Is a Christian required in the New Testament era to tithe – to give 10% of his or her income to the Lord’s work? Do the Old Testament commandments on tithing apply to New Testament Christians?
Blogging is a fascinating thing. Topics seem to run in cycles. A few years ago there were few topics more controversial and common among Baptist bloggers than tithing, but I can’t remember the last post I’ve seen on the subject. I guess we have been more focused on how churches are giving to the convention than how people are giving to their churches. We’ve hashed and rehashed soteriological issues ad infinitum. But the New Testament standard of giving has not been at the top of the hot topic list.
But, as a pastor, it is always at the top of my list. Sioux City does not exactly have a thriving economy and it has been several years since my church had to wonder what to do with the extra money we had left over after all our bills were paid. Every Sunday, just before I go home for lunch, I sneak a peak at our offering report to see if we get to keep the ship sailing another week. God has been good and has provided faithfully for us, but money is always a concern. Would that it were not so, but considerations of money and giving are never far from the front of my mind in this ministry.
So, I’d like to weigh in on this topic:
What is the New Testament standard for giving?
The predominant message of our churches has been pretty consistent. Figure out what you make, move the decimal one place to the left and write a check. And if you really love Jesus, you add some offerings to that tithe. NT giving, they say, involves paying the tithe which is demanded by God’s Word and then giving offerings above the tithe.
Of course, many have argued that tithing is an OT standard and that it no longer applies today. We are no longer required in this age of grace to give a set amount as the poor folks under the law were required to do, they say. It is seldom stated, but my experience leads me to conclude that often this is a means of justification for those who give far less than a tithe.
But does the Bible support either of these views? Is the traditional view of tithing as a NT mandate correct? Or does the Bible give justification to those who give much less than a tithe? What does the Bible actually say?
Perspectives
1) The concept of tithing in the OT was quite a bit more complicated than the way we sometimes present it.
Andreas Kostenberger and David Croteau have an excellent study of the historical and theological aspects of tithing, called, “Will a Man Rob God?” I will let the reader evaluate their perspectives, but the tithing system in the OT era was anything but simple. Before we attempt to bring tithing into the NT era and make it the standard for us today, we ought to make sure we really understand all that was involved before and under the Mosaic Law.
2) None of the NT instructions on giving mention tithing.
There are a handful of NT mentions of tithing, either in the gospels or in Hebrews. They all reference the OT system in one way or another, primarily in a negative sense – the empty religious works of the Pharisees. In Hebrews, tithes are presented as part of that inadequate Levitical system which Jesus superseded.
On the other hand, the major passages about giving have absolutely no mention of tithing as a standard.
In Acts 2 and 4, great generosity is mentioned in the NT church, but none of it is ever accompanied by giving.
In Philippians 4:10-20, Paul discusses the generous giving of the Philippians (Macedonians) demonstrated toward his ministry.
In 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, Paul speaks of these same Macedonians in the NT’s most extensive teaching on giving. Is it not odd that Paul, in this extensive and systematic instruction on giving never once mentioned tithing (giving 10%) as a mandate? Paul never mentioned tithing. Peter never mentioned it. John didn’t either. Doesn’t this seem strange?
3) There is a pattern of New Testament giving that does not involve tithing.
Those who promote tithing as a NT mandate have pointed out that there is no verse that negates tithing. But I think that there is such instruction. Tithing may not be mentioned, but there is a NT standard that is consistent in the NT. We need to examine that standard.
The New Testament Standard of Giving (2 Corinthians 8-9)
1) Giving is a voluntary act.
2 Corinthians 9:7 blows the concept of tithing as the mandatory NT standard out of the water.
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
What does a person give? What he decides in his heart to give. He is under no compulsion to give a fixed amount or percentage. Giving is a voluntary act of love and thanksgiving. When Peter confronted Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, he made it clear that they were free to give whatever percentage of the money they decided. Their problem was not that they did not give some predetermined amount, but that they lied about it. What they gave was up to them, according to Peter.
But that does not mean that Christians can give tiny amounts of their income and expect that God will be pleased by their stinginess.
2) NT giving is generous.
Those who would say, “I don’t have to give a tithe” as an excuse for giving little or nothing have absolutely no understanding of the NT standard. In 2 Corinthians 9:7, and many other verses, this is made clear.
The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
Whatever the NT standard is, it is not stingy. It is not miserly. Americans, with all our prosperity, give around 2.5@ of our income to charitable causes. That is ridiculous. The absence of strict tithing does not justify that kind of ungodly stinginess.
3) NT giving is evidence of commitment to Christ and passion for his Kingdom.
Your giving demonstrates the level of your commitment to and your passion for Christ. Does that statement bother you? Read 2 Corinthians 8 – it becomes pretty clear. Look at verse 5.
“…they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us.”
Their giving was an outflow of their commitment to Christ. Once you have given yourself to Christ, giving of your money and possessions to others becomes natural.
After urging the Corinthians to excel in the grace of giving, in verse 7, Paul said this in verse 8.
I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine.
Paul seemed to believe that giving was a way of demonstrating that love was genuine and faith was earnest.
4) The essence of NT giving is sacrifice.
Let’s be honest. In America, many people a portion of what is left over after they have paid all their bills and done everything they wanted to do. We give God the leftovers.
NT giving is marked primarily by one concept. Sacrifice. That is the very nature of Christianity and our giving should be a reflection of our faith. Jesus gave himself for us on the Cross. We give ourselves to Christ, dying to self and sin and then living to Christ. Our giving, to be truly NT, must reflect that sacrifice.
Staying in 2 Corinthians 8, look at verses 2-4.
“…for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints.”
Look at the formula for NT giving. Severe affliction+joy+extreme poverty=a wealth of generosity. The people of Macedonia gave according to their means. Honestly, who among us wouldn’t be thrilled if our people just gave as much as they could afford to give. But the Macedonians (and the members of the Jerusalem church just after Pentecost) took it a step further. They gave beyond their means, beyond their ability.
In fact, they begged for the privilege of giving what they couldn’t afford to give.
The New Testament Standard of Giving
In the New Testament era, disciples who had died to self and were completely committed to the cause of Christ, gave cheerfully and voluntarily first of themselves and then of their earthly means. They gave more than they could afford to give because the Kingdom of God matter more to them than anything temporal.
If you suggested tithing to a NT giver, they would look at you with wide eyes and ask,
“After all Christ has done for me, why would I give so little?”
Dave, you hit the nail on the head, outstanding post. I have never tithed.
I have always gave, and have been blessed beyond measure for it. I don’t think I have been stingy with giving.
I think giving is part of worship, when I drop my check into the offering plate, I think to myself, Praise the Lord.
The sermons I remember most are not about grace or love but about giving money. I don’t know whether that’s a function of the preacher or my own heart, but it has usually sounded like a sales pitch to me rather than true exegesis of scripture. You can almost always count on Malachi 3:8-10 to be read. No one usually suggests selling our property and bringing it to the leaders as in Acts 4:32-37 because it sounds a little too much like communism.
In the NT, giving is an expression of BOTH grace and love.
I agree. Tithing is an Old Testament perspective that confuses the motive, clouds the joy and (often) reduces the amount of New Testament giving.
You mention David Croteau above. I just purchased and received Perspectives on Tithing: Four Views, (B&H Academic, 2011). It looks very promising.
I pastor a 2 1/2 year old church plant in a west suburb of Phoenix. We do not take up an offering, but have an offering station in the back. When we have new member classes, I teach NT generosity, not tithing, and pay specific attention to the “not under compulsion” part of Paul’s writings.
Throughout established SBC churches in the PHX valley, the average per capita giving is around $13-14. Through the end of 2012 we are averaging close to $20. People will give, and give generously when it’s explained properly and according to scripture. It’s amazing what the Spirit can do with a heart when we get out of the way.
Steve, it is great that you people do better than the average person. But the standard of holiness is not my neighbor, but my Lord.
The tithe is not an “economic issue,” but an issue of righteousness.
The means by which it is given is secondary. I agree with you that the reason it is given is primary.
Wasn’t a “standard of holiness” observation Frank – just a comparison (which I might add, is what SBC folks do best in meetings). Merely trying to point out that we don’t need to guilt people into giving, or perform fancy rap songs set to today’s popular music – just teach it right, and let the Spirit have His way.
“” Tithing is an Old Testament perspective that confuses the motive, clouds the joy and (often) reduces the amount of New Testament giving. “”
Tithing is a “God perspective” it seems to me since both God the Father and God the Son mention the importance of tithing in both testaments. So, I don’t agree with your basic premise.
Beyond that to suggest that if every church family “tithed” it would “often reduce the amount of giving” seems to fly in the face of reality.
Keep in mind that the tithe is simply one part of Old Testament giving and not the whole, I just don’t see the proof of your proposition.
I also don’t know a single tithing member that feels giving “at least ten percent” somehow “clouds the joy of giving.”
Just not buying it.
Where did Jesus order tithing for the church? He seemed to view is as part of the Mosaic covenantal system. But nowhere is tithing commanded as part of the church’s worship.
Frank, I agree with you that the tithe is only “one part of Old Testament giving.” Where we don’t agree, apparently, is that it is any part of New Testament giving. The tithe is noticeably absent from passages in which the New Testament writers are teaching on the subject of giving.
Re clouding the joy of giving, I do not mean to say that all people who give ten percent have no joy in giving. But when we reduce the motive of giving to a law — you owe God 10 percent; you cannot begin giving until you pay the tithe, etc. — then we risk people not just giving for the sheer joy of it, but because they are dutifully meeting an obligation.
Actually, my standards are a bit higher: I preach that we “owe God 100%.”
Dave,
I don’t follow your thinking here for a number of reasons already expressed. But, mostly I don’t understand why Paul calls the O.T. a “schoolmaster,” but we should not in the N.T. period let it instruct us in the matter of giving.
Even if “tithing was abolished along with the sacrifice of animals” as you suggest, the idea of a “living sacrifice” seems very N.T. We should allow the O.T. to be the “schoolmaster” and instruct us in our giving.
If your church is typical, only 2% to 5% give at least ten percent regularly–I think that is the statistic. How would you instruct them to know a “goal” that indicates they are on the right path.
Is it enough to simply give “5%” as long as you are “cheerful” about it.
The logic of “that’s the O.T.” seems to undermine truly righteous giving, not strengthen it.
Of course, I reject the idea that simply giving 10% in any way buys favor with God. So, I’m with everyone that believes that.
Oh, and by the way, no where that I know of in the N.T. instructs one person to preach in a service while everyone else sits silent.
The list of things regularly practiced in church that are not specifically listed in the N.T. is quite long.
You just have no biblical warrant to establish the tithe as a universal mandate.
Dave, I really like the old Adrian Rogers comment, “Anyone who would allow a Jew to give more under law, that a Christian does under grace, is a disgrace to grace.”
Certainly not a mandate, but a worthy demonstration of trust. One doesn’t tithe because the church, or God, needs the money. One tithes because it honors God, and He wants us to know we don’t need to rely on our personal resources.
He says He will meet our needs when we’re doing His will, His way. All that we have belongs to Him, and we’re instructed by His Word. If we depend upon “feelings” to guide us in our decisions, we’ll soon find ourselves far removed from Scriptural standards in every area of life. Why should we not be instructed by His Word in this matter?
Mike,
Great Adrian Rogers quote.
David Brumbelow
To the Pharisees Jesus said ” For you pay tithes of mint & anise, and cummin, and have neglected the wightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. THESE YOU OUGHT TO HAVE DONE(ie tithe), without leaving the others undone…Math 22:23—– I do not believe we are saved by law, but neither do I disregard the Scriptural precedent set forth in Scripture. Many are quick to quote Proverbs 3:5-6 in which we are to trust God to give us guidance, but just 3 verses later ” Honor the Lord with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase.”…and ” And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s” – Leviticus 27:30—–
I believe it was Criswell who said that generosity may be more than the tithe, but it may never be less.
Kevin, Jesus spoke those words to Jewish religious leaders. Seems like a stretch that NO passage on giving directed at the church even mentions tithing. Not one.
I realize there is a differentiation in some commands given to specifically Israel/ the Jewish people, but are you saying that we negate/ignore all commands/exhortations/prescriptions if they do not say ” To the church at….?” The ceremonial laws are clearly abrogated in the book of Acts. Where is the tithe abrogated?
“Generous giving” may be prescriptive for the attitude of the heart rather than a replacement for the first 10% that has already been commanded.
Kevin,
Actually if I remember correctly, the Jews were to give 20% some think 30% when you put all the OT scriptures together. I think tithe was a temple tax for the upkeep of it.
Kevin,
If we are truly under the OT law of the tithe, then all farmers and gardeners must give 10% of their crops and vegetables. People give 10% of their money and think they are fulfilling God’s “requirement” of a tithe. They are not.
I’ve frequently been asked, when teaching, “Is it OK if I (do this or that .. go to casinos, drink wine with dinner, play the lottery, etc..) and still be a Christian?” My response was always the same:
Our task is to be in the world, living as much like Christ as we can. It’s not to be in Christ, living as much like the world as we can.
This shouldn’t be confusing. There are two types of law: the moral law of God that is written on the hearts of all men, and the Mosaic Law that was given to Israel for the purpose of making them God’s special covenant nation under the old covenant. Only those parts of the Mosaic Law that are found in the universal moral law are intended for all men, as the rest were only intended for Israel.
There was a testimony on the radio a few years ago, of a Wycliffe missionary who lived with a previously unreached and isolated group. After sufficiently learning their language, the missionary asked the tribe leader to explain the rules of their people. The chief explained that the rules were simple: “Do not steal, Do not sleep with another man’s wife, Do not kill, —oh, and respect your parents.” Such moral law of God is universal. But NO people group has ever been discovered who affirmed the tithe as a law of God written on the hearts of all men (nor keeping the Sabbath, for that matter).
I’m not sure I think that determining biblical truth by why unreached and isolated people believe is overly sound.
That doesn’t seem like a fair assessment, Dave. The example of the newly-reached people group only illustrated what ought to be undeniable: the tithe and the Sabbath are not innate to our moral understanding any more than not wearing a garment of two different materials. Yet, Paul told us that the law of God is written on the hearts of the Gentiles.
Ken,
We will preach and teach Grace, yet we pill pull the law of tithing out of the OT and say you will rob God if you don’t tithe.
Give money to your local church. Do it weekly. Be generous. Give more than a tithe. Don’t gripe about giving. Just do it. be faithful. Where a man’s money is found, you find his heart.
Give money and cease to be greedy and stop saying you are not going to give because the pastor preaches on tithing. Give anyway, you miserly wretches. Ask the Lord to help the preacher gain better insight to preach about giving in a biblical fashion.
Oh yeah, I may have forgotten. Give your money to your local church, you miserly wretches.
cb scott
You greedy rascal.
Pretty good advice.
LOL! I would pay money to see a video of you standing in front of the church saying that.
Tithing was never negated in the NT. It was affirmed in the NT but not negated. I think some of the comments have done well to describe the approach of giving beyond the tithe – CB pretty much nailed that one!
I will add this: When a person reads the Bible from cover to cover that person would never ask the question “what is the least that I must/or have to give?” Pre law, the 10% standard is seen. During the law, the 10% standard is seen. After law, the 10% standard is the least as Jesus actually raised the bar and gave it all!
Grace goes beyond the law!
Today we should be asking “how can I give more to the work of the Lord, my Savior, my Lord?”
Never affirmed that I can see, Tim, other than to those under the mosaic law. 2 Corinthians 9:7 negates tithing. Let each give what he decides. That, not tithing, is the biblical command.
I think your use of 2 Corinthians 9:7 is a stretch to say that it negates tithing. The church was preparing to make a gift. This is not speaking about individuals tithing.
If Jesus was going to negate the tithe, dont you think He would have said so specifically while challenging the Messianic Jews? Instead he affirmed that they should have given the tithe and also done….
Jesus himself never negated the tithe.
Of course it wasn’t talking about individuals tithing, because that is never mentioned in any church-related scripture.
The OT is a teacher, therefore I think it is reasonable for people to base their standard of giving on the tithe. But it is not a law. People who give cheerfully at 9% are not sinning.
“Grace goes beyond the law!”
That is well documented in both the OT and NT.
I agree with the BF&M on this. As I recall, it says the believe should give Cheerfully, regularly, proportionally, systematically, and liberally.
Amen.
Oh yeah. Give it to your local church, you whatever-CB-said.
I am always baffled a bit by the “tithing is an OT practice” as if that nullifies it in some way.
The fact is most church members give 2 to 5 percent. That’s the affect of grace? Contrary to that argument Jesus said our righteousness must exceed the Pharisees. One dope vigil example Jesus cites is tithing.
Until a believer reaches that threshold they are seriously remiss.
I think we are called to fulfill the command of God, this:
““For the poor will never cease out of the land;
therefore I command you,
‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy
and to the poor in the land.’” (Deuteronomy 5:11)
But the command of the New Testament is to do it with love, which generally means that, at times, we will give until it hurts.
Love doesn’t ‘keep count’ does it? Not in the Kingdom of God.
I suppose that means we are meant to ‘steward’ what we have been given from God in a way that honors Him . . .
‘you gave Me food’
‘you gave Me something to drink’
‘you gave Me clothing’
‘you visited Me’
so maybe ‘stewarding’ is not just about throwing money at a problem . . . maybe it’s giving something of our time, our talents, our abilities, and yes, of course, of the goods we have in our possession for which we thank God, the Source of all goodness in our lives. . .
and maybe if we are very fortunate, we may even have a little bread and fish to share . . . a story:
I remember my daily lunch while teaching was an ENORMOUS tuna salad sandwich with tons of lettuce and tomato and lots of tuna on toast, cut in half.
I ate at the teacher’s table right in front of the table where my own students sat (the boys) and ate, so it was easy to keep an eye on them to make sure they all had something for lunch . Was not always the case.
Came a day as I watched, one of the boys opened something wrapped in aluminum foil, and I saw his face fall when he uncovered a small piece dried up leftover meat inside . . . no bread, nothing else with it . . .
I had half of my wonderful sandwich left and . . . seeing the child, I realized I had lost my appetite and would need someone to help me by finishing that sandwich, and wasn’t I lucky that my young student said ‘Yes, Mrs. ___, I’ll eat it for you.’
At that moment, I knew that I was simply where I was meant to be, and very blessed to be able to do what I was meant to do.
The Church asks of us to ‘open wide our hands’, realizing that all we have has come to us from the Father of Gifts. If we know that, we will give what is right every time.
Thanks for sharing that story Christiane. What a wonderful way to help that boy while protecting him from embarassment.
Blessings
Ed B
Frank L.
When all the OT verses are put together that has to do with tithing it is not 10%, it’s 20 to 30%.
That is true, Jess, but only the Levitical tithe was called, “holy.” Though, I’d have no problem with people giving 20 to 30 percent.
There was more than one tithe in the old testament which was more than 10%.
Grace ought to do better than law, which it did if we look at many examples of new testament giving.
When we give to a church, we are bidding God speed to that church. I would not want to give a dime to a church that was corrupt and not doing the work of the Lord or good stewards.
Blessings,
Stephen
The NT commands generosity in giving, not tithing in the strict sense. If tithing would have been a command to Gentile believers then it would have been mention in Acts 15. I do believe that Jewish Messianics continued to tithe. But as mentioned in the OP, tithing as outlined in the Law is complicated and there was some struggles as to how this tithe looked to Jewish believers, especially those outside the land of Israel. It was complicated further with the destruction of the Temple. While tithing is not a NT Biblical command to the church, there are some biblical principles applied to and tradition in the early church of tithe-like giving. It was a practice, not an obligation.
That being said, we are blessed to be a blessing, not to fatten ourselves and our wallets. We can give a tithe and still be bound to mammon. Money and covetousness is one of the greatest idols we face in America today. Jesus said if our “eye is bad” (not generous) great is the darkness in our body.
I think CS Lewis outlined a good giving principle:
“Nobody who gets enough food and clothing in a world where most are hungry and cold has any business to talk about misery…I do not believe one can settle on how much we ought to give. I’m afraid the only safe rule is to give more than we can spare. In other words if our expenditure on comforts, luxuries, amusements, etc. is up to the standard common among those of the same income as our own, we are probably giving away too little. If our charities do not at all pinch or hamper us I should say they are too small. There ought to be things we should like to do and cannot do because our charitable expenditure excludes them.”
Well reasoned and well stated.
Frank L.
Lev. 27:30-32, Nu. 18:21, 32, Deut.12:10-11, Deut.14:28-29.
Three different types of the Law for giving.
Our system is harder, but simpler. Give yourself to God and then invest yourself sacrificially in God’s kingdom.
make ‘giving’ easy:
for one week write down each expenditure:
both the item(s) and the $
then go back and carefully consider which purchases were not really needed . . . circle the amount spent on each unneeded item, and add it up to get a TOTAL
for the remainder of Lent, contribute that amount extra to the Church as a ‘gift’, since you have now been enabled to enter into the charism of ‘simple living’ and are able to share in its benefits
amazing how this trains us and shapes us toward becoming less self-indulgent and more conscious of our ability to share the abundance we have that we really have previously wasted.
it’s not a difficult exercise, except unless you pull up your receipts from your previous week BEFORE Lent, and honestly circle your extravagances and indulgences and excesses . . . (I call this springing it on yourself so that you won’t ‘hold back’ because it’s too late . . . the reason being that when you spent last week, you didn’t know you were going to commit to this effort THIS week)
that sum of money ?
oh, you just can’t ‘afford’ it?
here’s where the charism kicks in . . . your conscience will red light you every time you back out of your ‘commitment’ . . . and when you honor your ‘commitment’, your conscience will be at peace
‘spiritual’ exercises aren’t always easy, and THIS one is one of the better ones for shaping a Christian spirit of ‘giving’ from self denial
outs?
‘I don’t practice Lent’ . . .
well, you can try thinking of Our Lord fasting in the desert for forty days and nights
and then reconsider if your own journey with Him is only during through easy times, or are you ‘with Him’ in spirit through the hard times, too . . .
you know, He does ask us to share His journey as best we can
do what you can do, but do it out of love for Him . . . then what you do is a product of a charism from the Holy Spirit
I forgot the ‘kicker’ . . . donate that TOTAL amount every week for sorrow, and finally at Easter for joy
A few observations:
1: A tithe is always a tenth. That is the definition/etymology of the word. It means ‘tenth.’ Now, in the Old Testament, we see two annual tithes: the Levitical Tithe (in Numbers 18, given to the Levites) and a tithe that was part of the individual’s worship that is seen in Deuteronomy. Then there was an every-third year tithe given for the sake of the poor–the OT does not give any indication that you could annualize that by paying a third-of-a-tithe each year, but perhaps so.
Then there is the warning that the king will take a tithe if you get one, in 1 Samuel. If all of these function at once, then you end up with theocratic Israelites paying out 30% every year–2 religious tithes, 1 tax-tithe, and an extra 10% on the third year. Plus leaving the corners of the fields unharvested.
2: We can go around in circles on this exegetically: perhaps the reason that the tithe is not re-stated in the NT is because it was assumed as common practice. After all, the NT does not state that we should wash our hands or put on clothes in the morning, does it? And we readily claim many a Psalm that is not restated for our own usage. So the “it’s not in the NT” can be a washout: the NT does not say to do it, but that is true of several things from the Old Covenant that we still use.
This hinges on whether Paul’s statements to give as we have ability (2 Corinthians) replace tithing as a practice or are in reference to a “special offering.” It is, after all, in context referring to the offering to be taken to Jerusalem, not any giving used for the general efforts of the church or widespread mission work.
In all, both sides of the issue have to be careful about their NT standing: it’s an argument from silence. Silence can be troublesome.
3: A quick side-note: tithing in the OT was tied to the land and animals, because the Law was written for a purely agrarian people. If we try to make the claim that the tithe applies as we see it in the OT, we’re up against the cattle, sheep, and crops issue: if that is literal, then asking for money is a stretch.
Personally, I think we look at it backwards. How much of God’s money dare I keep? If all that I am and all that I have is His and from Him, then how much can I keep? Enough to honor my commitments to my family, honor other commitments made, and the rest should go to the efforts of the Kingdom of God. The primary locus of that effort should be the local church. If your local church is not a place that you can depend on to spend money wisely in obedience to God, it’s not that you should quit giving. It’s that you should go elsewhere.
That’s not to say it all has to go there. There are food banks and medical clinics, missionaries and Bible translators, aid workers and needy folks that can all be blessed by your giving and pointed toward the One True God as the source.
But most tithe-preaching that I hear is to guilt people into making the budget, and most tithe-discussing that I have heard from people is as if that’s the max and they’re done. Hey, I give my 10%. God owes me for that.
Which is nonsense. Whatsoever you give, you give because whatever you’ve got, it came from above. How much do we really need to give? We should live and act based on How much do I really, actually need to keep?
And let the rest of it go.
(Unless you’re saving for retirement, like the Pope.)
Very good, young man.
“”But most tithe-preaching that I hear is to guilt people into making the budget, and most tithe-discussing”"
I don’t disagree with what you have written. I think it is a good summary. I will say this: if someone hears the Word of God and “feels guilty,” it is because they are.
Some of you hardcore 10%ers, can you tackle a question?
How can you explain 2 Corinthians 9:7 in light of a strict tithing mandate?
If I am required to tithe, how do I give “what I have decided in my heart” to give? It’s not voluntary, it’s a required amount.
How can Paul say that it is “not of necessity” if the tithe is necessary?
For one, Paul is not talking at all about the “amount,” but the attitude. One can give 80% under compulsion and it would not please God.
The issue is the “attitude,” not the amplitude of the gift.
This in no way negates God’s guiding principle of 10%. To suggest such adds something the text does not add it seems to me. One could understand this in light of the full teaching of the Bible that God “loves those who give, not only 10%, but generously above because of the gratitude one feels for being a recipient of God’s grace.
It does not mean that one does not feel some “duty” to honor God. One can lovingly and cheerfully discharge ones duty, and should. Duty (devotion) and compulsion are not the same thing.
By the way . . . I teach that all people tithe, including non-believers. Some just do it willingly and are blessed; some not so willingly and end up broke.
I just noticed where I have some disconnect with the flow of the conversation. You refer to “hardcore 10%.”
This would imply that anybody who believes grace giving starts at 10% and goes up is “hardcore 10%er.” This reads as “grace versus legalism” to me.
I believe “grace-giving starts at 10%” and ends with feeling a pinch. I think the idea of “cheerful giving” has been misinterpreted of giving only until it doesn’t give you a “cheerful feeling.”
I’ve heard a preacher more erudite than I say, “Many church members stop at nothing in their giving.” I certainly have a few of those.
“I believe “grace-giving starts at 10%” and ends with feeling a pinch. I think the idea of “cheerful giving” has been misinterpreted of giving only until it doesn’t give you a “cheerful feeling.”
At the very least; Amen!
cb scott,
Sir, thats not right, giving starts with G and goes through R A C
and ends in E.
Jess Alford,
You are just another greedy mountain. Quit making excuses for your greed and give more. Just stop it with your miserly wretchedness and excuses for hoarding money.
Jess Alford,
I was too greedy with my words. That should have been, “You are just another greedy mountain ‘man.’” And you are and you know it. I met many of you penny-pinchin’ old devils during the twenty years I lived among you.
cb scott,
I’ve had better communication with a fence post. If you wrote a bible it would be The Gospel According to CB. Which would be Law, and not Grace.
Jess Alford,
Of course if I wrote a Gospel it would be about law. The same would be said and said correctly about you, or Dave Miller, or Tim Guthrie.
Grace is found in Christ and Christ alone. The rest of us are merely men of sinful hearts.
Some of us are less greedy than others. You, Jess Alford, just happen to be one of the greedy ones . . . real greedy and a penny-pincher mountain man.
You squeak when you walk because you are so tight. You still have the first Confederate Dollar and Yankee Dime you ever got.
You get migraine headaches because you are so greedy that when you killed a ‘coon you made three ‘coonskin hats instead of one and they are all too tight for your head but you wear them anyway.
I remember that I once offered to buy you a bottle of pop at the Harlan Bait Shop and you said; “No, I don’t want a bottle of pop, but I will take the dime.”
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You pay a tenth of mint, dill, and cumin, yet you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy, and faith. These things should have been done without neglecting the others. (Matthew 23:23, Hard Core Southern Baptist)
These things? Justice, mercy, and faith.
Without neglecting the others? Paying a tenth of your spice garden–and, for that matter, all of your increase.
Jesus wants us to major on the important matters of justice, mercy, and faith. But if you read carefully, you find here an endorsement of tithing.
Rick,
You are precisely right on this. Jesus never negated the tithe. it is important to note that the tithe is also seen pre law.
This is actually one of the reasons that a 10% tithe on all the increase is taught in some segments of Judaism today. Almost none of the tithing commands are biblically practical because of the lack of temple, priesthood and most don’t live in Israel. But, they say, Abraham and Jacob tithed, therefore we should as well. Again, not a command, but a principle.
Tim
I know you and I have never interacted here since I mostly just lurk to learn. Also, I am not trying to pick a fight with you but I have a few questions concerning the statement that titheing is prelaw and therefore continues for the church today. This is a subject I have spent some time studying and these were questions I found I needed to consider when attempting to understand how this particular passage might apply to the church. While I agree that tithing is discussed pre- law, and I assume that you are referring to Abraham;. Are you saying that this incidence of the tithe was more than a one time occurrence? If so who did Abraham give his tithe to all the other times? Also, should Christians follow his example and tithe hen there are spoils of battle?
I will be up front and state that I came to the conclusion that there was no occurrence of tithing in the OT that supported requiring that practice for the church. This includes the story of Jacob attempting to make a deal with God and Malachi. The paper that Dave linked to is very informative as well as the four view book someone else linked to.
Mitch,
I believe that we see tithing mentioned pre law (one time), during law ( multiple times with multiple tithes), and post law. We never see Jesus negate it. We see the issue as standard under law, and then as a baseline post law with Jesus raising the bar as owner of all to us giving all.
Why under Grace would we give less than under law?
I don’t believe in tithing as a rule for N.T. giving but there were two pre law instances of the tithe not one. Abraham to Melchizedek and Jacob in Genesis 28:22.
John,
You are correct, I left that one out.
Tim
Using the argument that you mention then why would we encourage our people to give less than Jesus example of all. As someone else has mention in this stream, should grace not demand more? My answer would be that because Jesus gave all, I no longer am required to give any but because of the Holly Spirit that lives in my I give, I give often, I give generously and I never once consider what percentage I should give. he reason I don’t worry about it is because I have been released from the law so that I might serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code.
I admit, this way is much more difficult and requires more faith (for me any way). Now I must rely on the Holy Spirit to guide me rather than arbitrary number that may or may not be generous or sacrificial. I would never go back to the idea of a tithe.
I’d love to see you guys tackle my questions above. How can tithing be “not of necessity” and “as you decide in your heart to give?”
One might view those verses as “grace giving” above and beyond the tithe. Alternatively, one can view tithing as not under compulsion because you want to do it, and of course you can decide in your heart to be obedient to the tithe.
As Tim pointed out, we can’t dismiss the tithe as law. Abraham was before the law. Jacob was before the law.
“Abraham was before the law.”
In all seriousness this is a reality that must be considered when thinking about our personal giving and teaching others to give to the local church.
Of course, Rick never acknowledges when I agree with him, so I wish someone else had said it. However and nonetheless, the statement is one of biblical and theological weight no matter who stated it.
A problem with using Abraham’s example is we have only one instance of him tithing and it was 10% of other people’s stuff. The remaining 90% went to the people it was orginally stolen from.
That said, I readily agree that tithing is at the very least a Biblical principle and a good guideline much like keeping the Sabbath Holy. After all even God observed the Sabbath and rested on the seventh day of creation.
Thank you for agreeing with me, CB! Roll Tithe!
Tim,
I agree that we do have to examine both Abraham and Jacob and the tithe. In the case of Abraham, we one mention of a tithe. there are several interesting points here. First, none of what Abraham gave belonged to him except. as the spoils of war. Also, there seems to be no mention of a requirement for this practice. I find it a testament this faith that not only did he give the tithe but he gave the rest back to the two kings because he would not have them say that they had made him rich. One other unique point in this passage is that here is the only time that the tithe is not agricultural products. Later in the law the tithe is always agricultural produce from the land. Even when people had to travel a long distance, they were allowed to change to produce to money prior to the trip, then purchase what was needed upon arrival at the temple.
With these being some of the details of this stor
I y, I have a hard time imposing tithing on NT believers. At best we could require a one time tithe from earnings that might be considered some type of windfall or extra income like overtime. Or we could be legalistic and say that all of Gods people must tithe from the spoils of war.
I want to address the instance of Jacob and the tithe. It seems that while he made the promise yet we have no record of him actually keeping that promise. While this is an argument from silence, so is the counter argument. Also when we look at the wording of this passage it hardly serves as an example for tithing that would be considered with a cheerful heart. It seems that what Jacob was doing was in line with most of his previous behavior, attempting to workout a good deal for himself. Also if we go ahead and assume that he kept this promise, where and to whom did Jacob give this tithe and why do we have no record of the place or the instance?
Certainly, concepts like justice, mercy and faith are eternally binding, but Jesus here was rebuking a Pharisee, not setting doctrine for the church.
It would be better to draw our doctrine from that which is given to us, not to Jesus’ rebuke of Pharisees under the mosaic system.
Dave,
I don’t think it is correct to take a verse that is obviously speaking to a church as a whole and apply it to an individual while saying when individuals are addressed it is not applied. Something not right with this approach to me.
When one focuses on the issue of tithing, one misses the reality that in the NT the 10% is nothing compared to what grace should propel!
Here is the “rule” for American Christians, especially in the Southland where everybody loves and drives trucks.
Make sure your giving to your local church is higher than your truck payment. If your truck is paid off, give twice what your truck payment was before it was paid off.
A good sermon line is:
“Deacons shalt not love their trucks more than their church.”
“Deacons who drive pickup trucks must bring in a half-ton bed load of money to the offering plate each year to the church. Their wives must bring the cargo space in this SUV each year.”
For regular, non-deacon type members:
“Give enough so the church can always drive a Caddy, don’t leave your church with a mule to ride.”
cb scott,
I remember reading that, it’s in the Affordable Health care Act.
cb scott,
Now you are going too far. Don’t be messin with a mans truck, his dog or rifle.
Actually, from a tithing perspective it is not a rebuke. The practice was to tithe on the 7 species of Deut 8:8. Jesus is actually praising them for their diligence in this matter as their tithe went beyond the common practice (but obviously they were missing the greater point).
I think it is an endorsement for tithing: for Jews, in Israel.
Kieth
I agree with your conclusion. Also it is interesting that Jesus never mentions actual money in this passage. In accordance with the Law they were tithing from the produce of their land. As Jews in Israel and Pharisees at that, nothing less should have been expected concerning the tithe. As I think you agree, the church is not Israel, we are not Jews nor are we Pharisees, but if it will make folks feel better we could all tithe from our gardens
What is interesting is that by the time of 2nd temple Judaism, the tithe had grown from a strict adherence to the tithing principles of crops and such to tithing on all of the increase. This was based upon some creative hermeneutics on Deut 14:22 and the word “all.”
Isn’t it important that Jesus said this before he had fulfilled the Law?
Rick,
(should have been done), Brother, to me this means in the past.
Think about it.
Does anyone here tithe from their gardens or fruit trees or berry bushes? Anyone at all?
Anyone else find the first part of II Cor 8:5 interesting: “and this, not as we expected”. While not making any less of the principle of giving yourself first to the Lord and then by the will of God to others, it makes it look like Paul was used to less than this in the NT churches, as though giving with lesser motives was something not at all unusual in his experience.
Tis normal for humans to be selfish and look for excuses in why not to give. Jesus in us should change this!
Tim G. is right about humans being selfish. Give money to your local church you miserly wretches and quite being greedy.
Recently there was a post here on Voices about the amount of a proper tip. Give your local church more of a percentage of your yearly income than you give of a percentage of your bill in the cafe after church on Sunday.
You greedy hooligans need to baptize those wallets and sanctify your checkbooks.
cb scott,
God has never ask me for one cent.
No, Jess Alford, God has never asked you for “one cent.” That is true. God has mandated your death. He has mandated your death to everything. That includes every cent you have ever earned or been given. Not one cent, but everything.
It is all His. He has paid a great price for you and you and all you had and have is His. He does not have to ask you for what is already His.
On this, I agree completely. Though all of the discussion has focused on tithing, the point was that the NT standard of giving is sacrifice.
Dave,
Saying that the NT focus is sacrifice is one thing, but sacrifice means different things to different people. This idea would leave giving to a situational standard. Grace goes way beyond. In the NT, 10% is the floor. We should live in such a manner that we give way beyond the floor. Anything less makes a mockery of Grace.
Tim G.,
I think it is fair to state that 10% is a “Kingdom floor.” The concept was prior to the law of the OT and the fulfillment of the NT.
Jesus is our everlasting High Priest of the order of Melchizedek. The tithe and sacrificial living and giving are Kingdom concepts for the people of God.
People don’t give because they are greedy and don’t want to give. These stories some of you have posted here are more about the justification of greed rather than taking up the cross, dying to self, and following Jesus.
I have learned over the years that most arguments about tithing stem from a perspective of “not giving or how little can I get by with”.
Sad!
“I have learned over the years that most arguments about tithing stem from a perspective of “not giving or how little can I get by with.”
Tim G.,
You are correct. You are also correct that such a reality is “sad.”
Tim, again, I sadly do not disagree with this, and said as much in the article.
But neither strict tithing nor stingy giving is the biblical model. Generous, voluntary, sacrificial giving is the NT standard. I would remind you of the last line of the piece.
Why, in light of what Christ has done for us, would we think of giving so little as the tithe?
“Why, in light of what Christ has done for us, would we think of giving so little as the tithe?”
In addition, it must be stated that such miserly, greedy, rebellion is not biblically permissible. Such thinking is beyond the parameters of dying to self and taking up the cross, and following Jesus.
Kieth
I agree with your conclusion. Also it is interesting that Jesus never mentions actual money in this passage. In accordance with the Law they were tithing from the produce of their land. As Jews in Israel and Pharisees at that, nothing less should have been expected concerning the tithe. As I think you agree, the church is not Israel, we are not Jews nor are we Pharisees, but if it will make folks feel better we could all tithe from our gardens
Tim, shouldn’t we let the Holy Spirit determine what sacrifice is for each individual? Also what text do you use to determine the floor of giving is 10%. If this were the actual floor why was this not mentioned in Acts in the letter to the churches concerning what portions of law gentile believers must keep? I agree that our giving must be generous and sacrificial, I disagree that a biblical argument can be made supporting 10% as any standard for NT believer, including being the minimum. If there is a text that teaches this principle I will joyfully embrace that principle. Until that text is given am much more comfortable giving in obedience to the Holy Spirit that lives in me.
Dave, I would ad that not one comment in favor of tithing has been based on exegesis of any text OT or NT. I think this is exactly why the average Christian does not tithe. It has little to do with greed but very much to do with lack of truth. Paul stated clearly that when truth is suppressed it leads to rebellion and chaos. Also if we have been freed from the law then how exactly do we as ministers justify trying to put people back under the law for this one area.
I know that everyone has a story but every church I have ever seen that pounds the people with the tithe is constantly behind budget. Where people are taught NT generous giving or grace giving, the budget never seems to be a problem.
Mitch, I appreciate your comments here. I think they give evidence of some wisdom and insight. But then again, you tend to agree with me, so….
I don’t get the impression that those Paul was comparing them to wanted to *not* give. The Macedonians gave themselves to God and then, after determining that giving to the relief of the saints was God’s will, came to Paul begging to be allowed to take part. That doing it this way – checking with God first and *then* giving – was unexpected seems to imply that Paul has had others wanting to give that *didn’t* check with God first (and that this wasn’t at all unusual) They wanted to give, not because they knew it was God’s will, but perhaps because they wanted to ‘look spiritual’ or to demonstrate their spiritual superiority. There *are* less than holy motivations for giving. Evidently they didn’t *lie* about their giving (having not gotten the Ananias and Saphira treatment), but when the Macedonians come doing this the *right* way, it’s enough for Paul to sit up and take notice. It being unexpected would seem to indicate that most of the church weren’t living up to this standard.
Ben Coleman,
Maybe you should read 1 & 2 Corinthians again. The Corinthians were greedy. They had better incomes than other city churches had, but were far less sacrificial.
That doesn’t seem to doesn’t match the way Paul describes the Corinthians. He’s not trying to convince a church that had no desire to give to instead give, he’s encouraging a church that has showed a desire to give to complete the doing of it (v10,11). He’s not pushing them to commit to more giving, he’s encouraging them to complete what they’ve already committed to.
The Corinthian church certainly had problems. But here Paul’s not addressing them as greedy people who need to learn to give sacrificially. “But as you excel in everything — in faith, in speech, in knowledge, and in all eagerness, and in the love from us that is in you — make sure that you excel in this act of kindness too.” (v6) He’s encouraging them to get their giving up to the high level they show in other parts of their spiritual life, not as greedy sinners who haven’t met the minimum.
Ben Coleman,
You are wrong. They were greedy. Read the letters again.
Thanks for this article Dave. This kind of discussion can be liberating to many laypersons who haven’t studied the issue thoroughly for themselves.
I am reminded of a visit I went on with the pastor of my smallish Church (about 120) I attended in the late ’80s. There was a older retired couple in the Church who were on a small fixed income and who lived in a trailer house in a poor neighborhood. We knocked on their door and were invited in to visit.
The Pastor asked why they had missed Church for so many weeks.
They replied that they were ashamed to attended because of some recent difficulties they couldn’t afford to pay their 10% of their gross income (that is what was taught by this pastor).
The pastor told them that if they would go ahead and pay it anyway that God would provide and they would be Ok. The couple came a few times and then moved on.
I was sick as I watched that and thought of how the Pastor could have extended grace to them and invited them to attend whether they tithed or not. But he didn’t take that route. He didn’t say “you must tithe to attend”, but he also didn’t lift that condemnation from them either. I wish he had at least said that while he believes tithing is a mandate, he wants them to come anyway while they work on that. This couple would have continued attending and giving “something” had they not been beaten into submission with the pay 10% or you’re stealing from God messages. As it was they were burdened by misplaced guilt.
In a separate incident the same pastor’s wife admitted that they knew that the tithe was not required but if he didn’t preach it that people wouldn’t give and the Church would go broke. I was about 28 and still sorting out what I believed about tithing but I knew that the above was wrong. I was working with the youth group at the time so my wife and I stuck around but we eventually moved on too. I like that pastor and his family on a personal level but because of these and other similar inconsistencies I was no longer comfortable sitting under his leadership.
My beliefs on giving are in line with what Dave wrote and we give cheerfully, faithfully and in addition to Church we give to Christian benevolence ministries. But if a Pastor truly believes that the New Testament teaches that Christians are obligated to pay 10% of their income (increase?), then preach it. If a pastor honestly believes that we should sell all we have and live in a commune, then preach that. Just be objectively honest about what you believe and don’t be manipulative. I can live with an honest disagreement, but not dishonest manipulation. I would think it would be a fearful thing to lie from the pulpit for any reason including a fear that God will not provide enough money for the Church through the giving of His saints.
Those stories make you cringe a little, don’t they?
We are exposed when Jesus points out to us what real giving is all about (the widow and her two mites…all she had).
Christians do not (should not) be ‘calculated givers’…but give freely from the heart…and there it is, again (exposed).
The only place that we see the tithe commanded is under the context of O.T. law. Even the quote by Jesus to the religious leaders was made before the N.T. was in force. Hebrews 9:16, 17
I apologize for making so many comments on this post. I have never made more than one or two comments in the past. Usually I fail to comment because I lack support for a position or I am uninterested in the topic. This is one topic I have studied and feel I can support my views. know that there are differing views and that like most arguments on blogs, no minds will be changed. I am more than willing to change my mind but I have to see an argument from scripture that takes the context of the passage into consideration and does not somehow violate a clear principle taught elsewhere.
I will try to comment more on other topic.
Let me start by saying I believe in tithing. I’ve read the article “Will a Man Rob God” and it says there were three different tithes in the OT. I really do not know how they arrive at this conclusion. The tithe went to the Levites at the tabernacle (Num. 18:21 & Lev. 27:30-33). Tithe literally means 10%. They then say there is a Festival Tithe (Deu. 14:22-27). The text clearly says they can only have the “pot luck” if the tabernacle is too far away (vs. 24). This is not another tithe, but a command on what to do if you cannot travel to the tabernacle. Even here one has to give the local Levites a share (vs. 27). Lastly the article argues there is a third poor man’s tithe (Deu. 14:28-29). After the third year of harvesting crops on a certain field of land, that tithe is to go to both the poor and Levites. Being that people work different fields at different times, the third year is staggered so that the poor always have the assistance they need.
I’m willing to be corrected here, but isn’t this article simply poor exegesis? There are not three tithes. Everyone gives a single tithe in Mosaic Law. Most often tithes are brought to the tabernacle. If this is impossible, one has a “pot luck” with the local Levites. On the third year of produce from a field, a person tithes the proceeds to both the Levites and the poor. I simply do not see three tithes here. Rather, three different ways are given to handle tithes which depend upon circumstances. To back up three tithes the article quotes the Mishnah. Really??? The Mishnah is a record of the legalism Jesus criticized. This is to guide our understanding of the OT?
Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
This verse is clear. Jesus says the tithes should have been done. What other teachings of the Lord’s should we systematically dismiss because it addresses nonbelievers? This is a dangerous slippery slope. Should we say all the “woe to you” passages do not apply to the church because Jesus is talking about Jews? The Lord knows He is ushering in the Kingdom of God/New Covenant. Your hermeneutic seems to divide Jesus into two people. . . Old Covenant Jesus and New Covenant Jesus. This kind of thinking is wrongheaded in my opinion.
1 Cor. 16:2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
“storing up as he may prosper” points to some kind of proportional giving. I believe it assumes the tithe. Perhaps a portion of the Corinthians’s tithes were to be given to Jerusalem. This exhortation evidently did not raise enough money, hence 2 Cor. 9:7.
Let me finish by saying 2 Cor. 9:7 is not the trump card many make it out to be. The offering is for another church body. This is a collection that can easily be construed to be above the expected tithe. The first Lottie Moon offering that was ever taken.
This would explain Paul’s appeal to above tithe giving and emphasis on the heart. Paul appealed to the tithe in 1 Cor. 16:2, and not enough money was raised. In 2 Cor. Paul ask the church to give above their tithe so that he is not embarrassed (9:4).
The story above that is told by Ed is sad only because the pastor believed he was lying. The poor in the OT did not get out of tithing because of their condition. If tithing is expected by Christ, as Matthew 23:23 clearly states, then the poor must still tithe today.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. The three tithe idea depends upon the Mishnah. . . which is sinful legalism. There is one tithe in the OT. . . and tithe means 10%. Jesus says tithing must not be left “undone” in Matthew. The only way to dismiss this clear statement is to dismiss all of chapter 23 because its addresses Jews. Please note verse 1 of chapter 23 which says “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His DISCIPLES, saying:”. The Lord is not addressing only scribes and pharisees, but also us as His disciples. The special offering from one congregation to another in 2 Cor. 9 should not be used to negate the tithe to ones local church. Preachers need to proclaim tithing lest Matthew 5:17-20 make them least in the Kingdom. I know, I know, this is a strong statement. But as I said, I believe in tithing.
Thanks for a great discussion!
This is a rough outline of the tithing practices of Judaism at the time of Jesus:
Tithing in the “Law “
1. “Large heave offering” – No amount specified, but generally 1/60th of the entire amount. Deut 18:1-4
2. First tithe – 10% of remaining – Given to Levites – Num 18:24
3. Second tithe – 10% of remaining – Deut 14:22-27 – Like a savings plan for the festivals, however there were some additional practices:
a. Years – 1, 2, 4, 5 – eaten in Jerusalem
b. Years – 3, 6 – poor tithe
c.Year 7 – no tithe separated at all.
“Tithe- like practices”
1. First fruits to the priests – At Shavu’ot – Minimum 1/60th
2. “Leaving the corners – don’t strip the vines” – about 1/60th – Lev 19:9-10, Deut 24:19
3. Fruit Trees – Lev 19:23-25 – years 1-3 forbidden to eat, usually burned. Fourth year offered in praise to Lord, like “second tithe.” Year 5 – ok to consume.
4. Dough – 1/38th – 1/24th of batch – Num15:17-21
5. Firstborn of the livestock – Num 18:15-18
6. Wool, Oil, Wine – 1/60th – Deut 18:4
7. Priests given a piece of every kosher slaughter – Deut 18:3
8. Animal tithe – every 10th animal – Lev 17:32-33
9. ½ sheckle temple tax – Ex 30:13-15
Do you think Jesus tithed? If Jesus did tithe was he then involved in the sinful Misnah practices?
Hello Keith,
Thank you for responding. Jesus did not support the legalistic practices reflected in the Mishnah. . . and this got him killed. We see Jesus rebuke legalism all over the Gospels. Mark 2:23-3:1-6 is a great example. Mark 7 is probably the best passage to read. In verse 9 Jesus says “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” I am absolutely certain Jesus did not believe he had to follow the legalism recorded in the Mishnah. We should also note that the Lord did not negate the commands of God while rejecting legalism.
I think your question is a trick, is it not? Jesus did, at times, practice traditions to become all things to all men. These actions of the Lord should not be considered an endorsement. I hope I have already pointed out that Jesus rebuked legalism and therefore the Mishnah. Nevertheless, Jesus sometimes followed the traditions in order to not offend and therefore better encourage reception of His Gospel.
Matthew 17:24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, “Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?”
25 He said, “Yes.”
And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?”
26 Peter said to Him, “From strangers.”
Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. 27 Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you.
See how Jesus did not agree with the legalistic temple tax, but paid it anyway in order to avoid needlessly offending? Exodus said that after each census a half-shekel temple tax should be paid. The legalistic religious leaders instituted a yearly tax of a half-shekel that was not based upon a census. (Jesus, as the Son, was not obligated to pay the tax because of who He was.) The Lord paid the legalistic tax anyway because this was considered a patriotic tax. Therefore to not pay it would offend many, and would certainly hinder salvation. Just because Jesus occasionally followed tradition does not mean He endorsed it as God’s word. The passage from Matthew 17 clearly shows this.
I may be wrong, but I think your desire was to show Jesus following Mishnah practices and then put me between a rock and a hard place. If the Mishnah traditions are sinful then Jesus should never follow it. Since Jesus did follow some of the Jewish traditions recorded in the Mishnah, then it should at least be respected and used for exegesis. I hope I have shown that just because Jesus followed some Mishnah traditions does not mean He considered them authoritative.
The anti-tithers on this blog are doing precisely what the legalistic Jews were doing. First they point to Mishnah legalism and say “See, the OT giving system is a mess,” and then they proceed to dismiss God’s command to tithe.
Your list above is not authoritative to an OT Jew, the inspired scriptures are the rule. The lack of verses to support your list clearly shows this. You also seem to equate giving with tithing. Tithing means 1/10 not 1/60. Again, there is one tithe in the OT.
Jesus, addressing his disciples in Matthew 23, commends the tithe. We as His followers can do no less.
T.J.,
Very interesting comments. Thanks.
David R. Brumbelow
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, I had a busy day at work yesterday. First, for the record, I am not an anti-tither. I think that 10% is a MINIMUM. But I do not base this upon NT commands or OT commands to Jews, because I have a tough time seeing a direct command to Gentiles in the church. As I mentioned above, if it was so important to tithe then why didn’t the Jerusalem Council add it to their list in Acts 15?
I think the better argument comes from the practice at the time of Jesus. 10% on ALL of the increase had become the general practice for the Jews. Whether this is scriptural or not, that was the practice. They went beyond scripture and Jesus commended the Pharisees for just that in Matt 23. There is also some evidence in the Didache of 10% tithing on all of the increase being practiced in the very early church.
I think it is also helpful to look at how modern Judaism tries to interpret the OT tithe in present day practice (this is not monolithic by the way, just like we Baptists). They look to a 10% minimum to be given to the local synagogue or poor. No maximum, however be careful that you do not give too much as to become poor yourself.
Again, I see tithing as a “commend,” not a command.
I also think you can give 10% and be a greedy, miserly, wretch. See CB’s comments. There was a belief that you could follow all the commands of the Law and be a complete reprobate. Think heart matter. In some sense this is what Jesus was doing in Matt 5 when He said, you heard it said…now I say to you.” How much to give? Give so you have a “good eye.” Give so you are generous. Don’t compare your giving to your neighbors giving, compare yourself to Jesus. He didn’t just give us a tithe on the cross.
Now about the Mishnah…Is the Mishnah sinful? Are the practices sinful? Is the heart sinful? (By the way the Mishnah wasn’t assembled until well after Jesus). The Mishnah is just a codified argument on how to best follow the Law. What does it mean to do no work on the Sabbath? One could codify our discussion today in much the same way. How do we apply the OT commands to tithe and give in today’s church? Could this done with a proper heart? Or could it become legalism?
I completely agree about Jesus rebuking the traditions of men versus the commands of God. I think if you look at the theology of the Pharisees and the theology of Jesus there is a lot in common. Jesus problem with the Pharisees was their heart. Good tithers by the way, but lacking in mercy, justice and such. In developing their traditions they forgot the point.
As far as one tithe is concerned we will have to agree to disagree. I gave plenty of verses, attached to the above list. I’m trying not to write a book here (although I am getting close!). The list is a rough outline of tithes and tithe-like practices that was practiced in the OT. They practiced these in 2nd temple times, it is well documented, Jewish scholars and sages in history have attested to the fact as well.
Blessings and shalom to you brother…I wish we lived close. It would be great to have a cup of coffee and discuss the Word with someone who loves the Word as much as I.
T.J. you wrote, “The tithe went to the Levites at the tabernacle.” Do you have any other references for this other than Num. 18:21? It is my understanding that the tithe was the Levites inheritance — all of them, not just those who worked at the tabernacle. The Levites did not inherit a portion of land as the other tribes, but were given 48 cities within the other tribes and the tithe. Reading the fuller context of Numbers 18:20-24 seems to support this rather than that all the tithes were brought to the tabernacle. Many Levites could never be priests and did not serve at the tabernacle or temple.
Thanks.
Hello Robert,
Great thoughts, and I should have been been more clear. The Levites had a rotation system set up that would require work at the Tabernacle certain weeks of the year. This can be seen in 1 Chronicles 24:19. While this is not from Moses, many assume a similar practice took place before the temple was built. There was not enough work to keep thousands of Levites busy year round at the tabernacle (for count see Numbers 4). If there was full time work for the Levites at the Tabernacle then why create 48 cities? Numbers 4 clearly gives all Levites important responsibilities at the tabernacle.
You are correct that tithes were to support the Levites. . . all of them. Sorry if I implied otherwise, I didn’t mean to. I’m not sure how they divided up the gifts. Did each family receive financial compensation during the presumable one week rotations? (1 Chronicles 9:25) Perhaps they took the offerings at the Tabernacle and divided up the tithes to be sent to the 48 cities. Deu 14:22-27clearly says tithes are to be brought to “the place where He chooses to make His name abide.” God’s name abides where the tabernacle happens to be because His special promised presence is above the ark (Ex. 25:22). All this to say that you are correct, Israel’s tithes went to support all Levites. How tithes were exactly distributed is unknown to me. If anyone knows I would love to learn more.
TJ – I’m looking for the historical reference, but I do remember reading that there was some inequities in how the tithe was divided as the Levites closer to Jerusalem seemed to be getting more than those that travelled from a distance. It caused some hardships for those a ways off.
There was not enough work in the Temple for all of the Levites. Figures for the number of Levites in the second temple era range from 8-18,000. In addition to their two, one week services in the Temple, the three pilgrimage festivals (Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles) they were employed to do other things. For example, there is some evidence that some of the areas around Bethlehem were used to raise sheep for use in the Temple sacrifices and that Levites in employ of the Temple were used as shepherds. It is just speculation, but I wonder if the shepherds in Luke 2 were Levites. That would be an interesting twist.
“Usually I fail to comment because I lack support for a position or I am uninterested in the topic. This is one topic I have studied and feel I can support my views.”
This is one of the saddest statements I have ever read in a blog thread.
Thanks CB for your assessment of my comment, that was certainly a good way to insure that people who lurk go ahead and interact with the rest of you. Now how about if you go back and interact with some of the comments that I and others have made on different texts?
Mitch Bryant,
I have interacted regarding to the various Texts given here. People who do not give sacrificially are greedy and sinful.
The fact that you state that you do not comment here because you lack support for a position or because you are not interested in the topic is sad. It is sad because many topics and doctrinal concepts have been given attention on this blog. Topics and doctrines have been discussed here which are primary to the Christian faith. Yet, you state that you have been studious on this topic and feel you can support your views.
Sacrificial giving is a no brainer. If you are a believer, you do not own anything. It is all God’s Therefore you are to give sacrificially. Yet, you obviously give more time to the study of giving your money than you do to the great doctrines of the faith?
Yes Mitch Bryant, that is sad . . . very sad indeed.
Oh yeah, to one and all,
Anyone on this thread who does not give more than 10% of his or her yearly income to their local church whether you believe in tithing or not should not even post a comment in this thread. You are simply greedy and you know it.
Stop being greedy. Give sacrificially to your local church. Give even when it hard to give. Give when you can’t. Just give. Don’t gripe about it. Don’t split hairs about OT and NT principles on giving. Just give.
Oh yeah and another thing; If God directly blesses you, give and give more. If God does not bless you and you live in poverty, give and give more.
CB,
We may be old dogs, but I think your bite is up to your bark. I’m not a 10%’er as Dave calls us. I am a graduated tither, but I humbly, regretfully, shamedly admit I have not graduated as much as I need to.
You have challenged me to do must better. Thank you.
There seems to be some disagreement on the very basics of what law and grace mean. When it is said that we are no longer under law, it does NOT refer to the Mosaic Law unless you are a Jew who has become a Christian. Those of us who were never Jewish were never under the Mosaic Law, but were only under the universal moral law. Therefore, tithing has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that we are now under grace, since even prior to our conversion, we were not required to tithe.
Some have claimed that the tithe was “pre-[Mosaic]law,” as if that puts it into the universal moral law category; but universal moral law is written on the hearts of all men as innate understanding of right and wrong, and the tithe is not a part of that. Even if Abraham felt compelled to give a tithe to Melchizedek, such was obviously a mere custom of that day and does not establish it as a part of universal moral law.
Jesus taught the law to those who were under the law, in order to show them how much they fall short of obtaining righteousness under that law. When He told the Jews that they should have done the greater things of righteousness without leaving the lesser things as tithing undone, He was telling them that they should have fulfilled their Jewish Mosaic law. This was because they were Jews under the Mosaic law.
I’m sort of late to this game but this is a discussion that has always interested me. I’m totally in agreement with what Dave has written, but for those who still believe that 10% is a mandate I have some questions, and these are genuine questions on how you think people should go about tithing.
1. Should people tithe before or after taxes? Some place’s of work take the taxes out before you get your paycheck, so what do you use as the measurement? It also seems that the tithe in the OT was used for national purposes as well as Temple services.
2. If your employer pays for your health care, do you tithe on those benefits?
3. If you have a ministry related expense account and that’s what you buy your books from among other things, do you tithe the reimbursement?
4. If you live in a parsonage do you figure out the fair rental value and tithe on that? What about gifts of food seeing as it would lower your grocery bill?
As I said, I agree with Dave that what Paul says in 2 Corinthians should be our standard for how we give, and it is pathetic that so many Christians give so little, especially in a land of prosperity like ours. But tithing is tied to the law and to the nation of Israel. I know Abraham and Jacob offered ten percent before the law, but there were also circumcised before the law.
Just as a side note, I once worked with a woman whose pastor believed that we should give the firstfruits, meaning the first paycheck you get at a new job should go completely to the church. She was really worried about it because she wasn’t going to be able to pay her bills.
Sounds like you should consult a Jewish priest…
Job: Some more to add to your list. Do you tithe from your garden? Or your livestock? Do you tithe from your fruit trees and berry bushes?
I am with you Jon
If we are going to say that 10% of our increase must be given by gentile Christians or we sin, then we need some sound teaching on what an increase is. I assume that my income tax refund is exempt since I paid tithe on that money over the course of the year. I also assume that a portion (not all) of my retirement income will be exempt because I paid tithe on my base contributions over the course of my life. I assume the cost of producing a widget for sale is exempt because only profit is an actual increase. I assume the costs associated with working are exempt because that portion of one’s wage does not equal an increase for the wage earner. Any business major could have lots of fun with the sloppy and inconsistent way we define, or more often ignore, increase in context of paying tithes. Governments recognize these things but I have never heard them mentioned from a pulpit other than to say you are stealing from God if don’t pay 10% of your gross income. Let’s not forget that we need storehouses so those who actually raise crops and livestock can tithe too, otherwise we sin.
Questions please for all the pro-tithers:
Is tithing a Christian law? Is someone who gives 9% cheerfully and gratefully sinning?
When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees, he was speaking to Old Covenant Jews. Do we have any record of the apostles teaching Gentile believers about the OT tithe and requiring it of them? No. In fact when the Judaizers came bustling about, the church at Jerusalem issued some decrees on the gentile believers, none of which were about tithing.
Tithing is a good teaching principle. It is not a law.
Just a query here…Does anyone else here believe that there could be a high degree of correlation between one’s soteriological position(Calvinistic/non-Calvinistis) and his view on tithing? This is not to draw focus to Reformed theology per se, but the antinomian position that many Calvinists have on some issues may very well be reflected on this issue as well. With all groups there are of course exceptions, but looking for a general pattern, if one exists…..
Kevin,
If you are going to level a charge of antinomianism, please be specific. Please tell us which Law are Calvinists against?
Kevin I am a Non Calvinist and I don’t believe tithing is the rule for N.T. giving.
Tithing was only ever commanded to the Jewish people and it is not reiterated in the N.T. Even the in the Matthew 23 and Luke 11 passages Jesus was addressing the Pharisees. Further when Jesus said these things to the Pharisees He had not died yet so the N.T. was not in force. Hebrews 9:16, 17
Kevin
I too am a non-calvinist and do not believe that the tithe pertains to Christians and no I do not think that this is related to ones position on that subject. When you use the word antimonianism, how do you define that position? Do you believe that Christians are under the Law? are we somehow free from the law but still under it? If so how would you support this idea and what texts lead you to this conclusion. I will note that every time I have seen the topic of tithing discussed it is not long before accusations of greed, selfishness and finally antinomianism are made. Could it just be that as in so many areas different believers come to different expressions of the same principals?
Still waiting. Which Law are Calvinists against?
Kevin, it is about trying to listen to the Bible instead of to traditional teachings not supported by the Bible. It is not about Calvinism.
And yet, many still believe the “traditional teachings” are really what the Bible teaches! Although there are 2 responses from non-reformed who are ntt(non-tithing teachers), I would still be curious as to whether most SB preachers would hold to that position? Being an almost lifelong Baptist(from the time I joined as a boy), it has been taught from the churches I have attended almost exclusively. However, just anecdotal evidence from perusing blogs and such lead me to believe that more Calvinists reject this teaching than the average SB….just a perceived observation…. no hard stats on this
I think there may be some correlation though between those who find grace and liberty to indulge in the “gray” areas like imbibing beverage alcohol, coarse language(think Driscoll), exaltation of violence in sports(MMA), etc to also find the liberty/grace to pick and choose the beginning point of their “generosity/ cheerful giving” whether by theological conviction or pragmatic consideration.
Calvinism has no part in this discussion. Let’s keep it thY way.
Kevin,
an argument could be made that this “new” idea of non-tithing is a direct result of the battle for the Bible. Many of our new pastors have heard and rightly believe the Bible is true and must be studied completely and correctly and as such it is sufficient without adding any traditions of men. But you may be right maybe it is just the Calvinists they are responsible for everything else, right? (note this is meant as sarcasm).
Mat 23:23 NKJV – “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier [matters] of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.”
A verse I never here discussed when this topic comes up. It appears to me that Jesus is commending the tithe while at the save time encouraging that we not over look weithtier matters of the law. “These you ought to have done” indicates to me that Jesus was teaching the importance of tithing.
On the contrary, this verse gets brought up all the time. Jesus was commending the tithe, to Old Covenant Jews who were under the Mosaic Law.
It seems Jesus spoke John 3:16 to Old Covenant Jews as well.
Like it or not, Jesus commended the tithe in Matthew 23:23.
David R. Brumbelow
David: Yes he did. He was telling that Old Covenant Jew that the Law would not save him. And yet it seems you would drag us back to it.
Jesus said no such thing in Mat 23:23. He commended the Pharisees for their diligence in going beyond the minimum tithe. Then he chastised them for not doing what the law requires in justice, mercy and faithfulness. It has nothing to do with being saved by the law.
Sorry Bill, it was a bit late and now that I have rethought your response to David I realize that you were talking about John 3:16. Duh…
But again, I will have to respectfully disagree. Jesus didn’t even mention the law to Nicodemus.
I believe tithing is taught in Scripture.
I believe we should give tithes and offerings today.
A fuller explanation of my view of tithing in found at:
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2011/09/baptists-on-tithing.html
David R. Brumbelow
David: Is a Christian giving 9% sinning?
Bill, I would say this, as one who thinks that tithing is irrelevant today.
Most Christians in America today, giving 9% of their income, are falling short of the biblical concepts I described above.
They are not likely “giving as much as they are able, and even beyond their ability.”
They are not likely “giving themselves first to Christ.”
I am no man’s judge, but a 9% American giver is not likely to be someone who is sowing generously as 2 Cor 9:6 says.
Dave,
We obviously disagree on the tithe.
But it seems to me that while you don’t believe in the tithe,
you are still arguing for the tithe,
by saying that anything less than 10% is falling short.
So, in effect, we are saying the same thing.
Am I misunderstanding?
David R. Brumbelow
I’m saying that we cannot set a percentage amount that is the standard for everyone. But in prosperous America, it is hard for me to believe that anyone who is sold out to Christ and his kingdom is going to be giving 2 or 3 percent to the Lord’s work.
Each person is free to decide what God would have them give, but they are not free to spend all their money on selfish pursuits and then claim that Jesus is all that matters.
And, yes, as I said in the post, the “we don’t have to tithe” movement has too often been an excuse for giving much less than a tithe.
The NT standard is commitment, sacrifice and a love for Christ that is demonstrated in the way we give.
Dave,
Thanks for the reply and explanation.
David R. Brumbelow
Dave: I don’t disagree. But when we start creating Law, we suck the life out of giving. And giving often does not only occur to the local church. Many Christians support multiple ministries that can easily exceed some mandated percentage.
“Is a Christian giving 9% sinning?”
Well, considering the fact that he is greedy and a miserly, self-loving, dwarfed-faith wretch, I would say; Yes he is.
Don’t hold back, CB. Tell us what you really think.
You believe the same thing, Dave Miller. You just have more friends than I do and you are afraid to say it ’cause you want to keep all of them.
Sometimes it is good to have no friends, then you can say what you think and not worry about it. Freedom is a wonderful thing.
Bill Mac: “Is a Christian giving 9% sinning?”
Unless tithing is a universal compulsory law, we cannot say that a Christian giving 9% is sinning. Because so many people are accustomed to think of 10% as the law, standard, starting point (or in other ways) they then find it almost impossible to think so their giving without comparing it to 10%. Either tithing is the standard or it is not. If it is not, then comparisons fail and each individual’s giving must be judged on its own merit.
It is worth noting that Dave, while seeming to agree that the 9% giver is sinning, subtly offers two caveats. He is talking about Americans, and also applies his statement to “most” Americans. So I hear him leaving room for exceptions to the rule. I understand the spirit of what he is saying, though, in the sense that we are an amazingly affluent society, it is amazing the we, overall, give so little. If we are looking at affluence, though, we might just as well criticize most everybody for not giving 20%, because surely nearly everyone could afford it!
A tithe is a calculation.
Jesus was not a calculated giver. He gave His ALL.
So ought we.
But we don’t.
That’s why He had to come into this place. That’s why He had to break INTO the prison.
The Baptist Faith & Message says the following on Stewardship:
XIII. Stewardship
God is the source of all blessings, temporal and spiritual; all that we have and are we owe to Him. Christians have a spiritual debtorship to the whole world, a holy trusteeship in the gospel, and a binding stewardship in their possessions. They are therefore under obligation to serve Him with their time, talents, and material possessions; and should recognize all these as entrusted to them to use for the glory of God and for helping others. According to the Scriptures, Christians should contribute of their means cheerfully, regularly, systematically, proportionately, and liberally for the advancement of the Redeemer’s cause on earth.
Genesis 14:20; Leviticus 27:30-32; Deuteronomy 8:18; Malachi 3:8-12; Matthew 6:1-4,19-21; 19:21; 23:23; 25:14-29; Luke 12:16-21,42; 16:1-13; Acts 2:44-47; 5:1-11; 17:24-25; 20:35; Romans 6:6-22; 12:1-2; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2; 6:19-20; 12; 16:1-4; 2 Corinthians 8-9; 12:15; Philippians 4:10-19; 1 Peter 1:18-19.
-Baptist Faith & Message, 2000
David R. Brumbelow
Again…we are ‘exposed’.
“The Lord loves a cheerful giver”
I don’t know about you, but I really need a Savior.
So often I just pinch it out, and for the wrong reasons. And I’m not just talking about money.
W. A. Criswell on the tithe:
“But what is this proportion that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 16:2, ‘As God hath prospered him?’ What proportion? I know of only one in the Bible; namely, a tithe that belongs to the Lord (Hebrews 7:8) and an offering of love above and beyond. If a man preaches the Bible, that is what he will preach.”
-W. A. Criswell, Criswell’s Guidebook For Pastors, Broadman Press; 1980.
Criswell was longtime pastor of First Baptist Church, Dallas, TX and SBC president.
David R. Brumbelow
With all due respect David that passage was not even talking about giving to the church but was in reference to a benevolence offering to the saints at Jerusalem. Surely your are not advocating that Paul was telling the Corinthians to tithe to the Judean believers.
John,
I was just quoting a small portion of what W. A. Criswell said in supporting the tithe.
The point in the quote above is simply that there is one standard of proportionality for giving in Scripture, both OT and NT. Or at least one minimum standard.
And that standard is the tithe.
To support that, Criswell could have given any example in Scripture naming the tithe. For example, the Scripture listed above in the Baptist Faith & Message.
David R. Brumbelow
Jesus did negate the tithe for Jews by fulfilling the Law. He did not negate the tithe for Gentiles because they were never under the Law. Abraham and Jacob’s tithes were free will, not out of obligation. OT Jews were under obligation to tithe. Christians are not to give out of obligation.
Tithing is a fine principle, it is not a Christian Law.
Dave
Recently, J. Robert White, Executive Director of the Georgia Baptist Convention, stated in an address to Association Missionaries, that the reason many pastors do not preach concerning the tithe is that they do not tithe themselves. I personally give, not out of constraint, but out of thanksgiving, a tithe. If the Lord impresses me to contribute an additional “offering,” I will do so. I thought I would share a comical account of a church dealing with this issue when I was 15 years of age. My dad was the chairman of deacons and they were discussing if the Bible truly taught the giving of a tithe. My dad believed that the tithe was an Old Testament concept and made a mention that he would only begin to tithe if our pastor was a Levite. He looked at the pastor, E.L. Bradburry, and asked him if he was a Levite? His response was, “brother Tommy, the L in my initials stands for Levi.” Enough said.
How exactly does Mr. White know why a pastor does not preach the tithe? Comments like that are completely unproductive and assume that the only reason for a non-tithe position is one of rebellion or greed. Quite likely the pastor may have realized that he as a believer in Jesus is now free from the law and must now only obey the law of the spirit of life that sets men free from the law of sin and death. But I do think it is great that the GBC director has decided to judge the motives of pastor. judge not lest you be judged.
It sounds like Mr White may have slipped into the Bulverism so common in modern public discourse. Don’t show how a person is wrong, just assume they’re wrong, and assert whatever motive you can imagine for how they got that way. It *is* unproductive (as C. S. Lewis put it, “Until Bulverism is crushed, reason can play no effective part is human affairs.”).
Ben, you are stealing my thunder. I have been working on an article for a few days now. I am reading over old threads from several blogs gathering statements that are completely unprovable but are stated by ministers as fact. It demonstrates why sometimes we ministers are not taken seriously.
Sorry about that, but I’ve been harping on Bulverism for years. And it’s not just ministers, this permeates modern culture, both as full-blown Bulverism, and its constituent parts ( 1) merely assuming your opponent must be wrong, and not bothering to actually show *that* they are wrong; and 2) assuming that your own speculations about others (particularly about their motivations) *must* be right, without bothering to even *try* to gather sufficient evidence to show it; ).
Dean
Looks like you could write that entire article from the comment stream of this one topic. It amazes me that people can make some of the comments that they make and yet claim the name of Christ. It also reminds me why I seldom comment on blogs, very little valuable discussion ensues and few if any minds are changed. But hey at least I learned I am either greedy because I don’t tithe or I an generous in my giving because I give more than my car payment each month.
I’ve frequently been asked, when teaching, “Is it OK if I (do this or that .. go to casinos, drink wine with dinner, play the lottery, etc..) and still be a Christian?” My response was always the same:
Our task is to be in the world, living as much like Christ as we can. It’s not to be in Christ, living as much like the world as we can.
I once had an OT professor point out that the tithe was only one small portion of all that OT faithful were required to give. If we want to return to the OT giving system, we should return to the whole shebang, including the levitical temple requirements. What we’ve done is isolated one part of the OT giving standard and highlighted it as remaining in force even when other giving requirements are no longer in effect.
This same prof followed up with the point that in the NT the question is not, “How much do I have to give?” but “How much can I legitimately keep?” Yet we remain fixated on the old standard and look for the bare minimum obedience necessary to satisfy the law. The Pharisees would be proud.
The way that the law works on the sinful nature, it would seem to me that giving would generally increase where the congregation is freed from the requirements of a law-like percentage.
I didn’t read all the comments, but one of the main issues with tithing is, we have lost the aspect of WORSHIP in tithing/giving. It was a ceremonial aspect to the Jewish worship (Matthew 6:2-4). We have turned it into a chore, or a deed. We have removed the worship of giving. Similarly we have lost the worship of praying, singing, preaching. We have allowed them to become chores we accomplish and not DAILY aspects to worship. What if we brought to the house of God, DAILY!
Good observations Dave! Just another area we can reform back to a biblical model in our churches today.
Dave Miller,
A good discussion for you to start would be the nature of the law and its relation to both the New Testament believer and the unbeliever.
Dave, I thank you for your article and all the discussion that has followed. I want to throw a few thoughts out that may have been covered and I missed them. One is the idea of moral, civil and ceremonial law in the OT. The distinctions between the three are arbitrary. Lev. 19:18 says love your neighbor as yourself. The very next verse says do not wear clothes woven of two kinds of material. Verses that are side by side are seen one as universal and the other is not. All of the Law has to do with a covenant relationship between God and Israel. For some to arbitrarily say this one is beneficial for the church and this one is not is not universally accepted as the best way of handling the Law. More and more is being written about the Law being a unit and not meant to be divided as mentioned above. Even if you want to arbitrarily declare some moral, civil, and ceremonial why is the tithe no moral? We have done away with preaching cross planting fields as sinful because no where in the NT is it mentioned. It must have been civil. However, giving is mentioned throughout the NT. It is evident that what was done in the OT – giving – is expected to be done in the NT. Why is the tithe ceremonial then?
Finally, I ask why why is II Corinthians 9 the standard of giving. Paul is addressing a church that had committed a year earlier to help the poor in Jerusalem and had not done so. He shames them in chapter 8 reminding them how much the churches in Macedonia had given from their poverty. (vs. 2) He goes on to say that Jesus was a giver in verse 9. He was rich and became poor so you could become rich. If II Corinthians is the standard then we can conclude that a person can give whatever they want to whoever they want and God be satisfied. We do not have to support the local church but merely give to the poor anywhere. These two chapter do not exhaust what the NT says about giving. To build your entire principles of stewardship on these chapters I believe would be a mistake.
Dean,
Thank you for using text to support your position. you comment is clear and well thought out. I would like to interact with the points and texts that you raised. that will take a little work on my part, so I will have to hold off for a little while. I would like to be sure that I am clear that you are saying that the divisions of law have been arbitrary and that you argue for the tithe being part of the moral law of God? Have I misunderstood that part of your comment. If this is one of your points then can I ask how we can determine that tithing is moral? Also as you have pointed out sometimes we see different laws side by side. How and why do we make distinction between these laws?
Thanks again for you well thought out comment, I look forward to interacting with you on those other ideas later.
Mitch, I am not necessarily declaring tithing is moral law but I am declaring it does not necessarily have to be placed in ceremonial law. Tithing is giving and giving is done throughout NT. The list of what is moral, civil and ceremonial is debatable. It is debatable if we should even divide the Law as such.
Dean,
Your argument that giving is moral law is correct. It is not the giving that is ceremonial, but the required percentage.
‘The Moral Law’ needs defining here, I think.
Definition of MORAL LAW
: a general rule of right living; esp : such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God’s will, of conscience, of man’s moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason
‘tithing’ cannot specifically be labeled a ‘moral law’, no
Dean,
Thanks for clearing that up, I kind of that that was you position be then further in your comment I thought I may have misunderstood. I agree with you here and have to admit I have seen several different ways to categorize OT law but have never seen and actual justification for dividing or determining if a law fits one category or another. I will say that when the tithe discussion comes up, those who support tithing requirements and use legal divisions in their arguments normally want tithe laws to be moral and universal. Since the tithe involved the priests and the temple along with providing for the theocracy, I don’t understand how it is not classified as part of the ceremonial/civic law.
Mitch, thanks for discussion. I love Stuart and Fee’s txt book on hermeneutics. I’m at home and not in study so can’t quote them exactly. They hold the Law divisions are arbitrary and a better way of studying the laws are not ceremonial, civil or moral but rather theological. They all deal with God and Israel and have theological implications. Blessings on you brother. I’m taking my kids to eat!!!!
Dean,
I agree that Fee and Stewart’s book is a great resource. Their discussions on interpreting OT law and prophecy for NT believers helped to shape many of my current positions. I have been greatly blessed by their work and use their principles often. Brother I know dinner with you kids was much better than playing with the children of this discussion.
How exactly does Mr. White know why a pastor does not preach the tithe? Comments like that are completely unproductive and assume that the only reason for a non-tithe position is one of rebellion or greed. Quite likely the pastor may have realized that he as a believer in Jesus is now free from the law and must now only obey the law of the spirit of life that sets men free from the law of sin and death. But I do think it is great that the GBC director has decided to judge the motives of pastors in his state, I pray they show him more grace.
Ken, that is the million dollar question. I am not advocating a tenth but have seen some dismiss the tithe as ceremonial law. I’m willing to debate that conclusion.
Dean,
I’m confused about what you mean. You say you’re not advocating a tenth, but “tithe” means “tenth.” As such, the tithe ought to be dismissed as Jewish-covenant law, as it is not part of the universal moral law.
Ken, sorry for confusion. Some may argue since tithing is a type of giving and giving is a moral issue then tithing can be seen as moral law.
Dean, that does not follow. Since eating kosher food was a type of obeying, and since obeying is a moral issue, then can eating kosher be seen as moral law? It was moral for the Jew because God commanded it for the Jew, but it is not moral for us because God did not command it for us.
Ken, I do understand but the difference is it would be a stretch to find any passages dealing with diet in NT. There are dozens that deal with giving. Blessings Ken
As far as I can tell, Christians are not required to tithe. I don’t think it makes sense to apply that now. We have to consider our situations and what we feel called by God to do, and act accordingly. For some, that may mean giving beyond a tithe, while for others it may mean giving less than 10 percent.
” We have to consider our situations and what we feel called by God to do, and act accordingly.”
“. . . what we ‘feel’ called by God to do . . . .”???
What does “what we feel” mean?
The Bible is very plain. We are to die to ourselves, take up the cross, and follow Jesus. Period. To die to self means to sacrifice one’s self, to deny one’s self.
How could any follower of Christ put more of God’s money on any one thing for himself rather than he gives to the Kingdom’s enterprise as is manifested tangibly by the local church and think such giving to be right and proper before the Lord Jesus?
It is not right. It is wrong. It is greed. It is not sacrifice. It is not taking up the cross and dying to self.
Again, if you are paying more each month for your car than you give to your local church, sale your car. Get a cheaper car and give more to your local church.
The sin of greed is an easily rationalized sin among the people of God.
CB Scott, I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but some people in the church operate successful businesses while others are barely making it in this economy. Some people have a lot more money left over after their expenses than do others. Each person has to give according to what they have; that’s a biblical principle. Thank you for your generosity. It’s extremely commendable!
CB,
Who made you the Judge? I get it—greed is bad and we should give all we have. But your castigations solve nothing. No man ever got closer to God by giving more money—you can’t buy your way into an ideal relationship with Christ. Taking up the cross and dying to oneself and to sin is something one must do long before the offering plate comes around. Those who have died to themselves have no need to be preached to about the amount they contribute, while those who are not living a crucified life need preaching of a different kind. Preaching about money to those with heart problems can do nothing except make them feel more guilty and make you feel either superior or frustrated. So what’s the point? If you want more people to give more money, then preach to them to crucify self and get close to Christ, and more giving will naturally result (if it bears fruit). Brow-beating them with Pharisaical financial formulas is pointless.
Ken Hamrick,
No one made me a judge anymore than anyone made you one.
You stated, “f you want more people to give more money, then preach to them to crucify self and get close to Christ, and more giving will naturally result (if it bears fruit). Brow-beating them with Pharisaical financial formulas is pointless.”
Can you not read? What do you think I have been saying for two days?
It is evident from Scripture that we are to die to self, take up the cross, and follow Jesus. If we do that we will sacrifice in our giving. We will not seek to justify greed by comparing OT principles to NT principles. We will give. It is that simple. We will give sacrificially.
As I stated earlier, if you are not giving sacrificially, which is in all probably over 10% for anyone on this thread, you have no business commenting on this particular subject. Now, if you want to feel judged by me Ken Hamrick, have yourself a grand ole time at it. But, in the meantime, get off your greedy, self-centered high horse and stop twisting Scripture to hid your greed and begin to sacrificially give to your local church as you should and if you have to live in a mud hut or a van down by the river to do, then do it.
“”"No man ever got closer to God by giving more money—you can’t buy your way into an ideal relationship with Christ.”"”
Ken, can you point out where someone made this statement. I’ve read quickly through the thread but I must have missed it.
“”"If you want more people to give more money, then preach to them to crucify self and get close to Christ,”"”
So, I’m taking it from that statement that preachers should eliminate “all” sermons that preach responsibility to any and all commands of God? In other words, “don’t preach against specific sins” but only speak in positive, general terms.
You might want to examine how many of the parables dealt with “money” before you advocate never talking about financial responsibility in regard to righteousness.
Also, failing to give sacrificially to the Lord, which would seem to start at where God starts, IS addressing a “heart” problem it seems to me.
As one with a “heart” problem I realize I needed some highly specialized intervention. Talking about “general health” would have left me dead in the emergency room.
I preach on “stealing from God” as a sin just like I try to hit every other sin when it comes up in the Bible.
I don’t buy the “General” approach to preaching. Every time I see Jesus preaching on sin to people, He is pretty “specific.”
Of course, none of this will be sufficient to discredit your allegations in your mind because you don’t believe giving less than 10% is a sin. So, now I’ve wasted all this space.
PS — The tithe didn’t originate with the Pharisees so it is not “their formula.”
“Every time I see Jesus preaching on sin to people, He is pretty “specific.”
And He was certainly very “specific” about money.
“PS — The tithe didn’t originate with the Pharisees so it is not “their formula.”
Frank L.,
You are right as rain. The concept you revealed must be taken into consideration when people talk about giving. Chris Roberts identified a truth earlier in this thread also when he stated the concept of the Hebrew tithe was more than 10%.
That is also something New Testament Christians must take into account when they do their accounting of their accountability of their stewardship of God’s belongings.
Do either of you really think that the attitude you display here has no bearing on whether or not you yourselves are leading the crucified life that you are preaching?—or is only your wallet crucified?
Well Ken Hamrick,
Since you brought up”wallet crucifixion,” let me ask you if yours is crucified to at least 10% dead? If not, put it on the altar and end its greedy dominance over your life to an even higher percentage and be free once and for all.
CB,
I may have to answer to Christ for not giving enough. I’m sure that there have been many, many times when I have not given enough, and even now, how much is enough is often an uncertain matter for me (use it against me if you will). But I am just as sure that Christ is not interested in holding me to some Jewish percentage. If you feel that He is some sort of divine rent-collector, well that’s on you. Honestly, I don’t keep track of percentages. But if I did, and if I found that I had attained that golden number of 10%, would I be justified in coming here and talking down to those who fell short of that number—of calling them greedy, selfish sinful people? Would reaching that magic amount put me on a plane of righteousness so high that I could dictate to the sinners below me that if their car payment (or house payment, or who knows?) was more than their God-payment then they were scoundrels who should repent? Beware, brother: God measures more than your giving, and you will have to answer to Him, too.
Ken. I think you judge out of ignorance. I am only giving my opinion on the posts.
I have not judged anyone’s attitude based on their position
Dave, thank you for supporting the view of “tithing” as the minimum, starting place for righteous giving:
1) Giving at least 10% is a voluntary act
2) Giving less than 10% is not generous
3) Giving less than 10% does not demonstrate a passion for the Kingdom
4) Giving less than 10% is only a sacrifice in one’s own mind and economy
So, I don’t see a problem with meeting the standard God established in the O.T. and NEVER revoked in the N.T. as a starting point of giving.
Everything you said about the N.T. pattern is supported by someone who believes in starting at 10% and moving up.
Frank
You have given four points here, could you list at least one text in context that supports any or all of these four?
As one you is not “a hard-core 10%’er” but feels the O.T. is helpful in instructing a righteous pattern for living let me say that I feel the “give what you feel” or “give when it is a sacrifice,” or such general statements about giving sound a little like,
You should pray, but never teach them how; or you should study your Bible but never teach them how; or you should memorize Scripture but never teach them how, etc.
The tithe is a “target.” It objectifies a discipline of the Christian faith. I feel people do much better when they have an objective “target.” God gave us a target.
Years ago the SBC Convention tried a program something like, “just have people start at 1% and keep increasing until they get to 10% or more.” That worked about as well as a screen door on a submarine (a metaphor this former submariner understand in an intimate way).
It did not work because it starts with an concept of “failure” and tries to lead to “success.” It sets the bar in a place that God has not set it. It violates the whole idea of “grace.” GRace is something MORE than law, not something less.
OK . . . I’m done. As Mitch (I think) said, nobody is going to change their minds, but it sure would be nice if we all changed our giving — by increasing it. I’m going to pray for the strength to do exactly that starting this week.
Pray for me . . . I tend to have a low threshold for sacrifice.
Frank L.,
A more excellent comment has not been made on this thread. Frank L., I read every comment you make on SBC Voices. I know you have suffered some things that are rough stuff. However, you always seem to have true grit and steel about you in matters of biblical faith. I admire you for that and I do so even when we greatly disagree.
It may not mean much, but I have prayed for you and will continue to do so.
CB, if I were a better man I would not need your affirmations. But, alas, I am just a man and not much the better. Those are very encouraging words.
These next 21 days or so will probably be the most challenging in my life. Your prayers are greately appreciated–and I mean that with the utmost sincerity.
My son is finishing the last weeks of his “Delayed Entry Program” to go into the Navy. We are fighting some dental problems and the deadline. Right now, ministry has taken a toll on him and he wants nothing to do with God or church. You can imagine how much that hurts.
Also, my daughter is entering the last two weeks of a “touch and go” preganancy with my second granchild–a grandson. This will likely–most likely–be her last pregnancy. She is fighting huge obstacles.
I only mention this because you said you were praying for me. I want you to be able to pray more effectively.
I ask forgiveness for the brothers on the thread for this personal “hijack.” I so greatly respect you, CB. We don’t always agree on particulars, but we certainly agree on Who we love and serve.
I will resist strongly that the tithe is a mandatory practice, but as I have said, I think it is a fine principle. I think tithing represents enough (for most people) to be sacrificial and enough to support the needs of the ministry.
I have no idea what my percentages are now. We support our local church, as we always have, both financially and through various (far too many) offices. We also are strong supporters of Samaritan’s Purse and World Vision.
We should teach our people to be generous, to give gladly, to sacrifice. We should teach them how the tithe was used in the OT as a means to support God’s work. And then we should expect them to exercise wisdom as the Spirit guides them. We should not hammer them with percentages and guilt.
Bill Mac,
Excellent comment. Your comment contains no debate about OT giving principles and NT giving principles. There are no efforts to justify greed and disguise it as having a profound understanding of biblical truth. Yet, you do present the truth as presented in both Testaments, that of sacrificial giving.
I agree that “we should not hammer them with percentages and guilt.”
However, we are guilty, as is any Christ follower who does not give sacrificially. And it is not a hard thing to determine if we are giving sacrificially or not. It is a matter of personal inventory and simple math.
One might as well become a Protestantized Jew.
I tithe. I believe that it is biblical to do so. I count it a privilege to give my 10%, and I give more as God graciously provides in my life and through my work. Do I feel commanded by law to tithe? No. I consider it a worshipful, loving response to a merciful, providentially caring God. I have yet to give as much as the widow in the Temple.
I guess I’m just confused. I thought the law was still in effect and that it is perfect, and that because it is still in effect and perfect, that Jesus fullfilled the requirements of the law on my behalf, lest I continue in vain to attempt to have my sin debt paid.
Jesus fulfilling of my sin debt did not exorcise the law. Rather it fulfilled and gave meaning to the law. I’m still, to this day, under the requirement of the law, but because Jesus was my propitiation, I’m now justified. Not pardoned, rather I’m no longer guilty.
The law’s purpose in making men aware of the ineffectual animal sacrifice compared with the effectual sacrifice of the pascal lamb is really not pertinent to me today. My family, nor anyone in my community has offered a blood sacrifice in attempted atonement for sins. So that aspect of the law has long been settled in this part of Mississippi. But the living by faith and faithfully designating a significant portion of my income to God’s service continues to be remind me of His saving grace and His Divine provision.
So help me understand. Are you saying that you’ve chosen which laws apply to you? If you are still under the requirement of the law, then how can you state one law is more required than the other?
Isn’t designating a “significant portion,” still short of what God commands? If you are taking care of your family, but rather relying upon others to provide are you not commiting a sin? Doesn’t 1 Timothy 5:8 apply?
I am merely attempting to point out that when we hold ourselves up to a yard stick and compare one person’s tithes (or faith, or obedience, or whatever) are we not falling into the same sins of the Pharisees? How then can you claim that your faith is stronger (and better) than others simply because you give more, and receive more?
I’m going to stick a thumb in some eyes. If it isn’t “law”, then how come a single number keeps popping up?
Greg, that was a simple and yet profound point. I don’t know why so many others miss something so obvious. If it looks like the law, and acts like the law why would it be something else?
- Jared
Greg,
I answered that from my perspective. I don’t think it has anything to do with “law,” especially since tithing had nothing to do with the Law in the first place.
To reiterate my position: “just as grace exceeds the law, grace-living, including grace-giving should exceed the Law.”
Ten percent is simply a “bench-mark, or guide” as Paul teaches in Galatians. That’s the point at which ones giving matches that of the Law. Grace goes beyond that.
Giving $20 a week when one makes $1000 a week just seems like a person who is still under the curse of the Law, not living in the bounty of grace.
I just call it a “target, a guide” a shadow looking for substance. I’m not advocating it has anything to do with one’s salvation so I don’t understand the reference to “legalism and the Law.”
Also, “tithing” as it normally is used in most SBC churches I am familiar with is a general term for regular, systematic giving. The Old English meaning of strictly a “tenth” is only part of the equation. The idea that “tithing” recognized that God owns “all” of it is primary to understanding the original O.T. practice.
Plus, even “grace-giving” is represented by a number that Jesus used: it stops at 100% (“all that you have”). So, really when I talk about tithing I’m not talking about a single number at all, but a range of numbers between 10% to 100%.
Until one has given 100% then there’s always room for improvement.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Frank
Your argument here makes no sense to me. First where in Galatians did Paul mention 10% of anything “Ten percent is simply a “bench-mark, or guide” as Paul teaches in Galatians. That’s the point at which ones giving matches that of the Law. Grace goes beyond that.”
How do you not consider tithing part of the law since it is mentioned there the most in the OT?
Also if you define tithing as “regular and systematic giving” then how come you say that the man who regularly gives $20.00 is not tithing?
Lastly, if tithing is not about a single number but a range of numbers why do you start the range at 10% and continue to 100%. Do you honestly believe that anyone can tithe 100% and how did you arrive at the arbitrary starting point of 10 without using the law?
All of your statements sound wonderful until they are looked at critically and in light of scripture, which by the way you still have not used any to back op this argument.
One last question, how do I determine if I should give 10% or 11% (just picked these percentages because they fall in line with your scale)? I assume that I should pray and allow the Holy Spirit to Guide my giving, Am I to assume the Holy Spirits guidance doesn’t kick in until 10%?
This is something that my wife and I have recently begun to understand. For years we were brow beaten that we must give at least 10% and then some from our heart. When I lost my job (after my wife had just given birth to twins 4 months prior) and was only able to find one paying less over nine months later, we continued to give 10% of our gross income. However, now that our circumstances had changed, despite massive cuts (no cable, no cell phones, cheap food, no car payment) in our personal lives we were bleeding financially. However, dutifully we gave our 10% as our pastor indicated that was a sign of true “spiritual maturity”.
Here we are now some years later, and in order to keep our car, house and food in our belly’s, we went into debt (also biblically unsound). When we started down this long road of debt, I asked the pastor and he replied that if we were giving willfully, “God’s math” will work it and we will find we have what we needed. We are now under the thumb of massive credit card debt and have begun to cut our contributions to the church back considerably more than if we had cut up front and avoided the debt.
We are shamed now because we don’t give 10%. Within the last two years as we’re working to pay off what is this massive amount of debt. I wonder if we don’t give the 10% as others have suggested, are we not spiritually mature? Is the pastor who makes 4 times as much as I do (twice as much as my previous career compensation) really justified in telling us that if we don’t give the full 10% we’re stealing from God?
I’ve never understood how loss of job, giving a tithe, or whatever could result in massive debt. Over the years, I’ve been in those shoes, and everytime, it was not because of the job, or my giving, but rather the choices I made to attempt to continue to maintain a reasonably good standard of living. When I came to understand that, I began to divest myself of such things. I currently drive a 1998 truck with 352,000 miles on it. My wife, drives a 1998 Lumina with 130,000 miles. But we certainly have it better than we did in the mid-1980′s when my own sinful ways placed us in an almost unteneable situation.
I learned that God can and does meet our needs. I learned that he has automobiles available. Our last vehicle just stopped, and the next day a man called my wife asking if we could use a car. This car was a five-year old Chevelle which was crushed on the passenger side. Everything else worked, so I drilled some holes, used a body puller and jerked the sheet metal out enough to open and close the door. (Looked like a mafia hit car.) About two weeks later a man came by to ask if we would be willing to accept a car he wanted to donate to us. It was an early 1970′s era station wagon. Then a man gave us a 1969 Buick, followed by a man who gave me two F250 pickups. I was ready to open a used car lot.
I didn’t know at the time that God already had a use for those extra automobiles, but shortly they were gone to serve in ministries.
I’m saying all this to say, that I believe that where God leads, God provides. He has sent us around the world doing missions, and allowed us to serve for extended times outside the country on the mission field. We’ve never had much. Today, we don’t have a TV except to play DVDs. But, the only debt we have is what we’ve chosen to make, and we simply didn’t need it. We’ve always been faithful to give above a tithe, because I believe God owns everything anyway, and I believe that He wants me to realize that work is not to meet my needs, rather it is to fulfill the mandate of Christ to be salt and light to a dark world. As long as I’m in the center of His will, He will meet my needs.
I sometimes am moved, I believe, by His Spirit to share needs with others, and from time to time people have participated in my ministry unsolicited. But I don’t understand how giving any amount could possibly bring about massive debt.
Trey D,
Sounds as though you are in a big mess. Hindsight is 20/20, I’ll bet you wish you had done things differently.
First of all you do not give 10%. You are not under the law , you are under grace. You do not have to give a certain percentage of your income, but you do give.
I would like to give you what I think is sound advice. There is no law that says we have to give once a week. Neither a law that says we have to give once a month. The NT tells us we are to give.
You are ashamed you are not giving 10%. You have to understand
God knows our failures and weaknesses. He also knows the intent of your heart. Work it out with God on what to give, it may be different amounts at certain times. Do what you can to help your debt situation,
and avoid it in the future. When God allows you to see daylight, then you can increase your giving. God bless you and your family.
Trey D.
No, the pastor is not justified.
Trey,
No he is not justified in telling you that as a matter of fact I will go farther and say that he is guilty of spiritual malpractice and bordering on disqualification for his calling. How any man who calls himself pastor can sit with one under his care and make such pronouncements is beyond me. Brother as Frank said below you are free from the law and not just part of it but every last bit of it. And as far as the shame that you feel, since you are a child of God you need not be ashamed for there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Brother Gods word is clear, if you fail in one point of the law your guilty of the whole thing, thats why grace is so wonderful you no longer need to worry about failing in the law. You don’t need to tithe or do anything else to be accepted, everything was done on the cross at Calvary and to prove that God did two things. He raised His son from the dead, demonstrating His victory over death and He gave you the Holy Spirit as a deposit on you reward. He gave you that Holy Spirit so that you could listen to Him. I advise you to stop listening to this pastor, fix your money problems, give cheerfully as the Spirit directs (not out of guilt or shame) and start looking for a new church cause the one your at doesn’t seem to be ministering to you at all.
Dave, what do you think would happen if you stood up in front of your church and told them that you gave 0.5% to the Lord, but you did it with a generous heart? I think the reality is that everyone in your church would have a serious issue with you. Or perhaps your deacons said similar things. Do you think your church wouldn’t see that as a contradiction?
Nate, did you read the post? If you did, then you would know that your scenario runs directly contrary to what I advocated here.
Since it is so foreign to what I said, I will not respond to your question.
Dave, I did read your post and in the majority of your responses you attempt to state that tithing is not regulated in the NT. Yet, the inference of my post was that certain levels of giving are seen by other believers as sub-standard, certainly of pastors and deacons (who probably shouldn’t be held to a higher standard, yet are). Nevertheless, my post did get a response from you, in that, my percentages were beyond the pale and didn’t even deserve a response. Yet, you have consistently advocated that the heart should govern NT giving. Clearly, it is not a the 0.5 or 1% level, though. And, while I understand and agree with that, at what level do you think your congregation would move from totally flabbergasted to being comfortable? That was my point… Sorry that I went so far the other way to make it.
Since the Bible does not set a specific amount that any person should give, I don’t think I can do it either – to go beyond what the Bible commands is not good practice.
My suspicion would be that Americans who are giving less than the OT standard of the tithe probably have some spiritual/financial issues that they need to work through. Overspending. Self-indulgence. Lack of financial care. Whatever it is.
But I cannot set an amount and say, “Below this amount is sin.” The Bible doesn’t say that so neither can I.
When people are filled with the Spirit, he motivates generosity. So the key is not to apply an artificial and biblically unwarranted percentage or standard, but to point people to Christ and to invest in the kingdom. Giving flows from that – “first they gave themselves to the Lord.”
“first they gave themselves to the Lord.” . . .and their money came following after, spilling out everywhere they went. . . . and the Church grew and was established wherever they did go.
“”to go beyond what the Bible commands is not good practice. “”
How is it going “beyond what the Bible commands” to teach about tithing in the O.T.?
Or, are you saying there is “no” instructive value for the O.T.?
What is extrabiblical about teaching: “In the O.T. the measure for giving established by God was ten percent. (and you could talk about the FEstival Tithe and Poverty Tithe). But, in the N.T. the measure of giving is related to the grace of God poured out for us on Calvary. Grace-giving is not based upon a “law” but upon one’s gratitude for the grace of God.”
Is that not a “Biblical” approach to giving? Of course, this is the abbreviated version.
“”When people are filled with the Spirit, he motivates generosity.”"
Do you feel, then, that most of your people are filled with the Spirit according to the measure of the giving they display?
Only 20% of a typical church gives anywhere near ten percent. If your church is “typical,” then your view of “generosity” seems suspect.
I mean, it sounds nice and it sounds scholarly, but in reality is there any way to suggest that a “spirit-filled person would give $20 to the church weekly and keep $980 for themselves?
I could stand in the pulpit and declare that does not represent a “Spirit-filled sacrifice according to my reading of the example of spirit-filled people in the N.T.” and do it will holy unction.
In regard to: they may have other debts. Well, that may be true. But, if everyone gives according to what they have left over then isn’t that simply giving “left-overs” to God.
My bottom-line is that the “full counsel of God” includes the O.T. Grace demands more, not less.
Frank, I’m not interested in debating with the fictions you have created to misrepresent my views. Don’t have time to play that game. If you want to discuss what I said, that would be fine.
“My suspicion would be that Americans who are giving less than the OT standard of the tithe probably have some spiritual/financial issues that they need to work through. Overspending. Self-indulgence. Lack of financial care. Whatever it is.” I think Americans should be “believers” in this context.
However, your comment above does not really jive with your next statement, “But I cannot set an amount and say, ‘Below this amount is sin.’ The Bible doesn’t say that so neither can I.”
Unless I’m reading your response wrong, you just impled that those who are giving less than 10% have a money issue, and those issues seem to suggest poor stewardship, which, while not necessarily being sins of commission, they certainly imply omission.
Also, you did chide me about the 0.5% or 1% pct I posted, but then you state that you cannot call any pct. a sin, because the bible doesn’t. I’m not sure you can have that one both ways.
So, I guess where I’m trying to go is that I do think that the bible is teaching a “tithing” principle, very clearly. As others have said, it was there before the Law (Abraham) and Jesus nor the rest of the NT ever dismiss it. Moreover, when giving is mentioned in the NT, generosity is spoken of. Yet, without any marker to determine what “generosity” is there can never be a call to that style of giving…
I’m amazed at some of the “heart reading” going on here with comments that people are trying to get away with giving the minimum, etc. Just because someone is trying to debate the topic at hand and does not advocate for the tithe does not mean they are trying to get away with giving the least amount possible.
Mark
Thank you for pointing that out. I too have been amazed by that the total lack of respect for fellow Christians and the disregard for sound Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. As a seminary student I dare say that if I treat a fellow student in this manner in a classroom I would, and should, be told to tone it down. Also if my handling of scriptural texts were this shoddy I am sure my grades would suffer. Very few comments advocating a tithe have dealt with any actual scripture and certainly have not dealt with any of the issues raised by the other side.
One of the most besetting and obvious sins of seminary students, faculty, staff, and administrators is greed. Next seems to be jealousy and envy. Of course, pride gets us all and that is especially true of Christians with degrees.
Give your money sacrificially and don’t gripe about it. Sacrifice personal time normally devoted to pleasure and sleep and give yourself to study and your grades will not suffer.
cb scott,
The attitude you have on display here (in this post and in others) does not reflect the attitude of Christ. Condescension (in language) was not one of Christ’s methods of teaching.
You assume that those who say that the teaching on tithing in churches today has been off-base are only doing saying this because they are greedy or prideful or are only interested in self-gratification. While that could conceivably true for some, for many this is not the case. The teaching on tithing in many churches has long left the moorings of a Biblical basis (as indicated by many posts above). When pastors who live in multistory mansions behind gated communities tell a poor (in finances) lay person struggling with medical bills and job loss that if they don’t give 10% to that particular church God will curse them, then they should be ashamed. You won’t find support for that sort of teaching in scripture. In fact, it is highly reminiscent of the teachings of the Pharisees who put more rules on God’s people and making it more difficult to serve God.
A question: If I gave 50% of all I earned (gross income, to those who care) to a Bible-based charity but gave nothing to my local church, then is that sinful or not? I argue that many pastors would say “yes”, but I bet they’d have a hard time finding any scriptural basis.
JP,
Are you giving sacrificially to your local church? If you are not, then start. Your calling is not to measure the square footage of your pastor’s home.
(Besides, that has already been done. Ben Cole and I did that back in 2007 and published it on The Baptist Blogger.)
Your calling, as a believer (if you are one) is to take up the cross, die to yourself, and follow Jesus. One thing that dying to yourself means is that you will cease to live for your own pleasure and live holy before God and man and give sacrificially of your money toward the advancement of the Kingdom of God through a local church.
And yes, if you are not, you are guilty of the sin of greed and self-worship and it is very fair to call you a miserly wretch because that is what you are if you are not giving sacrificially to your local church.
For what it’s worth, I worked at Membership Services–a church software firm that was competitive in the 80s–and we had a stewardship product that permitted churches and synagogues to bill their members for the tithe. The organization that used it–I won’t reveal what it was but it was religious–apparently based the levy on approximate value of house, car, expenditures, place of work, job, etc.
In reality, if we really do believe the commandment is 10%, I don’t see anything wrong with billing members accordingly. That way we’ve confronted them on their otherwise sinful behavior. Just like we should do if they’re committing adultery or stealing.
And if you catch the irony of this situation v. the recent tip kerfuffle, you get a gold star.
Greg Harvey,
You are right. Made mention of that early in this thread. However, I am sure you will agree that we need to sacrifice and give the Gold Star to someone else so they can give it to someone else so they can give . . .;-)
You know I’m just being irascible. Ed Stetzer–Mr. Polling and Statistics–has pointed out that Southern Baptist churches in general do better in economic downturns than other churches due to the tendency to teach a strict tithe. There is no doubt whatsoever that your local congregation will be stronger if you give faithfully, regularly, and generously. And teaching a strict tithe is one way to teach faithful giving and it is very effective fiscally for the local church. But teaching a strict standard can result in someone giving for the wrong reason.
I think teaching the tithe as the first answer to the question “How do I start?” with respect to stewardship is brilliant. But I’d add to it: “But before you give, you spend time in prayer and determine in your heart before God what you will give. It’s your responsibility to start somewhere and where you start reflects back to God how you value what he has given to you in Christ Jesus.”
The natural next question is: “help me out a little…what should I discuss with Him as a starting point?” And the natural next answer is to show the history of giving in both the OT and NT. A simple starting place is the tithe. But the destination is that the believer live life with a open hands preparing to both receive God’s blessings into her/his hand and to participate with God in blessing others with those blessings we’ve received. I honestly believe the only time the believer is “in trouble” with God is not when he/she fails to give 10%, but when he/she gives grudgingly with a closed hand or what we might call a tight fist.
The sin there isn’t one of proportion, i.e. “10%”. It is one of ingratitude. And it isn’t illustrated in the Bible via a lack of giving to church. It is illustrated by lying about how much one gives (Ananias and Sapphira), through a lack of thankfulness (only one of the ten returning…a tithe I might add…to thank Jesus for curing them from leprosy), and by comparison with giving everything (the widow’s mite.)
EVERY offering is a love offering to God…except the one that is designed to reply to a standard that pleases the eyes of men around us. Love God. Give. Do it generously and faithfully. And keep your eyes open to how God blesses your tiny gift and multiplies it like Jesus multiplied the bread and fish.
And if you ABSOLUTELY INSIST on someone else helping you with a starting place: start with 10%. But commit to God on your knees with your whole heart before you give the first penny. And then keep your word.
Excellent summing up, Greg.
If that religious organization taxed its members based on their car, house, expenditures, etc, then I would love to know the biblical justification for that. That is not a tithe on their increase, it is a tax on their possessions. I hope they weren’t a Christian organization.
The member could defend the tithe by sharing income data I was told.
The specific situation isn’t relevant, to be honest, either. It’s whether it is sinful or not to not give 10%. If it is, then billing the member should be acceptable.
That is a good way to bring the attendance down from 500members to 25 members very fast.
Greg, billing someone would violate the “free-will aspect of giving.”
However, I do regularly send out letters reminding people that “love is grand, but gas runs the heater.”
I would add that it isn’t unusual for a Catholic parish to base the levy for their parish school on whether or not the member is perceived to tithe and their ability to afford the levy. But, no, I learned this while doing mortgage servicing software for another company, not while at Membership Services.
Greg Harvey,
You’ve gotta be kidding.
It was part of our PChurch III stewardship product. Wish I could point to documentation on it, but that was an awfully long time ago. It wasn’t our most aggressively advertised feature, as you might guess, Jess.
you are kidding
(I hope)
Greg Harvey,
I get bills from doctors, electrical company, phone company, banks,
and misc. The first time I get a bill from a church, I would pay it, but
that would be the last time I would even be on the church property.
I would either start a new church or preach from my home. Better yet
I would get a program on a radio station and tell folks if they are billed to get out of that mess, and come to my church where we give as the
Lord leads.
Jess Alford,
I think your bill for your local church has been published since the completion of the Canon.
Your bill, like mine, is: Take up the cross, die to yourself, follow Jesus and give sacrificially to the work of God through your local church.
Now Jess Alford, if you start getting bills from your local church, make sure to check the amount they request. It may be far less than it is supposed to be and I know you are a man who would never crawfish on a debt.
cb scott,
I give up on you. LOL.
Jess Alford,
Seriously, I do hope the winter weather there in the mountains is not giving you great distress with your lung condition.
I remember my winters there well and some of them were very harsh.
I do continue to pray for your better health as you continue in your ministry to the noble people of the highlands.
It’s the principle of the matter.
Christians are NOT calculated givers.
A young man at work, just today, was very proud that he has tithed for the first time. I told him that he might as well become a Jew. I then explained why, and told him that I really wasn’t all that sorry to have burst his bubble.
In the tithing debate I am used to hearing the charge that those who don’t preach or believe in tithing do so because they themselves don’t, or don’t want to, give 10%. I was intrigued by the new idea that folks may do so because they are Calvinists!
Frank, in a early reply near the top, stated that “we owe God 100%.” I would guess that all of us agree with that on an intellectual level. But what does that look like? Very few donate 100% of their income to their church and/or Christian causes. Ultimately it means that God owns everything that we have — the money we earn, the food we eat, the house we live in, the car we drive, the clothes we wear, and on and on. We are stewards of all the gifts God gives us, all that God owns with which we are entrusted. In the grand scheme of things even those who are generous are probably more guilty in the sight of God concerning how they use whatever percentage they keep than concerning how much they donate to the work of the church and charitable causes.
Some argue that tithing existed before the law and that it was never negated in the New Testament. If it is part of the law, then it was negated whether is was particularly mentioned or not, as are hundreds of other elements of it — such as levirate marriage or not mating different kinds of animals. But what if tithing pre-existed the law? Practices that exist before the law do not magically transcend the Old Testament into the New Testament. A number of practices existed before the law that were codified in the law, and yet are not practiced by churches today — e.g. sabbath, clean/unclean animals, sacrifices, circumcision, levirate marriage and slavery — some of which were specifically abrogated and some that were not specifically mentioned.
This is a very revealing comment thread.
It is little wonder that so many churches are now finishing their fiscal year in the red.
Anyone on this thread who does not give more than 10% of his or her yearly income to their local church whether you believe in tithing or not should not even post a comment in this thread. You are simply greedy and you know it.
Stop being greedy. Give sacrificially to your local church. Give even when it hard to give. Give when you can’t. Just give. Don’t gripe about it. Don’t split hairs about OT and NT principles on giving. Just give.
Oh yeah and another thing; If God directly blesses you, give and give more. If God does not bless you and you live in poverty, give and give more.
cb scott,
If you think the comment above reflects the attitude of Christ, then I believe you’re mistaken. My hope is that you’re trolling the board, but I have enough experience with similar attitudes to realize that you’re probably not.
As you posted below, the posts here are revealing and you’re not doing any favors to your cause.
JP,
Well then, help me out here.
Tell me how I should say that if you are an American believer and you are not giving sacrificially you are a greedy, dwarfed-faith, miserly wretch and that you need to start giving sacrificially in good times and bad and stop being consumed with the pursuit of pleasure, since a life without self-denial soon becomes out of control in every area of one’s life?
Should I state it like Malachi did in chapter 3 of his prophesy or like James did in chapter 5 of his epistle? Or do you have a better way?
JP, you can believe any of us when we tell you, “CB Scott does NOT troll the board. He says what he means and means what he says.”
Duckman Dale,
Thanks for the props.;-)
I was reading this morning the comments of John MacArthur on James 5. His words were pretty hard on self-indulgent Christians.
It is my opinion that we American Christians are simply too self-indulgent and develop arguments about biblical giving as a smoke screen to hide the sin of greed and self-worship.
There can be no doubt that the people of God were and are directed from both the OT and the NT to give sacrificially. We are to give sacrificially in good times and bad. The consequences of our obedience are in the hands of Holy God. If He blesses us with riches or if he allows us to live in poverty the principle of obedience is the same. We are to give sacrificially. And that is just all there is to it.
Even when he’s dead wrong
Frank L.,
I will “sacrificially” give two
knowing it will cost me greatly at the hands of Dave Miller for putting emoticons on a SBC Voices comment thread. 
Oh, sorry. That was three. He will really be mad now.
cb scott,
On finishing the fiscal year in the red, We Republicans say it’s not
the amount coming in, it’s a spending problem. cb you can’t have it both ways. I’ve learned in business and churches are no different,
the more that comes in the more they spend.
In these trying times, folks are lucky to put food on their table. We
Pastors would do well to understand this. We should give, for the up keep of the church and pay the pastor. We are to send out missionaries and try to help them. Please remember God is not broke.
Jess Alford,
You may not believe this, but I have never served as pastor of a church (large or small) that did not end a fiscal year in the black.
cb scott,
That makes two of us.
And remember…”God loves a cheerful giver”
(there…we are exposed, again)
You may not be too very cheerful, but give anyway.
Oh yeah, lest I forget, as far as this exposure thing you have mentioned a couple of times goes; You handle that however you please, but hopefully you will be dressed in a decent manner when you give your money to the work of the Kingdom’s enterprise through your local church next Sunday morning.
We have way too much exposure going on in the local church today.
We have a lot of overly exposed people holding on to very unexposed wallets and purses. No wonder churches can’t finance ministry and missions or lift holy hands unto the Lord. . . . too many naked saints sitting on their wallets. What a mess! What a mess, indeed!!
Yep, this is a very revealing comment thread.
Thank you ,Mark.
I am so glad we finally agree on something. We so rarely do. Yep.
Think what you will.
I will, as do you.
One thing very evident here.
If actual giving for the advancement of the Kingdom became as liberal as the comments on giving for the advancement of the Kingdom…the 21st century would quickly become the new Century of Missions.
Yep. So let’s all give liberally when it is easy and when it is not. Let’s give liberally and let those who do not be the ones who argue about OT principles of giving as opposed to NT principles of giving.
Let’s agree that we should give liberally and sacrificially and be good stewards of of all God places in our care no matter how great or how small.
Dave Miller,
If you go to youtube, Bill the church hopper, and click on the first one,
you will see why I thought of cb scott today.
Ridge-Runner
A couple of Sunday nights ago, we were studying the ending chapters of Exodus. When the Tabernacle was being built the people kept bringing their offerings of material goods. It wasn’t a tithe, but an offering. The people brought so much that the word went out to stop giving. When’s the last time that happened at your church?
I will say it again: I tithe. I will continue to tithe because it is my own personal conviction, based in my understanding of the Bible’s teachings, that the Christian is to give regularly. I also believe that the principle of 10% is a good place to start, since there is some biblical precedence for it, but I give more as I am able to do so. I encourage others to do the same. My giving is a loving response of worship to God Who gave His only Son for me. I don’t believe that 10% is too much to expect from myself or from fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ Who gave His life for each of us. I don’t demand it of anyone. Each believer has to determine his or her own convictions. When asked for my counsel or how I see it, I will encourage tithing.
You can say I’m living by Law all you want. It won’t change my mind or my practice. Don’t expect much sympathy from me when your church is in financial distress because you’ve given people a pass on proper biblical stewardship.
Duckman Dale,
How could any follower of Christ do less or state the principle better than you have done so here?
Looks like you and I are in the minority, SEC CB. So be it.
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