay in the court of man, so why do we think God will accept or excuses it of us? Besides David, no one that I know of is a follower of Calvin or Zwingli, who are both sinner, but the Calvinist I know of are passionate followers of Jesus Christ. So why not just drop the whole let’s bash Calvin and Zwingli for accusation (true or false) that have been made against them hundreds of years ago, and let’s stick to discussing the issues that we face in the “SBC Today”; like how do we build greater cooperation in the SBC, how do we get the next generation of leadership onboard, and how do we ensure that more of our CP dollars actually go to missions work? These are the things we should be discussion David, not the accused sins of Calvin and Zwingli, or even the issue of “Alcohol Today”. Grace Always, .-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..<a href="http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2009/06/hunt-names-18-member-gcr-task-force.html" rel="nofollow">Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force</a> =-. David,

I have not read Peter Lumpkin’s book on alcohol and I have no intention to do so… Thanks, but no thanks on “anything” written by Lumpkin… If there has ever been a man who approached the research of a subject with “extreme bias”, a preconceived outcome, and a personal agenda it is Peter Lumpkin’s. I have had read much of Peter’s opinion on the blogs over the last few years and quite honestly I find much of his reasoning Biblically, historically, and logically “unsound”.

David, I do not think saying “I heard it taught” is going to be acceptable in God’s court. We do not accept such hearsay in the court of man, so why do we think God will accept or excuses it of us? Besides David, no one that I know of is a follower of Calvin or Zwingli, who are both sinner, but the Calvinist I know of are passionate followers of Jesus Christ. So why not just drop the whole let’s bash Calvin and Zwingli for accusation (true or false) that have been made against them hundreds of years ago, and let’s stick to discussing the issues that we face in the “SBC Today”; like how do we build greater cooperation in the SBC, how do we get the next generation of leadership onboard, and how do we ensure that more of our CP dollars actually go to missions work?

These are the things we should be discussion David, not the accused sins of Calvin and Zwingli, or even the issue of “Alcohol Today”.

Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force =-.

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4030 volfan007 Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:43:40 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4030 Greg, First of all, you really need to read Peter Lumpkin's book "Alcohol Today." I mean, it's worth the price of the book just to get the quotes from the ancients and the Bible Scholars about yayin and shekar and oinos being a generic term meaning anything from grapes fresh off the vine to grape juice to fermented wine...and the context dictates which way to use it. It's excellently written, exegetically sound, and very informative. Of course, those who already have thier minds made up and do not want to consider other views will not want to read it. Also, Greg, I graduated from Mid America Baptist Seminary in Memphis, TN. Dr. Tom Nettles and Dr. Reginald Barnard were two of the Profs that I had for Church History and the History of Christianity. I graduated in 1988, so I am having a hard time remembering who brought out those little tidbits about the Reformers lifestyles and beliefs. But, I can assure you that I did not pull them out of thin air. I heard it taught. David Greg,

First of all, you really need to read Peter Lumpkin’s book “Alcohol Today.” I mean, it’s worth the price of the book just to get the quotes from the ancients and the Bible Scholars about yayin and shekar and oinos being a generic term meaning anything from grapes fresh off the vine to grape juice to fermented wine…and the context dictates which way to use it. It’s excellently written, exegetically sound, and very informative. Of course, those who already have thier minds made up and do not want to consider other views will not want to read it.

Also, Greg, I graduated from Mid America Baptist Seminary in Memphis, TN. Dr. Tom Nettles and Dr. Reginald Barnard were two of the Profs that I had for Church History and the History of Christianity. I graduated in 1988, so I am having a hard time remembering who brought out those little tidbits about the Reformers lifestyles and beliefs. But, I can assure you that I did not pull them out of thin air. I heard it taught.

David

]]> By: Amy Waddell http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4028 Amy Waddell Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:23:47 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4028 Why is that? .-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..<a href="http://amyhwaddell.blogspot.com/2009/06/frances-morrow-by-eleece-parker.html" rel="nofollow">Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker</a> =-. Why is that?
.-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker =-.

]]> By: Amy Waddell http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4027 Amy Waddell Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:22:56 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4027 Great Post Mark... .-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..<a href="http://amyhwaddell.blogspot.com/2009/06/frances-morrow-by-eleece-parker.html" rel="nofollow">Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker</a> =-. Great Post Mark…
.-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker =-.

]]> By: Amy Waddell http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4026 Amy Waddell Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:08:18 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4026 I'll volunteer gladly.... I'm a Pastors Wife (oops, from the Southeast, Low Country of SC to be exact) ...an unknown...but I'm ready and willing. Hey guys, lets be supportive...so many postives with this Convention and the Resurgence. ...Still Proud to be a Southern Baptist... Lets lift them in Prayer and get on board! .-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..<a href="http://amyhwaddell.blogspot.com/2009/06/frances-morrow-by-eleece-parker.html" rel="nofollow">Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker</a> =-. I’ll volunteer gladly…. I’m a Pastors Wife (oops, from the Southeast, Low Country of SC to be exact) …an unknown…but I’m ready and willing.
Hey guys, lets be supportive…so many postives with this Convention and the Resurgence.
…Still Proud to be a Southern Baptist…
Lets lift them in Prayer and get on board!
.-= Amy Waddell´s last blog ..Frances Morrow by Eleece Parker =-.

]]> By: Greg Alford http://sbcvoices.com/great-commission-resurgence-task-force/#comment-4021 Greg Alford Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:16:58 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1649#comment-4021 David, Ok, I guess that settles it then... if you learned it in “Seminary” who am I to question what your professors said about Calvin and Zwingli… I mean we all know that Seminary Professors and History Books are inerrant, right? The bottom like is you have not provide any of your sources now have you? You have not provided one single credible witness now have you? What Seminary? When? What Professor? What Church History Book? And what sources did those History Books quote for the information you cited about Calvin and Zwingli. And are you 100% sure that the “original” sources for this information is not Anti-Reformation Catholic Apologetics? David, I really do not wish to argue with you on this… I just want you to consider that the Bible warns us not to receive any accusation against any elder (living or dead) except if there are two actual witnesses to the act. I do not know if these men have done these things or not, and with all the slanderous accusations made against the Reformers by the Catholic Apologist throughout church history I don’t think anyone can say they know what the truth concerning these accusations are. I will agree with you, and I think it safe to say, <i>“that Luther liked to drink strong, green, German beer.” </i> But then Jesus drank…. “Welch’s” right? Grace Always, .-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..<a href="http://gritsgrace.blogspot.com/2009/06/hunt-names-18-member-gcr-task-force.html" rel="nofollow">Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force</a> =-. David,

Ok, I guess that settles it then… if you learned it in “Seminary” who am I to question what your professors said about Calvin and Zwingli… I mean we all know that Seminary Professors and History Books are inerrant, right?

The bottom like is you have not provide any of your sources now have you? You have not provided one single credible witness now have you? What Seminary? When? What Professor? What Church History Book? And what sources did those History Books quote for the information you cited about Calvin and Zwingli.

And are you 100% sure that the “original” sources for this information is not Anti-Reformation Catholic Apologetics?

David, I really do not wish to argue with you on this… I just want you to consider that the Bible warns us not to receive any accusation against any elder (living or dead) except if there are two actual witnesses to the act. I do not know if these men have done these things or not, and with all the slanderous accusations made against the Reformers by the Catholic Apologist throughout church history I don’t think anyone can say they know what the truth concerning these accusations are.

I will agree with you, and I think it safe to say, “that Luther liked to drink strong, green, German beer.” But then Jesus drank…. “Welch’s” right?

Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Hunt names 18-member GCR Task Force =-.

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