The Kingdom Family Gathering (by Dwight McKissic)

by Guest Blogger on March 4, 2014 · 73 comments

THE KINGDOM FAMILY GATHERING, 2014
A Gathering for a New Millennium
BY
WILLIAM DWIGHT MCKISSIC, SR.

Waiting in the baggage claim area at the Washington, DC, Airport, I made eye contact with a gentleman who paused, looked at me, then looked at a picture that he was holding in his hand, looked at me again, and then he continued to walk pass me. He made his way around to me again and repeated the previous actions; only this time before proceeding without speaking, he paused to ask—“Are you Rev. Dwight McKissic?” I said, “Yes!” He then said, “You don’t look like your picture.” My assistant had mailed Pastor T.L. Rogers an outdated picture. Therefore, he was having a difficult time recognizing me based on the differences between my then current look and the outdated picture.

When the world visits today’s church and pause to compare today’s church with the church in the Bible, the world could easily say, “the church today does not look like her biblical picture.” In this post I want to examine three angles of one picture of the early church and compare and contrast it with today’s church. I also want to notify and invite Kingdom citizens from throughout America to come and spend 3-4 days at the Cornerstone Church, Arlington, TX, March 13-16, 2014, for a Kingdom Family Gathering, co-hosted and co-sponsored by Jack Taylor Ministries and the Cornerstone Church, Arlington, TX. During these four days we believe that we will experience a picture of the church as she was during the day of Scripture.

Today’s church is divided denominationally. The biblical picture of the church is a church that’s unified as “one body” (Ephesian 4:3).

Today’s church is divided over the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. The biblical picture of the church is a church unified by “one Spirit” (Ephesian 4:4).

Today’s church is divided into various theological camps and affinity groups. The biblical picture of the church is unified around, “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:5-6).

Today’s church is divided by race. The biblical picture of the church consisted of people gathered from every nation (Acts 2:5; 13:1).

Today’s church battles and debates over the Holy Spirit. The biblical picture of the church shows people worshipping, praying, guided by, preaching, serving and giving in the Spirit (Acts 2, Acts 4:31-35, Acts 13:2).

Today’s church is often under the illusion and impression that God has ceased operating in all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in the Bible. The biblical picture of the church shows that the Kingdom of God has come upon His church when we see the power, manifestation, and activity of God among His people (Matthew 12:27; Mark 9:1; I Corinthians 1:7, I Corinthians 12-14).

Today’s church has conferences to announce and boldly proclaim that the activity of God in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit have ceased among His people. The picture of the biblical church was to gather and pray to God on one accord, at one time and to ask God to:

29 “…grant to Your [His] servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.” (Acts 4:29-31)

Jack Taylor, an 80-year-old Spirit-filled Southern Baptist Preacher; Bill Johnson, a non-denominational Redding, CA, pastor; Dwight Mckissic, a Kingdom-centered Baptist pastor; and Wayne Chaney, a younger generation, African American, Southern Baptist who pastors a dynamic church in Southern California, are coming together to host, “The Kingdom Family Gathering” in a few days. We are praying that the auditorium with a seating capacity of 1600 to be filled with people of every kindred, tribe, tongue, and nation. We are also praying that the people will be filled with the Spirit of the Living God.

When the Kingdom Family gathers we expect a vital unity that’s empowered by God’s Spirit as it was on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1). We expect the life and vitality of God in our midst to be the hallmark of this gathering.

When the Kingdom Family gathers, we expect a visual unity of God’s people. If no other miracle takes place, if we can gather for our evening services a healthy inter-racial mix and balance of Whites, Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics, surely the Kingdom of God has come in our midst. We expect as was on the day of Pentecost a visual unity that’s Holy Spirit orchestrated in our midst (Acts 2:2-3).

When the Kingdom Family gathers, we expect a verbal unity that’s Holy-Spirit anointed to be manifest in our midst. We expect glorious praise, powerful preaching, words of exhortation, wisdom and knowledge and the glory of the Lord in our midst. We are believing God to show up in our midst as He promised He would, and join us in our sacrifice of praise to Him.

God called out a people, later named Israel, so that He could introduce His people to His Kingdom. The theme of the Bible is about a King, His Kingdom, and His royal offspring. God called out His Kingdom Family, in order to bestow blessings of abundant and eternal life, on His people, through the gift of His Son. God wanted a family that He might receive worship in Spirit and Truth, from all the people of the earth. God wanted a family, that’s why He told us to call Him, Father.

God is not color blind. He made the colors, because He loved them. God even made His people different colors, because He loves them, and considers all of His people beautiful. God is pleased when people of all colors come together and worship Him. There is a special dynamic in the atmosphere when worship crosses all color lines. This will be a taste of Heaven on earth.

At the beginning of the first millennium, God gathered His Family in Noah’s Ark, in order to preserve the human family, so that He might bless them.  “And God blessed Noah and his sons” (Genesis 9: 1). Genesis 9: 19, says that all mankind—regardless of color—emanated from the sons of Noah. In the loins of Noah’s sons, and their wives, was every race known to man. “And God blessed Noah and his sons.”  God blessed His family gathered. He even wanted to bless them in unity scattered.

After disembarking from the ark, God told His Kingdom family—Noah and Mrs. Noah, their sons and wives—that He wanted them to scatter, multiply, and fill the earth (Genesis 9: 1, 7). They indeed multiplied, but they didn’t scatter and they did not fill the earth.

Instead they gathered at the Tower of Babel, against the will of God, and God then, sovereignly chose to scatter them (Genesis 11: 1-9). But even then, God kept the family theme intact. They gathered at the Tower as one people, speaking one language (Genesis 11: 1).

They scattered from the tower, speaking different languages, and divided into three different human families, and settling and separating themselves from each other in three different lands, based on how they  traced their family blood lines or lineage, back to one of Noah’s three sons(Genesis 10: 5, 20, 31, 32).

Rather than scattering across the world interracially,  cross culturally, cross pollinated, and fill the earth, as God had instructed them (Genesis 9), they scattered exclusively based on family blood lines traced back to Noah’s three sons. The world has been divided by race and language ever since.

Chronologically speaking, we know that the historical event in Genesis 11 (the Tower of Babel incident) occurred before the census bureau-cataloging event of Genesis 10, the Table of the Nations.

In Genesis 12, God told Abraham that He wanted to bless the families of the earth through him. The theme of Genesis 9, 10, 11, and 12 is family and family blessing.  God wanted to bless the families of the earth so that they would bless Him back, and bless His Kingdom.

After thousands of years of living scattered and separated from each other, God brought His Kingdom Family from all over the earth together again at Pentecost (Acts 2: 5). They came from every nation under the sun. They came from Africa, Asia, and Europe.

They gathered at Babel in pride; they gathered at Pentecost in humility. They gathered at Babel prayer-less; they gathered at Pentecost prayerful. They gathered at Babel and God confused their language; they gathered at Pentecost and they understood each other’s language. They scattered from Babel in disunity; they gathered at Pentecost with all on one accord, and they left on one accord (Acts 2: 1). They gathered at Babel in a building made by man’s hands,   against the will of God. They gathered at Pentecost in a building orchestrated by the hand of God.

Will you please come and join us in these days of seeking God’s face. If the world ever needed to see the church in vital unity, visual unity, and verbal unity, it is right now. Please visit www.kingdomfamilygathering.org for more information concerning registration for the conference, schedule, and speakers:

  1. BILL JOHNSON, pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California.
  2. LEIF HETLAND, founder and president of Global Mission Awareness.
  3. DWIGHT MCKISSIC, senior pastor of Cornerstone Baptist Church in Arlington, TX.
  4. WAYNE CHANEY, the senior pastor of Antioch Church in Los Angeles, California.
  5. BOB PHILLIPS, the father to many spiritual sons and God’s Kingdom emissary to the Body of Christ
  6. PAUL YADAO, the lead pastor of Destiny Ministries International in Los Baños, Laguna, Philippines.
  7. DENNIS JERNIGAN, an inspiring worship leader and gifted songwriter whose focus in ministry has been to help the spiritually captive get set free.
  8. TOM DAVIS,  a gifted worship leader and founder of Amber Rose Ministries through which he produces live worship recordings and worship albums that bring healing and life.
  9. KEITH LUKER, and his wife, Sanna, are prophetic psalmist revivalists and the founders of FreeWind, a prophetic worship ministry dedicated to seeing the tabernacle of David restored in this generation.

 

 

1 darren casper March 4, 2014 at 2:39 pm

Brother Dwight,

Looks to be a fantastic meeting. I certainly wish I was able to attend. Do you know if recordings of the teaching/sessions will be online later?

thanks,
Darren

2 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 6:49 pm

Darren,

The primary sponsors and planners of this meeting is Jack Taylor Ministries. But I am sure there will be recordings available through his ministry or ours. My people have met with his people to plan details of which I am unaware of. If you contact my office and let me know exactly what you want from the meeting, I will make sure we get that to you. As The Lord lays it upon your heart, please pray for God’s blessings to rest upon this gathering. Thanks for your encouragement.

3 Tarheel March 4, 2014 at 3:12 pm

Dwight,

I am probably going to regret asking this…but I cannot resist…

Would you kindly elaborate on these descriptions, please?

“BOB PHILLIPS, the father to many spiritual sons and God’s Kingdom emissary to the Body of Christ ”

and

“KEITH LUKER, and his wife, Sanna, are prophetic psalmist revivalists and the founders of FreeWind, a prophetic worship ministry dedicated to seeing the tabernacle of David restored in this generation.”

4 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 7:03 pm

Tarheel,

Glad that you asked. As I said to Darren, the Jack Taylor Ministries are the primary sponsors, the designers and architects of the program and the verbiage on the promotions. Therefore, I can only tell you what I think is meant by the language that you asked about.
Keep in mind, this is a Kingdom Gathering, not an SBC gathering. Therefore, some of the phraseology mentioned may not be typical SBC terminology.

With regard to Bob Phillips, I take the words there to mean exactly what they say. I am not sure what aspect of the description or biographical data regarding Pastor Bob that you are inquiring about; or find difficult to comprehend. He is the father to many spiritual sons in God’s Kingdom, and a emissary to the body of Christ. Emissary means “an agent or messenger, sent on a mission.” Which part of the father/son statement, or, the “emissary statement,” that you don’t understand?

5 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 7:18 pm

Tarheel,

With regard to Keith Luker and his wife, again; this is a Kingdom Gathering, not an SBC gathering. Therefore, some of the verbiage used may be non typical SBC verbiage.

Prophecy means a particular truth, for a particular person or people, at a particular time, based on, or not in violation of,particular text. I suppose it’s the “prophetic worship,” and “prophetic Psalmist,” phraseology that you are inquiring about? If so, in SBC parlance, we would say, “Music Evangelist,” or Minister of Music. Music Evangelist and Music/Worship Ministers lead us to sing to melody, particular truths, for particular persons or people, at a particular time, based on particular text. I trust that I have satisfactorily answered your question. Thanks.

6 andy March 4, 2014 at 9:30 pm

I was also wondering similar things, specifically:

1. Why one person is listed as “God’s emissary”? it makes it sound as if no one else is….which I would think every Christian should be.

2. What does it mean that they want to see the tabernacle of David restored.

7 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 10:05 pm

andy,

God’s emissary is just another way of saying “God’s man.” We’ve found God’s man is a common expression in Baptist circles. God’s emissary is a synonymous term.

“The Tabernacle of David” is an expression denoting the six items in the tabernacle & how they relate to worship. If you identify & study these items, it will be apparent to you how they relate to worship.

Thanks for your questions, Andy. If my answers aren’t thorough enough let me know & I’ll try again.

8 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 10:10 pm

Andy,

emissary & ambassador are kingdom terminology. Ambassador is also a Pauline term to describe believer and their role as emissaries or ambassadors of the kingdom. We believe that there is value in using biblical & kingdom language, as disciples of the kingdom of God(Matthew 13: 51,52).

9 Tarheel March 5, 2014 at 3:24 am

“Prophecy means a particular truth, for a particular person or people, at a particular time, based on, or not in violation of, particular text.”

Does this mean that they prophesy “new truths” in addition to revealed scripture?

You answered my emissary questions with your response to Andy.

Thank you for answering.

10 Dwight McKissic March 5, 2014 at 8:40 am

Tarheel,

Absolutely not. If prophecy contradicted or added to the Bible, it would violate the last couple of verses in the Bible that warns us not to add or take away from anything written in the Bible.

BTW, I learned that definition of prophecy at SWBTS from Dr. Jack Gray in 1981 or ’82. I embellished it some with the reference to the biblical text. My point is that is not some wild-eyed Charismania definition of prophecy.

Prophecy is more about forth telling, not foretelling. Prophecy is more like a rhema word, moreso than the logos word. Prophecy is a message in song, sermon, speech, testimony, or however it comes, that speaks to a need in your life, or addresses a concern that you have. It is a particular truth, for a particular person or people, based on a particular text(s), at a particular time. It does not add to, or contradict the Scripture. If that happened, it wouldn’t be prophecy. Great questions Tarheel. Be glad to answer others. I would like to meet you. Please come to the meeting. I go to cessationist gatherings. Surely you can visit a continuationist gathering. This meeting has been held in Houston the last two years. I’ve attended. I’m yet to hear anyone publicly speak in tongues at this meeting. I don’t anticipate that changing. Most if the attendees are Southern Baptist, or have Southen Baptist backgrounds.

11 Tarheel March 5, 2014 at 10:06 am

Can’t.

With plans to attend T4G and the SBC annual meeting – I’m all tapped out on conventions/gatherings for this spring and summer.

Thanks though.

12 Rick Mang March 4, 2014 at 4:08 pm

Kingdom Brother Dwight:

I wish that I could be in Arlington for this event. In fact, I will be there in spirit! My prayers are for the success and blessing of this gathering.

Your kingdom brother Rick

13 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 7:20 pm

Rick,

Thanks. I could ask for nothing more. Please pray that God’s Kingdom will come and reign over us, and manifest Himself to us during our time together.

14 John Wylie March 4, 2014 at 5:24 pm

Hey Brother,
I will do my best to be there for a couple of days.

15 Dwight McKissic March 4, 2014 at 7:23 pm

Brother John,

Look forward to seeing you with keen anticipation. Let me know if there is anything that I can do to encourage and bless you with your time among us. Thanks for your friendship. This meeting will be a blessing.

16 John Wylie March 4, 2014 at 8:04 pm

Thank you Brother.

17 jtilson March 8, 2014 at 9:12 am

Just a question Pastor McKissic. Have you checked out any of these people whom you seem to imply that you do not know?

I would think a site such as http://www.apologeticsindex.com could show you that Bill Johnson is a heretic. Even if he should bring your church showers of gold dust and angel feathers his theology of Jesus Christ is abberant. The Taylors too were laughing their way to Toronto a few years back.

No I will not be attending, thank God!

18 Dwight McKissic March 8, 2014 at 12:01 pm

Jtilson,

I did not see the link or reference to Bill Johnson regarding aberrant theology related to the person & work of Jesus Christ. I will search further. Could you be more specific and site specifics about what BJ has taught about Christ that was abberant? Are you using the word “abberant” as a synonym for heretical?

As far as “the Taylor’s…laughing….Toronto” experience: is it really a theological issue or departure from truth or orthodoxy that Jack Taylor may have been laughing in church? I don’t know this to be a fact. I’m learning this from you. But if it is true, why would this be a concern? Where’s the crime? Doesn’t the Spirit manifest or produce joy in the believers life? Isn’t laughter sometimes a by-product of joy? All of my life in Baptist churches, I have observed certain congregants “laughing” or uttering expressions of joy, excitement, or laughter like expressions, at certain times during the worship experience. I don’t find that a stretch, unreasonable, unbiblical, or without precedent. Doesn’t the Scripture sort of imply, or dies not exclude that the believers behavior on the day of Pentecost was likened unto a drunken person? Is not it sometimes a characteristic of a drunken person to engage in seemingly irrational laughter at times? Please help me understand your seeming repulsion to a believe laughing in church as an act of worship influenced by the Holy Spirit? Have you read Morgan Edwards account if the worship experience of the Sandy Creek Baptists, the from whence came the SBC? Edwards described their worship services as including “estatcy” and if memory serves me correctly, he also recorded that it included “laughter.” It was quite dramatic. Again, help me understand your objection to this biblical, historical, and in some documented cases-Baptist practice?

As to Bill Johson and the gold dust and other matters you mention, I have not read about these things. Again, I will research this. I have sat an listened to him preach full length sermons twice, and I heard absolutely nothing that even bordered abberant theology. I was blessed and refreshed by his preaching. So again, if you know of a specific abberant teaching of his that you can document, please provide it, and also explain what makes that teaching abberant in your judgement. Thanks.

19 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 12:25 pm
20 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 12:46 pm
21 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 1:03 pm

The presence of God in the “gold dust cloud”….. YouTube video from johnson’s church without commentary…just him talking and the “manifestation”.

Complete with children opening thier mouths and sticking out thief tongues to “catch it” like they would snowflakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvJMPccZR2Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player.

22 jtilson March 8, 2014 at 1:11 pm

Thank you Tarheel. There is so much out there in the youtube videos, the sites you linked, and other apologetic sites such as CARM.

Dwight I will allow you to study the aforementioned to see if you still have the same questions. I am rather busy today but will be back as time allows.

Thanks for understanding.

23 Dwight McKissic March 8, 2014 at 1:16 pm

Tarheel,

I am out of town at the moment, but will catch a plane returning home at 6pm. At 1st opportunity I will review these links. Thanks.

Suffice it to say at this point, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 13 no one has perfect theology. I find the cessationism, unbiblical restrictions on women, the absence if prophetic voices against stand your ground laws, and the unrepentant curse of Ham teaching by Dr. & Mrs. Criswell and the SBC as equally, if not more aggrigious(sp) as the items the earlier commenter mentioned. Therefore, it I were to reject others because of imperfect theology, I would start with the chauvinism and cessationism, and lack of social justice prophetic voice in the SBC.

24 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 1:32 pm

Dwight,

I don’t disagree with all of the red herrings invoked in that last post…but they’re red herrings just the same.

Let’s try and stay on topic, please.

Bill Johnson is an heretic. Period.

25 Dave Miller March 8, 2014 at 2:10 pm

It is not the right of commenters to determine the “topic” of a post or a discussion stream, nor to issue rebukes to the post’s author in such a way.

I’m not a fan of Bill Johnson, but I am not ready to declare him a “heretic” either. I’ve not studied his views closely enough to determine that he is a servant of Satan seeking to undermine faith in Christ.

But I am ready to say that you are not authorized to determine what is and is not appropriate for discussion here, Tarheel.

26 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 2:38 pm

But, wait….I’m not allowed to opine on a commercial post and try to keep his direct responses to me on topic to my opine? I responded to his attempting to change the subject…which is exactly what he attempted to do.

Numerous others do that….with no rebuke.

I know what I did wrong here, and its nothing i did in this thread….and that won’t happen again, Mr. Miller. I should have known better.

27 Dave Miller March 8, 2014 at 4:20 pm

I have no idea what you are talking about. But it would not hurt you to tone down your rhetoric a little.

28 John Wylie March 8, 2014 at 1:52 pm

The tenor of this conversation is alarming. I for one have an immense respect for Pastor McKissic. Curt responses are just rude guys.

jtilson said, “No I will not be attending, thank God!”

Tarheel , you said, ” Bill Johnson is an heretic. Period.”

Do you not see that these responses are simply rude while Pastor McKissic has been respectful in his responses. Please reciprocate his demeanor in this conversation. We are brothers.

29 Dave Miller March 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm

I am disturbed by the general attitude and behavior of the entire “discernment” industry. Yes, we need biblical discernment, but ought “biblical” discernment also produce the Fruit of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc – instead of what we so often see?

30 Christiane March 10, 2014 at 12:02 am

yes

31 Dwight McKissic March 8, 2014 at 2:28 pm

Tarheel,

I will not attempt to defend everything Bill Johnson has ever said. You are obviously free to view him as a heretic. Again, the two messages that I’ve heard him preach were orthodox and prophetic.

Bill Johnson believes in the deity of Christ. He believes Jesus is Lord. He is a citizen of the Kingdom of God.

Jerry Falwell called Calvinist heretics. Tarheel, you apoear to me to be a Calvinist, though I may be wrong. My point is, just because somebody call you a heretic, does not make you a heretic.

The greatest example of heretical teaching that I have heard recently came from the Strange Fire Conference. For JM to uphold Calvinist as the doctrinal police of evangelicalism was heretical in and of itself. For JM to believe that charismatic Christians are deceived and the most dangerous threat to evangelicalism is heresy.

I am willing to listen to imperfect servants even in their theology, if their heart is in the right place, and they are pursuing God, hungry for God, desperate for God. I find Bill Johnson to be more orthodox than JM.

32 Tarheel March 8, 2014 at 2:42 pm

“I find Bill Johnson to be more orthodox than JM.”

That’s absolutely ridiculous!

However, I’ve been told that Im not allowed to respond, Dwight.

So I won’t comment further in this thread.

33 Dave Miller March 8, 2014 at 4:27 pm

That is ridiculous, bordering on childish. You were not told you could not comment. You were confronted on your tone as you rebuked the author of the post for not staying on the topic you set.

Govern your tone a little and all will be well.

34 Dwight McKissic March 8, 2014 at 3:25 pm

Tarheel,

For the sake of truth, you were not told that you couldn’t comment on my post. You were told that you could not tell me how to comment. Your statement misrepresented the facts. Commenting, or not commenting is obviously your choice. But, please tell the truth.

35 jtison March 10, 2014 at 9:07 am

Good morning Dwight. I trust you had a good weekend and are rested a little from your travels.

Forgive me please for being succinct. I still have things to do.

The issue is what Bill Johnson says about deity and divinity. He says he believes in the deity of Christ but that Christ put aside his divinity while walking the earth and did all his Works as an ordinary man exercising the annointing of faith. (that is a summation, not an exact quote)

As you know, this is an unorthodox undoing of the two natures of Christ. May I suggest to you a couple more sites where you can find this discussion? Try http://www.echozoe.com and you the Search box for Bill Johnson. For a thorough discussion by a Charismatic writer, Dr. Stephen Lambert, go to http://www.spiritlifemag.com and again use the Search box for Bill Johnson. I would hope that Dave Miller might peruse these sites as well, assuming that he might want to be brought up to date.

Thank you for your time.

36 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 10, 2014 at 4:56 pm

jtison,

Like you, I have a limited amount of time to research the concerns that you have raised here. Suffice it to say that if Bill Johnson made the comments that you allege that he made(and I have no reason to doubt you), I would certainly disagree with him. I would not have in anywise suggested that Jesus took off his Divinity while on earth. As a matter of fact, I believe that that would have been impossible for even Jesus to have done. I Timothy 2 recognizes Jesus as the God-Man. He was whole God and whole man when He walked this earth. I can’t fathom how He could have been less than God, or a mere man. He was as Paul stated the God man– Immanuel, God with us–The incarnation–God in human form. So what you suggest that Bill Johnson said would be an impossibility from my vantage point.

Having said that, I must admit that I’ve read my Bible where for instance Jesus prayed at the grave of Lazurus, or at the feeding of the five thousand, and asked myself the question: did God answer Jesus’ prayer in these two instances in response to Jesus’ Divinity pr his humanity? When the Bible says in Hebrews that Jesus lived thirty and three years, yet without sin: Did He live without sinfully as a human, or was it because of his dual nature that He lived without sin? I believe that Jesus lived without sin fully as a human, though empowered by the Spirit of God, just as we can be empowered by the Spirit of God. I believe that God answered Jesus’ prayers as a human praying to God, under the unction and annointing of God’s Spirit. I do not believe that God answered Jesus’ prayers because Jesus was God. Perhaps this is all Bill Johnson meant by the statement that you have alluded to by him. You may also consider my viewpoint heretical as well; if so, so be it. Even if Bill Johnson said what you say he said, I would find that incorrect, but not heretical. We need to be careful throwing that ‘H’ word around so loosely, particularly when the person throwing it around uses only a pseudo-name. I find disallowing a woman to teach Hebrew,and cessationism, much more of theological errors than the Bill Johnson comment.

Bill Johnson does not deny the Divinity of Christ; that would be a deal breaker for me. He simply says(according to you) that Jesus laid aside his Divinity/Deity, and operated as a human under the annointing of the Holy Spirit. I find that statement inconsistent with what the Bible teaches as a whole regarding the person and work of Christ, but not a dis-qualifier for preaching in my pulpit, as long as he holds to the Deity of Christ.

I have allowed Calvinists to preach in my pulpit and I have one on my staff. I essentially reject all five tenets of Calvinism. I certainly wouldn’t express them the way they are expressed by virtue of the TULIP. But it is not a deal breaker for me. Richard Land has preached for me. I reject his belief in racial profiling and all those that he said supported his view. But that is not a deal breaker for me. I reject the Criswell’s, (Mr. and Mrs.) view of the curse of Ham. But, if he were alive I would consider it an honor to have him preach for me, and I would even allow her to preach for me, just as she did each week in Sunday School to 300 men at FBCD. I reject JM’s cessationists views. But, I would welcome him teaching his views on alchol(sp) usage and marriage and dating, at my church. Tim Rogers has preached for me. We don’t share the same views on the controversial IMB policies, that I believe have seriously hurt the SBC and her brand.

My point is, I don’t have to agree with everything a person has said in order for them to preach for me. As long as they affirm the basic fundamentals of the faith, I can later correct or address their incorrect theology or doctrine, if I find it necessary to do so. Thanks for your questions and interaction here.

One question: Explain to me why you find Bill Johnson’s remark so problematic, and why you would consider that to be a disqualifying remark as it relates to him preaching in a SBC church?

37 jtison March 10, 2014 at 9:44 am

I am seeing now that Dr Steven Lambert may be a charlatan himself. Looked good in print, but maybe not!
Bill Johnson had an article in Charisma magazine in Jan of 2013 wherein he stated that Christ laid aside his divinity. No correction from anyone that I could find!
John

38 jtilson March 10, 2014 at 7:50 pm

Dwight
Thanks for your response and the explanation of your position. I tend to go to positions diametrically opposed to yours, except of course for those such as the Criswell positions, though I thought he had apologized for these, and I agree that it was ridiculous to say a woman could not teach Hebrew in a non church setting. On cessationism, I think Bart Barber’s articles hold the truth and I hope someday soon he will complete his thoughts on those. I think you have missed his points completely in your responses and he is perhaps too frustrated to continue. So, cessationism for those Gifts intended to be ceased and continuation for those intended by the Spirit to continue.

In answer to your question: A false Christology is the beginning and inherit in every false cult out there. I really urge you to read the Dewaay article on the http://www.echozoe.com site. For me, John’s statement, “and these were written that you might believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God” demolishes what Johnson wants to substitue….’that you might believe he was an ordinary man who lived by faith”. (again not his statement but my summary of his teaching).

Finally, you say that you will tell your church when guest preachers get it wrong. How do you tell your city that you have had a false prophet in? I will not elaborate further. You can extrapolate. I respect you as a persons, just think you are making a terrible mistake that can’t be undone.
Hope to meet you someday.
John

39 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 10, 2014 at 8:12 pm

jtilson,

Appreciate the discussion.
Hopefully, final two questions: 1. I would briefly like for you to elaborate further as to why BJ’s remark disqualifies him from preaching in a SBC church? What if he means by his remark simply that God answered Jesus’ prayers as a human? or, Jesus lived a sinless life as a human? If that’s what he means by “casting away his Divinity”(paraphrase) then, would you still find his statement heretical? 2. If Barber’s cessationism view is correct, why doesn’t the SBC adopt his view and stop collecting mission funds from the rest of us who would find that view heretical, and inconsistent with inerrancy?

40 jtilson March 10, 2014 at 9:42 pm

Okay Dwight, last bite. Frankly if he is a false prophet as I say he is, there isn’t any other better reason than to deny him preaching in any SBC church. I assure you that what you are suggesting that he might be saying is not what he is saying. All of this really is on the site recommended and I don’t see what good it will do for me to try to summarize. I beg you to read it…www.echozoe.com and use the search box for Bill Johnson. It ties in the whole history of his drift into false connections and false doctrines.

Now I would hold all mystical knowledge if I could tell you why the SBC does not resolve the matter. I might be inclined to use your phrase re “collecting missions funds” since that is the original and continuing purpose for the Convention. I would imagine that if too many angel feathers or gold dust clouds or sucking the annointing from gravesites become more popular we might hear a motion or two. How do you feel about those. The youtube videos are there and can take you right into a Bethel of Redding fire tunnel!

You have a good night now. Wish I could be of more help.
John

41 Dwight McKissic March 10, 2014 at 11:30 pm

John,

Thanks. Bill Johnson is desperate for God; hungry for the fellowship of God; and in passionate pursuit of God. If in that pursuit he expresses himself in a way that’s uncomfortable for some—so be it. If in that pursuit, he makes some others rather uncomfortable–do be it. He clearly believes in the fundamentals of the faith on spite of your desperate attempts to label him a false prophet. I am willing to allow others to express themselves differently, and even behave differeny in their pursuit of God as long as they don’t deny the fundamentals of the faith. Spurgeon’s said that he would rather restrain a fanatic than to wake up a corpse. If Bill Johnson needs restraining, God will take care of that, if during his two days among us if his teaching or actions goes outside of biblical boundaries it becomes my job to bring order and correction to the house of God. But, that will not be necessary, because I believe that God wants to bring His people together across racial & denominational lines for Kingdom Advancement. He has ordained this meeting toward that end. I am grateful to God that Jack Taylor & Bill Johnson, two men who are sold out to the Kingdom of God, will be leading & feeding God’s people toward seeking first His Kingdom. I do appreciate you documenting and pointing to the opposition. Every great move of God throughout his history has faced this type of opposition. Jesus told His disciples to expect opposition as they pressed into the Kingdom of God. Be blessed.

42 Dwight McKissic March 10, 2014 at 11:49 pm

John,

For the sake of the Kingdom, I am already associated with Calvinist, Cessationist, and in the case of Karen Bullock, Sheri Klouda, and the female denied a VP position at the IMB because of her gender, those who behaved chauvinistic. Therefore, an association with Bill Johnson for the sake of the Kingdom is right in line. It would be unbiblical, unChristlike, and not in good taste forms to label persons that I disagree with on secondary and tertiary issues, false prophets, as you have done. I have read some of what you’ve linked to. None of it suggest that BJ has denied the deity and divinity of Christ. The Kingdom of God is larger than the SBC interpretations and viewpoints on every issue. During the 100 + years that the SBC officially supported slavery and second class citizenship for Blacks, should Blacks be impressed that throughout that whole time the SBC held an orthodox Christology? It is utterly impossible to hold to a correct Christology and an erroneous anthropology. So at the same time that you label BJ a false prophet, consistency demands that you label all of the SBC pastors who held an incorrect anthropology also, false prophets.

43 parsonsmike March 11, 2014 at 2:20 pm

Dwight,
Isn’t there a difference between those who [in our opinion] have different incorrect views on various truths, for example: those caught up in society and culture and were dead wrong on slavery, and those throughout time who have preached a different and therefore false Gospel, which includes who Jesus is?

If Jesus was not God on earth, then what, He got promoted?
Now I know that you are a Trinitarian, so that question was not pointed at you. But isn’t the Gospel about the Savior, who He was and what He did?

Peace to you,
mike

44 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 11, 2014 at 2:46 pm

Parsonmike,

BJ is a victim of drive-by heresy hunting. He clearly believes in the deity/divinity of Christ. BJ simply points out that Jesus, not only was God in the flesh, he was also a carpenter, a human being, a man. He was a man of prayer.

Did he pray as God, or did He pray as a man? Does God pray? And if God prayed who would He be praying to? So, when Jesus prayed He prayed as a man to His God. God heard and answered His prayers. The results of Jesus’ prayers would be what we call miracles. Two fish and five loaves were able to feed over five thousand–a miracle, as a result of Jesus the man, the carpenter, who prayed. Lazarus was raised from the grave, bound in dead men’s clothing, because Jesus the carpenter prayed. That is all BJ was saying, nothing more, nothing less.

The heresy hunters have distorted and misrepresented what he said, in an attempt to discredit him and mitigate his influence. As it relates to BJ, one would be wise to take the Gamalliel(sp) approach. But please; let’s stop the heresy drive-by’s. If you can prove that he said more on this subject that I allege, please point it out. I believe that Jesus prayed as a man, to God who answered as God. Does that make me a heretic?

45 parsonsmike March 11, 2014 at 6:18 pm

Dwight,
I am not calling BJ a heretic, I do not even know him,
I was asking in a general way because it seemed as if you were equating all wrongly held doctrines as equally wrong.
Christians can fellowship with believers who are of different stripes because we all hold to the same Gospel which includes the recognizing Jesus as the God who became man.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Peace,
-mike

46 jtilson March 11, 2014 at 7:27 pm

Well Dwight you have labeled me as desperate and a drive by shooter. I have supported my arguments openly from various websites and youtube pages, most of which have been up since about 2008 and well defended in their proper comments sections. Hardly drive bys in my humple opinion, and I am certainly not desperate to prove anything. I first addressed you because you seemed to be unaware of who BJ was. I can see now that it makes no difference to you anyway

Not heresey hunters at all but we recognize what we see printed. Can you do us all one favor? Have a discussion with BJ about this and post his response. So far as I can learn he has never denied the charge. You seem to be convinced otherwise so you might clear it up for us all. Thus far BJ seems to enjoy the controversey and is a master at turning this into a belittling of those who are governed by the written word rather than some manifestation or experience that lets God out of our box.
May the Lord bless your Service to Him
John

47 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 8:37 pm

John,

I will listen carefully to BJ’s sermon, not as a heresy hunter, but one who us intrigued by a man who would dare believe and challenge people to believe that God is still in the miracle working business. I believe that to. BJ gas made it a centerpiece of his ministry. I have not. But, I respect and appreciate one who has, and see it consistent with The closing verses in Mark 16.

I have perused the sites anti BJ sites, and watched portions of several video(all of some). And no, I have not read or seen anything yet, that convinces me that BJ is a heretic. See the BJ quote supplied by Marc in this comment thread, and my response. Please explain to me what’s heretical about Bill’s statement. No one bothers to explain what makes his statement heretical. The SBC and the Calvinist simply don’t get to write the doctrines & police the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is to large to be confined to the Westernize approach to Christianity that Calvinist and the SBC major in. BJ brings a third world faith/mystic/supernatural intervention approach to the faith. I am intrigued by that. These debates rarely take place in third world countries. They are experiencing these miracles rather than debating them. IMB missionaries can attest to this.
If opportunity permits, I will dialogue with BJ. And if I think it would be helpful in building bridges, I will blog on it.

48 jtilson March 11, 2014 at 10:09 pm

Thanks Dwight,
I thought you understood that we were getting the definition of hersey from the history of those who would deny the hypostatic union….just a miscommunication then. That and of course the idea that it would be impossible for the Divine Godhead to lay aside its Divinity. That’s what I based the heresey claim on. And again, How can you or BJ say that Christ only did his work as a man? Where is the exegisis for that? It isn’t enough to claim it. I believe the Scriptures are silent on that. And again, John said ‘these are written that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God’ BJ would have you believe that he was a man who throught faith did these works. How would that show him to be the Son of God?

I will await your post after you ask him of these things. I hope he dosen’t evade the question.
Good evening!

49 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 11:44 pm

John,

BJ makes it clear that Jesus is eternally God, therefore, you misrepresent him by suggeststing that he does not believe in the hypostatic union. Yours is an unfair an inaccurate representation of BJ’s beliefs.

If Christ lived a sinless life as God, not man, why would that be an inspiration and example to us(Hebrews 4: 15)?

50 Heath Powers March 11, 2014 at 2:23 am

Rev. McKissic,
Thank you for co-hosting this conference. It appears that nothing good happens without struggle, so I bless your courage. I plan to attend if nothing comes up here at church to pull me away. The fruit of Bill Johnson’s teachings in my life is without doubt. I am a better pastor, with a bigger vision and a deeper love for Jesus. It will be a wonderful gathering. Uniformity is over-rated, but unity looks a lot like love. May we find that there and honor our Lord together. Blessings to you! Heath Powers

51 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 6:30 pm

Heath,

Thanks. Please come. I love to meet Kingdom-minded believers. Please shake my hand when you come. May your tribe increase.

52 Mark Lamprecht March 11, 2014 at 12:36 pm

Hi Dwight,

I have a question. If it is true what Bill Johnson teaches about Jesus not being divine while on earth, that seems a form of the kenosis heresy. Let’s say it is not 100% clear that this is exactly what BJ teaches (though it could easily be argued he strongly leans that way).

My question: Are you putting one who holds to the kenosis heresy theologically on par with those who hold to Calvinism or cessationism?

53 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 11, 2014 at 2:59 pm

Mark,

Again, thank you for your intervention that really brought some rectifying, to a ugly situation. I appreciated your ubderstanding that what took place was inappropiate. It was far better for someone else to rectify and address/adjust the matter than me.

Concerning your question, If you read my response to Parsonmike you will know that I see zero evidence that BJ believes in the kenosis heresy. The quote lifted from his book that his critics are using to suggest that is them reading into, and adding to his words. If you take his words as face value, they simply don’t communicate a compatibility or agreement with the kenosis heresy.

Calvinism and Cessationism may not be on par with the kenosis heresy, but they are certainly more problematic, and theologically flawed than BJ believing that Jesus prayed as a human and God answered His prayers. My point was/is simply: if people can accept Calvinism and Cessationism as valid, biblically accurate, theological truth’s; then, how can you be critical of BJ for teaching that when Jesus prayed that was not His divinity at work but His humanity? I hope this cleared up my position for you.

54 Mark Lamprecht March 11, 2014 at 3:58 pm

Dwight,

Thanks for answering. We disagree but that’s okay. I did not know much about BJ until now and have little time to look. I did find an article he published for Charisma Magazine called “Bill Johnson: The Power to Heal As Jesus Did.”

The quote below seems to speak to the issue at hand. The position sounds like some type of nestorianism and/or kenosis. Again, we may disagree, but at least others may consider BJ’s words in context (as far as I can tell). His position is enough for me not to recommend his work.

Jesus only did what the Father was doing and only said what the Father was saying (see John 5:17-18; 8:26). This sets a pretty high standard for how to live.

While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of His divinity and became a man (see Phil. 2:7). It’s vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God.

If He did them as God, I would still be impressed. But because He did them as a man yielded to God, I am now unsatisfied with my life, being compelled to follow the example He has given us. Jesus is the only model for us to follow.

Thanks again.

55 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 11, 2014 at 4:49 pm

Mark,

Thanks for providing this quote. Very helpful.

“While Jesus is eternally God,He emptied Himself of His divinity and became a man(see Phil.2:7). It is vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God.”

Based on those two sentences some label Bill Johnson a heretic. Listen to the Word of the Lord:

Philippians 2: 6,7, 8 says “Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

What do you find in the Bill Johnson quote inconsistent with what the Philippians text says? I see no discrepancy or inconsistency between what Bill Johnson said, and what the text says. Please point out to me what I am missing?

Question for you: We all agree that Jesus performed miracles. Is the debate over whether or nor these miracles were performed by Jesus the carpenter; or Jesus, God with us? Isn’t the key issue that Jesus performed miracles? Is it necessary to split hairs over whether or not He did it as a man, or as God, or did He perform miracles sometime as a man, and at other times, as God? But is this the key question here? And would we really label a man a heretic, who clearly believes that Jesus is God; but we disagree with his view of whether or not Jesus performed miracles as a man, or God? Is this really a issue to divide over?

Mark, how would you and others answer the question: did Jesus perform miracles while on earth as God, or as a man annointed by God? Is one answer to this question orthodox, and not the other? I await your response, or anyone else who cares to answer. Thanks.

56 parsonsmike March 11, 2014 at 6:27 pm

Dwight,
Jesus performed miracles as the God-man.
What BJ seems to be saying is that since Jesus performed them in his ‘human’ capacity alone, then BJ feels like he cannot be satisfied with his walk unless he too can rise ti that standard, because Jesus is our example.
And by implication, we neither should be satisfied unless we rise to that miracle doing standard. with our Christian walk.

And while Jesus is our example, is He expecting us to feed 5000 with a little, or walk on water, or raise the dead?

Rather, He is our example because He sought to do the will of Him who sent Him. Like wise He sends us and we are to do His will. And he has given us the New T and the Old T to guide us in understanding and for walking in obedience.

Blessings from our mighty King,
-mike

57 Mark Lamprecht March 11, 2014 at 8:58 pm

Dwight,

I’ll try to answer briefly given my limited time. :)

BJ wrote:

While Jesus is eternally God, He emptied Himself of His divinity and became a man (see Phil. 2:7). It’s vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God.

What Philippians 2:6-7 actually says nothing about Jesus emptying himself of his divinity. Rather, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men (ESV).

In light of Scripture interpreting Scripture, consider Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily (ESV). There is no place in Scripture that I recall stating Jesus gave up his divnity. In fact, we can find places where he claims to be God, states his authority as such, etc.

Your question as to whether Jesus performed miracles as God or man both. As the doctrine of the Hypstatic Union states:

This is the union of the two natures (Divine and human) in the person of Jesus. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8). He is fully God and fully man (Col. 2:9); thus, he has two natures: God and man. He is not half God and half man. He is 100% God and 100% man. He never lost his divinity. He continued to exist as God when he became a man and added human nature to Himself (Phil. 2:5-11). Therefore, there is a “union in one person of a full human nature and a full divine nature.”

On calling Johnsons a heretic, I don’t know enough about him as I stated above. His statements are enough to give me (and apparently others) concern. I want to note something in Johnson’s words that he emphasizes. He wrote it is, vital to note that He did all His miracles as a man, not as God.

One of my questions for Johnson would be to ask why this is vital. He explains it a little and it seems he is teaching this “vital” point in order to support his theory that “God gave every believer the power to heal as Jesus did.” Of course, someone might contend with that statement that not everyone is given the same gifts, but that’s another discussion.

Blessings,
Mark

58 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 9:10 pm

Marc,

Great insights. Thanks for interacting with the text. I really don’t find objectionable anything that you said. Your question about “vital” is a relevant & pertinent one. The other question that I have is: Exactly what does BJ mean when he says, “He emptied himself of His divinity and became a man”? The answers to those questions would go a long way toward clarifying these matters. Thanks again Marc. I really wanted a textual response to this discussions., not just summary conclusions & opinions. I learned a lot from your feedback on this particular comment by you. Much appreciation.

59 jtilson March 12, 2014 at 9:12 am

Now Dwight, why must you accuse me of misrepresenting? Can you not see in the quote given here by Mark that in one breath he claims to believe that the Son is eternally God and in the next says he laid aside his Divinity and did it all as a man.

So in his own words I am not misrepresenting. To be God then Ungod does not seem to me to be possible.

Your next question implies that I then believe He did his Works as fully God. That is another confusion of what the dual nature of Christ is …Fully God and Fully Man.
Is it not obvious that I am perhaps confused by his “eternal son” laying aside Divinity? Why accuse me of misrepresenting when I haven’t?
If there is confusion it is because of BJ statements. Why did you only give half of what he said? Were you misrepresenting in an effort to defend him? He said both things.
Will you ask him to clarify and let us know?

60 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 12, 2014 at 3:19 pm

John,

I have drawn the conclusion that the rejection of BJ is driven by Calvinist and Western mindsets that reject the supernatural. I am growing weary of debating this issue. I don’t see where BJ reject the divinity or deity of Jesus; therefore, I am comfortable with what you are not comfortable with. BJ believes in the Trinity, PERIOD. I am not going to split hairs any longer over the differences of opinion–which is just that–concerning, what BJ means by his statement concerning Christ, that I interpret in light of his preface statement–Christ is eternally God. You can’t find a more orthodox statement than that. So, I’ll let you be content to label BJ however you like. I will be content to appreciate him as a brother in Christ, and to admire his belief and practice that The Kingdom of God is universal; The Kingdom of God is eternal; The Kingdom of God is supernatural; The Kingdom of God is practical; The Kingdom of God is now, and not yet.

Please understand that I sincerely appreciate your discussion here. I do plan to dialogue with BJ ’bout the ideas raised here. I believe though that the die is cast, so no one is going to change their minds. At face value, BJ’s words are not heretical. It’s the spin that you all put on his words that causes the questions. Be blessed.

61 jtilson March 12, 2014 at 3:27 pm

Thanks Dwight, I look forward to any further info after your meeting.
John.

62 Mark Lamprecht March 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm

Dwight, is the following a joke?

I have drawn the conclusion that the rejection of BJ is driven by Calvinist and Western mindsets that reject the supernatural.

Whether or not you include me in that charge, I never denied the supernatural and I never charged BJ with not being Trinitarian or outright rejecting the deity of Christ. I don’t even know much about him. As I explained below, based on the definition of Kenosis and the Hypostatic Union, neither must include a denial of the Trinity or deity of Christ. I really don’t get what is so difficult to grasp.

Anyway…Calvinism is once again a nice whipping boy.

I scanned a review of one of BJ’s books and it pointed out several theological problems. (BTW, it was a book review not a heresy hunt.) And I’d love to know if Johnson still believes as he’s been quoted that Jesus needed the resurrection as much as we need to be born again and that Jesus was born again at the resurrection.

63 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 6:46 pm

ParsonMike,

Your response resonates with me. I guess because it is similar to what I gave heard preached and taught all my life. Where BJ get’s my attention though is the couple cases that I’ve mentioned already. Any miracle that was a response to Jesus’ prayer, seem to me to fit what BJ was/is saying. But let me hurriedly say, earlier I calked Jesus the God-Man, and said that I thought that it was impossible for Him to totally divest Himself of His divinity. I love how you answer this question. But I believe in Bill Johnson’s quest to challenge believers to be used of God to the fullest extent possible. Thanks for a great answer.

64 parsonsmike March 11, 2014 at 7:09 pm

Dwight,
Thanks for the compliment.

But the question remains:
…is He expecting us to feed 5000 with a little, or walk on water, or raise the dead? -

The problem many see with the non-cessationist movement is in its excesses.
So if one end, a man teaches that there are no gifts of the Spirit for the church today, he is on one extreme and in my mind just as wrong as the man who preaches that we can do all those miracles like the ones Jesus did.
Both may be believers, but I wouldn’t want either preaching in my church.

peace brother,
-mike

65 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 7:58 pm

Parsonsmike,

Points well made. I do believe that that the miracle of food expansion as with the case of Elijah is possible today. I believe that Hod responds affirmatively according to His will for prayers of faith for healing. I believe that God answers prayer for financial needs according to His riches in glory and His will for the believers life(Philipphans 4:19). I believe that God intervenes in the affairs of men as He sees fit in response to the prayers of the righteous. I believe in a supernatural God who displays Himself in the midst of His people as a testimony that the Kingdom of God is among us(Matthew 12: 28). Where I resonate with Bill Johnson is at the point if a Kingdom now theology & mentality. The labels and interpretive disagreements that all of the websites are devoted to attempting to prove his heterodoxy, are simply people who do not by His Kingdom Now theology. I belive that the Kingdom is now, but not yet. I believe that the Kingdom is a present reality and a future hope. The quote supplied by Mark stops woefully short in my opinion of proving BJ to be a heretic. I appreciate the fact that you seem to be able to engage in this dialogue without labeling BJ a heretic. If the shoe fits, he must wear it. But I am yet to read something that convinces me that the shoe fits.

66 parsonsmike March 11, 2014 at 8:41 pm

Dwight,
Let me point out a BIG difference between the approach you just took regarding the miraculous and what was posted by Mark that shows a different approach by BJ.

In your approach, you said God could do these things.
In what was written that BJ said, was that he felt he, BJ, should be doing more and felt like he was inadequate in that he wasn’t.

Your approach emphasizes God and His power.
The other approach emphasizes man and what he should be able to accomplish.

Your approach is God-centered.
The other: man-centered.

Whether or not one qualifies to be a heretic by the latter approaches I’ll leave to others, but I find them to be wrong and sinful.

67 Dwight McKissic March 11, 2014 at 8:59 pm

ParsonMike,

With that said, I am grateful for the feedback and dialogue. Your answers are quite insightful, and again, they are sincerely appreciated. What I have not heard from you, John, or Marc, is an exegetical response to what is the fault in what BJ has said , regarding the quote provided by Marc. Everyone is quick to give bottom line summary conclusions, but know one has taken Phillpians 2:6-8, and explained why BJ’s interpretation & application is wrong. ParsonMike, you did say that Jesus performed miracles as the God-Man, and I agree with that. But even them, when BJ talks about Jesus being annointed of God performing these miracles(Acts 10: 38) is there a huge difference in what you & I are saying, and what BJ is saying? I got to preach tomorrow morning so, I have a limited amount of time to respond. And you, like me, may have said just about all that you know to say, it think that should be said. If so, understood. But all if the rebuttals that I have read or heard or seen on utube this far, are basically opinionated responses to BJ’s position. I am awaiting a solid exegetical response that’s convincing, before I join the throw BJ over the bus party.

68 Mark Lamprecht March 12, 2014 at 12:28 pm

Ok Dwight, briefly…

I’m not sure with which Scripture you were hoping myself and others would interact. I did not see how your questions about Jesus praying to the Father invalidate concerns some of us have about Johnson’s teachings.

Is it your position that Johnson’s teaching that Jesus gave up his divinity is just as biblically valid as those who say he did not give up his divinity?

The answer to that question would clear up why you are asking what you did. In other words, what at conclusion are you hoping to arrive? (Like I mentioned, my time is limited.)

Two issues seem in play here: 1) the Hypostatic Union and 2) Kenosis.

1) The Hypostatic Union states that Jesus has two natures that are always present since the incarnation. That is, he was never divested of one or the other making him 100% God and 100% man.

2) Kenosis as far as I know does not deny Jesus is God, but that he gave up his divinity for a time.

As I read Johnson, he has trouble in both categories. According to Johnson’s words, Jesus would at some point have been 100% man and less than 100% God (o%?) violating both doctrines.

p.s. Mark should never be spelled with a “c”! :)

69 Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr. March 12, 2014 at 4:55 pm

Mark,

Sorry about the misspelling of your name, thought I had seen that spelling associated with your name. Obviously I had not though.

If by Jesus gave up his divinity BJ means, “But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men”(Philippians 2: 7), then I have no problem with his statement. I would not have expressed it that way, but I do see how one could read that verse and make such a statement. His church website documents that he believes in the Trinity. BJ cannot believe in the Trinity and that statement means what the heresy hunters/Calvinist try and make it mean.

I have decided to be content not trying to defend BJ’s words. Those who find his words heretical, or problematic; so be it. I choose to interpret his word in light of the focus and emphasis of Philippians @ 2: 7 are on the humanity of Jesus. With that in mind, I can live with his statement. Your last sentence and paragraph totally ignores that BJ called Jesus the eternal God. It also disregards his confessional belief in the Trinity. But, a Western rational approach to Christianity verses a supernatural Kingdom now approach inevitably leads to the ridiculous allegations being hurled at BJ.

Mark, please acknowledge BJ’s belief in the Trinity. By doing so, that trumps all the Calvinist/Westernized/Rationalist objections and interpretations to BJ’s statement.

70 parsonsmike March 12, 2014 at 2:51 pm

Looking at BJ’s church’s website, it seems that he is a trinitarian.
In reading about his ministry, I think he is someone i would not care to sit under, i would not want my pastor to associate with, and someone who goes to far in the wrong direction when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit.
A heretic?
Not by any historical definition i know of.
A false teacher?
My opinion: Yep.

71 jtilson March 12, 2014 at 5:41 pm

Yep, what Mark said in comment #62 above. Words matter.

72 Ron West March 18, 2014 at 8:26 am

Dwight I was at your church yesterday for the Sunday morning service. You were busy with the Kingdom Family Gathering and I had to leave immediately after church so I didn’t have time to speak to you but next time I am in town I will make an appointment. Would love to discuss our Arkansas connections some time. Enjoyed your sermon and the spirit of the service. Heading back to Little Rock today.

73 Dwight McKissic March 18, 2014 at 11:11 am

Ron,

Thanks for visiting. I remember you having visited once before. You are always welcome. Would love to explore our Arkansas roots. Here is my email: dmckissic@cbcarlington.org
I would love to dialogue with you about several matters. Please contact me. Thanks.

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