Okay, maybe I went over board with the title, but I think you will get my point. First of all, we should be thankful and proud of the belief we have in church autonomy. It is a unique doctrine that really sets us apart from other denominations.
So what about church autonomy can cause horror?
Easy, search committees and the pastors that are looking for a position. All of you that have been a part of a search committee or search team you know exactly what I am talking about. I have been a part of two serach committees. One of them took over 2 years and the other only took a about 6 months. Now I am seeing the other side. Awhile back I was offered a couple of different positions at different churches, but it wasn’t the right time.
Over the last few weeks my wife and I have been praying about whether or not God was leading us to begin to look for an opportunity to serve. Well, we feel that he has and now we have started praying for God’s direction.
The problem is in the practical. I say the horror of church autonomy because of the daunting task for churches and pastors to find each other. Is gonig to a website and reading a church profile really the best way to find a place to minister? There must be a better way. I was complaining the other day to my aunt about the process and then she said, ‘You should be praising God for this autonomy because this is better than being sent to people you’ve never met by people you’ve never met.’
She put me in my place. I have taken on a new attitude in this search, a godly one(about time!). So while I do appreciate the church autonomy in this process I write this post to get some opinions.
What do you all feel is the most productive way that churches should search out pastors? What is the most productive way for those called to ministry to search out a church? Those of you who have been down this road, more than I, whether on search committees or as pastors searching for a church, what advice do you give? What tips do you give to churches and pastors in this process?
{ 23 comments… read them below or add one }
Baptists are indeed blessed with church autonomy to the extent we still practice it. Megachurches that have more than half a dozen large “campuses” in which the senior pastor no longer knows most of his “flock” are every bit as unbliblical as Methodists who use bishops and district superintendents to coordinate staffing needs of a number of a churches. Slogans like “one church, 10 locations” sound suspiciously like branch banks, not the body of Christ.
how about getting a pastoor from within the church/ Pastors should be training preacher boys for the ministry. We have a ppastor, who has been here 17 years, who was brought up and nurtured within the local church.
I do not believe in stealinng another church’’s pastor
Dr. Paul Foltz
Amen bro JR, Amen.
1-200 is enough for one man to be a pastor to. When a church reaches 300, it’s time to form 2 churches out of it, and call a pastor for the 2nd work.
Sorry to be a trouble maker, but I would like to call both of the claims made already into question simply on the basis of the biblical record.
On megachurches, what is the difference between a multi-site church (which is actually what you are describing) and what was likely occurring in Jerusalem following Pentecost? Not only did Peter likely not know many in his flock, he didn’t even speak most of their languages outside of the gifting of the Holy Spirit. To go further with the question of multi-site I would recommend reading the chapter on it in Mark Driscoll’s new book Vintage Church.
On raising up your own leadership, I agree that this is a great idea and should be practiced as often as possible, but is not doing it really “stealing another church’s pastor”? How did Timothy become the pastor of Ephesus? Wasn’t he from Lystra?
Todd Buruss last blog post..America at Unrest- A Word on the Passing of John Updike
“and what was likely occurring in Jerusalem following Pentecost?”
Not hardly…
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
Timothy like Titus were raised up by Paul and placed in ministry. They were what he called, his sons. That is how they got there. Paul’s directions to Timothy leads to the natural conclusion that Timothy was to follow that pattern which Paul lived before him. Paul’s insistance was that the men who would seek Eldership/Pastor roles were to be well known to those within the body they were going to serve. That model, by the way, was the exact one that was displayed by the Lord.
In Jerusalem, it could hardly be said that there was a megachurch of any kind we know today. There were pastors a plenty and church was not being held in institutional buildings, at all, but in many venues, overseen by those who had known the Lord personally. Though undoubtedly not all the five hundred were stationed in Jerusalem, I think we can safely assume that the church there was made up of many congregations lead by many of those very men who witnessed His resurrection.
But you bring up a tangential subject about autonomy, because in Jerusalem, we had a presbytery of the Twelve, and not local autonomy, especially of the kind we find in the SBC. In the SBC, there is almost no accountability, inter-congregationally, which seems mandated by the Gospel itself, if we are to agree that there is one body, undivided. Which is why, it makes it so hard to find good help, or a good church to serve.
Foltz is correct, the best way for a church to find a replacement for the senior leader of elders is among its own, if, and a big if, it has done the Great Commision and prepared such men to assume the leadership. The worst scenario is to have a stranger institution (Seminaries) train up a pastor and send an unknown to the community of believers (one of the requisites of Eldership according to Paul is that they be known). The state of the church being what it is in the SBC, transient Pastoral leadership being the norm, we have developed a culture that does not know the “fathers” as Paul spoke of himself to Timothy (and don’t get the idea that Timothy was a yoot, he had traveled with Paul for many years, and was well trained, a young man no doubt, but not a novice at being an Elder, or he would not have met the very requisites Paul lays down). Instead, we have bred a culture that does not honor the Pastor as father and is all too willing to get rid of them. (Should we be surprised that divorce in the SBC rivals the unchurched?) And, we have created a culture where the Pastor is a hired servant who is likely to seek opportunity elsewhere, wherever the profit is the greatest, rather than service for life, he knowing that his viability as having been hired, is subject to the whim of politics, and not fitness . If you doubt what I say, just look at the stats on longevity of Pastors’ employment by autonomous churches in the SBC. Then, look for a church that has designs on long term pastoral care and that have some concept about what a truly autonomous church would do with the Great Commission with which they have been charged. It is likely that you will run into anything but. And commit yourself for life and present yourself as such.
Off subject- I often have advocated that large churches should form “export churches.” It wouldn’t be that great a deal, out of a church of ten thousand, to plant another congregation of matured adults (assuming the GC is being properly prosecuted) to a community somewhere else. Anyway, I can’t imagine the need to keep captive a congregation of thousands, when there are areas throughout the US and the world who have no such thing as a healthy church, but could, if only they would let His people go, by making exporting Great Commission congregations The Ministry of their churches rather than the country club ministries generally found in association with them.
Back on Subject, sort of…. “Not only did Peter likely not know many in his flock, he didn’t even speak most of their languages outside of the gifting of the Holy Spirit. ” But then he didn’t need to, he spoke with one mouth and they heard in their own language, and I wouldn’t doubt that Peter was similarly gifted to hear in his own language what they spoke to him in theirs. “To go further with the question of multi-site I would recommend reading the chapter on it in Mark Driscoll’s new book Vintage Church.” The problem here of course in accountability which takes personal involvement in the personal lives of the persons over whom we have been given charge and will be held accountable for, as the overseers of their very souls. Something which Driscoll’s form of church can never do. But then, accountability is not his forte’. Taking into account that Peter was of the presbytery and not the leader of a local church, per se, and was an evangelist, more than overseer, seeing it was James and not Peter who was the assumed leader of the presbytery of the church(es) at Jerusalem, and seeing as Peter was the one who commanded followers to honor the episcopos, it seems unlikely that Peter himself would not have known at least his own charges well.
Not that I want to be a trouble-maker, either, Todd
Your Aunt said: “You should be praising God for this autonomy because this is better than being sent to people you’ve never met by people you’ve never met.”
But, you know what Matt, this is precisely the problem that you are facing. The fact that the congregations are autonomous in the SBC sense means no standards but the local standards, no inter-church Disciplines (discipleship with the view of reproducing leaders), that would equally qualify pastors. Instead, the best that local autonomy can offer, is autonomy, and if you don’t fit, it is because you are indeed a stranger to their autonomy. It is autonomy itself that breds the estrangement. And isn’t it the fact that you will most likely be being sent by those who, as the result of short-term relationships, really barely know you? And isn’t it the truth, that the congregation that you will go to will have no clue as to who you are for at least a decade or more after you are hired? One of the things about a presbyterian system, (laying the prejudice aside) at least, is that you are getting a person who has been confirmed in the doctrines they are bringing. In that, at minimum, is more relationship than you will ever find in a so called autonomous system. And if you think you are going to be known through the interview process, you are being naive. You will be the subject of doubt and distrust for a long time afterwards. And in kind, you will be suspicious and tenuous, always subject to fear of being fired if you fail to meet the prevailing standards of an autonomous congregation. Sucks huh?
In crafting a constitution, and others have advocated this, I desired that a candidate should be brought in for long term inquiry and adjustment. Six months is suggested by many, but I am not sure that even begins to be adequate. In any event, try to get to know the prospect well, Paul would say to Timothy. The problem Matt, is that we now approach the Ministry as a career and interview and hire in a manner that is not much different from the world. Who knows if it will work out? So, approach it the best way possible in keeping with what Paul would have Timothy do: get to know the people, and get them to know you.
If you can at all, and you believe yourself strong enough to, I would suggest that you plant your own church. Get to know men who are sound in the faith, if God so supplies, (remember Carrie, it is no easy task to build a church), establish a leadership core, and begin the process of discipling younger men to assume your position when you are no longer fit to do the job so that they and the church you father will not have to go through what you are now. Remember, the churches that exist all had there beginning with someone who was called by God to pastor. If you are are called, the beginning and continuance of a flock is what you will produce whether you are the church’s first pastor or its latest.
Thomas Twitchells last blog post..Who Laid Down His Life? Not MLK.
Matt,
How can a preacher find a church to pastor?
1. Go to association meetings. Get to know the Director of Missions, pastors, and laymen in the association. Let them know you are available to preach. Don’t just go once; attend on a regular basis.
2. Be the best, most positive, most faithful member your pastor has. If you miss a worship service, let your pastor know why. Pastors aren’t impressed with a young preacher that misses half the church services.
3. Never turn down a chance to preach unless already scheduled somewhere else. If you have to say no – explain why, apologize, and tell them you’d appreciate them calling you again next time they’re looking for a preacher.
4. Attend area Revivals, Bible Conferences, Evangelism Conferences. Get to know the pastors and evangelists.
5. Put your resume on the internet, at local Baptist Association offices, schools, state conventions, etc.
6. Subscribe to one or more Baptist State papers. Read the section telling of pastors resigning a church to go to another. Ask a preacher friend to send your resume to that pastorless church.
7. Pray and depend on God. But God works through people and you need to make all the positive contacts possible.
David R. Brumbelow
THOMAS TWICHELL; Thank you for your kind words.
check out my blogs listed under;
freegracepreacher@blogspot.com
My two cents is only to be in constant prayer and be willing to go where God SENDS you, even if it isn’t a place you had in mind..
God bless you in your search!
Sallie
Sallies last blog post..Coupon Alert!!!
David,
Great points of advice.
Todd,
I am going to have to agree with both of your points. I think calling mega-churches or multisite churches as unbiblical as Methodists is quite a stretch. Also the accusation that not raising your own pastors is somehow ’stealing’ from other churches is a little ridiculous as well.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..thoughts?
matt and todd you both are wrong and all wet. After 45 years in the ministry I have seen all types of churches and preachers.
And Imust strongly disagree and come against your mutual admiration society.
Paul and Thomas,
Interesting that there seems to be a generational divide here, no? I do not buy into the grounds with which you are trying to deny what I have said from the Bible.
Thomas, you try and discount Peter’s role in Jerusalem by saying he “was of the presbytery and not the leader of a local church, per se, and was an evangelist, more than overseer.” This is fancy language, but it seems more an issue of polity in determining what the role of the elder really is and not biblical accuracy. Taking Driscoll for example (which, btw, I do not appreciate the asinine shots at him. Is it really necessary?) we see that his multi-site model is executed under the care of a board of elders, all qualifying through the qualifications given in 1 Timothy 3.1-7 and Titus 1.5-9. Sure, if he was trying to handle this under the senior pastor model then there would undoubtedly be unheard voices, but using the board of elders model (which I would argue is a more accurate polity to what is prescribed in Scripture) the pastors of Mars Hill Church are able to provide oversight for every person in the larger flock. Each campus has its own elders, its owns overseers if you will, each capable themselves of teaching (1 Timothy 3.2), and it is simply that Driscoll serves as the primary, unified teaching pastor over all locales. This still does not seem too dissimilar from how you assume the church of Jerusalem was executed.
Also, on the issue of raising up pastors, I agree with you whole-heartedly that it is necessary for a pastor to be “known” by the church that calls him. There are several things which the church should know about him and make sure he is meeting before determining him qualified to lead their congregation. But, as was the case with Timothy and Titus, this can happen the same with an outsider as it can with someone inside the church, though maybe it requires more footwork and searching on the part of any unblessed committee assigned to find him. You say, “Paul’s insistance was that the men who would seek Eldership/Pastor roles were to be well known to those within the body they were going to serve. That model, by the way, was the exact one that was displayed by the Lord.” But didn’t Christ raise up uneducated Galileans to shepherd the church which started in Jerusalem? Paul gave us the list of qualifications, and no where in there does it say anything about their place of spiritual origin. Would we be best to pull from trusted sources? Sure. But does that mean within? I find no evidence that that is what’s intended at any point.
Both you guys appeal to your experience in SBC churches. That is an area that you have me in. But this isn’t an argument through our system, it’s an statement on what the Bible says, and I do not think we can make the claims you have about large churches and leadership raising based on the biblical accounts. Experience may have convinced you of certain preferences, but I think those go further than just Scripture will allow, and so should be evaluated in light of such.
May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Todd Buruss last blog post..America at Unrest- A Word on the Passing of John Updike
The biblical imagery used for pastors involves shepherding. However, evangelical megachurch pastors, including several local ones who claim to believe in biblical inerrancy, explicitly deny the validity of the biblical shepherding image and instead say (their words, not mine) that they are “ranchers,” whatever that precisely means. There is a very obvious problem with that that even seminary students ought to be able to readily spot. It goes like this:
One of the things Jesus says, as the Good Shepherd (not the “Good Rancher”), is that “my sheep know my voice.” There is a familiar intimacy to that. In contrast, hard-driving, corporate-minded megachurch CEOs don’t even know the names of most of their sheep (or particularly care to, unless the sheep are big name, big money, big draw types) and wouldn’t recognize their voices if their lives depended on it. One of the local megachurch boys has said, in my hearing, that he will never spend his precious time preaching a funeral service for a member of his church unless the deceased was “at least a deacon.” Some shepherd. Some church.
Talk all you want about ranching and delegation, but God’s inerrant Word says S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D, and the last time I read my copy of the Bible, it applies to pastors from ages 18 to 80–no generational divide stated or even implied. Shepherds know their flock. Megachurch pastors, once you get beyond the folks they consider worthy of their time and attention, do not–and that is in direct defiance of the Bible. That’s reality, folks. If the Bible is not a sufficient authority for you in this matter, one of your Puritans–Richard Baxter–makes the same point about the care of souls quite well in his timeless classic The Reformed Pastor (see also Ichabod Spencer’s A Pastor’s Sketches, Anthony J. Pappas’ Entering the World of the Small Church and the definitive relevant work, Os Guinness’s Dining with the Devil: The Megachurch Movement Flirts with Modernity).
JR MUELLER;
You hit the bullseye. Aman can’t shepherd a group larger than 150.
Dr. Paul Foltz
” Aman can’t shepherd a group larger than 150.”
In case anyone is wondering, this is a direct quote from 1 Pragmaticals 2:3.
Can’t we all just admit the Bible doesn’t say one way or the other on this issue, and that’s why we’re forced to push our personal preferences as fact. Who on earth qualified anyone to set the number at 150? That’s just an opinion. If it’s based on experience, fine. But don’t try to justify it from the 1611.
Darby Livingstons last blog post..Should All Christians Homeschool?
Dr. Foltz,
You say a man can’t shepherd a group larger than 150… What about a board of elders?
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Chaos vs. Contemplation: A Gospel Meditation on Psalm 48
dear Bro. Matt.
A board of elders would be fine.
Dr. Foltz,
If there was a board of elders with multiple pastors, which is the case in most of the churches you mention, then a church could be quite large and still ’shepherd’ all of its congregants.
Matt Svobodas last blog post..Chaos vs. Contemplation: A Gospel Meditation on Psalm 48
Good points everyone…
Now Concerning Shepherding:
I think at the heart of this issue is our desire to experience true “Christian Community”.
And if the truth be told in the vast majority of our churches we are not experiencing anything even close to what the early church experienced. Our focus has changed from being a “Community of Believers” to being members of a “Religious Organization” (insert your church name here).
Part of the problem with Pastors not shepherding the members anymore (like in the good old days Dr. Foltz) is that the vast majority of our members today do not want to be shepherded. They want to come to church on Sunday morning once or twice a month and then be left alone the rest of the time. They feel that if they attend church on Sunday morning every now and then they have done their duty to God and really have no time for anything else.
Another issue to consider is the fact that many of our churches are filled with “Unregenerate Members”. You can shepherd Sheep, as the Sheep will love their Shepherd… But you simply can’t shepherd Goats, and if you try you are bound to butt heads with them at every turn.
Grace Always,
Greg Alfords last blog post..Pastors and Concealed Weapons
Bro Greg,
You said ”The vast majority of church members today don’t want to be
shephered.” One of these things are then true;
1. IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE GOATS. They made a profession, or a decision,
and were told they were saved when they’re not. one sign of a believer is an
intense hunger for the things of God.
2. Also, since the average church doesnot teach the word in depth any more, and
THE AVERAGE PREACHER STUDIIES VERY LITTLE, they grow tired of
hearing the same old things repeated over again and again.
3. Lack of priorities in their life. One serves what he loves or wants to serve.
In His Grace
Bro. Paul
Well said, Paul. You pointed out both the responsibility of the sheep to accept shepherding and the responsibility of the shepherd to feed the sheep. I can’t tell you how many times people from other churches say they hear the same sermon every week. You’ve probably heard that much more than me being in ministry longer. Let’s all pray together that those we serve can’t tell other pastors that about us!
Darby Livingstons last blog post..Iceland Revisited
There have been some very thoughtful responses here, and lest anyone think I’m uniformly opposed to megachurches, they of course do a great deal of good despite the ecclesiology problems. I should know–I was on the staff of one for seven years, was always blessed with very good evaluations and left of my own accord to do ministry elsewhere when I felt the Holy Spirit’s prompting. However, in hindsight, I simply cannot view a megachurch, particularly one that does a lot of “branch banking,” as the preferred biblical option. At least let’s be rigorously honest and stop talking about local autonomy. A branch-bank church in Spencer County has absolutely no koinonia with its umbrella corporation’s southern Indiana branch, other than having a similar name on their road signs; not one in a hundred members at one of those locations would know a member at the other one. They are de facto separate congregations being run unilaterally by one Baptist bishop, and I really don’t see how that’s any different at all from a Methodist honcho sitting in his (or, with them, her) organization’s corporate headquarters giving orders to several dozen of their not-so-autonomous churches. I am cautious, in general, about the “independent Baptists” going too far about not wanting to network with one another, but despite their sometimes bellicose tone, those guys are a lot closer, biblically, to the truth on this particular point than I believe the megachurches are. When they get to a certain point–their magic number is not necessarily 150, but it’s a lot less than 10,000–they divide up and start a new church. A church where the shepherd actually is willing to preach funerals and do weddings and visit his sheep when they are in the hospital.
I’m all for calling pastors from among the local congregation. My own church has tended toward that in recent years.
As for mega churches, I haven’t seen the satellite phenomenon in our area, but we do have a few large churches. My brother’s church in a nearby town has an attendance of several thousand. He couldn’t talk to the pastor if he wanted to.
My church has 1200+ in attendance every Sunday. We’d have a hard time finding a place nearby for a new church to reduce our size. There are three other SBC churches within a mile of several hundred members each. Expand the radius to 5 miles and I’d have to think a while to discover how many there were. That doesn’t include the independent Baptists the independent non-Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Pentecostals, Churches of Christ, etc. all within the same area.
What makes us a little different than most are the things like calling people from among us to be our full-time ministerial and support staff and focusing heavily on evangelistic outreach in the area (with all these churches, there are still plenty who have never heard the gospel or who need to plug into a local congregation to grow in their walk) and sending missionaries around the world on long- and short-term evangelistic missions. It’s amazing how God can raise up people to accomplish his purposes. Another church in our area is all but dead and they can’t find a pastor among their denomination. However, I know the people of this church and I know that there is a godly man who has been growing in the Lord, studying the Bible diligently, teaching and even preaching some. However, because he didn’t grow up in the church, had a rough lifestyle before salvation, isn’t of high station to even be considered for the church council, hasn’t been to one of the denominational seminaries and been formally ordained they wouldn’t consider him. He doesn’t seek to be pastor for these same reasons, but he and his family are already ministering to the congregation that’s there. It’s a shame they think they have to look around at the older brothers while David the shepherd is already out in the field with the sheep. (On top of that, he’s a construction laborer and needs a job.) God has provided, but the provision may rot in the field.
With regard to the function of the church we need to be in the business, not of goading people to work in our programs, but of identifying God’s provision in the raw gifts he has already provided in our local congregations and building them into ministers – not only for staff positions, but also as fellow church members called to God’s purposes in whatever vocation he has placed them.
Jim Pembertons last blog post..So Quote This
Church autonomy is a truth that is wonderful until one falls foul of the obtuse nature of church members. Virtually any doctrine of the bible has its downside due to the difficulty of the bleak lack of knowledge on the part of ministers and members. One is imminently blessed who can remember to separate the truth under consideration from the contradictions to it offered by individual members. African Americans (Black Americans when I was working in that field of history) have a lot to teach us about the problem. They saw the immense contradictions between the doctrines professed and practice made evident. Try over 12 years of being without a place of service and even the opportunity of employment. Talk about grief! Black history always gave me nightmares. How could belivers do what our ancestors did to those folks? It is because of the ideas that dominate one’s mind. God might well have some very difficult days ahead for His people in order that they might learn humility. Still my prayer is that we might come to that time, when the Lord will be pleased to grant us both His theology and His presence in our worship services. I speak of course of a Third Great Awakening, one which will take the whole earth in one generation and perhaps for a 1000 generations.
Dr. James Willinghams last blog post..A preternatural and invisible hand