This post is a response to “We Have Reached A Tipping Point” by Dr. Alvin Reid as posted (here, here, here, & here).
WE should not overlook this one fact – the SBC has a history of self correction. It’s never been pretty, and it’s often been too late. But as a denomination we’ve always found a way to change. For example:
- Missionary slave holders – Really?
- Denominational debts – Never a good plan.
- Unbelievers training future pastors – Duh?
There are many more examples, but the “SBC is evil” line is really old news. This post is not about the effects of the Fall on religious organizations. Let’s agree, the message of the cross does not commend our collective moral character. I’m not on the payroll so I won’t pretend that the SBC is without sin. AND I don’t have a vendetta so I won’t pretend that the SBC is all bad.
And all God’s bloggers said AMEN . . .
Now the amazing thing – the SBC keeps self-correcting. In each case above, a new generation righted the ship. With God’s grace, a sinful group of believers somehow carried forward the mission of Jesus. Despite their cultural hangovers and denominational bloat, they served Christ their time. We know that God works through sinful denominations in the same way he works through sinful people. But that work always includes change.
All this brings up real THE question. Will our generation be able to do the same? Can we see our problems and bring real change?
I really appreciate the SBCers who are calling for self correction. Some easy examples are Ed Stetzer at the 2007 SBC and Michael Spencer’s recent SBC blogging. Now, I’ll add Alvin Reid to the list after his SBC tipping point post. {yes I still ? the SBC}
I’m On Board, But What Now?
I really do want to rally around the Great Commission – even if they insist on spinning it as a RESURGENCE. I want to lead my church to take the Gospel to the nations & my neighborhood – even if they like to call that MISSIONAL. I want to see some amputation when it comes to denominational overhead – even if still insist that CP = MISSIONS.
So, I printed three copies of Dr. Reid’s post and walked down for staff meeting at church. As we talked, our nodding heads began to turn from side-to-side. The article somehow stopped short of asking the obvious questions.
I appreciate Dr. Reid’s diagnosis. Things are so bad we can fake it anymore. We want to turn it around, but nothing is working. We need change, we need change.
Amen . . . Yes We Can . . . Yes We Can . . . {this sounds familiar, maybe something I saw on YouTube}
My objection: For all this talk about “enough talk” I’m not sure Dr. Reid went far engouh. You can draw your own conclusions, but saying “somehting’s gotta give” is not a new. Saying “go to the SBC this summer” is not new. Saying “we need to reach more people” is not new. Saying “support your SBC leaders” is not new. Saying “we need doctrinal common ground” is not new.
Dr. Kummeropolis Asks The Obvious Questions
Let me drop a ® on something not-so profound. This conversation fails to see or evaluate it’s own assumptions. Sometimes things break, and the best option is to start fresh. So why not ask the real questions:
- If BIG denominational machines don’t work, what other models of Gospel cooperation are working?
- If BIG tent confessions of faith don’t offer real theological unity in our fragmented culture, what models of consensus will work?
- “If the average Southern Baptist knew how every penny of their money was being spent, they too would want a revolution.” What would it take to bring that kind of transparency? Why send widows $ out the window?
Comments are open. Feel free to change my mind or call me names. Just be kind enough to correct my typos.
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Some more good questions. I was at breakfast this morning with a more conservative SBC pastor and his question was “What will the SBC look like after the changes happen?”
I agree that changes need to occur, but what will the finished product look like, at least in rough over view terms.
Tom Bryants last blog post..Monday at FBC, Osprey!
Tony,
What Alvin Reid, Danny Akin, Nathan Finn, etc. are saying is important because we are just now getting a consensus that things need to be changed. In 2005-2006 when the blogging revolution started, SBC leadership and denominational workers did not have the courage to say that things needed to be changed. They hid behind bloggers who were willing to say what they wanted to say but were too afraid to say. I saw this happen repeatedly and could tell you detailed stories. I am encouraged because now SBC leadership is really beginning to step up and say that things need to be different. We don’t just need to have a tour bus go across the country with “Yes we can” evangelism. We don’t just need to keep doing what we have been doing and try harder. Another denominational program will not save the day. There is no silver bullet that will solve all. What was being whispered in back hallways has now made its way into the public sphere and is no longer being opposed, but rather, is being propogated by leadership. That is a far cry from Bobby Welch castigating bloggers in Greensboro in 2006 for complaining about leadership.
So where do we go from here? Good question. You are right to say that Dr. Reid did not go far enough, but he went as far as he needed to to get the rest of us asking, “What next?” That answer will be found locally more than it will be found in denominational leadership. Our state conventions and national entities DO NOT have the answer and they are not going to – ever, because the answer to what ails us requires the dismantleing of the bureaucracy and the bureacracy will never dismantle itself. If the SBC is to continue to be effective, it is going to happen when a million individuals, churches, pastors, and leaders step up and do what they are supposed to be doing – what Scripture commands. Leadership will emerge as some people do it better than others, but it will be the leadership of practitioners who choose to stay in their place of service instead of taking the job with NAMB or the state convention. Because of the internet and networking, local churches are positioned to lead the way. The question is, “Will we?” It will soon become understandable that the best way to spread the gospel across the planet WILL NOT necessarily be through CP giving (unless the powers that be streamline their bloated bureaucracy), but instead, it will be through the leadership of innovative churches as they form missional networks that give room for others to join in with what they are initiating.
Here’s an example: In 2006, Alabama Baptists (my state) spent over $13 million on 111 employees that work at the Baptist Building or through adjoining ministries. I am not saying that they do not work very hard or that they do not do good things or that they are spending money unethically. I am also not trying to pick on Alabama. We have a good state convention, relatively speaking, and I know a lot of people who work there – they are good people. But, having a good state convention with good people is not enough anymore. $13 million and 111 employees for a state with a population of 4 million people, with over 80 local associations (all with staff and budgets) and over 3,000 local churches (most with staff and budgets) makes no sense. You are talking about redundancy on every level. Altogether, in 2006 over $43 million was given by Alabama Baptists to the CP with over $25 million staying in state. And, I wish that I could say that the other $18 million went to missions, but it did not. Half of what goes to the IMB stays stateside in administrative expenses as well. NAMB has its own issues.
My point in all of this is not to criticize anyone. It is just to say that the work of local and global missions can be done differently and people are beginning to realize that. Realizing this does not make us disloyal to the SBC. Alabama could put a state missionary in 8 districts in the state with an administrative assistant and work out of office space of a large church (we have enough of them). They could then do all state ministries through coordinating work with local associations and local churches. How much more effective would we be? Identify the churches that are doing things well in different areas and help them lead the way in their region. Even theological education could be done much cheaper and more effectively than it is currently being done if we would look at it differently. We could place professors as theologians in residence in local churches in larger cities and they can serve the church as well as the academy. Have churches and associations team together to provide local church based theological education complete with classes, seminars, practicuum, and on-line interaction. The training returns to the church, students are not uprooted from their context, or if they are, they would interface with the local church more directly, and millions of dollars are saved. Many more people would be trained for the ministry and there would be a place of service for a much larger number of professors. The final effect would be that our churches would be the place that theological development and education takes place. How much stronger would we all be? All of this could be overseen with standards for accrediting purposes.
There are many creative ideas like this, but it does not benefit those who make the decisions to dismantle what we have to be more effective so we will see great decline before we make the hard decisions. We were “successful” because we were tied to a culture that supported us. In post-Christendom, that culture is going the other way and our “success” is going with it. This is why we don’t know what to do. Throughout the decline, everyone will be agreed that we need to change, but few will have the courage to make the tough decisions until it is too late. By then, the SBC will have lost a generation and thousands upon thousands of churches will have either faded away or will be totally ineffective (see Frank Page’s prediction). We will be half the size we are now and we will still struggle to do the hard things that are needed because they will be too painful. But, other things will spring up because people are already making the decision to be effective missionally rather than climbing a denominational ladder. Scripture and our missional impulse is guiding us here. I wish that all of this could happen within the SBC as it is presently known, and on some levels it can. We just need to ask, is 20% effectiveness with our missions dollars and energy satisfactory when we could have 80% effectiveness if we just worked a different way? Is it okay to put money into a system just because it does some good and because we are loyal to the system? Is it okay to say that it is the best thing going because everything else is so bad and we don’t have the courage or creativity to do it better? I don’t think so. I am not anti-institutional. Institutions are good and they are needed. But, we have to make sure that they are as effective as possible because to fulfill the Great Commission, the institution must serve the mission or it is just in the way. We need to get a bit more fierce in making sure that happens.
Sorry for the long comment, but you asked.
Tony, I believe, for things to change, we have to change. And for us to change, we have to be on our knees seeking God’s mind and following His direction–not asking Him to rubberstamp ours. Until bloggers, preachers, pewsitters, denominational leaders and naysayers, and any others unlisted begin to spend more time on our knees than typing, criticizing and pointing fingers, we will remain the same–no matter what great ideas some collective group comes up with. Prayer. That’s what will make the difference. God will make the difference when His people begin to trust Him rather than themselves to right the ship. selahV
selahVs last blog post..MONDAY MOURNING
Alan,
“Yes We Can” evangelism.. Thats hilarious. I cant stop laughing, although I know it is a serious topic.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..The Courtship Path…to the Love of Your Life
I was actually trying to remember Bobby Welch’s bus tour theme from a few years ago when I said that. It was “Everyone Can,” not “Yes We Can”, but I juxtaposed the two in my mind and basically put Obama’s theme on Bobby Welch’s bus. Now, that is funny! Just goes to show that in a world saturated by slogans, advertising, and catch-phrases, it is easy for us to confuse all of it into one big stew that we just automatically ignore.
Alan Crosss last blog post..Has the SBC Reached a Tipping Point? Toward a Southern Missiology, Part 3
Alan,
You solution for Alabama sounds very much like the regionalization plan that the Dakota Baptist Convention is currently hashing its way through. I have heard that other state conventions are working on implementing it as well. We no longer have a “state office” in a single location. The main office is the one that the state convention president works out of and the other state staff are spread out through the rest of North and South Dakota to be closer to the field. It is yet to be seen how effective this will be and it didn’t come about without some headaches in any case. I can picture the problems that might come in a state with an established “we have always done it this way” type of system in the state office. But I do think it holds a lot of promise on cutting down in wasted overhead and admin expenses and even extra travel expenses.
Jeff Ms last blog post..A Little Spring in My Step
Tony,
You wrote, “All this brings up real THE question. Will our generation be able to do the same? Can we see our problems and bring real change?”
I think this is the critical question. We have to determine the problem before we can figure out how to fix it. For those who are predicting the demise of the SBC, what problem in the SBC is going to cause this?
It seems to me we have a whole lot of people screaming that the boat is sinking and nobody trying to find the leak. Not only that, but people are pointing the finger of blame at the crew rather than coming along side them to help save the ship. I know, I know…I used a lot of metiphorical language there. But we can’t fix the leak in the SBC until we determine what the problems with it are, and blaming the SBC leadership is not motivating them to change either. I put some more of my thoughts about this in writing in my last post.
But I also think you are right that Dr. Reid didn’t go far enough. He may have diagnosed the problem, but what is he doing to fix it. I don’t just want my doctor to tell me I am sick, I also want him to tell me how to get better. Let’s start diagnosing the problem(s) with the SBC so we can begin to come up with the prognosis.
Olon Hydes last blog post..Looking Down at Catholics
Jeff,
I’ve heard about that plan and it makes perfect sense out West where you have large geographical distances between cities and smaller populations. But, I think that it would make even more sense in the East and the South where you have larger populations and more churches. Sure, there are headaches, but I’d rather have a headache and save $10 million than spend the money and have fewer headaches. Suffering for the gospel is biblical. Plus, we have headaches anyway. We might as well have the right ones. I’ll be interested to see how it works in the Dakotas and I hope that those ideas gain traction.
Alan Crosss last blog post..Has the SBC Reached a Tipping Point? Toward a Southern Missiology, Part 3
@Alan:
Thanks for you comment. I really appreciate you taking the time to interact with these issues. I think you might have been saying my point better than I did. When “change” becomes concrete it gets very painful. I think that will be true for every church, association, state convention or incarnation of the SBC.
@selahV:
I completely agree – and I’m asking God to make Gospel changes more obvious in my heart and more effective in reaching more of my neighbors. Prayer should not be reduced to a denominational emphasis, but any denomination that doesn’t make it an emphasis is finished.
@Brother Hyde:
From what I know about Dr. Reid (a few emails and one long phone call) he is sincere and trying to get his students passionate about the Gospel down at SEBTS.
Let me clarify. Dr. Reid is solid and more radical than me. I just want him to be more radical and push us over the tipping point.
May I put in a word for Bobby Welch? There are many ways to lead people to Jesus, not just your way, not just his way, not just my way. But if someone is faithfully presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ, why make fun of them? I think Welch’s basic “denominational program” was that we should all tell more people about Jesus. It’s difficult for me to criticize that.
I don’t personally know Bobby Welch. But I praise God for his FAITH program, his soul winning bus tour, and his love of lost souls. May the rest of us love those that are going to Hell, half as much as Bobby Welch does.
David R. Brumbelow
No one is making fun of Bobby Welch, David. He does what God has led him to do and he has seen success. My point is that there is not just one program or emphasis that will suddenly turn things around. I did not mention his goal of seeing a million baptisms in 2006 that went along with his bus tour. I think that that was a great goal, but the days of goals, programs, and slogans are over. People don’t respond to them anymore because they just see it as one more thing. We must have a movement of the Spirit like SelahV was saying and that happens when we humble ourselves and cry out to God. I’m not saying that Bobby Welch did not do that, but clearly, his leadership did not cause the rest of us to do that and maybe that is our fault. No matter whose fault it was, it did not happen.
Alan Crosss last blog post..Has the SBC Reached a Tipping Point? Toward a Southern Missiology, Part 3
Alan,
The word I have heard from our state staff is that other state conventions are watching closely and some are planning on experimenting with the regionalization model. The biggest headaches came from the executive board giving the model the green light about two months before the state convention and then “announcing” it to the churches as a done deal. To this day, I think they would have had a lot less grief and probably a lot more initial support if they had just waited those two months and allowed the churches to have input and ownership on the front end. After that bump in the road, there has been a lot of good that has come out of it already.
Jeff Ms last blog post..Just Do It
Interesting. So, the bump in the road came from the centralized system making a top-down decision for everyone without allowing input from the participants? Shocking. I am glad for the changes, though, and am also glad to hear that things improved once they got past the initial stages. I hope that it catches on.
Alan Crosss last blog post..Has the SBC Reached a Tipping Point? Toward a Southern Missiology, Part 3
Yeah, the decision was made by the executive board, which is made up of representatives that the churches elect. But it did create quite a stir at the annual meeting when it was realized that the matter was already decided and the discussion about it was essentially a Q and A on how it would happen.
Jeff Musgraves last blog post..Just Do It
Hi Tony:
Thanks for adding to the growing discussion. You are exactly right, I did not go far enough. I did not into to do so. I am not wise enough to know all the answers to the questions. I am simply trying to articulate what seems to be a consensus about what some of the key questions are. And I think at that point there is an obvious consensus.
What I am praying for is a coalition of leaders (not just by position or title but by conviction and wisdom) to develop who can articulate a vision for the future. I am confident that is happening.
As I said in my article, I may be wrong. But the response so far demonstrates I am at least right about the fact that we have tipped. I am not very original; I am not likely to be the one to articulate what must happen next. But, to go back to Gladwell’s Tipping Point again, I am very much a connector, and want to use what little influence God has given me to refocus on the Great Commission for this time in history. And judging from the response here and elsewhere so far, there are many who are ready to change. However, to comment a bit on the above discussion, I believe the change will include adding without subtracting. We need not jettison the best of our past, including tools (FAITH evangelism, e.g.) that can yet be effective in some contexts. But we must add to our attractional witness a missional posture if we will reach a lost America. Having “Samaritan night” once a year is not the only or the best way to reach the Samaritans of our time.
Let us move forward with humility and GREAT dependence on our great God. Let us seek to talk to each other about how we can make changes, even deep and painful ones, for the sake of the gospel and the glory of God.
alvin reids last blog post..Institution to Movement
Dr. Reid,
Thanks for your comments. I think you’ve done a great job raising the issues to a new level. I am encouraged that so many are responding positively to your post. I truly respect contribution with this post.
But when I am still cautious about the outcome. When the conversation turns to specifics, will the desire for change be strong enough?
I would add that I just posted the first of two articles related specifically to evangelism from my new book at alvinreid.com.
alvin reids last blog post..Toward a Great Commission Resurgence: Convergent Evangelism, Part One
I get what Dr. Reid is saying about adding without subtracting. I agree with him when it comes to the things that we do that are effective. That position also makes sense on the level of not rocking the boat too much for those of us who are already in the SBC. It is easy to add stuff as long as you don’t take things away that people are used to. Perhaps that is possible on many levels and it would take some time to think about what stays and what just has to go. But, the reason that many people want to start churches instead of transitioning existing churches is because people want to hold on to what they already have. Rarely do you see a situation where a church truly transitions to become effective missionally, although it does happen. I think that it would be very difficult with an organization the size of the SBC.
My concern when it comes to the SBC is that we string together half-measures that have some effectiveness in the short term but primarily satisfy the people that we already have who are giving to support the mission. We should not be the target group. Until we reposition ourselves to exist for God and others, a Great Commission Resurgence will be something that is done in name only and it will eventually fail. A true missional lifestyle means that we start as disciples of Christ. If we are a disciple of Jesus, our concern is not for ourselves. Yes, keep what is effective and working. No doubt about that. But the willingness to see things differently and sacrifice our own lives must accompany any structural changes.
I have no doubt that Dr. Reid, Tony, and everyone here agrees with that. I just wanted to clarify that change for the sake of change is a dangerous as staying the same. A heart change, followed by structural change to assist the mission is what is required. I’m praying for it.
Alan Crosss last blog post..The Full Meaning of Holiness – It Might Be Different From What You Think
Sometimes it just seems like we have a bunch of people running around being the chief but not willing to be a servant leader. I heard a quote yesterday: “We don’t need a bunch of leaders serving… we need a bunch of servants leading.”
I think it fits a lot of our problems within the SBC. The problem we will always have with leaders serving is that they all think everything should be done their way and so will always be busy trying to make everyone conform to that rather than doing any actual serving.
We do have to change on many fronts but I think the most important part is getting our people trained properly as lay leaders who actually study the Word and know what they are talking about.
For one, lifeway can stop trying to cram whole lessons of theology into one sunday school lesson. Why do we have to cover a topic in one week? Sometimes..oftentimes… a portion of scripture really needs a few weeks studying but yet we think someone knows it just because they had a sunday school lesson on it.
It’s terrifying to me that we try and take our Savior to a lost and dying world but yet so many of us don’t have the faith to believe that He can actually do anything for us.
I’m not sure we can change and make a difference but I’d like to believe its possible. Changes, no matter what they are, though, won’t make a difference if we don’t know what we really believe and why.
In Christ,
Sallie
Sallies last blog post..Health and Healing Service
Sallie,
I think you made some really great points.
“We do have to change on many fronts but I think the most important part is getting our people trained properly as lay leaders who actually study the Word and know what they are talking about.
For one, lifeway can stop trying to cram whole lessons of theology into one sunday school lesson. Why do we have to cover a topic in one week? Sometimes..oftentimes… a portion of scripture really needs a few weeks studying but yet we think someone knows it just because they had a sunday school lesson on it. “
Your first point is absolutely spot on and as a pastor I speak this from my heart. The greatest testimony to my ministry is first whether the church survives if I leave abrubtly (like dying for example) and second if the church remains healthy in my absence. If those two things can take place without me, then I have done my job. My job is not to do all the ministry of the church; my job is to equip the members to go out and do the ministry of the church.
As far as your second point, this is something we have to teach ourselves. I have taught the discipleship class Worship believers experiencing God two times now. The problem with this study is it is designed for six weeks. The first time I taught it, it took eight weeks (1 hour sessions). The second time took 9 weeks. So it takes “ministers of education” involved in the lives of the Sunday School teachers trainging them to better teach and that everyone is on the same page (for example, lets take two weeks on this lesson instead of one).
Olon Hydes last blog post..Looking Down at Catholics
Why put in the effort to fix the SBC when their are other great programs (like Acts29 for example) that are using money well and actively reaching the lost? I’m not trying to be trite, this is a real question that I’m trying to answer for myself
tims last blog post..Dr. King, Race and the Gospel
Hi Tony.
I think Dr. Akin just made the point.
alvin reids last blog post..Amen to Akin-Axioms of a GCR