Well, there is nothing significant to report right now. Nothing dramatic is going on in the SBC. After the last few months, this is probably a good thing!
Continue to pray for the GCR Task Force as they continue to learn and plan on how the SBC can best fulfill the Great Commission.
{ 42 comments… read them below or add one }
I hope we’re not in the eye of the storm.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Green Jobs Czar Van Jones victim of "vicious smear campaign" =-.
haha… I am with you on that!
Let’s start something.
A black Baptist preacher went to the hospital in Buffalo, NY to visit a young white boy who had been beaten horribly by a black gang for dating a black girl. The Preacher said it reminded him of Selma where he was involved in the Civil Rights Movement and things happened the other way around. I’ll bet St. Peter opens the Gates when he sees this Preacher coming! Time for me to take a break and leave y’all (southern) alone.
I just wanted to give kudos to the SBC and “The Way Out,” it’s Task Force on Ministry to Homosexuals. Bob Stith has been doing a great and careful job of building a network to educate Christians in SBC churches about the need to address one of our culture’s most perplexing problems: how to minister to Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction. The SBC has really matured on this issue and I think it will make a major difference in the lives of many people who want to be free of the unwanted same-sex attraction in their lives. This is tough for denominations but I appreciate the SBC’s position on it.
Thom Hunter
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
.-= Thom Hunter´s last blog ..The Blessing of the Taking Away =-.
Interesting comments. Here’s some cool Jesus tshirts to help spread the word! http://www.cafepress.com/jesusteesplus
ralph’s Jesus tee shirt comment prompts a request. While this lull in the SBC blogosphere is going on, perhaps one of SBCV contributors could do a piece on Christian bookstores and the Jesus-junk they peddle in the name of evangelism.
Bill,
What’s wrong with a good, “I’m cross-eyed tshirt”? lol
Or a personal favorite, no, no, its not a Reeses shirt, its a JESUS shirt! WooHoo
.-= Matt Svoboda´s last blog ..Suffering For The Elect =-.
Maybe the blogs are going silent because the summer is over and people are back to what really is important – being the church in our communities.
.-= tom Bryant´s last blog ..I Was Witnessed to Today =-.
That could be true, but Im not really just talking about “blogs” but the SBC as a whole. Thanks to the sometimes obnoxious SBC Today, the blogs always make a little noise…
I can’t believe you said that!
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Nick Swisher Can Hit .250 for My Team EVERY Year =-.
You must really like pain!
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Nick Swisher Can Hit .250 for My Team EVERY Year =-.
Tom,
Good point. And your “I Was Witnessed to Today” also makes a great statement. Hope everyone reads it.
David R. Brumbelow
.-= David R. Brumbelow´s last blog ..Wit And Wisdom Of My Dad =-.
All religions are experiencing difficulty;but, no other Seminary Presidents or Pastors of any Religion except OURS are trying to be political analyists. The SBC is silent but not their or OUR or The Southern Baptist Conventions representatives as far as the public is concerned. Richard Land, God bless him, is publishing info that is thirty days old and is critizing the health care “proposals”; there only being worked out in BOTH the House AND Senate as I write, and he has come to conclusions requiring clairvoyance on the finished product. Then there’s “Baptist” ministers who pray to GOD to kill Obama. And then we have the opinions of our seminary Presidents who act like paid political lobbyists responsible not to teaching students but controlling political policy. Just ordered a book from another religion’s seminary book store and had a conversation that confirmed we can turn more people OFF than we can turn ON. WE write new versions of the Bible (and now argue which version is alright to read) publish tons of books and make them RECCOMENDED READING.We should be better managers of Christianity and then maybe people somewhere would care what we have to say-about anything. I get enough from CNN & Fox that I dont need any more From SBC or their spokesmen. We need better trained ministers who know who they are andwhat’s Holy and what’s horrendous. Not better book authors.
What if for once we made good noise. We’re usually known for either our infighting or our boycotting…what if we used this time to be known for something. What if instead of speaking out against Obama and his health plan we offered a solution?
Imagine taking Acts to heart and when needs present themselves in our local communities we would gather, sell what we have and meet those needs. What if the government didn’t need to step in because we were doing it? What if we took up Obama’s charge and started saying….Be the Change? What if we took this time to create momentum? What if we became the leaders of social action? Known in the US for being the leaders in creating jobs, job training and for our generosity?
It’s time we had a message other than what we’re against!
.-= Grady Bauer´s last blog ..Are we indoctrinating or making disciples? =-.
Leaders of social action, creating jobs, etc? Sounds good, but that is not where I want my local church to be focused.
The SBC was making good noise when the GCR had been passed and attention was set at how to make the SBC better fulfill the Great Commission, which far exceeds social action… But, the good noise was quickly outdone with Chapman debacle, the anti-Driscolls, SBC Today, Baptist Press, and others…
One of my favorite songs by Casting Crowns is called Does Anybody Hear Her? The song chronicles in just a few short lyrics the story of a young woman “headed a hundred miles an hour in the wrong direction.” Sadly, as time passes, she struggles to find her way out of whatever is pulling her down; she searches for “a hero to ride in and save the day,” but her heart just grows colder and she puts herself through one misadventure after another.
I’ve been there. Not searching for a hero to save the day, but certainly searching and slipping into one misadventure after another. And I’ve found myself in a period when my heart indeed grew very cold and my soul was swamped in indifference. And, as the song says, I would find myself “another two years older and three more steps behind.”
But the real emphasis in the song is the question: “Does anybody hear her?” Out there, as the song says, “in the shadow of our steeple,” are thousands and thousands of men and women — some single, some married, crying out for affection and attention, a listening heart and a welcoming hand. More often than not, they end up finding that in the shadows, out of desperation. I’ve been there also.
God is beginning to move in the church. Some churches are working very positively and powerfully to help married men and women who struggle with same-sex attraction to move out of the shadow of shame and into the light of Christian love and support. To move out from under the crushing weight of condemnation onto the supporting pillar of compassion. To stand.
Stonegate Fellowship Church in Midland, Texas of all places has taken a very bold and very Christian approach to the problem of same-sex attraction: love and support. They recognize that Christian couples face this issue and have done so for many years in silence and with fear of discovery. Stonegate is bringing light to the problem and Christ’s love and healing to the couples by recognizing that it is a sin to be dealt with, just as any other sin in the church. Brother helping brother. Sister helping sister. Church helping church.
Stonegate’s heartfelt video explains in very simple terms the calling church members heard and to which they responded. Members of the church who do not struggle with the temptation of same-sex attraction looked within and saw their own sins and realized the sins of the strugglers come from the same root and seek the same solution. I hope you’ll take just a few minutes to click on the link and look at the video, pray for Stonegate’s ministry and consider how you or your church could be more responsive to those among you who suffer with same-sex attraction. If you think there are no couples in your church who have that problem, then you are either mistaken . . . or you’ve already frightened them all away. If you are one of those Christians who struggles, I hope knowing about Stonegate will lift your heart and give you hope.
http//www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/video/video.php?v=108486429248
The reality of same-sex attraction — even in Christian homes and families — will not go away just because we don’t want to acknowledge it. If that were the case — if it could simply be wished away or ignored out of existence — we as individuals who have lived with it would have banished it long ago. It can be loved away. If Christians will reach out to the “lost and lonely people searching for the hope that’s tucked away in you and me.”
The song ends with these words:
If judgement looms under every steeple,
If lofty glances from lofty people
Can’t see past her scarlet letter . . .
Certainly not every steeple.
Stonegate and other relevant, bold and Christ-empowered churches are proving that judgement does not loom under every steeple.
Our churches are filled with individuals who know how to love in response to Christ’s call. Sometimes they just need permission to be bold. To be bold enough to know they can love the same-sex struggler and do so without compromising the biblical standard of morality. Bold enough to look beyond the individual’s sin and see his or her need. Bold enough to be truthful about the sin and in the same comforting breath reflect Christ’s love and grace and help the struggler move toward redemption and restoration rather than out the door and back into the shadows.
The culture in which we live will not be hesitant to tell the struggler that he cannot change, that he is forever trapped. The church needs to drop its hesitancy and embrace the issue as boldly as does culture; we have truth on our side. We have the unchanging Word of God to put up against the flightiness of culture and the flawed studies of faulty groups. We have the everlasting promise of grace and redemption as opposed to the spinning cycle of feeling-good and feeling-guilty. We can offer certainty in place of confusion. And it can all be done with no compromise.
One other thing it cannot be done with: judgement. We have to put down the stones, lower our noses, reach out our hands, hold back a few words here and there and look beyond a person’s past, understand his present, pray for his future and walk into it with him. With him . . . or her. They’re part of our flock.
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?” — Luke 15:4
We won’t have to go far to find the same-sex struggler “sheep.” They may be in the closets of your churches. They’re hoping someone will notice and see them as Christ does and help them come out into the light and change. We can help them leave the lifestyle behind them.
God bless,
Thom — http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
DO YOU WANT TO HAVE A PERSONAL “RUSH” that will improve your Christianity, character and feeling of accomplihment. VISIT A BLACK CHURCH some Sunday. Unless you have been before, you will come away in about an hour a changed and better person. How? That’s for you to discover. I would do you a disservice by telling you in advance. Go to worship God and you will come away having experienced what only a few have . Maybe one day you’ll preach as a guest Pastor in a black Baptist or AME Church revival. Or their Pastor might come to your chuech. “Take a walk on the wild side” and don’t forget 911 and all the courage that happened that day. I’m serious , you can’t gain greater stature for a more noble purpose in only ONE HOUR.
“But, the good noise was quickly outdone with Chapman debacle, the anti-Driscolls, SBC Today, Baptist Press, and others…”
Matt,
If that is all it takes to drown out the “good noise” then we are barely whispering. The problem that the SBC has and continues to have is that we have no compelling gospel vision that anyone is excited about or is willing to die for. No one wants to talk about ministry and what God is doing. We’re bored with it. I regularly write posts about miracles that are happening in my church and community through the obedience of the people of God. I’m pretty excited about it. I’ll either get zero or 2 comments. But, if I write about some stupid political issue in the SBC, I’ll get a bunch of comments. The blogosphere has a sickness in that most who participate are regularly looking for something to complain about and we don’t know how to interact around good things. Now, there are a lot of really good posts being written and I am enjoying reading them. But, there is no discussion around these topics right now because they do not engender debate or stories from others for some reason.
Grady is absolutely right. We should be doing the things that he is saying because when the church is being the church, we are helping people in all kinds of ways. Our church tries to help people get jobs in that if we can refer someone, help them make a contact, or put someone in position to care for themselves and their family, we do it. We care about education. We care about whether or not people have food and we try and do something about it. All of that just seems like implications of the gospel being lived out. We have fallen for the lie that to help people equals the social gospel. That is not true. You can preach justification by faith in Christ alone while also helping someone with the rest of their life. Actually, in the South where we are inoculated against the gospel because we have been “preaching” a watered-down version of it, we need to see deeds go along with our words so that “love your neighbor” is more than an occasional sermon topic.
Lots of great stuff is happening. The GCR Task Force would be successful if they would continually highlight the good that is going on so that the “good noise” overwhelms everything else.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..Six Keys to Save the Church in the West :: almost an M =-.
Alan,
I agree with most of what you said, but I will still stand by my point that the church does not need to be getting together to come up with a health care plan… It’s not our priority.
Im not trying to say that those things completely drowned out all the good noise, but one cannot deny that at the height of the good noise all of those things were certainly a deterrent.
Matt,
I don’t think that anyone said that we needed to come up with a health care plan. I agree, that sounds like a waste of time. But, that was definitely not what Grady was talking about. Don’t go all straw man on us now.
Some of the “bad noise” was made by the GCR leaders themselves. Remember all the tweeting being done by Hunt, Moore, Mohler, and others over the Clark Logan affair? That was politics, Matt. They were trying to clear the playing field of opposition, in my opinion. They had all this momentum and they should have just stayed positive. Logan was gone and all their tweeting wasn’t going to get his job back. It could only serve to damage Chapman so that he would not be an obstacle to what they wanted to do. Instead of working off the positive momentum of what happened in Louisville, attention got diverted to a side issue for about 3 weeks and they were leading the charge. I wrote about this and begged for people to stop. I even sent emails to people. They were missing the point.
At any rate, it is September and we should be involved in a convention-wide discussion about our future and excitement should be building. Instead, we look around and nothing is happening. Once you politicize the Great Commission, everyone loses. Was Chapman wrong? Did injustice happen? I don’t know. Maybe so. But, do you take your eye off the ball to chase butterflies and expend your energy on things that you can’t do anything about? No. You stay focused and deal with things like the Logan issue by picking up the phone and confronting people. Stop tweeting.
Anyway, interest has definitely waned. It will pick back up again in March or so when people start wondering what will be recommended regarding NAMB and the CP, but that will not be a Great Commission Resurgence. That will be a simple restructuring voted on by about 7,000 people.
jack,
I’ve never been to a black church that lasted only ONE HOUR! It usually goes on for at least 3 hours and they all actually seem to enjoy being there. You’re right! It is a very different experience than most white baptists go through when people start looking at their watches after 45 minutes just hoping that the preacher doesn’t push the service past an hour because they want to get out of there and get to lunch.
It’s amazing what a difference it makes when you actually WANT to go to church instead of being there because you just always do it.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..Six Keys to Save the Church in the West :: almost an M =-.
Matt…you said…”Leaders of social action, creating jobs, etc? Sounds good, but that is not where I want my local church to be focused. ”
Not trying to be rude…but if you don’t want your church focused on the community around you….what do you want it focused on?
The GCR started as a passionate grassroots type thing and now it’s been turned into a committee that’s studying what we need. The reason there is nothing being talked about is because nothing is changing. I agree with Alan…if I post about the church being church I get 2-3 comments…if I post something political about the IMB or SBC I get 10+ comments and my hits go out the roof.
I really wonder if the majority of the SBC really wants anything to change. We should be the leaders of change in our communities. We should be the ones the government is asking if they can partner with. We honestly seem to be more passionate about Calvinism than we are about reaching the communities around us. Shame on us. We in the SBC have no message…that’s why there is no noise.
You also said, “I will still stand by my point that the church does not need to be getting together to come up with a health care plan… It’s not our priority.” It’s possible we wouldn’t need a health care plan if the church would simply be the church. Acts 2:13-14, “All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods , they gave to anyone as he had need.”
Grady
.-= Grady Bauer´s last blog ..Are we indoctrinating or making disciples? =-.
Grady,
First of all, Acts 2:13-14 is specifically talking about the church. That is NOT a verse to point to when talking about health care. Health care involves believers and nonbelievers, that verse is specifically talking about the church taking care of their own.
“Not trying to be rude…but if you don’t want your church focused on the community around you….what do you want it focused on?”
I want my church focused on what Jesus wants all churches to be focused on: making disciples, fulfilling the great commission. You can make it sound pretty by saying things like “love your community and serve them.” BUT if the central way of doing that isnt making disciples then it is a disservice to the church. Community prosperity, while it is good, is not a top priority for the church, making disciples is the top priority, according to the Bible.
“We should be the ones the government is asking if they can partner with.”
No offense, but if the church was being the church the government would be trying to kill us, not ask us about health care.
Focusing on issues such as social action, health care, immigration, etc. is not where the churches resources, time, and energy needs to be… Obeying the commission given to us by Christ is where our full attention ought to be. No one comes to Jesus because we have a good idea about health care, sorry.
Matt,
Maybe I need to explain my thought process a little better. I agree with you that the church is to be about making disciples and fulfilling the GC…but the question is what is the context?
I live and work overseas in a “closed” country…so how we connect with people? We are leaders in social action. We do everything from working in orphanages, provide clean drinking water, do educational training…a wide myriad of things. We can’t fall back on a campus to draw people in…we’re required to let our light shine and do good works among those in need. The result…we get to share our faith on an almost daily basis….why? Because they see us caring about them and making a difference in their lives. Why not do this in the US?
What if a church decided to get off the campus and serve the community? What if a church decided to be missional and members started using their gifts in their off times to help those around them? Matt I would bet you if your church did this…off campus…in their world…partnering with and serving with existing organizations….not only would your community be changed…but your members would be amazed at how God can use them….and you would find people all over your community that would be ready to hear your message.
I’m not sure why the government would be trying to kill us….maybe you just finished reading “Left Behind”. Our home church has become a community leader in supporting education in our community. We’ve also become known for our generosity and willingness to serve the community. The result….when there was a recent disaster in the community the mayor’s first call was to our church. Why? Because we’re being salt and light in the community and they know they can count on us. We’re one of the few churches who extend their ministry beyond the campus into the community.
Salt does nothing if it stays in the shaker…open up the lid and let it loose and we will be making disciples and fulfilling the GC.
.-= Grady Bauer´s last blog ..Are we indoctrinating or making disciples? =-.
“I’m not sure why the government would be trying to kill us….maybe you just finished reading “Left Behind”.”
First, I am Amillennial… Second, you keep making references of the “church being the church” and in Acts, where that is exactly what is going on, you see the authorities trying to kill the church rather than coming to them for advice. You see it everywhere except the West, where the church is full of politics and “social initiative.”
I feel like continuing this debate would be like beating a dead horse.
My final thoughts: Social action isnt bad, but it is only a means to an end, not a central focus. Social action is not what Christians are to be known for, at least not in the Scriptures. We are to be known for our love for one another(the church), not making the communities around us prosper. All that will do is get people using the church for social gain rather than going to the church because she is the pillar and buttress of truth. Making social action a main priority flies in the face of the gospel and the mission of the church.
“Social action is not what Christians are to be known for, at least not in the Scriptures. We are to be known for our love for one another(the church), not making the communities around us prosper.”
Matt, what about the parable of the Good Samaritan? What about Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 25? Do you have room for that in your theology?
Feed the hungry. Clothe the naked. Give water to the thirsty. Care for the sick. Visit those in prison. Welcome the stranger. Sounds like social ministry to me. Jesus said that if we didn’t do those things, we would go to hell.
James 1:27 says, “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”
Matt, do you believe that we are only to love those inside of the church? Would you not agree that we are blessed to be a blessing? If we are salt and light and if we love others sacrificially the way that Jesus told us to (even our enemies), then why would the communities around us not prosper?
I am REALLY confused by the version of Christianity that you are holding up. The Social Gospel is VERY different from Christians engaging in social work as an outflow of their love for God and other people. Social work is not the gospel, but it IS an implication of the gospel. Do you think that Christians should not have gone to help when Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast? Was that not the mission of the church? Is it not important to feed the hungry and care for the poor or protect the weak? Why would we separate the mission of Jesus from caring for the poor and feeding the hungry? Why would we truncate the gospel to a message about how I can personally be right with God and say nothing about how God is making the world right through the work of the Church as it lives out the implications of the gospel. I really am just trying to understand where you are coming from and would love some clarity. You might think that you are beating a dead horse here, but this is a worthwhile conversation to have, I think.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.
I agree that we could probably beat this one into the ground. I do want to clear something up…I’m not saying that the church should come up with a health plan. I’m also not saying that the end goal of the church should be social action. I do however agree with Alan…we need to get our focus off of the campus and onto the world around us. We don’t fulfill the Great Commission on campus….it doesn’t say wait and respond…it says go and tell. I think being active in our local communities engaging in social action provides us the opportunities to share and the right to be heard in a society that is increasingly becoming post-Christian.
.-= Grady Bauer´s last blog ..Are we indoctrinating or making disciples? =-.
Seeing as we don’t have anything else to talk about… let’s talk about healthcare reform. Has anyone heard anything about what the possible impact of Oboma’s Universal healthcare plan will be upon the Agencies and Churches of the SBC?
Questions:
Will small churches now be required to have full coverage for their Pastors, and part time employees, which many simply cannot afford?
Many of these small church pastors participate in one of the Christian Medical Expense sharing programs… Will these small churches and their pastors be subject fines if they do not get “proper” insurance?
Some may even find the whole idea of “Insurance” offensive to their beliefs… what will happen to them?
And lastly, we must honestly ask ourselves… Will these small church pastors be better off under the “public option”?
Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Is NAMB a "Relic of the Past"? =-.
I just read Thom Hunters blog – that’s good stuff. He understands the feelings on both sides. He’s got somthing to offer some SBC church that believes HATE in any form is wrong. We as Christians are not to HATE but are to not condone the practice of homosexuality. People who fight this problem end up drinking, have problems with their marriage and would appreciate a spiritual relatioship for themselves and for their family if in a traditional marriage. I think the first rule could be no “orange” or “blond streaked” hair in church so as to not take away attention from the pulpit. A deacon in an SBC church told me he attended the AA meetings so he could pick up women. I found out I was the only one that didn’t know that existed. It would take the right people and the right decor on both side to make it work. Theirs always the person that’s getting left behind-the jilted half that might cause problems. It would take some thought and planning but a person with Thom’s understanding would certainly be an asset. I remember when the Catholic Church had a lot of people who wanted to “speak in tongues”. Most wanted to throw them out but better heads prevailed and they found them a sound proof room and let them have at it. Thats been years ago and nobody died. I think Thom is on the right track. Now find a Pastor who will talk to you.
Obama says ” If you like the Health Insurance you have, you dont have to change. There are “poorer” people than pastors of small churchs and they will have health insurance. Anybody like motorcycle racing, parachutes, working on cars, hiking or any activity beside reading? Then accidents can happen to young people and they will feel better being covered by somthing that is not going to cancel on them because they broke their back and there’s a clause the Co. can reach in and drag up that lets them “skate”on the bill. There are some bums out here. Go talk to poor people and find out what they do when they get sick and where they get the medicine and how they get around to these places. Alot of them pay 4 x what people with insurance pay for whatever they get because people with insurance have “negotiated” rates. When doctors refuses to write generic prescriptions , who pays? Who among you is going to stand up face to face with the doctor and demand the generic rx when all else is equal? Then ask yourself how many humble personalities are going to do it? There’s a different world out here and you dont have to go to Africa to find it.
Some people, pastors included are suggesting to new hire graduates that they don’t sign up for (which means not paying for) Social Security. That means more money in your pocket now, but no soc. money in old age, no medicare, no prescription benefits. There more interested in keeping the money under an Irs exemption. They say it’s going “broke” and won’ be around. I hope I don’t bite my tongue but the US will, I believe, reach in and fix this stuff when their ready just like they are reaching in now. I don’t have a crystal ball but shame on those that have decided to avoid the tax payments when they might need the money in later years. I guess there planning on making big bucks always so they can pay big bucks for super good health insurance always. Medicare is good insurance and the government sends to jail doctors , administrators etc who scam it. Medicaid is for people who have run out of money. We can’t let people lay in the gutter until they die and pick them up with a trash truck. I didn’t vote for Obama in case you wonder, but he seems to be made of the “right stuff”!
Alan,
I am not saying the church is not to do those things… What I have been saying the whole time is that those things are not the churches main priority, the Great Commission is… How is that not clear?
The church ought to feed the hungry, etc, but if we do those social actions and stop there we do a disservice to everyone. We are called to make disciples, not be known for health care reform and other social matters.
Don’t try to put me in this, “Matt isnt for serving those around him” because that is not what I am saying. All I am saying is that the main priority of the church is making disciples, simple as that. When we allow our focus to mover from the GC to social action we stop being the church. That is exactly what the Emergent church has done and it is a shame to God.
Yes, clothe the naked, feed the hungry… But those things are very different than Christians sitting around a table to come up with an national health care plan, which is what I have been talking about. It seems you have twisted what I have been saying.
Social action is an implication of the gospel… All I have been saying is that we cant replace the gospel with this particular implication.
I think this is beating a dead horse because you all are twisting my words to make it seem that I would rather kick my neighbor in the shins rather than feed him dinner. Yes, I would love to clothe, feed, etc. my neighbor, but I certainly wont stop there. I love even more to share the gospel with him that he might become a disciple and lover of Jesus.
This is only going to be a worthwhile conversation if e stop talking past each other. Just because I say things like, “Social action is not the main priority to the church” does not mean I am saying Christians shouldnt care about their neighbors, which is what you an Grady have implied in your last responses. Making disciples is main priority, the gospel is main priority, its IMPLICATIONS(social action) is secondary to the gospel itself.
Also, I dont think we should be clumping feeding the poor and coming up with a national health care plan in the same category. The social action that Christians partake in should not primarily be political. The church should be very active in building homes, feeding, clothing, etc their neighbors. That does not mean we should keep putting all of our cards in the political sphere. When I said “social action” earlier in this thread I was clearly talking about christians coming up with a governmental, national health care plan and then you all twisted what I was saying by acting like I dont believe in “clothing your neighbor”, etc.
“If we are salt and light and if we love others sacrificially the way that Jesus told us to (even our enemies), then why would the communities around us not prosper?”
Being salt and light has nothing to do with community prosperity. Realize that Jesus taught about being salt and light immediately after he talked about Christians being persecuted. It was in the context of persecution, not community prosperity that Jesus talked about his disciples being salt and light. Community prosperity does come directly from the church being salt and light. What does come from the church being salt and light is people get saved. Its funny how us Americans read something that Jesus says in the context of persecution and somehow we make it about community prosperity.
There was no community prosperity during the Great Dispersion. There was just a lot of Christians being killed and yet a lot of people becoming Christians…. Why? In the midst of persecution, they were being salt and light. What was the result? The ministry of reconciliation, not community prosperity. People were being saved and becoming a part of the body of Christ.
There are a lot of countries where there are Christians being salt and light and yet the countries and their communities are not prospering, but yet people are being saved. You line that I quoted at the beginning of this comment could only be said of someone living in the West. You, like us all, are more of a product of our culture than we would like to admit.
May God help us!
Matt,
Read my comment below first. I wrote that one first and then saw this comment which I am now responding to.
You say, “Being salt and light has nothing to do with community prosperity. ” Then, you say, “Community prosperity does come directly from the church being salt and light. What does come from the church being salt and light is people get saved.” And then you also say, “You line that I quoted at the beginning of this comment could only be said of someone living in the West. You, like us all, are more of a product of our culture than we would like to admit. ”
Well, Matt, apparently you are the one tying community prosperity to money, so who is the product of Western culture? Actually, what I was thinking about was that when people come to Christ through the gospel and become Christians who are being salt and light, they promote right living, honesty, hard work, intergrity, faithfulness, and commitment. They follow biblical standards on sexuality. Families are more likely to stay intact. The number one cause of poverty is family breakdown and out of wedlock births. Fatherlessness is a primary contributor to an upshot in teen crime rates and male incarceration. All of those virtues that I mentioned earlier are implications of the gospel. In my thinking, if Christians live this way and make disciples of others and teach them to live this way, then their communities will begin to prosper in many ways. Families will be strengthened. Crime rates will go down. The community will be safer. Trust will grow between neighbors. People will believe that God has a plan for their life that is greater than barely surviving.
Actually, Matt, everywhere that the gospel has gone and has been believed and practiced, the society has prospered in one way or another and eventually, economically. Sociologist Max Weber wrote “The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism in the early 20th Century detailing this very phenomenon. More recently, Lawrence Harrison and Samuel Huntingdon have led a movement of economists, sociologists, and historians that are promoting the view that wherever the values that are present in Christianity emerge in a culture, that culture prospers. I go to Northern India every six months and do holistic ministry there and we are seeing the results that take place from a change of world-view. I’ve also seen it in the inner cities of America.
I believe that the gospel is very powerful and that it can change a person, a family, and a community. When people are reconciled to God, everything changes. Financial prosperity might or might not result from that reconciliation (other factors like persecution, war, economic recessions, etc., surely must be considered), but whether people become wealthy or not, I fully believe that a relationship with Christ causes people to prosper in fundamental ways both socially, emotionally, and eventually, economically. The Puritans believed this as well, it seems. Middle class Baptists who value education and go to college and seminary believe it as well.
I do not believe that you would separate Christian ethics and lifestyle from the Gospel. Through the gospel we are reconciled to God and we begin to live for Him. Then, our behavior changes. We tell the truth. We take responsibility. We work hard. We maintain commitments. We do not leave our spouses. All of these things are building blocks for healthy communities and prosperity and when these values spread throughout a community because people in that community have come to Christ and they are discipled and not just converted, then they will prosper in many ways. Yes, I do believe that.
All of those things are not the gospel. But, a change in lifestyle and behavior is to the result of the gospel and it would be foolish to say that those changes have no result on the quality of a person’s life and ultimately the life of a community.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.
That second line you quoted was a typo.. It was supposed to say “does no come directly.” My apologies.
My response to the rest of your comment- Good word and well said.
Thanks for the clarification, Matt. I’m not trying to attack you. I asked you some questions, which you answered. Thank you. I am also not trying to “twist” your words. That is why I quoted you and asked you questions from your own words. Again, you answered, so I appreciate it.
I don’t know if the “Church” can come up with a National Health Care Plan. Actually, I think it is impossible. Has the “Church” in America been able to come up with anything? But, Christians serving in government and health care can come up with a plan that is beneficial to everyone and works from the truth and wisdom that God gives. Christian scholars can provide insight into Christian principles that could guide these professionals. Christians in every field can do more to care for their fellow man and churches can encourage responsibility and stewardship on the part of their people. Also, wherever there is corruption, Christians in the field of public service can call for justice and righteousness to prevail. I doubt you would be against Christians being salt and light in their sphere of vocation.
I would caution you to not create a false dichotomy between “preaching the gospel” and doing good works. They do not have to take away from one another, but they can go together just like they did in Jesus’ ministry. Just because Christians are feeding and caring for the poor does not mean that they are not proclaiming the gospel in word. I see people say that a lot and I think that you’re either going to proclaim the gospel or you aren’t. I’ve never seen the task of caring for the poor be an impediment to sharing the gospel, so if people aren’t preaching Christ, there is likely another reason than the fact that they are caring for the poor. Us Evangelicals continue to react against the Social Gospel and seem to fear that caring for people’s physical needs will somehow serve as an impediment to proclaiming the gospel. I don’t see why that should be the case.
Matt, I apologize if you felt attacked. That was not my intention. Your words caused me to ask questions, which you answered. It’s just a discussion. No big deal. I have no interest in twisting anything. It’s just something that I’m interested in and was curious as to your position. I was confused about what you were saying and instead of staying confused I asked you for clarification. Thanks for engaging.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.
Alan,
I appreciate your friendly response to my prideful, defensive one.
I ask that you forgive my pride. I dont know you very well, but I am a fan of your blog and have much enjoyed many things you have written in the blogosphere. I certainly know that there was no “attacking” going on… Maybe this is evidence as to why I shouldnt blog after a double shift!
I know you werent trying to “twist” my words, but it appeared that way because I thought it was clear that when I first started talking about “social action” we were talking pretty specifically about the health care issue and next thing I knew it had turned into this “Matt says caring for the poor isnt something the church should worry about.”
I’m certainly not trying to cause a false dichotomy. I’m just trying to emphasize that which is MOST important, making disciples. I’m not saying that they cant happen simultaneously, but I am saying that with an emphasis on making disciples the social part falls terribly short.
No problem. I enjoy the dialogue over things of substance, which happens rarely. It is easy to be mistaken over what someone is saying in the blogosphere because we don’t always have the same definitions of words based on past experiences. Obviously, my definition of social action is different from yours, but through asking some questions, we understand each other better. I have so moved past the idea that politics is an answer for what ails us that when I think about social involvement, I am almost always thinking of grass-roots intervention with the gospel and sacrificial love being what guides us. I have written a whole series on my blog about how we need to be prophetic instead of political.
If we were able to talk in person, we would probably end up in the same place on this it seems, but it looks like our life experience is a bit different which causes us to see things from different angles at first. That is okay. Different perspectives only help us to be sharper in our perception.
Thanks for the dialogue.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.
“If we were able to talk in person, we would probably end up in the same place on this it seems”
Agreed- “We’re not so different, you and I.”
NOTICE:
There are over 35 comments on a post that has 4 sentences. Thats funny…
” A TRADITION TO BE PROUD OF… THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH” An advertisement on the front page of a major paper, in 3 colors which invites people to Christ. Sounds like a wise expense that is on target. But the SBC has more important things to beat their and our gums about IN PUBLIC.