Comments on: Structuring The SBC Around Why We Exist http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/ Southern Baptist News & Opinion Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:32:19 +0000 hourly 1 By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4634 Dr. James Willingham Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:43:55 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4634 Now for a history lesson on the structure of the SBC. A recent program on the history channel made the point that the government of the US is a federal structure, copied from the way the masonic lodges are set up. What the masons did was to recap their lodge structure (federal) in the US government. But the government, as George Bancropt a noted historian of the past called it, is a calvinistic republic. The calvinistic republics were the the governments of Geneva, Switzerland, the Netherlands, England, and the America. Look at the Convention structure; it is a federal type structure. Was the Baptists copying their nation's government or were they implementing the masonic type structure or were they establishing a calvinistic type of church government? Probably a little bit of all three. Actually, secret societies and the Baptists (or Baptist type predecessors in England, e.g., the Lollards) were cooperating before the first lodge was publically established. After all, you could neither be a member of a secret society or a member of a group the state church regarded as heretical. For protection and survivability the two appeared to work together. That is why, perhaps, the lodges and the Baptist and Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches got on together so well. In fact, they got on so well until the 20th century especially (with a bump or two in the 19th), when alien views really began to be imported into the lodges, views inimical to the Christian Faith altogether as in when some lodges started putting the quietus on praying in the name of Jesus, all in the name of not offending those who did not want to hear His name and even at the risk of offending those who do want to pray in his name. Now it is beginning to be enforced in the US military and in state legislatures with the attitude that it is too bad for those who want to pray in His name and are required to do it. Now the structure of the SBC is coming under great strain as the folks who really run things find it a hindrance to their having a free hand. They want the last large bastion of Protestant supernatural Christianity off the scene so they can promote their religious pabulum of pluralism. Few realize the power Baptists exert. And remember, where there is 1-2 Baptists in practice, there might well be 3-4 more who incline that way. What Baptists need is a better structure, one founded upon a better knowledge of what the Bible allows in the way of cooperation and working together as well as the theology which actually enables and empowers a liberal, open-handed, open-minded, receptive and yet faithful, dependable, orthodoxy and orthopraxy which has a built in ability to handle change without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We have had that secret for over two hundred years. Just think: How did Regular Baptists persuade General Baptists to adopt a particular redemption point of view? And how did the Separate and Regular Baptists manage to unite and make all participants feel like they were the gainer by the compromises? I wish some of you folks would get really excited about the past and how we might bring some of that approach to our present situation. Christian/biblical doctrine is so constructed as to make the believer balanced, flexible, creative, and magnetic, and, I rather suspect, so are the scriptural precepts for larger structures of cooperation and commitment of forces to the tasks of missions and evangelism. Think, friends, think. The Bible is an intellectual book, the most intellectual book ever written, becaue it is inspired by the omniscient God. Such being the case, then it must reflect the depth of wisdom commensurate with that reality. That wisdom will help us to cope with our present unpleasant situations and win the day for the glory of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ. .-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..<a href="http://thirdgreatawakeningcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/climax-of-reformation.html" rel="nofollow">The Climax of the Reformation</a> =-. Now for a history lesson on the structure of the SBC. A recent program on the history channel made the point that the government of the US is a federal structure, copied from the way the masonic lodges are set up. What the masons did was to recap their lodge structure (federal) in the US government. But the government, as George Bancropt a noted historian of the past called it, is a calvinistic republic. The calvinistic republics were the the governments of Geneva, Switzerland, the Netherlands, England, and the America. Look at the Convention structure; it is a federal type structure. Was the Baptists copying their nation’s government or were they implementing the masonic type structure or were they establishing a calvinistic type of church government? Probably a little bit of all three. Actually, secret societies and the Baptists (or Baptist type predecessors in England, e.g., the Lollards) were cooperating before the first lodge was publically established. After all, you could neither be a member of a secret society or a member of a group the state church regarded as heretical. For protection and survivability the two appeared to work together. That is why, perhaps, the lodges and the Baptist and Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches got on together so well. In fact, they got on so well until the 20th century especially (with a bump or two in the 19th), when alien views really began to be imported into the lodges, views inimical to the Christian Faith altogether as in when some lodges started putting the quietus on praying in the name of Jesus, all in the name of not offending those who did not want to hear His name and even at the risk of offending those who do want to pray in his name. Now it is beginning to be enforced in the US military and in state legislatures with the attitude that it is too bad for those who want to pray in His name and are required to do it. Now the structure of the SBC is coming under great strain as the folks who really run things find it a hindrance to their having a free hand. They want the last large bastion of Protestant supernatural Christianity off the scene so they can promote their religious pabulum of pluralism. Few realize the power Baptists exert. And remember, where there is 1-2 Baptists in practice, there might well be 3-4 more who incline that way. What Baptists need is a better structure, one founded upon a better knowledge of what the Bible allows in the way of cooperation and working together as well as the theology which actually enables and empowers a liberal, open-handed, open-minded, receptive and yet faithful, dependable, orthodoxy and orthopraxy which has a built in ability to handle change without throwing out the baby with the bathwater. We have had that secret for over two hundred years. Just think: How did Regular Baptists persuade General Baptists to adopt a particular redemption point of view? And how did the Separate and Regular Baptists manage to unite and make all participants feel like they were the gainer by the compromises? I wish some of you folks would get really excited about the past and how we might bring some of that approach to our present situation. Christian/biblical doctrine is so constructed as to make the believer balanced, flexible, creative, and magnetic, and, I rather suspect, so are the scriptural precepts for larger structures of cooperation and commitment of forces to the tasks of missions and evangelism. Think, friends, think. The Bible is an intellectual book, the most intellectual book ever written, becaue it is inspired by the omniscient God. Such being the case, then it must reflect the depth of wisdom commensurate with that reality. That wisdom will help us to cope with our present unpleasant situations and win the day for the glory of our blessed Lord Jesus Christ.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.

]]> By: Andrew http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4611 Andrew Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:55:02 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4611 Your problem is that you're in Nebraska (nothing wrong with that state, Cornhuskers, just not a big SBC locale!) Cross the border to Kansas, but mianly Missouri, and you'll be back with the home folks Your problem is that you’re in Nebraska (nothing wrong with that state, Cornhuskers, just not a big SBC locale!)

Cross the border to Kansas, but mianly Missouri, and you’ll be back with the home folks

]]> By: Sallie http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4605 Sallie Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:46:51 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4605 No one would ask you to drive 40 miles to Lexington NE for an SBC church. That would be hypocritical of most of us to expect you to do something we wouldn't be willing to do ourselves. Here on this post you say you are in exile but would be in an SBC church if there was one, and one of your other SBCVoices articles asked what it would take for the SBC to reach the midwest... this is only a volunteer position but maybe this is your opportunity to be a "doer" at least for the time you are still there: From the namb website: Project #H519107002 Kearney Church Planter Strengthener This position will assist the church planter in Kearney, Nebraska to plant a church in Kearney, Nebraska and Grand Isle, Nebraska. These are the 4th and 5th largest cities in Nebraska and both do not have a functioning Southern Baptist church. The incumbent will be expected to reach people for the Lord through witnessing, door to door surveying, church starting events and other means that are appropriate for the setting. This position is intended to exist until the churches are functioning. Good luck in Louisville. It's my hometown and I miss it a great deal! Can't wait until we make it back there after USMC retirement :-) God bless, Sallie .-= Sallie´s last blog ..<a href="http://www.mikeandsallie.com/sallie/index.blog?entry_id=1373697" rel="nofollow">It's Like Riding A Bicycle...</a> =-. No one would ask you to drive 40 miles to Lexington NE for an SBC church. That would be hypocritical of most of us to expect you to do something we wouldn’t be willing to do ourselves.

Here on this post you say you are in exile but would be in an SBC church if there was one, and one of your other SBCVoices articles asked what it would take for the SBC to reach the midwest… this is only a volunteer position but maybe this is your opportunity to be a “doer” at least for the time you are still there:

From the namb website:

Project #H519107002
Kearney Church Planter Strengthener
This position will assist the church planter in Kearney, Nebraska to plant a church in Kearney, Nebraska and Grand Isle, Nebraska. These are the 4th and 5th largest cities in Nebraska and both do not have a functioning Southern Baptist church. The incumbent will be expected to reach people for the Lord through witnessing, door to door surveying, church starting events and other means that are appropriate for the setting. This position is intended to exist until the churches are functioning.

Good luck in Louisville. It’s my hometown and I miss it a great deal! Can’t wait until we make it back there after USMC retirement :-)

God bless,
Sallie
.-= Sallie´s last blog ..It's Like Riding A Bicycle… =-.

]]> By: Wes Kenney http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4600 Wes Kenney Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:51:27 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4600 It does. Thanks, Matt. By the way, what about the Kearney Crossroads Church? It's small, recently planted, and SBC. They could probably use the help. Again, just curious. .-= Wes Kenney´s last blog ..<a href="http://sbctoday.com/2009/07/08/2009-sbc-annual-meeting-review-part-2/" rel="nofollow">2009 SBC Annual Meeting Review, Part 2</a> =-. It does. Thanks, Matt.

By the way, what about the Kearney Crossroads Church? It’s small, recently planted, and SBC. They could probably use the help.

Again, just curious.
.-= Wes Kenney´s last blog ..2009 SBC Annual Meeting Review, Part 2 =-.

]]> By: Todd Benkert http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4592 Todd Benkert Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:53:48 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4592 Stephen, You're the one who picked an unnecessary fight over a legitimate question (the blog is named "SBC Voices" after all). If you have such little time to blog, then why do a hit-and-run on David and then complain when he calls you on it? -- Todd Stephen,

You’re the one who picked an unnecessary fight over a legitimate question (the blog is named “SBC Voices” after all). If you have such little time to blog, then why do a hit-and-run on David and then complain when he calls you on it?

– Todd

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4589 Dr. James Willingham Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:07:31 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4589 In writing my thesis for the M.A. in American Social & Intellectual History on the subject, "The Baptists & Ministerial Qualifications from 1750-1850," I found that the doctrine is basically two-sided and apparently contradictory and that is the genius of why and ho it works. The doctrine is that God qualifies a person for ministry by a call that involves both illumination and/or education. The best is a both/and as the two tend to be complementary. Their apparent contradiction sets up a tension in the human mind that enables the person to be balanced, flexible, creative and magnetic. When the individual polarizes on one or the other position, that person loses the sense of balance, becomes inflexible, basically destructive, and repelling in teaching and method. The reason why our churches are not seminaries is that the truth of how Sovereign Grace works has been lost. The truth of the Faith is like dominoes. Knock one down and the rest seems likely to go...except truth is a lot more resilient than that. In fact and especially, when one is able to preserve a two-sided truth in one instance, e.g., scripture as both human and divine, God as trinity and unity, Christ as both God and man, then, sooner or later, the other truths return in their two-sided nature and then a Great Awakening follows -if bathed in prayer. Think of Predestination as an invitation. Think of Total Depravity as an invitation. Think of Unconditional Election as an invitation. Think of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption as an invitation. Think of Irresistible Grace as an Invitation. Think of Perseverance as an invitation. Think of Reprobation as an invitation. DID JESUS EVER TEACH THESE TRUTHS AS INITATIONS TO BEGIN ONE'S SPIRITUAL PILGRIMAGE, AS INVITATIONS TO BE SAVED? Reflect on Luke 4:18-30 & Mt. 15:21-28. Selah. .-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..<a href="http://thirdgreatawakeningcom.blogspot.com/2009/02/climax-of-reformation.html" rel="nofollow">The Climax of the Reformation</a> =-. In writing my thesis for the M.A. in American Social & Intellectual History on the subject, “The Baptists & Ministerial Qualifications from 1750-1850,” I found that the doctrine is basically two-sided and apparently contradictory and that is the genius of why and ho it works. The doctrine is that God qualifies a person for ministry by a call that involves both illumination and/or education. The best is a both/and as the two tend to be complementary. Their apparent contradiction sets up a tension in the human mind that enables the person to be balanced, flexible, creative and magnetic. When the individual polarizes on one or the other position, that person loses the sense of balance, becomes inflexible, basically destructive, and repelling in teaching and method. The reason why our churches are not seminaries is that the truth of how Sovereign Grace works has been lost. The truth of the Faith is like dominoes. Knock one down and the rest seems likely to go…except truth is a lot more resilient than that. In fact and especially, when one is able to preserve a two-sided truth in one instance, e.g., scripture as both human and divine, God as trinity and unity, Christ as both God and man, then, sooner or later, the other truths return in their two-sided nature and then a Great Awakening follows -if bathed in prayer. Think of Predestination as an invitation. Think of Total Depravity as an invitation. Think of Unconditional Election as an invitation. Think of Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption as an invitation. Think of Irresistible Grace as an Invitation. Think of Perseverance as an invitation. Think of Reprobation as an invitation. DID JESUS EVER TEACH THESE TRUTHS AS INITATIONS TO BEGIN ONE’S SPIRITUAL PILGRIMAGE, AS INVITATIONS TO BE SAVED? Reflect on Luke 4:18-30 & Mt. 15:21-28. Selah.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.

]]> By: Stephen Newell http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4588 Stephen Newell Thu, 09 Jul 2009 01:36:26 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4588 That might be because I am bi-vocational, work third shift and Wednesday is an office day at my church, and I have better things to do than sit on the edge of my seat waiting for people to reply to a blog comment. See, I have 2 jobs, a wife, and 2 kids and don't live with my parents blogging in my underwear. All of which you can find out with a simple Google search which actually does tell you something about me. ;-) Now, instead of playing this pity-poor game of "I'm hurt, apologize," can we do as Matt suggests and actually discuss the post? If not, I ask that the comments be closed. .-= Stephen Newell´s last blog ..<a href="http://stephennewell.com/2009/07/03/welcome-to-stephennewell-com/" rel="nofollow">Welcome to stephennewell.com!</a> =-. That might be because I am bi-vocational, work third shift and Wednesday is an office day at my church, and I have better things to do than sit on the edge of my seat waiting for people to reply to a blog comment. See, I have 2 jobs, a wife, and 2 kids and don’t live with my parents blogging in my underwear.

All of which you can find out with a simple Google search which actually does tell you something about me. ;-)

Now, instead of playing this pity-poor game of “I’m hurt, apologize,” can we do as Matt suggests and actually discuss the post? If not, I ask that the comments be closed.
.-= Stephen Newell´s last blog ..Welcome to stephennewell.com! =-.

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4578 volfan007 Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:39:14 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4578 Still no apology from Stephen Newell....oh well. David Still no apology from Stephen Newell….oh well.

David

]]> By: Matt Svoboda http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4567 Matt Svoboda Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:00:40 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4567 This is purely an attempt to get the comment thread back to talking about the post. This is purely an attempt to get the comment thread back to talking about the post.

]]> By: Todd Benkert http://sbcvoices.com/structuring-the-sbc-around-why-we-exist/#comment-4566 Todd Benkert Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:38:12 +0000 http://sbcvoices.com/?p=1615#comment-4566 BTW, Matt, my email to you this week with the same question is purely coincidence. I guess I'm not the only curious person...enquiring minds want to know. :) I too was in "excile" for several months between college and seminary. I attended, but did not join, an non-SBC Baptist Church under a kind of "watchcare" situation. It all turned out well...I met my wife there! .-= Todd Benkert´s last blog ..<a href="http://bemywitnesses.blogspot.com/2009/07/two-challenging-sermons-from-sbc.html" rel="nofollow">Two Challenging Sermons from the SBC Pastor's Conference</a> =-. BTW, Matt, my email to you this week with the same question is purely coincidence. I guess I’m not the only curious person…enquiring minds want to know. :)

I too was in “excile” for several months between college and seminary. I attended, but did not join, an non-SBC Baptist Church under a kind of “watchcare” situation. It all turned out well…I met my wife there!
.-= Todd Benkert´s last blog ..Two Challenging Sermons from the SBC Pastor’s Conference =-.

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