After a thorough and exhaustive review of Dr. Ergun Caner’s public statements, a committee consisting of four members of Liberty University’s Board of Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory. However, the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager, but, instead, found discrepancies related to matters such as dates, names and places of residence. Dr. Caner has cooperated with the board committee and has apologized for the discrepancies and misstatements that led to this review. Dr. Caner’s current contractual term as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary expires on June, 30, 2010. Dr. Caner will no longer serve as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. The university has offered, and Dr. Caner has accepted, an employment contract for the 2010-2011 academic year. Dr. Caner will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a professor.
Well, what has been known all along is made official and action is being taken. While some(and others) refused to see the obvious after LBTS’ official investigation they concluded that Ergun Caner did in fact lie about some things in his testimony. As I said all along, he was in fact a Muslim who converted to Christianity. It was nonsense to ever claim he wasn’t a Muslim, the courts decided that he was to be raised Muslim, therefore, he was. What was obvious was all of his contradictory statements, which Liberty clearly saw.
I am happy that we can now put all of this to rest. It was investigated, the truth was found, and action was taken by LBTS. We need to pray for Ergun, his family, and Liberty University. There should not be rejoicing at the discovery, but we should be thankful that the truth was found, cared about, and action taken. That is exactly how Christians should respond. I am thankful for Liberty University and how they handled the situation.
David
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BTW, everyone needs to go read SBC Todays blog post… Its “telling.”
They call a man who was found guilty of lying and losing his job, “exonerated.” Absolutely no credibility. I cant even imagine what Lumpkins is going to say. If Caner was truly “exonerated” he wouldnt be losing his job.
Of course, SBC Today, will say he was exonerated in the sense that Liberty did say he was a Muslim that converted to Christianity, which I have said all along. And, of course, SBC Today, after they, Lumpkins, Guthrie, and others made fools of themselves “declaring his innocence” are no longer ‘discussing the issue.’
Liberty says that Caner apologized, good. Now I wonder if the SBC Today guys and Lumpkins, will apologize to all the people they treated poorly for merely pointing out the discrepancies that Liberty found to be true? They acted as if everyone pointing these lies out were horrible Christians… Yeah, when peoples own agendas get in the way, things can get bad.
Tom Guthrie has now written a post calling him “exonerated.” These guys have no low. While a Muslim questioned whether or not he was ever a Muslim, 90% of the Christians pointing out the lies never made it about whether or not he was ever a Muslim.
SBC Today and Tim Guthrie- stop being cowards. Myself and many others never made the issue about whether or not he was ever a Muslim. Deal with the issue. Caner did in fact lie about specifics in his testimony, which is exactly what Liberty found. Stop denying what the issue really is and hiding behind this mask of “Exonerated: he was a Muslim!” It is pathetic.
Matt,
Wow, how mean spirited can you be? Man, the anger and hate and almost giddy joy over this is…well, sad and telling.
If you’ll remember Matt, some were saying that Ergun Caner was not a Muslim. There were quite a few who saying that he was not even a Muslim.
Also, what I remeber is all the BI guys saying that we need to wait for the report to come out…from Liberty U. I remember all the BI guys saying lets not rush to judgement. That’s exactly what Peter was saying…Tim Guthrie was saying…and everyone else.
It’s sad when people get “happy” over something bad happening to someone else.
David
David,
I have no joy over the situation… Did you read my post? There is also no anger or hate so there is nothing, “telling,” at all.
I dont know anyone happy about the Caner situation, at all. You shouldnt assume my motives or heart because so far you are completely off base.
Why cant the SBC Today folks(including you) and Lumpkins just admit that you all were wrong and you treated those calling Ergun into question poorly. Is there too much pride or is it something else? I can go through a ton of comment threads and find yours, Lumpkins, and many others comments telling me and others how shameful it was to question Caner for the claims found to be true. Do you want to apologize now?
Again, I am saddened by what all has gone on with Ergun, but as all christians should be, I am glad the truth came out and the situation was handled. The report says that Ergun apologized and for that I am thankful. I am glad that he is staying on as a professor and that him and his family arent having to relocate or anything like that. Liberty took appropriate action, Ergun apologized, and now we can move forward. This whole thing looked bad on all of Evangelicalism, but especially the SBC. I am glad it is over and that it was handled rightly.
Matt, when you said this over at Wade’s place, “I love Scott Gordon, I wish he would distance himself from them. He might agree theologically, BI, but his name does not belong with the rest. He is respectable, honest, and doesn’t always push an agenda. I appreciate him greatly and wanted to say that… While at the same time, agreeing with you that SBC Today has no credibility, at all;” were you saying this in a friendly way? I mean, when you apparently called all of us so called BI guys unrespectable, dishonest, and have no credibily; were you saying this in a nice, friendly, loving way?
David
David,
It was in a friendly way… I dont believe SBC Today has any credibility left, at all. That doesnt mean I’m not “nice” just because I dont think SBC Today has any credibility.
David,
Also, could you please tell me which cowardly writer at SBC Today wrote the post? You see how I show that it was me who wrote the post above? It’s called, not being a coward. Whoever wrote the post should have some courage and sign their name.
Tim Guthrie at least had the courage to nsign his name… Sadly, the same cant be said for the guys at SBC Today.
Matt,
Can you tell me if you edited your post, or your comment #1? They both look different now.
David
Matt,
I did not write the post. Also, is there anything new in the statement released by Liberty? I mean, really, Dr. Caner already apologized for mis speaking and for getting names and dates wrong a while back. He was not fired. His contract is running out. But, THEY ARE KEEPING HIM ON AS A PROF. That should speak to us…shouldnt it?
So, was there anything new that we did not know before today? Apart from Dr. Caner’s contract not being renewed as Pres. of Liberty? Yet, he’s staying on as a Prof.?
And, again, why should I apologize for defending a friend and brother in Christ…by asking people to back off…to please stop hounding Dr. Caner and relentlessly attacking him…to quit being judge and jury…to wait for the facts and the investigation? What’s there to apologize for?
David
David,
I have not edited the post at all, but I did make additions to my first comment so i didnt have to write another new comment.
Also, he wasn’t “fired” from the University, true, but he is no longer going to be the Dean because of his actions.
SBC Today must print a retraction for using the word “exonerated” in their post. They just must, it’s so embarrassing for them. How is being found guilty of exactly what you were accused of, but being allowed to keep part of your job, the same thing as being “exonerated.” Mistakes happen, but that’s just poor reporting of the facts and it should be retracted.
Nate,
Can you please point out where Dr. Caner was accused of anything different than what he already apologized for a while back? Did Liberty U. make any statement of condemnation? Was he fired?
David
David,
It’s a HUGE deal to be fired as the President of a seminary. Dean’s are rotated out, Presidents are not. I’m not sure why they aren’t mentioning he was both the President and Dean. This is certainly a punishment.
http://www.liberty.edu/academics/religion/seminary/index.cfm?PID=6969
I do think there’s something to the statement “factual statements that are self-contradictory” that Caner has not admitted too, but as I state below that doesn’t make much sense. The more I think about it the more confusing that actually is.
“factual statements that are self-contradictory”
That statement is almost as pathetic as some of Caner’s “mis-statements.” That is doublespeak that Lewis Carrol would be proud of. I can picture the Cheshire Cat or Tweedledee saying some sort of nonsense. The phrase is a contradiction, and this is coming from the official press release of an institution of higher learning. Why didn’t they just say that saying you’re born one place to one group and saying you’re born in another place to another group with the obvious intention of embellishing your testimony is a load of crap? It’s not only amazing that some see a demotion as exoneration, it’s amazing the verbal gymnastics some will go to in order to circle the wagons and please everyone in the process.
David
Just to make sure i understand you, because understanding doesn’t come easy on a Saturday morning, are you saying when he apologized for getting dates wrong he was including having said to have grown up outside of the US and came over when he was a teen but court docs show that he was in the US before he was 5? I’m just curious because would have expected him to be more specific about that particular issue if he was apologizing for it.
Anyway, I think it’s pretty telling that even being removed as Seminary president isn’t good enough for some people. The investigation was done. It’s over. It’s sad to watch people acting like rubberneckers on an interstate going eastbound looking at a wreck in the west bound lane.
If i recall, the issue was never if he was ever a Muslim, but rather if he was telling the truth about the details of being a Arabic speaking Turkish Muslim who converted as a teen.
You are right.
No, there were many people, who were questioning everything about Dr. Caner.
David
David, we’re not talking about all those many people out there. Matt has challenged you concerning himself and his numerous comments concerning this issue. You’ve yet to give him anything but down and away. How about a fastball over the plate?
Darby,
What do you want me to say? All I’ve said is hold on…let’s not jump on Dr. Caner’s back…lets not all gang up on a brother..especially at the word of a lost, Muslim man with an agenda. All I’ve ever said is lets get the facts and all the story before we condemn a brother in Christ.
What have I said that I need to apologize for? Please tell me?
That was a fastball…low and on the outside corner for a strike.
David
The problem David is that I have no little reply link so your pitch was just a bit outside.
You should say Matt is right. He’s not always right and so when he is, you should at least say so.
I think that they harped on the fact that some questioned his knowledge of all things Islam and were able to run with that line of questioning.
In the end, because someone, somewhere questioned something that was really not up for debate, the other side can latch onto that and claim “exoneration” because, in fact, Ergun Caner was exonerated for that claim. It’s just that Caner was found guilty of other things.
It’s a matter of which viewpoint you want to choose:
Did Darth Vader kill Anakin Skywalker? Kenobi thought so.
Matt, I agree with you 100%. And frankly, I am saddened that even his support at LU has eroded. His failure reflects on all evangelical Christians.
But I do have a question re: Liberty’s conclusion. What are “factual statements that are self-contradictory”? If it is a euphanism for “he lied,” which I suppose it must be, it is a very awkward one. Do they have a thesaurus in Lynchburg?
John Fariss
First of all, I was surprised that someone above said Matt S. sounded giddy and happy over this. I did not pick up on that at all. In fact, doesn’t the original post say that this is nothing to celebrate?
And second, people are half-correct in saying this was never about his being a real Muslim. It SHOULD NOT have been about that, but certain folks seem to have repeatedly forced that issue onto various discussions (from my perspective).
I hate that this whole thing cost him his post, but I’m not sure what else could have been done. Very difficult situation. I’m glad I’m not one of the folks at Liberty who had to make a decision about this.
Mike,
Dr. Caner is still a prof. The report reported things that Dr. Caner already apologized for a while back.
David
You mean the apology he put on his site and then took down?
Matt,
How long does it have to stay up? 6 months? 2 years? 10 years? 25 years?
I’m glad that the Lord doesnt think like you. We’d all be in a mess.
David
David,
As I wrote today at my blog:
David, Caner has not even admitted that he has repeatedly lied, let alone apologized for lying. His statement from last February was an effort to sweep everything under the rug, and Liberty’s actions are just more of the same.
Squirrel
Just to state prejudices: I’m not a big fan of the Caner bro’s, but even as someone who fits into the young, restless, and reformed category, over the past several years I have developed more respect for them than I have for men like James White. So I’m not trying to pick a dog in this fight…
…it does speak in his favor of the situation that they are keeping him as a professor. Some might try and make a big deal about them not renewing his dean’s contract, but w/o more details it could be just as easily that Caner asked for it to not be renewed to avoid more headaches or whatever as it could be that they flat out told him we’re not renewing it.
It’s just that saying the investigation confirms he misspoke but then being vague about the details… it neither exonerates nor assigns a greater guilt. It just leaves it foggy…and foggy is never good for truth…
One more thing… I did recently watch one of the MoKhan vids about Caner’s “arabic gibberish,” and the first thought that came to my mind was: “Where do I find someone w/o an agenda who knows arabic to tell me whether or not MoKhan is making stuff up.” B/c White has an agenda (if he claims one or not) his dislike for and headbutt sessions w/ the C bro’s are, dare I say, epic (at least in the blog world)… and I don’t think the other people like DK and WB who are promoting MoKhan’s arguments are versed at all in Arabic.
Either way… whatever the truth, the way this whole thing’s been handled on blogs has been nothing short of shameful, for the most part, imo.
Thanks Mike…
I couldnt believe that David accused me of being happy and giddy… There is nothing in my post that even remotely implies that.
Matt,
I think you are forgetting that this started about hum being a Fake Ex Muslim. MoKhan still claims such. Then it went to his degree. it is legit. Then it went to his being a Devout Muslim. He was. There is nothing new in the statement that Ergun had not already said he was sorry for mixing the dates etc..
So why the name calling and posting of a non SBC guy as being an SBC guy? It appears you have an agenda. Ergun did NOT make anything up. Read the statement. Nothing there says such.
The official statement says: “Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory. However, the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager, but, instead, found discrepancies related to matters such as dates, names and places of residence.”
Here’s the thing about it, in my mind: IF Caner made a few statements here and there while talking, and got the facts minorly confused, then he’s simply human like the rest of us. Say “I’m sorry” (sounds as if he did) and move on.
BUT IF this was something that happened consistently and involved a wild shift in the self-contradictory facts depending on where he was at/who he was speaking to, then that would indicate his mis-speak was most likely intentional. In which case he didn’t mis-speak, he lied.
Truth is, I don’t know which one it is b/c I don’t have all the facts of the matter. Will Liberty release a more detailed explanation of their findings and help clear the air?
Nope. For many of us it was about when he came to the states, where he trained for Jihad and evidence of his many “debates” and so on.
Actually, Tim, it started with Dr. Caner’s claim: “A public speaker and apologist, Caner has debated Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and other religious leaders in thirteen countries and thirty-five states.” Debates which, it was soon evident, did not take place. Anywhere. Ever.
Squirrel
Tim,
It can be debated “how this started,” but any reasonable person had no doubt Caner was a Muslim. The legitimate questions were always surrounding the statements he made and the “discrepancies” and “self-contradictory” statements which brought into question the truthfulness of what he said about the circumstances surrounding his “muslimhood,” among other things. Last time I checked, “exonerated” people are not punished.
I don’t think Caner has ever admitted making self-contradictory statements, but I could be wrong. I just realized what John is talking about above. Last time I checked, FACTUAL statements CANNOT be self-contradictory. Right? Doesn’t one of the statements have to be NONFACTUAL? What’s going on here?
Nate,
Facts can self contradictory when you say that you preached in Minnesota in Feb. of 2001, but then, a few year laters after making that statement, you say that you preached in Minnesota in March of 2001. The facts are contradictory.
David
David,
??. No, in that example saying that you preached in March of 2001 is not a fact, it’s untrue. Of course, the “misstatements” in this case are much more serious than this example. Please explain if I’m missing something. In your scenario Feb of 2001 is a fact, March of 2001 is nonfactual.
I say that I preached in FEBRUARY of 2001, then, at another time, I say that I preached in MARCH of 2001…for the same conference, or whatever. The two statements would be contradictory…the facts would not line up.
David
February 2001 = fact
March 2001 = non-factual (different from a lie, but also not a fact)
And again, the seriousness of the non-factual statements that Caner made were a much bigger deal than being a few months off.
Sigh. Maybe someone else wants to go back and re-hash it, but I certainly don’t. Unbelievable.
But you are not saying you came to America as a teenager then another place saying you came as a toddler.
Factual – he was in places etc. Self-contradictory – he mixed up the dates a few times etc..
This is not an excuse. Just as Ergun said they were inexcusable on his part so many months ago.
Did he intentionally lie – NO.
Does Matt even know me or some of the other guys who he impugns with his comments above. NO. Matt should be ashamed of himself. Acting like a punk is beneath him.
Tim,
I’m not sure how I am acting like a “punk,” but as of now I feel I have nothing to be ashamed of… I think I have been fair and handled myself in an appropriate way in regards to this Caner situation.
But I do appreciate two things from you: 1) that you were bold enough to write a post with your name on it. 2) That you think me being a punk is beneath me.
“Did he intentionally lie – NO.”
????????????? . . . . ?
David,
We posted the same thing (close, yours gave an illustration that was perfect) at the same time.
Nate,
Davids example is accurate. He did live in Turkey for months at a time. He traveled much as a child. His date of coming to America and when he became a citizen is the issue that some seem to want to make.
Tim G,
Interesting. When did he travel much as a child? certainly not during the time that his passport was not in his parents control by order of the court.
-Jason
Jason,
Thanks again for consistently pointing out FACTS during this entire thing.
It seems that Tim is reaching for absolutely anything.
It is truly sad that even after Liberty finds him guilty enough to no longer allow him to remain as Dean his buddies still wont let up.
Matt,
One more thing…did you not say that once the investigation by Liberty U. was over, that you’d move on?
Let’s do that. It’s time.
David
Yes, the facts are embarassing. Let’s move on. Sounds like Bill Clinton.
David,
I did say we would move on… I have now posted my one post on Liberty’s findings. From here on out I see no need to bring up the issue, unless more information comes out.
As for me, and for most of the folks involved in the investigative aspect of this fiasco, the issue was not whether he was a “fake ex-muslim”. I place Debbie Kaufman out by herself in that regard, as she would hear no criticism of MoKhan. Fine, she’s welcome to her blind devotion, but now what do they do, from that perspective?
The real issue, of course, was the fact that Dr. Caner has repeatedly lied in order to “enhance” his resume. It started with the claimed debates, it then progressed to his knowledge of Islam, which was what we initially looked at from the MoKhan material. We quickly passed that up, examining his own video, not the edited video from MoKhan, to verify – and while doing significantly more research on his statements, we quickly discovered that *massive* areas in his biography were, in fact, utter fabrications. However, I will note that practically all of the major Christian investigators on this affair (I was not a major one, incidentally, but I did contribute in various ways, and was aware of most of the investigation that was going on) did NOT make an issue of his degrees. I’d like to note at this point that TurretinFan, Jason Smathers, Gene Clyatt and others did a grace filled, massively important service to the Body, as distasteful as it was.
These are not mere “misstatements”, or “discrepancies”. these are bold-faced lies. “Trained to do that which was done on 9/11″? “Youth Jihad”? Just a sampling; I could go on for about 2,000 more words simply detailing the lies he has told. I won’t, because it’s well-documented, and has been for quite some time. These facts have been compressed into “misstatements” and “discrepancies”, while calling them “factual self-contradictions”. I’m sorry, what point is there in calling a spade a rose?
There’s nothing good about this situation. There really isn’t. I hate that it happened, and I hate that there was the need to do any of this. If the man had just repented, admitted he had lied (albeit on literally hundreds of occasions – I really can understand why someone wouldn’t *want* to make that admission, but simple honesty demands it) and asked for forgiveness, it would have been a different affair altogether. Instead, we were stonewalled, all we were given was an apology for “misstatements” previously, in the disappearing apology.
It’s truly an unfortunate debacle, but as Dr. White has repeatedly stated – one man could have stopped it. Ergun Caner. He chose not to come clean, and he has paid the price – and dragged his seminary through the mud with him. Even more unfortunate is that this university has shown itself willing to obfuscate and minimize the affair all along. That’s probably the most damaging aspect of this. Liberty’s statements have not been exemplary. I do hope and pray that they have learned something about “bloggers” now. In the internet age, as in ages prior, “be sure your sin will find you out.”
This is the first time I have posted on the Caner issue. I had never heard of him until his shameful behavior on a comment thread on the Founders blog. So anything I had to say on the matter wasn’t likely to be unbiased. Plus, although I am definitely not a fan of James White, anyone questioning Caner was automatically labelled a White fan-boy. But now that it is over I suppose I can say a few things.
Caner was undoubtedly a muslim of some sort. That he was a jihadist is training is highly doubtful. Caner has apologized for “mispeaking” and no doubt he has unintentionally mispoken in the course of his ministry, as have we all. However some of his misstatements simply cannot be attributed to verbal sloppiness. I was born in NY. If I said I was born in China, it isn’t a mistatement, it is a false statement. When Caner said he was born in Turkey when he was in reality born in Sweden, well, I don’t know how you mix those up.
Liberty’s statement puts the absolute best face on the situation, but “factual statements that are self-contradictory” cannot mean anything other than Caner made false statements. To say that Caner was exonerated, particularly because he is losing his job as Dean because of false statements, is silly.
The bottom line: Caner is not guilty of everything his worst critics accuse him of, nor is he innocent of everything his reasonable critics accused him of. He embellished, and was called to account. That is how things are supposed to work. There are some good things resulting from an unfortunate situation. He still has a job. He can feed his family. Liberty regains or retains some trust they might have lost if they had not taken the steps they did. No one should be happy that someone lost their job. But we can be glad that Liberty has taken steps to correct a situation that needed correcting.
If Caner’s defenders are rejoicing because Liberty determined that Caner really was a muslim, something nearly everyone admitted except one Muslim blogger, well, that’s the silver lining and I don’t blame them for finding it. The word exoneration however, is just spin.
Bill,
It was a lot more than one Muslim blogger, who questioned if Dr. Caner was even a Muslim, or not. I wouldnt hold my breath waiting on all of those people out there in blogland to apologize for falsely accusing Dr. Caner of lying about trully being a Muslim.
David
I’d like to see a list of those people, personally. I think I’ve read practically everything posted on Caner by this point, and I can only think of one that’s posted anything of note.
David: A lot more? More than two or three other than Mr. Khan? Names?
David,
Why not respond to Bill’s points rather than once again raise up the straw man he successfully put away?
“It was a lot more than one Muslim blogger, who questioned if Dr. Caner was even a Muslim, or not. I wouldnt hold my breath waiting on all of those people out there in blogland to apologize for falsely accusing Dr. Caner of lying about trully being a Muslim.”
From what I can tell, that would be Debbie Kaufman and Mo Khan and other assorted Muslims.I would like to see any and all links to other Christians who claimed he was never a Muslim in any way. I do think that claim has been a red herring by the Caner defenders anyway. The proble was with his repeated lies about his background, where he lived, when, debates, etc.
Matt,
There were others, who claimed, or at least insinuated, that the Caners were really even Muslims. I’m not just talking about bloggers, but also commenters on blogs.
I really dont have the time, nor the inclination to do hours of research trying to hunt down all the people, who either said that the Caners were not really Muslims, or at least said that they wondered if they really were. But, if you feel that this is worth your time…go ahead. I’ve got many, many other things to do.
David
But, it seems, you’re more then willing, without doing the investigation yourself, to dispute with those who have put in the time and effort to research the facts that refute Dr. Caner’s lies. David, have you read The Caner File and looked at what it was the Caner actually has claimed time and time again from Baptist pulpits from Florida to Seattle to Oahu?
Squirrel
“But, it seems, you’re more then willing, without doing the investigation yourself, to dispute with those who have put in the time and effort to research the facts that refute Dr. Caner’s lies.”
Well said. I just don’t understand how this is even an issue. It’s blatantly obvious that some are going to stick by this man’s lies even though the gig is up. I really don’t know what they have to personally gain by refusing to even acknowledge the nature and extent of the proof stacked against Caner. I’m sorry that this man was some folk’s hero, but the cat’s out of the bag now – the emperor has no clothes.
Tim G.
You said, “Ergun did not make anything up.” He made up gibberish and past that off as Arabic 6 different times in 6 different speeches to 6 different audiences. He said he was born in Ankara, Istanbul, and Stockholm. He made up being raised in Turkey, “trained to do what was done on 9/11.” He made up learning english from the Dukes of Hazzard. He said a multitude of contradictory things. He made up being able to speak Arabic.
“This defense tactic of saying Caner has already apologized, pointing to his pseudo-apology published at the SBC Today Bunch site in which he says he “never intentionally misled anyone”, and his pseudo-apology to the students at “Campus Church” in February 2010” (FBC Jax WD) did not work.
In the SBC Today site in Podcast Edisode 26 (http://sbctoday.com
/2010/05/06/episode-26/) dated May 06, 2010 in the following posts: #38, #39, #48, #66, #71, #75, #88, and #91 these authors: Tim Rogers, David Worley, and Tim G. (Guthrie?) all repeatedly asserted that Caner had repented of his inconsistencies in his testimony. Then, strikingly, in post #108 by Tim G., and most especially in post #109 by Tim Rogers, they very strongly indicated that Caner was innocent of all charges and that he had not done anything wrong. (Tim G. you said Caner did not lie about his family, which Caner did every time he lied about where he was raised and what they allowed him to be trained to do: ‘that which was done on 9/11). He lied horribly about his family.
The summary seemed to be ‘Caner’s repentance was and is real’ and ‘Caner was and is innocent.’
Tim G. and Tim Rogers, how do you repent of innocence? You say it again Tim G.: ‘Ergun did not make anything up.’ Look at what Tim Roger said in post 109: “Here is the deal. We have posted the rebuttal to all of the main charges–the Caners were not Muslims before coming to Christ. LU has done their investigation concerning the charges that Dr. Caner was not truthful in his presentations. Their response, he would not receive any reprimand and they are staying with him as President of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. The blogger/Calvinist/Muslim coalition did everything they could to get this on a national media outlet. CT picked up the story and investigated and as a result of an independent investigation by a journalist and an internal investigation by LU there is not charges that have stuck to Dr. Caner.
Here is the deal. You have now called Dr. Ergun Caner a liar long enough here on SBC Today. You will not use our dime to call him that any longer. Dr. Ergun and Emir Caner are not liars and we have proven to you and the world that the information presented by MoKhan was false and done for the sole purpose to discredit God’s men. I have contacted the other managers here at SBC Today and we have decided that our task is complete. We have made available all of the clear evidence that is needed to point out that Dr. Ergun and Emir Caner are the real deal. We are at the point that this conversation is finished and it will not be discussed here any longer. The truth is out there and the false innuendos are out there. God help the Calvinist bloggers that have joined hands with the Muslims to discredit Brothers in Christ. You may chose to believe the false innuendos presented by the Muslims all you like, God will separate the goats from the sheep. I choose to be on the sheep side.
Tim Rogers and the SBC Today Team.”
S
Saying Caner “did not make anything up” does not work. He just lost his job as President. Why did they punish him like that if he did not lie, and make things up?
I said, “He said he was born in Ankara, Istanbul, and Stockholm.” He said he lived in Ankara, but I cannot find any evidence he said he was born there. I should have double checked that before I wrote it. I believed I had seen evidence of his saying that he was born in Ankara. But I cannot find it. As such, I believe what I wrote is wrong, that I mishandled the evidence, and that I have sinned. I repent of this. I apologize to Ergun Caner, and to each and everyone who read this. Please forgive me.
Hi DAVID WORLEY from SBC today
It’s me, Christiane.
You know, during this whole thing I kept imagining children’s stories about deception and things being presented in ways that were not ‘real’.
Like that story by C.S. Lewis, the one where they dress up a donkey in lion-suit and they hope he doesn’t ‘bray’ and that no one looks too closely and discovers the truth?
“”But if someone who had never seen a lion looked at Puzzle in his lion-skin he just might mistake him for a lion, if he didn’t come to close, and if the light was not too good, and if Puzzle didn’t let out a bray and didn’t make any noise with his hoofs.”
C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle
That part, David, about ‘the light being too good’ just speaks to me because here is what I think happened: some good people wanted to protect their friend from being found out, and they didn’t want the light to be shone too brightly by anyone else, or the deception would be all over, and people would no that things were not as they seemed.
But David, people can’t live like that in Christianity without the light, you know this from the tragedy in my own Church where abuse was covered up. Only bringing it out into the light will make things better. Painful? Yes, very. But absolutely necessary.
This HAD to pay out in the light, David.
It is painful: in the Body of Christ, when one member is suffering, others are NOT joyful. That’s how we know who we are.
Love, L’s
I meant to say ‘this had to PLAY out in the light’ . . .
and so it did.
Christiane,
I’m not trying to cover up anything. What in the world are you talking about? All I’ve ever said to people…who had an agenda… was to lay off relentlessly posting and commenting on this…give a brother the benefit of the doubt…wait on the investigation…accept the apology he gave for exaggerations and mis speaking.
So, I really dont know what in the world you’re talking about.
David
Also, Christiane, in case you’re wondering about those with an agenda, who ran this stuff in the ground. Muslims, who didnt like that the Caners were ex Muslims, who became Christians; moderates/liberals in the SBC, who hate anything and anyone, who’s conservative; and 5 point Calvinists, who cant stand the Ergun Caner because he’s anti-aggressive, obsessed, 5 pointers.
David
Just a point of clarification–I’m such a 5 point Calvinist that I won’t let my wife plant anything but TULIPS (Haa) and I don’t hate him. His comment that anyone who believes Calvinism believes a doctrine of Satan (or something to that effect) really gnawed my craw and I didn’t appreciate it. But, no, I don’t hate the dude.
However, there are some Calvinists that seem to.
Joe,
You’re right. Not all 5 point Calvinist hate Dr. Caner. But, there are a bunch out there who do. Of course, officially, they dont hate anybody.
David
This series of comments remind me of the Wimbledon tennis match just finished. Back and forth, back and forth and then a clear hit and a winner was declared!
It reminds me of it even though there is no winners here!
This is my first comment hereon, ever, so, hello all!
I would like to parse the Liberty statement CAPITALIZING my parse:
The statement made today by Liberty University after reviewing the findings of a four man Investigative body:
” After a thorough and exhaustive review of Dr. Ergun Caner’s public statements, a committee consisting of four members of Liberty University’s Board of Trustees has concluded that Dr. Caner has made factual statements that are self-contradictory.
DR. CANER MADE FACTUAL STATEMENTS THAT CONTRADICTED EACH OTHER. WE HAVE DISCOVERED PUBLIC PERSONAL FAMILY LEGAL DOCUMENTS THAT AFFIRM FACTUAL STATEMENTS HE HAS MADE AND THEN WE HAVE COMPARED THEM WITH TROUBLING PUBLIC VIDEO RECORDINGS AND WRITINGS THAT CONTRADICT THOSE PUBLIC PERSONAL FAMILY LEGAL DOCUMENTS. WE ALSO FIND AN INTERVIEW DONE BY A TURKISH NEWSGROUP, WHO EASILY COULD VERIFY FACTS BEING STATED THAT ALSO CONFIRM PUBLIC PERSONAL FAMILY LEGAL DOCUMENTS, DMV RECORDS WHICH CONTRADICT HIS PUBLIC VIDEO RECORDINGS AND WRITINGS. WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, AND NOW DR. CANER CONFIRMS THAT, THOSE PUBLIC PERSONAL FAMILY LEGAL DOCUMENTS, THE DMV RECORDS AND THE TURKISH NEWS REPORTER’S PUBLISHED ARTICLE ARE IN FACT FACTUAL, TRUE AND THE OTHERS ARE NOT.
However, the committee found no evidence to suggest that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim who converted to Christianity as a teenager, but, instead, found discrepancies related to matters such as dates, names and places of residence.
WE SEE DR. CANER CONFUSED HIS AUDIENCES ABOUT WHAT KIND OF MUSLIM HE REALLY IS. WE HAVE DETERMINED THAT HE IS NOT A DEVOUT JIHADIST OR TERRORIST, BUT, IN FACT, HE EMBELLISHED HIS STORY A BIT, WELL MORE THAN A LITTLE BIT, GETTING CAUGHT UP IN ALL THE ATTENTION OF THE MOMENTS, MOMENT BY MOMENT MOMENTS FROM THE WORLD PRESS AFTER 9/11 AND HE HAS TAKEN FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT, APOLOGIZING TO US, WHO ALSO WERE DUPED BY HIS EMBELLISHMENT STORIES AS WELL AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC. WE THINK MAYBE MOHAMED KHAN MAY NOT HAVE EXAGGERATED THE FACTS ABOUT HIM? WE COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND WHY MOHAMED KHAN WOULD ACCUSE DR. CANER OF BEING A X FAKE MUSLIM. DR. CANER SEES THAT NOW TOO. OUR INVESTIGATION HAS HELPED HIM CLEAR THAT UP IN HIS OWN MIND.
Dr. Caner has cooperated with the board committee and has apologized for the discrepancies and misstatements that led to this review.
DR. CANER IS A BIT HUMBLED, SORRY AND IS INDEED STRUGGLING WITH HIS OWN WEAKNESS, PRIDE, AS WE ALL DO FROM TIME TO TIME WHEN WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH EVIDENCES TO THE CONTRARY. NONE OF US CAME HERE WITH STELLAR STONES TO THROW AT DR. CANER. WE ARE MINDFUL OF THE LORD’S ADMONITION, “he who is without sin cast the first stone”. WE WANT THE VERY BEST RESTORATION FOR DR. CANER NOW THAT HE HAS COME CLEAN AND REPENTED TO US.
Dr. Caner’s current contractual term as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary expires on June, 30, 2010.
DR. CANER HAS BROUGHT THIS EMBARRASSMENT UPON HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY AND THIS INSTITUTION AND THEREFORE WE CANNOT ALLOW HIM TO CONTINUE IN SUCH A HIGH POSITION OF HONOR AND TRUST AS THE DEAN AND PRESIDENT OF LIBERTY UNIVERSITY’S THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY. IT IS NOT LOGICAL THAT HE SHOULD HAVE SUCH AN HONOR NOW THAT WE HAVE A CLEARER UNDERSTANDING OF THE FACTS.
THEREFORE: Dr. Caner will no longer serve as Dean of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.
The university has offered, and Dr. Caner has accepted, an employment contract for the 2010-2011 academic year. Dr. Caner will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a professor.”
WE RECOGNIZE DR. CANER IS A GIFTED MAN. HE IS QUITE A STORY TELLER. HIS STORY TELLING IS ALWAYS FULL OF EMOTION AND MOVES HIS AUDIENCES WELL. WE WISH TO HELP HIM DEVELOP THIS GIFT AND SO WE ARE GOING TO ASK HIM TO CONTINUE ON AS A PROFESSOR. HE WILL BE MONITORED. HE WILL BE UNDER A WATCHFUL REVIEW MORE CLOSELY NOW THAT THIS MATTER IS BEHIND US AND WE WISH HIM WELL IN THE RESTORATION THAT FOLLOWS HIS SINCERE REPENTANCE, WHICH HE HAS BEGUN.
I’m confused. Did Dr. Caner misspeak? Or did he make factual statements that are self-contradictory?
Tim G. seems to be saying the former. He said that Dr. Caner mixed up dates and times and that Dr Caner “did NOT make anything up.”
David (Volfan) on the other hand gave an analogy that he was making two contradictory statements (I preached in February. I preached in March.) that are both factual (for the same conference.)
Tim G.’s solution was for Dr. Caner to apologize, which he has. However, according to David’s anology, his solution was to explain how both statements are true, which Dr. Caner has not.
So for example, Dr. Caner has said he was born in Sweden. He also said he was born in Istanbul, Turkey.
Is Tim G. right? Did Dr. Caner misspeak? How does this fit in with the statement that “Ergun did NOT make anything up.” Does he just need to apologize for this? And short of looking for corroborating evidence or asking Dr. Caner to explain, how do we know which public statements are correct and which ones are mistaken?
OR, is David right? Are both of those self-contradictory statements factual? And if so, according to David’s analogy, doesn’t Dr. Caner need to explain how both are true?
Which is it?
“So for example, Dr. Caner has said he was born in Sweden. He also said he was born in Istanbul, Turkey.”
I finally watched some of the vids on him myself, and when he talks about being born in Turkey (when he spoke some place in Hawaii) he also calls himself a “sand monkey” and says “but I’ve been called worse.” It’s clear from the comments after stating he was born in Turkey, he intended for the people there to believe that was the case, thus he didn’t simply “misspeak”.
I also contacted a friend who one the one hand despises Wade Burleson and his ilk so is hesitant to want to side with some of those going against the Caners. But I had him watch the vids of Ergun “speaking Arabic,” b/c this is a friend who both he and his wife served as missionaries in the ME, and learned Arabic and learned to speak Arabic. He’s conclusion was: Ergun was not speaking anything close arabic, but sounded like he was trying to apply sounds from Hebrew to supposdily Arabic words.
He didn’t go into details, but he also said some of what Ergun was passing off as aspects of muslim culture/attitudes/and beliefs are things that when you’re over there you learn quickly aren’t true.
I hate to say it, but the more I hear from sources outside of the blog-o-sphere when it comes to analyzing the Caners, the more they sound like frauds.
JOhn D.
Maybe you need to follow the conversation a little more closely. I was simply giving someone an illustration at how facts could be given that were contradictory.
Also, John, maybe you missed Dr. Caner’s apology for exaggerations and mis speaking?
David
I cannot believe what I am reading here. Facts cannot be self-contradictory. Facts are true. Truth cannot contradict truth.
Volfan’s example doesn’t make sense. If you say you preached in Minnesota in February, 2001 and you later say you preached in Minnesota in March, 2001, those two statements are not contradictory. They may both be true or both false or one true and the other false but they do not contradict each other. In order to contradict one would have to imply the other was false. They do not.
If you say the ONLY time I have ever preached in Minnesota was February, 2001 and later said they ONLY time I have ever preached in Minnesota was March, 2001, those two statements are contradictory. They cannot both be true. One or neither can be true but they cannot both be true because they are contradictory.
Liberty’s statement that Ergun Caner made factual statements that are self-contradictory is gibberish that makes no sense.
Ron,
Are you serious? Of course they both cant be true. Good grief, Charlie Brown. That’s why they’re contradictory. Dates of preaching at places are facts that someone is giving. The facts didnt line up. The facts contradicted each other.
Maybe this is a difference in how people talk in different parts of the country, or else its people with an agenda trying to make a big, big, big deal out of every word used in the statement…to try to shed a bad light on it. Hummmmmmmmm
David
Yeah, it’s how you are using the word “fact” in an odd way, along with Liberty so I guess you are in good company.
From dictioinary.com:
Fact –
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth
2. something known to exist or to have happened
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened
Nate,
One more time….the facts were given as facts when one of the facts was not truly a fact. It was not a fact, but it was given as a fact….but it was contradictory to other things given as fact. Understand?
David
No matter what, his credibility is gone!
Jose,
Have you ever sinned? Have you ever failed to live up to God’s expectations of you? Have you ever said things that you wished you hadnt said?
Or, are you perfect? No? Well, I guess all your credibility is gone, too, now, aint it? Good gracious alive….self righteousness and condemnation is raining in this Pharasaical comment thread. I’d better get out of here…since there’s so many perfect, morally good, never fail people in here.
David
David,
Don’t be ridiculous, that isnt what anyone is saying. You always make the issue about other peoples character as you vehemently defend “buddies” and push an agenda.
Deal with the real issue and stop making this about others OR just quit commenting.
.
This is the first time I am SBC Voices. Many here seem surprised about this info, as if its new to them? For those who are new to this info, here is a bit of history on it, I was one of the earlier blogs to pick it up, but I link to earlier one’s still:
http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/06/liberty-university-drops-caner-thanks-to-bloggers-pushing-this-story/
.
wow, Papa….thanks for contributing to Christianity. All of Christendom owes you a great big thanks for making it better for all the ages to come. You’ve single handedly saved the world with your great work….hours of research on this issue….and with all the time you’ve poured into this. I’m sure that many, many people will be saved from you and all the other bloggers and commenters, who’ve put so much time into this. I’d bet that many hearts were healed….many marriages were saved….many hungry people were fed….many people caught in disasters were helped….many churches were started due to yall’s great work.
David
And Papa deserved how much of this vitriol?
as much as applies…and to anyone else that spent hours and hours of their time on this issue.
There really are better things to do with our time, wouldnt you agree? In fact, this will probably be my last minute spent on this issue. I’ve got other, better things to do with my time. But, all of you that are trying to save the Christian community and the world thru all of this…go for it. Waste your time while thinking you’re doing something great.
David
David,
Then why do you keep spending so much time on the topic? Youve commented as much as anyone and have devoted as much time as anyone else that I know.
This comment of yours is laughable.
I really think people are misconstruing the term “factual statements”. It does NOT mean statements that are factually true, but rather statements that are asserted as fact by the one making them. That they are self-contradictory means that such statements (or half of them at least) cannot possibly be true.
Let’s be clear: If Caner said he debated Joe Islam in March 2001 when it was really Feb. 2001, no reasonable person and certainly no investigatory board is going to remove him from his position as a result of such a mis-statement. False statements such as being born in Instanbul and raised and trained to be a jihadist are much more serious, and cannot easily be understood as slips of the tongue.
It is the jihadist statement that I cannot believe has stood for so long. If Caner were a jihadist in training, and then converted to Christianity, would he not have gone to the police? Has his mosque been investigated? Any arrests? Surely as an American and a Christian, Caner would have exposed a terror cell in his own hometown.
I agree. When details are similar it’s easy to misspeak. But notice that all the analogies given are different months of the same year!
What Caner is doing isn’t just confusing names and dates, it’s changing the order of events and creating a completely different story. How do you confuse “I was born in Sweden, came to America at age 3 and grew up in Ohio” with “I was born in Istanbul, Turkey, grew up training to be a jihadist in Turkey, then came to America at age 15.”
BIG difference. He wasn’t off by a month or two. He missed the timing of his coming to America by more than a decade, confusing both the place of his birth and where he spent his entire cognitive childhood.
Bill,
Dr. Caner apologized for exaggerations.
David
exaggerations? Over a 9 year period in front of thousands from a stage as a preacher/teacher. Even paid to exaggerate.
Matt,
I’m starting to believe that no matter what’s said or done, you wont be happy until Dr. Caner is hanged by the neck… even then, you’d probably be one of those people that would want to place his body in an open coffin for all to see and take pics with…like in the old West days.
David
David: I don’t think so, but I’d have to go back and look. To my recollection, he apologized for mis-speaking. But even so, saying you were born in Turkey and trained as a jihadist, when in reality you were born in Sweden and raised in Ohio is not mispeaking, nor is it exaggeration. It is simply false. Does anyone really believe he has been removed as Dean and President because he’s a little muddle-headed?
Christiane (BTW,The implications of the use of “Christ-iane” by you is a joke in itself. We both know you have never repented and believed the biblical gospel.),
I have a question for you.
Why is it that you have chased the Ergun Caner story like dog on track, yet you have never stated one word of outcry on any comment thread about the horror of the Pope protecting pedophiles posing as Priests with willful intent and with knowledge their sick and sinful crimes?
cb scott,
I have tried to send you an email about your last comment. It isnt going through. Email me at matt_svoboda @ hotmail.com so I have your right email in order to answer your question fully.
Thanks.
Simple, cb. She.Hates.Conservatives
Any chance she has to get a dig in on any conservative, she’ll take it. Period.
I mean, Caner kinda did this to himself but it’s not like she has any dog in this hunt. As you said, she”s not saved no matter what Wade and Debbie tell her.
Joe,
That’s exactly why some have treated this like it was Nixon and Watergate all over again.
David
Michael,
Thanks for posting the full statement from Liberty… It is very clear that they have dismissed Dr. Caner as President and Dean of Liberty because of their findings — This is a Disciplinary Action.
Matt,
It also very clear that the SBC-Today guys, along with Peter Lumpkins, have lost “ALL CREDIBILITY”… I think it is more than time that these gentleman’s Blogs be removed from the “most influential” SBC blog list on SBC Voices. SBC Voices is doing a disservice to the Southern Baptist Convention, and all Southern Baptist, by continuing to promote these men as “influential voice” among us — they are not! Please consider moving these guys to the “B-List”.
Grace Always,
Greg,
Your hatred and mean ness is so evident to anyone that really has eyes to see. You clearly do not like SBC Today fellas calling for strong, sound doctrine…and this is what we have to hear from you on a continual basis. How could any of us ever partner and cooperate with someone that has an attitude like you do towards us?
David
David,
Why do you “ALWAYS” play the “hatred card”… Like the boy who cried wolf, your use of EXTREME Hyperbole so often to attempt to discredit your opponents no longer works. Everyone knows you are just crying wolf again and there is no wolf.
I don’t hate you David… I just think you guys at SBC Today are pursuing a “Divisive and Unhealthy” agenda for the SBC and you should not be represented as “Influential Voices” in the SBC — You are not! That’s not hatred David, that’s just facts.
As far as your question of “How could any of us ever partner and cooperate with someone that has an attitude like you do towards us?”
How very predictable of the “Baptist Identity” Movement… Whenever someone disagrees, criticize, or refuses to “kiss your ring” you immediately think of not cooperating with that person or group. And before you say this is not true remember you guys are the one’s with the reputation of banning anyone who disagrees with you from even commenting on blogs… which is a very good indication of what your beloved “Baptist Identity” group would do if ever you were in the majority in the SBC.
As far as you SBC Today fellas “calling for strong, sound doctrine”… now that was funny
Grace Always,
Greg,
I have had many people ask me to remove Lumpkins and SBC Today off of the “Influential Blogs” list…
While I control all of the content at SBC Voices, that is still Tony Kummer’s “area.” It is his decision who to put on and remove from the “Influential blogs” list.
Matt,
Thanks, I will let Tony know how I feel
So, let me get this straight, Greg, when people disagree with you, then your answer is to censor them? Wow! When you dont like someone, your answer is to censor them? Wow, again!
Is this how you’d approach the SBC? To censor and put away anyone that does not agree with you? AND, you call the SBC Today fellas narrow? You are just as narrow as us, just narrow in a different way. You are just as censoring as you claim that SBC Today is. You’re no different than SBC Today.
I’ve never censored anyone at my blog, and I’ve never censored anyone at SBC Today. Now, the others in the group have censored some people that just continually bashed someone, or who continued to attack over and over again. But, I have not censored anyone. Well, let me take that back. I have censored the porno people, who have tried to post a comment to their website. And, wait a minute, I have deleted comments from people, who were cursing and saying very vulgar, nasty things in their comments. So, let me back up a little. But, I dont censor people just because they disagree with me, or dont like me. But, if you cant handle someone disagreeing with you….if you’re that insecure, then, by all means, censor me.
Wow, again.
Matt, I would hope that you and Tony Kummer would be bigger than this. I would hope that you and Tony would allow dissent and a difference of opinion. But, if you dont, I still will sleep tonite. I will still get up in the morning and drink coffee and try to serve the Lord. I will still stand for sound doctrine and common sense in the SBC.
David
Joe,
You are right. Talk to you later.
Hi C.B. and JOE B.
love you both dearly, as you know .
Be peaceful,
Christiane
Okay, so Caner goofed, and goofed in a way that led to his loosing his position as Dean and president of LBS. The point is obvious that his failure effects and affects all of us. Since Liberty is to all intents and purposes a private school, and not a SBC institution, and since continuing to stir a cow pile releases unpleasant odors, to continue to discuss this issue is simply to arouse noxious feelings, it follows that the best thing is to put on sack cloth and ashes and grieve over this professing Christian’s failure as we would grieve over a family member’s failure. I can cite many chapters and verses of like failures in Baptist history and in my own life time. Thank the Lord. When He forgives our sins, he buries them in the deepest sea of His forgetfulness and posts a ‘no fishing’ sign. Just think about this: If brother Caner were to go into a Moslem country, where they strictly enforce, Islamic law, he would, more than likely, be executed…just because he had converted from Islam to the Christian Faith. Also there is always the possibility that a Jehadist might show up, determined to execute vengeance. I grieve for the brother’s failure as I grieve over the evangelist in Georgia over 50 years ago, who told a lie in order to get some people forward so he could say he had some converts. I think this discussion ought to be closed. How would any of the present participants like to have their shortcomings, the ones that really matter, being hashed and rehashed from now on. God forbid! Remember Jesus said, if your brother trespasses against you, and turns again, seeking your forgiveness seven times and even seventy times seven, you are to forgive him. Those who were right to expose the failures ought to lead the way in ending this as the goal has been reached.
This entire episode is one sad tale. The guy got busted for saying things that were not true. It is just that simple.
What Liberty does with him is Liberty’s business.
I don’t have any decisions to make relative to him or his life and ministry. I am glad for that. The SBC doesn’t have any decisions to make, as far as I can tell. I don’t know if he is a trustee or employee of an SBC institution. I sure hope not.
I hope that he makes the best of his life going forward. To do that I think he will need to speak about all this honestly, and not try to spin things.
People who have done worse in the church have gone on to rehabilitate themselves. But that doesn’t usually happen overnight.
“What Liberty does with him is Liberty’s business”
You would benfit from reading Tom Chantry’s blog piece about this and how it affects all evangelicals.
Matt,
Dont you believe in the sovereignty of God?
David
Are you trying to imply that believing in the Sovereignty of God means we must condone unrepentent pastors and seminary professors?
Save it for your ignorant sheep, friend.
Matt,
I’m gonna answer you on this…then I’m probably done…I want to be done…because there’s no use trying to help people see things that they dont want to see. But, my comment above simply means that my God is a lot bigger than what Dr. Caner has done, or not done. God’s plans and purposes do not rest on what’s said in blogdom, nor on what a Seminary prof., or college prof, or Pastor says or does. His work will carry on. God will continue to do what He wants to do.
David
Matt,
The sheep to which God has assigned Vol his stewardship as a shepherd are not an ignorant flock. And we both know you do not count him as a friend.
You don’t wear hypocrisy very well Matt. So don’t put it on any more. it does not “suit” you very well.
Matt:
Thanks for referring me to Mr. Chantry’s blog. I have read it. I understand the connection he makes between evangelical Christianity creating a culture where things like what Caner did can thrive.
But notwithstanding that point, it is a point but not THE point.
In fact, I believe taking other people’s faults and misdeeds and applying them to larger groups (i.e. the SBC, the entire evangelical world etc.) is often, in my opinion, more a symptom of excessive self condemnation which is really just idolatry, in many cases.
What I said stands, I believe.
None of us can do one thing about Caner, unless we are on Liberty’s board. And trying to take blame or act as though we can or should do something, is really just an attempt to both condemn ourselves and, thus, elevate our own importance.
I guess since my church doesn’t get into any of the stuff Chantry talks about or Caner did (I hardly know who the guy is except for the controversy), it’s hard for me to get all invested in this except to see it as a sad thing. Much like the many other scandals, episodes in the church – Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, etc., the list goes on. All of these things are embarrassing for Christianity. But in most cases, there is nothing for me to do about them. That seems to be the case for me here.
Of course if Mr. Chantry and others want to spend the time seeing the bigger picture and how they are actually a part of this in some way, I am not going to spend time trying to stop him.
But it’s a big world. And there are so many bad things in it. I only have the time and energy (and moral obligation) to accept responsibility for a few of them.
Like BP. You know – we are all responsible for the BP spill because of all the oil we use….
“But it’s a big world. And there are so many bad things in it. I only have the time and energy (and moral obligation) to accept responsibility for a few of them.”
Yet, here you are?
L’s,
I love you and when I say that to you it is not as a hypocrite. I do love you and that is why I tell you that without repentance and faith in the biblical gospel you will hopelessly burn in hell from everlasting to everlasting.
Greg Alford,
Credibility is not a subject on which you individually should specifically comment.
cb scott,
Comming from you… I take that as a compliment
BTW L’s, you did not answer my question about the Pope.
Therefore, I will ask it again. Maybe you did not see it when you decided to share with me how much you love me.
Why is it that you have chased the Ergun Caner story like dog on track, yet you have never stated one word of outcry on any comment thread about the horror of the Pope protecting pedophiles posing as Priests with willful intent and with knowledge their sick and sinful crimes?
cb scott,
I emailed you answering your question and explaining why I did it through an email.
Thanks.
Matt
It ‘taint exactly any of my business, but you did write it in a public blog comment thread and I’m dying of curiosity.
Are telling cb you’re answering his question to L’s by email?
lol… No, Joe. He asked me a question that has nothing to do with this thread so I am emailing the answer to him.
Matt,
Joe is a character isn’t he?
He just had to ask.
I, too, am LOL.
I love that crazy guy.
Christiane
Hi CB
From what I have learned, there was a ‘trial’ planned for a priest who was dying, and did die three weeks after Benedict put a hold on the trial. I do know WHY the case was being considered at the level of Benedict, a Cardinal at that time:
it involved accusations of abuse within the Church building (confessional), and so the case was elevated to a matter of Canon Law.
The case had already been handled through the legal courts system and at the diocesan level. The matter of referral was based on the very complicated Canon Law of our Church.
Did Benedict fail in his duty? As he knew the man accused was near death, I am not sure how that would impact his judgment to proceed or to put a hold on the case. Perhaps it might have been wiser to proceed, but the dying man would have not been able to participate himself in the proceedings very well. And Canon Law cases are extremely rare in an abuse matter, which is usually handled by the Cardinal who presides over the Diocese where the abuse occurred.
BTW, our Church immediately refers known cases to the legal authorities, and keeps records NOW, something ALL denominations need to consider.
Let me ask YOU a question: how does your Church handle clergy predators? I have only heard the side of Tiffany Croft and of Christa Brown. What say YOU, C.B., about how the SBC and its many ‘autonomous’ Churches cooperate to protect the innocent from predators? I would like to know YOUR thoughts.
It might open up a dialogue that can actually do some good, this time.
Matt,
Just a short time ago I read your answer to me on my Iphone. Thanks. Your answer is fair enough. I had thought you might be an interloper like L’s who cruises through Baptist blogs spewing her venom to satisfy her twisted hatred for biblical Christianity while showering the unenlightened with her particular brand of Liberation Theology.
One thing though Matt, remember if no SBC church is around, we Southern Baptists are to start one as soon as possible.
cb scott,
lol… I am doing the best I can!
I’m glad you know that I have no “hatred for biblical Christianity.” Which is another reason why I love and believe in the work of the SBC.
Sorry for being so much trouble, Matt.
C.B. is not happy with my support of Debbie’s work to search out the truth no matter where it led.
I am left wondering why it was that Dr. Caner’s supporters didn’t try to help him in a real way, not just by trying to ‘cover up’ what was already ‘out there’?
Actually, Matt, it was the bullying and aggressiveness of a few of the supporters that very likely fueled a resolve in those seeking the truth to continue their work.
Dr. Caner was quiet. The guys ‘at the top’ were silent.
Liberty did not comment formally until they completed their inquiry.
What got everyone’s attention:
Wade and his family were threatened by an anonymous blogger,
and a strident few ‘supporters’ name-called, ‘advised’, bullied, and persecuted Debbie for her efforts, to no avail.
She had seen the treatment of Tiffany Croft, and Christa Brown, and Sheri Klouda, and said to herself: no more.
Debbie was determined to find out the truth and bring it into the light.
So the ‘supporters’ actually ‘encouraged’ her, if you will, to stand strong. She had seen enough nonsense done to others, and she wasn’t having any of it.
Would be nice for everyone to ask themselves ‘what really happened here’ and what can we learn from it?
As for me, I am glad that Dr. Caner has lost credibility as a ‘jihad expert’. Will he continue his ‘Islamophobic’ crusade? There is certainly a paying audience hungry for that kind of entertainment.
He may continue. Unless he has a change of heart.
But, in this world, where the fresh winds of the Holy Spirit blow where they will, anything can happen.
Change is not always to be feared.
L’s,
I am glad you asked me that question. I don’t know how other Southern Baptists pastors or Southern Baptist churches handle low-life pedophile trash. Naturally, I have heard some stories from other guys. And you are right. Each Southern Baptist church is autonomous. If you don’t like that, take it up with God. They get that concept from His Book. Of course your “group of religious people” did not get your structure from His Book. History seems to record that you guys kinda made up the rules as you went along. Therefore, you have no ability to understand the concept of an autonomous local church, because that is a biblical concept having nothing to do with Canon Law.
But, I do digress. Let me make an effort to answer your question which was:
“….how does your Church handle clergy predators?” I will tell you enough and not too much in order to keep you from being sick at your stomach and to keep me from any,….let us say, problems.
In all truth, the couple that had the misfortune to sneak into the church of which I served at the time met with similar problems the several pedophiles I dealt with before I became a Christian and was later called of God into His service in the local church. It was the strangest thing. They were suddenly overcome with severe bodily pain that did not heal up for an extended period of time. And the last time I checked they no longer had any desire to work in Southern Baptist life or any other Christian ministry. L’s, I don’t think they would even venture to become Catholic Priests.
L’s, that is the best answer I can give you in public. I trust it satisfies your desire to know.
“They were suddenly overcome with severe bodily pain that did not heal up for an extended period of time. ”
LOL
got it in one
Hopefully now that you are a Christian, you have found ‘another way’, just as effective, but with a ‘more controlled strength’ as was the Way of Our Lord with people. Thanks for sharing.
P.S. Regarding comment # 111,
I thought it was actually pretty good.
Particularl y that part about Debbie getting ‘fired up’ by all the nonsense. Absolutely right on.
One more thing L’s,
I would bet the farm I have helped put more pedophiles in prison than your Priest has.
And one more thing, your comment #111 is filled with more twisted content than Obama’s State of the Union Address.
Greg Alford,
I almost missed your statement to me. I am glad you take that as a compliment. It fills my heart with joy to know I made made you feel better. Because, in all truth Greg, I have noticed you whine awful lot.
I guess your feelings are still hurt because you did not win the door-prize at the LifeWay Book Fair. Cheer Up Greg. Maybe you will win the raffle for the genuine leather bound KJV Bible at the SWORD of the LORD Pastors’ Conference this fall.
cb,
I think you miss-spelled the word “Wine” in your first statement to me… it does not have an “h” in it.
“Cheer Up Greg. Maybe you will win the raffle for the genuine leather bound KJV Bible at the SWORD of the LORD Pastors’ Conference this fall. Now that was funny
In all truth CB, you need to lighten up… you take yourself far to serious.
Grace Always,
L’s,
In regard to comment #111, Obama thought his State of the Union Address was right on also. Yet, it seems that an honest Supreme Court Justice called his hand on it. Now, it seems the whole country is catching on also.
I feel sorry for Debbie, L’s. She got caught up in her need for attention and she was fueled by those who have used her weakness. Now you on the other hand, I do not feel sorry for you. You did what you did with willful intent. You used Debbie to promote your hatred for biblical Christianity.
Yet, I do feel a great sorrow for you L’s, but for a different reason. We are now another day closer to the End of the Age and you are still lost and on your way to a Devil’s Hell, hopeless without Christ.
You are not really a “bad” person L’s except for your twisted hatred for all things of a conservative, biblical Christian nature and the fact that you are a lost sinner before a just and righteous God. I do enjoy your banter from time-to-time. But I can’t let that relax my knowledge of the reality of your lostness and your aggressive passion to attack conservative Christians and your sewing of Liberation Theology among the ignorant masses here in Blogtown.
I am praying for you L’s. I am praying for the salvation of your soul. I am praying that you see the truth of the gospel before it is too late. You, as am I, are getting old L’s. Our days are running out. You said earlier that “change is not always to be feared.” Well, I believe that to be true also L’s. If you will recognize you are a lost sinner before a righteous God, repent and believe the biblical gospel, you can be changed by the power of God into His born again, free from the wrath to come, Blood washed, child of God through the glorious atonement of His Son, Jesus Christ. You will never have to worry about keeping Canon Law again L’s. You will be eternally secure by the grace of God forever and ever.
I shall pray for you again, tonight L’s.
Hey there Greg. I was not in reference to wine. I was saying you “whine” an awful lot. Whine means to snivel or complain in a peevish, self-pitying way.
Greg, it is not me that needs to lighten up. If anything, I don’t take many things in life seriously enough.
But it is serious to me that some of you people have abused Ergun Caner in a manner that is beyond even what pagans would do. You, along with others have shamed yourselves before the secular world and among those of the household of faith. You, along with others sought to torture a brother to satisfy your blood lust. And in the case of many, and you probably are in the mix, attacked him because of your burning hatred of his father-in the ministry, Paige Patterson.
Ergun may well have sinned in saying some things Greg. But, you and a lot of others that have willfully entered in to his graceless, merciless torture are going to have to account for your own sin. You are not without guilt Greg Alford. Of course you are not alone but in the end, you will find little comfort in that fact either.
CB,
You know not what you speak of… But then when has that ever stopped you from foaming at the mouth and making a complete fool of yourself..
I challenge you to provide evidence/examples where I have abused, tortured, or attacked Dr. Caner in any way concerning this matter. You will find nothing whatsoever sir to back up your false claim.
In short you sir are a “LIAR!”
Good day,
Greg, don’t you know that even pointing out that Caner lied for 9 years is considered abuse, torture and attacks by these guys? Don’t allow them to define anything. They are blind guides.
They spend their time “attacking” and rebuking the messengers of the Caner scandal. It is how they defend Caner. If they focused on actual facts and content of what Caner has done for 9 years, they would not have a leg to stand on and they know it.
They have tried to define the ‘scandal’ from the start.
Matt,
I never said Ergun did not sin. My contention is that some people have, maybe you are among them, have taken this to an extreme that even pagans would not.
Some, such as Greg Alford and others, have such an animosity toward Ergun’s father in the faith, Paige Patterson, that they have entered into this with a blood thirsty glee.
Some, like L’s have entered this because they simply hate conservative Christianity.
Only God knows what motivated the Burlesons and Debbie Kaufman. But I seriously doubt it had anything to do with truth and justice or personal integrity.
Matt, I do wish my brothers at SBC TODAY had not used the word “exoneration” in their post about Liberty’s decision. Their use of that word proved to be very unfortunate. The use of “exoneration” in their post was like throwing red meat to starving dogs. The result was a call to a gathering of the merciless and graceless among us. And they are Legion.
The decision made by Liberty was anything but an exoneration. Whatever it was is really yet to be seen.
Matt, to kick and humiliate a man after he is down and crushed is torture. It was also torture for his wife and children. In the end Matt, many people just went along for the ride and the thrill of seeing a hanging. In the end, Matt, it was simply a crude display the inherent blood lust that still haunts the human heart even after we have been born again.
This whole thing has been a shame among us Matt. Of course, now that Ergun is gone, we must now determine who we are going to slaughter next. Whom would you now think to be a worthy candidate?
“Matt, to kick and humiliate a man after he is down and crushed is torture. ”
CB, This is hyperbole not worthy of you. Caner has never even admitted he ‘lied’. He said he mispoke and then took that statement down.
But, so far, he has never mentioned he lied over a 9 year timeframe to thousands. He has never even cleaned up the timline. He is not down. He has kept his job. He is NOT gone as you suggest.
As a matter of fact, He has recently maintained his innocence to his students. Does this sound like a man who has learned anything?
The only way the defenders of Caner can get by with such inane defenses is if folks are not listening to Caner’s actual words in his many ‘talks’. I know Caner has been busy trying to get many pulled offline but there are still plenty floating around. And when they listen, they are alarmed. In some “talks” he actually contradicts himself. It is as if his need to be entertaining and shocking takes over.
None of this would have happened if Jesus Christ had been the focus of Caner’s ‘talks’ and not his own “story”. Whatever that really is.
Hi C.B.
thanks for the prayers . . . need all I can get
What on Earth is Liberation Theology?
I’ve heard the term, but it applies to so many traditions, I’m not sure what you are talking about specifically.
As for Debbie, I like her and I very much respect her strength.
I guess you don’t much like for people to disagree with you, but honestly C.B. you’ve got to toughen up some. People disagree with me all the time. Doesn’t bother me a bit. I am happy for them to have their own thoughts and opinions, as I have mine. And I am happy to learn from them how they see things, from a different point of view.
It doesn’t threaten me ’cause I know who I am.
I don’t know if you have been hanging out too long with people that all think alike, or what, but it is OKAY to get out of your ‘comfort zone’ and dialogue with people who may not always agree with you. I can promise that most people WILL like you, C.B.
Salvation?
In my faith, we don’t ‘assume’ how we will be judged.
We also don’t fear so much either. If we do something we are sorry for and we know offends God, we seek reconciliation quickly before going to communion.
We are taught to trust in the divine mercy of God.
As for hollering ‘you sinner’ at one another and at other people of different beliefs; we don’t do it. As for telling someone that they are ‘going to hell’, we wouldn’t presume to do it. I think that must be something specific to fundamentalism, from what I can figure out.
So you and I are not on the same page when it comes to how we see Christ the Lord.
Conservatives? Liberals? Moderates? Love ‘em.
What’s not to like? They’re PEOPLE for goodness sake.
I think you are too hung up on labels.
Time to crawl out of the ‘label’ ditch and look people in the eye for who they really are. Labels are just words people use to give them an excuse to reject others.
Thing is, C.B., the labels aren’t real. They don’t stick.
Labels are just ‘props’ used for the wrong reasons. Throw ‘em out.
Have a good Sunday, C.B..
Time to rest and be peaceful. God is good.
His mercy is everlasting. Remember that.
Glad to be of service to you there Greg.
The evidence can be found by any person willing to take the time to tread through the comment threads of the blog posts of Debbie Kaufman or Wade Burleson relating to the Ergun Caner situation or the multitude of comments you have made in relation to Paige Patterson and other CR leaders and Baptist Identity guys of the past and present. As a matter of fact, did you or did you not just recently post some whining drivel over at Wade’s place about Ergun Caner?
You are guilty Greg Alford. But, you go ahead and tell yourself how righteous you are and you go and preach tomorrow and tell all those folks to love one another and to be kind and sweet. Kind, nice and sweet people like you Greg have filled the earth with dead men’s bones.
BTW, don’t call me “sir” again. I work for a living.
CB,
Sir, are you trying to tell Greg to exercise grace? It’s hard to tell with that kind of rhetoric.
CB may be a lot of things, but liar aint one of them. CB is speaking the truth in this comment thread.
David
Good night L’s.
I can see by your comment you are still lost and yet to repent and believe the biblical gospel.
Oh well, we can try again on another day….unless you die before then.
CB.
Just so that everyone will know that you are indeed a “LIAR!”
Here is my complete post on Wade’s blog and I did not say one word about Dr. Caner… not one word… but then I will post it and let everyone see the man of integrity you really are.
—
Wade,
A very good post and I agree with almost everything you have said.
I would only like to add that, in my opinion, the changes we are beginning to see in the SBC are not a result of the “Children of the Conservative Resurgence” becoming more moderate or even “Moderates”. From my perspective, if anything, the Children of the Conservative Resurgence are becoming more Biblical.
The Conservative Resurgence taught their Children that “The Holy Bible… is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author… without any mixture of error… Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy… and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world… the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried…”
The Children of the Conservative Resurgence believed what their fathers taught them… and as a result have rejected both Liberalism, with denies the clear teaching of Scripture, and Fundamentalism, which adds the opinions of man to the clear teaching of Scripture. So it is that we can expect both the Liberal and the Fundamentalist to view the Children of the Conservative Resurgence as becoming more “Moderate” (and from their point of view they are), but in truth they are becoming more “Biblical”.
Grace Always,
—
And please do find those comments on Debbie Kaufman’s blog if you can…
Another big LIE!
I hope Truett-McConnell College takes the same steps. How can Emir be let off the hook when he said some of the same things? He kept quiet for 10 years???? They lied to the church.
CB,
Since you apparently give very little thought to laying about your fellow Southern Baptist Pastor, here is a scripture you should pay heed to this Lords day… “and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Rev.21:8) KJV
I will now leave you to your own conscious, such as it is, on this matter.
Grace Always,
Greg Alford,
I see you took my sound advice and did not call me “sir” again.
Oh yeah, and I want you to know I have not been “laying” about any of my fellow Southern Baptist pastors. I am not orientated that way in the lest. I would appreciate you making a correction to your comment.
So you would ignore and defend blatent willful and continuous sin in a pastor because he is a pastor you like and support. I think this is exactly what is happening. And in order to do this, you must attack the messengers.
The question for you, CB, is this: Did Caner misrepresent himself to different audiences over a span of 9 years. That would be a yes or no answer, please.
And see if you can answer without attacking me. (wink)
CB,
Here’s your correction:
“Since you apparently give very little thought to laying [around and lying] about your fellow Southern Baptist Pastor
You are what I would call a “Lazy Liar!” Hope you feel more comfortable with that comment than the first… unlike you I would hate to misrepresent you.
Thank you Greg for the correction. I know you would not dare want to misrepresent me. And be assured I have taken the same caution not to misrepresent you. And thus far I am certain I have not. But if I do, I will follow your example and make the proper corrections.
Volfan said the following in #69. Can anyone understand this???
“One more time….the facts were given as facts when one of the facts was not truly a fact. It was not a fact, but it was given as a fact….but it was contradictory to other things given as fact. Understand?
David”
No I do not understand and evidently you do not either. I’ve have been gone for a day and could not answer Volfan’s gibberish here. Can anyone explain this statement by Vofan. “the facts were given as facts when one of the facts was not truly a fact. It was not a fact, but it was given as a fact.”
How can a fact not be a fact? That is a self-contraditory statement. If it was given as a fact and it was not a fact it was untrue and was NEVER a fact. Again Volfan the statement by Liberty that the facts were self-contradictory is itself a self contradictory statement and makes no sense.
Again when you say that you preached in Minnesota in February and say you preached in Minnesota in March there is nothing contradictory about that. You could preach in Minnesota all 12 months or the year. It is when you add the word ONLY in February or ONLY in March that you would have a contradiction. If you said you preached in your church this week and then said you preached in your church next week and you actually did that, the statements would not be contradictory.
Ron West
Uh oh, David sounds like he has fallen down the rabbit hole when he writes ““One more time….the facts were given as facts when one of the facts was not truly a fact. It was not a fact, but it was given as a fact….but it was contradictory to other things given as fact. Understand?
David”
Well, to fully understand David, we have to journey to Wonderland with Alice and hear the explanation of how this can be from Humpty Dumpty:
” “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything . . . ”
So now we ‘understand’.
” “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
Or maybe we are left somewhat puzzled, like Alice . . .
or Ron . . . or me . . . . . just a little bit puzzled
Ron, I am even more confused because I thought it was “misspeaking” over and over in front of various audiences for 9 years.
So what was earlier, “misspeakings” are now “contradictory facts”. It am starting to wonder if Liberty hired James Carville to craft this clever response.
Let’s all go to church now and sing Amazing Grace.
It is not “cheap” grace, CB. Repentance is a reality for salvation. We cannot stay in continual sin with knowledge of truth and say there was a sacrifice. Sanctification is a reality for those who are truly Born Again. For without Holiness, no one will see God.
You seem to believe in cheap grace for Caner but not for those who speak and write of his many lies over the last 9 years. At the very least, be consistent with your view of grace.
Matt,
I have said nothing of “cheap grace” here and you know it very well. The grace I speak of here is not grace relating to Ergun’s salvation. I am speaking of grace wherein, we lay down or evil hearts and extend a brother grace knowing full well his sin can just as easily be ours.
I am in no way being inconsistent. Maybe you missed my comment to you in #124.
If so read it. If you did read it, read it again. You did not catch it the first time. No true grace is cheap Matt. In this case it is going to cost you your desire to satisfy your blood lust. Are you will to lay that down and give this man grace?
If not, then continue to kick the guy. At this time you have the freedom to do that. How long that will last for you before someone is kicking you only God knows.
But, at this moment, you have the choice to give Ergun some grace or you can keep chewing on him with the rest of the pack.
” But, at this moment, you have the choice to give Ergun some grace or you can keep chewing on him with the rest of the pack.”
So, you are deciding what the choices are? Just as you have redefined grace to exclude repentance in this instance. Caner took down his one and only statement acknowledging his “misspeaking”. Caner maintains his innocence to a class of theology students recently. Caner has not put forth a truthful timeline acknowledging his lies. According to his pious leaders, his facts were contradictory. This is Christian speak? This is of the Holy Spirit?
“In this case it is going to cost you your desire to satisfy your blood lust.”
You actually believe that desiring truth from a pastor/teacher is blood lust? That is quite an interesting position for a pastor. This whole scandal has been a prudent exercise revealing the hirling nature of many SBC pastors and Liberty leaders.
I am more shocked that you all have so little concern for Caner’s soul. What does it say that a pastor/teacher/leader was a liar for so long? And now, we are to ignore that, even though he will continue to teach young people “truth”. Will these students learn that we should sin more so grace can abound? Will they learn that one can lie and only lose a title but continue to perform as a trusted teacher of the Word?
My concerns also include your lower standards for teachers/preachers. CB, the more you try to guilt us with silly rebukes for bloodlusts, the more we see the true nature of what is going on.
Matt,
Your tactics here usually work for you with a lot of people.
But no cigar today. My position on soteriology and the specifics of grace are well established in Blogtown. So make that argument all you want. I don’t care.
Also, I have never said Ergun has not sinned. He has and he has admitted that and repented of it. Just because he has not done so according to some trumped up blogger standard is meaningless.
My point is singular. Ergun Caner has been treated, by a large group of Christian bloggers and several godless devils of religious cults in a manner not even practiced by pagans.
My use of the phrase “blood lust” fits the manner by which some have treated Ergun.
I have no problem with calling a guys hand about sin. I did it this weekend with Wade on his blog. He deleted my comment. And that is fine. It is his blog. He can delete anything he pleases. So can you for that matter.
What I am calling you guys on is not that you sought accountability in a brother. You guys have made a the torture of Ergun Caner little more than a blood sport. This thing ceased to have any appearance of brothers holding another brother in Christian accountability long ago. This thing has made heroes of Islamic Christ haters and Christians who are little more than theological dwarves in their understanding of the faith. Opportunists have gained hearings from people who would otherwise not give them the time of day.
It is my opinion that for those who actually started this thing, it was never about holding a brother to biblical accountability in the first place. This thing seems to have its roots in something far more heinous than striving for purity among Christian leaders.
Matt, I really do not know why you got embroiled in all of this, but I will tell you it is time to get out of it. You have gone too far.
“It is my opinion that for those who actually started this thing, it was never about holding a brother to biblical accountability in the first place. ”
Nor were his Christian ‘friends’ holding him to account or we would not be having this discussion.
Instead of trying to come up with outside illustrations as to how Liberty’s statement can be true:
Why not take the actually statements in question from the past nine years and see if this statement explains them?
Born in Sweden or Turkey?
Came to the USA in ~1969 or ~1979?
Came to the USA through NY and learned English there or came to the USA directly to Ohio?
Watched the Dukes of Hazard before it actually aired?
Dressed in Muslims clothes in high school or did not, especially, when available high school pictures and some in the Mosque are western?
Was trained in Islamic jihad or was not?
Led to Christ by grandmother or at a revival service through a classmate?
Father had many wives or two wives?
Which of the above positions could be said to be factual? Can each position be factual and contradictory?
So then Matt,
Are you saying the failures of his friends validate your failures now?
Something is wrong with that kind of thinking Matt. Would you not agree?
Nice twist, CB. Does that sort of twist work from your pulpit? I imagine it does. You gotta try harder to make me feel guilty for asking uncomfortable questions.
I think it is a legit question. Where were his Christian “friends” during those 9 years? Or was Caner such a rising star they wanted to hitch on to his coattails? Pastors are not above wanting to hang out with their favorite celebrities.
This entire scandal brings into question Liberty leadership and those who mentored Caner. Were they cheering him on or warning him? Did they care about his soul? Or was success more important to them?
There is a purity of the Bride issue here that must be addressed or this will continue to happen. The best PR in the world does not hide this stuff from God. Gulliable, star struck people, yes.
How the scandal is handled is just as important as the scandal.
CB brought up the fact that Paige Patterson is Caner’s “Father-in-the-ministry”. And by that statement CB is admitting that Caner would not be where he is today, if not for the unwavering support and promotion of Paige Paterson. Thanks for bringing that to my attention CB!
The leadership at Liberty were not the only ones turning a blind eye to Caners embellishments, and they are not the only ones who share in his sin.
I know this is “red meat” for the BI Bulldog but it needed to be said.
Grace Always,
While there were people who had honor and class asking questions about Caner that needed to be asked, pretty obviously the anti-CR folks have jumped on this like white on rice. I mean, it’s like Christmas in July to them.
Dr. Caner sins, he “repents” once a while back and said apology has been since deleted from his page, and people are okay with that.
Pastor Mark Driscol, conducts himself form the pulpit in a way that some find offensive. He apologizes opening, before many, including going to several mentors and asking for help overcoming his problems. And the same people who are okay with Caner’s apology, still refuse to accept Driscols…
I think that says something dont you?
Matt,
No twist at all there Matt. I have just always had an ability to hit the “inside curve ball.”
The secret is to be willing to wait on its break. You get hit now and then, but even then you get on base.
I did not say your question was not a legitimate question.
I asked you, Are you saying the failures of his friends validate your failures now?
There is no twist there. It is a valid question just as worthy of an answer as was yours.
As for what happens in the pulpit of the flock of which I serve; I do my best to be prepared to preach the gospel week after week and prayerfully execute the preaching of the gospel week after week in an effort to fulfill my commission for many years. Many times I have failed, but with repentance for my failures I keep coming back and thus far, so have the flocks to which God has assigned me as shepherd.
BTW, since I personally know most of the guys of which you might be in reference to as “stars”, allow me to let you in on a little secret. None of them are actually stars. They struggle with the same things you do. They are all sinners. And those who are saved are saved by grace alone and by no “star works” at all.
You do make a very valid statement though in saying, “How the scandal is handled is just as important as the scandal.” It is therein that you, along with several others are missing the mark on this one.
BI Bulldog?
Greg, I like that.
By the way, I already knew who his mentor was. I do think for the foreseeable future mentoring in the BI world will involve more theological training and less personal embellishment (i.e. Darrell Gilyard, Steven Flockhart, Ergun Caner, etc…)
Greg Alford,
Thank you for confessing the true motivating source of your hatred for Ergun. I knew that if I waited long enough you would fall prey to your own devices.
Tell me Greg, if you don’t mind, what did Paige do that caused you to despise him and those he has mentored in so greaat a manner as you do?
Hello Wade,
While you are here, why don’t you also share with us why the Burlesons have such a dislike for all things Patterson since you are in the same confessional mood as Greg today?
I have been reading all the posts about this situation both here and in other blogs and bulletin boards. I understand the points of both sides. But I keep re-reading the passages on repentance and forgiveness. No one knows what Dr. Caner has or has not repented of. But I think we all are viewing this and commenting upon it based on not just what Dr. Caner has said or not said, but also because of whose side he is on or not on. He has become a battle ground for some about the BI group (btw, I wear the title of BI as a badge of honor) both for and against.
I read those who are calling for more punishment and think with David (the king) that when he sinned in numbering the people and God gave him a choice of his punishment, he said, “Please don’t let me fall into the hands of man.”
I read those who are saying it’s over with and I think that if this was another on the opposite view having been caught in a lie, we would not be nearly as forgiving.
And now we start dragging other preachers into the argument. Can this not end?
Wade,
I just noticed something else. Did you say something about “theological training” in your comment above?
Dislike for all things Patterson? On the contrary, shared a meal with Paige and Dorothy in their Presidential Mansion just a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoyed the company, the dialogue and the prayer time. Obviously, we don’t agree on all things theological, but contrary to what seems to be your penchant to make everything personal, I am in the habit of loving my brothers and sisters in Christ by delighting in their company–without being afraid to discuss areas of disagreements or do what I can to correct wrongs.
There is a huge difference between disliking the “mistakes” (ie. “lies” or “factual statements that are contradictory” or “sin”) of someone and enjoying the person who commits the sin. By the way, the rule of thumb in the Christian world (as commanded by Christ), is “public sins require public repentance.” There is now no question of guilt. The question will be, “How is a man, unwilling to be public in confession and contrition, restored?” We are working on that one.
Once the public lying issue is cleared up, Ergun Caner has an open invitation to speak at Emmanuel. Before the lying issue is cleared up, I would be more than happy to share a conversation, a meal, or a time of fellowship with him. You can rest assured that I will be polite, civil, and personable, just like I was with the Pattersons, but I will not hesitate to discuss the issues that need discussing.
Wade,
Your eating with the Pattersons was an example of their hospitality and grace, not yours.
You just shared your lack of grace toward the Pattersons in comment #154 above.
And in comment #159 you simply exposed your penchant for slick-tongued hypocrisy.
CB,
Glad I could help feed your appetite for “self delusion”.
What’s all this [barking] about “hatred” and “despising” of these men? Since when is calling for integrity in the ministry “hatred”? You have some serious anger issues CB… perhaps you might consider getting some professional help before you [bite] someone.
Wade,
Thanks, and we can only hope that those in the BI world of make believe have learned a valuable lesson in all of this, but you know what they say… “It’s hard to teach an Old Dog new tricks”.
CB,
Sigh.
Have a good day.
I intend to do exactly that Wade. I am actually leaving today to pick up a new “Bulldog” I bought last week. Believe it or not, that is the truth.
So, until we meet again, you have a nice day also.
Greg,
I would like to invite you to come down and help me teach my new Bulldog some “new tricks.”
We will tie some of that “red meat” you were talking about around your neck and teach her to “fetch.”
CB,
I can’t believe you are really going to pick up a new Bulldog today… that is just too funny
I would love to come help you train her… you did say she was just a puppy right?
Hope you have a great day!
Methinks that Wade likes to come on here and act spiritual. Seems like he is wanting to be the Holy Spirit since he is demanding his form of repentance for Caner. He definitely should take care of the log in his own eye before worrying about others.
You are right Greg, She is just a puppy. And as you obviously know I have to train her while she is young. Because just as you told Wade, it really is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
My God bless your day also.
Personally,
He lied to congregations. Period. He intentionally lied to congregations. You can’t argue the audio evidence in place with the words from his own mouth. Listen to the Prestonwood and FBC Jacksonvilled sermons. They’re not edited, they’re not altered, they’re exactly what he said in the months after 9/11.
He lied.
Legal documents that have been on file for decades, yearbooks from an obscure high school in Ohio, and other forms of evidence contradict the sermons that he preached during his rise to prominence in the Southern Baptist Convention.
So he apologized to a few officials at Liberty University which coincidentally control his employment. Okay. That’s like me apologizing to my boss for having an affair with my wife. Am I absolved? I mean, my boss says it’s alright and that he’s going to keep me employed.
So what should he do?
I think that he ought to work to repay those churches whose congregations that he lied to as he preached the circuit. He can either do that, or go back to those churches at his own expense and apologize in person to those congregations. He ought to man up. If I sin against my wife, I can’t make it right by apologizing to my boss. Ergun Caner needs to rectify this and remove himself from the speaking tour for awhile. If he feels the need to write another book, then 100% of the proceeds should go to repaying those churches that he deceived and those congregations which he misled.
Liberty University isn’t going to fire a professor for lying. As much media scrutiny as they get just for having Falwells on the campus, they aren’t going to give the media even more ammunition to use against the University. All a firing of a President/Dean will do is do more harm to the political workings of that campus than any good, even if the hard decision is the right decision. The University and its leadership has always had more interest in its modicum of power and how they can effectively use it and they can’t be bothered by things such as integrity and moral standards.
To the pastors who have defended this pastor who lied to congregations,
I’d take a long, hard look at myself. Have you long ago accepted that embellishing and telling small lies is appropriate if in the end, someone gets “saved”? If so, show me in the Bible where that’s modeled either by Jesus’ actions or the actions of the disciples. The ends will never justify the means, regardless of personal politics and doctrinal stances. You can’t sin while leading people to Christ, you cheapen the gospel and you mock Christ.
This needs to end now. Ergun Caner needs to do the right thing, not the politic thing and make a public confession of guilt and then immediately set about to face the consequences.
Forgiveness does not exempt from consequences. Otherwise, we do we have prisons?
And Liberty University is not the only entity that has been wronged here…
I’m having a big of trouble understanding all of this commotion. After all, he’s not even a Southern Baptist and we certainly have no business sticking our pious noses in their business at Liberty. Isn’t it time to move on to something a bit more constructive and interesting. Its not amusing listening to Baptists broadcast their spirituality and viewpoints about how everyone else should show repentance. Its not exactly our strong suit.
“bit” of trouble. Sorry about the typo.
Liberty University was listed on the itenerary at the SBC convention. Why is that if they have no relationship to SBC. Also , retirees at SWBTS lost their paid Health Insurance as reported earlier.
Justin Taylor asks Just One Question for the Trustees of Liberty University.
Matt,
I stand corrected. Sad day for sure. My only point as this was unfolding was give time for the truth to come out. It has and he made some mistakes. Hopefully Ergun and each of us can learn from the mistakes. Mahalo and God Bless!
Maybe everyone should take a look at this:
http://www.normangeisler.net/infurtherdefenseofcaner.html
Thanks!!!
I was needing an example of realistic fiction for my summer class!
I read yours, now read this one:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/06/29/just-one-question-for-the-trustees-of-liberty-university/
If we fired every pastor who ever lied from the pulpit, we’d double the unemployment numbers for the US for that month!
Bill, if that is true then isn’t that exactly what needs to happen for the sake of the Kingdom? On the bright side it would make President Obama look bad for the unemployment figures to go up. But seriously, we have been talking about revival for my entire 35 years in SBC life. Can we have revival if we continue to be the same? Will not revival come only if we repent of our selfish manipulation and let God be God in our lives and in our Churches? A lot has been said about the motivation of those who have brought up the lies that Ergun has told (and you are right when you imply that perhaps he has only told the kinds of lies that so many pastors have told, isn’t that the problem?) but what I see is a passion by a growing number to stop doing what we have been doing and get right with God. Or maybe I should say it this way, if that is not what this is about then it OUGHT to be what it is about.
Matt and David,
I read yours, now read this from Pyromaniacs
And please note Geislers take on a different mythmaker.
How I Learned the Hard Way that Pious Gullibility Is No Virtue
by Phil Johnson
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/
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