In Ergun Caner is a real ex-Muslim, I challenged the Southern Baptist Conservatives of Virginia to be wise stewards of God’s cooperative program resources and prayerfully consider if Liberty University is bringing God glory. I did this because I assumed that the SBC of Virginia was supporting Liberty University financially. I was wrong. Brandon Picket, Director of Media Services for SBC of Virginia has contacted me to correct my misunderstanding of the relationship between SBC of VA and Liberty University.
Since 2000, Liberty University has been a ministry partner of SBC of VA, approved as such by the executive board. No money is provided by the SBC of VA to Liberty University. Liberty University operates under the authority of Thomas Road Baptist Church. Picket informed me that the “SBCV is grateful for the ongoing relationship [they] have with this church” and that they “believe that God’s hand is on [Liberty University].”
Although the SBC of VA is grateful for Thomas Road Baptist Church and believes God’s hand is on Liberty University, I see no indication that they support fairy tale testimonies from their leaders. Baptist polity dictates autonomy of the local church, however SBCV maintains the right to sever ties with ministry parters that deviate from their convictions. The SBCV has been in contact with Liberty University concerning this matter and is hoping and praying that Liberty University’s inquiry into Caner’s embellishments will result in Liberty University taking appropriate action. I think we can all join them in this prayer. If however this does not happen, I pray that the SBC of VA has the courage to stand for honesty and integrity when their ministry partners do not. They have made it clear that they have options, I hope this means they intend to use them if required.
Please join me in prayer for our brother Ergun Caner, Thomas Road Baptist Church, Liberty University and the SBC of Virginia. This is a difficult time and I pray that God gives each person the strength and faith they need to persevere. I pray that honesty and integrity prevail and God is glorified. I pray that God will use these men and these ministries powerfully in the time to come to bring many to faith in our Lord, Jesus.
I believe if Ergun Caner were to humble himself, repent of his sins and tell an honest testimony to the world that Christians all over would treat him as a brother and happily open their arms to him. I can think of no better outcome and no better expression of the brotherly love we can display because He first loved us.
-Jason Smathers. * Subscribe to my blog. * Follow me on Twitter.
Dave Miller (87)
Debbie Kaufman (54)
Rick Patrick (49)
Bart Barber (30)
Chris Roberts (29)
Christiane (28)
Frank (28)
Bob Hadley (27)
Greg Harvey (26)
William Thornton (25)
Matt,
You are so full of your self it is sickening. You say; Please join me in prayer for our brother Ergun Caner, Thomas Road Baptist Church, Liberty University and the SBC of Virginia. However, according to your OP you desire for Liberty U. to fire him. You have also presented that if LU does not fire him that they are covering up something and SBCV should remove fellowship from Thomas Road. You say all of this and you are not a Southern Baptist. Thus, you desire to tell Southern Baptist how they should drive the ship that you want to ride the wake.
You are…I do not even know what it is, but it certainly ain’t the Spirit of God. This OP is full of hypocrisy in that you desire something to happen and will not await the investigation. Thus, you have already made up your mind as to what the investigation will conclude. Face it, you need to change the name of this blog site. You are not a voice out of the SBC you are a voice against anything SBC.
Tim
Tim,
Matt Svoboda is not the author of this article. That may explain some of the confusion here.
You are so full of your self it is sickening.
Pot, meet kettle.
Tim,
Jason is the author of this post, not Matt. But, apparently Matt did okay it to be posted here.
Jason has had this attitude since the beginning of all of this.
David
David,
What attitude did Jason show in this OP? If you had read the materials I sent you, you would have clearly seen that Jason has been asking questions from Dr. Caner for months. In this OP he is merely correcting an assumption he had regarding the association between Liberty University and the SBC. And… I might add, he did it with class.
What you are you mad about is that Jason had the temerity to dig up the public records to show Dr. Caner for what he is.
I believe that God provides us all with a measure of common sense. Some more than others. But… when you hear one person say two completely different things and then try to pass them off as your personal testimony, that common sense God provides, sends some of us looking for truth. Do we not want men of integrity in our leadership?
Do you really believe that Ergun Caner was a ‘hardened terrorist’? If he was, perhaps he should have spoken to the FBI before 9/11 instead of reporting his supposed former activities after 9/11. I’m quite sure those 3000 people who lost their lives would have been appreciative. I don’t believe a single person has any conviction that Ergun was EVER a terrorist, nor did he have anything to do with the heinous activities of 9/11. But the whole story Ergun told right after 9/11 sure sold a lot of books and he embellished his story until he became the darling of the Christian church. Now the public records prove that he has surely been less than truthful.
You are going to have to deal with it. Jason has the right to follow his conscience and he also has the right to obtain public records.
It seems to me that the only “attitude’ that Jason has shown is that he loves Jesus more than a liar who can’t even keep his own biography straight.
Katie,
I’m waiting on the investigation.
David
Tim,
You are so full of yourself it is sickening.
Tim,
Well, as others have said you just attacked me and I didnt even write this blog. I would appreciate an apology, but I certainly wont hold my breath or anything.
Also, while I am the Editor of this blog it is called SBC Voices because we allow for diverse opinions to be shared here. I dont agree with everything that everyone has written here.
I allow some pretty diverse contributors to be at SBC Voices because I believe the SBC needs a blog in which people who disagree can still voice their own opinions, even at the same place!
Matt,
Let me help you out, Sorry, I did not realize you did not write this post. Thus, I will go to Jason Smathers and tell him the same thing. The post is written and expressed that the author is praying for something to happen that he does not know the story. The author has taken a position on getting something from Dr. Caner and he doesn’t know if it is true or not. Yes, you have documents but you take them and add your own asessment of why they are true. Let me give you just one point. You point to the document of the time that Dr. Caner’s mother presented a point to keep his father from taking the boys to Turkey. You say that is proof that Dr. Caner came here when he was two years old. While that could be true, the question is was that when he came here to stay? Also, would a two year old remember when he came to live in one place? Would a child remember the time he/she came to a place when they were two or would he/she remember when they came to stay for good without being shuttled back and forth?
That is just one point that you and others have judged, jury, and sentenced him on and you have not even had the privilege of hearing the investigation. Peter Lumpkins does an excellent job giving some scenarios that are reasonable.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Your whole “shuttled back and forth” argument assumes facts that are not in evidence. Has anyone offered any evidence of this anywhere? If so, then please provide us with links; if not, then it is all just meaningless speculation.
Squirrel
Tim Rogers:
Can you ever post an opposing view where you do not attack another Christian?
What I personally find sickening is your support of someone who has obviously lied multiple times.
Try that in your job as Pastor and see how long you are the Pastor.
Your CR tactics do not work any more.
David,
Your tactics do not work any more.
After reading the intentional offensive and corrosive comments of Tim Rodgers and those posted on the attack blogs of SBC Today and Peter Lumpkins…
I respectfully request of the managers of this site that enough is enough… and it is high time that these men be given the same Christian curtsy they themselves have so often extended to others (myself included) and that they be banned from posting on this site.
At the very least their Blogs should be removed from the “most influential SBC blogs” list.
These men continue to present a very disturbed, aggressive, and angry attitude toward their fellow Christian brothers in the SBC who are of a different opinion then they, and I think it is time they be taken out of the spot light as “influential” men in the SBC.
Grace Always,
Greg,
Are you angry at Peter Lumpkins and the fellas at SBC Today? You sure sound like it in this comment. Maybe you are the one who needs to be banned from this place. You and Tom.
David
Greg,
While I can imagine it being nice to live in a world where every one agreed with my own opinions and to have all dissenters banned, I don’t think the purpose of Voices is that. While these Caner-related threads only seem to bring out the worst in people on both sides of the issue, there are many other topics where those who have been involved bring important perspectives that we would benefit hearing. We should be less hasty in “excommunicating” other writers.
That said, I’m really hoping this article is the end of Caner-talk for a while at least until the report from LU comes out. The piece by Micah Fries on the lostness in North America posted here yesterday is deserving of twice the energy and time spent on these threads, and judging by comment numbers near the 200′s, twice that would be a lot of discussion on issues much more pressing to the Kingdom.
and note that I’m not the author of any of these posts! I only used first person in the previous comment to soften what I was saying.
David,
Angry? So now everyone who disagrees with you is somehow “Angry”… LOL… When are you going to stop playing that card? You’ve just about worn that one out!
As I have explained to you before, the old debate tactic of painting you opponents as angry to try and discredit what they say will not work with most of the readers of this blog and it most certainly will not work with me.
I just happen to think that it is an embarrassment to the SBC to promote these men as “influential voices” within the Southern Baptist Convention.
Notice David… I did not put your name on the list… but now that I think about it… ???
Grace Always,
Greg Alford:
You said to 007:”I will leave it with you. Enjoy yourself and have a great day.”
As it was said on the show King Fu–”you are a very smart grasshopper.”
Hope you appreciate my small amount of humor.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…..woooooo weeeee that’s leg slapping humor, there, Tom.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
David, sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I think you’re off in the head, but no one can question your sense of humor! Reading this is like something off spongebob.
David,
I can only conclude, that (1) you haven’t read and digested the mountain of incontrovertible evidence against Ergun Caner, that I provided to you specifically, or (2) you are choosing not to see the truth for some reason that simply can’t be identified by anything that even resembles discernment.
Whichever it is, My opinion is that I’m absolutely sure that Ergun Caner doesn’t care about you, Liberty U or the SBC. If he had any honor at all, he would step down and put an end to this. If he had been truthful from the beginning he wouldn’t have needed to change his bio three times now would he?
Proper discernment is something that God helps us to develop. You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish, but the day will come when you will see the truth of this. I hope someone will be close to you to give you comfort when you grieve.
I wish you God’s blessings.
Katie,
If bad things really come out of the report about Dr. Caner, that he was a fake and a fraud, then yes, my heart will grieve. Not for me. Not for trying to get people to calm down and not be so condemning. But, my heart will grieve for Dr. Caner. Because, I think and believe that he’s a good brother in Christ, who really loves the Lord. I accept his apology for his exaggerations and mis speakings. I’m trying to believe the best and hope for the best about a Bro. in the Lord.
But, I’m still waiting on the investigation.
David
Truth, Katie, is a five letter word. David is from Ten-c.
You’re absolutely right. The evidence is there. We are not waiting for LU to rule about what is obvious, we hope they will rule that Caner is the fraud that he is and that he should leave if not pay pack those from whom he has stolen.
We have a taste of what they will do, however. If Towns (oh brother, now there’s a case study), can’t see it (it may just be his age), and the administration did care to see up this point, the results may be a lot like Tim G.’s proof. Which was a phony attempt in which he provided the very questionable testimony of an even less credible witness than Caner himself.
Tim is blinded by his agenda. Of which, he will say, he doesn’t have. But then, why even open his keyboard if he has no agenda? He is trying to defend the indefensible… that is a liar, because he doesn’t care? No… Tim doesn’t like his huckster heroes messed with, the Paiges, Yarnells, Vines, Keathleys, Barbers and the rest of the Barbarian hoarde of the BIM. But then, the Baptist Identity Movement, of which he is a part, of which Caner is a part, doesn’t have an agenda… right? Except, that is, to foist upon the SBC the hersesy of Molinism, the demunitive doctrines of Arminianism, its semi-Pelagianism, a broad legalism that excempts only themselves…, and abstinance from alcohol, but not sports, and other entertainments and other gluttonies that they love to be part of, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum.
Now, the attack on Calvinists by the BIMs in this issue by the BI guys was intentional. To paint the Calvinists as just troublemakers who are not concerned with the truth is their MO. It is one of their talking points. They are all Caner clones. And in this case, attacking Calvinists which has nothing whatsoever to do with Caner’s crimes, was used as one of many deflections from the real issue. The reality is, David’s and Tim’s faux concern about Caner is a ruse, an angle that they are exploiting. They could care less about Caner than the advancement of the BIM cause and that is why they, the Davids and Tims, continue to distract, and deflect. This allows them a platform.
Caner is guilty. No matter what the LU adminsitration decides, he will remain guilty. What we may not find out is if Caner all along planned this deception and beginning when. That will take his confessing. The question is, since it is obvious that LU was willing to exploit the hero worship of an emotionally addicted laity (whose political affiliations drive their concerns more for pop christianity than Scripture, so that things like 911 created a void to be filled by the likes of Caner), will they take action? For it also appears that LU’s administrators were willing to be exploited. The outcome of the inquiry will depend on what size of hit LU is expecting and how much of a hit they are willing to take.
Thomas, I wrote below (I think its below here in the comment stream) about the unfairness of many who have defended Caner. Read that, if you think I am some kind of blind defender of Caner.
But you accuse Tim and David of having an agenda (an assertion I do not disagree with). But I would wonder if you do not reveal an agenda of your own in your comment.
You have declared Caner guilty, a fraud, and have declared those who defend him to be insincere and only advancing an agenda. I wonder if you are not guilty on the other side of exactly what you accuse them of.
there is little integrity in your argument when you declare “Paiges, Yarnells, Vines, Keathleys, Barbers and the rest of the Barbarian hoarde of the BIM” as “hucksters.”
You are just as unfair in your agenda as the Caner defenders are in theirs. Pot/Kettle?
What I appreciate about Jason and Matt is that they have tried to moderate a discussion – a middle way between rabid Caner-haters and just as rabid Caner-defenders.
But, in reality, there is little difference between those on the extremes. Both are operating from an agenda rather than seeking truth. You are just as guilty of that as those you criticize.
“But I would wonder if you do not reveal an agenda of your own in your comment.”
Absolutely. Everyone does.
Caner is gulity. It is the evidence that declares it, not me. And it is known that the BIM has an agenda and that those who orchestrate it are political hacks. Forgive my opinion of them. They make no bones about what they would have the SBC to be. I just don’t want to be part of that. And in fact, I no longer am because of what they represent.
I do not want to side-line this discussion. My point is that the reason that Calvinism was attact had a purpose and the Davids, Peters, and Tims are all too obvious in exploiting Caner. Their agenda is not the defense of Caner, but the advancement of their cause. Caner is showman, the kind that distracts. They need front men. Molinism is heresey. But, it is being backdoored by these men and D.P.T. are aiding and abetting them. Sorry that you don’t like my analysis. But like I said, I do have an agenda. But unlike many, I don’t lie about it.
And thanks for painting me on the extreme. I mean to stay there. I disagree with your analysis of James White. Though the Enid clan, well, yeah. And by the way, I really don’t like yellow strippers. You have made Jason and Matt out to be that and I don’t think they are any different than White or TF. They have painted a true portrait and drive on the right hand side of the road. That is what makes the hordes angry.
What is a yellow stripper?
Dave,
I think it refers to the yellow stripes in the middle of the road. but I had to think about it too for a second!
That would be yellow striper – only one “p”. Yellow stripper would be something completely different.
Yellow strippers…
If I wanted to be caneresque I would try to cover up the typing error with some made-up definition and expect those in the middle of the road to consider it a valid area of consideration.
Sorry, when I saw that misspelling, I couldn’t help myself.
Yellow strippers??? Too Funny. I think for those of you who are lost on this particular group of words that a little research on Vernon McGee would be helpful!
You folks are Baptists…. is that correct?
Thanks… I needed a moment of levity!
I will say this once, and then I think I am done.
I think David is a well-meaning person. But I can no longer waste time trying to discuss things with him. I have repeatedly asked question after question to which he refuses to respond. It has happened on at least 2 different topics. The evasion gets old. The frustration is intensified because I have spent much time responding to every point he made when had a back and forth going, yet my points were never responded to by anything more than evasion and changing the subject.
David is either unable or unwilling to have a discussion and think through the points made. Regardless of the reason why he cannot/does not think through the argument, it is fruitless to discuss it with him. He uses the same venom as Guthrie and Lumpkins, and with equal effectiveness…if they disagree with you, they will call names and seek to label you so they can dismiss you, all while not seeing the arrogance and hypocrisy of their own accusations.
It is my suggestion that he be ignored. I admit I have fed into more than anyone else, but I am done. If someone cannot or will not give you a thought out response to your points without getting personal, defensive, or misrepresenting what you said then it is a waste of time.
Lumpkins has been like that for years. I long ago learned to ignore him when I saw him post on blogs. Him writing articles is laughable and I don’t even read them. Not sure who Guthrie is or why he thinks so highly of himself. I have not been impressed by the arguments presented by any of the three and have been even less impressed by their ability to deal with those with whom they disagree. Time to stop dealing with them. They are ideologues who refuse to interact despite the false pretenses. I suggest we all be done.
Let’s see how well I can follow my own suggestion.
Jason:
Great advice and as you said:”Let’s see how well I can follow my own suggestion.”
Maybe our silence will be an effective tool of communication.
Jason, I would like to thank you for what you wrote here. A couple of months ago, Tim Rogers told me I was the most arrogant blogger he had ever encountered. It seems that you have moved into first place and I am relegated to an also-ran. Thank you for replacing me as the most arrogant blogger in the Baptist world.
Jason,
Comment #24. Are you thee Jason who is the author of the OP?
Tim
Tim,
Jason Smathers is the author and I dont believe he has interacted on his post yet.
When he comments his name will say “Jason Smathers” and not just Jason. I hope that helps. I know it can be confusing.
I am the author of this post, but have not participated in the comment thread until now. This comment thread is far more hostile that I would like.
I do not understand why people think it is impossible to both love Dr. Caner and call him to repentance. I am praying for him but I also desire to see him humble himself and repent publicly. I believe it would be for the good of the Kingdom.
Jason,
Yes, far more hostile than either of us would like it to be. Ive even deleted several comments.
I am glad that you, Dave Miller, and I can stand together in loving and praying for Dr. Caner and still call him to repentance. I hope and pray the best for Ergun.
The open hostility on the issue seems to have moved beyond the typical passive aggressive-type comments to outright insults and mockery. My deep prayer is that whatever comes out of LU at the end of June will be clear and consistent, and that people will drop it after that point.
I don’t think most people even bothered reading the post, either. It was mostly Jason (Smathers) dealing with a correction and updates regarding one state convention’s relationship with Liberty as it relates to this issue. Sadly, it appears from the comments that few are taking the time to read what people write and just jump in the comment thread to support one side or the other.
Then, again, with all the traffic this topic is generating for the blogs, maybe I should start including it in my writings just to drive up comments!
Jason,
Just want to make certain that I understand. The following is not a public enough statement? What else would you like for him to say? Do you want him to say, ‘I am a liar and everyone is correct, I intentionally misled everyone so I could make money off of the tragedy of the World Trade Center?’ His statement that he has already issued plus his time at Campus Church where he stood before 6000 students should count as public enough accepting responsibility for his mis-statements and it certainly is a statement of contrition.
There are a couple of problems with that:
1) For an unexplained reason, the apology was promptly deleted from his website. This gives the appearance of retracting the apology.
2) There is a great difference between unintentional misstatements and intentionally fabricating a story. He said he never misled anyone, so this apology was actually another lie because fabricating a testimony is intentionally misleading.
Jason,
1.) The statement was removed from his website when Liberty made a statement. Does it not make sense that Liberty told him to remove that statement because they were now making statements for him? Does it not make sense that Liberty U may have told him to not make any more statements and to remove any public statements he has made? I am not saying anything like this happened, but it is feasible.
2.)
Once again you have sentenced him without an investigation.
Jason, one other thing. How do you know the “evidence” you have is not doctored in any way? Are those videos that everyone is depending on the masters or are they copies? If they are copies, then how do you know they have not be edited?
Just sayin,
Tim
Tim,
The sources are far too many for this to be some conspiracy where videos have been doctored. False statements were made on Liberty’s website, on Ergun’s website, just recently on Focus on The Family, and in many sermons. Here is a list of primary sources and many more could be added to this: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/03/caner-materials.html
There was no shuttling back and forth after 1975, if ever. If you read the court records, you will see that Ergun’s parents did not even control the children’s passports after 1975. They were prohibited from leaving Franklin County Ohio at first, later Ohio, and always confined to the lower 48 states while they were minors.
If you doubt the evidence, you have not looked at much of it. I suggest you listen to Dr. Caner’s talk “From Jihad to Jesus” to understand the extent of the lies Dr. Caner has told from behind the pulpit.
Blessings,
Jason
I just don’t get the impression Tim cares about the truth.
He seems more concerned with covering someone’s rear end. The amount of “spin” I see coming from he and his cohorts is mind-boggling. The fact that he even mentions that the video/audio footage is doctored is so absurd that it is funny. I imagine next we’ll hear that the dangerous “muslim-Calvinist Consortium” has also re-edited the Caners’ book so that the evidence is worse.
Come on.
It is amazing what sins we will justify. I guess as long as we like someone, or can make it a political issue, then truth and a concern for it, goes out the window. It honestly would take a blind ideologue to try and pretend like the evidence isn’t overwhelming (or to even suggest it is fake…wow)…so…
More seriously, I have become disgusted with the entire Caner debate. There have certainly been some, on the James White side, or out of Enid, who have gone overboard in attacking Caner.
But men like Matt Svoboda and Jason Smathers have tried to navigate a middle position – calling Caner to give account for some clear issues in his testimony while also holding out the olive branch of reconciliation. Jason has been, in all of this, the most accurate (and in my estimation – humble) in his research and writings.
For their troubles, Matt and Jason have been vilified by the “Caner Is a Saint” committee. They have sanctimoniously acted as if they and Caner were the victims of a vicious attack (playing the victim is a favorite tactic of this group) while engaging in some of the most vicious and intensive attacks I have seen.
Peter Lumpkins ferociously attacks anyone who dares to question Caner. His latest screed against Matt is shameful. Tim Guthrie has painted this as a good vs evil thing – with evil being defined as anyone who questions Caner’s integrity. Tim Rogers – well, he’s Tim Rogers.
Full Disclosure: I am a big fan of Liberty University. I have a son who has attended there and I have two more I hope will someday graduate there. I think it is a fantastic school and I think that some of this has been motivated by a disgust for Liberty’s doctrinal stances and Falwell’s general persona. I question the motives of some of the out and out attackers of Caner and Liberty.
On the other hand, I cannot see anything other than the conclusion that Caner told lies – often and openly. How can we say that’s okay? I think he should honorably step down because of his lack of integrity in his testimony.
I have stayed out of this argument almost entirely and will probably wish after this that I had continued to do so. But the attacks on Jason and Matt are unfair, and well, in my mind – ungodly. They have tried to chart a reasonable middle course and have been vilified for it.
So, count my name among those who love Liberty but question the integrity and honestly of Ergun Caner.
David,
I appreciate the voice of reason!
Also, I can certainly be counted as one who loves Liberty University. I am a student there and graduate in just a few months! It has been very good to me and it would of taken me a lot longer to get my degree if it werent for their great distance learning program.
I love Liberty and I love Ergun Caner as a brother in Christ. I rejoice that we are united through the blood of Jesus and that God sees fit to use him to advance his Kingdom. But the fact is nobody is “above accountability.” Ergun, myself, and everyone else need to be held accountable for our words and actions.
We are Christians and we are to be holy as God is holy.
Dave,
So this is what you call trying to honestly deal with a subject?
I just meant that in this situation you acted as I have come to expect for you to act from past experiences.
You struck out to attack the character and integrity of the person you disagreed with instead of engaging in rational discussion.
“You are so full of your self it is sickening.” (Addressed to Matt, though he was not the author).
You threw a whole bunch of angry invective in Matt’s direction (again, being mistaken that he authored this article).
This is what I have come to expect from you.
Tim, I looked but could not find your apology for the insults you directed against Matt under the assumption that he was the author of the article.
Now, knowing that Jason Smathers authored it, would you reconsider your words at all?
Dave,
It appears that you are not looking hard enough.
Tim
Unfortunately, Tim, these comments have time stamps. I asked this question at 5:43 PM and you added your comment at 9:30 PM.
You then commented as if the problem was that I didn’t look hard enough. Perhaps, the problem is that your clarification did not come until nearly 4 hours after this comment.
Oops. Those time stamps will get you every time, won’t they, Tim?
It is obvious that David Worley and Tim Rogers have appointed themselves as Ergun Caner’s unofficial surrogates. It is quite appropriate that they do so. They sound a lot like him when you think about it. These are the worst aspects of this kind of fundamentalism. Questions are never engadged, only obfucations, labeling, hyperbole (Caner’s favorite) and outright meaness.
The partnership between the SBCV and LU is much more intricate than the PR man for the SBCV may have explained. The relationship is interwoven between some SBC pastors who serve as trustees for LU and even LU representatives who serve on some SBCV entity boards. It is very doubtful, no matter the outcome, that there will be a severing of ties.
Again, what is at issue here was posted on the SBC Today blog after Caner’s apology:
“I have never intentionally misled anyone. I am sure I have made many mistakes in the pulpit in the past 20-plus years, and I am sure I will make some in the future. For those times where I misspoken, said it wrong, scrambled words, or was just outright confusing, I apologize and will strive to do better.”
Is this what some are refering to as his repentance? That question is the one that must be addressed. Not by anyone posting here, but by those who have been appointed to investigate.
They will have to ask themselves if this kind of statement is sufficient in lieu of what has been documented. It is very appropriate to pray for all involved in this situation.
The sleeping dog is awake.
“I have never intentionally misled anyone.”
The kind of documentation available is unequivocable. The question doesn’t just abide with Ergun, but Emir and those who should have known or investigated themselves to establish the verity of the Caners’ claims. The fact that they didn’t calls into question the honestly of those very people who convene the committee. But, the question is more comprehensive. How deep is the problem in the SBC, or evangelicalism in general, that is willing to turn a blind eye to exalt heroes irrespective of reality? What motivates it? Is it a result of the fear that the Gospel will not work? What does that say for the GCR? If they need heroes to make it work, the Gospel has truly been lost.
Everyone,
Due to the fact that David Worley, Volfan 007, acted like I did when I was 8 I have banned him, at least for now, from SBC Voices.
I could not believe the comment thread in which all he was doing was copying and pasting other peoples comments to repeat them, maybe at a bad attempt to be funny.
David,
If you want to email me to discuss then you are more than welcome to… Down the road I will let you interact at SBC Voices if you choose too..
I think after the passing away of Jerry Falwell Sr., those left who never have the burden of thinking in behalf of Liberty and/or Thomas Road do not have ANY clue what to do. They are sorely lacking in biblical conviction and moral courage.
In case of NFL, NBA, Goverment officials–they would be asked to leave their posts [leave of absence] pending the outcome of the investigation. Because the situation makes the office of the seminary presidency looks like a BIG joke. Clearly, the leadership in Lynchburg lacks theological and moral visions. They are too weak and confused (including the seminary professors fearing for their jobs).
John,
If Jerry Sr. were still alive this would not even have gotten this far. This investigation would have been done back in February and a public statement would have been issued and we would see Dr. Caner still in his position. As it is, we have an investigation and come the end of June Dr. Caner will still be in his position.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
He may very well be in his position at the end of June. I don’t think that is the issue, and you and David and others seem to miss this point. No one wants Caner fired…all they want to see is someone who has repeatedly contradicted, misrepresented himself, and misled others to be held accountable and to come clean an apologize.
Your inability to listen to the actual statements of others and engage their arguments has led you to the point of attacking strawmen and burning them down with vicious and personal attacks.
The contradictions are well-documented. I think any finding by Liberty other than one that admits he lied repeatedly will seem disingenuous to all who aren’t worshipping at the altar of Caner. Honestly, to think he did nothing wrong at this point is simply to turn away from objectivity and reality.
I have said before and I hole now…if Caner would have admitted he lied and simply “came clean” and apologized, this would have been over and done…and I would be A LOT happier. This whole ordeal is making us as believers look like hypocrites. It makes us look like charlatans in our attempts to evangelize. It is simply bad. But what compounds it is people who pretend like it isn’t an issue. People who either act like lying isn’t a big deal (“ministerially speaking”) or people who because of their like for Caner (or hatred of calvinism…still not sure why that matters) decided to forget evidence and just declare innocence and bury their heads in the sand. That, to me, is sad.
I will be glad when this is over.
Jason,
You are doing exactly what we have been saying all along. You are sentencing him for lying. Puhleeese!
Let me ask you, What if the investigation proves he has not told any lies?
Tim
“Let me ask you, What if the investigation proves he has not told any lies?”
Then it will be the worst investigation since Al Capone’s Vaults. How can the investigation prove he hasn’t told any lies when we’ve seen him lie on video and print and he has supposedly apologized for lying already? My gosh, are we a bunch of ostriches?
To John post # 38 I think you could, could be right and I also think money is going to be a factor at LU as it is elsewhere.
I’ve always tried to avoid the politics of the SBC because it seems that there is always a new fire brewing before an older one is completely stamped out. I’ve tried to be content offering my services as a teacher and in the music ministry.
Perhaps its the advent of the internet and instant communication, but things seem more volatile than ever before.
Whatever is stoking these fires, I think that in some ways we are all just a bit complicit. We flock to hear our favorite speakers, shell out money for books, CD’s, DVD’s, concerts, etc. Of course there is nothing wrong with doing any of those things, but I do wonder if we have let ourselves be the pawns of slick advertising and PR firms. Today, I have this vivid picture of Jesus overturning tables and rebuking the moneychangers. I’m seriously guilty of spending money on Christian music. I have CD’s lined up by the hundreds. Some might call my love for Amazing Grace in 50 versions a full-blown addiction.
Everytime we face one of these scandals among our own, it is always because we find, that the carefully crafted images laid before us had no foundation in truth.
Perhaps Dr. Caner’s testimony might not have been as fascinating without all of the hellish images of 9/11 that I think he clearly capitalized upon to make his story much more dramatic. I don’t think it would be an exaggeration to say we were all shell-shocked. Now it’s hard for me to believe any of his conversion story.
I will say this: I’m going to be especially careful about where I place my focus where spiritual things are concerned. There is NO story more captivating than that of Jesus and the journey to the Cross where our ONLY hope lies.
I will continue to pray for Dr. Caner, his family and all those who are now in the spotlight of an increasingly secular and even hostile nation. We dare not show ourselves to be frauds. But we can show how Christians forgive and how Jesus restores. I’d love to hear the less sensational story of Ergun Caner’s conversion.
Blessings to all.
Tim Rogers:
Dave Miller said:”Tim Rogers – well, he’s Tim Rogers. ”
What is wrong with the above statement?
Matt,
So you are going to ban David Volfan and allow Jason and others to keep stoking the flames?
Tim
Tim,
No one is stoking the flames. Jason and others are dealing with the issue… Volfan wasnt. He was repeating what everyone said in a childish way.
I told him he would be allowed to come back soon, but it was time to shut him down on this thread.
Matt, did you not see the humor in what Volfan was doing? I disagreed with his conclusions, but was rolling on the floor after the third repeat.
1. Ergun Caner is anti-calvinist. I am a calvinist
I would never consider Liberty baptist seminary due to that fact.
2. Liberty has always been involved in Politics. See Glenn Beck!
I think the those who oppose Ergun Caner from Enid tend to be leftist politically……see Thy Peace, Tom Parker, Mark Potok, Rob Boston,Barry Lynn.
3. The use of Mohammed Khans videos is a much more offensive to me then Anything Caner has said. It goes to the heart of Covenantalism as defined in the Bible.
4. Ergun has repented …..how many times does he need to repent.
now people want to throw stones.really who are the legalist now?
5. James White I have supported but I think he tipped his hand when he blabbered on and on about the Manhatten Declaration.
To quote Douglas Wilson Dualism is Bad JuJu and this is the result of political dualism by James White.
Lastly people who ban people all time usually have weak ideas. Whether Volfan here or myself on Debbies blog or Matt Svoboda on Peter Lumpkins blog.
Pugilistic bloggery is good for the heart, soul, and mind
Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert, I am interested in your disdain for the videos. Clearly, they have a hostile point of view. But, facts are facts. I watched his videos and I did not swallow everything he said – his perspective was obviously slanted.
But he played videos of Caner where he clearly says two different things, both of which cannot be true.
Facts are facts, even when they are spoken by a non-Christian. I don’t accept his perspective or his interpretation, but his facts are facts – unless someone says he doctored the video.
Robert, kinda like you blabbered on here?
1. Your conclusion does not seem to follow.
2. Even if substantiated, I’m not sure what this has do to with anything.
3. It might be offensive to you, but this does not make it wrong. Shouldn’t we be more concerned with those inside the church? Have a good reputation? Also, the leaders at Liberty seem not to take your view here since their reason for investigating was not due to concerned Christians, but secular media.
4. Where has he repented? What has he repented of exactly?
5. Several prominent Christians came out against the Manhattan Declaration. What does this have to do with the issue at hand? Is the Federal Vision Good Juju?
Nice assertion about weak ideas. An assertion is all it is and is by no means applicable to Matt who has been more than willing to engage. Volfan was banned because he was being silly with his copy and paste mimicking responses. My daughter doesn’t even do that anymore.
Robert I Masters,
You might be right about weak ideas, but that doesnt work in this case. On all of my posts I have allowed Volfan to post and strongly disagree with me. I banned him on this post because of his childish responses. It had nothing to do with ideas. He was posting responses that were not dealing with the issue.
Usually, he does deal with what we are talking about and I allow him to post his thoughts, opinions, etc. But, when you act like he did today then its time to shut it down.
Also, I told him I would allow him back soon… I just didnt want anymore of it on this thread.
Tim Rogers:
You said:”Matt,
So you are going to ban David Volfan and allow Jason and others to keep stoking the flames?
Tim”
Uh, Tim, I believe that would be Matt’s choice just like it is yours at SBC Today and I do not see anyone stoking the flames.
David Miller,
How is life on Lakeport Rd(Sioux City)?
I was trying to communicate the fact that the videos were presented by a man of from a very Anti-Christian religion. So why are we surprised he has a bone to pick with a Christian.
Now the Enid crowd keeps quoting the Anti-Christian sources to fan the flames more…..tells me more about their allegiances then Ergun Caner.
As I understand it Ergun repented for the lies he said….why is that not the end for all Christians.
Makes us Calvinist look mean and heartless in my opinion…..heartless. forgive him 70 X 7 if we have too.
Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva
I keep hearing that he has repented,, but the only comments I have seen are that he said he made some “misstatements” but that he never intentionally deceived anyone.
There may be something out there I am not aware of.
And FYI, I’m on OLD Lakeport Road – big difference!
David Miller,
Sorry I Misspoke about your location…please dont hang me!!!!!!
I think maybe what happened was that apology left the web when the misstatements were being electronically corrected. Thus not available due to the hearts of the stone throwers actions.
I just try to give him Grace……isnt that a Biblical thing to do.
After all they are called the Doctrines of Grace.
Mark,
My argument about the video is really the same one that Matt made
to Debbie….that we should have kept the discussion in-house.
I have talked to many missionaries and pastors from all kinds of Christian theological persuasions …..they all find that action sub-Biblical. One well known author said it was a naive understanding about the goals of Islam.
The issue with the manhatten declaration is that Jerry Falwel founded the moral majority and that Ergun Caner has been getting flack from those opposed to the political leadership of liberty university. The pietist among the evangelicals dont like the muscular nature of the values voters and the religous leftist are trying there darnest to bring down that leadership.
For me is all about the politics.Never commanded to be the Christian
thought police. Let the Saudis do that in Wahabi land.
Robert I Masters
To me, Robert, there are two separate issues.
1) Should we extend grace to a brother or sister who sins and is repentant? Of course. I agree with you that many on the anti-Ergun side have lacked grace. They have almost been licking their chops in glee that a noted anti-Calvinist has stepped into trouble.
2) Should a leader (pastor, Seminary pres, etc) who has been caught in a serious sin continue in that position of influence? Generally, I would say not. If Ergun Caner lied about his testimony, he should be removed from his position as the president of Liberty Seminary.
I hope that if the Liberty study group determines that Caner lied about his past, they will uphold the honor of the institution while dealing graciously with Caner.
We are forgiven of our sins but not free from the consequences of that sin.
That’s what I was saying, Scott – though I managed to take three paragraphs to do so!
Robert,
I did not sign the Manhattan Declaration either. I can assure you that my lack of signing had absolutely nothing to do with Falwell, Caner, etc. I can also tell you that James White’s reasons for not signing had nothing to do with Falwell, Caner, etc. either. I’ve never seen him talk about Falwell/Caner in relation to the MD.
OK, just wanted to clarify. Thanks for being cordial.
Somethings to point out here:
1. Non-Christians read all these blogs AND their comments. They also pick up on the fact that comments are coming from PASTORS and Seminary students.
2. If Ergun Caner has repented, then why is an inquiry even being formed? Why is this story still picking up steam?
3. To label the “Enid Crowd” as a bunch of leftists is too laughable and too absurd to really be taken seriously.
4. I don’t give a hoot who did what to who on whatever blogsite in the past. We are being watched. If you can’t debate with civility, then don’t debate at all. If you’re a pastor and can’t act with civility, then you got bigger problems to deal with than just a comments section.
5. Removing perceived sin while using sinful actions is kind of ironic if you ask me. That’s my whole perception of actions taken during the CR.
6. Evidence is evidence, regardless of the religious preference of the person presenting it. It’s sad that it took a muslim and some laity to shed light on some startling descrepancies that range from audio to print to video of one man’s testimony.
7. Calvinism isn’t on trial here. Seriously, this was about Calvinism?
8. Integrity. Look it up.
9. A pastor is allowed a certain amount of leeway when delivering sermons. However, I find it very hard to ‘misstate’ my childhood, like where I’m from, what I did, and where I lived. With that said, I have a hard time remembering childhood friends’ names, teachers’ names, or just what all I did while I was a child.
10. Again, we’re being watched on these sites and judged by how we treat each other. If you can’t act civil to each other, then ‘cut off your hand’ and go somewhere else.
The only reason the “Enid crowd” are interested in “bringing that boy to justice, by gawd” is because he is the enemy. Period. Their loud protestations that the gospel is being sullied and biblical truth is being slandered are completely laughable when one reads how Cough-man and Don Quixote practically GUSHED over how wonderful The Shack was and DQ had the author in his pulpit to “preach the gospel” even thogh Wm Paul completely denies the substitutionary atonement of Christ, mocks the word of God as insufficient, and claims that Jesus is the “best” way to heaven rather than the only way. Where was their righteous indignation then?
Caner is the enemy and they want to get him because:
a-he’s a complimentarian (that is a big one)
b-he’s associated with Patterson, SWBTS, and those that supported the Conservative Resurrgence
c-he’s anti-Calvinist
The fact that they give Wm Paul not only a pass but a virtual medal for his heretical statements but get their dander up about Caner is enough to lead anyone to question their sincerity or lack thereof. Further, they contacted the young muslim man for information and never once shared the gospel with him. Can you fathom that? He is lost, dying, and going to hell and they’re so out to get Caner that they won’t even share the gospel with that muslim but will gladly contact him for information.
Now, having said all that, I hope the legitimate questions that have been asked will be answered. I hope that he hasn’t lied and there is some reasonable explanation for the apparent discrepancies. I hope if he has lied that he will repent.
Joe,
Add one thing to your list:
d.) He’s dispensational.
Tim
Tim,
I’m a Dispensationalist.
Squirrel
Totally forgot about that. Good point.
David Miller,
Just for the sake of argument lets say the accusations are true against Ergun Caner. The political loss would override the lies that he has made in my mind.
It would be different if he lied about not having an affair with a women that was not his wife or he had a sexual relationship with homosexual man but this untruth does not raise that level of seriousness in my mind.
In summary all sin is offensive to God but the consequences for sins are different for all sins. Stockholm or Ankara who cares!
Robert I Masters
That is probably where our disagreement lies. Obviously, since we are all sinners we cannot expect sinless perfection from leaders. But there are certain sins which undermine the credibility necessary to lead. Sexual sin would be one. Financial misdealings would be another.
I guess that we disagree whether intentional deception (assuming, as you said, that the charges are true) rise to that level.
To me, if a leader has a pattern of deception, that is a disqualifying offense.
I totazlly agree that if he has lied that would pretty well disqualify him.
What is this world coming to? I go away for a while and come back to find that David Miller and Joe Blackman “totazlly agree”… unbelievable!
Grace Always,
I totazlly disagree with you, Greg.
Actually, there are a fair amount of things that he and I would agree on. He’s just nice and I’m, well, I’m not.
Robert Masters:
You said–”but this untruth does not raise that level of seriousness in my mind.”
If this man has lied for 9 years and you do not find this serious, I sir can not take you serious.
Scott:
I am of the opinion that this discussion is civil.Do you see it as otherwise?
Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Tom Parker,
Honestly —-in my if these charges are true scenario….I would not have included 9 years of lies. frankly I dont know the facts and neither do you!
Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva
Robert Masters:
I do not think you are open to the facts.
Joe B:
There is just no way for you to know other people’s intentions.
Their intentions are proven by their actions and non-actions.
Scott,
I think you have your facts wrong on the Enid crowd.
I have been on those sites for yours and many of Wades supporters
are both politically left and theological…..men like Bruce Prescott, Mark Potok,he is Americas # one commie, Thy Peace, check out just the sources he uses on Debbie Kaufman blog
People for the American Way
Americans United
religion dispatches
washington post
Read Wades post on women in ministry—-he is no theological right winger. I call him a SBINO Southern Baptist in name only.
So Scott you are the only one laughing!!!!!!
Robert I Masters
From the Southern Baptist Geneva
For my part, Robert, though we have disagreed, this discussion has been cordial and right-spirited.
I have supporters?
I work for the Department of Transportation and Development for the State of Louisiana.
I do not own, sponsor, or host any websites.
As for them citing specific sources, well they also cite very many conservative leaning websites in their postings which means either they are very well read or you’re very near-sighted.
As for Pastor Burleson’s stance on women in ministry, right now I side with him but I am currently researching both sides because my initial stance was borne out of what I now realize was a very uneducated position. I am seeking to educate myself on both sides and make an educated, informed decision as to my stance on women in the ministry.
I have done quite a bit of research on Wade Burleson and I actually plan on opening a correspondence with Pastor Burleson after I finish reading his book, which unfortunately will have to wait since several pastors were nice enough to provide a wealth of information concerning not just women in ministry, but also alcohol consumption since right now I’m also a moderationist. Yet another position borne out insufficient information and so I’m seeking to educate myself on both sides of this issue.
Right now, my position on Pastor Burleson is that he has taken an unpopular stance on issues which some place more importance on than others. I’ve listened to about fifteen sermons so far and he hasn’t yet preached anything that I’ve found anti-Christian though I have disagreed on some very minor points that he’s made, but nothing but just personal interpretation.
I have been following the Ergun Caner escapade on several blog sites. Currently, I’ve read Burleson’s blog, Debbie Kaufman’s blog, Jason Smathers’ blog, Mohammad Khan’s website, SBC Today, Peter Lumpkins’ blog, the SBC Today blog, Liberty University’s website, FBC Jax Watchdog’s blog, Wartburg Watch, PraiseGod Barebones, Associated Baptist Press, Baptist Press, and some other websites which take either side of this argument. The point is, I’m checking both sides and looking at both sides’ respective evidence. I am trying to restrain from taking sides if it pleases everyone who is reading.
My points in my initial post still stand as far as I’m concerned.
Robert,
I really don’t think Caner’s politics have anything to do with this. It is his integrity that is questionable.
Also, I’m very conservative politically and I read the Washington Post and keep an eye on leftist blogs and organizations. I’ve certainly seen them latch on to the Caner story with glee. The fact that they will use this to paint all Christians as dishonest is the biggest reason why Caner should have stepped down as soon as the evidence of his dishonesty came to light.
The fact that he hasn’t, and that Liberty didn’t take action months ago, just shows that there is more then a love for Truth and the Gospel driving their decisions.
Squirrel
Robert Masters:
I will give you credit where credit is due–you slander people with your key strokes in an excellent manner.
Robert Masters:
So you really think Wade and others are only Baptist in name only?
Without a doubt. They don’t represent historic Christian beliefs, much less Southern Baptist. They’re closer to Unitarians…or Methodists.
Joe,
I believe when someone makes such a serious comment as the one you have just made that there needs to be some evidence provided to support such a claim… You know the old saying “Extraordinary claims demand Extraordinary evidence.”
So on what do you base your comment that the teaching of, former IMB board of directors member, Wade Burleson and Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid Oklahoma do not “represent historic Christian beliefs, much less Southern Baptist. They’re closer to Unitarians…or Methodists.”?
Please take as much time and space as you would like to defend/explain/justify this statement.
Grace Always,
Greg,
He invited a person to preach the gospel who denies basic tenets of the gospel in a recorded sermon and a radio interview I heard as well as his book, The Shack. The Bible tells us that pastors are supposed to guard the flock from false teaching.
I could list more, however, the train leaves at 6:04 sharp and if I don’t get ready Im going to be late.
Dave Miller:
So you see Robert Masters as right-spirited when he says :
“Scott,
I think you have your facts wrong on the Enid crowd.
I have been on those sites for yours and many of Wades supporters
are both politically left and theological…..men like Bruce Prescott, Mark Potok,he is Americas # one commie, Thy Peace, check out just the sources he uses on Debbie Kaufman blog
People for the American Way
Americans United
religion dispatches
washington post
Read Wades post on women in ministry—-he is no theological right winger. I call him a SBINO Southern Baptist in name only.
So Scott you are the only one laughing!!!!!!”
Dave he is calling all of these people Liberals.
I do not find that right-spirited.
He’s calling them liberals because they ARE left wing nut jobs.
Tom,
Southern Baptist in name only…..the final point was his speech at the mainstream or whatever convention where he talked about women in ministry.
He is really a CBF guy now and would much more at peace there.
BTW-As others have pointed out Wade has lied about his site being political and that he was not going to post again on Ergun Caner. Where are the cries to fire him…….we are waiting Immanuel Baptist Elders.
Actually I will tried to lead by example and offer him the grace that his crowd will not offer to Ergun by saying that he is allowed to change his mind and did not intentionally lie to the world.
Grace to You …Wade
Hey Robert, someone is going to roll your yard with toilet paper tonight. The cheap kind.
Now if it doesn’t happen, the reason it didn’t happen is because I announced their secret plot here and they changed their mind. If it does happen, that proves I was right, too. Either way, I’m a hero, just like Don Quixote. Haa haa
What ever happened to a person being innocent before being proven guilty? I believe if Dr. Caner came to the bloggers involved and personally repented to them for an hour or so, that wouldn’t be good enough. Anyone who says that the bloggers do NOT want to see Dr. Caner fired or step down isn’t reading very closely. I personally see a pattern here just from observation. First, it was Dr. Patterson, then the IMB BOT, then Dr. Patterson again, then Dr. Ergun Caner, then Dr. Emir Caner. Who’s next? Albert Mohler? Danny Akin? Chuck Kelley? I mean seriously, can we all do ministry without having to try to take someone down every few months?
Michael,
While we all have a right to out opinion, your comment is simply untrue.
All I, Jason Smathers, and some others(though I certainly am not speaking for all) all we are wanting is for Ergun to come clean, repent, so that we can all move forward. It is a shame when people get blasted for trying to hold our leaders accountable for their words and actions.
Are you saying White went after Patterson? I missed that one.
I have a hard time seeing the mindset that lays this at the feet of anyone other than Caner himself.
Yes, the bloggers are asking questions….but if he didn’t lie, there would be no questions, or the things raised would be easilt refuted.
Since no refutation has happened, the accused party (and his minions) have attacked the accusers. Pretty typical of guilty parties. Pretty typical of politicians. Pretty typical of those that have no argument and have no desire for truth or repentance in a situation.
Michael, the fact that you resort to this line of argument is sad. These aren’t invented attacks for the purpose of tearing someone down…it is pointing out numerous lies that a person has told. Do you really not see the difference?
Honestly, this sounds like whena little kid gets caught in a lie and he tries to blame everyone else and justify his sin. The problem is: when we deal with people in our churches who seek to ignore sin, refuse to repent, and then blame shift to others to justify their actions or pretend they did nothing wrong….what do we conclude about them??
The number of believers seeking to ignore sin and pretend like this isn’t an issue or as sad OR WORSE than those who really are out for blood.
BTW, who is the court that will decide his “innocence” or “guilt”?
Liberty University?
Sorry, but that is like asking USC to investigate themselves with regard to the Reggie Bush recruiting violations.
I am not and will not condemn Caner…but from looking objectively at the data (I really have no dog in the fight and would prefer that this whole thing not have happened at all) it doesn’t look favorable for him.
I mean, there are video recordings of sermons that contradict each other and contradict his own book….is he going to claim the bloggers made up the audio and video recordings and re-wrote his books?? Come on, Michael…you can’t really believe what you wrote.
Here are some of the links that present the facts. You’ll find screen shots of three different biographies, the most unapologetic apology I’ve ever seen (and it was only for mispeaking about Shabir Ally, and nothing about the documented lies he has told about his upbringing). I can provide more and will be happy to produce to anyone what I have already documented just by doing a little research. Honestly, the biggest thanks should go to Jason for digging up the public records, that document without a single doubt that Ergun Caner has lied and has continued to lie.
http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/05/caner-file.html Gene Clyatt, I think you will find what you were looking for here. It has Dr. Caner’s non-apology/apology. It has screen shots of his bios, etc.
http://blog.witnessesuntome.com/search/label/ergun%20caner
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/04/ergun-caner-now-hes-described-as.html Here he describes himself as a hardened terrorist!
http://www.witnessesuntome.com/caner/Monica_Caner_affidavit.PDF Monica Caner’s affadavit, dated 1975, to the court stating she has lived in the U S for SIX years.
http://blog.witnessesuntome.com/2010/03/ergun-caners-secret-biography.html More legal documents concerning the time frame when Ergun Caner was living in the U.S. It also includes the divorce decree and addresses the religious upbringing of the children.
http://www.levitt.tv/media/links/ZLV-1605.ram Numerous links in Dr. Caner’s own words…. Not from some Muslim hate site.
There is more…. Much more, but this should suffice!
Joe B:
You said:”He’s calling them liberals because they ARE left wing nut jobs.”
You know Joe when you call people names it just shows how little you really have to say.
Please quit the name calling, it makes you look bad Joe.
Christians don’t vote for baby murderers. Christians don’t vote for someone who wants to silence Christians with “hate speech” laws. Christians don’t support that idea that all religions are equal and they all get you to heaven.
“Left wing nut jobs” just takes up less space.
Basically, the Don Quixote’s, Bruce Prescotts, and the clowns over at baptistlife forums fall in that catagory–mainstream christians. in other words, people that don’t matter..
Well, Christians have been implicitly silent on abortion yet we keep electing them too.
Then again, Republicans take evangelical Christians for granted anyway…
I grow tired of every Republican primary turns into ‘I’m a bigger Christian…’ debate, yet they don’t actively try to change abortion in any shape, form, or fashion.
Christians may not vote for baby murderers, but we sure as heck will vote for tacit complicity for baby murderers.
And yes, considering that you have no idea how these people voted, it’s just easier to throw up vast brush strokes of ignorance and just hope you catch someone with it.
And no, I haven’t voted Democrat since I was a high school senior in 1996. Does that one vote make me a left wing nut job?
I have no idea how these people voted? Dude have you ever READ Bruce Prescott’s drivel that he calls a blog? Cough-man has said she didn’t vote for Obama but she goes on like a giddy school girl with a crush defending his health care plan, supporting his hate speech laws (and did so on this blog), and blathering about how evil the United States is to not create a revolving door at the south border to let anyone that wants into this country in. So while I have no idea how she voted, yes, she’s still a left wing nut job.
I thought Jonathan Falwell tweeted it pretty well:
Just a thought going thru my head right now…Christians who write blogs that do nothing but attack other Christians need to find a real job
Amen
I understand what he’s saying…however…could it not be said: Christians who tweet slamming other Christians need to find a real job”?
Those sort of statements rile up the constituency, but are really meaningless.
Hi Matt,
I wasn’t speaking of you specifically but read Wade, Debbie and James Whites’ posts. If you think they don’t want Dr. Caner fired and the rest of the CR guys, you’re reading different posts than I am. I don’t know your motives. It seems like you and some of the others have sort of flipped flopped back and forth on what you would like to see happen. Liberty is conducting an investigation. I will personally accept whatever they conclude. Many will not.
I doubt White cares one way or the other about getting CR guys fired. Yes, he’s on Caner pretty good but I can’t see him going after him because he’s CR.
Michael McGirt:
You said:”I will personally accept whatever they conclude. Many will not.”
Just remember they are investigating one of their own.
You also say you have seen all of those saying they want Dr. Caner fired. Sadly I have been reading a lot of these blogs and I can say that is not what I have seen. For those that are saying he deserves to be fired it seems like you are conveniently leaving out why.
This guy put himself in this position and if LU fires him it is his fault.
Also you said”First, it was Dr. Patterson, then the IMB BOT, then Dr. Patterson again, then Dr. Ergun Caner, then Dr. Emir Caner. Who’s next? Albert Mohler? Danny Akin? Chuck Kelley? I mean seriously, can we all do ministry without having to try to take someone down every few months?”
Wow, you talk about diverting attention away from the real matter at hand.
This has nothing to do with all of these other people.
It is called accountability.
Matt,
You say……Ergun to come clean, repent, so that we can all move forward. It is a shame when people get blasted for trying to hold our leaders accountable for their words and actions.
can you show me this from Scripture …I am assuming that you dont attend TRBC—-corect me if I am wrong! It seems its all a local church issue and a employment issue(Liberty Baptist seminary) but not at all a Church universal issue.
Robert I Masters
Robert,
It is not a church universal issue, at all. It is an SBC issue. Ergun is not a pastor, he is the president of an entity that is in connection with the SBC, therefore, it is an SBC issue. This is also an SBC issue because he has preached in A LOT of SBC churches. If he repents, it does need to be in a public way. He is a public figure in the SBC and he has lied in SBC churches about his testimony.
Your point about it being a Liberty is right as well. I am very happy that Liberty is doing an investigation. They do need to deal with it. Yet, if it werent for people asking these questions then Liberty never would of investigated!
No matter what Liberty finds, whether it is in favor of Ergun or not, I am not going to spend my life discussing this issue. If they find that he has lied and he repents then I will be quick to forgive, show grace, and move on with my life- happy that Liberty is in relationship with the SBC. If they say that they find nothing worthy of action, then while I might not agree and will be disappointed in my school I will not lose sleep. I will voice my opinion and then move on.
All in all, I am thrilled that an official investigation is taking place. It is the only way we will be able to move forward.
He’s also accountable to each and every congregation that he’s preached in front of IF he did, in fact, lie in his sermons.
He’s also accountable to each and every person who read his books IF he did, in fact, misrepresent facts and/or wrote outright falsehoods.
He’s accountable only IF he sinned.
And forgiveness DOES NOT exempt from consequences.
Tom,
Thanks for proving my point, “they are investigating one of their own.” People will not be satisfied with an investigation that keeps Dr. Caner in his current position. That’s the point. This is definitely a local church issue. Siince they receive no direct funding from the SBC, technically, they aren’t accountable to SB. I guess, Tom, if they decide to keep him there, don’t send your kids, church members, friends and don’t have him preach in your church. That’s about all you can do, if that’s what you choose.
I agree with you in principle, Michael, but would offer one question.
Does not a “celebrity” Christian have some sort of responsibility to the general Christian world?
Matt,
I wont keep belaboring the point but the SBC is not a Biblically ordained structure so it has no disciplinary task.
entity with a sbc connection…..thats loosy goosey.
legally that means nothing in the same way then the SBC has any power over Cedarville.
Robert I Masters
Robert,
I should of been more clear, my apologies. When I say, the SBC, I am talking about the churches that make up the SBC. The churches that have promoted Erguns books, invited him to preach, etc. I am not saying the Convention has to take some disciplinary action, only Liberty can and should do that. But it would be right for Ergun to apologize to the “SBC” because that is his platform and it is those churches in which he deceived…
Scott,
You say……He’s also accountable to each and every congregation that he’s preached in front of IF he did, in fact, lie in his sermons.
I was speaking of a disciplinary level here can you show me that from Scripture. I believe that it would only be the local Churchs responsibility. I wait with anticipation for you to enlighten me from His Word.
Robert I Masters
Robert,
You were speaking of a disciplinary level, but it appears Scott and I arent… Well, maybe Scott is, but I certainly wasnt.
If I lied to you and sinned against you, wouldnt I need to apologize and make it right with YOU? Im not saying you would have disciplinary rights over me, but I certainly owe you an apology. If I genuinely repent of my sin then me apologizing to the person I lied to certainly seems right.
Matt said
If you charged someone with sin through lying and told them explicitly what you believe they lied about would this be an acceptable act of repentance to say something like the following.
I didn’t intentionally misspeak against you. It’s just that I talk all the time and I’m bound to misspeak. I’m sorry and will try to do better.
Having church discipline levied against you is different than being held accountable for your actions and possibly even sinful actions.
My stance is this:
If Ergun Caner has in fact lied in his sermons, his writings, and in his dealings with his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, then he should be held accountable to the consequences of his actions.
If Ergun Caner is found to be innocent in all of this, then I hope not another word of this will ever come up again and that he continues on into long-lasting and fruitful ministry.
Now, what does ‘being held accountable to the consequences’ look like?
Well, I would assume that he would lose his position at Liberty University and I would also assume that in the short term, he’ll have difficulty finding speaking engagements and/or writing opportunities. However, there is reconciliation to be had and that takes time. There will be people and congregations that will forgive him, but it doesn’t mean that they will trust him to come in and preach, teach, and any other means of ministry to either individuals or groups. It will take time and it’s possible to achieve that.
I still hold to my statement that forgiveness doesn’t exempt us from the consequences of our actions. If I lie to you, I can be forgiven of my sin of lying, but the consequence is that you won’t be trusting me anytime soon.
Again, if he’s innocent, then God bless him and his ministry and may the detractors kindly let this issue go away.
Matt,
I personally read on SBCToday where Ergun Caner apologized for his sins.
If the the consequences of those sins are to be meted out on a different level I have no say in it.
I am done with Ergun period.
Grace
Least someone thinks I lie later on ….what I meant by done was I have forgiven him and pray for his on going success.
Darby
This is the funniest thing I’ve seen in a good many years. My husband is still laughing!
“Then it will be the worst investigation since Al Capone’s Vaults. How can the investigation prove he hasn’t told any lies when we’ve seen him lie on video and print and he has supposedly apologized for lying already? My gosh, are we a bunch of ostriches?”
Of course he has lied, not just once or twice… but I think it could accurately be labeled as serial lying. Then… when he knows that the public records prove he has lied, he still stone-walls. If he was committed to Christ and to those he is supposed to be serving, he would man-up and resign. He is doing nothing more than showing the unsaved world, that Christians are no more honest than Barack Obama’s promise of transparency!
Just to reiterate what I said yesterday, God has no such standard of “innocent until proven guilty”. That’s an American convention that works for mere mortals, God knows our hearts. I seem to remember something from Psalm 139 that is pretty clear, he knows our getting up, going out and we cannot escape his love. Whom He loves, he also disciplines.
My post it titled: “Common sense”, “for truth”, “prayerfully”, and “neither for or against”…
Do not read if…
You are neither a Saved-Christian by Acts 2:38, and NOT a religious and dutiful ‘Christian’ of John 3:16 and relying on ‘your own’ profession of faith (unbiblical instance of salvation lacking repentance)…Of which, if you are not (the first), I would know, that you do not know of my words ahead, that you do not confirm them together with me and others here as the church and my brother (if you are truly), to know them as a spirit-filled Christian. I believe and know all Christians confirm the same validities in life and when in question, consult the Rock, his Word.
Let me just state my view upfront, that as a Christian and someone to not judge someone in the sinful way as posted above; having as I know the Word, especially Christ’s Words, and prayerfully know that having the Spirit within, I or any other Christian could ever post such a thing regarding another true Christian. I would almost listen to your claims if, 1 you knew him 2 are under him in church, class, or another instance like so, but especially you would have to know of his personal fruit. You cannot and wouldn’t make this claim if you knew his true spirit-filled fruit as his church and true brothers in Christ do. Besides you seem like until God opens a door of revelation, you are at a point of no return, I say this because any fruit you know of him doing or have done means nothing…you would most likely disregard it being how he supposedly is guilty ‘to you’. Being as tired as I am at the moment, God has stated that three verses will judge you as a pastor…you selfishly put a ”stumbling block” in your way being a hardened self-jugde (judge of a brother no less! Hatred one could almost sense in your slandering post), you are ”willingly ignorant” to any true or positive spiritual confirmation, in combination with the lies you stated that another commenter said you were “sickening”..As a Christian I would have to agree with this commentors description of sickening…3. You are supposedly a pastor, I definitely do not have to state to you what verses a Shepard of a flock is charged with. I will personally add a 4. Spirit-lead people would know, this is God’s business, SIN, of which, you are neither of caners members or council! How could Mr. pastor of small corner first baptist of possum kill Tennessee judge you? He couldn’t, in fact you would not even waste time of breathe on him…In which you are wasting your energy that could be spent repenting, and being in the word much more than you talk, as needed; must I prescribe you this medicine 3 times a day or more? I had encountered Ergun, from a students and short term member of TRBC point of view and I felt and know of his spirit and confirm him to be true and doing MUCH for the Lord. How can you talk??
Introduction over…
The main post.
i hate and now ‘mostly’ ignore, how people try to conceal their position and motive within a passionate statement, while using todays most popular and now ruined (but once good) phrases. In which, for the wise readers, anybody using these phrases nearly undermine themselves and the validity of what they are secretly trying to do. Basically they try to snatch people and their views of Ergun, by a easy first read of their rather shaky statements, and/or at least, to mentally raise doubts and many questions in the general public of Christians to discredit Ergun; and in conclutional hopes, these doubts and questions will reach mouth and so it will spread like a wild fire among the brotherhood, whether for or against, conversations come up everywhere regarding how Ergun is not what he says he is!! Thus, adding a sort of negative feel to the name Ergun Caner.
These very common and now used concealing phrases of a once good nature, have been twisted to be used for cleverly lying and manipulating means mostly online. They use them to make falsely assumed claims as their “holy” and “rightful” stances and their cornerstone of authority. If you were to remove these phrases from this post it would be shown, in its true sinful state as it is. The phrases include sorts like, “common sense”, “for truth”, “prayerfully”, and “neither for or against”…
Having seen enough of these phrases, in many and mostly lied filled remarks and statements, I personally see right through these nowadays. I also see how they are mixed in to create a second and effective effect, that their claim offends nobody online; in the way of not receiving any negative comments under their posts to encourage the free-thinking and open-minded readers to view his statement with any controversy and reply against his statement. For to receive ANY negative comments under a post being of a shaky, sinful, and very positional/emotional motives, just one negative comment will undermine to ruin his claims. This undermining of his claims are in the areas of reinforcing the wise readers’ freethinking and open-mindedness to post against this sinful pastor and his remark, and/or ruin his objective by not reaching mouth.
These phrases (once read enough), will learn to teach people to see through the claimed facts, really making what statements have to say in the way of real ‘truth’ not claimed. It seems, when you find these phrases used to discredit a Christian, look carefully to see if the statement is of ANY sort of negative/boredom/popularity issues. Or, if one is smart enough, to know that a lot of people, mix up facts and cleverly place questions and doubts all over and throughout the internet, being of a person in service to purposefully discredit someone, sadly either knowingly for themselves and more so not. It’s like math, when they do not know who they are really aiding and working for (just emotionally stating shaky facts), and when they are a Christian specifically against another Christian, are truly and unknowingly in service to Satan and his unseen forces and powers on earth.
I feel like I need an interpreter to tell me what that said. Wow.
So, you’re saying since we don’t know him personally, that we are unable to understand the issue?? Am I understanding that correctly?
Tom,
Generally, on someone else’s blog post, you don’t write and title your own blog post. I would suggest that you get your own blog and post this there. Its easy to start a blog and then people who are interested can come and comment on what you say.
All men-made kingdoms shall, one day, become rubbles of history, including Liberty. Liberty’s drive to build the largest organization on earth is NOT driven by the Gospel but by the americanization of the Gospel.
To achieve that goal, the name of Jesus Christ is being used by all means, even Falwell’s and Ergun Caner’s lies to bring in numbers.
Church history reminds that one by one, these men made kingdoms will become debris of history–signs of human hubris and greed. Don’t forget, Jerry Falwell Sr. just passed away a few months ago. And his kingdom is cracking at the foundation–theological and moral.
Kingdoms build on lies of arrogance will lie in ruins. Ergun Caner (since I first saw him on TV) happenned to be the most arrogant of all Gospel preachers. Truly, pride goes before destruction. His downfall signals also the sinking of the Liberty titanic
See if this makes sense. We have people who have not committed as Christians; and those that have are at different levels of understanding. We as Christians ask them to believe the Virgin Birth, His being the Son of God, Miracles, dieing on the Cross, Resurrection and acension. When someone whose word can’t be believed tries to convince or reenforce someone with these truths and is either known or is found out to be a liar, then his whole story can become suspect particularly to “weak sisters”. That’s part of the damage to me and it’s of the worst kind and has nothing to do with Calvinism. You guys forget that there is another world away from the Campus and away from the blog and the sleeping dogs in that world are wakeing up. It’s time.
The adults who replied to the First TOM are pathetic. I could not believe this topic has pastors and adults name calling and…. well Tom said his claims were sickening as a pastor (he meant, in love, that you are sick as a Christian to post such a slandering claim…You are in need of repenting, and in for some greater judgement if you truly are a Christian pastor. I think everyone has agreed that the author of the post is sick. Ergun says, “Preach, teach, and reach or get out of the way!” He will not give you any attention, sorry small town pastor.
tom,
You call people pathetic and then say you cant believe the name calling. Hmm…
I wasn’t aware that being a small town pastor was “sorry”.
I dont think God is aware of that either… Maybe tom could inform him that he shouldnt lead people to small churches in small towns because it is too lowly of a calling.
The condescending, arrogant nature of toms last sentence is sad and baffling.
You and I have been deemed the most arrogant bloggers in the Baptist world by our friend from North Carolina (though he really meant Jason, I guess). Maybe we can vote Tom into the ABA – “Arrogant Bloggers Association”.
Michael M:
You said to me:”Thanks for proving my point, “they are investigating one of their own.” People will not be satisfied with an investigation that keeps Dr. Caner in his current position. That’s the point. This is definitely a local church issue. Siince they receive no direct funding from the SBC, technically, they aren’t accountable to SB. I guess, Tom, if they decide to keep him there, don’t send your kids, church members, friends and don’t have him preach in your church. That’s about all you can do, if that’s what you choose.”
What a naive person you are. I shall not try to disturb you with the facts.
Joe B:
Who is DUD? I do not think I know him. I do notice your diversionary tactics on this blog topic.
First of all, look at any comment on this thread. Look at it. Do you see the little link that says “Reply”? You see that? When you’re responding to someone it makes it easier if you click on that and type your comment so they can see what you’re replying to. That way, they don’t have to hunt all over 140 comments to see what you’re talking about.
I still have no idea what you mean by “DUD”. If you had replied to the comment, I probably could have figured it out.
What divserionary tactics? I have said (1) if the descrepancies cannot be explained then Caner needs to make it right. The only descrepancy that really sticks in my mind is the allegation that he said he came to America when in his teens but that he moved here when he was less than 5. (2) Cough-man and Don Quixote don’t care about truth, much less biblical truth, and certainly not the gospel. They have proven that.
Joe B:
What do you mean by look at it?
Remember that others are viewing this blog and write with the thought in mind that you wish to honor Christ at all times in what you state. As to Caner, Liberty is evidently concerned enough to appoint a committee to investigate the situation. Whether the effort is serious, whether Dr. Caner’s repentance is serious, only time will tell. In the meanwhile, let us keep in mind the honor of our Lord Jesus Christ as we are suppose to glorify Him at all times with our lives and deeds and words. Admittedly, doing so is no easy task, but that is what God’s word calls us to do.
To All,
This thread has run its course. I am shutting down the comment thread and probably will not allow another “Ergun Caner” post until Liberty University is done with their investigation.
Let’s spend the next month praying for Ergun, his family, and Liberty University. May God have grace on all of us and from here on out may we, as Christians, show the world our value for truth, integrity, and grace.
Comments on this entry are closed.
{ 2 trackbacks }