Comments on: People of the Book? http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/ Southern Baptist News & Opinion Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:56:36 +0000 hourly 1 By: Jeff Musgrave http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2732 Jeff Musgrave Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:09:49 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2732 Sallie, Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that question needs to be asked a lot of times before we open our mouth to argue, and I am one really good arguer (recovering). As believers, we need to be able to speak our peace about a subject in love and then leave the Holy Spirit to "set us straight" so to speak. I think this is what Paul was trying to get at in Philippians 3:15 and the surrounding text, "Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you." The problem with most of us is that we are so convinced we are "the mature one" that we don't listen long enough to let God tell us if we are the one who needs something revealed. <abbr><em><abbr><em>Jeff Musgraves last blog post..<a href="http://jeofurry.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/dealing-with-the-evil-question/" rel="nofollow">Dealing with the Evil Question</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Sallie,
Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that question needs to be asked a lot of times before we open our mouth to argue, and I am one really good arguer (recovering). As believers, we need to be able to speak our peace about a subject in love and then leave the Holy Spirit to “set us straight” so to speak.
I think this is what Paul was trying to get at in Philippians 3:15 and the surrounding text, “Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.”
The problem with most of us is that we are so convinced we are “the mature one” that we don’t listen long enough to let God tell us if we are the one who needs something revealed.

Jeff Musgraves last blog post..Dealing with the Evil Question

]]> By: Sallie http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2704 Sallie Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:25:34 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2704 I, too, agree with you hitting the nail on the head with the question of "what does it matter?" This past week I have heard more arguments than I care to admit about the actual date of Christ crucifixation. The problem with the arguments was that people (Christians) were so busy grumbling about it that they left out the most important detail: HE IS RISEN! How can we show non-christians that the most important detail is that HE IS RISEN when all we do is fight about days of the week? I was really sad about what I was seeing... Have a blessed week! Sallie <abbr><em><abbr><em>Sallies last blog post..<a href="http://www.mikeandsallie.com/sallie/index.blog?entry_id=1364777" rel="nofollow">The Essence of True Beauty</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> I, too, agree with you hitting the nail on the head with the question of “what does it matter?” This past week I have heard more arguments than I care to admit about the actual date of Christ crucifixation. The problem with the arguments was that people (Christians) were so busy grumbling about it that they left out the most important detail: HE IS RISEN! How can we show non-christians that the most important detail is that HE IS RISEN when all we do is fight about days of the week? I was really sad about what I was seeing…

Have a blessed week!
Sallie

Sallies last blog post..The Essence of True Beauty

]]> By: Jeff Musgrave http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2681 Jeff Musgrave Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:36:27 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2681 Olon, Thanks for your comments. I haven't had time to get or read Kovac's book, so I only have snippets of it from reports. I will be sure and check out the posts on your blog. You make an excellent point about testing everything and holding on to the good. My wife and I long ago decided not to do the Santa and Easter bunny stuff, even though we may have enjoyed it as kids. We didn't feel like we could afford to add confusion to the lives of our kids in a world that is increasingly hostile to Christianity and Truth in general. My generation (Gen X) and the generations that follow us have had an increasing battle to just hold on to absolute truth in the face of "absolute relativity." We still have fun during those holidays, but we have always explained to our kids that Christmas was made to celebrate Jesus Christ's birthday (even though we don't know the right day) and that Easter is about His resurrection. In fact, our kids don't say happy Easter. They tell people, "happy Resurrection Day," and believe me, it gets noticed. <abbr><em><abbr><em>Jeff Musgraves last blog post..<a href="http://jeofurry.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/a-collection-of-good-friday-thoughts/" rel="nofollow">A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Olon,
Thanks for your comments. I haven’t had time to get or read Kovac’s book, so I only have snippets of it from reports. I will be sure and check out the posts on your blog.
You make an excellent point about testing everything and holding on to the good. My wife and I long ago decided not to do the Santa and Easter bunny stuff, even though we may have enjoyed it as kids. We didn’t feel like we could afford to add confusion to the lives of our kids in a world that is increasingly hostile to Christianity and Truth in general. My generation (Gen X) and the generations that follow us have had an increasing battle to just hold on to absolute truth in the face of “absolute relativity.”
We still have fun during those holidays, but we have always explained to our kids that Christmas was made to celebrate Jesus Christ’s birthday (even though we don’t know the right day) and that Easter is about His resurrection. In fact, our kids don’t say happy Easter. They tell people, “happy Resurrection Day,” and believe me, it gets noticed.

Jeff Musgraves last blog post..A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts

]]> By: Olon Hyde http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2680 Olon Hyde Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:32:00 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2680 Jeff, I think this was a great post and that you hit the nail on the head when you asked, "What does it matter?" This question is of first importance when deciding whether Christians should celebrate Easter by hunting eggs or Christmas by giving present and putting up Christmas trees. I think the Bible (which is important if we truly are people of the book) speaks to this issue of what does it matter. "Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil " (1 Th 5:21-22, NIV). When answering the question "what does it matter?," we have to simultaneously answer the question "Is this ungodly?" This is where the task gets difficult. I too am a youth pastor and have struggled with telling my students about Easter, Christmas, Mardi Gras, etc. We tell them about all of these holidays. Sometimes it is easy--for example, it is easy for me to tell my students that they don't need to participate in Halloween. It's not so easy to tell them no to participate in "Easter." Part of the reason is that I have found memories as a child of hunting eggs. But when we get down to it, what do eggs have to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ? That is why I wrote a <a href="http://notdrjekyll.blogspot.com/2009/03/what-is-easter-anyway.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> recently that addresses this difficult topic. It's more difficult to tell people that hunting eggs is godless then it is to tell them dressing up like a witch is godless. I think that we don't follow Paul's advice in Thessalonians. We don't test everything and hold on to the good because the fact remains that if these practices are godless, should we really be celebrating them? You also mentioned Joe Kovacs' book entitled <i>Shocked by the Bible.</i> I have been writing a series of posts on this book at my <a href="www.notdrjekyll.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">blog.</a> He does bring out a lot of points concerning Christmas and Easter, but he also adds a lot of misinformation as well. And as a committed Southern Baptist and a man of the book, I think we should be asking these difficult questions and living obediently even if it is not fun or popular. <abbr><em><abbr><em>Olon Hydes last blog post..<a href="http://notdrjekyll.blogspot.com/2009/04/let-there-be-sex-shocked-by-bible.html" rel="nofollow">Let there be sex: Shocked by the Bible, Chapter 7</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Jeff,
I think this was a great post and that you hit the nail on the head when you asked, “What does it matter?” This question is of first importance when deciding whether Christians should celebrate Easter by hunting eggs or Christmas by giving present and putting up Christmas trees. I think the Bible (which is important if we truly are people of the book) speaks to this issue of what does it matter. “Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil ” (1 Th 5:21-22, NIV). When answering the question “what does it matter?,” we have to simultaneously answer the question “Is this ungodly?” This is where the task gets difficult.

I too am a youth pastor and have struggled with telling my students about Easter, Christmas, Mardi Gras, etc. We tell them about all of these holidays. Sometimes it is easy–for example, it is easy for me to tell my students that they don’t need to participate in Halloween. It’s not so easy to tell them no to participate in “Easter.” Part of the reason is that I have found memories as a child of hunting eggs. But when we get down to it, what do eggs have to do with the resurrection of Jesus Christ? That is why I wrote a post recently that addresses this difficult topic. It’s more difficult to tell people that hunting eggs is godless then it is to tell them dressing up like a witch is godless. I think that we don’t follow Paul’s advice in Thessalonians. We don’t test everything and hold on to the good because the fact remains that if these practices are godless, should we really be celebrating them?

You also mentioned Joe Kovacs’ book entitled Shocked by the Bible. I have been writing a series of posts on this book at my blog. He does bring out a lot of points concerning Christmas and Easter, but he also adds a lot of misinformation as well. And as a committed Southern Baptist and a man of the book, I think we should be asking these difficult questions and living obediently even if it is not fun or popular.

Olon Hydes last blog post..Let there be sex: Shocked by the Bible, Chapter 7

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2669 Dr. James Willingham Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:13:24 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2669 Dear Jeff: I can feel your frustration. Within the past 2 yrs. I saw figures of Joseph, Mary, the Baby Jesus, Manger, animals, the shepherds, wisemen, displayed on the communion table all during the worship service. It made me feel sick. It also reminded me of a sermon by Dr. Rufus Crozier (President of St.Louis Bap. College when I was there in 1959-60 & 61) in a chapel serice on the subject, "The Golden Calf Complex." He had preached in church in hich they had a picture of Jesus hanging on the wall behind where the pulpit would have been (they had a divided chancel) and had an open Bible on the communion table flanked with two candles. He suggested in his driest wit that that church needed to replace the picture with a carving of a crucified Christ on a cross, get rid of the Bible, add 5 more candles, put the elements on the communion table, put the preacher behind it in a robe holding up the elements, etc. You know where he suggested they were going. Such things led to the Reformation, and an event like that is a disruption as well as a recovery effort. People love their idols and hate to be torn from them. An Awakening is, I think, the best way to turn people from such things. Mordecai Fowler Ham (the evangelist who preached the revival in Charlotte in which Billy Graham was converted) preached a revival in Burlington, NC early in the 20th cent. I have heard that for 2 yrs. after that revival the police dept. did not have a single crime to handle. One of my professors at St. Louis Bap. Coll., Dr. W. L. Muncey, had been converted in Ark. in the 1800s. He said the county in which he was born and born again had an awakening (I think he called it a revival) and the result was that for 10 yrs. the county grand jury did not have a single crime to come before it. That revival was like the Welsh Revival of 1904 in 60,000+? were converted, crimes, drunkness, illegitimate births, etc. declined. Policemen and judges received white gloves, indicating that they had little problems. Their biggest responsiblity was directing traffic at the meetings and providing singing groups for the same. The First and Second Great Awakenings and the beginnings of the Great Century of Missions as Kenneth Scott Latourette called it were of the same nature. I dare say that the verses which Jonathan Edwards listed in his Humble Attempt were pleaded by multitudes which God was pleased to answer and whch changed society, etc. I can remember, when we did not lock our doors in Arkansas...not even at night. Before I left there in 1955 at the age of 14, my grandfather had begun to lock his door. Today, I preached in a Presbyterian church where they had to install a security system as the burglars had kicked the doors in, whenever they wanted to rob it. The only thing that will guarantee a civilization worth the name of such is an awakening, a revival, a visitation of God, a coming down of Heaven to earth, where the hard, cruel, lustful, greedy, hateful, murderous hearts are melted down and replaced with a nature that loves God, loves righteousness, etc. I could say more, but the main thing is we must wrestle and strive together, even agonize in prayer for such a blessing for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ and the good of souls. Now the theology of such events is really Sovereign Grace, the TULIP doctrines along with predestination and reprobation preached as invitations to trust God, to take Him on His terms. Let us plead Isa.11:9 & Hab.2:14 along with the many other promises that Jonathan Edwards listed in his Humble Attempt which were pleaded by many for such visitations across two hundred yrs. God have mercy upon us, if we fail to so pray. Dear Jeff: I can feel your frustration. Within the past 2 yrs. I saw figures of Joseph, Mary, the Baby Jesus, Manger, animals, the shepherds, wisemen, displayed on the communion table all during the worship service. It made me feel sick. It also reminded me of a sermon by Dr. Rufus Crozier (President of St.Louis Bap. College when I was there in 1959-60 & 61) in a chapel serice on the subject, “The Golden Calf Complex.” He had preached in church in hich they had a picture of Jesus hanging on the wall behind where the pulpit would have been (they had a divided chancel) and had an open Bible on the communion table flanked with two candles. He suggested in his driest wit that that church needed to replace the picture with a carving of a crucified Christ on a cross, get rid of the Bible, add 5 more candles, put the elements on the communion table, put the preacher behind it in a robe holding up the elements, etc. You know where he suggested they were going. Such things led to the Reformation, and an event like that is a disruption as well as a recovery effort. People love their idols and hate to be torn from them. An Awakening is, I think, the best way to turn people from such things. Mordecai Fowler Ham (the evangelist who preached the revival in Charlotte in which Billy Graham was converted) preached a revival in Burlington, NC early in the 20th cent. I have heard that for 2 yrs. after that revival the police dept. did not have a single crime to handle. One of my professors at St. Louis Bap. Coll., Dr. W. L. Muncey, had been converted in Ark. in the 1800s. He said the county in which he was born and born again had an awakening (I think he called it a revival) and the result was that for 10 yrs. the county grand jury did not have a single crime to come before it. That revival was like the Welsh Revival of 1904 in 60,000+? were converted, crimes, drunkness, illegitimate births, etc. declined. Policemen and judges received white gloves, indicating that they had little problems. Their biggest responsiblity was directing traffic at the meetings and providing singing groups for the same. The First and Second Great Awakenings and the beginnings of the Great Century of Missions as Kenneth Scott Latourette called it were of the same nature. I dare say that the verses which Jonathan Edwards listed in his Humble Attempt were pleaded by multitudes which God was pleased to answer and whch changed society, etc. I can remember, when we did not lock our doors in Arkansas…not even at night. Before I left there in 1955 at the age of 14, my grandfather had begun to lock his door. Today, I preached in a Presbyterian church where they had to install a security system as the burglars had kicked the doors in, whenever they wanted to rob it. The only thing that will guarantee a civilization worth the name of such is an awakening, a revival, a visitation of God, a coming down of Heaven to earth, where the hard, cruel, lustful, greedy, hateful, murderous hearts are melted down and replaced with a nature that loves God, loves righteousness, etc. I could say more, but the main thing is we must wrestle and strive together, even agonize in prayer for such a blessing for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ and the good of souls. Now the theology of such events is really Sovereign Grace, the TULIP doctrines along with predestination and reprobation preached as invitations to trust God, to take Him on His terms. Let us plead Isa.11:9 & Hab.2:14 along with the many other promises that Jonathan Edwards listed in his Humble Attempt which were pleaded by many for such visitations across two hundred yrs. God have mercy upon us, if we fail to so pray.

]]> By: Jeff Musgrave http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2655 Jeff Musgrave Sun, 12 Apr 2009 03:40:45 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2655 Dr. Willingham, I completely agree with you and that is the spirit of the message I intended from the post. I am not trying to be a killjoy in any way. My main objective in detailing the "pagan additions" to the holidays that most American celebrate and enter into without a second thought was to point to our own blind spots regarding essentials and non-essentials. I know far too many SBC folks who teach that most Catholics are really pagan because of all of the "extra" things they add to their Christianity, when many of those added things are more along the same vein as the Christmas trees that we all love so much. No one that I am aware of is out there suggesting that a Christian family who is following a practice that the Bible openly condemns in Jeremiah is losing their faith, but I have heard the cries of those who condemn brothers and sisters in the Lord for other "pagan additions." I agree with you that we need a firmer grasp of what the essentials of the faith truly are so that we can stop going to war over differences that don't amount to anything at all in the final picture. <abbr><em><abbr><em>Jeff Musgraves last blog post..<a href="http://jeofurry.wordpress.com/2009/04/10/a-collection-of-good-friday-thoughts/" rel="nofollow">A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Dr. Willingham,
I completely agree with you and that is the spirit of the message I intended from the post. I am not trying to be a killjoy in any way. My main objective in detailing the “pagan additions” to the holidays that most American celebrate and enter into without a second thought was to point to our own blind spots regarding essentials and non-essentials.
I know far too many SBC folks who teach that most Catholics are really pagan because of all of the “extra” things they add to their Christianity, when many of those added things are more along the same vein as the Christmas trees that we all love so much. No one that I am aware of is out there suggesting that a Christian family who is following a practice that the Bible openly condemns in Jeremiah is losing their faith, but I have heard the cries of those who condemn brothers and sisters in the Lord for other “pagan additions.”
I agree with you that we need a firmer grasp of what the essentials of the faith truly are so that we can stop going to war over differences that don’t amount to anything at all in the final picture.

Jeff Musgraves last blog post..A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2654 Dr. James Willingham Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:51:49 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2654 Dear Brother Jeff: Having gone through this matter of what is or is not permitted many years ago, I feel like I can speak to it to some degree - although what I have to say might not satisfy many. As one fellow said long ago about some other issue along this line, "I must have been right at one time or another, because I have been for it, against it, or neutral. Some of our problems come from a variety of sources. Christmas trees, etc., are geneally a German and English cultural practice. Luther and Lutherans are generally very accepting of such practices. The English, except for the Puritans, also have a culture oriented to it. Spurgeon was open to the matter. To bring joy and fun into the lives of children is not necessarily an evil - especially if one stresses the meaning of the season as it relates to the Lord Jesus Christ. I will say more in a later missive, but a charitable disposition toward differences can be helpful, whereas demanding on the right way at all times and to the exclusion of all else can be quite distracting - especially if done in a most uncharitable spirit. This is not to sell our Lord short and His way as the only way, but thre is something to be said for unity in the essentials, etc. <abbr><em><abbr><em>Dr. James Willinghams last blog post..<a href="http://thirdgreatawakeningcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/climax-of-reformation.html" rel="nofollow">The Climax of the Reformation</a></em></abbr></abbr></em> Dear Brother Jeff: Having gone through this matter of what is or is not permitted many years ago, I feel like I can speak to it to some degree – although what I have to say might not satisfy many. As one fellow said long ago about some other issue along this line, “I must have been right at one time or another, because I have been for it, against it, or neutral. Some of our problems come from a variety of sources. Christmas trees, etc., are geneally a German and English cultural practice. Luther and Lutherans are generally very accepting of such practices. The English, except for the Puritans, also have a culture oriented to it. Spurgeon was open to the matter. To bring joy and fun into the lives of children is not necessarily an evil – especially if one stresses the meaning of the season as it relates to the Lord Jesus Christ. I will say more in a later missive, but a charitable disposition toward differences can be helpful, whereas demanding on the right way at all times and to the exclusion of all else can be quite distracting – especially if done in a most uncharitable spirit. This is not to sell our Lord short and His way as the only way, but thre is something to be said for unity in the essentials, etc.

Dr. James Willinghams last blog post..The Climax of the Reformation

]]> By: A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts « Jeofurry’s Jesus Journey http://sbcvoices.com/people-of-the-book/#comment-2641 A Collection of Good Friday Thoughts « Jeofurry’s Jesus Journey Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:50:25 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1290#comment-2641 [...] Friday service at our church.  Also, I have contributed a new post over at SBC Voices about the cultural traditions of Easter and Christmas versus the biblical example of each. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Odds and EndsGood Friday, good griefFine Friday: [...] [...] Friday service at our church.  Also, I have contributed a new post over at SBC Voices about the cultural traditions of Easter and Christmas versus the biblical example of each. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Odds and EndsGood Friday, good griefFine Friday: [...]

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