Denny Burk has written a post about some concerns about the New Hate Crimes Bill. He sites a Baptist Press article written on the issue.
Here is a quote that puts this bill into perspective:
‘The measure, combined with existing law, could expose to prosecution Christians and others who proclaim the Bible’s teaching that homosexual behavior and other sexual relations outside marriage are sinful. For example, if a person commits a violent act based on a victim’s “sexual orientation” after hearing biblical teaching on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, the preacher or teacher could be open to a charge of inducing the person to commit the crime, some foes say.’
{ 106 comments }
Are Calvinists protected?
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..God gave us "wine to gladden the human heart" (Psalm 104:15 NRSV) =-.
This is very concerning and just another sign that our nation is heading down the road of Big Brother and persecution of Christians, especially the Christians that have the backbone to stand on the truth of God’s Word.
David
hopefully ministers, teachers, etc., are already making it a habit to discuss non-violence along with these volatile issues. if a preacher speaks against abortion or gay rights, for example, i think the preacher is obligated to tell the congregation that the church should still reach out to gays & abortion advocates with love, and that the wrong thing for the church to do is act violently or cruelly to these people. we were in fact no better when we were lost, & only know better now by the transforming & renewing power of the spirit of God.
in other words, there will probably be some obligatory things that preachers must say to “get off the hook,” so speak, if someone acts violently or innappropriately; and, these hypothetical, obligatory additions are probably a wise move even now.
good discussion
.-= mike´s last blog ..acoustic tribute: dani wilde =-.
I’m not sure that we will come under criminal threat for our preaching (at least not anytime soon). However, I think it is very possible that within the next 10 years or so, we will lose our tax exempt status for our stand against homosexuality, much like Bob Jones lost their status for their segregationist stance a couple of decades ago.
I could easily see the government saying that if we continue to “discriminate” (be hateful, homophobic, etc) then we have no right to get privileged tax status.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Chapman, Akin Et Al: A Pleasing Dissension in the SBC =-.
Here’s another quote:
# On November 7, 2008 in Newton, NC the home of openly gay Melvin Whistlehunt was destroyed by arsonists. Investigators found homophobic graffiti spray painted on the back of the house.[160]
# On November 14, 2008, a 22 year old transgender woman, Lateisha Green, was shot and killed by Dwight DeLee in Syracuse, NY because he thought she was gay.[161] Local news media reported the incident with her legal name, Moses “Teish” Cannon.[162] DeLee was convicted of first-degree manslaughter as a hate crime on July 17, 2009 and faces up 25 years in prison. This was only the second time in the nation’s history that a person was prosecuted for hate crime against a transgender person.[163]
# On December 7, 2008 Romel Sucuzhanya, a 31 year old straight Ecuadorean and his brother Jose, were attacked on a Brooklyn, New York street for appearing to be gay and for being Latino; they were walking arm-in-arm, which is normal for brothers in their culture. Romel later died from his injuries.[164]
# On December 12, 2008 in Richmond, California a 28 year old lesbian was kidnapped and gang raped by four men who made homophobic remarks during the attack.[165]
# On December 27, 2008 in Dayton, Ohio 24 year old Nathan Runkle was brutally assaulted outside a gay nightclub.[166]
# On February 15, 2009 in New York City Efosa Agbontaen and Branden McGillvery-Dummett were attacked by four young men with glass bottles and box cutters who used anti-gay slurs during the attack. Agbontaen and McGillvery-Dummett both required emergency room treatment for their injuries.[167]
# On February 18, 2009 two men were arrested in Stroudsburg, PA for the stabbing death of gay veteran Michael Goucher.[168]
# On March 1, 2009 in Galveston, Texas three men entered Roberts Lafitte bar and attacked patrons with rocks. One of the victims, Marc Bosaw, was sent to the emergency room to have twelve staples in his head.[169]
# On March 14, 2009 a gay couple leaving a concert in Newark, New Jersey were attacked by 15 teens. Josh Kehoe and Bobby Daniel Caldwell were called “faggots” and beaten. Caldwell suffered a broken jaw.[170]
# On March 23, 2009 in Seaside, Oregon two gay men were attacked and left lying unconscious on a local beach. The men regained consciousness and were treated at a nearby hospital.[171]
# On Monday, April 6, 2009, Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11 year old boy in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord after being bullied all school year by his peers. His peers said he “acted feminine” and was gay. [172]
# On Saturday April 11, 2009 a gay man in Gloucester, Massachusetts was attacked and beaten by as many as six people outside a bar. Justin Goodwin, 36, of Salem suffered a shattered jaw, broken eye socket, broken nose and broken cheek bone.[
The hate crime law makes the penalties more severe. I am surprised that no Southern Baptist who has posted on this law has spoken out against this, but instead you are worried that it is going to stop preaching against homosexuality which the law is not designed to do unless your preaching would lead to violence against someone who is gay. There is a way to do that and that is preach the Gospel. Preach sin where the Bible does, but don’t just stop there, because the Bible doesn’t.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie,
There are so many loopholes with this bill it isn’t even funny. This bill opens the door wide open for evangelical persecution. Just because somme looney in the congregation does something violent he can say the preacher spurned him on and the preacher can go to jail…. Does that seem right to you? This bill is foolishness and any Christian supporting it needs to take their blinders off. We have laws that punish violent criminals, we dont need another bill to punish murderers, rapists, arsonists, etc…
Does that seem right to you?
I’ll bet it does. Most mainstream christians are so weary of the awful, terrible, mean-spirited culture war. The poor things. Standing up for the Bible is so hard.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Is Political Liberalism a Religion? =-.
Why should the penalties be more severe? Those crimes are horrible. The funny thing is, we have this thing called “the law” and if people break that law (as these folks have) they should be punished. The fact is, mainstream christians are so in love with the social gospel rather than being in love with the gospel of Christ that they actually believe this law is a good thing. We Christians would like to thank all of you, particularly for your votes this past November. Great to see where your loyalties lie.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Is Political Liberalism a Religion? =-.
I’m just curious: why are there no instances cited where homosexuals have abused or murdered heterosexuals – or each other for that matter. The whole idea of “hate crimes” creates a class system. For myself, I just can’t think of a time when murder and abuse is not a “hate crime.” Most people understand that the “hate crimes legislation” is not about any kind of “equality or tolerance.” It is about “control.” It is about “intolerance.” It is a smokescreen. It is simply the initial steps of a broader homosexual (deviant) agenda. Just for the record, I’ve been involved in these issues since 1985 while ministering in the Bay Area. And, for the record, homosexuals, like all sinners, deserve to be loved as Christ has loved us. Love mixed with truth is the salve that heals the brokenhearted.
Shame, shame, shame Jack. That kind of mentality has lead to the Culture Wars and all the mean-spirited attacks by Christians on homosexuals. You know, if we’d just learn to accept everyone regardless of what they believe we’d be more like Jesus. All this stuff of calling something sin because the Bible says it’s sin–not working.
(BTW, that was tongue in cheek. I totally agree with your comment).
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
Matt: First of all I noticed that not one word was said in horror of these crimes. That is what is wrong.
A young man who was being sentenced for beating up another young man who was gay said at his sentencing, “You mean it’s now illegal to beat up a gay?” The judge replied, “Yes, and it is also illegal to murder one.”
This law curbs this type of crime. It needs to be. No blinders here Matt. But, I base my support on the crime statistics and facts that I have researched. This law is not for verbal phrases or for even saying anything unless it is violent speech, or speech that leads to violence. If a sermon is preached that would lead to violence, it’s not the law that would be the problem.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie,
We aren’t discussing how horrible the crimes are; we are discussing the bill. The crimes are horrible. Better? Now instead of reverting to comments like this one can we actually debate the issue?
Matt: They are one and the same. I am on topic, if I can’t give the reason for the bill, then you have just cut off the whole topic
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Quote:
Hate crimes laws punish violent acts, not beliefs or thoughts – even violent thoughts. The
LLEHCPA does not punish, nor prohibit in any way, name-calling, verbal abuse or expressions
of hatred toward any group even if such statements amount to hate speech. The Act does not punish
thought or speech or criticism of another person. It covers only violent actions that result
in death or bodily injury
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie,
I did not ignore these quotes. I just expanded on them concerning other laws that involved “intent”. What did you not understand about my comment below?
I know what the bill states that the law would not do right now, but I’m thinking in the future as these positions would just be one step away from going after intent.
When Muslim extremists get caught with plans to blow something up all the authorities have to charge them on is intent since nothing has happened. The evidence gathered is in the form of physical evidence and beliefs or thoughts – even violent thoughts.
I understand the motivation behind hate crimes legislation. However, when motives are judged in this manner the lines can really be blurred. Therefore, any act that happens against a homosexual, whose sexual orientation is unknown to the criminal, might be wrongly put in the category of a hate crime. We get the same problems with the racial aspect or anything so defined as motivate by “hate”.
While all crimes might not fit explicitly under the banner of “hate” the person whole stole my bike or broke into my car were not motivated out of “love” for me.
If a crime were committed against my wife I would not want the penalty for said crime to be less because it did not fit the bill of “hate”. What kind of justice is that?
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Godology Book Giveaway I =-.
If someone did only engage in verbal abuse and this law is passed then it opens the door to intent. Just like burglary, for example. Burglary doesn’t actually convict someone of stealing something, but the intent of stealing.
This is just one step away from criminalizing thought. No one that I know steals, abuses, etc. with “loving” intent. Most crimes aren’t “love” crimes. So to try to pass “hate” crimes law doesn’t make much sense to me.
Would hate crimes law also open the door to helping someone get off by appealing to their motivation as not being “hate”? Probably not, but I’m just sayin’.
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Write Your Own Message Bible =-.
Thank you Mark….
Debbie, are the blinders coming off? Mark just showed a major, untalked about loophole. Do you have a response or are you just going to stand by these liberal politicians?
While I stand in horror of what was done to honosexuals, I also stand in horror of what some of them do to people who don’t agree with that life style. Murderous rages are not limited to people who do not hold with that lifestyle. Man is a fallen creature. Murder is murder regardless of who does it. There is another issue behind this one, namely, pedophilia and incest. I have seen the terrible destructive effects such actions have had on children ( it was one of the reasons for my securing an M.A. in counseling – so I could have some wherewith in knowing how to help people in such situations). NAMBLA signs have often been seen in gay parades. The idea that a loving adult/child sexual relation is not harmful is totally disconnected with reality. Also about 20 yrs. ago I was interested to read the views of one so-called chaplain in the UN and a person serving on OBE2000 organization. That person’s attitude was this: “We are going to put all of you bible believing preachers in prison.” Others advocated mental institutions. More likely they will use certain ESB treatments to make Christian ministers aversive to what they once believed. But even if the new approach succeeds, it will fail. As Ransom, the character whose name is indicative of whom He symbolizes, says when the conspiracy succeeds, “They pull down deep Heaven upon their heads.”(cf. C.S. Lewis’ sci/fi novel, “That Hideous Strength.”
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Matt: There are no blinders and it seems that you and Mark have completely ignored the quote I gave concerning the bill. That is blinders in my opinion. This is what my “blinders see”:
* The fatal stabbing of James Zappalorti (1945 – 1990), a gay Vietnam veteran.[92]
* The murder of Julio Rivera in New York City on July 2, 1990, by two men who beat him with a hammer and stabbed him with a knife because he was gay.[93]
* The killing of Paul Broussard (1968–1991), a Houston-area banker.[94]
* The murder of U.S. Navy Petty Officer Allen Schindler by a shipmate who stomped him to death in a public restroom in Japan on October 27, 1992.[95] Schindler had complained repeatedly about anti-gay harassment aboard ship.[95] The case became synonymous with the gays in the military debate that had been brewing in the United States culminating in the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” bill.[96]
* The 1993 rape and later murder of Brandon Teena, a transman who was killed when his birth gender was revealed by police to male friends of his.[97] The events leading to Mr. Teena’s death were depicted in the movie Boys Don’t Cry.[98]
* On March 9, 1995, Scott Amedure was murdered after revealing his attraction to his friend Jonathan Schmitz on a The Jenny Jones Show episode about secret crushes. Schmidtz purchased a shotgun to kill Amedure and did so after Amedure implied he still was attracted to him; Schmitz then turned himself in to police.[99][100]
* The murders of Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill, a lesbian couple in Medford, Oregon, on December 4, 1995, by a man who said he had “no compassion” for bisexual or homosexual people.[101] Robert Acremant was convicted and sentenced to death by lethal injection.[102]
* The bombing of the Otherside Lounge, a lesbian nightclub in Atlanta, by Eric Robert Rudolph, the “Olympic Park Bomber,” on February 21, 1997; five bar patrons were injured. In a statement released after he was sentenced to five consecutive life terms for his several bombings, Rudolph called homosexuality an “aberrant lifestyle”.[103]
* The October 7, 1998, fatal attack on Matthew Shepard (1976 – 1998), a gay student, in Laramie, Wyoming. Shepard was tortured, beaten severely, tied to a fence, and abandoned; he was found 18 hours after the attack and succumbed to his injuries less than a week later, on October 12. His attackers, Russell Arthur Henderson and Aaron James McKinney, are both serving two consecutive life sentences in prison.[104]
* The July 1, 1999, murders of gay couple Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder by white supremacist brothers Matthew and Tyler Williams in Redding, California. Tyler Williams was sentenced to a minimum of 33 years in prison, to be served after his completion of a 21-year sentence for firebombing synagogues and an abortion clinic.[105] Benjamin Williams claimed that by killing the couple he was “obeying the laws of the Creator”.[106] He committed suicide in 2003 while awaiting trial. Their former pastor described the brothers as “zealous in their faith” but “far from kooks”.[107]
* The murder of U.S. Army Pfc. Barry Winchell on July 6, 1999, in Fort Campbell, Kentucky by fellow soldier Calvin Glover. Winchell was beaten to death with a baseball bat after rumors spread on base of his relationship with transgendered author Calpernia Addams. Glover was sentenced to life in prison.[108]
* The September 1999 murder of Steen Fenrich, apparently by his stepfather, john D. Fenrich, in Queens, New York. His dismembered remains were found in March 2001, with the phrase “gay nxxxxx number one” scrawled on his skull along with his social security number. His stepfather fled from police while being interviewed, then committed suicide.[109]
* Oct 15th, 1999: Sissy “Charles” Bolden, Savannah, Georgia. Found shot to death. Police arrested Charles E. Wilkins, Jr., in July 2003; he admitted the killing, and was charged in two other homicides, according to the Savannah Police Department.[110]
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
And of course, the only crimes that are committed in this country are against gay people? Why don’t you at least pretend like you’re going to try to explain how it matters if the person is gay when a crime is committed against them. I suppose in your mind, these things would have been ok if they were committed against a straight white male–especially if he was a complementarian.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Signs that your church leadership is abusive. =-.
The last part of your comment doesn’t deserve a response.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
As for most crimes being hate crimes? No they aren’t. That is a ridiculous argument, some are even crimes of passion, but that is not the point. This bill will make people aware, specifically, that to bodily harm or kill a homosexual is against the law. You would be surprised how many who have done these crimes don’t look at it as crimes. The penalty will be more severe. It’s a good bill in my opinion. It’s a needed bill. The posts that are being written are based more on conjecture than fact. I am for this bill.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
This bill will make people aware, specifically, that to bodily harm or kill a homosexual is against the law.
You’re argument that a large number of people who kill homosexuals are not unaware that it is against the law is so outrageous that it weakens everything you say.
Liberal politicians? Oh come on Matt, I think the facts bear out that crimes against people because of their sexual orientation need protection. You may not agree with their lifestyle, as I don’t, but this problem is serious. Very serious. If you would call someone who cares what happens to human beings, even gays, Liberal, I would point you to the passage of those who wanted to stone the woman in adultry. How did Jesus respond?
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Joe: I have answered you in my blog where you also commented. Needless to say that I am for the bill because the crimes against people who are gay are especially violent. Overkill would be the word I would use.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Greater detail is in my response to you over on my blog.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Wow, that makes a ton of sense, Debs. Because someone getting shot in the head and dieing is SO much better than someone who is beaten and then shot 3 times who happened to be gay. I mean, the person who got shot once only had to take one bullet. What business does their family have to be crying around their casket? I mean, they should just suck it up. It could have been worse. They could have been beaten and shot THREE times.
Yeah, how violent the crime was makes a REAL difference if at the end both victims are DEAD.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Signs that your church leadership is abusive. =-.
The “Hate” Crimes Bill is desperately needed. Hopefully there will be an amendment added to establish a new Department of Precrime complete with precogs.
Those poor “gay” people. When they are murdered they actually die. Sometimes they even feel pain. Same thing happens to minorities when they are murdered.
I’m so glad when “straight” people are murdered they don’t die and certainly feel no pain. It makes the experience so much more pleasant for the victims and their friends/families.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Information Overload Syndrome =-.
Stan, now you know we’re just being mean. when a gay person is killed it is so much worse than when a straight person is killed. Luckily for us, we have mainstream christians to educate us about things like that. Of course, they have no explanation for HOW a gay person being murdered, beaten, or robbed is worse than the same thing happening to a straight person but who are we to demand facts or logic from them. We’ve just been involved in the mean spirited culture war so long that we can’t love unconditionally like mainstreamers do (by unconditionally I mean we actually still believe in the concept of sin).
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Signs that your church leadership is abusive. =-.
What about equal protection under the Constitution?
Section 1 or the Fourteenth Amendment states in part: No State shall… deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..He’s Barack Obama…He’s come to save the day! =-.
Sadly, mainstreamers don’t want things equal…unless some are more equal than others.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Signs that your church leadership is abusive. =-.
Are violent acts against Christian Ministers/Preachers/Congregations by angry Muslims, or even angry Homosexuals, afforded the same protection under this bill?
Are violent acts against women by angry Muslims because they dared to show their face or ankles afforded the same protection under this bill?
Is Homosexual on Homosexual violence (by far the most common type of violence against any Homosexual is from another Homosexual) treated as a hate crime under this bill or is it only Heterosexual violence that is a hate crime under this bill?
Is the violence of an enraged husband against an unfaithful wife and her lover considered a hate crime under this bill?
Lots of question…. Lots of questions….
In my opinion this bill in unconstitutional and will be dead on arrival the first time it is challenged and brought before the Supreme Court.
Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Passionate Missionary Calvinism – Follow up =-.
I wish that were true. I’m afraid it isn’t. I hope I’m wrong.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Signs that your church leadership is abusive. =-.
The real aim in all of this is simply the destruction ofthe Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. Certain people have hated those documents due to their advocacy of the rights of human beings, God-given rights. Certain groups wanted a change so they could practice their life styles. That group has its source in another nation. The Conspiracy intends nothing less than the destruction of the USA which will be the last of the last best hope of mankind. Another thing intended is the reduction of the population of the erth by 5.5 billion. All of this has been planned and is rather trite and cut and dried. A fictional work written by the son of an Archbishop in 1906 talked about the treaties which we know as Nafta etc., as the means of the destruction of the US some 90 yrs. later. Hmmn. And then therE was the letter written in 1878 discussing World War I & II in the next century, and then there was Col. House’s Philip Dru: Aminstrator or Taylor Caldwell’s Captains and the Kings, and C.S. Lewis, sci/fi trilogy. O yes, R. Buskminister Fuller’s works. Cleon Skousen’ The Naked Capitalist (a review of Carroll Quigley’s Tragedy and Hope). Lewis tells the end. The Conspiracy succeeds and gets to brainwash people to do what they want, and the main character in Lew’s’ sci/fi vol III, That Hideous Strength, says, “They pull down Deep Heaven on their heads.” A good description of the Third Great Awakening, the real answer to all of the evils of today, but no easy, simplistic idiocy, rather a divine complexity of Presence, Thology, and Humility aong with SUFFERING.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
I should know better than to get involved in this discussion, since I haven’t decided to support or oppose it, but I would like to at least see a discussion of the real idea behind what is considered a hate crime. No one who understands hate crime legislation is suggesting that jail terms should be longer for violent offenders because their offense is done out of hate. Supporters of the bill are suggesting that a hate crime deserves greater punishment because it is a crime against a community of people, rather than just the immediate victim. Think of lynchings of black people done by the KKK. They were not simply murder, but ways of sending a “message” to black people and those who sympathized with them. I’m not saying that this justifies a separate kind of law and punishment, but if you’re going to oppose it, at least oppose it for what it is, not what it isn’t. It isn’t just stricter punishment because the immediate victim was “hated.”
Bill,
Why should motive determine harshness of punishment? If a man murders another human being why would his motive determine how much jail time he does? If a person murders another person it is equally as wrong no matter the motive. It is the action that is illegal, not the thoughts that lead up to the action.
Matt: That isn’t the question. And I’m not advocating the bill. The question is whether crimes can be committed against a community of people. A hate crime (in the rationale of its supporters) is a terrorist act.
Matt: By the way, motive does indeed matter in sentencing. The difference between first and second degree murder is often a matter of motive. All murders are not created equal, at least in our system of jurisprudence.
Right, except motives within the two camps themselves have not mattered until this bill.
Bill, The question is whether crimes can be committed against a community of people.
Sure, by killing all of them. Am I a victim when a white man is attacked (because he’s white) by a “minority”? Of course not.
Why the anonymity?
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Latest bailout estimates in terms that should make you puke =-.
Stan: Anonymity? Do you need my full name and address? I post using my google credentials. I have posted as Bill (my real name, oddly enough) on blogs for years.
Bill, Anonymity?
Yes, Bill. Your post is an anonymous one. Not that I need (your) full name and address but it is nice to know something about the people who are commenting .
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Latest bailout estimates in terms that should make you puke =-.
Well, my last name is MacKinnon if that helps. If there is anything else you need to know please don’t hesitate to ask.
Bill, you said
and then…
Isn’t a longer jail term a greater punishment? And if it is not “hate” that is being suggested then why call it such? Don’t all people make up a community of some sort?
I like this less and less. As it gets unpacked by some it seems what is being pushed is unequal justice under the law and favoritism.
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Write Your Own Message Bible =-.
Even more than unfair justice, this law intends to pave the way for shutting the mouths of Christians. Period. There are people that can’t stand the truth and can’t stand for someone to proclaim “The bible says that homosexuality is a sin”. And if it were just folks outside the church that wanted to shut us up I could understand that. But then you’ve got mainstream chrisitans who refuse to stand up for what the bible clearly teaches because that is too mean spirited.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Mark: Yes, longer jail terms are greater punishment. The clarification I was trying to make is that the greater punishment is not because the perpetrator hated his or her victim, but because the crime, in the minds of the bill’s supporters is not just against the immediate victim but also against the community that person represents.
I’m not saying such a thing is worthy of greater punishment, I’m just trying to clarify greater punishment because the victim is hated is not the motivation behind the bill.
Joe: You do realize that there has actually been some state hate crime bills that include crimes for gender and disabilities just like this crime bill entails for many years. Can you cite a case among those states where your fears have been realized? I can’t find one.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Diabilities?? What in the blazes would disabilities have to do with anything? Why would anyone even bother to bring that into the discussion?
Now, if the state statutes mention homosexuality when you say “gender” then I would say (1) it’s a state statute not a federal law–everyone knows federal laws have much more “teeth” and (2) just because I can’t cite a case among those states where my fears have been realized only means it hasn’t happened yet.
However, if by “gender” you simply mean discrimination or violent crime based on whether someone is a man or a woman how does that have any bearing on a discussion of homosexual activists lobbying for protected legal status to which they’re not entitled for the purpose of shutting up Christians with the help of mainstream christians?
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Bill,
Inoffensive speech needs no Constitutional protection…
I am shocked that many “American citizens” commenting her do not comprehend that even offensive speech must be cherished and protected. As bad as this may sound in today’s politically correct world run amuck… The “First Amendment” guarantees “American citizens” the right under the constitution to hate… and not just to hate, but to passionately hate, and to express that hate by the lifting up of my voice in public and shouting it from the courthouse steps.
There is a reason why the freedom of speech is the very “First Amendment”… Our Forefathers knew what it was like to live under a repressive Totalitarian Government, and they knew that whenever a people loose the right to freely express their opinions, yes even their hate, they loose all their Freedoms… . (Including the freedom of worship and political dissent.)
Friends this is the slippery slope to a Totalitarian Government… just look to the recent events in Iran if you wish to see what happens in a “democracy” when a people loose their right to freedom of speech… Go to Iran and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the streets and you will experience first hand why we must vigorously protect even (what some would call) “hate speech”.
Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Passionate Missionary Calvinism – Follow up =-.
Greg: I’m not sure it is me you are responding to.
Sorry Bill… your right, I should have posted that comment to everyone.
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Passionate Missionary Calvinism – Follow up =-.
Thomas Sowell on “hate crimes:”
People who glibly talk about “hate crimes” ignore both the past and the implications for the future in what they are advocating. It took centuries of struggle and people putting their lives on the line to get rid of the idea that a crime against “A” should be treated differently than the same crime committed against “B.”
After much sacrifice and bloodshed, the principle finally prevailed that killing a peasant deserved the same punishment as killing a baron. Now the “hate crime” advocates want to undo all that and take us back to the days when punishment did not fit the crime, but varied with who the crime was committed against.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Latest bailout estimates in terms that should make you puke =-.
Stan, Exactly!!!
I think I read something in the Constitution about “Equal Protection” under the Law… I could be wrong?
But hey the Constitution was written by a bunch of white slave owners… what do they know? (Sarcasm intended)
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Passionate Missionary Calvinism – Follow up =-.
I hate to keep playing games here, but in many places, killing a police officer will result in a greater punishment than killing a soccer mom. So have we really come that far?
Joe: If you would bother to do some research on this Hate Crime Bill, it also includes those with disabilities along with sexual orientation. See? Researching something and getting the facts does wonders for thinking rationally.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
It doesn’t matter that it includes those with disabilities. That isn’t the problem with the bill. No pastor is going to be jailed for preaching against disabilities since that obviously isn’t a sin. The problem with the bill is that it includes sexual perversions (homosexuality, trans-gender, etc) as a federally protected status with the intent of paving the way for silencing Christians from saying that homosexuality is a sin. It has happened in other countries.
I’m starting to think the “mainstream” in mainstream baptists means the same thing as “mainstream” does in education.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Stan: You bet I do. And for the reasons given. You all are talking like a bunch of dispensationalists. And if any of you are Dispensationalist, you have just given proof of why I am not.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie,
“You all are talking like a bunch of dispensationalists.”
WHAT?
I am really confused with your whole like of reasoning here… Perhaps you do not agree that “All men are created equal” and that all men should be afforded equal protection under the law?
Have you ever noticed that in the picture of “Lady Justice” she is always blindfolded?
That is meant to communicate that all men are equal under the law, and that all men will be judged and punished as equals. This is the very foundation of our legal system and government… and if you remove this foundation then upon what other foundation will you build? Who decides that one crime committed by one individual is worthy of more punishment than the same crime committed by another? Who decides Debbie? The President? Congress? You?
Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Passionate Missionary Calvinism – Follow up =-.
She doesn’t care who decides as long as it’s not a Christian and the decision isn’t made based on the Christian Bible.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Debbie, Bet you do what? Dispensationalist talking?
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Latest bailout estimates in terms that should make you puke =-.
Debbie: HOW ABOUT SOME RESEARCH ON HOW HOMOSEXUALS ARE ALSO GUILTY OF CRIMES OF MURDER AND RAPE. HOW ABUT SEXUAL ABUSE OF CHILDREN. YOU SEEM VERY POSSESSED OF THE FACTS FOR STRAIGHT CRIMES AGAINST HOMOSEXUAL. HOW ABOUT THE OTHER WAY. I HAVE SPOKE WITH SOME ACROSS THE YEARS WHO EXPERIENCED VIOLENCE FROM THOSE WHO WANTED SEX WITH MEN EVEN IF THEY HAD TO USE VIOLENCE TO ACHIEVE IT.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Now James, you know you’re just mean spirited. You need to leave the culture wars and focus on loving people unconditionally**,
**By unconditionally, mainstream christians mean that you don’t mention what the Bible says about sin. That’s too exclusive and we need to be open to anybody no matter what they believe, just like God. (tongue planted firmly in cheek)
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Dear Joe; My remarks were aimed at correcting Debbie’s one-sidedness, for it is very evident that she does not know what really goes on on this issue. There are people who murder and kill homosexuals without provocation, and there are homosexuals who do the same to straights also without provocation. Man is a fallen creature. Blood-thirsty is just one of the many manifestations of his fallenness. They talk about putting the Chimpanzee in a suitable habitat (the one who tore off the woman’s face), but what about men and women who murder their families, including even the babies? Unconditional love might be taken, tongue in cheek, for not mentioning any sin, but have spent two years on agape love, especially I Cors.13, I can say with some sense of assurance that that ain’t what agape love is all about. We all know about the threats that go both ways between men over this matter. And most are aware of what can and often does happen in prison, for example. The same also happens outside, but is not as well known. my focus has been upon the children. The present day attitude of letting males adopt little boys made the national news (at least on the net and on some of the news channels) about the employee of Duke what sexually abused the little boy he adopted. Alo some of us are aware of the case in Boyd County KY where the parents were told that they did not have any choice about their children being taught that homosexuality was an acceptable lifestyle in the public schools. Those parents said, “What about our rights and the rights of our children?” The lawyers said, “That doesn’ matter.” The case is stll in the courts on appeal (I think). Stuff like that is pushing the limits of our civilizations. Parents will go to war over their children. Debbie’s remarks are totally loaded in favor of the hate crimes law and the philosophy behind it…which she really apparently does not know and is not aware of its real intent. Prosecution for causing hate crimes and for having literature (i.e, the Bible) which can be interpreted as inflammatory can and will occur with the aim of total suppression. Just like the fellow in one of the Scandinavian (sp?) countries who went to jail for reading the Bible in his own pulpit (an Assembly of God pastor, if memory seves correctly). I think his sentence was 6 mos., and he served about all of it. We are not fooled one bit. We know what really lies behind this. The late Carroll Quigley’s Tragedy and Hope. NY: Macmillan, `1965, tells us about the conspiracy which he evidently thought was a good thing, along with his Anglo-American Establishment pub. in 1980. I have read where he had his doubts about the thing just before he died. His first volume was suppressed, but it had let the cat out of the bag. Cleon Skousen’s The Naked Capitalist, a review of Quigley’s first book, ended all anti-communist crusading, because behind every communist was a capitalist. The conspiracy wants open sex in every way, including not only homosexuality, but child sex and beastiality and orgies. Forget marriages. These are the people with the money and the power. Thankfully, not all are in agreement. Some have reacted against such idiocy, But it is a moot question as to whether the latter will succeed. We will probably get the hate crimes law as the powers that be have the wherewithal to buy them. For a while things wll be quiet. Then slowly, but surely, they will bring pressure to bear. Five – ten years down the road, maybe more, maybe less, the concentration camps will be in full swing with psychiatrists using USB tecniques to convert Christians from their views by aversive means and with heavy pleasurable rewards for those who turn the other way. Lewis’ That Hideous Strength, “they pull down deep heaven on their heads,” is how, perhaps, God might answer….which is really what a Great Awakening is. The presence of Heaven, the right theology, and true humility constitute a true Awakening, and such appears to be promised in Holy Scripture.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Dude, I was agreeing with you. I was mocking the position of mainstream christians regarding this bill.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Dar Joe: Note my remark bout ongue in cheek to see that I was on to what you were doing. I was continuing with my effort otherwise.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Sorry, man. Didn’t see the “toungue in cheek”. That was hard to read without paragraphs, Dr. Willingham. Haa haa
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Dr. Willingham: You underestimate me greatly, having lived, worked, gotten to know people in the real world, I am very aware of what is going on, it is why I am for this bill. This is going to sound hateful and it isn’t meant to be, but folks like me have a better handle of people outside the church than any minister. We are out in it deep. We have to get along with gay people, transsexuals(although not while they are working), in order to work side by side with them on a daily basis. I have been doing it for over forty years. So it’s not me who doesn’t know what is really going on.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
QUOTE: folks like me have a better handle of people outside the church than any ministe END QUOTE
Wow! What a broad brush. You obviously have a very low opinion of ministers — and an equally low understanding of them. It is easy to sling mud but hard to stay clean doing it. Most ministers I know have dealt with this issue at a level you probably could not even imagine. Again, statements like the one above indicate to me that you are too emotionally vested in your argument to really be objective.
True dat.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Honest Scrap?? =-.
Oh and my point? They are human beings with a story. Sometime you should get to know what their stories are. It may surprise you.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Joe: I do love unconditionally. It’s no less than Christ did for you and I when he gave his life for us on the cross.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish-Luke 13:2-3
Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more.”-John 8:10-11
Also, you haven’t exactly answered anyone with anything resembling something that makes sense as to why this law is necessary since we already have laws that punish criminals. Further, adding Matthew Shepherd’s name to the bill was a nice touch by libs to appeal to emotions of people who don’t care to think critically but the fact is the monsters that murdered that man would not have been less likely to do what they did with this law in place. If someone is sick enough to commit a murder they’re going to do it regardless of the law. It’s not like they conversation would have been “He looks gay…we oughta kill him” “What are you crazy? Do you want to be charged with a hate crime?” “Oh man, I forgot about that. Let’s go roll someone’s yard”
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..II Peter 2:4-8 God the Righteous Judge Part III =-.
Joe: The verses you have given are exactly correct. They need the Gospel. They could straighten up right now, stop being gay, and still be headed for hell. They need Christ. We having Christ have in us Christ’s love. We also have the answers.
This is the problem with your approach Joe. You want them to stop being gay. Without Christ they can’t. Give them Christ.
You are so disgusted with their lifestyle, that you don’t see beyond the lifestyle. I talk and work with gay people on a daily basis in every job I have had. I have befriended and talked to them. . I have taken care of them when they were sick.They are people Joe. People in deep need of a Savior. Not murder, not disdain, not shunning, but someone who will care for them enough to pray for them and give them Jesus.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
This is the problem with your approach Joe. You want them to stop being gay. Without Christ they can’t. Give them Christ.
You have no idea what “my approach” is and you certainly can’t assume that you do from what I’ve said here, thank you very much. Further, helping people (which I’ve also done, Mother Theresa–don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back) has nothing to do with the topic of this post or the points I’ve made which is that the hate crimes bill is unnecessary and the purpose of that bill is to pave the way for folks to be able to shut Christians up or jail them. Ever hear of Canada? Yeah, you know, that country to the north. It’s happened there, Debs. Now, thanks to mainstreamers, it’s GOING to happen here with the wonderful Supreme Court justices that we’re going to have appointed.
I’m not talking about calling people to repentance from sin a la Westboro (“You’re going to HELL”) but a loving call to repentance that says all sin separates people from God–my sin, your sin, all sin. A call that says I’m here for you if you want to talk or need anything regardless of whether you decide to repent but I’m going to love you enough to tell you the truth.
Oh, and nice way to just ignore the point that you still haven’t provided any sensible reason for having this moronic law since we already have laws that punish people who commit murder.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
You have no idea what “my approach” is and you certainly can’t assume that you do from what I’ve said here, thank you very much.
Joe, I beg to differ.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Joe: I have provided very sensible reasons, you just don’t like the answer. BTW you say I can’t tell your approach by what you post here. Yet, your disdain and anger is showing. It’s a mindset I have grown up with, it’s a mindset that I was taught both in my church and home.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie, Might you be wrong in your approach?
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Sub-Prime Health Care =-.
Now Stan, you know we’re just so involved in the mean spirited, awful Culture War that we can’t see the truth that Debs is trying to teach us–God doesn’t punish sin, it’s His joy to cure it (Wm Paul Young, The Shack). Someone can be a Christian and a practicing homosexual. The whole idea that we should call people to repent of their sins so they can be forgiven is preposterous. Don’t you know that Jesus ate with tax collectors?
Now that we’ve got this law in place, maybe we can work on loving people and accepting them no matter what they believe. That’s they way Jesus did it, after all. (tongue in cheek)
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
My question for Debbie:
Can an unrepentant homosexual be a Christian?
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Sub-Prime Health Care =-.
Great question Stan…
Debbie? Can a person who is unrepentant of their homosexuality be a Christian?
Inquiring minds want to know….
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
Matt: No. In fact if he/she doesn’t feel compelled to repent, I would doubt that they had truly been born again. It seems that you are attempting to label me where you shouldn’t. My theology is quite Biblical, conservative and sound.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
I am not trying to label you at all. I merely thought Stan asked a good question and was quite curious as to your answer. You never know with Egalitarians..
So let me get this straight, it seems that you think that because I am for this bill, I do not think homosexuality is a sin or I am not a Christian? Based on Christ’s ministry on this earth, how do you think He would have treated those who did or condoned these crimes against gays?
Guys: Morality is not our calling. The Great Commission is. We are not called to adjust or change the morality on this earth. We are called to give the Gospel. Period.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Equating someone opposing this bill with condoning crimes against gays is preposterous. Claiming that it is not our responsibility as Christians to vote in a manner consistant with what the Bible teaches is even more preposterous. Again, all ANYONE has to do is look at what has happened in coutries with laws like this and they will see what is GOING to happen in this country thanks to this law. In fact, the entire PURPOSE of the law was not to provide additional protection to certain people but to shut Christians up.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
Joe is right.. Debbie, I am baffled that you cant see through this pathetic smokescreen.
Debbie: I have been not only a minister, but a social worker in MO & KY, a history instructor (& one course in Philosophy), LPC in NC and Counselor in High School besides preaching for over 50 yrs. and pastoring for 28 yrs. I have preached in jails, on streets, dealt with as a minister or social worker or counselor with just about every kind of mess there is. I have also been threatened with violence by a homo who not long after that threat was charged with murder for beating an old man to death with his fists on the streets. Now I know that all homosexuals are not violent or violently inclined. At the same time I also know with a pretty strong certainty that there are peole who are intending to rip this country apart to get the kind of sexual license (among many other things) that they want. They also intend to do some very unpleasant things to Christians. What happened in the old Soviet Union and still happens in China whenever the powers that be feel threatened by the good of believers. We are on the road to disaster unless God intervenes. I am also a researcher, and my idea of research is to cover ever source I can lay hands on for many years. My Black History professor, one of the really great historians, taught me to do research, and I have literally thousands of notecards (usually 5x8s written on both sides (organization ain’t my strong point) as e.g., I have 3000 in church history covering more than 250 sources and 2000 covering the agape pericope of I Cors.12:31b-14:1a and etc.). American History is another strong point, and I have also taught philosophy, political science, theology, church history, Baptist history, Hebrews, Isaiah, preaching. And then there is the counseling I have done as a minister, social worker, and licensed professional counselor. As to jobs I have since (and including) childhood worked at over 135 different kinds of jobs. I do not approve of killing in any situation except self defense, and murder (there is a difference) is utterly abhorrent along with hatred which is the key to murder. Even so, hate crimes legislation will lead to the same situation it has already led to in (was it?) Sweden where an Assembly of God pastor went to prison for 6 mos. for preaching in his own church on Romans (I think it was). I say again, you are not looking at the big picture behind this legislation.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
And I am baffled that you can’t see there is no smokescreen but of your own making.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Then, of course, you can explain why the EXACT SAME LAW as the kind that passed in Canada and other countries where people have been jailed for saying homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible won’t have the exact same effect here. Especially with liberal judges that are going to be appointed to the bench thanks to the most pro-choice President ever elected.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
Dr. Willingham: I am looking at the big picture, and God is always intervening.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Joe: You just baffle me period.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Joe: Other countries do not have Freedom of Speech as we do. That isn’t going to change. Although, you won’t allow others freedom to disagree with you.
The biggest crime is this: You guys are looking out for yourselves. Gays are not the enemy they are the mission field. That is what cultural wars do. They make enemies out of those who we are supposed to love(love your neighbor more or as much as yourself) and give the gospel too.
We should be concerned about the crimes committed against this particular group of people, but it seems we are sin picking here. All who are without Christ are going to hell.
The absolute prejudiceness is showing and this is getting ugly. I am for the Bill. You haven’t begun to change my mind and if given a vote or a voice, I will show support.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
We should be concerned about the crimes committed against this particular group of people
..which we are and we should that concern by having laws on the books that punish criminals.
I am for the Bill. You haven’t begun to change my mind
Proverbs 26:4
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
Oh, and Canada most certainly does have freedom of speech comparible to what we have here in this country, thank you very much.
Debbie, Take a breather.
Because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they hate homosexuals.
Like Matt, I (was) not trying to label you at all. I was simply attempting to ascertain where you’re coming from to a degree.
There is no need for you to be so defensive.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Sub-Prime Health Care =-.
Debbie: Murder is murder is murder by whoever and whenever. Any one who murders a homosexual should be tried as a murderer and based on the evidence found guilty should be executed, if that is what the injured parties feel is necessary. Smokescreens are apart of life. We all have them just as you do, Debbie. One is not seeing that hate crimes law is a smokescreen to hide the real intent to silence the Christians. Joe and Greg and others (I think) have tried to point that out to you by references to Canada (I mentioned Sweden). You never responded. Why? Concern for homosexuals is not hampered by a distrust of this law which we see as having another purpose.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
No need to go to other countries to see “hate crimes” run amok.
South Carolina
Mississippi
Arizona
Kansas
Texas
Should I go on? I don’t think that will be necessary.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Give fat people a break! Seriously. =-.
There is no need for you to be so defensive>/i>
Forgive the phrase, but do you think I was just born yesterday? Just fell off the turnip truck? Of course I should be defensive based on the comments here. I would be silly not to be.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
Of course, I speak only for myself and no one else in the comment stream, but anyone that is for this law and calls themselves a Christian should be ashamed.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Here Come the Thought Police!! =-.
As I was saying.
.-= Stan McCullars´s last blog ..Give fat people a break! Seriously. =-.
To all and sundry: I do not go along with using a billy club in a disagreement. Debbie might be wrong, and I believe she is, but she has a right to her opinion and the right to present that opinion with what justifications she thinks proper. The task of those who disagree with her is to present evidence to the contrary, evidence that counters her understanding of the situation. She might or might not respond to the evidence (in this case she has not – in my opinion), but that does no matter or diminish her right to present her view. Such is a Baptist and Biblical doctrine called liberty of conscience. My case as to examples of homosexuals who do to others what others do to them (murder) is not buttressed with cases like she cited for her view. And the truth of some of her cases must be recognized as acceptable while some of her cases are questionable. On the other hand, she does not at all address the cases cited regarding Canada and Sweden, cases that bear directly upon her own commitment to Christ and to the view that homosexuality is a sin, because she can be subject to legal repercussions just as any of us would be with the passage of this hate crime law, if some one wants to argue that the Bible promotes hate crimes by its condemnation of homosexuality. But then the Bible also condemns fornication, adultery, and other sins, things generally regard as socially, familially, and personally destructive.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
I have no axe to grind with Debbie or anyone else. I certainly am not a “homophobe,” though I’ve been accused of such on occasion. I was holding the hands of gays dying of AIDS before the general public even knew what the disease was. My problem with the “hate crimes” legislation is that it is simply a ruse, or ploy. If it had anything to do with the argument Debbie makes that we should love and minister to homosexuals, or that we should stand up for any class or citizen being discriminated against — then, I’d be carrying the banner for the bill. But, the hate crimes bill is simply a major step forward to push the radical homosexual agenda. As the Arabian Proverb states: “When the camel’s nose is in the tent, it won’t be long before he is in bed with you.” I can readily support Debbie’s agenda of love, but reject her understanding of the “Hate Crimes Legislation.”
By the way . . . (and then I’ll shut up), arguments similar to Debbie’s were used to assist in laws regarding “protecting those seeking abortion.” As we have learned, that was also a ruse and ploy by radical pro-abortion groups. Same arguments: different sin. Christians who speak out boldly against the “sin-of-the-week” in society will always be labeled “haters.” It is the classic: “kill the messenger and ignore the message” model.
Yup! The real aim of Abortion is population control, and then to change the USA and the whole world. Hidden agendas are the problem in all of these bills of extreme legislation. Guess, I’ll close up shop for a while on this issue…until they come to prosecute me.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
I also find it telling that folks that are so “fired up” about getting this Hate Crimes legislation passed voted the most pro-abortion president in US history knowing full well what he was GOING to do on abortion and that there was a good possiblity that he would put at least two Supreme Court justices on the bench. I guess their righteous indignation doesn’t get nearly as intense about dissecting babies inside their mother’s womb and pulling them out a piece at a time or throwing a baby that has survived an abortion in the garbage.
.-= Joe Blackmon´s last blog ..Honest Scrap?? =-.
Joe: As I explain further in my comment to you(where you made the same libelous comment) I did not vote for Obama and I am very pro-life. I’ve told you this numerous times. It is amazing to me the lies that occur among Christians in order to discredit. I’m very open and honest about my life.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Unconditional Love For Those Without Christ =-.
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