Agreed- “We’re not so different, you and I.”

My response to the rest of your comment- Good word and well said.

If we were able to talk in person, we would probably end up in the same place on this it seems, but it looks like our life experience is a bit different which causes us to see things from different angles at first. That is okay. Different perspectives only help us to be sharper in our perception.

Thanks for the dialogue.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.

Read my comment below first. I wrote that one first and then saw this comment which I am now responding to.

You say, “Being salt and light has nothing to do with community prosperity. ” Then, you say, “Community prosperity does come directly from the church being salt and light. What does come from the church being salt and light is people get saved.” And then you also say, “You line that I quoted at the beginning of this comment could only be said of someone living in the West. You, like us all, are more of a product of our culture than we would like to admit. ”

Well, Matt, apparently you are the one tying community prosperity to money, so who is the product of Western culture? Actually, what I was thinking about was that when people come to Christ through the gospel and become Christians who are being salt and light, they promote right living, honesty, hard work, intergrity, faithfulness, and commitment. They follow biblical standards on sexuality. Families are more likely to stay intact. The number one cause of poverty is family breakdown and out of wedlock births. Fatherlessness is a primary contributor to an upshot in teen crime rates and male incarceration. All of those virtues that I mentioned earlier are implications of the gospel. In my thinking, if Christians live this way and make disciples of others and teach them to live this way, then their communities will begin to prosper in many ways. Families will be strengthened. Crime rates will go down. The community will be safer. Trust will grow between neighbors. People will believe that God has a plan for their life that is greater than barely surviving.

Actually, Matt, everywhere that the gospel has gone and has been believed and practiced, the society has prospered in one way or another and eventually, economically. Sociologist Max Weber wrote “The Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism in the early 20th Century detailing this very phenomenon. More recently, Lawrence Harrison and Samuel Huntingdon have led a movement of economists, sociologists, and historians that are promoting the view that wherever the values that are present in Christianity emerge in a culture, that culture prospers. I go to Northern India every six months and do holistic ministry there and we are seeing the results that take place from a change of world-view. I’ve also seen it in the inner cities of America.

I believe that the gospel is very powerful and that it can change a person, a family, and a community. When people are reconciled to God, everything changes. Financial prosperity might or might not result from that reconciliation (other factors like persecution, war, economic recessions, etc., surely must be considered), but whether people become wealthy or not, I fully believe that a relationship with Christ causes people to prosper in fundamental ways both socially, emotionally, and eventually, economically. The Puritans believed this as well, it seems. Middle class Baptists who value education and go to college and seminary believe it as well.

I do not believe that you would separate Christian ethics and lifestyle from the Gospel. Through the gospel we are reconciled to God and we begin to live for Him. Then, our behavior changes. We tell the truth. We take responsibility. We work hard. We maintain commitments. We do not leave our spouses. All of these things are building blocks for healthy communities and prosperity and when these values spread throughout a community because people in that community have come to Christ and they are discipled and not just converted, then they will prosper in many ways. Yes, I do believe that.

All of those things are not the gospel. But, a change in lifestyle and behavior is to the result of the gospel and it would be foolish to say that those changes have no result on the quality of a person’s life and ultimately the life of a community.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.

There are over 35 comments on a post that has 4 sentences. Thats funny…

I appreciate your friendly response to my prideful, defensive one.

I ask that you forgive my pride. I dont know you very well, but I am a fan of your blog and have much enjoyed many things you have written in the blogosphere. I certainly know that there was no “attacking” going on… Maybe this is evidence as to why I shouldnt blog after a double shift!

I know you werent trying to “twist” my words, but it appeared that way because I thought it was clear that when I first started talking about “social action” we were talking pretty specifically about the health care issue and next thing I knew it had turned into this “Matt says caring for the poor isnt something the church should worry about.”

I’m certainly not trying to cause a false dichotomy. I’m just trying to emphasize that which is MOST important, making disciples. I’m not saying that they cant happen simultaneously, but I am saying that with an emphasis on making disciples the social part falls terribly short.

I don’t know if the “Church” can come up with a National Health Care Plan. Actually, I think it is impossible. Has the “Church” in America been able to come up with anything? But, Christians serving in government and health care can come up with a plan that is beneficial to everyone and works from the truth and wisdom that God gives. Christian scholars can provide insight into Christian principles that could guide these professionals. Christians in every field can do more to care for their fellow man and churches can encourage responsibility and stewardship on the part of their people. Also, wherever there is corruption, Christians in the field of public service can call for justice and righteousness to prevail. I doubt you would be against Christians being salt and light in their sphere of vocation.

I would caution you to not create a false dichotomy between “preaching the gospel” and doing good works. They do not have to take away from one another, but they can go together just like they did in Jesus’ ministry. Just because Christians are feeding and caring for the poor does not mean that they are not proclaiming the gospel in word. I see people say that a lot and I think that you’re either going to proclaim the gospel or you aren’t. I’ve never seen the task of caring for the poor be an impediment to sharing the gospel, so if people aren’t preaching Christ, there is likely another reason than the fact that they are caring for the poor. Us Evangelicals continue to react against the Social Gospel and seem to fear that caring for people’s physical needs will somehow serve as an impediment to proclaiming the gospel. I don’t see why that should be the case.

Matt, I apologize if you felt attacked. That was not my intention. Your words caused me to ask questions, which you answered. It’s just a discussion. No big deal. I have no interest in twisting anything. It’s just something that I’m interested in and was curious as to your position. I was confused about what you were saying and instead of staying confused I asked you for clarification. Thanks for engaging.
.-= Alan Cross´s last blog ..The Heavens Declare the Glory of God: Pictures from the Hubble Space Telescope =-.

Being salt and light has nothing to do with community prosperity. Realize that Jesus taught about being salt and light immediately after he talked about Christians being persecuted. It was in the context of persecution, not community prosperity that Jesus talked about his disciples being salt and light. Community prosperity does come directly from the church being salt and light. What does come from the church being salt and light is people get saved. Its funny how us Americans read something that Jesus says in the context of persecution and somehow we make it about community prosperity.

There was no community prosperity during the Great Dispersion. There was just a lot of Christians being killed and yet a lot of people becoming Christians…. Why? In the midst of persecution, they were being salt and light. What was the result? The ministry of reconciliation, not community prosperity. People were being saved and becoming a part of the body of Christ.

There are a lot of countries where there are Christians being salt and light and yet the countries and their communities are not prospering, but yet people are being saved. You line that I quoted at the beginning of this comment could only be said of someone living in the West. You, like us all, are more of a product of our culture than we would like to admit.

May God help us!