When I first heard of the mosque being built at Ground Zero in New York City, I questioned the wisdom of choosing that site. It wasn’t till conversations got heated, reheated, and burned to a crisp that I began to truly make up my mind about it all. I fluctuated between sympathies to one side, and “how dare they” to the other.
Some say it’s a matter of sensitivity to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 that the Muslim Mosque should choose another site. I empathize, I truly do. I have difficulty in sharing what I believe is more important. As a Christian, I think, it is because of the sensitivity to the entire subject matter–Islam versus ”whatever”–that I cannot remain silent. To me, it is not about compassion for those who lost loved ones, nor is it the freedom of religion to build a mosque near Ground-Zero in New York City.
This is about Jesus. It is about opening doors, building foundations to share the Gospel. Muslims do not know what (or Who) we know. They don’t know Jesus. Muslims who practice their faith trust in their own goodness to get them to heaven. We trust in the righteousness of Christ. When we show them we do not want them around, we cannot show them Jesus. When we condemn them for what they think and believe, we cannot begin to reach them. Can we?
The mad-men who flew jetliners into the Twin Towers on 9-ll, are no more examples of rational worshiping moderate Muslims, than Timothy McVeigh is an example of rational, worshiping born-again evangelical Christians. To say that American Muslims who practice the Islamic faith cannot build a mosque two blocks from Ground-Zero would be the same as saying, to them, that American Christians who practice their faith in Christ could not build a church near the Oklahoma City site that Timothy McVeigh bombed because McVeigh claimed to be a Christian.
Our argument might be, ”That’s ludicrous! Just because Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a Christian doesn’t mean he practiced Christianity. Christians do not condone what he did in Oklahoma City. We want to build our church there to act as a open-door to show love and life–not hate and violence.”
Is our argument any stronger than the Muslims who want to build a Mosque in New York? Is it any weaker?
I’m more concerned about what the words of Christians today are saying to Muslims as this controversy gains more and more attention, and the debates get louder and louder. Does continued anger and hatred for those who bombed the Twin Towers do anything to further the Gospel message to those who practice Islamic faith today?
We do not worship a prophet as they do. We worship God Incarnate–Jesus Christ. What message are we sending by lumping all Muslims into the same group as the 9-11 terrorists? Are we making it easier to reach them with the Truth of Christ by blaming all Muslims for what a few have done and do? Or are we making it harder?
Perhaps we should stop throwing stones at the Mosque, and begin reaching for building blocks. Let them build their mosque. Then, let someone (the SBC?) build a church and Cafe Court next door and invite them all in to worship and dinner afterwards. I’m just weighing in on a topic I find as opportune for the Great Commission. What are your thoughts? selahV
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Maybe there would be less opposition if the place wasn’t going to be named “Cordoba House”.
SelahV,
How is your argument any different from me saying, “I should be thrilled if they put a strip club right beside my house, that way I can share the gospel.”
Any difference?
No one is saying they are not welcome in America, we are merely wanting them to not build a mosque at one specific site. They really have to build a mosque at ground zero for us to share the gospel? We can’t do it if they build it somewhere else?
I sympathize with your reasoning, but your logic seems to fall short, IMHO.
I don’t lump in all Muslims with the 9-11 terrorists, but it was in fact their religion that led some men to murder thousands of people at the site they want to build a mosque. Not only is it extremely insensitive, but the fact that America is allowing it shows that we are a bunch of cowards hiding behind “freedom.”(im not calling you a coward- im talking about the officials who are approving this).
Matt Svoboda:
No one is saying that the people who lost loved ones at Ground-Zero “should be thrilled” about a mosque being built at a place they consider sacred ground. Surely not me; that would be totally illogical and horrendously insensitive. Nor do I propose that “you” should be “thrilled” that Muslims would build a mosque there. Are you saying that I am? Indeed that would be silly of me.
Yes, Matt–big difference between our arguments. Sorry if my logic falls short in your “humble” opinion.
I believe that I, as a Christian, need to get my feelings out of the way and allow those who seek to lawfully build their building, to build it. To disagree with them on religious grounds or grounds of sensibility would be no different than them conceding to the protests, then building their mosque twelve blocks away, then them turning around and protesting Christians from building a church next door to their mosque because Christianity is at odds with Islam faith. Or a VFW from being built next door to the mosque when the VFW is honoring veterans who died as they fought to bring freedom to the people of Iraq but killed innocent Muslims in the process.
That aside, my main concern is not the building of the mosque but the angry, hateful, rhetorical arguments that so many are being inflamed to shout at the very idea that any Muslim could be anything other than kin to the 9-11 terrorists who were radical extremists.
You ask: “They really have to build a mosque at ground zero for us to share the gospel? We can’t do it if they build it somewhere else?”
No, Matt. That would also be silly of me to say, now wouldn’t it?
I didn’t say that you, Matt, “lump in all Muslims with the 9-11 terrorists”. I’m saying that the outrage and magnification and bull-horn shouting about “any” Muslim building a mosque two blocks away from Ground-Zero, speaks volumes to the muslims in the world.
Of course we see it as insensitive. But must we? Must we take their efforts as unkind, or appallingly insensitive, because we see it to be insensitive? At this writing, I heard on Fox News where Daisy Khan is meeting with the 9-11 families and others involved with the building of the mosque. May we pray for a grace-filled understanding to prevail and permeate those meetings? Can we pray that eyes would be opened to a peacefilled conciliatory agreement? selahV
QUOTE my main concern is not the building of the mosque but the angry, hateful, rhetorical arguments END QUOTE
Agreed. It is always hard to separate your argument from your emotions — and I think everyone on both sides understands this is an emotional event like none most of us have experienced, at least since Pearl Harbor.
Unfortunately, you are incorrect when you say that some Muslims are not “kin” to 911 terrorists. I know it is hard to accept, but you CANNOT be a Muslim and even speak ill of the Koran — and especially not contrary to it. That is a “death penalty offense.” That’s why you don’t hear Muslims speak against the Koran’s war verses.
Muslims are in a different situation with the Koran than Christians are with the Bible. Debate about the Koran’s absolutely unchallengeable messge simply cannot happen within the Muslim context. I know from speaking with my moderate Muslim friend, they feel very divided — but she stays very silent about it.
This is a terrible dilemma for a whole race of people. We should speak strongly, but always season our speech with grace.
‘Religious’ tolerance?
The privileges of being classed as religion should be withdrawn from Islam.
If Hitler had claimed that ‘Mein Kampf’ was dictated by God, would we be forced to tolerate the Nazi Party as a religion? Islam is first and foremost a mind-destroying, totalitarian political ideology that spreads through the Body Politic like a virus.
Winston Churchill gave the correct diagnosis over a century ago, when he compared Islam to a contagious virus or meme – ‘as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog’ http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/islam-murder-meme-and-rabies-of.html
Consequently, Islam should be reclassified from ‘RELIGION’ to ‘PUBLIC MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM’ – a virulent contagious mental illness. It could then be contained by the methods used to prevent the spread of typhoid and other lethal epidemics: enforced exclusion and quarantine of carriers, eradication of foci of infection, immunization of the susceptible population etc.
Trencherbone, sadly there are far too many groups that are considered religions in the world. How many should we ban? Who decides which are banned? The Supreme Court? Congress? Perhaps we need another ammendment to the Constitution to define “religion”, just like we need to have other terms more succinctly defined–like marriage, citizen, etc.?
Interesting.
Well done SehahV. I agree. How big is ground zero? The proposed mosque is 2 blocks away. Would 3 blocks be ok? 5? I think the muslims behind the mosque are missing an opportunity to reach out to a suspicious city by voluntarily choosing another location, but they haven’t done it. I also think (many) Christians are missing an opportunity to voice their concerns in a reasonable fashion.
But red faced people waving fists and foaming at the mouth (either literally or figuratively) are doing no one any good. The idea that Christians want the state to use its power to abrogate a group’s lawful rights is troubling.
Let the world see that the United States lives up to its principles, even when it hurts.
Bill, thanks. I don’t know how close would be too close to Ground Zero. It is such a deep raw wound in the hearts of all New Yorkers. I can’t imagine how they deal with the cavern that is there as a result of the terrorists. But they are resilient and strong at heart. May God work even this controversy to the good for the glory of His precious Son–Jesus the Christ.
I don’t remember the details exactly, but I don’t remember Mcveigh acting in the name of Christianity unlike the other situation. (i could be forgetting something.) if so, that makes a fair amount of difference between the two situations.
We should love all, and getting red-faced is always a poor decision, and it is a “free country” so they can do what they want. To say there isn’t an element of intentional provocation by the developers though would be naive. We should recognize it for what it is, but still respond in love, knowing that many other Muslims are watching to see if we really are followers of Jesus or not.
Josh, the difference between the two incidents could have tons of flaws and inconsistencies, as we see them, but still remain the same in the eyes of Muslims–just as in our eyes the building of a Mosque two blocks from Ground Zero is insensitive, without compassion for the lost innocents and hurtful to the victims’ families and spitting in the face of all Americans. Communication is a very very long bridge to understanding.
I haven’t heard any Muslims advancing the Mcveigh argument. I just think if Mcveigh’s actions were done in the name of anti-government militia activism, then the appropriate metaphor would be building a militia headquarters across the street in OKC. I get the general sentiment but I’m a fact-checker by nature.
but I think more than anything we as Christians should respond in love as Christians and apply the law to others as we would to ourselves, which I believe is the point of your post.
Josh, how many have you talked to? (Just kidding) I had this on my mind, like I said in my post, and had the opportunity to ask someone whom I thought would understand Muslims far better than I, so we talked and like I said in the post, “to them” our argument would be like the McVeigh incident. If that is too far-fetched a comparison for some to entertain, then that’s okay by me. My most important point in weighing in on this subject was because I was seeing and hearing professing Christians who may be a bit too vitriolic with their outrage. And thereby, hurt opportunites for us to share Jesus. that’s all.
Thanks for responding. selahV
Well said, SehahV and Bill Mac. And “Trencherbone,” when you say, “If Hitler had claimed that ‘Mein Kampf’ was dictated by God, would we be forced to tolerate the Nazi Party as a religion?” please remember that if wishes were horses, all beggars would ride. Your characterization of Islam aside, illustrations loose their power if inaccurate or if you have to add to them to make your connection.
John
John, thanks. Didn’t expect this to be a slam-dunk and kudos to me kind of post. I’ve been mulling this around in my mind for several days now. I’ve jumped from bandwagon to bandwagon. Then I began to seek what the Lord would have me think and say in the matter. So…here we are. At odds as usual.
This is a stout discussion at http://www.baptistlife.com/forums faith and practice.
Lot of it was kicked off by Howell Scott’s blog, Scott who sometimes posts on this board, a CR pastor from New Mexico.
Al Mohler himself takes issue with Trencherbone and Newt Gingrich. It appears Mohler does not hold the Muslim faith in as low regard as Newt and Jerry Vines and Frank Graham.
Mohler and Frank make the Time Cover Story discussion response team this week.
I would hope that Trencherbone; if not him maybe Bill Mac will use this opportunity, Bill Mac and Louis, for close study of Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil. They want agree with all of it, but lot there for them to chew on, especially his chapter on Absolutists. And may Howell Scott will have the graciousness of spirit to show Robert Parham’s film in his church.
In all the discussion I do think there is a fair analogy. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are to the Muslim Faith what the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity; the Klan 4 million strong in America in 1920′s; and many of our grandfathers and other family not many generations back were members.
So good many of you are gonna trade epithets and condemnations here on this board. I hope some of you will broaden your perspective a little.
And do compare it to the link I have in the Setzer thread. In some ways it is fitting the discussion takes off here on the 30th Anniversary of SBC Prez Bailey Smith saying God doesn’t Hear the Prayer of a Jew.
SleahV:
I do hope you will get a copy of http://www.differentbookscommonword.com and begin the dialogue on this matter with your fellow Baptists.
It would be great example of your goodwill toward folks of the Muslim faith if you could have dialogue on this matter with fellow Baptists, including Denzel Washington, the son of a Baptist minister; Denzel has endorsed Parham’s effort.
I commend you for a fine blog. Much better than Ike Reighard’s former church member at New Hope in Fayetteville, Ga, Newt Gingrich.
thanks for the commendation. Think this writing is about as far as the Lord has led thus far in my forging better relations between Christians and Muslims. As you can see, I have a hard enough time communicating without irritating fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do plan to support Elam, though. It is a group who are taking the gospel to Iran and leading people to Jesus one by one. Just learned about it yesterday. selahV
Stephen: You’re killing me, you really are. Please stop telling us what everyone else thinks, or has written and tell us what you think. I don’t want the mosque to be built. I don’t have any regard for Islam. My regard is for the Constitution and my regard is for people to have the freedom to worship as they choose, within the constraints of the law. Even within a religion I believe to be false. My regard and concern is for Christians choosing the wrong fight and drawing lines in the sand in the wrong places.
What do YOU think? And why?
There are not many places where I disagree with Charles Kimball on these matters. That is not a dodge. He has examined all the underlying issues very well and 2002 at that.
I think the thinking of Bailey Smith and Criswell and Islamic fundamentalists are a matter of degree; all an aberration of the best of their faith.
Like SelahV I have some reservations about the timing of this Mosque, but likely the more outrageous aspect of this whole matter is how it was driven by a right wing blogger and then picked up most recently by Newt Gingrich.
I believe George W. Bush is a Christian. I am concerned about how Karl Rove shaped his conversion story for political reasons. I am more concerned about how Richard Land played the religion card; went to be politically with Karl Rove as described in Garry Wills in the Age of Rove, a vulgarization of the best of the Baptist Tradition, than I am concerned about progressive Muslims building a House of Worship.
I sat in a room with Martin Accad and the former president of Samford, Tom Corts about 5 years ago in Bham.
I think you have a lot to learn from both of these fine Baptists on the matter.
If you want to read Kimball, I would love to talk to your further about it. I cannot do the remedial reading for you.
At same time I do appreciate the civility with which you engage me here, as compared to the lack thereof of some other folks.
Charles Kimball and Bill Mac:
I think Bill Mac is right in his concern for the ill timing and impudence of folks who claim the name of Christ needlessly drawing line in the Sand and otherwise being a distraction.
At same time I think there is much for him to learn from Kimball
Here is a good introduction:
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9811&article=981110
A personal note as I know CB Scott among others place a lot on testimony.
I was in the Sanctuary of FBC Greenville SC in November of 2002 when Charles Kimball lectured there about his new book. He and current pastor Jeff Rogers were colleagues on the Furman religion faculty in the mid 80′s through good bit of the 90′s; a highwater mark for the Furman Religion Department.
Also in the room that night was the former Governor of SC, Dick Riley who became President Clinton’s SEc. Ed; Riley a great man.
And Baxter Wynn was there; brother of former chair of the SC GOP and Nephew of Ga. Gov Lester Maddox.
It was a grand evening, full of much hope for Baptist/Muslim relations.
Newt Gingrich isn’t helping much now. I wish you coulda been there that evening Bill Mac so we wouldn’t have to be doing all this remedial work now, though I do commend SelahV for much of his good thought here.
And Bill Mac,CB Scott andall; I must say I am concerned about this 30th Anniversary.
On behalf of the SBC will Al Mohler and Richard Land apologize for this if Bailey Can’t bring himself to?
It’s that old matter of degree I was talking about
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16564
It is interesting how our freedoms are protected.
Our government was designed in such a way that the government-guaranteed freedoms of each individual American, or of a minority group are protected from the ‘rule of the masses’.
So, from century to century, and decade to decade, there will arise situations that highlight this protection: times when the rights of a few are blatantly unpopular with the majority of Americans.
One example of the confrontation of the popular will of the majority clashing with the rights of a minority is the one where I failed the test:
I signed a petition to make it illegal for Westboro Baptist Church to protest within sight of the funeral of a combat soldier. My compassion for the family of that dead soldier over-rode my reasoning about how our system works:
in order to guard guaranteed freedom of speech, I must protect the freedom of those whose speech offends me to the heart. I must keep that freedom for the sake of that soldier who died protecting freedom of speech in our country . . . a freedom even for those Westboro folk.
Ours is a strange country: we really do believe in freedom here.
Our finest Americans: the young men and women in the military prove that everyday, by laying their lives on the line to defend that freedom. They are the best of WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.
The building of the mosque will be a witness to the world, in its own way: that the terrorists did not destroy WHO WE WERE AS A NATION on nine-eleven.
As far as Islamic terrorists AND American terrorists:
they will always work to destroy WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.
the twin towers and the Murrah Building fell, but WE have to remember who we are, for the sake of those who lost their lives, so that the terrorists don’t ever win.
I hope we can pass the test this time and allow the Mosque to be built.
QUOTE I hope we can pass the test this time and allow the Mosque to be built END QUOTE
Why is it un-American to oppose the mosque being built? Or, do you only apply free speech rights to minorities?
I personally do not see anything wrong with vociferously setting forth one’s opinion. That to me is “free speech.”
I feel the same thing about “abortion.” Just because it is legal, I don’t turn a blind eye and keeping working until the legal issue is line with the moral issue.
In a free country, even the majority should be free to express opinions.
Jerry, I agree. I would think if it wasn’t being called Cordoba House then it would take the sting out of the situation for “some” people…but certainly not all. selahV
I wonder of the Christian Community has tried to build a worship center at Ground Zero. A Christian-themed memorial to the victims.
I guess if we haven’t, then we may not have much to gripe about.
Bob, I’ve wondered the same thing. More so since this controversy has taken on a life of its own. selahV
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/nyregion/19church.html
SelahV,
I believe the comparison you draw needs more distinctions. If I had the time, I could probably list an extensive set of significant differences between the Mcveigh incident and 9-11, many of which would be rooted in the religious-cultural-sociological context of radical Islam, proportionalities pertaining to Christian terrorists and Muslim terrorists, hermeneutical consensuses in the Middle East Qu’ran interpretation vs. hermeneutical consensuses in contemporary Christian thought, etc.
If bitterness, unforgiveness, or excessive fear and paranoia is at the heart of Christians who decry this building project at the 9-11 site, then this is wrong. If, on the other hand, concern for the dignity of victims, a desire to set an example of social appropriateness, concerns for what “message” this might send to radical Islamists, etc., are the concerns of Christians, then disagreement between Christians on this issue seems more political than theological.
Bradley
Bradley, I agree with your last paragraph and feel this is what is being lost in the flaming of the rhetorical fires that are burning on talk-shows and editorials. Unfortunate comparisons are being made, and some not so hemeneutically convincing, I am sure.
I happened to have the opportunity to ask the opinion of Afshin Ziafat yesterday at church, and he shared the Timothy McVeigh comparison with me. I would guess, since he is a converted Iranian Muslim who fluently speaks Farsi, is an evangelist who shares his testimony around the world–would have a bit more insight into the comparison than I. And given the incredible manifestation of the Spirit of God in his messages yesterday, I’d say he has a handle on the various distinctions you might offer had you more time. It’s a certainty that I would be very limited in discussing them with you. But I’d sure give it a go. selahV
Personally, I don’t think the fact that a person speaks “Farsi” means that they have any special insight to Islam. They may, but I don’t think there is anything that necessitate such a connection.
There is nothing in the Christian faith (even allowing that McVeigh was a Christian which I sincerely doubt) that mandates conversion with the threat of death if necessary. That is a part of the Koran — the sole source for Muslim faith and practice. There are over 109 “war verses” in the Koran. The Koran is a “book of war.” War is an proselytizing tool of the Muslim faith.
You don’t have to speak “Farsi” to read and understand the Koran.
Any comparison between McVeigh and 911 is pure fiction.
“Any comparison between McVeigh and 911 is pure fiction.”
I can think of one comparison:
TERRORISM
SSBN, personally, I didn’t mean to imply it gave anything more special to understanding the Koran, than I suppose fluently speaking and reading Greek and Hebrew would be to understanding the Bible. That’s about where I was coming from.
Afshin Ziafat is a remarkable man of God who has led different siblings to Christ who have followed the Koran as their guidebook. His testimony is powerful–but only by the way the Spirit is using him to reach his countrymen and women in Iran to know what the truth of Jesus Christ being God and whom the Muslim world sees and respects as a prophet. I only added the part of him fluently speaking Farsi to help readers understand he was not just a fly-by-night person who did not understand the teachings of the 5 pillars of Islam. Sorry it did nothing to help you grasp what I was trying to say to Bradley who wants to discuss hermeneutics and distinctions I would dare say I could not begin to discuss. Hope this helps you SSBN. By the way, do you have a name? hariette petersen (a.k.a. selahV)
Kind of a stupid question so I’ll give a stupid answer: no I do not have a name.
Amazingly you managed to dance all around the issue that YOU raised. I don’t dispute anything you said about this being a wonderful Christian man reaching out to Muslims. One of my wife’s closest friends is a practicing Muslim, so I’m not fully unaware of Muslim people.
The fact is: you used this man to tie McVeigh and 911, which is a myth in any language, including Farsi. So, please don’t now act as if I didn’t “grasp” the meaning of your post (whatever the reason that prompted you to say it). Implying I’m not “smart enough” to grasp your posts does not change the fact that you seem to agree (by asserting an authority) there IS a connection between McVeigh and 911. Feel free to lay aside the ad hominem venom and simply state your case on the matter.
That might actually spark some conversation. I’m not making any personal judgments about you — just examining your posts.
SSBN, LOL. You’re right that was a rather stupid way for me to phrase that question. Sorry. Will you tell me your name, please?
I wasn’t trying to dance around anything. I was telling you what I said to Bradley and why. If you are offended, I am sorry I offended you. I was not “implying” anything about how “smart” you are. I don’t imply such stuff. It’s insulting.
Fact is: as you put it that it was my “post” that you were refering to. I wrote “to them” as in how the Muslims would view the protests of Christians and others to the building of a mosque at Ground Zero. “To them” is in my post. Perhaps you overlooked it. And I based this upon the conversation I had with a converted Muslim whom I felt might have a much better understanding of Muslims than I. Plain and simple.
I’m not making any personal judgments of you, either, just trying to reply to your comments. Grace be unto you and abound, selahV
Criswell’s speech to the SC legislature in 56 could be characterized as an act of Terror.
His Skunk Sermon in San Antonion was a declaration of War on Professors in Seminaries with whom he disagreed.
All a matter of degree.
See my link to Kimball in Comment 18; and begin thinking about Absolutists.
Absolutists are why your debate with the Koran doesn’t stack up as long as you are an apologist for the SBC.
Inerrancy as implemented in the SBC is an Absolutist Tool, Instrument.
That is why your arguments don’t stack up.
You cannot engage Kimball and make a prevailing argument.
Your SBC is woeful in these matters. Look at the Ministry of Doug Hudgins at FBC Jackson Mississippi in the 60′s.
Your “dissenting church” didn’t dissent much when it mattered and now you whitewash it all through rose colorred glasses; SSBN.
SelahV and Roger Williams and Parham’s Documentary are the better light, the New Testament Baptist witness for peace in a Plural Society; the Truett model of Separation of Church and State that you too artfully and cavalierly dismiss SSBN, and makes your Baptist credentials somewhat suspect in this matter.
As Stephen Fox has brought my name into this discussion, I will weigh in here. I have written several posts on my blog regarding the Ground Zero mosque and I have also tried to engage the folks at BaptistLife forums regarding this issue. This is not an issue of religious liberty or Baptist principles. This is first and foremost a political issue that has gotten national traction, thanks in large part to President Obama’s clumsy remarks and subsequent clarifications regarding the mosque.
First, from a legal and constitutional viewpoint, I believe that this Muslim group has every right to build the mosque on their property at the proposed location. I believe it would be a violation of their rights if the government were to use legal process (either through zoning or landmark status) to prevent the building of the mosque near Ground Zero. Both Richard Land and, to a greater extent, Newt Gingrich, have made comments in oppostion to the mosque that could be considered as violating conservative principles. Quite frankly, we should not condition our rights to religious freedom in this country based upon what a Middle East dictatorship like Saudi Arabia does with allowing churches and synagogues to be built in theirs (Gingrich’s argument).
Secondly, just because someone has a First Amendment right to say or do something (in this case build a religious facility) does not mean that any of us have to support, endorse, or condone the speech or activity. I have tried on BaptistLife to get anyone to admit if there is First Amendment speech or activity (i.e., pornography or the vile hate speech of Westboro “Baptist Church” for example) that was that was protected, but that they would personally not support, endorse, or condone. The response: crickets.
If the U.S. Supreme Court upholds Westboro’s “right” to protest at military funerals, does anyone likewise believe that Mayor Bloomberg, President Obama, or the other elites would for a New York minute support or endorse that right? If the proposed project was an SBC mega-church, do you think it would receive the same amount of support? Most people know the answers to those questions. I may recognize that Muslims have the right to build near Ground Zero, but the First Amendment does not require me to like it. God bless,
Howell, “I may recognize that Muslims have the right to build near Ground Zero, but the First Ammendment does not require me to like it.” I agree. Thanks for weighing in. Sadly, more and more of the interpretations of our Constitution are being so twisted that we will probably have to accept many things we do not like in order to hold on to the rights we have as citizens practicing Christianity. Thank God for the foresight of our Founders. selahV
This thread has zipped right along so I hope I have not missed the point I’m about to address. If someone has already brought it up, then I apologize for the repeat.
We as Americans should be mindful that the building of this mosque is in line with the teachings of Islam and the practice throughout the centuries to build mosques anywhere Muslims had military victories.
To believe this is just a “worship center” that just happens to be slated for construction at the nearest possible site to Ground Zero, is very foolish and naive. It is a statement by Islamic leaders who are anything but “moderate.”
As an American, I am troubled by the wholesale ignorance of people in regard to the Muslim faith. I have read, and do read the Koran and other works of Muslim clerics accessible in English. This is a statement by the Muslim world to the Muslim world and all the political correctness in the world does not change the facts.
Now, in regard to a “Christian” response. We should do everything in our power to give a strong witness to the Muslim community (the moderate Muslim community) that this mosque is a ploy consistent with the Muslim teaching of the Koran to convert infidels — even with the threat of death if necessary.
There is nothing wrong with Christians standing with those who are still in mourning. I also do not see anything in Scripture that prevents Christians from presenting a strong apologetic against the Muslim faith –as we should all false cults and religions.
As far as the “legal” issues, that is a different matter altogether. But, might (what is legal) does not make right (what is morally acceptable).
The History of the SBC, that SSBN supports, especially the Branch that produced Paul Pressler and Jesse Helms is not pretty.
I see where he has posted the disclaimer that the true branch of Christendom is superior to Muslim and that gives him an out with the darker side of the SBC that put the fundamentalist in power.
As pure as he makes it all seem, I don’t think he can wade through Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil and make the case for the SBC he otherwise wants to flourish in. Ronnie Floyd and Judge Pressler, I contend, will not allow an honest look at it.
The folks who are connected to the different books common word initiative have heard all the faux and small minded arguments SSBN is throwing up here, and found them wanting.
Any truth seekers on this board ought to explore them; find a way to hear what Martin Accad thinks about the matter.
The review of When Religion Becomes Evil link I have posted is a good introduction.
SSBN may be able to outwit me in the discussion here on this board, but his junk don’t fly, his Dawg won’t hunt.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
Interesting take from a British Comedian
SSBN, I have not read the Koran. Would guess that many readers here have not either. I could be wrong.
You make a very interesting point with the reason Muslims might want to build a mosque where they’ve had victory. But there was no victory for the extremists here. They gained no land. They had no conquest. They do not possess the land; they have to purchase the coat factory in order to build. Is there a mosque going up in the fields of Pennsylvania? At the Pentagon? It would make more sense, to me, if that were so. Is there a new mosque going up at Ft. Hood, Texas? selahV
Maybe New York first, a field in Pennsylvania later, huh SelahV?
CB… I shudder. Come, Lord Jesus, Come. selahV
there is an interesting variety of comments on this topic here, also, and some mirror the views of many of the commentators on Selah’s post:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/comments/allreviews.html?id=89133
If anyone cares to do their history, you’ll find that Christianity has been the base excuse for many, as in an overwhelming majority, genocides, atrocities, and tragedies.
Many Confederate leaders fought to protect “their God-given right to slavery” and even had passages straight from the bible to defend their position. Heck, look at our own convention’s history.
Explorers claimed that God gave them the right to claim the lands of many indigenous people groups and even wholesale slaughtered groups which refused to convert to Christianity.
Crusades much?
How about the groups such as the KKK which steep much of their own history in bastardized interpretations of the bible?
We have a very narrow world view as to how much our religious beliefs have been the basis for people excusing themselves while killing or destroying others. When you take the long view, you find that Christianity has been responsible for many, many deaths alongside Islam being the reason for many other deaths.
If people want to build that mosque, let them. We ought to help the church down the street rebuild too.
Islamic radicals have killed people. Christian radicals have killed people. They just did it hundreds of years ago.
“Christian radicals have killed people. They just did it hundreds of years ago.”
We may not have too long to wait for a ‘revival’ of this, BILL.
‘Christian’ militia are on the upswing in this country.
Example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/us/30militia.html
Christiane, no Christian radicals ever killed people for the purpose of converting them to the faith — that’s what the Koran teaches, as thorny an issue as that might be for them. And, for my Muslim friends who are moderate, Arab-born people, the war verses (usually counted as about 109) are a problem.
If you are talking about the Inquisition or the Crusades, both of these were aberrations of the Christian faith that were NOT supported by the “dissenting church” (which I consider the forebears of the True Church).
If you want to indict the “Catholic” church for all kinds of human rights abuses in the Middle Ages (if that’s the period of which you speak), I will agree with you.
Somehow, I don’t think that was the intent of your post.
I don’t think that the terrorists killed those people in the towers ‘to convert them’.
They were terrorists. NOT people of faith.
‘Christian’ militia terrorists are not Christians.
TERRORISM is the enemy.
It corrupts and hijacks where it is allowed to corrupt and hijack. Christian people of faith are NOT immune,
but they cannot serve two masters, and in order to embrace the one, they must first utterly abandon the Other.
Christiane, they did not kill them to convert them, they killed them to “subject” them. Obviously, you have not read the Koran.
I’ll correct you, “Terrorists are our enemy.” We can never win a war on “terrorism” (Bush’s folly). We can only fight terrorists.
And keep in mind: all Muslims are not 911 terrorists, but all 911 terrorists were Muslim. The truth is sometimes painful to admit (especially in our screwed-up, politically correct world) but it is the ONLY way we will ever have any hope of goodness overcome evil. We must start with the truth.
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.
The early, violent incarnation of the KKK quoted scripture in their meetings and their rampages.
Confederate and Southern Leaders quoted scripture to defend slavery.
Bill, how do you know McVeigh was a Christian? What in his life gives any indication of this fact you assert?
Then, in what way was McVeigh following anything that the Christian church teaches from the Bible when he insanely murdered innocent people.
Perhaps, in your mind he was a Christian. I must admit I do not possess the power to know such a fact.
Just as a matter of contrast, I do not know if Mother Teresa was a Christian. However, I do know that she lived and acted in a way that suggests she was — even though I may argue with her some day on points of doctrine.
Bill, I don’t mean to offend you, but I don’t think you can credibly make a connection between McVeigh and 911 on the basis of religion.
You have a tiny problem, Christiane. The Quran teaches this ‘terrorism’ toward infidels. Christians have no biblical excuse for their terrorism in history from the New Covenant scriptures.
The good news is that most Muslims do not know the Quran.
They were devout Muslims. Islam is a nationalistic religion.
The Christ of the gospel was not the christ of the Crusades.
And in all due respect I would contend the Christ of the Gospel is not the Christ of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Covention.
What you have with fundamentalism in the SBC and fundamentalism in the Moslem community is a matter of Degree and I am not alone in asserting as much.
Read Charles Kimball–I have anintroductory link about comment 16–Read Kimball on Absolutes, which is what Inerrancy boils down to.
Pressler’s definition of Cooperation is I’ll operate and you Cope=Ayatollah Pressler SBC
QUOTE If anyone cares to do their history, you’ll find that Christianity has been the base excuse for many, as in an overwhelming majority, genocides, atrocities, and tragedies. END QUOTE
Bill, first let me say I appreciate your passion on this issue. I don’t mean to make any personal attack against you as a person or a brother in Christ.
However, I have studied history, and your history is wrong. First, the Crusades were NOT sanctioned by the True Church (confessing church, dissenting church) and not even fully supported by all the bishops at the time.
Also, just as matter of history: the Crusades were prompted by Muslim aggression.
Second, your post is an apologetic for the Muslim faith implying they are at least as peace-loving as Christians, and no more warring than the same. Two facts of history: one, I’ve stated before–the Koran justifies violence if necessary to subject (meaning of Islam) infidels to the “faith.” There is nothing like this in the Bible. Another fact that mitgates against your apologetic of Islam is simple mathematics. The number of lives taken in the advance of Islam compared to those lost in the Crusades (and I’m not justifying either group) shows without question that Islam wins that number game.
Again, I’m not condoning violence by any group and I’m not attacking you personally. But, your raised the issue of “history,” and I suspect that you are not a professional historian (I’m not slamming you for this). My Master’s degree is in research and I must confess that before I did the research, I was ignornant about the Crusades also.
In closing, I would say that I don’t equate the Catholic church with the True Church, so I don’t accept any responsibility as a believer for the non-Christian acts perpetrated by the Catholic Church. For me, Catholic does NOT equal Christian, even though some true believers might be Catholics.
PS–For the record, I also do not believe that the SBC equals Christianity.
Let’s hope not.
So all those people using Christianity as their basis for their actions over in the holy land mean nothing?
Whether or not the “True Church” sanctioned the Crusades or not, the fact is that hundred and thousands of people claimed God was on their side as they cut a swathe through the holy land.
Military History is my minor from college. It’s nice reading diaries of Generals who felt God was on their side…
…of both sides of the Civil War.
The fact remains that people claim Christianity when they commit unspeakable acts onto another person or people group.
I still point to the KKK and other supremacist groups which claim God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in their actions and their group’s history, founding, and mission. One group which I researched claim their mission is to purify the world for the true race which God has ordained (and it ain’t the Jews).
Bill, you keep missing the point of the major difference between Muslim acts of aggression and the Crusades. Muslim acts of aggression are taught and encouraged by their holy book. The Crusades were in no way encouraged by God’s Holy Book, the Bible.
You keep comparing apples and oranges.
When a Muslim “claims” to be killing in the Name of Allah, they base it upon the common reading of the Koran. When a KKK member claims to kill in the name of Christ, that person has NO BASIS to make such a claim and is showing himself or herself to NOT be acting in the name of Christ.
There is a big difference. Read the Koran from front to back. Don’t take my word for it, take Mohammed’s.
I’m comparing dead people to dead people. Pretty simple. I’ve not even suggested that the bible supports it or not, I’m saying that these people/groups are using Christianity and/or scripture/passages to support their actions.
Whether or not you think it’s in there or not, these groups are claiming scripture to justify their actions. In the late 1800′s, that was killing/terrorizing blacks in the South while claiming that they were “doing the Lord’s work” in their land.
By the way, isn’t one of the reason the SBC was even formed was because slaver owners also wanted to be missionaries?
Well, Bill, I guess I’ll just drop the issue with you. You don’t care what the facts are. All you care about is dragging up issues in the long gone South (of which neither I nor my forebears were a part of) and slinging mud.
I prefer a conversation to a campaign, good-bye.
You do realize that these supremacist groups are very much alive and well today, now. Most are either deep south or in the midwest. There are also just as many militant black supremacist groups active in the US today as well.
You are arguing that the bible doesn’t condone violence against another group. You’re right, I thought I made that concession clear.
I’m stating that many of these groups active today and groups from long ago with their actions, claim Christianity and scripture to justify their stances and their actions. It’s not hard to prove that I’m right here.
I’m arguing the person and group with their actions. You’re arguing that the source material doesn’t actually support their claims. I’m right AND you’re right.
You and I are arguing two different things here. I’m right where I’m making my point, you’re right where you’re making your point. We’re talking right past each other and it’s probably best you and I walk away from it.
Bill,
The largest concentration of Klansmen in the history of the US was in a northern state.
West Virginia wasn’t it?
You’re right, but they were formed and made their fame in the states of Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. You can throw in a few events in West Virginia, Kentucky, and Georgia, but when a person thinks about the KKK, it’s West Virginia and the south.
My inclusion of the midwest is because I’m referencing primary research of a professor that I’ve done work for here in Louisiana who has done all of his research on white supremacist groups and the largest concentrations of these types of groups are in the deep south and midwest as of 2008.
Indiana.
West Virginia is a Southern State? They still talk funny.
Illinois also has a large proportion of white supremacist groups in the country.
Illinois also boasts one of the largest black supremacist groups (they do exist) in the country as well.
REad Leviticus and then consider the ideology of the man to whom Judge Pressler said on the Fireside Chat:
“And then we had a Resolutions committee that was conservative for the first time and that just infuriated the Liberals”
SSBN, you sound like a believer in the Body of Christ
and the Spirit-formed communion of all Christians within its great diversity, a bond formed strictly by one thing:
their centering completely in Christ the Lord.
Christiane, I am. I will heartily attest that I know many practicing Catholics that I feel (I cannot know) are true believers.
Saying that, I absolutely reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, especially after the late third and fourth centuries. To be quite honest I could never accept the elevation of Mary and all the additional doctrines the Catholic Church has added in regard to her alone — including the presently debated matter of Co-Redemptrix.
If you are a Catholic, and a believer, which it appears is how you describe yourself, then I would strongly suggest you find another faith community within which to express your love for Jesus Christ.
I don’t like to think of myself as an enemy of the Catholic church, but I am certainly not a fan. In regard to Catholic people — well, that’s a whole different ball of wax (not candle wax)
Thank you for your response. As far as I know, the concept co-redemptrix has never been accepted as ‘dogma’ by the Vatican, although it has been much discussed since the time of Irenaeus, in various ways. And yes, some Catholics DO tend to go over the top in their Marian devotions, but never to the point where Christ is replaced. The one thing we know for sure is this: there was never a moment when Mary did not point towards Our Lord, and even today among Catholics, we still hear her voice come down to us in Holy Scripture: ‘Do as He tells you’.
For me, the beauty of a Catholic or Anglican or Orthodox Marian devotion is that it is centered always completely on Our Lord.
She pointed to Him.
For us, she still points always to Him.
So very much, and with so much love.
There is an icon that shows a pregnant Mary embracing and comforting a weeping Eve. If you can picture that, then you may have some insight into the way we see her.
Christiane,
I can appreciate your respect for Mary. I’m not sure most Catholics (at least most I know and many of my friends growing up were Catholic) look at the faith the same way you do. But, Mary is only one extra-Biblical doctrine among many down through the years.
Personally, I’d never be comfortable with the man-centered (Pope) religion of Romanism. Then again, I’m against ALL organized religion.
I prefer the disorganized ways of the Baptists
PS — As a matter of artistic expression I can appreciate the beauty of the image of Mary and Eve.
Hi SSBN,
Thanks for responding. I can share with you a comment that I made on Paul Burleson’s post about ‘Who Is The Leader Of Your Church’, which might give insight into our perspective on ‘the servant of the servants of God’ which is title we give the Pope:
“For a long time I thought how could it be that a seminary president could fire a Hebrew professor who had a husband with severe medical problems.
I remember thinking that the ‘excuse’ given was a strange one: ‘because she is a woman’.
So she was ‘let go’ and great hardship followed her and her family for a while (now things are better, I am told).
I think what jarred me so thoroughly was that one man could raise the ‘doctrine’ of patriarchy totally above Christ’s Law of Love. That one man used his position as a leader to ignore Lord Christ’s Great Commandment. And he got away with it. At least in the temporal sense: he is still an icon for many who can discern nothing wrong in what he did.
So I look at the title of this post and it reminds me that people can idolize ‘authority’, even when that authority violates the principle that no harm may be done that good may come.
Leadership.
We can’t follow two masters . . .
Best to follow the leader that points always towards the Lord, and in His Name, obeys the laws of loving-kindness towards his fellowman.
The great Christian leaders will be, above all, the servants of Lord Christ. And a leader of these leaders will, at all times, be ‘a servant of the servants of God’. There is no other pattern within the Body of Christ than that. “
To Christiane’s Strong post I would accentuate with Three examples, Most likely the Greatest Christians of the Twentieth Century.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Oscar Romer
L’s,
You are always predictable.
I knew it would only be a matter of time before you would link Paige Patterson to Islamic terrorists. You are just pitiful in your hatred of conservative, biblically sound Christians aren’t you L’s?
CB,
Old son, haven’t you figgered it out yet? EVERYTHING is Paige Patterson’s fault. The Great Recession? Yep. 9-11? That was him. In fact, the Greek word translated “root” in I Timothy 6:10 is the word “paigeouspattersoni”.
At least that’s the word on the street in Enid, OK.
Joe,
I think you made a mistake. The Recession was Richard Land’s fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQdZgojOFI
Fitna by Geert Wilders. Worth watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXje9fJsBc&feature=related
What some Muslims are taught at a very young age
What some Southern Baptists were taught at a very young age
http://jsr.fsu.edu/Volume10/Freeman.pdf
Just 50 years ago.
And that preaching morphed Inerrancy which morphed into The Takeover which begat Matt and SSBN and Rove and Landand here we are today.
Thank God for the CR and anyone who was hurt in the CR can just, as the Eagles sang a few years ago, “Get Over It”.
Hey Joe, The Adults are trying to have a discussion here. Go back to your Room until it is over and see if you have learned anything new and maybe try the next one.
While in your room you may want to read the link comment 19 about Absolutists and hold up a mirror and see if you see yourself in there.
Hey Steven
Can a person go to heaven without professing faith in Jesus Christ and repenting from sin?
Hey Joe, asI’ve said before I think you are making it very difficult for people in your family and your church to go to Heaven. You may be more of a distraction than a Help.
I’m glad you apparently are not a drunk, pay your taxxes and most likely don’t commit adultery.
But there is alot more to the Gospel and being a Baptist than that.
I hope maybe your wife or one of your children will read a Great ChristianBaptist Scholar, be a subversive or sorts; Read Kimball on the Absolutists and say Daddy: Is this you???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOCcx5V9RI&feature=related
Geert Wilders Warning to America.
Hariette,
You’ve written a very thought provoking post.
Religious liberty is a tough concept that cuts both ways. If we are to have perfect freedom to practice our faith, it also means those we strongly disagree with have the freedom to practice theirs. As a conservative Baptist Christian, my prayer and belief is that our evangelism, and truth, will win in the marketplace of free ideas.
I’ve never liked it when atheist groups and others fight the building or expansion of a Baptist church and use every obscure law on the books against them. Even if the church wins, it has cost them in time, money and legal fees. But to be consistent, I would have to then say those of other faiths have the right to build as well.
I’ve heard there are already a number of mosques in New York, some already pretty close to ground zero. There is one close to where I live too. Let them build, but if it ever instigates terrorism, confiscate the property and sell it with the proceeds going to the fight against terrorism. Another way to look at this, building a mosque near ground zero may just hurt the public perception of Islam more than it helps it.
My Baptist association office is next door to the Latter Day Saints. One of the Baptist churches in our association is next door to a Catholic church. No problem in either case. Isn’t that a great testimony to religious freedom in America? One of our Baptist Distinctives has been religious liberty.
If the mosque is built, however, we should point out loud and long the number of mosques allowed to be built in America, as opposed to the number of churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim dominated countries. Anybody know where the First Baptist Church, Mecca, Saudi Arabia is located? Why can’t we build one there? It should also be pointed out that here Muslims are free to openly practice their religion and openly invite others to convert to their faith. Things not allowed us in Muslim dominated countries.
David R. Brumbelow
David, thanks for your usual wisdom in this volatile subject. You know I thought long and hard about whether or not to write it. Not my kind of writing by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree wholeheartedly that we should sieze their property should they use it to support terrorists in any way, just as we sieze property of those who deal in drugs. We are a nation of laws.
I understand and totally empathize with your feelings on Christian churches in Saudi Arabia, however the distinction, as much as I hate to say it is, they do not have our constitution. And if we are going to follow that train of thought–if we let you do this, then you should let us do that, then we’d be expected to adhere to their laws as in Sharia law. They cannot, as I understand it, practice their perversion of law without being held accountable to our laws. They are subject to our laws. We are not subject to theirs no matter how many mosques they build. That is, until they have voted in enough muslim or sympathetic legislators to amend our constitution to their ideologies and theologies. Right? selahV
I am in complete agreement with this post. Great thoughts in the midst of a lot of hyped up emotion. And, as comments go, Christiane makes more sense than anyone here (IMHO). Thanks for the voice of reason, Christiane!
Hello R.D.
Not sure how ‘reasonable’ I am. I ‘know’ what I believe to be the right and just thing to do, but my heart breaks for those family members of 9/11 victims who oppose the building of this mosque.
I just know that if we as American deny the freedom to build that mosque, somehow the terrorists would have won a victory after all.
We are Americans here. That is a blessing and a very heavy responsibility. We must do what is right and just.
So ‘giving in to our pain’ never was a choice for us.
We just can’t afford to take the low road on this one.
It seems plain to me that the muslims intending to build near ground zero are doing so with the intention of mocking us as a nation. This will be a training center for future terrorists.
They are at war with this country and we don’t see it. It is not a victory for us when we let our enemy in our midst. Instead, letting them do this is showing the world (or at least the muslim world) that Americans are weak and have no stomach for battle.
I encourage everyone to read Douglas Wilson‘s recent post on this subject. He made some very insightful remarks.
Stan: What is your solution then? It seems, by your remarks, that you don’t see the mosque as a problem so much as having Muslims in America.
Good point Bill Mac. I do hope you will get the Common Word Documentary and show it to your people and have a good discussion with Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil as a Resource Guide.
Muslims are at war with us. I hope we are ready for whatever is ahead.
As to my solution, I haven’t settled on anything as of yet. I keep vacillating between a few alternatives. Placating is not an option, however.
Stan, America as a nation has fallen so far adrift in principle, in its foundational beliefs. And much of what Wilson writes rings well the truth of our falling away–especially from the faith on which we were founded–Christian.
Douglas Wilson powerfully writes: “…the Muslims know what they are doing. What is that exactly? They are exposing the intellectual, theological, and ethical bankruptcy of secularism, and they are doing it on purpose.”
Wilson sums up his post with: “Someone really does need to tell secularist America that her gods are genuinely pathetic. And currently, the Muslims are doing this because the Christians won’t. And the Christians who won’t do this are not so much in need of a different kind of theology as they are in need of a different kind of spine.”
The “spine” we need to grow will come from the bold witnessing of Jesus Christ our Lord. Instead, we banter back and forth over who has the better comparisons with one another’s comparisons. May we each pray for God to give us someone to share Jesus with today and every day. We who are called by His name, need to humble ourselves, pray, seek God’s face, turn from our wicked ways and the idolization of wealth, comfort and self-satisfaction. We need to seek those things which are above and “follow Christ” instead of our own ways. What keeps us from doing so?
Thanks for the link. selahV
Thanks for your encouragement.
Stan:
Al Mohler for one doesn’t see it that way as I read him in Time Magazine. And I doubt Frank Page and the head of the IMB see it that way. If he does, the IMB man he should let us Know.
We are not at war with the Muslims, not unless Newt Gingrich and Frank Graham make it so.
We are at war with Al Qaeda just like progressive Baptists were at War, a spiritual War with the KKK and Texas Regulars mentality in the 60′s; that is with the exception of Texas Regulars and Criswell who were instigators, provocateurs and complicitors.
See Comment 19 about fundamentalist absolutists, many of whom are on this board. They are the problem
Christiane, SelahV and others like them are not. Bill Mac appears to be on a learning curve and I applaud him for it.
Stephen, You are correct. Mine is a minority opinion.
I could be wrong, and hope that I am, but it seems to me that a lot of Americans have their heads in the sand on this one. That includes Al Mohler, et al.
I greatly admire and respect Al Mohler by the way.
Tomorrow, or maybe in an hour or so, I will change my mind again to not caring about the future of the United States at all and only concern myself with the Kingdom of God.
Pray for me.
Stan, we can be a minority of at least two!
My forces have doubled in one minute. If we can keep this rate of growth up for the next…
QUOTE We are not at war with the Muslims, END QUOTE
Absolutely this is NOT what the Koran teaches. The Koran teaches every Muslim is obligated to spread the faith — using force as necessary.
I do agree: the war did not start after 911. It started in the 7th century.
One example:
In Sura 9 (At-Tauba) verse 5, the Koran* states: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…
* An English Translation of The Holy Qur’an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
All the more reason to share the gospel and show them their faith is deeply flawed. Jesus is alive. He suffered, He died, He rose again. He came to do those things that all who believe in Him might have everlasting life. We are no better than another human being–Christ died to provide us His righteousness. He died to give us that righteousness when we call on Him in faith that His blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. How great a message we have to share with the Muslim world–the entire world.
My prayer is that we Christians will begin to lift one another up in prayer to have the boldness of Paul, the courage of David, the faith of the saints, and the love of Christ. selahV
Stan, I’ll pray for you. May God grant you the wisdom to discern His perfect will for your life and how you should spend it in service to our Lord Jesus Christ. May your love for Christ grow stronger and deeper with each breath you take. May we all concern ourselves with the Kingdom of God and lay all else on the altar and let God provide the sacrifice He seeks as we follow Him in completer obedience.
May grace abound for you and yours. selahV
“They were devout Muslims. Islam is a nationalistic religion. ”
CB, I would argue that Islam is not a religion but an ideology. They cannot practice their religion in totality in a pluralistic society. We see this by the banning of any criticism of Islam in Netherlands. We see this by their assassinations of those who dare to critisize Islam. We see this by the Sharia law courts in Britian and the Netherlands. The demand to practise their religion in totality means gutting our Constitution for a few.
It is really no different than making concessions in the law for Nazi’s to practice their brand of “justice”. Islam is a fascist ideology that is disguised as a ‘religion’.
What continues to bother me is the American left. What are they thinking when they see the oppression and even murder of women in Islam?
There is no such thing as “moderate Islam”. However, there are moderate Muslims because they do not follow Quran, thankfully. Let us hope that they will continue to not know the Quran.
It is interesting to hear the testimonies of those who escaped Islam such as this woman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLmkHMBsls4&feature=related
Ayaan Hirsi Ali escaped Islam and became a member of Parliament in the Netherlands. She wrote the script for Submission for which Theo van Gogh was assassinated by Muslims. She now lives in the US. She claims we are not fighting a war on terror but we are fighting Islam.
The Muslim mindset will view the prayer center being built a few hundred yards from ground zero as a huge win. Does that matter? What emboldened Hitler? What emboldens any bully?
Matt:
Look at Criswell in the 50′s. Look at the Council for National Policy and Schlafly’s Eagle Forum and the Birch Society.
Your Southern Baptist history and we’re not talking ancient, just 50 years ago was as bad or worse as what you are condemning in your perception of Muslim faith.
Ali Hirsi has some strong words for all of us.
At the same time Robert Parham has a documentary with Muslims who are searching for a better way.
It would hard for me to be convinced that you know more about Muslims than Martin Accad at the Baptist Seminary at Lebanon.
What this board can do is help fundamentalist Baptists who are as ABsolute as fundamentalist Muslims see the error of their way. Educate folks, Read Kimball on Absolutists.
Let’s get a response from the head of the IMB to see if his estimation of the IMB is the same as yours.
And God Help the SBC if it is.
“At the same time Robert Parham has a documentary with Muslims who are searching for a better way.”
Stephen, I have no idea how my comment has anything to with Criswell or Schafly? I was not aware that my comment was supporting either of them or anything that happened in American history that was not of Christ by Christians?
I thought the topic was Islam and the prayer center. I am really not interested in a contest on who is worse: Muslims or Criswell.
As to ‘searching for a better way’, that would mean ditching the Quran which teaches the very things we have witnessed.
Interesting post.
Stephen, I don’t think you are a stupid man, but sometimes it appears you do a pretty good impression of one
QUOTE What this board can do is help fundamentalist Baptists who are as ABsolute as fundamentalist Muslims END QUOTE
All you have to do is casually read the Koran and you could never, as a truly honest person, make the statement you make above. It is just foolhardy — in my opinion — to not make the connection between 911 and the Koran.
Muslims committing acts of terrorism (cowardly, cold blooded murder) are doing nothing inconsistent with the Koran.
Definitely a difference between said fundamentalists.
Look SSBN, You are too smart to wallow in ignorance or get in a urinating contest with me.
Lot of folks much more sophisticated on these matters have worked through stuff we could spend four years spittin at each other about here in this hogwallop of a conversation.
Why not consider engaging Accad and Charles Kimball on this matter. Get Parham’s DVD. What are you afraid of. Are you afraid the Holy spirit and your intelligence will guide you to a place where Ronnie Floyd and others like him will make your career path in the SBC very difficult?
Is that what you are afraid of?
Absolutiest have no boundaries across fundamentalisms.
Check Kimball for starters on that point.
And by all means let’s see if there is a consensus at the IMB about this matter.
And listen, you know in your gut there are ways to read The Bible and come to the same conclusions you come to about the Koran.
Secularists do it for Sport everyday, so why don’t you do something a little wiser and Christian instead of taunting somebody into that dungheap of a discussion.
QUOTE And listen, you know in your gut there are ways to read The Bible and come to the same conclusions you come to about the Koran. END QUOTE
Stephen, here is where your moderate, errant view of the Bible differs from my conservative, inerrant view. You cannot equate the imprecatory passages of the Old Testament the same way you interpret the 109 or so war versus of the Koran.
I do agree there are passages in the Old Testament that are troublesome, but they are a part of the story, not the main plot of the story — as in the Koran. It does not take an expert to understand the difference. It just takes a little reading and a little thinking.
So I disagree, what you say I know in my “gut,” is not what I have come to know through my mind. I’m sorry you consider my views “taunting.”
Once again, I’ve stepped in “it” assuming it would be possible to actually have a discussion with you. I definitely am not “taunting” anybody.
What emboldened Criswell and Pressler and Jesse Helms.
Kimball has a strong suggestion it is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY like that of many on this board in INERRANCY that gets people ralleying around something other than Jesus.
Absolute Certainty cuts across all kinds of traditions and causes.
In The SBC it has become something like the Sharia of fundamentalist baptist life.
Stephen, I think a major differences between the comparisons you keep making toward Criswell is that any errors in what he “thought” and believed and preached about social issues, is worlds apart from what the Islamic extremists believed as they screamed Allah and flew those planes into the Twin Towers. One major distinction, for all the fault you may uncover and magnify of Criswell in a few sermons of the thousands he preached, he believed that Jesus Christ was His Redeemer and Jesus Christ was his righteousness, and in Him is all truth. The extremists believed their acts of terror were their righteousness and when weighed on a scale, they counted their acts as good works.
As Christians we all try to live our lives as Christ would want us to live. But we know our righteousness is not good enough for God. Ever. That is why our Savior, Jesus Christ, came to suffer, die and rise again to conquer death and the grave–to pay the penalty for our sins. We cannot pay the penalty for our sins by doing any amount of good in this world. Muslims believe they can do “what they believe is good” and if their good outweighs the bad, then they get into heaven.
Yes, I believe there are many Baptists who think that way too. Which is why we must continue to grow in Christ and preach the inerrant absolute Word of God. selahV
I was gonna ask if you were an inerrantist, and you pretty much answered my question in the last paragraph.
Is there a chance you may be open to reading Charles Kimball’s Book When Religion Becomes Evil?
He is an ordained Baptist minister. I would be particularly interested to see what you do with his sections of Absolute Certainty.
Hoping everything does not get lost in translation.
I do appreciate the relative grace with which you approached the subject of the Mosque in your original blog here that set off the discussion at ths site; it’s own Ground Zero of sorts.
Oh, at some point Hope you come across Chandler Davidson’s 100 pages on Criswell in Race and Class in Texas Politics; bur for right now hoping you can find a way to take a look at Kimball on Absolute Certainty.
Of course she’s an inerrantist…she’s a Christian.
Ed Setzer is tweeting the IMB at this moment.
Let’s contact the IMB and get a definitive statement to see how they square with Matt and SSBN on this matter.
http://www.imb.org/main/page.asp?StoryID=4485&LanguageID=1709
Stephen, just to let you know that nothing the IMB says has any bearing on what I believe or what I say.
They don’t represent me, and I don’t represent them. And for you to link my name with Matt — that really offends me
I have a reputation to think about.
Bart Barber has a great post on this topic as well. Of course, Bart is so much better at articulating than I. Click HERE. selahV
SelahV,
Maybe we should give Ole Bart a good water-boardin’ and straighten him out. I wouldn’t do that to you ’cause you are a lady.
CB, that’s mighty nice of you. I’m a real wimp. I’d be changing my ways and crying uncle before you even tied me down. Glad I’m still your friend. selahV
SelahV,
In reality it is impossible to state what is the “Christian perspective” on this issue, because it does not really have anything to do with our faith directly.
This is more of a socio-political issue to me. I don’t like the fact that a Mosque would be built at Ground Zero. To me it really has nothing to do with witnessing to Muslims. The Great Commission already mandates me to do that.
The issue to me is the lack of sensitivity toward the fallen, the families of the fallen and those fighting a war as a resultant action on behalf of the fallen. Our nation was attacked there by Islamic terrorists. It is just an insensitive act in my opinion. I consider it to be wrong as an American, I guess. And I for one still don’t think it is a bad thing to be an American. And I certainly do not apologize for being one.
To me it is not different than if the Japanese erected a monument to the “Sun God” or Emperor Hirohito at Pearl Harbor. Or if Mexico put a statute of Santa Anna in front of the Alamo. I just would not like it. I would simply be against it and it has nothing to do with the need to share the gospel with Muslims.
There were a lot of bumper stickers in San Antonio in 88 that Said Remember the Alamo. One of them was on my Dad’s Car.
So I guess there was a sense in which Randall Lolley when he Resolution 5 was upset that SBC Takeover Fundamentalists Terrorists had attaced SEBTS. I imagine James Deloach and CB Scott know something about that.
So I don’t know how I would play that out here except to say Imam Rauf has a leg up on James Deloach cause Rauf for one is not a fundamentalist in his religion like Deloach and Scott; and Rauf isn’t having Mullahs come to Cordova Mosque and Preach “Skunk” sermons to 10’000 raging fundamentalist preachers who are ready to do some purging of all his fellow believers who don’t believe in a Sharia like version of the first 11 chapters of Genesis like Mullah Pressler told Jack Flanders about it.
Now this analogy breaks down in places, but I think Charles Kimball when he talks about Absolutists does have something to say to James Deloach and Pressler and Helms and I wish CB Scott would explore him on the matter and see what he could learn; And Hariette as well.
Hariette, have you had the chance to explore Kimball on these matters.
In conclusion, since CB raised the Alamo; Randall Lolley was there. I saw it with my own eyes.
Steve,
I was there in ’88. I was actually close enough to hear the Park Rangers tell Randall Lolley that it was illegal for him to assemble a group at the Alamo. It truly was a sight indeed.
Yet, what does that event in the life of Randall Lolley and the SBC have to do a Mosque at Ground Zero?
But just think Steve, you and I may have been standing next to each other on the hot day in June of ’88. Who could have known then that we would be such pals today?
I think Jimmy Allen once said that when Carter sent him to Iran on an occasion, he met a radical there that a few years earlier he had met in the states and gotten to know well. I forget the outcome of the story, but in remembering their earlier contact they had a foundation to see the current matter from a different framework.
Of course there were folks in the room in Nashville during the Peace Committee talks that had all kinds of earlier engagement and they were not able to reconcile, so I guess fundamentalisms has its different stories.
Clark Pinnock had a different pilgrimage from his Disciples Vines and Rogers, and Richard Marious and Joe Barnhart had their Pilgrimage as well.
It is interesting we were there within sight of each other in San Antonio. In an amped up screenplay could be a memorable scene.
Whatever else obtains, I do hope you can wade into Cormac McCarthy’s Suttree this fall. Somewhere about the 21st Day of October is a good time to start. Mark that on your calendar.
Or if Jesse Helms after his record on Civil Rights, his folks put James Deloach on the Board of Trustees at SEBTS and Deloach became the Vice President. That would be an example for CB Scott as he continues in Absolute Certainty upholds his own version of Sharia Law: INERRANCY.
CB…I do not like it either. I think that perspective keeps getting lost in my post. I agonize over this. And it hurts deeply to think of what this is doing to our fellow Americans.
I gotta run. I just realized I’m late for an appointment. But I’ll be back. I need to finish what I’m thinking here, my friend. selahV
Okay, CB, I’m back. What can be done about all the misuses of the Constitution when it comes to common sense? What can be done other than workers who are now protesting to even work on the building?
I do not think unkindly AT ALL of those who disagree with the building of the mosque. My thoughts are those which drag at my soul because sometimes our Constitution (or the interpreters of it), seem to go against common sense of right. I don’t agree with flag-burnings, taking prayer out or schools, and eliminating the Ten Commandments from government owned buildings either. I wish all schools would no longer be public, but private and then we could put what we want in them, and give out all the Bibles we pleased to people. I think some things that are sanctioned today by the constitution are what extremists use to destroy American values and principles. But the roars are not debate or disagreement anymore, they are getting worse and worse. It’s a scary thing to realize that our nation’s capital has nearly a half million muslims living in and around it when such anger is being fueled in our country. Don’t you think? selahV
SelahV,
In all seriousness, I think that the United States is headed for Hell in a runaway wagon pulled by many evil horses and the only hope we have is the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ.
I pretty much agree with Howell. And here is what I would like to see the Muslims who wanted to build this Islamic Center say, although I don’t believe it lines up with Islamic teaching.
As American Muslims we have Constitutional religious freedom to build a Mosque or Islamic Center near Ground Zero. As much as we desire to build we more desire to show the world that we love and respect our fellow Americans. In order to show respect to other Americans and to show radical Islam that this is about living peacefully with people of other faiths we will not build the center so close to Ground Zero. We want to show the world that we understand the sensitivities involved in this issue and will do so by agreeing to a compromise.
Also, here is an article by Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, two Muslims who are on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress, entitled Mischief in Manhattan: We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation. This article shows that there are atleast some vocal Muslims who get it.
Mark, I would like to see the Muslim leaders who seek to build this mosque say those things too. I’d be happy if the Muslim community at large would stand up and say that. I will not hold my breath, but I do wish they would.
It’s terribly late, but I look forward to reading your link tomorrow after I’ve slept. Looks like it will be a good one. Blessings. selahV
Mark and SelahV,
We probably will not hear any Muslim “leaders” say what Mark has sensibly said. The reasons may have to do with who we think the moderate Muslim leaders are. For a good analysis of why more Muslim-Americans do not speak out, Andy McCarthy at National Review Online has written several great pieces, including “Which Islam Will Prevail,” (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244349/which-islam-will-prevail-america-andrew-c-mccarthy) and “Inventing Moderate Islam” (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244545/inventing-moderate-islam-andrew-c-mccarthy).
Howell
De La Torre has a response it seems to me to Raza and Fatah.
The concluding thoughts are strong indeed about Four Freedoms.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16565
Steve,
I have stated my opinion on a Mosque being built at Ground Zero. If you read my comment you see my position really has nothing to do with what I believe the Christian perspective is, because I feel there is no way to present one. My opposition has to do with the lack of sensitivity of it on behalf of those who would build it toward those who died there and continue to die because of it and their perspective families.
What is your personal view of the building of the Mosque? We both know the building of the Mosque has nothing to do with the CR or “fundamentalists” Christians. What do you really think about the Mosque being built at Ground Zero?
Just FYI
Video of the ground zero Iman telling an audience, outside the US, that we (the US) are ‘worse than al Qaeda’.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673
Sounds a bit like Stepen trying to convince us that Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd (uh…wasn’t he a KKK, too?) are worse than the Muslim Terrorists who mass murder infidels.
Matt, sounds like the Iman speaks out of both sides of his mouth, doesn’t it? Depending on his audience. selahV
Matt and SelahV may be behind the curve on this one. Shirley Sherrod is the latest analogy on the Atlas Shrugged Birch Society soundbite. If you hear Imam RAuf in full in context, in the 05 speech, he in fact deplores the same thing Matt and the Birch Society wants us to believe he is endorsing.
Also Matt see my comment about four below from earlier on the Birch Society and Intentional Deceit.
Stephen, I’m always behind the curve. I need enlightenment with just about everything. Just look at this post. You’d think I was dumb as a sack of rocks–my logic falls short, my distinctions need work, I ask stupid questions, and CB wants to waterboard me, but won’t cause he is a gentleman. Ha ha. Had to do that CB
. selahV
If you won’t tell CB, sometimes I am behind the curve myself. Overall for whatever it’s worth I thought your original piece here is pretty well written and fairly magnanimous, kind of breath of fresh air.
With the exception of CB Scott we are all pretty much dumb as a sack of rocks,with JoeB and VolFan being the weightiest rocks in the sack.
But with everything virtuous in me on this matter, I do hope you will not waste another minute gettin your hands of Kimball’s great work: When Religion Becomes Evil.
Something very good could come of all this if you will get on it immediately and do another blog on all this in two weeks to 17 days.
In the meantime I hope you will consider the possibility Matt’s link to the Birchin Atlas Shrugged deceit may amount to another version of the lies told of Shirley Sherrod by the Devil’s Minion, Breitbart.
SelahV,
The truth is, I have never water-boarded an American, male or female. So don’t you worry. You are safe with me.
I got one sister and if she hadn’t married the fellow she did, well, like many of you, CB Scott woulda been number One on my list for a Brother In Law
Christmas Dinner would have been interesting Steve.
Keep dreaming, Stephen. I think Ayn Rand was evil and the Birchers died out decades ago. I have been a bit amused to see all the John Galt bumper stickers around. I guess it is a reaction to all the “moochers” of stimulus money both public and private.
I think you are fooled by the handsome Imam.
Stephen, “magnanimous”. I had to google that. hee hee. I thought it meant something nice, but was surprised to see how nice. Thanks for you kind encouraging words. I don’t know that Matt is too far off on his thoughts on the Imam. I will look into Kimball’s book. Just because you asked so nicely and are so nice to me.
Won’t promise a post because I was listening to Glenn Beck (shudder everyone), talk to the founder of Wall Builders on his program today. I happen to like Wall Builders a lot. I only caught the tailend of his show, but it seems that someone (in the Muslim community) is now trying to denigrate all of Christianity with the same accusation that when we Christians went to war in countries, and had victories that we built our Christian churches as a sign of conquest. PULEEZE. But I will look into Kimball’s work. Why the rush for a post from me? selahV
Matt, not to support Stephen because he said such nice things about me, but I know of a couple in Oklahoma who just started a John Birch group and are trying to recruit folks. I am not familiar with them, but know this to be a fact. selahV
) But really Matt, I wish you’d add a $ sign after your name so I know who you are. Blogtown has so many Matt’s I’m getting crazy trying to keep up with them. And if you put a $ sign next to your name, it could signify that everything you say is “on the money”. Hee, hee. Matt$, wouldn’t that be cool? selahV
BTW…do I know you Matt? I know you aren’t the editor of this blogsite, Matt. He and I seem to mix like oil and water. (I think it is a generational gap thing. Hi, Matt S.
I don’t normally gamble, but I might be willing to put $20 down on this prop bet. Here’s the challenge. Block the heading and then read a comment. Try to guess what the original article is.
I bet you can’t find any relationship between the comment and the post.
HA HA HA. Thanks, Dave. Your comment is spot on. selahV
The issue before us in all of this is religious liberty, and the President has come out said he is for the Muslims to have their right to build their cultural center/mosque with the area that was affected by the Jihadists attack upon the World Trade Towers. However, I have a serious question: Where was the President, when the North Carolina legislature denied the liberty of a Chistian minister to close his prayers at that august assemly “in Jesus name”? And where was the President, when the ACLU backed by some Jews and some Muslims, persuaded a judge that no Christian minister could pray before a Winston-Salem, NC city/county governmental meeting “in Jesus name”? All of which is passing strange as about 20-30 minutes to the East of Winston-Salem in Greensboro, NC is the Battlefield of Guilford Courthouse where one of my ancestors, a professing Christian, took part in a battle for (among other things) freedom of religion. Did he do that so his descendants could not pray in the name of Jesus? I know better. The powers behind the scenes want the Christians out of sight and out of mind, thinking they have no rights, while every one else does their thing. Sharia law will not allow Chistians to evangelize on street corners. How long will it allow Christians to even worship in their own buildings? There is a big difference between religious liberty and mere, degrading, patronizing tolerance. The arrest of believers on the streets of Dearborn, MI is a warning as to what is coming. I believ in religious liberty, but I don’t believe any country can long endure where part of the citizens believe and practice and another part does not believe it and practices to the contrary….just as in the matter of slavery. I for one will stand for religious liberty, but I question the wisdom of allowing those who do not believe in it to begin to institute a form of law that is essentially contrary to the Supreme Law of the land which is the US Constitution, a covenantal idea borrowed from the Old and New Testaments. Real care needs to be exercised in this matter, for who wants to lose their religious liberty to those who do not view it like we do, who view it as mere toleration and will not for a moment allow for any one to change his or her mind?
Matt: Your link is sponsored by the John Birch Society which in the 60′s had billboards all over the South with a Picture of Martin Luther King Jr saying he was at a Communist Training School.
Their School happenned to be near Sewanee Tennesse where Myles Horton using the Gospel he’d learned in class at Union Seminary with the likes of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Frank Fisher and Reinhold Niebuhr.
Charles Marsh has a lecture from Berlin earlier this year you can google up as your wait for his biography of Marsh. The same Marsh whose father was a classmate of Adrian Rogers at NOBTS and whose church member in Laurel Mississippi was SBC Peace Committee Member Charles Pickering.
I have not seen where Marsh speaks on the matter of theCordova Mosque or has attempted to channel Bonhoeffer on this matter, but I would be taken aback if either of them would put much stock in the Birch Society.
If I am not mistaken Rauf’s wife or a Muslim woman close to this Mosque effort in the presence of a friendly Jewish Rabbi spoke to this very matter of the Geller Atlas Shrugged blog Sunday on ABC This Week.
And now Ron Paul himself has come out saying the First Amendment is the bottom line here, dismissing the feeble Birch Society attempts to polarize matters further.
I guess I’m saying genocide is a serious matter.
I had an interesting conversation earlier this year invoking the name of Bonhoeffer with a nationally acclaimed novelist one of whose novels is in its third printing in French; conversation about the Shelton Laurel Massacre outside Asheville NC in 1863 where neighbor killed neighbor leaving 15 dead when it was over.
Matt, I think you and Newt Gingrich and the Birch Society have a great deal to learn from the witness of one of the greatest Servants of Jesus Christ in the 20th Century, a true Martyr for the Christian Faith, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Instead of arguing with me about it, begin a pilgrimage a walk toward greater Light with Charles Marsh’s Wayward Christian Soldiers; and come back to this board in a couple months with a guest blog review of the book and maybe we can advance this miserable discussion considerably.
Hariette, with Kimball’s book, hope you will engage Marsh as well; and maybe something good can come from this mess after all; incremental understanding, leaning toward Greater Light.
“Matt: Your link is sponsored by the John Birch Society which in the 60?s had billboards all over the South with a Picture of Martin Luther King Jr saying he was at a Communist Training School.
”
Stephen, I think it is time to take off the tin foil hat.
Are you talkin about the one Johnny Cash was wearing in M Knight Shamalyan Movie?
I know my Birch Society and I know you got a Shirley Sherrod problem with Geller; that’s what I know.
And if Curtis Freeman shows up for lunch at Duke with CB Scott, then CB won’t be as ignorant as he is now.
Click over to Jerry Vines Blog and see if I made the moderation cut on the comment I submitted there.
http://www.jerryvines.com/blog/memories-of-dr-clark-pinnock/
Put this under your tin foil cap.
When Vines was at West Rome, his congregation was eat up with Birchers. Couda been one reason why they were so receptive to Adrian Rogers when he preached his Secular Humanism sermon there on Tower of Babel in 79; just a thought before we get back to Cordoba Mosque
Steve,
Maybe if you come along, Freeman might join us, but I would rather talk to his predecessor Furman Hewitt again. I will never forget that conversation.
“I knew it would only be a matter of time before you would link Paige Patterson to Islamic terrorists.”
C.B., you’re losing it, man.
Thank you for noticing L’s. I am trying to get some weight off. I have been hitting the weights hard again. I ordered me a new treadmill. It should be here in a week or so. Next time you are in town, you can try it out. Then we will go out for Pizza. Bob Cleveland introduced me to a wonderful Italian place last year. I think you will love it.
Now if I could just get you to cease trying to tie Paige Patterson to all the evil in the world things will be great. Of course, we can talk about that over Pizza when you get into town.
Christiane:
You said to CB, “C.B., you’re losing it, man.”
Sadly, few of his “friends” will tell him this.
Tom, “IF” CB is losing it, at least he had something to lose. You on the other hand….
Tom Parker,
I will be in the Triad in September for the Duke-Bama game. I will be there for about five or six days to visit with family. I will stop by your office and we can get some lunch and talk about Lunatics, Nuts, Flakes, Wild Geese, Theological Dwarves, Cretans and such like. If you can get Gene Scarborough out of the trees, maybe he can join us.
I am most positive you two will have much to add to the conversation.
Tom: If Curtis Freeman could join you for lunch at Bullock’s in Durham, and you and Scarborough can find some tape recorders, I would consider it.
Freeman wrote the story on Criswell’s 56 speech to the SC legislature, and how Stewart Newman, one of my Baptist heroes, Atticus Finch like, stood up and said WA Criswell does not speak for me.
One of the great Baptist utterances of the 20th Century.
Hopefully Freeman is up on Page 51 on Diarmand MacCulloch’s book where in one paragraph he laid waste to Pressler’s trip to see Jack Flanders at Baylor in 65 or so.
And hold CB to reading Blood Done Sign My Name, a colleague of Freeman At Duke,Tim Tyson; before you spend your valuable time with him. Make him earn it.
Unless Freeman and Scarborough promise to show up, if I were you I’d skip it.
Two other notes for all,
Get Low with Duvall and Lucas Black opens Friday; and many of you will want to read my submission to Jerry Vines blog on Clark Pinnock.
It is awaiting moderation.
Steve,
Bullock’s is nice. Good idea. Why don’t you catch a plane and join us?
Sean Hannity and Rupert Murdoch in bed with Imam Rauf? Unless I am as dumb as SelahV’s Sack of Rocks that is what I think we are looking at here:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/foreign-policy/77176/ground-zero-mosque-the-subversive-theology-imam-rauf-contd
Rupert Murdoch does own Fox News, Right?
To quote the Baptist preacher’s Daughter, Aretha Franklin: “Who’s Zoomin Who?”
And, when will the Birch Society jump on Rupert?
Hey Stephen, let’s join hands and write a conspiracy thriller. You do the research, I’ll do the writing. We could say that the Imam is building this mosque to say Islam is conquering that spot. Then we could have all the Al-Qaeda folks kissing up to him (behind the scenes of course). Then the government (Obama who everyone is thinking is an undercover Muslim anyway), use the Imam as a double agent who is actually going to use the mosque in New York as a recruiting spot for sleeper cells. And then these sleeper cells are being infiltrated because the government (who everyone distrusts) has used this new mosque to “bug” like the Russians do our American Embassies. And in the end of the show, we discover the Imam is a conservative Republican who was converted to Christianity. And the enemy becomes the hero. Huh? wanna? Huh?
selahV
Don’t want to give away all my original ideas, but Criswell if much better fodder for a movie than the Imam. I don’t want to say I’m talkin to people; but I did call Brad Pitt’s brother once on another matter, but all I got was the answering machine. I was close to gettin him to pickin up the phone.
You got to figure the market on these matters. Hariette, if you got avenues to deep pockets who are ready to put up $50 million; risk it on an idea then we’re in business.
Tough news is Gangs of New York was a great movie but last I heard 8 years out it’s still to turn a profit.
If the Criswell movie is never done, I guess the closest we’ll get is the street preacher who plays opposite Haze Motes in the 1980 version of Wise Blood with Brad Dourif as Haze. You ever seen that? It’s Criswell for sure. Haze has a great line.
Stuttering he says: “But I’m Serious”.
I’m always thinking but gettin poorer by the day.
Stephen, I want to be kind here, and I hope you take this with the same spirit in which you spoke of my magnanimous spirit on this blogpost above. And I am serious, my friend, I think your continual hammering on Criswell is almost as divisive to this thread as the mosque at Ground Zero. Criswell will always be a remarkable preacher and theologian to our history as Baptists. If the paper I read of Criswell’s is truth on his opinion on the segregation issue, then I am sorry he said those things. I can imagine the hurt and heartache that his words caused in that day. I also imagine if he were alive today, he would have another view entirely. I truly believe that, Stephen. To rehash that here doesn’t seem to have a thing to do with what I wrote in the post above–definitely no more than my silly joking about the conspiracy thriller.
God’s grace be upon you, Stephen. May your love for our Lord grow deeper with each day. and I am serious.
selahV
Maybe we can pick up Criswell in another venue. I think he was a scalawag, but a colorful one. I wish Truett had lived long enough to take him to the Woodshed,like Eisenhower took Joe McCarthy; that is what Criswell deserved.
But he was colorful and he sure could wear that zuit suit, and as a performance artist he was quite a show. How seriously he was to be taken, well atsome point we get into Steven Miller’s conundrum with Billy Graham; how do you examine an icon whose words are so much of the public record.
I am glad you read Curtis Freeman’s piece The Fiery Sermon on Criswell in 56. In it if you paid attention you got an inkling of the great man, Stewart Newman, who was the Atticus Finch of the story.
I read today on Jerry Vines blog where he mocked was derisive of Carlyle Marney. If the definitive essay on that time gets written, I hope you will read it.
I am hopeful and take you at your word you will be reading Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil, soon.
I had an email exchange with him today. He is aware of the conversation here.
Scalawag???
There you go again Steve. I don’ think W.A. Criswell ever worked for the Yankees and Carpetbaggers.
I always thought he was a furrier whose specialty was “skunk” pelts.
Come on CB; it’s a metaphor not a literal usage.
Analogous in the realm of parable.
Compared to George Truett, in whose Birthplace Memorial namesake church I got saved and was Baptized; which Stewart Newman visitted on an occasion circa 1960; in relation to SBC of Truett and the best of that tradition contra Jerry Vines Blog of yesterday was indeed Carlyle Marney, Stewart Newman and not Adrian Rogers and Criswell; with that as the reference and Not the Civil War; in the Best of the Baptist Tradition Criswell was a SCALAWAG.
I want to use another word, a Will Campbell word, but I will hold my cabbage so I can continue to participate on this board.
As Lincoln said, the Judgments of the Lord are True and Righteous Altogether.
Or Somethinglike that.
Ihave said it, you better believe it, and that settles it.
You know, you are right Steve.
It was a “metaphor not a literal usage. Analogous in the realm of parable.”
I think that is the exact same way Criswell used the word “skunks.”
Moslem Parking in Mayfield Ky.
Have yall seen that story yet; How ridiculous.
Flower shop owner said Baptists know how to park but Moslem’s don’t.
Talk about Goodwill.
MohlerandRuss Moore ought to show a little hospitality.
Google up the story which went national tonight on MSNBC Countdown
Stephen, Mayfield is not a very big town in KY as I recall. This could be a genuine situation. Our church in East Hartford, Connecticut couldn’t get a license to build up on our church to make more S.S. space when we were outgrowing our church, because the parking was a problem. But I bet the MSNBC wouldn’t have covered that if they’d been around back then. I think you will now see every single solitary grievance being spotlighted about Muslims, now.
Why don’t you research and try and find out how many things that the goverment has done in the last, let’s say, two years that have stepped on the rights and sensibilities of Christians? I’d be glad to write a post on that for you. selahV
I need to make this statement directly to SSBN.
It became apparent to me that my pointing to the existence of hate groups who steep their rhetoric in bastardized versions of scripture was misconstrued as trying to say, “We’re just as bad as they are” when that wasn’t my intent.
I was trying to point out that there are crazy radicals which use the bible in the same way someone would say, “The sky is blue” in that I was trying to state a fact of their existence.
That was my fault for the ambiguity.
My pointing to the crusades was to point out that historically, Christ has been used a rallying point for people to justify their horrific actions which can be found throughout the recorded history of various aspects of the crusades despite not having full and total backing from the Vatican which was considered the church at the time. I was trying to make the same point and tie it all together.
I wasn’t trying to make, but I did make a straw man argument which doesn’t have a place in this conversation.
Your rebuttal of my statements was accurate just as my intended points are accurate but not relevant to this thread.
Matt, please delete my postings concerning that because they do not contribute in any way to our discussions here.
Thank you for this post. I am glad someone said this and that it is receiving attention here. I hope we will begin to realize that our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven is more important than our citizenship as an American.
QUOTE I hope we will begin to realize that our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven is more important than our citizenship as an American. END QUOTE
Are you just now beginning to realize this? I don’t know anyone who has ever believed any different that posts on this blog.
SSBN,
I agree with you. Who among us who has actually experienced the wonder of Christ and knows we sit in the “heavenlies” would for a moment consider this temporal abode as home I am a sojourner here. But God has stated for me to be a diligent sojourner and steward of all He has provided while I am here. God made me an America, I have a stewardship as an American.
But, praise God, this ain’t my home!!
SSBN, I don’t know Keith, but would bet that more than the folks who post here, read this blog. And there probably are a few out there in lah lah land that do think their Americanism is more important. If nothing else, maybe it speaks to them??? selahV
Keith, thanks so much. I pray that the words I wrote are read far and wide and that Muslims find their way through the google links and discover that Jesus Christ is the Lord of Lords, and only begotten Son of God. I pray the Holy Spirit reaches beyond this monitor and helps all Muslims who read these words to know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I am a Christian. But nothing I do in all the world, no matter how much I feed the poor, give to the destitute, or love my neighbor is enough good to get me into heaven. Nor would all my good ever outweigh the sinfulness that separates me from the Most High God, apart from Jesus Christ who left the majesty of His throne in Heaven, to become a man, to die on a cross, shed His blood as God’s perfect sacrifice (illustrated to us early in the book of Genesis as Abraham offered up Isaac, his only son) for our sins. It’s Jesus’ blood and death on the cross that paid the penalty for my sin, and all who look to Him in faith. Jesus was not a prophet, He is the living Son of God. He came not to save sinners. To cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He paid the penalty that each and every person deserves so all who believe in Him, rely on Him and trust in Him can live eternally with Him and the Father in heaven. That, dear Keith is the purpose of this post. May God bring much fruit from it. Thank you for commenting. May God surround you with His grace and pour out blessings abundantly. selahV
Hariette: I think you are prime to start wading into Diarmand MacCulloch’s 3,000 years of Christianity. Read the last 30 pages first and then maybe the segment on the Three Great Suspicions.
SSBN and CB Scott aren’t gonna listen to me; but maybe you can translate it to them.
There is a great big wide world of Christendom outside the confines of fundamentalism and Inerrancy. I hope you Pilgrim on.
Ah, but Stephen, I haven’t figured out all I need to learn about Fundamentalism and Inerrancy yet. I’m doing my best…thank God for Philippians 1:6. The Christ will not let me down, I’m sure. selahV P.S. I’m gonna give you a big red heart and a smiley face for spelling my name right. Good going! <3
And thanks for spellin mine with a PH
One thing’s for sure, if that mosque is built there, it can be a constant reminder of who did what to whom, in that very neighborhood. A bit like the Dachau museum I went through, which detailed what all had gone on there and was built so that it might not ever be allowed to happen again.
A wise statement Bob. Maybe we could put that sign up like at Dachau that says:
“NEVER AGAIN”
Bob, great thoughts on how to make lemonade from lemons. selahV
Does anybody notice that certain people must constantly bash Al Mohler and others? These are the same people who constantly refer to the “milder side” of Our Lord.
Seems like hypocrisy to me. Why is it that a moderate can be hateful and spiteful but whines and shouts if a conservative does the same thing?
It really does get old. But, then again, it might be effective. Hitler said, “Say something loud enough long enough and people will begin to believe it is true.”
I must confess to be a little annoyed by it.
SSBN…yes. I have noticed that people keep bashing a lot of folks. And so many of these men of God don’t have any idea folks are being so snipey towards them. It is sad. I wrote a post on that once at my site…”One man’s wit is another man’s arrogance”. Just about every blog has had its share of dissing Mohler, Patterson, Chapman, Vines et al. They don’t have to say a word on the blogpost and their name come up. You can write a post about butterflies and this would happen. I wish it wouldn’t. But the grenade throwers and stone lobbers just can’t help themselves. They just need more of our prayers, SSBN. I get particulary ticked off when anyone speaks disparagingly about Adrian Rogers. I noticed his name come up in someone’s comment and I knew to just keep on going. God reminded me that He was dining with Adrian that very moment, and for me not to fret. He sees and hears everything. He does not sleep, nor does he slumber. Good night my new friend. selahV
Adrian Rogers, Ed McAteer and Billy Graham:
Hariette, Coincidentally I came across this item this morning I wouldhope you would look at.
David Rogers, Adrian’s son, and I have developped an online friendship of sorts at various blogs, mostly SBCImpact. I posted a few items at his blog LoveEachStone three years ago.
I wouldn’t say he would call me his best friend, but I think our online conversations are cordial, bordering on frank and straightforward on occasion, especially recently on the death of Cecil Sherman where David drifted over to baptistlife.com for a few posts.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16574
This morning Bruce Prescott in the link above raises some question about Adrian Rogers role with Ed McAteer in the creation of the Religious Right and its key positioning in the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. At a minimum it would raise questions about David’s contention his Father was virginal in these matters, in re a recent declaration, about a month ago atSBCImpact where David said in 99 Adrian Rogers washed his hands of the Moral Majority and told Falwell that was not where his emphasis was.
This essay by Bruce Prescott shades it all a little differently, to say the least.
Stephen,
I think you may be guilty of throwing in a little spin with what was actually said. The only thing I commented on, related to my father’s relationship with Falwell, and the Moral Majority, was the direct quote, in this comment:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/07/19/whats-more-important-theology-or-saving-america/comment-page-2/#comment-53770
Here is another quote from David’s daddy that many people might not believe he made.
“In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.”
Now, I realize he was quoting Augustine there and he credited him thusly. Nonetheless, to paint Adrian Rogers as anything but honorable is wrong. He was a benevolent man who believed the Bible without compromise. And that made him a leader.
And SelahV is right. This is about the Mosque, not he CR.
CB, fine with me; take Hariette’s cue.
I’d love for you and Hariette to do a duet blog on the legacy of Adrian Rogers.
I think Gene Scarborough has a few words; maybe Jerry Vines will pick up on his blog, and we could compare his remark about Carlyle Marney and Clark Pinnock; and explore further the dissonance of Robert Marsh on the CR with Adrian Rogers who was at NOBTS with Vines and the boys and go from there.
Until that time, I’m more than happy to get back to Mosque with you and maybe we can explore Mayfield, Kentucky parking issues.
Ed McAteer who founded the Religious Roundtable out of Bellevue Baptist; McAteer always reminded me of Pappy of the Real McCoys.
Rupertus Meldenius???
David, I have never heard of Ole Rupert. Was he one of Ole Uncle Lagundas Meldenius’ boys?
Seriously David, every time I have ever heard or read that quote it has been attributed to Augustine. Thanks for the correction. Nonetheless, I know your daddy said it. And I believe he honored it.
Stephen, I am going to kindly ask you again…we’re talking about a mosque being built in NY and how as Christians, we can allow our vitriolic statements to hinder the gospel as pertaining to that mosque. This thread is NOT about Criswell, Adrian Rogers, Patterson or any of those who were not in favor of the Conservative Resurgence. Please. Do not draw David Rogers into a conversation that has nothing to do with this post. Write one of your own, if you choose. But do not usurp this post to dump on the CR. I have not always agreed with David Rogers, but I count him a friend and brother in Christ who doesn’t need to have someone who knows little about his father to drag his name through a liberal mudhole. selahV
Hariette:
I count David Rogers as a friend as well.
I am disappointed in your thin skin here, your overreaction.
No liberal Mudhole here, just exploring in good faith the wider penumbra of the Mosque question in reference to Charles Kimball’s thoughts in When Religion Becomes Evil on the problem across fundamentalisms of Absolute Certainty and how it plays out in various traditions.
I thought at one point you were bringing a little more water to the discussion than maybe you are.
Even so, Kimball is something of a force in these discussions outside your world here,and till this morning I took you to be interested in Light.
I hope you can regain your composure and we can look at how this is playing out in Mayfield, Kentucky as there are more Baptists there quite likely,percentage than there are in lower Manhattan.
As I said it was a coincidence that Prescott posted his thoughts on fundamentalism and the look back at the Religious Roundtable this morning at Ed.com.
I saw it there and as these discussions here at the Voices are wide ranging, thought you would have the largeness of heart to give notice to a matter for later reference in our concerted effort to find truth wherever it is.
A blessing might not be in order here, but if not immediately, hope you will be able to understand my heart in this matter within a few days.
CB,
FWIW, the correct source of the quote is actually Rupertus Meldenius.
See here: http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/quote.html
I hear your point, though, and it is well-received.
Hariette,
We have agreed on a few things now and then, too.
I just noticed DAvid’s link to Augustine.
In all sincerity and good will David, I hope you can make time soon to wade into David MacCulloch’s masterpiece on the first 3,000 years of Christianity.
Take a look at the last 30 pages, the segment on the Three Great Suspicions, and the pregnant thought on page 905. 905 meshes beautifully with this little aside we are having this morning on Bellevue, Ed McAteer and the Religious Roundtable.
In respect of CB Scott and Hariette, will hold off on my interpretation of your Dad’s Unity Quote till later. May bring it to Fisher Humphreys attention to see how it digests with him in this context.
Hope things otherwise are well.
Sfox
David, yes…we have agreed on many issues, my friend. I often remember you in prayer. How could I not? I get your dad’s prompter via his devotionals in my email box each day. The Spirit guides us in the most amazing ways, sometimes, doesn’t He? selahV
Stephen, I appreciate your engagements here. I am not the least thin-skinned. I do have a tender part in my heart for one of the greatest preachers in my opinion of all time, Adrian Rogers. His ministry lives on in the hearts of millions as I speak. As far as Kimball is concerned, I told you I would take a look at that book. I cannot begin to be expected to make any kind of response to something I have not read–nor do not know where it seeks to lead its readers. However, I do know what name-tossing can lead to in blogstreams, and I do not want this particular post to lose the fire for which I’ve set with my tiny little match because other emotions are tossed onto the flames.
Praying great grace upon you, Stephen. I am not mad at you, nor do I feel anything in particular…am quite calm. Heart’s not beating any faster. Breathing is regular. And I have no desire to run to the store to assauge some inner passion for chocolate by buying a box of ding-dongs.
I am a happy camper for the most part. Blogging is a joy to me. I feel I’ve shown myself to be quite “magnanimous” to you in all things, Stephen. Just stop bringing up the CR in this thread. That’s all I am asking of you. It is not about the CR. I know. I am the author of this post. Even if I am not the moderator of this blogsite, I am the facilitator of this particular stream. Friends? selahV
Hariette, here is an excerpt from Kimballs WRBE.
His homepage at OU.edu has lot of other options as well, reviews etc while you are looking for the book.
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/K/Charles.A.Kimball-1/excerpt.pdf
CB,
Well .. wherever the mosque might be located, there’s bound to be property on its right, and property on its left.
Bob,
The only church completely destroyed during 9-11 was a Greek Orthodox Church. You should check out the ordeal they are going through to reestablish their church facilities. They have had a terrible time thus far.
Why has the present administration not spoken out for the Greek Orthodox? It makes me wonder.
For today, Let’s look at the Mosque in Mayfield, Kentucky. That town has more in common with many of us than NYC; lot more prevailng Baptist influence there.
Anybody have any wisdom for Mayfield. What would you do if you were in Mayfield? What would the pastor of Maytown Baptist do, the one in Alabama? Has he spoken, this former President of the Pastor’s Conference?
I tell you what Steve.
Let’s get together and talk about it. The former president of the Alabama Baptist Pastor’s Conference and “this” Former Secretary-Treasurer of the Alabama Baptist Pastor’s Conference will gladly weigh in on the matter. What do you say?
BTW Steve, John and I did talk about this yesterday at lunch.
You should talk about me at lunch because I’m a force for good when not needlessly encumbered with Kudzu.
Killian should blog about the Mayfield Situation and we can go from there.
Right now, even in the wake of a strong article I read this morning at The New Republic, I’m proud of Mayor Bloomberg’s speech last night.
In Re Criswell and Duke’s Curtis Freeman who did the piece about the 56 Fiery Sermon; he just posted at bl.com in regard our discussion here this morning.
So from Adrian Rogers son to the Duke author of the 56 Criswell treatise we have broken some ground this morning on the 1980 Roundtable. Some light and I hope more to come.
Steve,
I have no doubt you are a force for good when not encumbered with kudzu.
CB…did you know that the Kudzu plant was so named because it grew fast and furiously and overtook Southeastern United States in which it grows? In fact, that’s part of why it’s also been called “the vine that ate the South”. Interesting, isn’t it? selahV
SelahV,
You don’t understand. You are a Yankee. How could you understand?
We hate Kudzu down here in Dixie. It is not native to the Southland. It is not even native to the United States.
It was sent among us just like you Yankees and we ain’t got over it since.
CB…I may be a Yankee, but curiosity got the better of me and I had to google “kudzu”. I read where it over-took the South, my friend. And I also read where it was a foreign plant from Japan and China and made its way into America’s homeland. Kudzu so intrigues me that I am now writing a post for my site about it. There is a lot of ways a Kudzu parable can be interpreted, CB.
If you’re of the mind…stop over to my site tomorrow and eat your fill. Today’s post is already up from the wee hours of the morning–Saved and Certain. But anyone with a hangover from this addictive venue of blogging, may well appreciate what it says and may enjoy tomorrow’s post also
Long live “Kudzu”…selahV 
CB…the present administration usually only speaks to issues that get 24-7 news play. That little church doesn’t seem to have many folks in its corner. selahV
And Hariette and CB before my invocation of Kudzu as an attempt at self deprecation takes a sour twist,
I do want to enter into the record two references that have caught my attention over the years and I highly recommend.
The Novel Cousins to the Kudzu which in my mind I associate with Jerry Vines and Newt Gingrich because it was written in the early 80′s by a proff at West Georgia which was Jerry Vines Stompin Grounds and where Newt Gingrich taught for a good while.
And Two the collection of Essays Cathedrals of Kudzu by Hal Crowther; which along with his Collection Gather at The River is a great antidote to a Jesse Helms mentality that pervades too much of our region like Kudzu.
Stephen, thanks for sharing. selahV
Maybe as this winds down toward something resembling closure we are back close to where it started; at least the good will effort of Hariette and many others on this matter toward some bottom line sensibility:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/john-mcwhorter/77216/barack-obama-muslim-public-opinion-racial-fear-paranoia-islamaphobia
Now here is a mystery: there is a ‘report’ (veracity ????? I don’t have a clue) out there.
Is this report the TRUTH or is it not true?
And if it IS the truth, do the questions about the mosque need to be re-visited by Christian people, in the light of this strange connection?
http://s-data.current.com/news/92623023_fox-news-co-owner-funded-ground-zero-mosque-imam-report.htm
Anyone out there know anything about this?
Christiane, Stephen alluded to it yesterday, but we didn’t have a link. Quite a story. Will be interested to see where it leads. Right now, anything I could say would be pure speculation. As I said to Stephen yesterday, don’t know that the conspiracy is quite yet uncovered enough for me to write a book about it. Thanks again for the link.
Part of the reason for my post was to deflect some of the heated debates being touted on the networks (all of them). Which is why I believe Christians need to keep their heads about this when saying what their hearts feel.
In the final analysis, I do believe we Christians would do well to remember Paul’s warning that we do not battle against flesh and blood, but principalities, realms of darkness…” This is not about political conspiracies or mogul capitalism (which that Islamic extremists detest). It is about watching what we say, how we say it, and discerning what is in the best interests of the conversations the Most High God wants to use us to magnify His Son, Jesus.
Grace be yours.
selahV
AMEN, Selah.
I appreciate your work here.
CB,
I read about that. There are apparently reasons .. like that spot, their old location, being on some government’s list as a place they want to put something. The mosque apparently isn’t.
And I hate eminent domain anyway, most especially stuff like this.
You ask why the administration hasn’t spoken out? Like, that’s a surprise? Eminent domain isn’t the only thing I don’t like.
A fascinating story we could learn from is here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-fuchs-kreimer/park51-should-not-be-comp_b_690452.html
Dreyfus is interesting too. 140 years later and the French still haven’t settled it.
Christiane, you and Hariette may want to look tnr.com site aswell forsome other twists and religion dispatches.
Here is the window to Dreyfus for you deep students on this matter
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-p-gushee/americas-dreyfus-case_b_690908.html
Baptists own David Gushee by way of Mohler’s Southern, Dockery’s Union and now Underwood’s Mercer.
Nope…don’t do Huffington for anything. ever. selahV
Selah, I’m laughing because I feel the same way about FOX.
Christiane, difference between you and me…I’m not laughing. selahV
Selah, you will laugh once you see this.
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/08/24-1
Well, Christiane, now, I’m really not in the mood to follow anymore links, today. Perhaps tomorrow. selahV
Selah, I just read your blog and I am so sorry. My prayers are with you and your family today. God bless you and keep you close.
http://selahvtoday.typepad.com/selahv/2010/08/thirtynine-years-later-i-still-remember.html
Christa Brown now has her sites on Newt Gingrich and the Cordoba Mosque.
It didn’t register with me till this morning she was a PHD candidate in Religious Studies at Illif in Denver. I also see where she is a fan of Russell Banks. If I were doing a profile in the New Yorker about her, I woulda hoped she could explore Banks The Sweet Hereafter as maybe a window into her motivations, but at this point we just don’t know if she is as enamored of its insights and mysteries as she is Affliction.
I know Continental Drift haunted me in the early 80′s.
Her listing of The DAvince Code on her blog best books column is something of a Mild Red Flag; would be interested to see her blog on that.
She has a full plate for sure; I do hope she can look at the Diarmand MacCulloch book.
I do hope she doesn’t get a spot on Larry King panel or PBS Newshour on this matter to take on Newt. There are much better folks to do that.
DAvid Gushee and his column on the Dreyfuss Affair at Huff Post comes to mind first. I would imagine Gushee has mastered the wisdom of Kimball’s book, and could compare Newt’s fundamentalism from his short stay in the SBC, to Gushee and Carey Newman’s short stay at Southern Seminary with Mohler under the Covenant of 94
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16583
At same time if it could be made distinct from her other crusades I give her strong thumbs up on this column on Newt.
It gives me a different and better understanding or her concerns.
I do wish she coulda worked in a line in there about the lessons of the Movie Freedom Writers, and the dark shadows of nativism and the worst instincts of a Lee Atwater like Populism Newt is taunting.
It was an evil thing Newt did with his statement last week, the worst sort of political calculating and Christa has pointed that out well.
If she followsup I hope she calls his former Pastor and SBC leader Ike Reighard into the conversation, even Charles Stanley and his son Andy.
I guess Ben Cole can pick it up from here.
Stephen, I think I’m beginning to catch your drift. Maybe I’m wrong. But you seem to enter a stream and float out to the middle, and then simply lob your own agendas and write your own post within each post. While some of the talking heads, and others ranting, are some of the players in this debacle of a mosque being built and protested at Ground Zero, “seem” to point to the topic of this post; they are not the point. You are still missing the entire point and focus of the post–no matter how many times I point it out to you. You, my new-found friend in blogtown, are doing the same thing that talking heads are doing on television–indeed other blogs. You are standing on the other side of their streets and tossing stones as lethal and inciting and disturbing as any they may lob. It is time to put down the stones, Stephen. Do you not understand that?
Do you think for a New York minute I could not have added at minimum–twenty links that have an opposing viewpoint and reveal the hearts and minds of those you and Christiane so speedily Google-up to make some point that has nothing…absolutely NOTHING…to do with the point of my post? I’m not that stupid, Stephen…I can google, too. I can add fodder to the fire also…the point is that our lives as Christians compel us to chew on that fodder, swallow it if need be…because someday, my friend–it will all be burned away in the purification of our very souls. All that will be worth anything of anything we have done will remain. Only the gold that the tortured, mocked, rejected, crucified Lord Jesus Christ seeks from us as His set-apart, sanctified, and justified, and redeemed–will be left behind. Do you not get this? All else is hay and stubble. All of it. All the time we spend looking at the whys of yesterday, all the words we write negatively about the whos of yesterday. All of it. Straw that will be consumed with the blink of our Savior’s eyes. Christ has more for me to do than read all the rants and ravings, conspiracies, and pure junk.
I’m done, my friend. Have at it. This is a free stream for all the consciences who seek to continue to add their fodder. Who want to bait, hook, and release. I have more to write about…and it involves Jesus…my Savior and Lord. He has me pop onto the SBC Voices site every now and then, by the grace afforded me by the owner, Tony Kummer. This banter is not my forte’. When minds are so fueled by ideology and personal viewpoints, and embedded in the link-lines of secular verbosity, and so anchored to the world’s grip, it is impossible for me to steer their boats for them. I tried, through my original post, to provide a “breath of fresh air” for the sails of men…only Christ can do that. Tis why I’m grateful for SelahV Today. I enjoy the peaceful waters and the gentle streams. I enjoy sitting there fishing for the souls of men, women and sometimes children. I enjoy tossing out a bucket of bait without any hooks at all. I know that there, the fish will eat and grow anyway–and hopefully, other fisherman who sit silently on my banks will have a bit to feed the five thousand they know. I provide no distracting links that lead to another’s divisiveness. Just whatever the Lord feeds me. I share it with others. Come by some time.
God bless you, dear Stephen. May His light be ever-present before you. And may His abundance of blessings be yours in days ahead. selahV
Stephen, her web site is beautiful.
Hariette, You may like this poem by Mary Oliver.
It is possible that Christianne and I have discussed it before:
Maybe, my Mary Oliver:
http://members.cox.net/mppowers1/maybe.html
Especially the line: “You know how it is when Something Different Crosses the Threshhold.”
And maybe if we had shared dinner at a Sacred Harp singing, your estimation of me woulda been a little more rounded.
For what’s its worth the Mosque topic as you have noticed has a pretty strong flame going already. It woulda caught fire here I think it is safe to assume whether I ever made a peep or not.
For what it’s worth, yesterday I discussed with my sister your phrase one man’s wit is another man’s arrogance. That’s pretty strong whether original or borrowed, it’s strong.
And the floating out to the middle rubric; that’s pretty good too.
We may have blog exchange middle of September or after.
Till then, all the best.
Baptists Woman preacher with a Muslim Church Staffer
Could be JoeB’s worst nightmare.
I thought about taking a pass on this one but figured the news would get around soon enough so thought I’d go ahead and see where it goes here.
Could make my top three articles on this whole matter, with Gushee in at Two and The Mere One from RD or TNR the bottom line Numero Uno:
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5641/9/
And here is PROOF that you believe that a muslim can go to heaven.
See, the reaction of a Christian to something like this would be “She has a muslim on her church staff? How can she do that and call herself a Christian?” A Christian would be concerned because obviously this woman has not shared the gospel with her muslim staffer.
You, on the other hand, celebrate this because you believe people can go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Christ alone, which is why you are not a Christian.
Oh, and my anti-spam word was “Snarf”. Just kidding
Well, about the anit-spam word, not about you not being a Christian.
Fox,
ANY Christian should have a serious problem with this.
Brandon, you want to think about how Christ would react to the kindness shown to a ‘stranger in a strange land’.
Take ANOTHER look at the DETAILS of how this man was treated by Christians. I think you will get my point.
And yes, I am very aware of why Joe B. would freak out.
Joe has problems with other Christians to the point where he freaks out. But there exists Christian people who have a heart for those strangers among us who are different, and see them not as stereotypes, but as people to be cared for in the Name of Christ.
If someone didn’t share the gospel with him, that salvation is exclusively found only by faith in Christ and repentance from sin, then maybe they can put a check by their “Good Deed for the Day” box on their little list but they did the man no enternal good whatsoever. Because no matter how you want to mock the gospel or twist the gospel, the gospel is not a person.
The gospel is that God is holy, righteous, and justly offended by our sin. Jesus Christ came and bore the penalty of that sin by dieing on the cross. His resurrection three days later proves that He was God incarnate and that God accepted His sacrafice. Only those who repent of their sins and trust Christ alone to save them (and no, He won’t save anybody without them realize He is doing the saving) will go to heaven.
That is the gospel. You won’t hear that from Wade, Debbie, or any of the moderates.
Suck it up and deal with it.
We’re gonna outreach like its 1959!!!!
Joe Blackmon probably even uses the FAITH method which begins by establishing your rapport with a person by lying to their face before sharing the gospel to them.
Great way to establish trust and model Christianity.
Well, I have plenty of problems with that method. But it’s way better than your team’s version of the gospel “Love God, love people, that’s all Jesus said”.
I’m sure no one has ever spelled it out for you, but that’s the law, not the gospel. Oh, and no one is going to be saved by Jesus without realizing that it’s Him doing the saving.
L’s,
The man is not a “stranger” to Amy Butler. To say such is foolish. He is a lost man on his praying-five-times-a-day-to-a-false-demonically-driven-and-empowered-god way to hell, who works in her office.
His lostness is evident. Will she or will she not tell him the truth is the question.
Hey, cb, come on now. The gospel is a person–it’s not like some statement of truth that tells us how to be right with God. After all, if we’re sincere enough, God just HAS to accept us–unless we’re conservatives, then we’re of the devil. I mean, love God, love people, and everything’ll be ok. You know, faith trumps belief and all that. [/sarcasm[
At least, that’s what the believe in Enid.
“-a-false-demonically-driven-and-empowered-god”
I never thought of the God of Abraham in this way before.
I don’t believe it’s true.
Hi C.B.,
I know where it is you are coming from, and you know I come from a very different place. Where I am from, we are all ‘strangers in a strange land’, C.B.
And the only signpost to help us is the Cross of Christ.
Next time you read your Bible, think of this, and you might begin to understand the people who don’t come from that place where you come from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POm7_WBMJTI&feature=related
L’s,
You are right. It is true that you, L’s, are a stranger, not to this world, but to the household of God. The reason you are a stranger is because you only have religion and nothing more.
L’s, religion will: give you a head full of knowledge, a heart full of emptiness” and an eternity full of hell.
On the other hand, I am a sojourner in this land, but not a stranger to the household of God. The reason I am not a stranger to the household of God is:
“But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the Blood of Christ….so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.”
See L’s, you are a stranger to the household of God because you depend on religion.
I am not a stranger to the household of God because I depend on the Blood of Christ.
That’s the difference between us L’s.
L’s, My poor, poor, lost, friend L’s,
How can you for one moment believe the god of Islam is the Mighty God, Elohim, the Creator of all things, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, the Provider of the Blood Atonement, whose children call Him Savior?
Here is the difference L’s.
There is One God. That One God is: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. He is the only God of Scripture.
The god of Islam is like unto the many gods whose origin is of hell, a spore impregnated by Satan into the hearts and minds of fallen and depraved men to lead those who would sacrifice at their alters to a torment in hell everlasting where the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies.
The god of Islam is a son of Satan and brother to Baal, Molech, Diana and Issis.
If you knew the God of Abraham and Father of the Christ, you would know the difference.
Steve,
I read the article. I realize the Muslim is a clerical worker and not in a ministry position and may not be in any involvement with the staff other than answering the phone, but here is the question.
Do you believe Amy Butler will share with the fellow that the practice of Islam is a highway to Hell and that eternal life is only in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Or do you believe she will remain proud of her inclusiveness and never tell the man the truth?
Maybe at the heart of this post, lies the question ‘how should Christian people inter-act with their Muslim neighbors in a way that promotes the image of Lord Christ in that interaction?
I think that Hariette (Selah V) has tried to promote that question in her writing here.
What do Muslim people see, when they encounter the different faces of people who proclaim to follow Lord Christ?
Whatever ‘forces’ are at work in the controversy over building that mosque, some may, of course, be those that want to reveal Christians in a way that is not representative of Our Lord as He was with people when He was among us.
It is extremely important that Christian people do not allow themselves to be drawn into the kind of behaviors that do not honor Our Lord in their witness before the watching Islamic world.
Thanks, Christiane…it’s nice to read that someone “gets” what I’m getting at. selahV
L’s,
Honestly, do you believe that those of the Islamic faith are condemned to hell unless they repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel?
Have you ever worked closely enough with those who follow Islam that you were able to share the truth of the gospel with them and let them know that without Christ they were lost and hopeless in their quest for eternal life as a Muslim?
It is extremely important to know the gospel and be a Christian before one is concerned with what a Muslim thinks of Christians in any way.
CB…that is one of the most important things I’ve ever read from you. After hearing Afshin Ziafat at our church last Sunday, I came to an incredible realization and they need to know about Jesus. Muslims think Jesus was a prophet like Mohammed. the even respect that he was a prophet. But that is as far as it goes. They need to know that Jesus is our God, not a good teacher who did good things. Muslims think they die and stand at heaven’s gate and a literal scale weighs their good and their bad and which ever has the most weight is what gets them into heaven. Heaven is not contingent upon our righteousnes–but Christ’s–and it took Jesus to make us righteous. Why so many folks do not see that is beyond me. Truly. selahV
Well, actually, CB—the most valuable of readings I have stored in my treasure box was when you explained how very important the blood of Christ was–the power in it. That was the most important thing I’ve read. wish you’d start a blog again. selahV
I may, in the future, start another blog SelahV.
I might name it:
MERCS FOR JESUS
Would you like to be a contributor?
evensong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCvwMjd502A
The gospel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZuVt7qWO80
IN CHRIST ALONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8welVgKX8Qo
Joe,
A-Men. To know the gospel and make the gospel known.
So Barry King, from London, England, is one of my facebook friends. And I happened to read his comments on the Mosque controversy and said I sure wish he’d have come to Voices and joined the conversation here. He said , maybe next time. So he’s having his own tiny facebook banter on the subject and of course, as is the nature of Facebook, most folks agree with him. Barry sorta said similar things that I did, but as you know, Facebook is adamant about succinctness. I asked Barry if I could quote him and he said I could. So here is what he said in three separate entries:
I went to school with Barry. He is a great pastor.
Jeff T….really? small world, huh? I was honored when he “friended” me out of the blue. love his spirit. selahV
CB:
You said to L’s:”L’s,
You are right. It is true that you, L’s, are a stranger, not to this world, but to the household of God. The reason you are a stranger is because you only have religion and nothing more.
L’s, religion will: give you a head full of knowledge, a heart full of emptiness” and an eternity full of hell.
On the other hand, I am a sojourner in this land, but not a stranger to the household of God. The reason I am not a stranger to the household of God is:
“But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the Blood of Christ….so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.”
See L’s, you are a stranger to the household of God because you depend on religion.
I am not a stranger to the household of God because I depend on the Blood of Christ.
That’s the difference between us L’s”
Please and I say please quit judging L’s soul, that is not your job.
Tom, why don’t you try sharing the gospel with her? If she cannot articulate the gospel and doesn’t know what the gospel is she cannot possibly have believed the gospel. CB is obviously concerned about her eternal soul. He is doing exactly what he should be doing—telling her how she can be right with God.
So let me get this straight, you blather endlessly about the demise of the satellite broadcasting statio int he Bold Mission Thrust but you don’t want people to share the gospel with L’s? In that case, I’m glad the Bold MIssion Thrust was done away with–your side wouldn’t have used that satellite to share the gospel anyway.
Tom Parker,
I have not judged the soul of L’s. L’s has over and over again confessed her lostness in comment thread after comment thread.
Tom Parker, do you believe a person can be saved by good works, adhering to Canon Law and dependance on the Seven Sacraments?
If not, then you must also pray earnestly for the soul of L’s, rather than to give her a false hope by valuing a political correctness over the gospel of Jesus.
JoeB:
Why doesn’t Tom or somebody on this board share the Gospel with you.
You need to get Saved, Brother; I mean really.
1) Moderates don’t share the gospel. Their version of the gospel is “Love God, love people, that’s what Jesus said”.
2) Can a person go to heaven without repenting of their sin and trusting Christ alone to save them? For instance, can that muslim gentleman that you bragged about at your heroine’s church in DC go to heaven wthout renouncing his muslim faith and trusting Jesus or is Jesus alreadying saving him and he doesn’t realize it?
Hey Joe: What part of this is Not the Gospel?
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16587
And have you read the comments at the ABP story on Amy and Mohammed? There are about 8 so far and counting.
Get Low is in a Theatre near you this weekend. Take the family to see it.
Steve,
I have read the comments in the comment thread of the Butler post.
I especially liked this one:
“As our fearless leader Barack Hussein Obama says, “So, I’m rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”
Unfortunately, for a lot of broad-minded Baptists, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
That means some folks are going to go to hell, unless we share Christ with them and the Holy Spirit brings them to new life in Christ.”
What evidence, CB, Do you see of a New Life in Christ in the witness of Joe Blackmon as you have experienced him here at SBC Voices.
I don’t think Dogma is the key sign, as I read my New Testament of a New Life in Christ.
I disagree with, for instance, lot of the ideology of John Killian of the Maytown Baptist Church. I may be even that his distant relative, Boston Killian, as a former Mayor of Collinsville was an antagonist of my Grandfather when My Grandfather ran as a Lincoln Republican for Supe of Ed for the Dekalb County Schools in the Nineteen teens.
But Killian and I haven’t been able to determine that yet.
Though Killian and I have our differences on the SBC TAkeover, the first 11 chapters of Genesis, George Wallace and about every other social issue I can think of; I have worshipped in Killian’s Church at Maytown, talked with him in his Office, heard him Preach at 2nd Baptist Ft Payne Alabama (thought none of the Brethren called on me to pray (lol)); I have seen evidence of Killian’s salvation and I’m satisfied that he is in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
In a way a great ecumenical point of grace on both our parts.
Killian, by virtue of his invitation to speak at Judson, is already on the Slippery Slope of at some point engaging the thinking of Charles Kimball. Killian and I both have friends at http://www.bcoc.net .
The Bible Says the Wind blows wherever it will, and in the end it is not you or JOe Blackmon’s determination who answers the call on the great gettin up mornin.
When Jim Henry’s daughter sings Kris Kristofferson’s song My God They Killed Him, about Jesus Christ, MLKing, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi; my point is she doesn’t leave out Mahatma Gandhi.
So even though he didn’t get the Pressler appointment in the lineage of SBC Presidents, nor did Frank Page; you may want to ask Henry and Page about what Kate is gettin at when she sings that song.
And as a postscript. there were other comments atABP in addition to the ones you pointed out.
PS2; Would be good if we could rewind to the moment Pinnock dismissed Marney as a Liberal when Pinnock past his student Jerry Vines and all drinking coffee at NOBTS in 67 or so to see if Pinnock and Marney had a word for us and Amy here. In the meantime maybe Samford will hold a panel, maybe even show Parham’s Common Word documentary this fall and you and Dr.Killian can go deeper there.
If by chance you do, and they call on one of you to pray, do Pray for Joe Blackmon and his eternal destiny.
Steve,
If you will recall, I have not once, but on more than one occasion confirmed my belief that you are a Follower of Christ. In addition, we have discussed why I believe you are a Believer. Yet, I realize we differ on many issues, no doubt.
I also believe there is within you, as within me, a “glimmer of the gremlin” who enjoys raggin’ on hapless victims from time-to-time, in the tradition of former Southern Sages who sat at country stores and drank Cokes, smoked cigars and chewed tobacco and waxed bold to the joy or distain of passing customers who stopped by the wood stove where they [Southern Sages] were holding court.
BTW, I would be honored for you to stop and fellowship among the flock of whom I now serve and after I preach the gospel, I will be more than honored to ask you to pray the benediction.
As to Joe Blackmon; Well, I have read Joe’s comments here and elsewhere and I have read his blog from time-to-time and he has never failed to proclaim the gospel according to the Scripture when it has been his chosen subject. Yes, he is rough as peach seeds traveling through the digestive system of a small puppy, but he is non-compromising of the gospel nonetheless.
I respect Joe’s grit as I do yours. I realize he considers you to be a depraved infidel and you consider him to be an unwashed Cretan, but if I were on my way to a hard gunfight today, I would consider either or both of you to be valuable company.
That is, if I could keep you from shooting one another before we for to our assigned field of battle.
Joe Blackmon:
You’re method of saving people does not work, you have no heart at all. You drive people away with your hot and hateful words.
You love to use the word “moderates” as a condemnatory word, but you are only condemning yourself by the way you present yourself to others.
Joe,
I have a question for you.
Do you have, as Tom Parker has suggested, a “method of saving people”?
That is news to me, for I had the impression that you believed salvation was only in Christ alone.
I don’t know of any “method” of saving anyone other than if they repent of their sins and trust Christ’s to save them based on His death on the cross. Could he prehaps be talking about some sort of evangelistic method?
Prehaps Joe, Tom is talking about the evidence. If I met you on the street and you came across like you come across on this board, thinking I had encountered a Christian would be the furthrest thing on my mind; I’d be thinking more like where did that Son of A, Son of A….I wouldn’t be thinkin you were a Child of God is what I’m trying to say.
Well, considering that you don’t believe the gospel as preached by Christ, Paul, and revealed in the inerrant word of God you’d have about as much of a chance of knowing what a Christian is as I would of betting Jeff Gordon in a race with me running flat footed and him driving.
That should say “beating” not “betting”
Who knows Joe?
You know how Tom gets when he is at his most wretched “Trifling Slankning”, all bowed-up self, slanging snot and yelling at us with pasted comment after pasted comment.
A little paste here, a little paste there. You know how Tom Parker is, Joe. He gets beside himself at times. I think it comes from looking at spread sheets all day long or gradin’ papers and stuff.
Tom Parker,
Do you believe the god of Islam is a false,demonically driven and empowered god?
Or, do you believe as L’s does that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
CB, I think the point is that in the Crucifixion of Jesus, His Death and Resurrection; the way Christ would then have us a view the world as God dying with the Son and then Resurrected in New Form; then maybe the sifnificance you place on the God of Abraham to distinguish you from other faith traditions, may be mistaken, or need some work on it.
Your emphasis is misplaced, possibly. Just workin through this in light of Diamand MacCulloch, the Apostle Paul and his segment on the Masters of Suspicion.
No Steve,
The God of Abraham is the Mighty I Am who was and is before Abraham was. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is the unchanging, all sovereign Holy God. He is the One God.
The god of Islam is not the God of Abraham, nor is he the Father of The Son who died on the cross, was buried and rose on the third day.
The god of Islam is not the God of the Resurrection. He is not the God who leads us through the valley of death without fear.
The god of Islam leads those who follow through the valley of death into everlasting fear in the fires of hell.
I am sad CB that you didn’t make it out to Samford when Martin Accad as a guest of the Southern Baptist Covention of the State of Alabama was in town to discuss these matters with Tom Corts, Bob Terry, Rick Lance and friends.
Maybe you can see the Common Word with them this fall.
You did see the link to the testimony of Sayyid Syeed a few comments back didn’t you.
In the room is the brother in law of Billy Graham’s daughter, Anne Graham Lotz; her brother in law Denton.
That’s the back of his head in the closing shot of the clip if I am not mistaken.
Do seek out Rick Lance, Brad Creed at Samford and Bob Terry to be sure I didn’t misunderstand Martin Accad when he was the guest of the Alabama Baptist Convention.
And do see the clip and give us your take on it.
CB: The clip for you here; I don’t want you to miss it:
Click and play the clip:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076#clips
Steve,
I am shortly headed out toward Montgomery. One of my sons is playing football there tonight at the Cramton Bowl. If, by chance, I run into Rick Lance, I’ll tell him you said hello.
Steve,
There is no common ground between Muslims and Christians.
Christians are the children of God. Muslims are not the children of God. Muslims are of their father the Devil. There is no commonality between the two for one has not experienced the eternal birth from above.
Yet, there is common ground between all human beings born once on this earth.
That common ground is that all human beings are lost before a just and righteous God.
Therefore, all human beings are condemned already to Hell. But God has demonstrated His own love toward human beings, in that even though we are lost before a just and righteous God, Christ died for us.
Therefore, if any human being does recognize his lostness before a just and righteous God and repents and believes the biblical gospel, those human beings who do so shall be justified by the Blood of Jesus and shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Therefore, there is hope for Muslims just as there is for any human being who will recognize his lost condition before Holy God.
God’s holy prophet, John the Beloved Apostle recorded the exact words of Jesus to all human beings:
“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.”
Therefore, any Muslim, Jew, Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pagan, or Cretan who will hear the gospel, repent and believe the biblical gospel can have in common a citizenship in the heavenlies purchased by the Blood of Christ.
I think Rick Lance and most of the Humanities Dept at Samford and Judson disagree with you on that CB Scott.
I think we need to find out, don’t you.
If most of the SBC agrees with you on this matter and your rhetoric about it; then I would hope Gary Fenton and Dawson Memorial start sending their Cooperative Program Dollars some where else real soon.
Steve,
If most of the SBC disagrees with me on this it means I have wasted much money sending it to Lottie and Annie.
Frankly, I would doubt Fenton will disagree with me on this. And if he does, something is wrong with him, not me.
What of it do you disagree Steve?
CB; I thought you were going to the Cramden Bowl about two hours ago. I hope your son has a good game tonight.
Hoover is on national tV tomorrow at noon on ESPN vs a team my alma mater, GHS used to School routinely with the great Sidney Rice.
This afternoon I caught a good bit of Nick Saban’s training camp on ESPN, pretty interesting.
Add Nick Saban to the list of folks who I think would resist naming half the world’s believer as something other than the sons of Abraham.
How about the Jews? Are they less than the Sons of God as well? I guess you agree with Bailey Smith God does not hear their prayers either. Do find out at what point Gary Fenton says God is listening to the prayers of others outside your Tradition.
And ask Rick Lance as well.
Joey Kennedy, a Baptist Believer, ought to do a column on you for the Bham News Soon.
Other than that, as always
Peace and Love
Sfox
This post is about a Mosque being built at Ground Zero in NYC.
That Mosque may or may not be built. Who knows?
But this I do know. There is only one way to peace with God. That one way is by faith in the atoning work of God’s Only Son, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, any and all who name the Name of Jesus as Lord must be about the Great Commission and make disciples, teaching those disciples all things as did Jesus teach while on earth and as He has preserved it in His Word.
Jesus declared that he was the only way to everlasting life and that all other ways were the ways that lead to destruction and hell.
So anyone who would teach that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham or:………”there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people” are teaching that which is a lie of Satan and are applauding political correctness as multitudes upon multitudes travel the way of the damned.
CB…amen…preach Jesus, proclaim Jesus…and let the protestors protest as is within their right to protest in America–(unlike in Islamic countries–in those you are stoned, buried in the dirt, and lose appendages, and are imprisoned for daring to believe in the God of Abraham, the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ).
God will build His church, increase His church, and someday He will return to claim His bride. And in the field of decision, Jesus the Christ–the King of Kings, will take out His scythe and gather those who are His from the earth. And the rest will bathe in the blood as deep as a horses shoulders. Until then, we must do all we can to live a life that not only shows the Light and provides the Salt to a darkened world and a tasteless life. We share the Gospel, we sow seeds (Kudzu is great), and then we let our Lord water and bring forth the fruit of His Vine. selahV
Stephen Fox:
You asked CB:”What evidence, CB, Do you see of a New Life in Christ in the witness of Joe Blackmon as you have experienced him here at SBC Voices.”
I also look forward to CB’s answer as it appears to me Joe Blackmon is stuck in the very early books of the OT.
Tom…Joe is incorrigible at times with his snarky remarks. He’s come by my site now and then and knows where I stand on that. However–he holds up Jesus as foremost the keys to heaven’s gates. He professes Christ wherein I rarely see others who have big opinions and big ideas, revealing and hidden agendas on blogsites–profess. While I totally disagree with his imperfections and pontifications, I realize humanity is imperfect (especially in the world’s viewpoint), but we have a perfect Savior who died to make us righteous. Joe is covered in the blood, the same as others whom I disagree with from time to time.
I don’t know Tom…are you covered in the blood? All I’ve ever heard from you is anti-any argument or apologetic I’ve read. Do you know Jesus as Savior and Lord? Do you love him with all your heart? I have admonished dear Joe on many occasion. I keep praying for him. Do you? selahV
Hariette:
Strong phrase, valent, revenant “covered in the Blood”.
Have you seen the Movie There Will Be Blood
A version of your phrase is strong there with the Preacher boy.
Would be an interesting blog if Matt Svodoba or you want to take it up here some time; all the implications and reverberations for an aspect of the SBC story of the last 40 years.
I confess I digress, but thought I would give you a shout out, as Sara Palin says.
Steve,
I saw the movie twice. The concept of Covered in the Blood in the movie fails to convey the same application as it does when SelahV uses it here.
There is a difference when lost movie script writers use the “words of Zion” vs. Born again, washed soundly, covered completely, Blood bought saints of God like SelahV use them!!!
Can I get an A-Men, there Brother?
You can get an Amen to the fact you saw it twice.
I am itchin to say a lot more but fear getting blamed for some serious thread drift.
It is a rich topic; the movie and its implications. Of course I see a lot of portends of Criswell in the movie.
Maybe Matt S will give you a guest blog shot or you and Hariette can duo a blog at this site and we can go from there.
I will give you an Amen for passion for the concept of the Blood of Jesus that washes away the Sins of the World.
As for the Blood of There Will Be Blood, the Movie; that’s where I’m holding out for a Specific discussion.
And for connotations of the word specific, or good use of the term, see the Poet in opening scene of The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford; whose book author,Ron Hansen, I might add,for Christianne, did a wondrous job with stigmata in Mariette in Ecsasty.
Stephen, Stephen, Stephen; would that you spent as much time in the Word as you do these places you seem so desireous of others to travel. I may get the movie if I can find it because CB saw it twice. But my heart grieves that you could not “Amen” that which CB asked you to “amen”.
The blood of Jesus is far more important to any discussion than any other blood on earth. For if it were not for the shedding of Jesus’ blood, we’d have no reason to bother existing. Indeed, if not for the blood–the perfect blood sacrifice–shed as payment for the sin of all humanity–we’d have no reason to cherish being born into this world at all.
His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness. His blood. His sacrifice. His obedience. His love. Wow…what a love our Father in Heaven has for us. Praise His Holy Name! selahV
Hariette, Hariette:
I did Amen, CB. I was trying to make a distinction between the Blood of Jesus and his take on the Movie which I think as a matter of Blog Etiquette and Aesthetic deserves or calls for it’s own topic.
Back to the matter at hand, or the direction it has taken in the last couple days, Amy Butler and her church staffer.
As translated by some here and some of her detractors at ABPnews, I think a grand Baptist Framing is done with the help of another Muslim Sayyid Syeed in this testimony here at the Sacred Ground of Andover Newton which has a strong story for CB and Alabama with one of its presidents Herbert Gezork; but that for another time as well.
Here the Grand tribute to Baptists from a Grand Muslim:
Click and play the clip:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076#clips
Stephen, thanks for the “shout out”. Have you ever read the prophet Joel’s words in Joel 3:12–21? Powerful stuff. I think I’ll write on that first.
“Let the nations bestir themselves and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the [vintage] havest is ripe; come, get down and tread the grapes, for the winepress is full; the vats overflow, for the wickedness [of the peoples] is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.” Joel 3:12-14
Then if you’re a mind to, flip on over to Mark 4: 29 and read what Jesus Himself said: “But when the grain is ripe and permits, immediately he “sends forth [the reapers] and puts in the sickle, because the harvest stands ready.”
And someone might ask “ready”? “ready” for what?
Then I’d say, I’m glad you asked. Flip on over to Revelation 14:14 and see what the exiled Apostle John said that the Lord said: “Again I looked, and behold, a white cloud One resembling the Son of Man [Jesus the resurrected Son of God that the Jews crucified and laid in the grave] with a crown of gold on His head and a sharp scythe in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple sanctuary, calling with a mighty voice to Him Who was sitting upon the cloud, Put in Your scythe and reap, for the hour has arrived to gather the harvest, for the earth’s crop is fully ripened.
So He Who was sitting upon the cloud swung His scythe on the earth, and the earth’s crop was harvested. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he also carried a sharp scythe. And another angel came forth from the altar, who has authority and power over fire, and he called with a lud cry to him who had the sharp scythe. Put forth your scythe and reap the fruitage of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are entirely ripe. So the angel swung his scythe on the earth and gathered the vintage from the vines of the earth and cast it into the huge winepress of God’s wrath. And the grapes in the winepress were trodden outside the city, and the blood poured from the winepress, reaching as high as horses’ bridles, for a distance of 1,600 stadia (about 200 miles). Revelation 14: 14-20. (words bracketed are mine for clarification).
Stephen, THAT is a lot of blood. Pity the people [grapes] that do not make the decision to live their lives for Jesus before they stand in the “valley of decision”, huh? selahV
Huh, Huh What?
I think the verse is calling on Joe Blackmon to turn from his Wicked ways, his Constant bullying; to see the truths that God Revealed to Martin King and Oscar Romero and Beyers Naude.
Book of Revelation and the Various Kairos Documents around the World during OUr Lifetime, that’s where the story is Hariette.
The Book of Revelation is Strong Indeed and God Help Us the SBC of Paul Pressler and Jesse Helms stood in silence if not ignorance of the Grand Witness the folks I listed incarnated the screaming imagery of the Book of Revelation.
Tom Parker,
Would you ever be so kind as to answer a question or may two?
Do you believe the god of Islam is a false,demonically driven and empowered god?
Or, do you believe as L’s does that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
BTW Tom Parker, I consider you to be a “trifling slank” and an eye full of Vick’s Salve that one’s Granny misappropriated during a home remedy for a bad cold on a cold November day.
Tom Parker, if you have trouble understanding that description of you, ask Steve. He has read Ron Rash and Flannery O’ Conner. He can explain it to you as well as I.
CB:
You said to me:”Tom Parker,
Would you ever be so kind as to answer a question or may two?”
I will answer one–I believe John 14:6.
Know please answer the question that Stephen and I asked about Joe Blackmon.
Tom: Just in case the readers who happen across this blogpost do not have a Bible, I’m gonna help them with what John 14:6 means. You see, Muslims are not allowed to read the Bible:
“I am the way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
Praise the Lord. Hallelujah, Tom! Go tell it on the mountains. Drop this message in every post you log onto. May God add His Spirit to that message and fill it with His Spirit to bring some soul to Him. selahV
See Tom Parker,
SelahV, along with a host of others around here do not worship at the alter of political correctness and the gospel of “nice.”
For us, it is the Blood bought Atonement of Christ or it ain’t nothin’.
Now stand up on your hind legs and tell that to everyone you know, you Trifling Slank, you!!
Selahv:
You said:”Tom…Joe is incorrigible at times with his snarky remarks. He’s come by my site now and then and knows where I stand on that. However–he holds up Jesus as foremost the keys to heaven’s gates. He professes Christ wherein I rarely see others who have big opinions and big ideas, revealing and hidden agendas on blogsites–profess. While I totally disagree with his imperfections and pontifications, I realize humanity is imperfect (especially in the world’s viewpoint), but we have a perfect Savior who died to make us righteous. Joe is covered in the blood, the same as others whom I disagree with from time to time.
I don’t know Tom…are you covered in the blood? All I’ve ever heard from you is anti-any argument or apologetic I’ve read. Do you know Jesus as Savior and Lord? Do you love him with all your heart? I have admonished dear Joe on many occasion. I keep praying for him. Do you? selahV”
How do you know Joe Blackmon is covered in the blood? BTW, thanks for questioning my salvation, Joe Blackmon would be extremly proud of you. I see why you like Joe B.
Tom…I wanted to know, Tom if indeed I needed to share the gospel directly with you is why I asked you those things. Joe has told me he is covered in the blood of Jesus because he (Joe) has given his life to Him. (Although God’s still working hard on Joe; indeed, the Lord has given me a pile of sandpaper to try and help grow Joe. Notice, if you will that he never gets upset with me when I tell him to reel in his words. He does apologize. Then he slips right back into the mode when harrassed or sometimes when he isn’t…). “The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me….” Psalm 138:8 Though I have no control over Joe’s actions or words–unless he comments at my moderated site (Joe will tell you I don’t let the devil get a foothold over there), I can pray for him that the Lord will help him. That’s all I can tell ya, Tom.
I wrote above what I thought of what you believe in John 14:6. Praise the Lord. I will never question your salvation now that I know you believe to know Jesus and profess that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and NO ONE comes to the Father in heaven except through Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. I am so grateful to have read those words from you, Tom.
Your sister, saint Hariette. (a.k.a. selahV)
Tom, To ask a question is not to doubt anyone’s salvation. It is to see where they are spiritually!
Tom Parker,
I am glad to “hear” that. Please share the same with L’s and any other lost soul you might encounter in your journey without compromise.
Now, you trifling slank, if you will take note and pay more attention, you will see that I did answer Steve.
BTW, you did not ask me the same question, you stated to Steve that you “looked forward” to my answer to Steve’s question.
What an interesting morning I have had . . . found out my husband who had symptoms, does not have cancer and am deeply in thanksgiving for this blessing.
So perhaps I can be more patient in responses to people I blog with whom I care about.
My own Church respects the good that it finds in all faith traditions and among all people who reach up towards God. There is much good to be found in others, when we don’t practice the demonization and stereotyping of those who are ‘different’ from our own ways.
I can explain our hope for those of other faiths in this way:
“”Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:2528), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4).”
“[About those of other faiths] Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel and given by Him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
We respect that goodness in them. And we can work with them on areas of mutual concern in the world to assist those in need.
Out of that respect, can come a bond with them that permits us to show forth Christ to them in ALL of our ways.
That is a difference from those who would demonize them, yes.
We believe it more closely follows the way of the Lord.
I suppose the difference in viewpoints, about how to bring Our Lord to people, comes from how we see Lord Christ,
and how we interpret the ways in which He wants us to care for one another. If He is the Model for our witness, we will follow Him with all confidence in His example to us. And we will not fall prey to the stereotyping and demonization of those who are not of our kind.
I think GArry Wills, one of the most sensible practioners of your tradition I’m aware of, Christiane, would applaud your sentiments here.
Hi STEPHEN,
I am not familiar with Gary Wills, but my thoughts are framed by my faith tradition, which is not shared by Joe or C.B. as it is not a part of their own understanding, at this time.
Here are some thoughts I once wrote on Wade’s blog when discussing Islam:
“Here is one perspective that is very different
. I will follow the quote with my own comment:
“”in 1991, choosing to write directly to Muslims, John Paul II gave a fuller reference to this text:
“I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria:
‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself.
You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’ Pope Gregory VII written in 1076 A.D.
“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”
John Paul II
MY COMMENT:
In the midst of all the weakness of our hatred and our fear-filled contempt,
there are times when the Word of the Lord, commanding us to ‘love one another’, begins to burn too brightly in our spirits to be extinguished.
And just for a while, we are made strong enough and fear-less enough to reach out.
Sometimes we do.”
I thought you had made a public declaration you were of the Catholic Faith Tradition.
Maybe I am mistaken but I thought you had said as much.
All progressive Catholics in the US I would hope are aware of Garry Wills and Alice McDermott.
I appreciate John Paul’s good will as stated above. In broad generalities Pope JP was right about Communism in Poland, but wrong about Liberation Theology in Latin America, most eggegiously wrong about Oscar Romero.
He was not infallible.
Stephen, I am a Catholic of the Roman rite.
My father’s family has always been Catholic, in America, before that in Canada, and before that in France.
My grandmother, of blessed memory, was a Southern Baptist.
Terms like ‘progressive’ are relative to specifics, so I don’t generalize my opinion to any one ‘label’.
But I do appreciate the encyclicals of John Paul II and of Benedict XVI on social issues tremendously. Have you read any excerpts from them? I think you also would find something in them of meaning to you, from what you have referenced on this blog.
Christiane: I imagine you and some of your extended family will find the following link most interesting.
If I were younger I might wade into some of the Pope’s encyclicals, but as time is short, honestly, keeping track with Wills and McDermott and occasionally what the Kennedy children are saying about the faith–one of Joe’s Daughters had a fascinating book about reform in the church a couple years ago–is about as far as I will go.
Most fascinating post at RD just a couple days ago:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2731/evangelicals_%E2%80%98crossing_the_tiber%E2%80%99_to_catholicism/
Christianne, PTL for the good news on your husband.
Since you are in a good mood, I have to tell you something rather funny that happened today. I went to check my stats on my blog and had four hits from Huffington Post. Is that not funny? So I clicked on their link to see what brought them to me. And I knew I had to confess I’d gone to Huffington since I told you the other day that I didn’t do Huffington…ever.
Have a blessed nite. selahV
Thank you, Selah, I am most grateful to God for the good news.
I didn’t realize that Ariana Huffington was such a controversial figure. Oh well . . . There is so much polarization now. I have never seen this bad, not even during the sixties at the time of the Viet Nam War.
I have prayed for your family this week at this time of remembrance. My thoughts are with you and with them.
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5641/9/
Stephen, I think you will like this article.
CB and Bess, I am wondering how many trial lawyers you know who are concerned with 1 Tim 3?
CB, If Gaines is a believer in inerrancy then why not practice what scripture teaches when you find you have a pedophile minister on staff?
Matt,
You are late to the party on the Butler article. Feel free to catch up. It may be enlightening to you.
Here is a question for you. Do you believe the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
BTW, I answered your question about Gaines on the abused children post. If you missed my answer, go back and read it in the comment thread there.
Matt, please take the “pedophile minister” references back to the other post on abusing children or something. This post is not about that issue. It’s already taken enough taken enough twists and turns to be renamed the Kudzu post of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. Please…don’t drop anymore odd seeds into this stream. Okay?
I’m not mad, just tired of chasing sharks and barracuda in a salmon stream. Okay? 
selahV
Matt: I’ve been making several references to this very link the last couple days here at the Voices; Amy Butler’s story on her staffer at Calvary in DC
Hariette = Just be happy people have decided to comment on your post, “Okay”; instead of telling them what to say, “Okay”.
Jack and Hariette:
Jack, you may want to click over to Hariette’s blog and comment on her Glenn Beck Honor Ralley thoughts.
Will be interested to see what you say there.
I have a comment awaiting moderation there where I recommend she mediate her thoughts by exploring Religion Dispatches reservations about Beck.
Stephen, I have a feeling that you might have seen this,
where Colbert exposes Glenn Beck’s ’9-12 project’ by highlighting comments Glenn Beck made on September 9, 2005:
“This is horrible to say, and I wonder if I’m alone in this,” Beck said on his radio program that day, “you know it took me about a year to start hating the 9/11 victims’ families? I don’t hate all of them. I hate probably about 10 of them. But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I’m just like, ‘Oh, shut up!’ I’m so sick of them because they’re always complaining. And we did our best for them.”
“The 9-12 project is not for families directly affected by 9/11, just people building their careers on it,” Colbert said.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/01/stephen-colbert-rips-apar_n_181673.html
I am clearly not a fan of Glenn Beck ‘in action’.
Christiane, I’m gonna take the liberty of copy and pasting your “off topic” comment here, into my site and giving you my response there.
selahV
Selah, if you wish to do that, I have no objection to it.
I am not a fan of Glenn Beck but I know that he does have many supporters, for many different reasons, not all of them good ones, I’m afraid.
My opinion is my own.
Selah, as regards ‘off-topic’, I am not so sure about that.
The ‘topic’ of the mosque has a definite connection to the reaction of some to 9/11 events.
We all ‘re-acted’.
Then we all re-act to one another’s reactions.
I do see a connection, and so, I must disagree respectfully about ‘off-topic’. A lot of people ‘took advantage’ of the events of 9/11. It’s still happening. There is a ‘market’ for those who will feed the darker angels of our nature.
you L’s,
I know you have a husband and at least one son, so let me ask you a question; How would you “react” if someone took your husband and son out and french-fried them in jet fuel?
Christianne–fine, have at it. It will probably do alot for the point and focus of my post about Christians speaking their minds without inciting the ire of Muslims who might pop in and read this post. Yeah…go for it. selahV
Stephen, How much do I owe you for your personal representation of my writing? You are a funny bird, my Stephen. Your comment was approved within seconds after you posted it. I happened to be at my computer, copy-editing a manuscript. Come back by and see what I wrote to you.
selahV
Christianne, point well taken. Many of Christ’s followers and fans did not follow for all the right reasons either.
My opinion is my own, also. I make up my mind according to my own reasoning, rationale and discernment from the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit. catcha later…selahV
Fair enough, I can certainly respect that.
jack,
Why don’t you go back to defending pedophiles as innocent victims who need to be helped with their awful problem since it’s not really their fault and lay of selahV.
Jack, LOL…that’s funny. Being “happy” with comments makes little sense when comments produce divisiveness–rather than understanding or anything recognizable as edification.
It’s not about me telling them “what to say”, my friend, but what “not to say” in a comment stream that has nothing to do with the post I authored above. Soon I plan to write a post at Voices entitled, OPEN SEASON AT THE POTLUCK BAPTIST BUFFET.
That way folks can banter on and on ad nauseum at about anything their little ol’ hearts desire. “Okay?”
selahV
Sounds great. Now I’d like to know where your blog is on Glen Beck, Mormon, Master Showman, NRA member and money changer. Oh’ I’m an NRA member and I think they made a mistake associating with this idiot.
Jack, lol. Just click on my name above this comment. It will take you to my site. I didn’t describe him quite the way you have, so you may miss the connection in the title. hariette petersen (a.k.a. selahV Today)
I went there and enjoyed the blog but I try not to argue the spirituality involved in any subject as a person is entitled to believe what he wants; and I don’t have the strength now to banter with you. Probably another time when the weather gets worse . Plus Blackmon wants to defend your honor like your not able “Okay”. LOL
Jack, you big woose! ha ha . Sometimes I need a bunch a guys to watch my back for me. I’m an old lady, after all. And I have a hard time reaching for my can, sometimes.
selahV
“can” should be cane. ROFLOL.
“Henrietta” – Blackmon only thinks he’s a “bunch” of guys. Matt Svaboda would have cut you or me off for that “woose” remark but I really understand what you mean. My son just left a while ago as he will give up his pulpit tomorrow for a few reasons but mostly because he refuses to allow bigoted, “club” run people to take control of the scripture and the pulpit He and I have nerves we haven’t come close to using yet. At the moment Glen Beck and this stupid mosque are doing better than he is; but this is not the end of the story.
Jack, ah…”Henrietta”…that was the mis-nomer my school teachers always called me when calling the roll in the morning. And unless, you meant to be facetious, I would guess you didn’t mean to re-name me. This is the very reason I use the moniker SelahV when blogging. Few folks get my name, Hariette, right. Even my new-found buddy, Stephen, who spelled it correctly–failed to spell my last name correctly when he placed my blogsite on Forum-Baptist Life today so folks could all come over and stick a log on the fire. (Stephen, how is google gonna find me if you keep spelling my name wrong?
)
You could be right about the “woose” comment, Jack…if it hadn’t been offered with complete endearment of it’s use. I figured a reasonable man, without any preconceived ire towards me (and one who has probably already realized I have none toward him), would catch my drift.
Oh, but Joe being many men–I have lots of honorable men who stand and protect my flank when it is necessary. Joe and I just recently met–but I do appreciate his support–even if he has a rather provocative way of saying stuff. He is sometimes blunt and other times very sensitive to another’s feelings (which is the opposite) of being blunt. I’ll take the shields from whomever offer them to me. God knows I need someone in this sea of sharks, tiger-fish, and dolphins.
Sorry to hear of your son’s battle. But may God be glorified and others edified with your desire to bring a word of truth to the masses. selahV
“you L’s,
I know you have a husband and at least one son, so let me ask you a question; How would you “react” if someone took your husband and son out and french-fried them in jet fuel?”
I would feel as badly as the families of these people did, C.B.:
Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:
Note: This list is as yet incomplete. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims’ ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.
Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.’s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid
I hope that answers your question, C.B.
C.B. if you want to hate evil, I could understand that.
But if you are into ‘something else’ that involves stereotyping and intolerance, as a reaction to terrorism,
my religion teaches that those things can lead to evil.
I don’t expect you to agree with that, but I would like for you to think about it.
L’s,
It has nothing to do with hate, or intolerance or stereotyping. I has to do with being truthful as to how things really are. It does answer a question L’s, but not the question you would desire.
The list of names simply tells the truth about Islam.
Islamic terrorists killed all of those people and more. They kill people with similar names every day all over the world.
They do it in the name of their god. Islam is a cruel and violent religion. In every nation on earth where Islam id dominant, Christians are openly and legally persecuted. You cannot deny that L’s. It is fact. There are 55 predominately Muslim nations on this planet today. Without exception, in each and every one of those nations, people with names similar to the ones you listed are persecuted and killed in the name of the Islamic god every day.
If Islam is so peaceful, why is not there even one, “just one” Muslim country that will allow freedom of religion and speech?
Intelligence reports reveal (some of it Navy Intelligence L’s. Your husband was Navy right?) that up to 20% of the followers of Islam are of such a radical nature that they are fulling willing to strap on a bomb to their bodies (or those of their children) and give up their own lives in order to kill Christians and Jews. L’s 20% represents 300,000,000 Muslims who hate you and me enough to sacrifice their own lives to take ours.
No L’s, it is not hate that causes me to say these things. It is just cold hard truth. L’s the only thing that will change those trapped by Satan is the same thing that will free you from the trap of religion of which Satan has you chained like a blind beggar.
The only hope for the follower of Islam is the same hope you have, the biblical gospel.
But don’t think for one minute the god of Islam is the God of the Jews and Christians. That is just not the case.
cb,
You and I are just ignorant, redneck fundy’s. L’s is trying to help us see the truth. God is to merciful and kind to send any sincere soul to hell–well, as long as they’re not conservative and believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, then they’re of the devil for sure. (/sarcasm)
Joe,
It is not we, my brother, who are of the ignorant when we trust Christ alone.
To trust the Sacraments, to trust Canon Law, to trust the god of Islam, to trust the rudiments of man is ignorance.
But to trust Christ alone is not ignorance. To trust Christ alone is to be saved unto the uttermost and to be seated in the heavenlies.
I know. I was being sarcastic. That’s why I typed (/sarcasm) so I could turn the sarcasm off.
Evensong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3gfIJeNojo
Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found; Brought here together by Christ’s love, by love are we thus bound.
With grateful joy and holy fear God’s charity we learn; Let us with heart and mind and soul now love God in return.
Forgive we now each other’s faults as we our faults confess; And let us love each other well in Christian holiness.
Let strife among us be unknown, let all contention cease; Be God’s the glory that we seek, be ours God’s holy peace.
Let us recall that in our midst dwells God’s begotten Son; As members of his body joined, we are in Christ made one.
No race or creed can love exclude, if honored be God’s name; Our family embraces all whose Father is the same.
L’s,
God is not the Father of all. All were created in His image, for only God can create, but not all are His children.
The children of God are “only” those of whom are washed in the Blood of the Lamb. If a person is not born of God from above, that person remains the child of Satan, damned to everlasting Hell, unless, by God’s grace, they, through repentance and faith in the biblical gospel are saved from the parentage of the Devil unto the newness of life as children within the household of God.
CB, I still don’t know where that leaves Criswell, Pressler and Jesse Helms.
We have their statement of faith, and then we have evidences of intentional deceit; and if not that then places where they clearly missed the point, or acted as if their application of the Gospel was the perfection for all time; inerrancy as an example, and in Helms case, how he messed up on Oscar Romero and never confessed; nor did he repent for his “hands” ad that defeated Harvey Gannt; the first black president of Student Government at Clemson.
So there are other Christians whose judgment on these matters are different from yours.
I think you and Mohler are mistaken. My conviction and understanding has convinced me yours is a lesser insight, grasp of New Testament Truth.
As a short list I offer:
Richard Marius.
Martin Accad.
Barbara Brown Taylor
Anne Graham Lotz Brother in Law, Denton Lotz
Charles Kimball
Randall Balmer
Mark Noll
Underwood, the President of Mercer
Wayne Flynt
Stephen Black
Marney
Steve,
In what could I possibly wrong here Steve?
Forget Criswell and Pressler and all the others you mention and answer this question.
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in His Blood?
Hi C.B.
I was trying to sort out what on Earth you were talking about when you spoke of “the parentage of the Devil” and I FOUND A REFERENCE. It took a while, believe me.
It showed up in something called the ‘Two-Seed Theory” that was developed among some Baptists during something called ‘The Great Awakening’ and it was a pet teaching of a Baptist called Brother Daniel Parker.
This is what I found:
“It appears that during this time, Brother Daniel Parker was also formulating views on God and man that he would first release in his Views on the Two Seeds (1826). Parker taught that all persons are either of the “good seed” of God or of the “bad seed” of Satan.
Many consider his theory a type of Manichaeism.”
C.B., my Church rejected Manichaeism in the early centuries of Christianity, as a heresy.
L’s, Can you deny any of the above as true? No. You tend to ignore reality, clinging to a religion of mysticism that is as damning to the soul as Islam itself.
I shared this with you earlier:
Religion will get you: A head full of knowledge, A heart full of nothing and an eternity full of Hell.
Only those who have repented of sin and believed the biblical gospel will see the face of Christ in His radiant glory and be known as the children of God.
Hi C.B.
I was trying to sort out what on Earth you were talking about when you spoke of “the parentage of the Devil” and I FOUND A REFERENCE. It took a while, believe me.
It showed up in something called the ‘Two-Seed Theory” that was developed among some Baptists during something called ‘The Great Awakening’ and it was a pet teaching of a Baptist called Brother Daniel Parker.
This is what I found:
“It appears that during this time, Brother Daniel Parker was also formulating views on God and man that he would first release in his Views on the Two Seeds (1826). Parker taught that all persons are either of the “good seed” of God or of the “bad seed” of Satan.
Many consider his theory a type of Manichaeism.”
C.B., my Church rejected Manichaeism in the early centuries of Christianity, as a heresy. We never did accept Manichaeism or Dualism as any part of the Gospel. Ever.
L’s,
Had you known the Scripture, you would not have been ” trying to sort out what on Earth you were talking about when you spoke of the parentage of the Devil.” And it would not have taken you very long.
Forget the words of Parker, for they are simply the vain words of an unlearned man such as yourself.
You will find your answer to an understanding of what I meant from the mouth of the Lord Jesus in the New Testament. Consider John 8:39-47.
Your response to the truth is not unlike that of the leaders of the Jews. You say I am speaking heresy. They said Jesus had a demon.
Such conclusions from both are drawn from the same darkness of heart and mind. Neither you nor the leaders of the Jews know the Christ. For if you did, you would understand that of which I speak here and not need to look all over “earth” for an answer. You would have found it in the Word of God.
L’s,
just in case you don’t feel like looking up that passage which tosses your references out the window, read the words of Jesus, himself:
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil,and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” John 8:42-47
Hope giving the text helps any who would read this in understanding that anyone who does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, then their father is the devil. Not God.
We all can be God’s children, but we are not “all” born God’s children. We “must be born again.”
Thus anyone who claims to know the Father in heaven as their father, and do not profess the Lord Jesus Christ and intimately know Him, they are simply fooling themselves and listening to the father of lies–their father–the devil. selahV
L’s,
My friend Steve often recommends books for us to read. Let me recommend one for you. Don Richardson wrote a book entitled: Secrets Of The Koran.
In that book he tells some things about the Islamic desire to rule the world and bring all nations under the terrorist rule of Islam. The following is from his book:
At least 40, 000,000 Muslim kids in Islamic religious schools, called “madrasas” are learning the extreme concepts that would lead them to hate Jews and Christians.
Notice this quote from Richardson L’s: “Simply put, 40 million trainees in Muslim madrasas are a societal nuclear bomb.”
Think about that L’s. Think about that and know that I don’t agree with you about Islam.
To quote you L’s, “I don’t expect you to agree with that, but I would like for you to think about it.”
I’m gonna consider this in my heart, ponder it like the Virgin Mary and have a response later.
Steve,
Ponder this also:
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
80 percent of white Baptist deacons in the 60′s when Wallace was most virulent gave him approval rating.
Many of them lived long enough to confess the error of their ways and seek forgiveness. They taught their children wrong many in Sunday School in SBC churches in Alabama and Mississippi.
Sayyid Syeed on Parham’s documentary is seeking to work in Moslem life, the same Judge Frank Johnson was seeking to work in Baptist life in Alabama in the 60′s.
Paul Bear Bryant saw it. Howell Raines has a great essay, rather had a great essay right after Coach Bryant died spelling it out.
The world is a dark place, CB. The axis of evil is here and there and everywhere, it runs through each and everyone of us.
Instead of cultural supremacy, you should humble yourself like Bonhoeffer, and work to perfect the best of your faith position instead of spending your waking hours like God was in a Pissing contest with other faith traditions and counting on you to Piss the greatest distance.
When you get on the Defensive and make that your strongest talking point, you weaken the substance and strength of your convictions.
The best of the Baptist tradition offers you a better way in the wider Christian Community, toward the Kingdom of God.
You are missing the point, and I routinely hold out examples to you of folks who can show you greater insight into the Gospel.
AT some point Winter’s Bone may be appropriate for you: ” You was Warned and you didn’t listen, why didn’t you listen.”
Steve,
You are totally wrong. It does not matter what happened in the 60′s in Alabama or Hamburg. There is only one way to peace with God and that is by and through the Atonement of Christ.
Why is it that you will not answer the question I posed to you?
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
BTW Steve, Obviously you have not read of Bonhoeffer to the extent I would have thought. Else you would not mentioned him in this context. Steve, Bobhoeffer would soundly agree with me, there is only one way and that way is through Christ.
Yet, if Bobhoeffer were not to agree with me, it changes nothing. Jesus has declared that no man can come to God except through Him.
Answer the question Steve. It is a fair question within the context of this post and comment thread.
It was poor judgment on my part to fling Bonhoeffer’s name into this discussion at this point, a very inadequate invocation of his name, an abuse of his legacy.
Confusing at the least.
There is a better discussion in the exchange of Charles Marsh with Bobby Welch’s Boykin in Wayward Christian Soldiers.
But that may not be entirely appropriate here.
If you would look at Kimball and Marsh, that may advance the discussion some; but you and I both are doing a disservice to Christendom in this latest exchange.
As for the God of Abraham; may take that up later.
Do CB Scott and Al Mohler know more than Wikipedia?
Maybe they do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions
And here is the endorsement of Parham’s Documentary by Martin Accad, whose explorations have the support of the Alabama Baptist Convention.
The SBC state convention in Alabama and SAmford brought Accad to Bham a few years ago.
So CB SCott may have differences with the state convention. I hope he can work them out:
“‘Different Books, Common Word: Baptists and Muslims’ manages to avoid oversimplification of today’s most important and controversial debate, all-the-while staying away from both demonization and idealization. Though surprised by the kindness and grace discovered in each other, Christians and Muslims in the documentary are not blind to the bigotry of some of those who claim adherence to the same faith as the one they follow. I hope that this documentary will be used to illustrate and support sermons, Sunday school lessons, Friday addresses, and seminary classes, motivating the Church and the Mosque into demonstrations of practical love towards one another all over the world, so that when our extremists attempt to captivate our communities with their brash characterization of ‘the evil other,’ we will be inclined to stand up and say: ‘Thank you for sharing, but my own experience finds no affinity in your discourse.’”
Martin Accad, associate professor of Islamic Studies
Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, Beirut, Lebanon
and associate professor of Islamic Studies
School of Intercultural Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, California
You are correct Steve. You err in bringing Bobhoeffer into the discussion, if your intent was to use his legacy in opposition to my saying that there is salvation on in Jesus. For in reading Bonhoeffer’s writings you will find he would agree with me. Salvation is in Christ alone.
Steve,
In this case, Mohler and cb are absolutely right and Wiki sits in darkness of understanding deep inside the “Cave of Ignorance” in the vast wasteland of Political Correctness.
Again Steve, Here is the question I wish you would answer:
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
CB: I am not God and neither are you.
I have put my trust in Jesus Christ.
At the same time there is something that suggests to me that God the Father may be more pleased in some instances with what Sayyid Syeed did with the Truth that was revealed to him in his Tradition, (see the clip in Parham’s documentary where he asks Baptists to help him educate his people how to live in a pluralist Society); God may be more pleased with the desires of Syeed’s heart, than he was with Pressler, Helms and Criswell and the way they implemented their Absolute Vision of Scripture in the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Steve,
You are correct, neither of us is God. Nor is the god of Islam God. There is one God and that One God is the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. There is none other.
And the only way a human being can please the One God, no matter the human being’s background or traditions, is to believe upon His Only Begotten Son as Savior and Lord.
Any other “faith traditions” (as you refer to the religious systems of Satan) intersects at some point in the journey of humanity toward the judgement with the Highway to Hell for each human being traveling them.
Steve,
Why will you not answer the question I asked of you earlier. The answer is simple even if one were to adhere only to the Words of Jesus and I believe you adhere to the whole counsel of God’s Word.
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
L’s,
The god of Islam is not the God of Abraham, The Trinitarian God or God the Son who came to save vile sinners such as you and I.
It is the doctrine of Satan that all religions are equally valid, that all paths lead to God, that God is impersonal, unknowable and it is therefore irrelevant to Him what we call Him or how we worship Him. If Allah and God are one and the same, then would not the worship of the Hindu chief gods, Vishnu and Shiva, also be the worship of Allah and God, only by a different name? Pretty soon, everybody is God.
At that point nobody is God L’s. And that is exactly what Satan wants for us all; To have a god who is nobody.
C.B., here’s where I come from:
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0900556.htm
L’s,
Here is where I come from and where I stand:
“My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
On Christ the solid rock I stand,
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.
When Darkness veils his lovely face,
I rest on his unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
my anchor holds within the veil.
His oath, his covenant, his blood
supports me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
he then is all my hope and stay.
When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found!
Dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne!
I’m singing right along, dear brother. I love that hymn. And the new contemporary piece, IN CHRIST ALONE. It is powerful, too.
SelahV,
IN CHRIST ALONE is a wonderful and worshipful song. Why don’t you put up a YouTube clip of it? It would be fitting for this post. A-Men!
CB, I already put a link to IN CHRIST ALONE. But it’s buried in a sea of comments…so here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8welVgKX8Qo
Praise be to the Holy One of Israel, The Savior of our souls. By Christ alone are we saved.
SelahV, how can anyone say there could possibly be another way to peace than Christ Alone?
I join Peter who boldly said in his day as we must say now:
“Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. He is
” ‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
SelahV,
How is it possible that in a comment thread about a Mosque to possibly be built in NYC that some would venture to say that it might be possible to be at peace with God any other way than through the Atonement of Christ?
CB…one man’s peace is another man’s valium. One man’s blunt is another’s insensitivity. It’s all semantics to some, my friend. How can the darkness understand the light? The essence of darkness is absence of light. Can a blind man see? Can a deaf man hear? Can a dead man breathe? To be at peace with God to some, means keeping everybody happy. Jesus said he came not bring peace but a sword… I figure He meant He had to do some severing before He did the uniting.
Division is good–separates sheep from goats, you know.
Some have to wallow with pigs before they come to their senses. You know the story of the prodigal son, don’t you?
Some folks are trying to make spiritual decisions with man-made reasoning. Much of discernment is knowing the difference between the two. God’s wisdom is not man’s logic.
The peace of God can only come through the blood of the risen Lamb, Jesus Christ. The peace of man comes through whatever means necessary to appease self, confirm self, affirm self, and exalt self. The righteousness of God looks to Christ, the righteousness of man looks to self. The two are always at odds with the other.
I pray you have a great day in the Lord today. May you witness a powerful manifestation of the Spirit of God. selahV
May God’s blessings accompany you also today SelahV.
CB…thanks. Life is good. I can hardly wait to get to Sunday School and hear my husband teach “Face Crises with Courage”. Then I get to hear our pastor continue his series on Paul’s life. Such good stuff. selahV
“God is not the Father of all. All were created in His image, for only God can create, but not all are His children.
The children of God are “only” those of whom are washed in the Blood of the Lamb. If a person is not born of God from above, that person remains the child of Satan, damned to everlasting Hell, unless, by God’s grace, they, through repentance and faith in the biblical gospel are saved from the parentage of the Devil unto the newness of life as children within the household of God.”
Thanks, CB for speaking truth. And Selah V added to it by showing that even though we are all created in God’s image, we are to be “Born Again”. Those precious words have become so cliche, we forget the true meaning of them sometimes.
If we are not Born Again, we are children of satan. No matter how nice we might seem. There is no middle way. And the truth does not mean that we do not have compassion for the lost. That is something the Holy Spirit gives us as we are regenerated. But compassoin for the lost does not mean we stand by while they stone their daughters or behead Jews.
But what happens when some believers do not think Muslims are actually lost? Why would a Christian want to help Muslims be better Muslims? Islam is evil. It is a doctrine of demons. To do such a thing is to spit in the face of our Savior. We must tell them the truth.
Lydia,
You may not believe this and it will sound like drama, but hat is not the case.
I prayed yesterday that you would read this post and comment thread and enter into the dialogue. I have met few people in Blogtown who understand the threat of Islam and, at the same time, the need to evangelize them in a biblical and loving manner. You also articulate the gospel as well or better than any Baptist preacher who enters the streets of Blogtown to set up his “tent.”
In addition, you have been around this little burg long enough to know the truth about what and why some people say the things about Islam that they do. As another preacher said back in the 60s, “Longevity does have its benefits.” And that is certainly true around a comment thread in Blogtown!
CB, are you saying Lydia should be a candidate for Ordination and the Senior Pastorate somewhere?
Steve,
I am saying that although I have disagreed with Lydia on may occasions, she has never failed to recognize the gospel as it is, nor to stand for it. I also noticed last year that many of the things she said about followers of Islam are things I had also experienced. Later I found out that she has had much personal experience with Muslim people and her love for then in unyielding and t the same time she understands the inherent danger in their religion.
As to ordination, I must admit that I would not ordain her. I also must admit that she certainly has far more understanding of the faith than many who have had hands laid on them in far too great a haste.
Steve, I have answered your question to the best of my ability and with honesty. Would you render me the same courtesy and answer mine to you?
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
Stephen, I neither believe in the “tradition” of ordination that is man made or a “senior pastorate”. And I “pastor” people often (and am pastored by other more mature believers than I such as my beloved cousin). My current flock consists of my daughter and another, a new believer. My prayer is that both go on to “pastor” others, eventually.
See, you do not need a special building or worldly credentials to “pastor”. (wink)
LOL
Steve, I knew that if she saw your comment she was going to say that.
I would have made book on it.
Would a sure bet be considered gambling?
)
Strong train of thought to say the rubric of inerrancy is man-made as well;
But glad you and CB are having fun this afternoon.
I do hope before mid October you and CB will consider Fisher Humphrey’s thoughts on Lost Traditions, most of which is online in his chapter of the book that usually googles up.
I don’t think IMB, or Frank Page will toss around Satan’s name as cavalierly as you and CB when talking about interfaith dialogue, but I do think somebody with this Blog site needs to find out so Gary Fenton cantell his people and maybe set new guidelines for where they are sending their CP dollars.
Allah=Satan
Muhamed=prophet of Satan
Christianity has nothing in common with Islam since Islam is based on the babblings of a pedophile who if he had a supernatural encounter at all had a supernatural encounter with Satan whereas Christianity is baed on the revelation of the only God in His inerrant, inspried word.
Steve,
The answer to the question? Its a fair question and you know it.
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
BTW Steve,
Joe is right. The guy was a pedophile.
“Strong train of thought to say the rubric of inerrancy is man-made as well;”
Huh? Translators are errant. The Holy Spirit, our Best Teacher through the Word, is inerrant.
CB, I am at a loss for words. For once :0)
All our disagreements in the world about the CR, women, etc., disappear when it comes to the truth about Jesus Christ. He is exclusive…as the Way, the Truth and the Life… yet ALL can come to Him. But it is a narrow gate: Jesus Christ.
As to Allah being the god of Abraham, I would ask that some consider this teaching from Jay Smith, an Islamic Scholar and Christian in London who spends a lot of time witnessing to Muslims in Hyde Park:
http://www.youtube.com/pfanderfilms#p/c/900CC8F51B717979/3/gy_YrhJRYjA
A-Men Lydia,
I realize you are a swift and able opponent in a blog fight and I have the wounds on my “keypad” to prove it.
But your gift for understand the truth of the biblical gospel in comparison to any other “gospel” has always garnered my respect.
Our differences in interpretation of “some things biblical” does most certainly pale to nothingness in comparison when we gaze up at our Lord Jesus through the shadow of the cross “we” hung Him on.
BTW, if you run into Paula, tell her about this post. I have always noticed that you and Paula together are a great help to my friend L’s in a comment thread. As one sniper said to another once, “I have always admired your work.”
Sniper being the key word CB.
Debbie,
Before you get your scope zeroed for a kill shot, maybe you should read the comment thread a while.
if you would answer this question: (I think I know how you would answer it, but I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.)
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
BYW, you owe a lot to snipers, so don’t exercise your “freedom of speech” in a mean way here.
Because Stephen, on some things I agree with them on. I believe the only prayer God hears from a non-Christian is the prayer for him to do a work in their heart and bring them salvation.
CB: There is only one way to salvation and Lydia articulated it quite well, although salvation, and our want for it, is for more reasons than to keep our tails out of hell. I just see you aligning an attack group up, as you will do and throw the Gospel, like you have been, like a hand grenade. Bang! Take That! And that is venting your anger in a wrong way, which is using the Gospel like a sniper uses his/her gun. And it’s not going to work.
Hello Debbs,
There is no doubt that the “real” Debbie Kaufman is in the house!
Debbie, this comment thread has basically been a discussion board for the last while relating to Islam and its differences from Christianity. I did not just drive by and throw a hand grenade into a crowded room. I am not an Islamic terrorist.
And Debbie, there is no anger here. I have simply maintained the dialogue’s subject matter without compromise in any way as to the fact that the god of Islam is not the God of Abraham. You are capable in your reading. Go back up the thread and you will see that.
And as to the “sniper” remark? Well Debbie, when one relates the gospel, one should be very direct and deliberate in his actions with absolute determination to “deliver the goods” so to speak. Lydia is always direct in delivering the goods as to the gospel. Therefore the sniper remark. And “that’s about all I have to say about that”, to quote Forrest Gump.
Now would you mind too much if I ask you again to weigh into the question?
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
I’m not the one getting ready for a kill shot CB that is your specialty. Getting your entourage together for the kill. I just think you need to knock it off. It’s not the Gospel, it’s using the Gospel for your ammunition. That isn’t the Gospel, that’s just your religious license to kill. Don’t. It’s not the Gospel of the Bible you are giving, it’s exactly as you call it, getting snipers together and using the name of God to do it.
This coming from some old broad who won’t share the gospel with L’s, who is obiviously lost (any real Christian would recognize that) and was more concerned with taking down Caner “by gawd” than taking the time to share the gospel with a muslim man. Talk about some screwed up priorities.
Joe: In case you haven’t caught it the first thousand times you have written this garbage, this is me ignoring it, again.
No, that is you proving my point, again.
Joe,
for the most part I find myself sitting on my hands now that this thread has taken the turn it has. 409 comments, and out of all of them, I might count 80 worth reading–and offering anything toward the focus of this post. I don’t know for sure, would have to go back and study them. But I’d be surprised if 25% of them would survive my copy-editing should I want to edit them for a manuscript.
That said, While Debbie is perfectly capable of “ignoring” your remarks, there are some folks who may come by here–a lost person, possibly a Muslim who googles this post, a new Christian in search of answers–and will find them horribly demeaning.
Whether that would happen, I do not know. But I do find them insulting, and ask you to stop it. selahV
Debbie, how come you wern’t upset about the gambling metaphor he used earlier, too?
)
Debbie: Would be nice if you could get one of the Burleson’s to weigh in here on CB and Lydia’s dismissal of all interfaith dialogue.
I guess they agree with Bailey Smith that God does not hear the Prayer of a Jew.
Hope your telling the Muslim fellow you got to know in the Caner ordeal about the Common Word documentary; and Martin Accad.
See the quote from Accad I shared above.
CB, I’ve turned up Mark Newman’s book on Race and the SBC up to 95. I doubt Pressler and Criswell come out very well. May be some good history in there for Glenn Beck to explore.
Joe Blow Blackmon:
You said:”This coming from some old broad who won’t share the gospel with L’s, who is obiviously lost (any real Christian would recognize that) and was more concerned with taking down Caner “by gawd” than taking the time to share the gospel with a muslim man. Talk about some screwed up priorities.”
You are a sick man. You really ought to just be quiet. You put more garbage in one comment than I have to remove from my house in a week.
Your not helping the Gospel at all.
Which is my point. I think people who spew like that need the Gospel more than need to give it.
“You put more garbage in one comment than I have to remove from my house in a week.”
Tom Parker,
That is actually a very relative statement is it not?
In my case, I don’t think I could make that statement.
Exactly how many children do you have living in your home and how old are they? Because dependent on how many kids a guy has and their ages is important when measuring the amount of garbage one takes out of his house in a week.
“See, you do not need a special building or worldly credentials to “pastor”. (wink)”
Can’t resist: “We don’t need no stinking badges!”
And by golly here they all are in all their glory. Take shelter and that’s all I’m sayin.
Hello Paula,
It has been a while.
Have you talked to L’s lately? She’s in town. Maybe you guys can get together.
Debbie, come on back out and play. We will have a good time. The gang’s all here!
Hi CB.
Been busy.
But I don’t plan to talk much… it seems I’m just too scary. I still remember L’s words to that effect in some blog about Halloween a long time ago, and I wouldn’t want to induce any more traumatic memories.
But what I will do is keep focused on the gospel, and love unbelievers enough to tell them that there is only One Way to be saved, which necessarily means there is no other way. I’ll tell it to Muslims, Mormons, JWs, Hindus, and even Liberals.
I’ll tell it to those who think they know Jesus but have accepted an impostor who didn’t die for us, isn’t God, or cares nothing about holiness or justice. I’ll say it even while they throw rocks at me, mock me behind my back, or call me a hatemonger.
Paula,
I have read much from you. Sometimes as a “lurker” (I absolutely hate that word.) and at time with engagement. I realize you and I do not agree on some theological concepts, especially relating to ecclesiology and dare I say the egal/comp issues. Yet, I have always admired your grit in standing uncompromisingly for the biblical gospel and holiness in the life of a Believer.
Thanks for sharing a good word. And if it means anything, I don’t think you are a hatemonger. And I don’t think you are scary. (I remember that comment) I do think you recognize evil when you see it and I guess that is scary to some folks. I actually think that is what cost John the Baptist his head. So watch your topknot!!
Well shucks CB… thanks! And God knows we need more of us uniting on the gospel in these times. I hope you know I wasn’t talking about you, regarding the hatemonger thing, it’s just what seems to follow any of our attempts to say some people won’t get to heaven on niceness alone. And good advice on the need to be alert for sharp objects.
But you don’t scare me. That’s not what the problem is Paula and I think you know that.
Debbie, the problem is that you don’t see how you commit all the infractions you continually blast others for committing, such as your recent accusation against Lydia of “yelling”. This is why I don’t try anymore to discuss anything with you; all you do is deny everything no matter what people say. And you’ll even turn right around and accuse me of being the one who does all this. It’s utterly pointless to try any more.
And FWIW, I’ve never seen any of Joe’s inquisitors demonstrate the love and tolerance they demand from him. It’s blatant hypocrisy on their part.
But again, I’m here to defend the gospel, not rehash everybody’s victim status.
Amen Paula. I actually love this.
Thanks.
My comment on loving this was in reference to Paula’s wanting to give the Gospel to all.
I didn’t know the Gospel ever needed defending Paula? I know we give people the Gospel, loving them, caring about them, which is to show their need of a Savior, with their best intentions at heart. I didn’t know we come in guns a blazing to defend it and then give it like a hand grenade to people to shut them up by saying they are lost. It’s not giving the Gospel Paula or defending it, it’s insulting people and using it as a weapon. But you go right ahead.
Know who it needs defending from, Debbie?
Not so much atheists, Muslims, or other unbelievers, but from Christians who don’t seem to know what it is.
They tell Muslims and Mormons they’re worshiping the same God. They think that mystical meditation isn’t forbidden. They think any Jesus of any definition will save. They think homosexuality is not still a sin against God. They think you can have either faith without holiness or holiness without faith.
I guess a better word than defending would be defining. Scripture tells me it involves both faith in the right Jesus and the intent to reconcile with God, which means dying to sin. And in order to do those things, you must know the facts about Jesus and what God calls sin. Only the Bible can tell us those things, and if those things differ from what other religions say, then the other religions are false and their followers are lost.
What is your definition, Debbie, and why do you think there’s no conflict with, say, Morminism or Islam?
“Debbie: Would be nice if you could get one of the Burleson’s to weigh in here on CB and Lydia’s dismissal of all interfaith dialogue.”
Dialogue as in sharing the Gospel?
“I guess they agree with Bailey Smith that God does not hear the Prayer of a Jew.”
That is quite a leap you make in what I believe, Stephen.
BTW: I thought of Cornelius who was not technically a Jew but practicing Judaism and God sent Peter to tell him about Jesus Christ.
I believe that anyone who is sincerely seeking the One True God would be led to Jesus Christ. God is using dreams with quite a few Muslims in Islamic country’s so they will seek the truth about “Isa”.
“God is using dreams with quite a few Muslims in Islamic country’s so they will seek the truth about “Isa”.
More than once I have heard this testimony from Muslims who became Followers of Christ.
I do not in the least doubt its truth.
Lydia: Sharing the Gospel doesn’t entail shouting it out at those you wish to shout it out to and just so you can say you are sharing the gospel all over the internet. Sharing the Gospel is Holy Spirit sanctioned and led. Yelling it out to shut people up is not it’s use. Saving people is. If you think that yelling it at whoever is in the path that you are angry at the moment, I think you need to rethink that position, because that is what you are doing. You guys do more bragging and nagging than actual evangelism as Christ did.
“Sharing the Gospel doesn’t entail shouting it out at those you wish to shout it out to and just so you can say you are sharing the gospel all over the internet. Sharing the Gospel is Holy Spirit sanctioned and led. Yelling it out to shut people up is not it’s use. Saving people is. If you think that yelling it at whoever is in the path that you are angry at the moment, I think you need to rethink that position, because that is what you are doing. You guys do more bragging and nagging than actual evangelism as Christ did.
”
Debbie, if you could point me to where I said we should shout the Gospel at people, I will repent of it. As far as I know, most here are professing believers who are having a debate. I was referring to Stephen’s comment about interfaith dialogue and hoping the dialogue would be sharing the Gospel. I was not aware that would be interpreted as “shouting” it people.
“I guess they agree with Bailey Smith that God does not hear the Prayer of a Jew.”
Lydia,
You are correct. That is a leap of faith on Steve’s part to say or even think we believe this.
Steve,
Have I ever made such a statement?
CB:
You are doing Joe Blow Blackmon no big favor by supporting his unchristian behavior towards Debbie K and Christiane on this blog. I think he really looks up to you and you may be the only one who can reel him in. Do you not see this?
LOL
I’m laughing at all the activity from C.B. here.
Now C.B., you didn’t need to go and drum up ‘reinforcements’ from ‘the gang’ (I love it!) ’cause I have no intention of ripping your head off for being a ‘closet’ Manichae. The truth is that lot of fundamentalists fall into a form of Manichaeism and/or Dualism without even realizing it.
So relax.
Actually you’re in pretty good company. Did you know that
St. Augustine flirted with Manichaeism before he converted ?
And he turned out just fine. There is hope for you, too.
I will help if I can. Honest.
Enjoy your evening ! And give my very best to ‘the gang’.
Your friend,
L’s
L’s,
You have missed me by a mile. Or should we say “two.” I do not adhere to dualism. Now, I did see Debbie make a dualistic statement recently. Did you catch it?
She said Jesus is the “opposite of evil.” That is a dualistic statement.
God is not the opposite of Satan. God is sovereign over all. Satan is a defeated foe. He is finished. It is “already, but not yet” so to speak.
My point that you did not understand, obviously, is that lost people are not the children of God (BTW did you read the passage in John I referenced in another related comment?)
Only those who have been born of God from above are the children of God.
See, L’s the “two seed” teachings are heresy. God is sovereign over all. He has no equals. And the only children He has are those who have know the Christ as Savior.
The Scripture will reveal these things to you L’s. Leave off reading Canon Law and get into the Bible. There you shall find life.
Well L’s and all,
It has been fun and enlightening also, but I will leave you now for a while. One of my son’s from NC just arrived to visit his Momma who has been sick for a while.(Maybe he is here to visit his “hardcore” (all of my sons declare their daddy to be “hardcore” when they are together and the girls think I am a “softy.” Strange huh?) daddy also, you think?
)
And he brought his wife and two of my grandchildren with him. One of them is a roughhouse boy like his Old Papa. So I am going to see if my daughter-in-law will let me teach him how to do some choke holds and back kicks and such. You think she will let me?
You folks hold the fort down. God bless each one of you. And remember: ITS CHRIST ALONE! And may we all fall at His feet and cry HOLY!!
Tom Parker,
There have been times when I have asked Joe to give Debbie some slack. But let me ask you, have you ever ask Debbie to give anyone any slack whatsoever?
BTW, Joe does not necessarily look up to me. I am no Guru. Nor do I have the need or hunger to be one like some folks west of the Mississippi we know. Joe and I just agree with each other a great deal on subjects in comment threads. I think Joe and I read the same Bible.
Now Tom Parker,
I can’t seem to be able to get anyone I ask to answer this question:
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in the His Blood?
Tom Parker, would you mind taking a crack at it?
CB: Believe me I have given loads of slack, or I would say much, much more than I do. I am saying what I see and not using ugly names to do it with, cause frankly that is mean, childish, and a way to not deal with the facts. Such as your comment to Tom is a way of not dealing with the facts. God help us CB if the way you do things is fulfilling the great Commission in the movements eyes. Somehow I don’t think it is. And how many have been won using these tactics? None that I can see.
Paula:
You said:”And FWIW, I’ve never seen any of Joe’s inquisitors demonstrate the love and tolerance they demand from him. It’s blatant hypocrisy on their part.”
Wow! All we need is your being another apologist for Joe Blow Blackmon. BTW I have never considered myself one of Joe’s inquisitors. He has never posted anything I wanted to inquise him about.
Tom,
Joe knows the gospel. I STRONGLY disagree with him on the two C’s: Calvinism and Complementarianism. But he knows the gospel, so he is my brother in Christ.
But I will also defend any brother or sister in Christ from another if the other is in the wrong. If you object to anyone “being an apologist” for a wronged brother or sister in Christ, then you have some explaining to do.
So many object to Joe’s manner, and sometimes he does step over the line. But the hypocrisy is when those who “correct” him do so by violating every principle they claim he lacks! They are mean-spirited, vulgar, attacking, mocking… all the things they accuse him of. And again the point is not that Joe isn’t guilty of those things, but that his accusers are as well. And the reason he isn’t the hypocrite is because he doesn’t go around trying to micromanage how other people talk. Get it?
And I hope by now you also “get” why I used the word “inquisitors”. It denotes those who claim to only want answers but who really enjoy grilling someone with sadistic glee. They attack him like a pack of jackals and think themselves righteous. “He asks for it,” they say. “He deserves it.” But if he deserves it because some undefined meanness is wrong for Christians, then it’s wrong for ALL Christians, including his attackers. Get it?
Paula:
If a person posts as frequently as Joe, says the same thing every time, and says he doesn’t have time to read any books or think about anythng; wouldn’t you find him a little annoying, maybe something of an Ass, to put it in reference to Baalam in the OT where it spoke.
The OT being the common vernacular of almost all of us on this board.
If Joe tells me repeatedly I’m going to Hell, at some point doesn’t my Humanity have a right to show itself in some way;
And at What point do the Administrators have a role in bringing Joe Blackmon into further evidences in the Christian Faith without using these reprimands to cavalierly and arbitrarily turn these suggestions back on to the folks who might humbly Suggest: Houston, we Have a Problem.
And who is to determine what exchanges are in good humor and which are with malice as that is often impossible.
And at what point; Paula, does the remedy become worse than the illness.
Get it?
Stephen Fox,
Did you read what I said? I said the point is not whether Joe is guilty of something, but that it is hypocritical for his opponents to use the very negative words they condemn him for. If it’s wrong for Joe it’s wrong for you too. That was my point.
Instead of trying to police Joe, why not either ignore him or focus only on his arguments? And if you can’t reason with him, why keep trying? I’m not saying you can’t defend yourself, but only that you can’t break your own rules in the process. And if you don’t like the way this blog is run, why not ask them to change it, and accept whatever they decide?
Your question about “who is to determine” applies equally to Joe’s attackers. Who are they? Why are only they allowed to judge? Who named them blog police?
Get it?
“Instead of trying to police Joe, why not either ignore him or focus only on his arguments?”
Because it is easier to censor. I would think they would love Joe, since he makes their backhanded insults and great leaps in accusations look almost nice.
Dear Get it Paula:
I’m just curious and I don’t mean this as a taunt, just trying to figure out where you are coming from.
Are you an inerrantist? Do you believe the first 11 Chapters of Genesis are Science and History, or were intended by their author as a Testament of Faith about the origins and nature of the World?
If your church asked you to sign BFM 2000 in order to be a member, would you do it?
And as soon as possible, would like to know what you think of the Mosque in NYC. You write well, and clearly; wonder if you are inclined to use some of those gifts to entertain the topic at hand.
ARe you convinced The God of ABraham is not the God of the Moslem Faith; and that all those folks are damned to Hell.
If you do believe that, at what point can there be any interfaith dialogue, or do you think like CB and JoeB, that is a waste of time.
And while I am asking questions,not demanding you answer any of them; are your familiar with Susan Shaw’s book on her Mother’s Sunday School class?
Get it?
And Thanks.
Dear Don’t Get It Stephen:
Start with the About page on my blog for answers to all your ad hominem, red herring, but allegedly non-taunting questions, and then if you have time, do some reading of articles on those topics. It’s easy to do a search, and better to refer to what I’ve already publicly stated than to copy it all over here. Thanks for your concern for my spiritual well-being.
I will say this here though, since it’s actually on-topic: witnessing to the lost can only be done by those who know the gospel and are not willing to compromise it and thus send the lost to hell thinking they’re saved. “Dialog”, in contrast, is a call to compromise, to dilute. I will witness, but I will not ‘dialog’.
ARe you convinced The God of ABraham is not the God of the Moslem Faith
Yep, you don’t believe that a muslim’s Islamic faith can save them. Where on earth did I ever get that idea?
Lydia, may I interject a comment here. Quite often the blog (SBCVoices) and the author of a blog-post (in this case, me) on the blogsite, get lumped together as administrators of a particular post.
I, the author of this post, have repeatedly tried to keep this particular comment stream on point [what I wrote about]. Repeatedly, no matter how often I have spoke to either Stephen or Joe or whomever–about keeping it on topic, it is ignored. They may offer a quick, cute reply, and then go right on doing what they do–speaking their own minds–but the point of focus is rarely addressed. However, the actions and words of many on this stream–and others at Voices–have exemplified my point of Christians talking past one another and leaving their “light”, or lack thereof, for all the world to see. The “salt” of which all Christians claim, is often that which could be tossed along the paths of our blogstreams–useless, worthless–other than to be trod upon by another’s feet.
I can only assume that this is exactly what the blog-owner, and or, editor of this blogsite want to occur. Otherwise, they would jump in and say something. The editor, Matt Svoboda, has no problem telling me that my analogies are “horrible” or my comments are “unnecessary” and “rambling”, and to “calm down”, when I comment on another author’s post. However, on the whole of blogposts–it seems like Voices allows people to voice their thoughts–often without regard to another’s protest, the op-author’s requests–or an instigator’s pokes, jabs, and proddings.
I’ve been blogging here at Voices since Tony Kummer first added writers to his blogsite. I’m am just now coming to understand what I believe is the way this blogsite operates under the current editorial policies. This comment stream is the prime example.
Lydia, I appreciate your thoughts in this stream, however, it seems like more of the “stream of thought” is being focused upon personalities within the stream, than words written in the op above–or positions one holds regarding the op above. Would that were not so, but I have no control over anyone’s voice or input. None. Zero. Zip. And from what I am seeing, those who might have control–find it totally appropriate for this stream and any other.
That said, Lydia, I’m just trying to share what my thoughts are on the entire matter. And have come to understand that what you say is perfectly in keeping with the guidelines being enacted within the streams.
So have at it, sister. I’m all eyes.
And Joe–have at it. Stephen–have at it. Debbie–have at it. CB–have at it. Everyone–have at it. Speak now and let your “voice” be heard [read]. Liberty encompasses us all. The “police” have left the building.
selahV
To Hariette, Lydia and Paula; and to a lesser extent, Debbie:
First Debbie, something rare as this thread continues a pertinent question for the topic at hand.
Could you get your Moslem friend with whom you have discussed Caner to come here and entertain some of Joe B and CB Scott’s roadblocks to interfaith dialogue?
And to all, As women who speak so forcefully, it is amazing to me how you stay in the SBC and live under the law of BFM 2000.
It is a great mystery.
I’ll respond to this one last comment of yours:
What makes you think I’m still in it? (That’s rhetorical, no need to respond.)
HI SelahV,
I am not a big fan of this type of comment stream format mainly because I missed this comment by you earlier! So, I apologize.
But I have to admit, I am not sure exactly what you are trying to communicate to me, personally. And that could be because I can be dense at times. Sometimes it is best to just say it right out. I have a thick skins so don’t worry about offending me!
)
Here is a Testimony from the Great Northwest, over on SBC Trends of http://www.baptistlife.com/forums in a discussion about Muslims in Oklahoma.
Be sure you understand Haruo’s last line was in Jest.
Re: Islam at Oklahoma Baptist University?
by Haruo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:10 pm
I just had a nice conversation with a woman on the bus who was dressed in a black just-a-slit-for-the-eyes dress. Her English was pretty good, but I regretted the limitations of my spoken French. She was from Niger. She had her son, maybe less than two, with her. He was not veiled. Also in the conversation was an Islamic Oromo woman, who was wearing a nun’s habit from my childhood (without headwings). We mainly talked about African geography, ethnography, and languages. Both women did a very good job of hiding their desire/intention to kill me.Haruo
(??•??) aka Leland Bryant Ross — visit My hymnblog
Repeal the language tax — Learn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist Church Website (I’m the webmaster!)
Some thoughts on ‘dia-logos’ among Christian people:
Ephesians gives some insight . . . .
“in Jesus Christ, you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. In effect, He is our peace: He who made us both one and who has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, enmity. … So that you are no longer strangers “
Paula:
You said that “Joe knows the Gospel”.
The better point would be–does the Gospel know him?
And who decides that?
I’m sure that if we hung out everybody’s dirty laundry, we could say none of us act saved all the time. But if someone believes the facts about Jesus and has accepted Him as the only way to be reconciled to God, then all we can do about those who don’t act in line with NT principles (fruit of the Spirit) is try to help them see where they err. I don’t see anyone showing the tiniest bit of LOVE in their responses to Joe. If they consider him a believer on the basis of his testimony, then why don’t they practice what they preach: gentleness to fellow believers? Never mind whether Joe does this too; the question is why some people think they’re exempt as long as the victim is “not nice”.
I happen to know that Joe personally struggles with these things. He is trying. Isn’t that good enough for you? Why can you use the “trying” excuse then with God?
And given a choice between a Christian who isn’t nice but has the gospel right, and one who is outwardly nice but compromises the gospel, I’ll take the former every time, because I can count on them to proclaim the truth to the lost. The latter will send them straight to hell.
Paula: Read your last paragraph again. And again, and again. Then read 1 Corinthians 13 for a start. The result of salvation is love. Love for God, love for others. That is to be shown outwardly because it can’t help but be. Read your paragraph then put that next to scripture.
Debbie: Read my last paragraph again and again. Does “sending them straight to hell” not bother you? Read what Paul said in Philippians 1:
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
And in Galatians 1:
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God’s curse!
Paula: Are you an ordained Preacher, and If not,why Not?
I”m not sure what “ordained” preacher has to do with my comment, but no I’m not. Why? Because the NT says nothing about the traditional “ordained pastor/preacher”. We’re all to spread the gospel, which is translated “preaching” in many Bibles, but there are no examples or teachings of “ordained preachers” in the NT.
Now I have a question for you: what’s up with all the personal questions, which are clearly red herrings? Is the topic of this post “Is Paula A Heretic?” or “Weighing In On the Mosque…”?
Paula; I’m ready for you to weigh in on the Mosque at any time; I may have missed it,but to date haven’t seen your opinion on it here.
Do you go to Joe’s church; or met him in person on some occasion?
The mosque, as anyone familiar with Islam would tell you, is a sign of conquest, nothing more and nothing less. It’s like planting a flag on a conquered hill during war, because to the devout Muslim, all of them are continually at war with all infidels and they must be conquered. This was never a matter of faith or Constitutional rights, but whether we are stupid enough to allow Islam to plant the flag of the conquerer on our soil. Islam is a government that tolerates no other, and knows a weak and spineless country when it sees one.
Your second question is irrelevant and inquisitorial.
Paula,
With every reply, your startin to scare me a little more and more.
You may do it with conviction so I guess I go with that.
I have had a chance to click over to your blog; and you don’t leave many stones unturned over there.
Now I’m thinking Your Church of God or something; which is fine; great many of my extended family isstill in or comes from that Tradition.
Or maybe you are a Hardshell Baptist in which case CB Scott and I when CB returns from family duties have a goodline for you from a Ron Rash novel.
Bottomline for me on the Mosgue; think I will stay with Baptist scholar Martin Accad of the Seminary in Beirut; cause wittingly or not you’re thinkin may push us into Armageddon with or without the prophecy of Scripture which I’m not as certain as you seem to be you have the last Word On.
Stephen, I don’t know what you’re afraid of, or why you keep trying so hard to put me in a box, or why you keep trying to make everything about me. I especially don’t know why you think that if I dare to criticize the planting of a Muslim flag over my country that I’m trying to start WWIII. But if you want to see someone who is bent on having the last word, I’m sure there’s a mirror in your house.
And at this point I’ll resolve not to converse with you further as it only adds to off-topic personality wars.
Paula:
It saddens me you throw in the towel so early in our dialogue.
I think you throw up a Red Herring, when you rush to say the Muslims are trying to displace Our Flag in this country.
In the documentary by Robert Parham endorsed by the Book of Eli’s Denzel Washington; Sayyid Syeed asks Baptists to help his faith tradition to understand how to create separation of church and state, the benefits of a pluralist society.
If you can’t work toward that end, I don’t see how much of an authentic Baptist Witness of the Roger Williams and John Leland tradition you were interested in to begin with.
I do hope your prayertime with Joe Blackmon goes well.
Okay I said that sarcastically, even cynically.
But I can’t see how much pilgrimage there can be even if you have decided in your heart what the outcome already is; and if you come to a Baptist Board and from the outset write off the finest aspects of the Baptist tradition.
Paula, “Weighing in On the Mosque…” I appreciate your comments in this stream. They add a great deal of light to the thrust and heart of what I am trying to say (albeit not as articulately as some). We need to speak kindly to one another, and bear in mind that what we say is drowned out by how we say it. And our attitudes, actions, and rhetoric can often betray the Savior for Whom we are given a commission to “and tell”.
I am about to embark on an incredible journey in my life. I have volunteered to help teach speaking English to an Iraqi woman. I wonder what she might read here, on this stream, that would be a means to lead her to an understanding of a Savior who died for her. I wonder what our words, when she is able to read our language, would say to her.
I do not know. But I do know that the love of Christ is what she will see in me as I seek to share my language and my Lord. To me, the two should be consistent–and many times, I fail in my consistency–as does Joe, or Stephen, or Debbie. But the beauty and glory of the righteousness of Christ is that we are not justified by our words or actions. We are not even sanctified by them. But Christ is continually sanctifying us as we grow in Him. selahV
I’m not trying to compromise your morals cause the title of the Book may be a little misleading at first,but I do hope you will risk reading the book Reading Lolita in Tehran before or as you go on Pilgrimage with the ESL adventure.
Pardon me, Hariette I was about to confuse you with Paula and respond to the wrong person.
Even so, I agree with you,some of the comments here may cause concern to a Moslem woman; I know it would to me if someone of their faith with acquaintances and public pronouncements on this board were trying to teach me to read the native language in Tehran.
Hariette, I do hope you will get Parham’s documentary and watch it with your new friend.
And as you blog at your site on this journey, do give us reminders here at this board so we can see how it is going.
And I don’t think it would hurt for you to offer her a copy of Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil.
You may learn something as well.
Hariette,
I understand what you’re saying. But surely if one of your neighbors happened to walk by your house while you were arguing with family members, they would not think less of you, since everybody does that at times. This is an internal debate among believers, in a Christian blog. I think it would be quite unreasonable for members of other religions to think that our internal debates must be censored so as not to offend them. Would they likewise censor their own internal “family squabbles” so Christians don’t think poorly of them? So far this has not been the case; I’ve seen what they say about us in private.
Even so, I don’t see hatred for Muslims here; I see love that wants to tell them the whole truth about Jesus, about God. Nobody here is advocating lynchings, bombings, slavery, or anything of the sort. What we are saying is that they are lost and need the one and only Savior.
If some members of any given religion are “bad”, we easily agree that they don’t represent the whole. But somehow, when it comes to Christians, we drop that concession like a hot potato and endlessly wring our hands in self-doubt. Somehow it is only us who must mute our witness out of fear of offending. Yet as I’ve stated elsewhere many times, I’ve heard people say that the reason they reject Christianity is not meanness, but spinelessness: we won’t stand for what we believe, we allow no passionate defense of our faith, and we cannibalize our own when they do.
Satan would dearly love it if we just could shut up the more vocal and passionate among us, and hamstring the Body of Christ with political correctness.
Hariette, I think your soul is aching for the great sermons of Fleming Rutledge and you didn’t have a clue.
Now you do. Find a copy of her collection Help My Unbelief.
Great Sermons. It is not you are a person of overwhelming Doubt, which obviously you are not; that just happens to be the Title of her Collection of Sermons and I think you’ll love em.
Paula: Read the fruit of the Spirit in scripture. Read what happens when one is born again? Does a new Christian or one who is ignorant of the Bible until he is more mature get the Gospel right? Not usually. But he’s truly born again. Outward signs show this. Also one can know what the Bible says inside and out and not be truly born again. So what I am saying is I don’t agree with your statement. If the outer doesn’t begin to change, and yes that would mean the difference would be in conviction, are they repentant of that sin, that is the sign of a person being born again, Loving the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, mind, which is an emotion, is also a sign. Christ said the greatest commandment is what?
Debbie: Are you the sole arbiter of who is making progress and where they should be at this point in time? Are you calling Joe a liar when he says he is trying to improve? Do newborn believers exhibit all the fruit of the Spirit immediately? Do you ever offer to talk with Joe privately about your concerns, or is it easier to lob grenades?
Speaking of fruit of the Spirit, I could easily challenge yours as well. And I’d be willing to help you out with that. But you have to be willing to be taught. Does that offend you? Then it offends Joe. Think about it.
We agree that the “outer” should change, but not on whose responsibility it is to demand certain checkpoints at certain times. Again I ask, where is any love for Joe’s spiritual maturity? I only see you condemn him and judge him.
Do you love the lost, Debbie? Enough to confront them with their false beliefs, and tell them they must be born again by only faith in the crucified and risen Jesus, for the purpose of being reconciled with God? Or do you tell Muslims how their niceness exceeds our own and we could learn from them, or that we worship the same God, or that we have the same Jesus even though theirs isn’t the Son of God and did not die for anyone’s sins? How much do you love Muslims?
I confess it is harder for me to love Joe than it is for me to Love folks of other religions that I come in contact with.
Admittedly I do not live in the Mideast or Saudi, or Iran or Iraq.
But one Hindu woman I have come into contact with, and Sayyid Syeed on Parham’s Common Word tape show more evidence of Christ in their heart though they do not claim his Name, than Joe Blackmon.
And it grates on my Soul to say just because Paula or JoeB mouth some dogma that in the Great Gettin up Mornin, and Almighty and Knowing God would find more favor in JoeB and Paula than he would in these two fine folks of another tradition with whom I am acquainted.
And no offense to you Paula; so far I think you are fighting a good fight with integrity and conviction and I admire you for it.
I just think your judgment is a little skewed, less wise than it could be. I hope I don’t anger you to the point that you harden you to the point you get distracted from a Pilgrimage that could lead you out of some of the more narrow confines of Fundamentalism
What you call evidence of Christ in their heart is what tells me you don’t know the difference between the saved and the lost.
Think about it: if “acting Christian” is what tells you someone is saved (which is why you have doubts about Joe and difficulty loving him), then who needs the Bible? Who needs the Cross? Let’s all join hands around the campfire and sing Kumbya, because all the nice people will go to heaven. So you disparage those of us who allegedly “mouth some dogma”. [/sarcasm]
You don’t seem to realize that is is never OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS that makes us Christians, but that of CHRIST. The moment we place faith in Him we have HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (caps for emphasis, not shouting). Do you actually think that being good is what makes you saved? Certainly we ALL need to be “better”, but not to get saved. Surely we should all strive to improve our behavior, but again, who among us is the arbiter of where Joe or me or anyone else must be at this point in time?
Sin is a whole different ballgame, but you’ve been focusing on bad manners, Stephen. Know the difference.
We’re getting down to what we’re trying to avoid here, Paula; but who appointed you the arbiter ofthe Dogma, Shibboleth Police?
There is a whole Grand Tradition of Christendom, much of which makes it possible for you to sitll live in relative peace and profess your dogmas, that doesn’t define the whose In andWho’s Out as narrowly as you do.
It’s a tricky business when someone holds themself up to know with Absolute Certainty who Knows and who doesn’t Know the True Narrow Way.
Way I read my New Testament, final Judge is Jesus and His Father; not Paula and Joe Blackmon, or CB Scott for that matter.
Nice example of projection going on there… Stephen et al go on and on about niceness and trying to dictate the tone of conversation, then accuse others of doing what they do. And that’s why I no longer try to converse with them.
QUOTE It’s a tricky business when someone holds themself up to know with Absolute Certainty who Knows and who doesn’t Know the True Narrow Way. END QUOTE
“Tricky business” perhaps, but doesn’t seem to stop you from trying.
Read the above for evidence of why I thank God for the CR.
Paula:
You said to Debbie:”Are you calling Joe a liar when he says he is trying to improve?”
Were is the evidence he is trying to improve? Please read his comments just in the last week to Debbie. I see none and I highly doubt anyone else does.
He told me so privately. He requested prayer. I have done so and continue to do so, as I would for any fellow believer. Why don’t you try it too?
Perhaps Joe doesn’t consider being nice to Debbie a sign of improvement
Paula:
You said:”And who decides that?
I’m sure that if we hung out everybody’s dirty laundry, we could say none of us act saved all the time. But if someone believes the facts about Jesus and has accepted Him as the only way to be reconciled to God, then all we can do about those who don’t act in line with NT principles (fruit of the Spirit) is try to help them see where they err. I don’t see anyone showing the tiniest bit of LOVE in their responses to Joe. If they consider him a believer on the basis of his testimony, then why don’t they practice what they preach: gentleness to fellow believers? Never mind whether Joe does this too; the question is why some people think they’re exempt as long as the victim is “not nice”.
I happen to know that Joe personally struggles with these things. He is trying. Isn’t that good enough for you? Why can you use the “trying” excuse then with God?
And given a choice between a Christian who isn’t nice but has the gospel right, and one who is outwardly nice but compromises the gospel, I’ll take the former every time, because I can count on them to proclaim the truth to the lost. The latter will send them straight to hell.”
Why are you so hung up about niceness? Do you not think that the lack of niceness also drives people straight to hell?
I really do not think Joe B or others will have an audience for more than 30 seconds with their lack of niceness.
Tom
Are there any similarities between the people who you think I am so mean to? What do they have in common in their theology? It can’t be just that they don’t agree with me because Paula and Lydia disagree with me on complementarianism and Calvinism. However, I am no longer “not nice” to them but I used to be until I realized something about them. What might that be?
Figure out the commonalities between those I am “not nice” to and I’ll bet you a Hardee’s thickburger you’ll know why I’m “not nice” to them.
See my comment above about “projection”.
Paula:
It appears you are a strong supporter of Joe B and I just do not think you’re going to find many that support his hatefulness.
But, by all means you can support his non-niceness.
You appear to believe he is getting the Gospel out.
I don’t support anybody’s hatefulness– even if it’s coated in 84 layers of syrup. You can support a weak, diluted “gospel” if you want.
Sheesh, what a soap opera. No matter how any of us “doctrinal” people try, the focus always turns on us personally, and then we have to defend ourselves.
The mosque is a sign of conquest. Those who think we’ll be better off under Sharia law can tell me how wonderful it is when the beheadings and bombings pick up steam here. But they can’t say nobody warned them.
“It’s a tricky business when someone holds themself up to know with Absolute Certainty who Knows and who doesn’t Know the True Narrow Way.”
The true narrow way is Jesus Christ. Period. No one comes to the Father but by ME.
We are seeing this all around us these days…redefining salvation and redefining Jesus. this way, more roads can lead to some generic god. Even Billy Graham (gasp) made a bizarre comment years ago about some being saved who never knew Jesus.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc00-105.htm
Paula:
You said:”The mosque is a sign of conquest. Those who think we’ll be better off under Sharia law can tell me how wonderful it is when the beheadings and bombings pick up steam here. But they can’t say nobody warned them.”
Now, you’ve gone and gotten me scared with such a comment. Thanks for warning me and the others about the beheadings and the bombings.
What a world of fear you and the others like yourself live in.
“Perfect love drives out fear”.
I fear nothing, Tom. Not even your personal attacks. I rest in the peace of God that is beyond understanding. But I would certainly fear God if I failed to warn of danger. You can belittle me as a fearmonger, hatemonger, or whatever monger makes you feel more self-righteous. But I’m following Jesus and shouting out the message of deliverance to all who will listen.
PS: Is your mockery an example of the loving, tolerant face you’d like to show all the Muslims?
Paula:
You’re just way out in the deep end of the pool with your approach, and I am glad you fear nothing, but I sure can not tell it by your blogging comments.
You said:”But I’m following Jesus and shouting out the message of deliverance to all who will listen.”
All I hear is your shouting. You are scaring me with your approach.
Scaring you? What do you fear will happen?
Jesus sometimes shouted; so did John the Baptist, and Paul, and Peter…
If the gospel is only to be whispered, as if we are ashamed of it, then I guess in your eyes I’m a flaming unbeliever.
So, Tom, is the god of Islam the same as the God who sent Jesus to die on the cross? Yes or no?
Paula:
You said to me:”Scaring you? What do you fear will happen? Jesus sometimes shouted; so did John the Baptist, and Paul, and Peter… If the…
I fear you will drive people away from the Gospel. Why the need to shout? What are you angry about?
If you were really concerned about the gospel you would oppose people who present a false gospel–that the god of Islam is the same as God, the Father of Jesus Christ.
Are you ashamed of the gospel of Christ, Tom? And why have you now added anger to your litany of accusations?
Seriously, Tom, you need to stop shooting the messenger. So you hate and fear my words; fine. What’s to stop you from whispering your own feel-good gospel? I’m not stopping you. How about you preach your message as you see fit, and I’ll preach mine as I see fit?
Hello folks,
Tom Parker,
I just read back through the comment thread. PLease direct me to a place wherein Paula “shouted” or showed the emotion of “anger” if you will?
Steve,
Why do you say Joe are negative to “interfaith” dialogue?
L’s,
The Ephesians passage you quote is about the gospel that had been hidden from generations in the past now being revealed to both Jew and Gentile.
The Jew and the Gentile, according to Paul, would be united by a common faith in Christ. In Christ alone.
Paul was not say that the Jew and the Gentile would be united, yet maintain their separate religions.
The passage you quote verifies the reality that Muslims, Jews, Pagans, etc, are to be united, it will be in the gospel of Christ alone. All must lay down those things which divide them and trust Christ alone.
There are no equal “faith communities” or “traditions” in the sight of God. There are those who embrace Christ alone and all others are equally lost and hopeless without Christ equally.
CB: Maybe I misunderstood but if say there are five folks on this board who would nominate you to having a gracious spirit and could see some sense of you being on a panel of good will when it came to interfaith dialogue I’d like to see it.
On this board seems to me the candidates would be
Bill Mac
Bill
Jack
Maybe Louis
and possibly Brandon
and Tom Parker
Christiane
Debbie
But I can’t imagine anybody thinks of you when they think of interfaith Dialogue.
Besides Ithought you were focussing on Family for a few days; not a bad idea.
How did your son do in the Cramden Bowl the other day and did Rick Lance make it to the game.
The South Pointe, NWestern Game on ESPN Saturday was a thriller.
Gaffney High faces NWestern later in the season.
Steve,
The one person I know for sure who thought of me for “interfaith dialogue” is Jesus. If not, he would not have burdened me to witness to those of other faiths.
There are some others who I can think of that might think of me when they think of interfaith dialogue. They are those of other faiths who are now Followers of Christ that Jesus used me to either plant seed or water seed before the Father gave the increase.
I am pretty sure there are more than five of them, although, I have never kept a score card on that subject.
Yep, the lobbing of gospel grenades has begun. With straw men arguments to add to the flavor. Come on guys you can do better than this. You are proving my point and I know you hate when you do that, so how about another method? Like dealing with facts. That would be new.
You mean that fact that the god of Islam is not the same as God, the Father of Jesus Christ? Or are you talking about the fact that God will not save any muslim based on their islamic faith? Or maybe you’re talking about the fact that no one who is saved by Jesus does not realize that He’s the one saving them (in other words, a good muslim is not demonstrating through his good behavior that he has been saved without realizing that Christ is doing the saving) ?”
In what sense was Joseph the Father of Jesus Christ?
Is there a possibility Paula and Joe Blackmon would have the courage in the next 10 days to a month drop by a Barnes and Noble and consider David MacCulloch’s grand book on the First 3,000 years of Christianity??
I would rather have someone who is less concerned about doctrine and more concerned about people, if I had to choose.
CS Lewis was constantly asked this question: Doctrine or deeds, which is more important?
He simply asked: Which side of the scissors blade is more important?
My former atheist boss was the most wonderful man alive. His compassion and integrity was far above any Christian I have met since. He helped so many people in so many ways not the least of which was financially. But he told me he believed Jesus was a nice man who walked the earth and definitely not God in the Flesh.
I still pray for his salvation but he is going to hell if he does not believe and trust that Jesus Christ is Lord. Period. His niceness will account for nothing.
Who would I rather tell folks about Jesus? Him or Joe?
Which again brings us back to the question, “Whose righteousness saves us: our own, or Jesus’?”
Debbie, you seem to just parrot what you read (e.g. lobbing grenades, straw man) and don’t engage arguments at all. You also create a false dilemma between doctrine and love, as if they are mutually exclusive. Either one alone is deficient. The real issue is how you can discard essential teachings of the faith and call it Christianity. The only reason we have to harp on those essentials is because you want to have a truth-less Christianity. But because we call you out on this omission, you think that’s ALL we care about!
Niceness will not save anyone. Doctrine alone will not save anyone. Only truth plus love saves; only the right Jesus saves. If you keep confusing “truth” with some evil, cold “doctrine” then we are in two different religions.
Why is this so hard to grasp? Why can’t Christians see in the NT that only the Jesus who rose from the dead can save? Why is the insistence that this is necessary turned into some bad thing? Isn’t it because the cross is offensive to the lost? Isn’t because some are willing to accept a counterfeit “Jesus” who knows nothing of sin or holiness or justice?
Those who truly love the lost will tell them the truth. Call that doctrine or hate or fear if you want, but I call it the gospel that saves. All other gospels are impostors.
Paula:You have been in a religion for a very long time. We have always been separate in Christianity. always. Again, you don’t deal with the issues, and the words I write are my own words, like them or not. Deal with it. But you are even lobbing insults. You do this every time you cannot deal with the issue. It gets rather tiresome. Niceness will save someone Paula. That is in scripture all over the place. You bet niceness saves and has saved a lot of people. It shows them Christ. It is what God uses to bring people to Christ. So you are very wrong there Paula. Relationships have brought people to salvation Paula. All yelling it out to someone does is either tries to shut them up, or just because your mad. So far that has one no one to Christ Paula.
that should be won no one. Your militant Paula and that’s not going to do anything to anyone but let them know they don’t want what you have. Using the Gospel as a weapon could be sin. It’s so blasphemous that is could be. I don’t know I haven’t studied it and I think it’s because I don’t want to know for sure. But boy is it wrong. Very very wrong. I just won’t let you use it as a weapon and you know I never have let you do that. You continue and I keep being that thorn coming in to say stop. It’s hard to sit back and watch you continually beat people with the Bible Paula. The Gospel was never meant to be a weapon. So cut it out and you won’t hear a sound from me.
Debbie,
Are you saying Paula has no right to be in this discussion? I hope not. Maybe you should edit your comment a little there, maybe?
Paula has not “beat people with the Bible” here. She just seems more dependent on it than others.
Yes Paula the cross is offensive to the lost, but you don’t need to be. I think that more people are offended by your tactics and those who called you into this discussion knowing your tactics, than they are the cross.
The Bible teaches us we will be offensive to the world Debbie if we proclaim the truth of the gospel.
I believe that which offends the world about Paula’s presentation of the gospel glorifies the Father.
CB, thanks for your comments.
Debbie, L’s, etc. really do think I have no right to this or any other conversation. They want to control and micromanage every blog I show up in, then make me the villain by accusing me of what they do themselves. I ask them to just let the Spirit decide what each of us should say, and never try to keep them from saying what they do. But that’s never good enough for them; they want me silenced. They want me to be just like them instead of following the examples I see in scripture. They are intolerant of ideas that differ from their own, and wish to control everyone’s behavior. Their focus is always on the people instead of the argument, and then they whine that those of us focused on the argument need to shift to where they want it. It’s maddening.
So in short, it’s their way or the highway, and rebels against their way are to be hated more than Satan himself.
I appreciate cb calling Paula into this discussion. She, unlike you, stands for the exclusivity of salvation by grace alone through Christ alone for everyone who repents of their sins. She would never even think of contacting a lost man and not sharing the gospel with him. I’ve never once heard the ridiculous, unbiblical suggestion from her that “faith trumps belief”. She has never told someone who doesn’t believe the gospel that they’re saved.
In other words, she’s nothing like you.
Paula, doesn’t offend me! In fact, I think her viewpoint concerning you, L’s and Tom is dead on. Sadly, you can’t see the log in your own eye, and you have no friend who will help you see it.
Aw, thanks guys! ::sniff:: God knows even cold, unloving, hateful, fearful louts like me need a kind word now and then.
Which only highlights the hypocrisy of those who say “love, peace, tolerance” to only those who already agree with them. Somehow the rest of us don’t get the same treatment.
Debbie (why I’m still talking to you at all, I don’t know),
I left “religion” years ago in favor of the NT model of relationship with God. The Bible is His Word and doesn’t change like emotions that can be affected by what you ate for breakfast. I rely on it because it is the unchanging truth about God and salvation. I try to convince others that they too should leave “religion” and come to Jesus, one on one.
So if you are someplace else, you are missing out on something fantastic. If we are separated, then I have to wonder where you are in relationship to Christ. I don’t write “my own words” but quote scripture because only those Words have power and truth and infallibility. My words mean nothing, but God’s words mean everything.
You keep repeating yourself and projecting your own faults on me and others, which is why I know that what I’m typing right now is more for the benefit of others reading this than you. You keep barking orders like “deal with it” and call that “confrontation” while remaining utterly blind to the giant log in your own eye and the double standard I’ve already pointed out to you.
So you preach the gospel of Niceness; great. Are you saying you’re actually nice enough to EARN a free gift that can only come from the PERFECTION of Jesus? That’s not only arrogant but foolhardy! As I asked in another comment, whose righteousness gets you into heaven? Yours? If you think so, as you have made so clear just now, then you are lost. That’s scripture talking, not me. And it follows that if niceness doesn’t save anyone, then all the nice people of Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, and all the other isms are lost. Lost, Debbie… because YOU refused to tell them about the exclusive demands of Jesus.
God will show you who’s wrong, but by then it will be too late.
Hi DEBBIE,
“I would rather have someone who is less concerned about doctrine and more concerned about people, if I had to choose.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POm7_WBMJTI
The Spirit blows where He will . . .
Debbie and L’s,
Without biblical doctrine, there can be no biblical concept of “concern about people.”
A dichotomy which permits the preaching of the Gospel,
while those who preach
are STILL IN their own blindness to the suffering of others,
may NOT be allowed by the Holy One indefinitely,
hence, ‘Spirit blows where He will’
The Gospel of Christ transforms the lives of the selfish,
as the Holy Spirit reveals its fullness to them.
L’s,
Try on my definition of preaching for size and see how it fits.
“Preaching is the sharing of the gospel story by a learned sinner to those who have yet learned the gospel story.”
Naturally, that definition need to be “unpacked” but that is what I believe gospel preaching to be.
One has to know the truth of the gospel to preach the gospel. (By “preach” the gospel, I mean “share” the gospel in this context.)
Knowing the gospel well enough to share it, involves doctrinal understanding to some degree.
But not the Doctrine and Dogma of Vines. Pressler and Adrian Rogers, CB. That is your stumbling Block, where you miss the Point and Miss it badly; by at least three or four football fields.
Steve,
The men you have named here articulate the gospel exactly as the Scripture reveals it.
If not, I wish you would be willing to explain, in your own words, wherein they have failed to do so.
Not true CB. When God changes a heart, that comes first. Doctrine comes later. Ever seen a newly saved person? Most times? They love everybody and they usually don’t know a lick of doctrine. Those actually are the best kind.
Debbie,
That is absurd. The first thing a person learns from the Spirit even before conversion is a doctrinal truth.
That truth is: You are lost, repent and believe the gospel.
Debbie, the first sermon from Jesus was a doctrinal sermon. (Mark 1:14)
Be careful Debbie.
Would you say a person is not needful of the presence of the conviction of the Holy Spirit as to the doctrinal truth of his lostness “before” he is saved?
Think about that before you answer. What truth does the Holy Spirit convict a lost person of if not doctrinal truth?
CB: You said “Without biblical doctrine, there can be no biblical concept of “concern about people.”
That is not true CB. I was answering this question and suddenly you are going further and further as if I had just committed heresy. When God does a work in a person’s heart, who does not know a lick of doctrine, they love people. Period. Then you begin going into a further discussion that was not in this statement. I stand by my statement as true and Biblical. Love does not require right doctrine, or doctrine of any kind, it is the result of the salvation which is given yes. Salvation is a result of hearing. Love however is a result of salvation and not a result of hearing necessarily. It’s who the true born again Christian is. They can’t help it.
In fact I’ll go even further and say that this is one way of several to know whether a person is truly born again or not.
Debbie,
You are right. “Love” does not require doctrine.
But Debbie, “biblical, Christian love” does require doctrine.
Notice this again: Would you say a person is not needful of the presence of the conviction of the Holy Spirit as to the doctrinal truth of his lostness “before” he is saved?
What truth does the Holy Spirit convict a lost person of if not doctrinal truth?
Debbie, I did not accuse you of heresy. I said your statement was absurd. There is a difference. Saying something absurd does not constitute heresy. If so we would all be heretics, right?
I simply pointed out a biblical and doctrinal inconsistency in what you wrote. Nothing more, nothing less.
Exactly. It consisted of Repent and Believe. (warm and fuzzy?)
“..and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
I understand where Debbie is coming from because I was in the seeker world for so long. and this is exactly what they teach: If they like you, they will like your Jesus. That sounds good in theory. In practice it can easily become a disaster.
The problem is, they stay in that ‘please like me’ mode for so long, the gospel gets lost and it only becomes about horiztonal relationships and not the all important vertical one. (Seeker lingo) Many do not even realize they are diluting the Gospel to make it more palitable. Sort of spoon feeding some watered down gruel and seeing what comes back up.
And they think anyone who does not do this will only be mean to people and “yell” the gospel at them as Debbie has accused me and Paula of doing. They must picture a gang fo female Fred Phelps standing on street corners with bullhorns raising fists and yelling John 3:16.
But their view makes one wonder why on earth Jesus would instruct something really mean like this when sending out the disciples early on:
13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!
I realize it is hard to make distinctions within the blog discussion but I doubt it has occured to Debbie that there is a huge difference between a unbeliever and one who claims to be able to teach others the Word. When the latter makes absurd and hypocritical statements, they should be corrected and confronted. I welcome that myself, but be prepared for a debate if you do. Not based on emotional hurt feelings and not parroting what someone else has taught her but a serious “content” debate.
And CB is right. The cross is offensive. As a matter of fact, it is so offensive, we in Christendom, have done everything we can to make it less offensive and in the process diluted the meaning and exclusivity of Christ. Mormons are Christians, too? Well, then, Jesus certainly did not need to go to the Cross then, did He?. Allah is the God of Abraham? Then what was the reason for Jesus Christ if Muslims do not need a Savior to be saved?
All can come. But only through Jesus Christ who was God in the flesh. That makes people angry. They do not like it because it seems “unfair” to those who believe other ways.
Let us honor Jesus Christ and tell the truth about Him. Let us always remember that we are to love Jesus Christ MORE than any human. But at the same time, love people enough to tell them the truth even if it makes them our enemies. (Gal 4:16)
Amen, Lydia.
Debbie,
Biblical love is an indicator. You are right. Jesus also said, “If you continue in my Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine.” The “My Word” there is doctrine Debbie.
Isn’t biblical love doctrine? How do we know how to love biblical? Is that teaching? Sadly, Debbie confuses biblical love with her own definition of love.
Jeff, this is exactly the same as the old philosophical issue with the statement, “There are no absolutes”. It is self-contradicting, because the statement itself is an absolute.
Likewise, to have a doctrine-free religion is an oxymoron, an absurdity, an impossibility. Even Debbie has doctrine: faith trumps belief (among other things). It is an absolute to her, and therefore her own doctrine. She even beats people over the head with it and calls her beatings “confrontation”.
People are funny.
Some of the biggest impostors Ihave been acquainted with in my lifetime, and where not impostors were woefully inadequate and imperfect are:
Adrian Rogers–no offense to his Son David who I consider a friend
Billy Graham
Jerry Falwell
WA Criswell
Jerry Vines
Bobby Welch
Bailey Smith
Ed Young
Paige Patterson
Ronnie Floyd
Paul Pressler
Al Mohler
Joe Blackmon
Steve,
How many of those men you name as impostors do you actually know?
I personally know/knew each of those men you name with the exception of Graham and Blackmon and do not consider any of them to be impostors.
I have read and heard Graham. I have read Blackmon. I do not see, based upon what I have read that either of them are impostors.
Steve,
You said earlier, the “Way I read my New Testament, final Judge is Jesus and His Father; not Paula and Joe Blackmon, or CB Scott for that matter.”
Yet, you judge these man as impostors. There seems to be an inconsistency there, does it not?
Up against, George Truett, Judge Frank Johnson,Marney, Stewart Newman, Cecil Sherman, LD Johnson,Jimmy Allen and Randall Lolley; in that framework they are Impostors, Pretenders to the Best of Baptist Witness in its 400 years.
Steve,
The men you are being critical of here have never, to the man never, claimed to be “the Best of Baptist Witness in its 400 years.”
You are crediting them with a claim not one of them have ever made.
I’m sorry CB, but they came across that way to me.
I mean if they have the gall in what they consider the Will of God to displace a whole generation of some of the Best and Brightest of a Baptist Generation, then seems to me they would have to think pretty highly of themselves.
I think you have a false sense of what Humility and one’s estimations of one’s true gifts in relation to their peers really is; or something like that.
Steve,
I have never been one to claim a corner market on any kind of “humility” whatsoever. In the humility test, I will fail every time.
But this I know,
Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, WA Criswell, Jerry Vines, Bobby Welch, Bailey Smith, Ed Young, Paige Patterson, Ronnie Floyd, Paul Pressler, Al Mohler and Joe Blackmon all articulate the gospel as the Scripture reveals it.
You are wrong to say otherwise. You are also wrong to say they are impostors.
Steve, you make these bold accusations, yet fail to present how they are impostors or how they fail to articulate the biblical gospel. The fact that you dislike these men does not in and of itself constitute accuracy in your claims against them.
I wouldn’t know that Steve reads the N.T. by the way he quotes men.
CB:
Welcome back. You must be the hall monitor.
CB:
You said to Debbie and L’s–”Without biblical doctrine, there can be no biblical concept of “concern about people.”
I really do not think they have said that, CB.
Tom Parker,
I really hope you are right and I misunderstand completely.
What did they mean if you would be willing to grant my the information to understand?
A man lists a number of people he considers spiritually inadequate. I’ve looked at that list, then I considered the previous posts from that man, and it makes me sick to my stomach.
I don’t know the men that this man considers the “Best of the Last 400 .” He may be right about this list, but if they are truly men of God, I think they would cringe to read what this man has said about others.
I cannot imagine George W. Truett ever speaking about a fellow baptist like this man does.
I’ve seen some “low posts,” but this guy’s below the bottom.
SSBN, have you read your own posts lately.
Where SSBN would you place Bobby Welch’s statement at the Evangelist Luncheon of the SBC 84 where He said: “We’ve Got Liberals”"
In the context of what that meant in the times it was spoken, how low do you rate that remark when you start searching for the bottom in Baptist life.
The Peace Committee agreed with Bobby Welch’s position in saying, “We’ve got Liberals.”
Welch was a demagogue in that statement and you read it in the context and timing of which he said it and if lynchin were a possibility Welch woulda been happy with what the crowd he was stokin woulda done.
To the man I won’t name:
I don’t remember any post in which I called any Baptist an “impostor,” or other perjorative terms you regularly use. I feel sorry for someone who has to always put other people down.
PS — Quite frankly, I don’t think most of the Christians I know come close to the passion for souls that Bobby Welch does. And, the man I won’t name could even carry Bobby’s water when it comes to bravery, courage, and sacrifice.
Then it must be true that SSBN and I have met somewhere. At least we both know the “same” Bobby Welch.
Read Charles Marsh’s Wayward Christian Soldiers for the excesses your Man of God goes to in his Zeal.
Steve,
I don’t need to read Marsh on Welch. I know the man. I have known him for years. I know him better than Marsh. Bobby Welch is a man of God.
Why do you always have to bring up the subject of the CR? Can you not engage in a dialogue without venting about the CR?
Why are you so obsessed with that topic?
I would rather read the Bible! Charles Marsh is an imposter.
You won’t even name yourself so I guess we got a nameless conversation going on here.
Look at the Baptist advocate at the heart of the takeover. That should be the reference point for this nameless conversation, the rhetoric that Charles Kell examines in Tongues of Fire.
SSBN,
I have seen a lot of people say that Jimmy Carter was ‘not a Christian’ and I could NEVER understand it. They gave the strangest reasons, but I think it had more to do with him not agreeing with what they espoused, rather than with him not following Our Lord.
For many people, Jimmy Carter stands out as a follower of Christ.
No, it actually had everything to do with the fact that he said Mormons are Christians. If he believes that, and he said it so he must believe it, then he does not understand the gospel as revealed in scripture. Mormons worship a different god, a different jesus, and proclaim a different gospel.
Joe,
Yep. He said it in an interview with MSNBC’s Newsweek.
Lisa Miller asked: Do you think a Mormon is a Christian?
Jimmy Carter replied: Yes, I do. I have a cousin who is a Mormon and she married one of the Marriott family. I don’t know anyone who’s more devout in their faith than she and her family. I admire them very much.
Paige Patterson thought WA Criswell was a Christian and Jesse Helms too, so I’m not sure what you are proving, Mark.
Well, to anyone other than a mental midget (that would be you, Stevven) he’s providing the link that I didn’t have when I posted the comment that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Carter did not know the gospel. Therefore, Carter cannot possibly have believed the gospel.
Jimmy Carter isn’t a Christian no matter how much Cough-man, Don Quixote, or L’s want to say he is. Faith does NOT trump belief.
But JOE,
there is no ‘different god’
Their god was once a man. God has always been just God. He never had a beginning.
That is decidedly a different god.
Joe, there are no other ‘gods’
L’s
You’re right. Their “god” is not real. it’s a figment of their immagination. It most certainly isn’t the God who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
Again, they claim their god was once a man. God was never a man. God has always existed as God and never had a beginning.
Therefore they worship a different god–a god who doesn’t exist. They are not Christians.
This is the part where I tell you to “deal with it”.
Deal with it.
Christiane, Why does God command the Jews to have no other gods? (Exodus 30:3)? In one sense you are right, but in another sense you are wrong. The god of the muslims, mormons, and RCC is the god created in the image of men. It is the perversion of the only true and living God. They are idols.
It’s the subtle equivocation L’s uses that exasperates people. Let me try and illustrate, for any who might sense this but can’t quite put their finger on it.
She says “Religion X believes in God.”
We say “There is only one God.”
She says “I agree.”
But what she ISN’T saying is “I agree that the god of Religion X is an impostor”, but “Since there is only one God, then every religion worships that one God, regardless of what they call him or what they believe about him.”
In other words, she presents the two premises of a syllogism, but leaves the conclusion to implication; since it is unstated, she cannot be held to account for it or required to define it. And “one God” is redefined on the fly, resulting in people talking past each other but never knowing why.
The pivotal point is not only that there is one true God, but that we have to be able to identify and distinguish that God, or we can never say why Religion X doesn’t have him. So we point out that God is (1)unique, (2)exclusive, and (3)requires faith in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Jesus. Any other religion’s so-called god is a fake since it does not meet these criteria. (To clarify, by 2 above I mean that we cannot simply add Jesus to existing beliefs or dismiss facts about Jesus to accommodate them.)
“But what she ISN’T saying is “I agree that the god of Religion X is an impostor”, but “Since there is only one God, then every religion worships that one God, regardless of what they call him or what they believe about him.”
Bingo!
Three of my closest friend have attended his Sunday School classes in Plains on more than one occasion and have no Doubts about his Faith in Christ.
Jimmy Allen and President Underwood of Mercer have Studied his walk with Jesus. There is much evidence of Carter’s FAith in Jesus Christ,much more evidence than for Frank GRaham or WA Criswell.
If someone does not know what it takes to become a Christian (for example Jimmy Carter) then how did they become a Christian?
Unless you are a universalist, then someone cannot become a Christian without knowing how to do so.
Perhaps Jimmy Carter is “Christian-like,” but I don’t know how you can get to the right destination going in the wrong direction.
Yeah, because no matter how often Don Quixote and Cough-man blather about faith trumping belief, God has said that no one will go to heaven except by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone.
Further, no one saved by Christ doesn’t realize that He’s the one saving them.
This is a recording.
Joe: You left out that I have written, Wade has said, written, you can hear it in his sermons. That repentance is the result of salvation and being born again, not a cause. The book of James goes well with Romans because James is the result of salvation, not the cause of it. Feel free to look on back posts of my blog. I have said this over and over again. Yet you continually feel you have to tell half the story or none of the real story.
You forgot something, Joe.
the ‘caveat’ ?
Yeah, L’s
I don’t have that saved a text file and it bores me to tears to retype something that EVERYONE else knows. No one else thought that I was saying those who are mentally disabled and unable to understand and believe will go to hell because they don’t have the mental capacity that others do.
Everyone.Else.Knew.That.
You only bring it up because you don’t want to deal with the facts of the gospel.
Debbie
Muzzle it, toots.
There was nothing in what I wrote that mentioned something resembling anything as to when someone repented.
My ponit was that just because in Enid “Faith trumps belief” Jimmy Carter’s lack of believing the biblical gospel means he is not saved.
If you don’t believe the gospel, you’re not saved by that gospel.
Joe: You don’t know me very well do you?
Jimmy Carter doesn’t know what a Christian is. That’s laughable and makes you look like a Fool
Steve,
What does it say of you when you make similar remarks about Criswell, Rogers, Welch, etc?
Look in the mirror at some of the things you wrote Fox. Calling Criswell a lost person. You are indeed a fool.
Jefty: I got my hands on a copy of Keith Durso’s biography of Criswell’s predecessor George Truett at FBC Dallas.
Was reading Louie D. Newton’s eulogy of Truett in 1944 at FBC Dallas.
Newton and Truett’s brand of Baptist Tradition was usurped, displaced by Criswell.
So in the Baptist sense for sure Criswell lost his way. And the SBC has paid the tragic price.
I remember Randall Lolley’s classmate Bill Self, former pastor of Wieuca Rd BC in Atlanta and his great Sermon of 86 “Why I am a Baptist” talking about the overwhelming tears and grief that overcame him as a pallbearer for Louie D Newton; convinced in the Death of Newton and the things that were happening to his and Truett’sSBC were something foreign to the Best of the Baptist Tradition.
That is not a small thing and speaks of Criswell’s Lostness.
Steve, I have my hands on the Bible, and it has greater authority and speaks of why I believe Criswell was a Christian. Therein is your problem Steve, you follow men. You accuse us of being clones of men like Criswell, but you do nothing but quote men.
Jeff
Jeff:
Here is a quote from the Bible:
These then died in Faith, Not having Received the Promises, but having seen them afar off, they were persuaded of them and Embraced them and Confessed they were Strangers and Pilgrims on the Earth.
Just so you know that I know My Bible.
How does that apply to the discussion?
Mercer, there’s a credible school. NOT!
In one of Jimmy Carters books he said while he was President that he invited representatives of the SBC for a visit in the oval office. I’m sure he was being courteous as he didn’t need their help running the Country. In his book he says they insulted him. They also according to Carter’s book called him a “secular huminist” to which he replied he didn’t know what they were talking about -i.e. what that meant. Hev was a commander of a nuclear submarine in which men of all colors work closely together in harmony. I wish I knew who they were.
Al Moher and company, Jack, were disciples of Francis Schaeffer the guru of the secular Humanism differential, that allegedly through Ed McAteer, Adrian Rogers picked up on to distinguish himself from Carter.
Since then Both Adrian and his son David have said Carter misrepresented their comment in that meeting.
David comes across to me as having a good heart, but I think he may be picking at straws as was his Father. It is a matter of record Rogers had a sermon on secular humanism that became a widely circulated tape some say he campaigned on to become Prez of the SBC in 79.
Now the product of all Rogers and Ed McAteer’s energies,Richard Land, is calling Mormonism the Fourth Abrahamic Faith. It is all quite curious.
http://www.thebigdaddyweave.com/2010/08/richard-land-vs-russell-moore-southern-baptist-ethicists-differ-on-glenn-beck.html
Adrian Rogers classmate, Robert Marsh at NOBTS; the Marsh son Charles has written about how Schaeffer went arry in distinction to Billy Graham at the Lausanne Covenant of 74.
And just yesterday, evangelical scholar and good friend of Mark Noll of Ridgecrest fame in SBC circles; Randall Balmer at religion dispatches asserted Franklin Graham has taken a reverse pilgrimage from his Father Billy, which Balmer says in Billy’s case was from fundamentalism to evangelicalism.
I think Steven Miller may have some nuances of that.
Point being it is hard to keep track of unless you have the best of scorecards; or even with the Best of scorecards.
As I remarked somewhere at some point, Chris Matthews got it right when he said we are now talking about the History of the Great state of Pennsylvania.
First I’ve heard of the Carter MSNBC interview. I don’t believe those comments were in his books which makes me wonder how old he was when he did say it. But it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t change the facts, Carter isn’t running for anything and mormons at least some believe their Christians. Maybe their definition of Christian is different from the definition I’m use to reading. Our problem is that they are selling their brand to Baptists who are too dumb to realise their being double talked and don’t know their own religion very well in order to ask questions; otherwise they’d thrpw in thw towel and leave because what they have is poppycock. Some of the students in seminary arem’t given the whole truth as the SBC is against the masons and wrote that in the GCR. I don’t care and it’s getting so that more and more don’t care either.
Allright, let’s have a show of hands:
How many think we get to heaven by even a smidgen of our own righteousness?
Take your time…
Given that no one appears to believe even a smidgen of our own righteousness can save us, then pray tell, how do nice unbelievers get saved?
Paula, Sadly, they don’t unless they repent and put their faith in Christ, the Son of God, God in the Flesh, Lord of Hosts, Immanuel.
Exactly, Lydia. We know this as the scriptural position, not one we made up or tweaked out of proof-texts or invented by redefining words.
And it follows of course that if our righteousness cannot save us, but only that of Jesus, then only those who have the Jesus who rose from the dead can be saved.
And THAT means every other religion is false, and all their followers, no matter how nice, are lost. No one is saved by niceness. No one… not Jimmy Carter, not the Muslim next door, not Mother Theresa, not Ghandi, not anybody.
Only Jesus was ever HOLY enough to enter heaven as a human being, and only those who have Him share His righteousness.
This has been the understanding of any reputable Christians since Jesus’ apostles. Scripture has not changed; Jesus has not changed; truth has not changed. But the “church” has changed; it has lost its first love and committed adultery with every nice “lover” that comes along. It’s pathetic.
Now JOE,
“You only bring it up because you don’t want to deal with the facts of the gospel.”
No, I didn’t. When you write something like this: “Further, no one saved by Christ doesn’t realize that He’s the one saving them.” , you’re wrong.
Use the ‘caveat’, Joe. It’s the right thing to do.
If it is too much work to type it out, then put it on file, and you can ‘copy’ and ‘paste’.
It’s important, Joe. Very, very, very important. I think you know that.
No one, and I mean no one, thinks I meant people who are mentally unable to understand the gospel and beleive it because of some accident or birth defect are going to hell because of that.
So, I’ll type out the caveat everytime I proclaim the gospel when you’re able to articulate the gospel. Until you get that right, you need to worry about getting that right.
When you write something like this: “Further, no one saved by Christ doesn’t realize that He’s the one saving them.” , you’re wrong.
And I’ll keep reminding you, Joe.
So you remember. That’s important.
L’s,
I don’t think your reference is to the mentally impaired is it? I think you actually think as some do, that there are people who are saved who are of some other religion, by Christ, but they do not realize it is Jesus moving in their lives. You seem to be taking the same position that Campolo took.
It is you that is wrong L’s. People do not become the children of God without the gospel of Christ.
There is no need for Joe to present the “caveat” you speak of here, using it as a strawman to hamper the truth of what Joe is saying. As Joe stated, “no one, thinks I meant people who are mentally unable to understand the gospel and beleive it because of some accident or birth defect….”
“I have seen a lot of people say that Jimmy Carter was ‘not a Christian’ and I could NEVER understand it. They gave the strangest reasons, but I think it had more to do with him not agreeing with what they espoused, rather than with him not following Our Lord. ”
All I can say is that I am concerned because of his statement that Mormons are Christians that he does not understand WHO Jesus Christ really is. Perhaps he simply is ignorant of what Mormons teach about Jesus Christ. But for someone in his position he really should know before he speaks out like that. The damage he could do with his influence is great.
What do Mormons believe?
That Jesus and Satan are spiritual brothers and both sons of God. Jesus chose God’s plan for salvation but Satan wanted to do his own plan. Jesus’ spirit was given to Mary to have him as a human…then you go through the whole thing with Jesus on earth and crucified but when he rose; His diety was established at that point.
Oh, and if you live a perfect life on earth as a mormon, you can become a ‘god’ in the afterlife. It is a very legalistic cultish religion.
So, they do not have Jesus Christ, Lord of Hosts, as part of the Trinity. They claim He was NOT God until his resurrection. They tout Him as a Savior but deny He has always been God. That is a lie straight from satan.
All cults tamper with the Trinity. Mormon / LDS is one of them. Always be on watch for this…because they always do something with Jesus Christ to make Him something “lesser” than the Trinitarian God.
THAT is why we should be concerned about what Jimmy Carter said. As friend once told me, we are not diplomats, we are defenders of the truth. There is other path to salvatoin. It is ONLY through Jesus Christ, God in the Flesh, that we are saved.
“There is other path to salvatoin”
Ah hem, that should read, there is NO other path to salvation.
Richard Land to whom SBC CP dollars go stood with Glenn Beck on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial on Saturday.
Steve,
I weighed in at Tim Rogers’ blog on the Beck-Land connection. You might be surprised at my position.
Joe Blow:
When you say the following to Debbie K:”Debbie
Muzzle it, toots.
There was nothing in what I wrote that mentioned something resembling anything as to when someone repented.
My ponit was that just because in Enid “Faith trumps belief” Jimmy Carter’s lack of believing the biblical gospel means he is not saved.
If you don’t believe the gospel, you’re not saved by that gospel.”
You show once again how hateful of an individual you really are.
Are you sure, very sure, Christ knows you??
Lydia:
I think you are very wrong when you say Debbie K is in the seeker world. You guys are trying to make this about Debbie K. It is not about her, it is about the way the Gospel is presented to people. Yes the cross is offensive, but we are not to be so offensive in the way we present the Gospel that we drive people away.
Well Tom, You need to tell me what I am doing that is offensive when I share the Gospel with people. Of course, you do not know because you are not there.
I can only go by Debbie’s words here and she makes great leaps in conclusions that do not exist.
“You guys are trying to make this about Debbie K”
LOL!!!! The side that’s been making this all about us doesn’t like the taste of their own medicine.
Tom Parker,
That is really not true, no joke. We have been making a joint statement that the god of Islam is not the God of the Bible.
We have also been saying the only way to peace with God is through the Atonement of Christ alone.
Debbie and L’s along with Steve have ridiculed us for that and branded us as hatemongers. That is really what has happened here.
Why you refuse to see that, I do not understand. I think you know the gospel. I read some comments you made last evening on Debbie’s Beck post that were very good and solid. Yet, you come here and make this a personality issue. Its not.
“When God does a work in a person’s heart, who does not know a lick of doctrine, they love people. Period.”
Debbie, When a person is saved the Holy Spirit puts within them a desire to KNOW truth. ..think about it…if someone claims to be saved but could care less about learning or knowing anything more about Christ/The Word, one should worry. The Holy Spirit puts a hunger and thirst for the Word, for prayer within them.
One reason why your version of “love” scares me is because so many people have no discernment. Anyone can act nice. I see this all the time. As a matter of fact, I think one of the biggest problems we have in Christendom is that we tend to fall for flattery. Flattery is a sin. We think a guy on stage, whom we have only shaken hands with, is a supernice guy and deep Christian. yet, we have NO idea how he treats his wife at home or whether he goes home and kicks his dog around. We have become so shallow and idolatrous.
I could pretend to be loving and nice and yet hate people. I could do this in order to get what I want. So, beware. Not all outward nice is inward nice. There are lots of people out there in Christendom faking it. I know, I worked with them and was one myself.
Give me real. That is one reason I can take Joe. He might be a curmudgeon, but at least he is not whipping up flattery creme with which to serve up his insults.
“….yet, we have NO idea how he treats his wife at home or whether he goes home and kicks his dog around. We have become so shallow and idolatrous.”
Lydia,
I am afraid that your statement has become far too true in our Christian culture today.
The private life must be holy or the public life is nothing but a sham. No wonder so many are falling for the “Gospel of Nice.” They have experienced too much of the “sham” at home when they were young.
And it is such people who are really the ones giving the gospel a bad name, not we who defend the gospel.
What our opponents here still fail to grasp is that doctrine and love are two sides of the same coin, and neither can exist alone. Doctrine alone is indeed cold and evil; love alone is spineless and deceptive, leading people happily to hell. But put the two together and they keep each other from extremes.
They think love means never being negative (yet don’t hesitate to be negative on all who disagree with them!). They think love is niceness and never standing for principle. They think love is at odds with justice or holiness. It is this fake definition of love that they confuse with the real love in scripture.
“Doctrine alone is indeed cold and evil; love alone is spineless and deceptive, leading people happily to hell. But put the two together and they keep each other from extremes.”
The above is exceptionally well stated.
Paula, I am positive I will use this somewhere. Hopefully, I will maintain adequate integrity to give you credit for such a concise and accurate statement……But don’t count on it.
I’d be honored, either way.
Lydia:
You said:”Give me real. That is one reason I can take Joe. He might be a curmudgeon, but at least he is not whipping up flattery creme with which to serve up his insults.”
Oh, Joe Blow is real all right. I quess you are saying it is better to know that he is the man when it comes to insults.
That you and Paula and others think so highly of Joe Blow makes it real hard for me to take your christianity seriously.
All of this–its ok Joe–you go ahead and insult people all the time and show how chrsitian you are makes me physically sick.
Tom Parker,
Why do you say things like, “makes me physically sick” the way you do?
You are talking to another guy and you say stuff like that. Cut that junk out. Talk like a regular guy.
If you want to whack on Joe, say stuff like, “Joe, you scum bag, jerk, you make me want to puke!!”
See how it works Tom Parker? Say stuff like that to him. Then he won’t laugh at you and call you a sissy.
Let’s compare the right and wrong way to do guy talk:
Wrong way = Joe, you make me physically sick.
Right way = Joe, you make me wanna puke, you jerk!!
You see Tom Parker? When you say stuff like a regular guy it has some “punch” to it!!
Now try that and see how it works for you. Because when you say it the other way, it makes me wanna puke.
CB,
Real men never use more than one exclamation point. And they use them sparingly, if ever. I think that is in a CBMW rule book somewhere.
)
By the way, here are instructions for the proper man hug:
http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-give-a-great-man-to-man-hug
Lydia,
I am still trying to get over the time when some of the BI guys had to explain to me what Les Puryear meant when he was talking about a “man crush.”
Please don’t confuse me with the “man Hug.”
True story: Not long back John Killian and I were in a meeting with a bunch of preachers. At the end of the meeting, the leader asked that we all stand and get in a circle and hold hands and pray. John and I told the guy, “No. We will pray about this, but we are not going to hold your hands and close our eyes.”
One of the guys next to me said I had “hurt his feelings” by saying that. And he was serious.
Tom, You do not get it and that is ok. I can only explain the best I can. I will try again but it is not going to be pretty. And Joe might not speak to me again.
I think Joe does you all a great service which saddens me. His insults actually helps you all continue to put forth what I think has implications of a false Gospel or at least a diluted one. I mean, seriously, the world will see the mean Joe and the nice Mormon and will think the Mormon is the true Christian because of personality…not truth. That is how the world works. Feelings trump truth.
I do NOT condone Joe’s insults. I think they are childish. But behind those insults he believes in the TRUE JESUS CHRIST. That is what I defend. NOT THE WAY he says it.
I have been around some amazing fakes in Christendom throughout my career. I mean some biggies. Some so fake that I question whether they are saved or not because who they are on stage is NOTHING like who they are behind the drapes or in meetings or even on the airplane.
If Joe were not insulting, I think some might be able to see through the false Jesus that Christiane will subtly slip in and out of comments. I know some will be outraged I dare say that but what else can I do when I see the false flattery and the subtle false teaching. You have mistaken flattery and niceness for truth. More and more Christians are doing that.
Lydia, you know I agree with you. But at the same time, we can see that even without Joe, ALL of us are branded as mean and hateful and fearful. It really doesn’t matter how we say anything; what matters to them is what we say, and that’s the non-negotiable gospel of faith alone in Christ alone. They can’t stand that “narrow” way. Granted, Joe goes overboard, but as I’ve pointed out, at least he knows it and is trying to deal with it. Not so for the other side, whose “rubber hose” technique is much more deadly. Just sayin’.
Joe knows the gospel. I’ve already explained the bit about his intent to improve behavior, request for pray in that regard, and confronted Debbie about calling us liars.
But you, Debbie, L’s etc. don’t know the gospel; you think “faith trumps belief” and niceness is the new way, truth, and life.
And this jab at Joe comes from a guy whose own hate and poor behavior drips from every comment. Clean your own house first.
Paula:
Your’re saying Joe Blow knows the Gospel and is trying to do better is down right laughable. Please tell me that you are kidding.
If he was insulting you like he does Debbie and others would your HIGH OPINION of him remain?
Tom, You sir are laughable also, you use the very tactics Joe uses. Debbie does too. There is a forrest in your eye…..
That’s right, Jeff. Tom continually says “Joe Blow” and then beats Joe over the head for being mean. He and Debbie can throw invective around like there’s no tomorrow, but it’s only mean if one of us does it. The playing field ain’t level and dey aims ta keep it da way.
Paula:
Please wake up from your dream that I am your opponent.
I’ll say it again your world of all these fears must be an awful one–the beheadings and all. Also I still think you are dreaming about Joe Blow, but I see why you like him as he operates out of the same playbook that you and others do.
It appears that you believe there are only a few true Christians and you consider yourself to be one and you also believe Joey is one.
The rest of us are surely hopelessly lost.
Carry on crusader.
Tom, you have made it abundantly clear that I am your enemy. Don’t try to deny it any more. You might also want to consider giving up on your favorite straw man: that I live in fear. But you clearly do live in fear, of me and Lydia and Joe and….
And please, for the love of God, get that log out of your eye. You hurl insults in every comment, so it is YOU who use the same playbook as Joe. But people with their heads in the sand can’t see too much.
It appears that you believe there are only a few true Christians and you consider yourself to be one and you also believe Debbie is one. The rest of us are surely hopelessly lost.
How does that medicine taste on the way back, Tom? And you can carry on too. Be my guest.
I take it that rational discourse has all but ceased in this blog. So back to the subject of the mosque at ground zero. Religious liberty which is due to the efforts of the Baptists, essentially and primarily (if any one knows their American History) says Ameran Muslims can build a mosque, but wisdom and cooler heads would suggest as the Pope did this nuns that itwould offend sensibilities to build their building there at Auswitz (sp?). And if I were the Muslims, I would consider feelings as Americans do like the idea of respecting one another’s feelings up to a point. I would point out, howeve, that there is one issue in this that has not and is not being addressed, namely, the ongoing and increasing loss of the rights of Christians to pray in the name of Jesus in public forums. Recently in NC the state legislature took treasonous action to give short shrift to a minister who prayed in the name of Jesus. I wonder if they would do the same to a Muslim who prayed in the name of Allah or a Jew who prayed in the name of Elohim or one of the other OT names for God. The President of the United States weighed in for religious liberty for the Muslims to build their mosque at Ground Zero, but he never sent his Attorney General to Winston-Salem, NC, when the ACLU backed by sme Jews and Muslims brought suit against a local governmental body that allowed a Christian ministry to pray in the name of Jesus, a body that had also allowed other religions to pray in the name of their deities, so I understand. Wake up, folks, you al claim to believe in the name of Jesus, but you are about to lose the right to pray in His name in public forums. Sleeping and ignoring such terrible infringement of our rights ain’t too swift.
Paula, Paula, Paula:
You are not my enemy. I think you want me to consider you my enemy. You come on this blog with all barrells blasting and posting comments that attack people and I simply call you on it.
Maybe you have a different definiton of enemy than I do.
But carry on with your crusade.
Maybe you should reread about the crusades to refocus your perspective about crusades.
Tom, read your own comment here, and try your very best to see the self-contradictions. And please, just stop the personal attacks. Just stop.
Maybe we can cut through some of the noise here. I think most agree that building the mosque is going to cause some problems, and that a more reasonable and sensitive thing to do would be to voluntarily build elsewhere.
Bottom line: Who believes that the government should use its power to deny the building of a mosque two blocks from ground zero? And if so, how close should the state allow a mosque to be built?
What I am saying now I am not writing in Stone.
I am still conflicted about this matter
But I am thinking let the Mosque be built. It was going along relatively calmly till bloggers with an agenda and Fox News picket it up and made a wedge issue of it. To let that be the deciding factor, and I am convinced it woulda been built through normal procedures had not agenda politics driven it to the place it is now; that we are at a point that the greater issue is are we gonna let right wing noisy politics displace greater concerns and distract from the much bigger issues facing the country.
Let the Mosque be built. Encourage Baptist congregations to have congregational discussion of Robert Parham’s Common Word documentary. Get church leadership to read Charles Kimball’s When Religion Become Evil so that education and enlightenment runs more toward things we have some say in; trusting God by the best of our witness to encourage progressive forces in other parts of the world to be challenged by our example; work with folks like Sayyid Syeed and Martin Accad to advance toward the good like Abraham Lincoln did in his lifetime.
And Show some Hospitality toward the Muslim Community in Murphreesboro, Tn just thirty miles outside Baptist headquarters in Nashville.
Paula:
I do not see any contradictions. If you think I am being personal it is of your own reality, not mine.
Of course, because you didn’t tell her she was on a crusade. You didn’t say “You come on this blog with all barrells blasting and posting comments that attack people and I simply call you on it.
Yep, there wasn’t anything personal in that comment at all. Where’d you learn English grammer–Enid, OK?
Joe,
You are such an equine rectum. Get off “Enid’s” back. I have grandkids going to school in Enid and they have excellent schools there. If you have a problem with anyone in Enid, fine have your problem but don’t paint all citizens of Enid with your broad brush.
“You area horse’s ***… don’t paint us all with a broad brush”
Pot, meet kettle.
Anyway, it’s a reference to a specific group of people, the members of which know what Joe was talking about. Next time you might want to ask questions first and only then throw the horse **** around. Just some friendly advice.
Typo: you are a, not you area
You “area” would make the subject rather big there Paula. Glad you cleared that up.
The above is between Joe and I. Please stay out of it. Thank you.
Well excuuuuuse me, Jake. I didn’t know this was your private blog.
Do Paula and Lydia and JoeB think Barack Obama is A Christian?
Question open to any others who want to paricipate as well.
As you can imagine, FTR, I think he is; as does Conservative blogger William Thornton as SBC Plodder and CB Scott’s good friend, John Killian who blogs at Musings from Maytown.
I haven’t talked to Bobby Welch recently. I don’t know what he thinks. I think David Rogers has expressed his confidence in Obama’s salvation, but I’m not certain about that.
“Do Paula and Lydia and JoeB think Barack Obama is A Christian”
I listened to quite a few Jeremiah Wright sermons during the early days of the primary. There was no Gospel. Lots of hate and blame.
Obviously, later on Obama tried to distance himself from Wright so there were some concerns. But he had been going to church there for something like 20 years. I thought it sounded more like Marxist Liberation Theology.
I think Obama may have the same problem that Land and others have: Trying to merge their “religious” beliefs with political strategy.
Lydia:
If you want to examine your truths, and open them to further consideration, then David Remnick has written an highly acclaimed book, The Bridge, Just for you.
I hope you will give it some consideration.
As for political strategy, consider Garry Wills Segment The Rove Era in American Christianities; supported in large part by what I guess is your SBC Cooperative Program Dollars.
And then there is the MOvie W, which according to Josh Brolan, President Clinton loaned his personal Copy to President Bush 41. Good talk in there about playing the religion card and how 41 differed from his Father in the counsel of Rove as to how to play it.
And Brian Kaylor has been doing some interesting work about the Transformative Moment in the SBC, the 1980 Roundtable gathering headed up by Criswell and Ed McAteer.
There is a sense in which I agree with Adrian Rogers son, David, on some of this; it’s just the historical record needs to be as honest and accurate as it can be.
In time I am hoping Rogers can work with Charles Marsh to reconcile some of the loose ends of the differing emphasis in recent memory.
Maybe Noll and Balmer and the children of Harry Dent can help as well.
Steven Miller’s book on Nixon, Graham, Race and the Rise of the Southern GOP may be a good frame to ground the discussion and Reconciliation History.
What Stephen? No Robert Duvall movie to teach me about salvation?
)
A Christian believes that salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ, that He is the only Savior, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him.
Barack Hussein Obama believes “I’m rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.” (Chicago Sun Times/April 4th, 2004/Cathleen Falsani)
Of course Obama isn’t a Christian. He believes there are many paths to God. Christians believe there is only one path to God.
Oh, and no one is saved by Christ without knowing that it is Christ who is doing the saving.
Joe,
In Cathleen Falsani’s book entitiled: The God Factor, a whole chapter is devoted to the religious testimony of Barack Obama in 2004. The testimony is not that of a New Testament Christian.
cb,
You know we’re just ignorant ol’ hatemongerin’ fearmongerin’ fundy’s. LOL
What time is kickoff Saturday?
Joe,
Actually we are not the ignorant here. That is obvious.
I think kickoff is at 6:00 p.m. I know the tailgate starts at 10:00 a.m. with breakfast
I wish you could be with us. I will be there with three of my sons, one daughter-in-law and one grandson and a host of Sabanites in the supreme glory of football at its perfect best. Roll Tide! 
CB, you have a decent mind I’m convinced, but what a waste, the books you read.
I don’t know. There is better reading material. With all my reservations about Rick Lance on many matters, I think he and Mike Shaw could point you in a better direction.
You want read anything I suggest and I think most of the stuff you read is if not bogus, quite inadequate.
Maybe you can read Cormac McCarthy’s The Road and we can talk about that later. I’m genuinely delighted you read Ron Rash’s Serena; and I do hope you can get your hands on his short stories, Burning Bright.
I could be wrong, but I’m sad to see you differ with David Rogers on this one; and Gary Fenton, and Rick Lance and the list goes on and on.
Selma, it’s in Alabama you know. Though in fact I didn’t make it down to walk with John Lewis and Obama and the Clintons the first Sunday in March of 07; when you think of me,I want you to picture me there on the Bridge with them; cause that is where I was.
David Remnick is waiting for you to read his first chapter in The Bridge whenever you’re ready.
Me, Albert Brewer, Paul Hemphill, Gary Farley, Mark Ingram, Julio Jones, Archie Manning, Bo Jackson; we all want you to read it.
Alabama deserves better Baptist preachers than you on this subject; and The Crimson Tide deserves Better Fans.
Maybe nothing is sacred to you, but open your heart on this matter.
Barack Obama Loves Jesus and has been Baptized. Embrace him as your Brother in Christ Jesus cause that’s what he is.
Steve,
Falsani’s book was simply the recorded testimonies of several famous or or up and coming celebs.
It was basically word-for-word the testimonies of those folks “spiritual journey” to that point in their lives. And you are right.
There is much better stuff to read. For the majority of the testimonies in the book were nothing more than fairy tales, including “Senator” Obama’s testimony of faith.
In addition Steve, I have offered you a bet on more than one occasion as to the volume and scope of what I have read as compared to what you have throughout our lives. I am confident I surpass you in both volume and depth.
But, if you feel the least bit froggy, just jump. I am sure you remember the guidelines for the bet. I await your response.
Lastly Steve, read the book yourself. We both know you are making a judgement call without credible proof.
Lydia and Joe have given excellent answers with which I agree completely.
But then, this question is being asked among a group of people where many don’t seem to know what a Christian is, so those with definitions that differ from the Bible’s, as Joe explained, will say he is a Christian.
That’s why I focus on the gospel; that’s why I say the churches are the biggest mission field in the world. If they can learn the gospel, they will in turn share it all over the world. So it’s vital that those calling themselves Christians know what that means.
But being another off-topic inquisition focusing on the people instead of the mosque, SF should be happy anyone bothers to respond. But if it gets the gospel stated again, I’m all for it.
Okay, this is gettin a little personal so I’m gonna hold off.
I admire the convictions some of you have, but this trash about yall are the only ones who know the gospel as if to put yourself up as the Judge against the rest of humanity, want be long before your children become suicide bombers, the very thing you abhor in the faith traditions you discredit.
Your fundamentalism is just a matter of degree from the extremists in their tradition and you should thank Almight God every night for the likes of Martin King, Judge Frank Johnson, Bonhoeffer, Albert Brewer, Hugo Black, Oscar Romero, Marney, Delanna Obrien and their ilk cause what’s left of civilization will quickly go to Hell in a Handbasket with a fundamentalist mentality like yours setting policy.
Call Rick Lance, Gary Fenton, even Nick Saban, Greg McElroy and Mark Ingram. Ask them what they think.
Ask UTenn Coach Dooley, ask him and his Mother Barbara. See how proud of you David Potts is; not very I would imagine.
Okay, I’m out before I become more like you are. Maybe with God’s grace we can pick it up later on another subject.
Billy Graham went one way and his son Franklin looks to be headed in the opposite direction with yall.
God Help Us.
God help us indeed, when THE BIBLE’S definition of salvation is offensive to Christians. If the gospel as THE BIBLE defines it is a kind of “fundamentalism” that can’t be tolerated, then the churches have not only died but begun to rot.
Steve,
Not one person here believes we “are the only ones who know the gospel.”
I don’t think you believe that, nor Tom Parker or Debbie or Joe, Paula, TIm G, Lydia or cb.
That statement has no foundation whatsoever. I think you know that. You just want to take the topic in another direction.
Also Steve, rarely do you say anything that just really bothers me, because I know you to a certain degree, through other people and dialogue with you here in Blogtown. I believe you are actually a decent guy who loves Jesus and has a great loyalty to family and I respect that greatly.
But I am going to take serious issue with you in your saying, “….want be long before your children become suicide bombers, the very thing you abhor in the faith traditions you discredit.”
Steve, I have seen evil up close and personal and dealt with it in a sufficient manner. I also have one boy who my wife and I raised who fought in Papa Bush’s war with honor. Another young sniper in Iraq is one who I taught to shoot his first rifle and he has been in harm’s way now for three tours in that hell hole.
I have another son here who just recently joined the Marines and may be in harm’s way within the next year.
I really don’t appreciate what you have said relating to our children becoming “suicide bombers” when it is highly possible one of mine could forfeit his life in the defense of this nation, including you.
Steve, I have never been in the “boy business.” I have always been in the “man business” in the rearing of my sons. All of my sons are men who are willing to do what they have to do to take care of their families and protect this nation.
They all love Jesus, their Momma (those with wives and children love and take care of their families also) and this country and they, to a man, have lost very few stand-up-toe-to-toe fights in their lives. Yet, they are all gentlemen, due to their Momma’s influence and they are all better and more civilized men than their daddy who taught them how not to lose the afore mentioned fights.
Men reared by my son’s Momma would never become suicide bombers. She instilled the Word of God in each one of them and still does.
On the other hand, men reared by my son’s daddy would certainly slap a man naked who slandered their Momma’s hard work and sacrifice to rear gentlemen, one and all. And their daddy is just “almost” civilized and ain’t no gentleman at all.
Therefore, I trust you refrain from making such statements in the future. And I thank you in advance for your cooperation in this matter.
The Mosque should be built elsewhere. Period.
This is not a freedom of religion issue. There are over twenty other mosques in New York and efforts have found a suitable location for the mosque somewhere else.
A true freedom of religion issue would be for Muslims to let us build a church in Saudi Arabia which won’t happen, at least not today.
This isn’t a freedom of speech issue. Enough said.
This is an issue of decency and being considerate for the hundreds of thousands of people who all lost a loved one or friend on 9/11.
I think Bill may be right.
Why else is the Mosque going to be called Cordoba?
OK. Just so I’m understanding. I understand that building a mosque near ground zero is perhaps indecent and inconsiderate. But are you saying that the Government should use the power of the State to abrogate a legal entity’s legal right to build on private property, because of who might find it inconsiderate? I think we need to very careful here. When we cede to the State the power to take away our legal rights because another group might object, you can be sure it will come back to bite us. The state will always accept more power, they will never relinquish it. Christians will no doubt find themselves on the wrong side of what the State decides is decent and considerate. No one has the right not to be offended. I think we would be unwise to go down that road.
Well, I think it’s well within our rights to cause such an uproar that construction of this Mosque is blocked, by any means necessary.
Like I said before, it’s not a freedom of religion issue because there are a bunch of mosques already there.
It’s not a freedom of expression issue.
It’s simply an issue of decency.
Too many people operate under the premise that Christianity has just as much blood on our hands because of our history.
That premise is flawed because mainstream Christianity will come out of the woodworks to condemn actions deemed contrary to Christianity like the worldwide condemnation of Westboro by any and all branches of mainstream Christianity.
No such condemnation comes out of the main channels of Islam to condemn attacks on innocent people, destruction of property, and the murder of hundreds and thousands of people all in the name of Allah.
Every major Christian leader condemned the murder of the abortion doctor a few years ago.
Most major muslim leaders either remain silent or have expressed their approval of their actions and killings.
By the way, the government already can control a private entity’s right to build on private property. The government can also claim property by right of imminent domain and then turn around sell or lease it to private companies for “development.”
But, considering that every building there except the one for the proposed mosque has been declared “historic,” one has to surmise that construction of this mosque has been a long time in coming.
You can tip toe around this or you can speak your mind.
For me, the mosque can go somewhere else.
I understand what eminent domain is. The government already abuses that power. You want to give them more? You are right, this isn’t about freedom of religion. It is the right of private property and the right of the government to deny that right based on what one group finds “decent.” Open that door and see where it leads. Westboro Baptist will be next, and few people will complain. Then perhaps Bob Jones. Gradually, what the majority decides is “decent” will go against us, and we won’t have a leg to stand on.
I hope the mosque builders will decide to build elsewhere, but I’m not willing to invoke the power of the state to force it.
“But, considering that every building there except the one for the proposed mosque has been declared “historic,”
I had not heard this. Can you provide a link?
Bill Mac,
I for one am “not” saying “the Government should use the power of the State to abrogate a legal entity’s legal right to build on private property….”
I just want to speak the truth as to what is actually taking place. The building of the Mosque is legal, but it is not a good thing.
Nonetheless, I will defend the right of those who intend to build it and not like having to do so one bit.
Bill Mac, I trust you understand my position?
CB: Yup. We’re on the same page.
CB,
The following statement by you from above may be the most powerful statement I have heard in a long time:
“Doctrine alone is indeed cold and evil; love alone is spineless and deceptive, leading people happily to hell.”
Well done!
Tim: Well done? Look in scripture. Jesus taught, but he also healed those who needed healing. Performed miracles that benefited these people, how did he treat the woman at the well for example? Zaccheus? Others? The ones he was rough with were the Pharisees. Love is spinless? Then Lord may I always be spineless. Always.
BTW: There were even times Christ spoke in parables with no explanation. No doctrine teaching. But love was always who he is and was.
Few who have accepted Christ as their Savior know the whole doctrine thing. They know Christ saved them. Period. Doctrine isn’t even a word they know the definition too, all they know is they can’t get enough of Christ, they can’t get enough of Bible, and they can’t tell people often enough. They may read scripture and get something wrong, but they know that Jesus Christ made them brand new. That is doctrine. Right and correct doctrine seems to be an idol that comes before a relationship with Christ. When you have a relationship with Christ you naturally want to know about Him as much as you can. What spurs that? Supernaturally instilled love that is given by God at the time of regeneration.
Debbie,
No one said anything about knowing the “whole doctrine thing.” Yet, every new Believer knows the doctrine they were taught by the Holy Spirit before they were saved or they would not be saved.
“BTW: There were even times Christ spoke in parables with no explanation. No doctrine teaching. But love was always who he is and was.”
You may want to take this into consideration about parables:
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’ Luke 8
Jesus never spoke anything without a doctrinal implication that is recorded in the Four Gospels.
Debbie, where do you base such a comment?
Hi DEBBIE
You wrote: “There were even times Christ spoke in parables with no explanation.”
This is true, and there is some explanation in the Gospel of St. Mark about this:
“Only Mark records the parable of the seed’s growth.
Sower and harvester are the same.
The emphasis is on the power of the seed to grow of itself without human intervention (Mark 4:27).
Mysteriously it produces blade and ear and full grain (Mark 4:28).
Thus the kingdom of God,
initiated by Jesus in proclaiming the word,
develops quietly, yet powerfully
until it is fully established by Him at the Final Judgment.”
1 John 4:8
“Whoever does not love
does not know God,
because
God is love.”
Amen Christiane. Exactly.
There was also Paul who in the book of Romans said that he loved the Jews so much and longed for their salvation that he would trade places with them if that were possible. He was willing to give them his salvation and trade places with them. He loved them that much. That is supernatural love.
You are creating a false dichotomy. CB did not invoke doctrine over love or pit one against the other. He only said, rightly, that both are important and that both are incomplete by themselves. Even the phrase “God is Love” is doctrine.
Hi BILL MAC,
“Even the phrase “God is Love” is doctrine.”
technically the phrase is a part of Holy Scripture, but there is an Catholic encyclical entitles ‘Deus Caritas Est’,
which means ‘God Is Love’, which is a teaching (doctrina) letter:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
The Holy Spirit teaches through scripture. God is Love is part of Christian doctrine. It doesn’t take a 5000 word essay from the Pope to understand those 3 words.
Debbie,
Did Jesus heal every one who needed healing?
How did Jesus treat the woman at the well, you ask? Well, He told her the truth about sexual promiscuity and she was pierced to the core of her being with conviction. That is how He treated the woman at the well.
He also had a deeper doctrinal conversation with her than He did with old Nic in the middle of the night. I find that interesting.
I also note that His love was in His “actions” with her. Talking to her even though she was a half breed, willing to drink from same jug as her and treating her as a valued person. These actions of love were quite scandalous for the time and place
Lydia,
Do you think that maybe Jesus was illustrating (showing by “action”) the “doctrine” of “biblical love” in His encounter with the woman at the well
He also gave her a pretty good introduction to Christology and the concept of the Trinity.
There does not seem to be very much I’m OK, You’re OK going on with the woman at the well. There seemed to be Godly compassion, calling to accountability and the application of doctrinal truth in the encounter between Jesus and the woman at the well.
Stephen Fox:
You said:”I admire the convictions some of you have, but this trash about yall are the only ones who know the gospel as if to put yourself up as the Judge against the rest of humanity, want be long before your children become suicide bombers, the very thing you abhor in the faith traditions you discredit.”
Stephen, they have in fact made themselves Judges and they are so blind as to not even see it. I guess that is why we call it blind.
“they have in fact made themselves Judges and they are so blind as to not even see it. I guess that is why we call it blind.”, he said, judgingly.
Paula:
So you do not judge others?
You’ve already judged me guilty of practically everything, so you tell me. There’s no point in my saying anything to you.
Paula:
You must be reading comments by someone other than me.
Forgive me if you’re not the same Tom from here or another board, my bad.
But you have to admit, whoever you are, that walking into a 600+ comment stream and asking that question wasn’t exactly a nice way to say hello.
Paula,
He is exactly the same Tom Parker from another board. I promise!
Ah… thanks CB!
There, see? Proof for all the world that I’m always willing to admit it when I could be wrong.
Paula:
Bless your little heart. So quickly dropping out of the dialogue. Please take care of Joe Blow for me then. I feel confident he will need your undying support.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/08/islam_islamophobia_christophob.html
Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved.”
Romans 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes”
Romans 15:20 “It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation”
1 Cor. 15:1-4 “Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures”
2 Corinthians 11:4 “For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.”
Gal. 1:6-9 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let that person be under God’s curse!”
2 Thessalonians 1:8 “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.”
2 Timothy 2:8 “Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel”
Debbie K:
Why are some people here so afraid of Love?
Why are some so afraid of truth? Truth is love.
What is truth without love?
Tom, I apologize. I always make the mistake of thinking I am talking to mature believers who can handle some debate. If you could, I would really appreciate some rule book of phrases or how to frame questions or sentences that would not offend you.
I try very hard not to talk down to people or frame my questions in a school marm manner to other adults. I probably fail miserably. I don’t do syrupy touchy feely well. I can try better, though. I admit that. I just feel so fake when I do it. My love for people is not some syrupy goopy talk. It is in action and loyalty.
(I scored very high on Acts of Service on the Love Language goop they put out years ago)
To give you an idea of how bad it is, my MBTI is INTP. NO F! I score, like, 0 on the F! That puts me in the scoring categories of most guys!~ (men score about 75% pop on the T and women score about 75% on the F)
but if it will make you all happy maybe I can put some feeler type words in my comments? I can try!
Why do some people lay flame bait all over the place?
Paula:
You said:”Why do some people lay flame bait all over the place?”
Are you speaking of yourself. You also do a really good job of firing up the base.
p0wnd!
Lydia:
No need to apologize at all, even though I did not notice a true apology, just sacrcasm.
I just think some of you guys have a real problem with the word Love.
Fire and Brimstone seem to be more of your style. Who is your biblical model for this approach?
“I just think some of you guys have a real problem with the word Love”
That is the point. If I told you I love you on this comment thread would that seem fake and silly? How about if I told you that I have no ill will toward you at all? Just disagreement on Jesus being the only path to salvation. And it must be the true Jesus…no one that is made up to fit a worldly premise. I just cannot compromise on that to be liked. IF I cannot say that to fellow Christians, who can I say it to?
And we are talking about words. In the OT, the word Lovingkindness is Hesed. And it is used to describe God. It does not denote a “feeling”…it is more of action/deed. Naomi felt that God withheld this from her when her sons and husband died. It surely felt that way and did not “feel” like love. But it was because He had a higher purpose and through Ruth lovingkindness was to be in abundance.
Lydia: It is a feeling. 1 Corinthians is a feeling as well as action. God gave us emotions. That wasn’t through our doing or a mistake. They are there. Telling someone you love them is not fake,Unless you don’t mean it. If you don’t mean it that is a spiritual problem according to scripture and the fruits of the Spirit which you can read in Galatians. but showing them is better.
The verse and many more like it that L’s gave says what it says and it’s not describing just God, it’s who we are. We have the Holy Spirit in us who produces this love, we are to be like Christ, who is love, treated people with kindness and love. Read his ministry in Matthew through John. 1 John is another great book that points this out. Either the Bible is the final authority or it isn’t Lydia. Which is it for you? For CB? For Tim? It either is or isn’t. And if it is, which I believe it is, then we should desire what the Bible says we should be. That is holiness. That is sanctification.
The shortest verse in the Bible, Jesus Wept. Emotion, feeling Lydia and I could cite several more. To say it is not a feeling is to rewrite scripture in my opinion.
There is a song entitled “And They’ll know we are Christians by our love.” and it’s taken from the Bible.
Debbie, I have been taught that we may speak of God’s eminance in this way:
‘God IS Love’
‘God IS Mercy’
‘God Is Justice’
the idea being that He possesses the attibute infinitely and perfectly, at 100 per-cent level, and all AT THE SAME TIME, so that, in Him, these attributes are never in conflict with one another (we can’t understand this).
Some of His attributes we know about, not all.
Some of His attributes He alone possesses: He alone is omniscient (all-knowing), He alone is immutable (unchanging), He alone is all-goodness.
and some of His attributes, He shares with His creatures: we may be able to love, to be good, and to be just.
As far as love goes, God is the SOURCE of all love, He Himself IS perfect love. It is said that He created by opening His Hand of Love and life came forth. It is also said that He loves all of His Creation.
Paula:
You said:”p0wnd!”
Can you elaborate on this coded message?
Well, since English isn’t working I thought I’d try l33t. It’s an actual internet language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet
But it loses all the fun if I have to spell out my point, which was that you’ve been dropping flame bait with cryptic little questions, so I dropped one for you and you took it. Thus, in l33t, you were “pwned” which is like “gotcha”.
::sigh::
Paula:
You said to me:”Well, since English isn’t working I thought I’d try l33t. It’s an actual internet language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet
But it loses all the fun if I have to spell out my point, which was that you’ve been dropping flame bait with cryptic little questions, so I dropped one for you and you took it. Thus, in l33t, you were “pwned” which is like “gotcha”.
::sigh::”
Thank you, Paula. I’ve learned something new tonight and I will not ask any cryptic question this time.
Ethicsdaily.com advances the discussion on world of Beck this morning with this word from Chicago
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16609
“Lydia: It is a feeling. 1 Corinthians is a feeling as well as action. God gave us emotions. ”
Debbie, When someone needs help or support, I think they would prefer your loving “actions” more than your “feelings” or emotion.
Good point, Lydia. I would only add this:
“Likewise, since God loved the world, he also gave his only son so that everyone who would trust in him would not be destroyed but have eternal life. For God did not dispatch his son into the world to pass judgment on it, but to save it through him. The one putting trust in him is not condemned, but the one not trusting is condemned already for rejecting the name of the only God-Man.” — John 3:16-18
God loved… He gave. First the emotion, then the action. Scripture is very clear.
And as an added bonus, this passage also tells us of the exclusiveness of the gospel: we must put our trust or faith in Jesus the God-Man (“son of” means one of that kind or group). Since no other Jesus is the God-Man, no other Jesus can save. If the “Jesus” of another religion is not the God-Man who died for us and rose again, they are not accidentally worshiping Him but an impostor.
This has always been the teaching of scripture, yet when any of us tries to quote it we are accused of rewriting it.
“Do you think that maybe Jesus was illustrating (showing by “action”) the “doctrine” of “biblical love” in His encounter with the woman at the well”
Absolutely. Can you imagine if He said nothing about her many “husbands” because it might embarass her? Look at how Jesus approaches this subject out of the blue:
16He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
And The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
I LOVE this part:
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
It seems as if she is thinking…Here is a Jewish Prophet who will actually talk to me so I am going to ask the question I have been wondering about all my life! She just dives right in.
)
Hi BILL MAC
“The Holy Spirit teaches through scripture. God is Love is part of Christian doctrine. It doesn’t take a 5000 word essay from the Pope to understand those 3 words.”
There are some insights in the essay for people of MY faith, such as this one:
“By contemplating the pierced side of Christ (cf. 19:37), we can understand the starting-point of this Encyclical Letter: “God is love” (1 Jn 4:8). It is there that this truth can be contemplated. It is from there that our definition of love must begin. In this contemplation the Christian discovers the path along which his life and love must move.”
This encyclical letter is addressed to Catholics,
but may be read and understood (if not agreed with)
by all people of good will, if they choose to read it.
The pope is ‘a pastor’, his ‘flock’ includes all the members of all the liturgical rites in union with Rome, and his encyclical letters can be considered expanded sermons for the whole Church in union together.
“God is love” when taught by the Holy Spirit, bears fruit, Bill.
When I hear this Scripture, I often think of I Cor. 13 which tells us more about God Himself.
If the scripture ‘God is love’ needs anything at all, it needs the understanding that only the Holy Spirit can inspire.
Sad to say, ‘love’ is handled in many ways by many different ‘denominations’. Take a look at Westboro Baptist Church’s definition of ‘love’, for example. Compare that to the extremist-fundamentalists definition of love.
The difference? Only a matter of degree, sadly. And, in time, there will be no difference. Evil reinforces evil.
People of ‘good will’ can recieve the scriptures and be helped by the Spirit to understand them. If the ‘good will’ is not there in them, you get some wierd versions of what scripture means, Bill.
Westboro is an example of that.
And people wonder why I share the gospel with L’s and chastise me for doing so.
L’s may the darkness be lifted from you soul.
Just for reference, this quote by Tony Campolo is typical of such twisted theology:
———–
When it comes to what is ultimately important, the Muslim community’s sense of commitment to the poor is exactly in tune with where Jesus is in the 25th chapter of Matthew. That is the description of judgment day. And if that is the description of judgment day what can I say to an Islamic brother who has fed the hungry, and clothed the naked? You say, “But he hasn’t a personal relationship with Christ.” I would argue with that. And I would say from a Christian perspective, in as much as you did it to the least of these you did it unto Christ. You did have a personal relationship with Christ, you just didn’t know it. And Jesus himself says: “On that day there will be many people who will say, when did we have this wonderful relationship with you, we don’t even know who you are. . . ” “Well, you didn’t know it was me, but when you did it to the least of these it was doing it to me.”
Interview by Shane Clairborne: http://www.crosscurrents.org/CompoloSpring2005.htm
———–
This is exactly like going to visit me at my house but claiming you really went to England to visit the queen. It’s complete nonsense. And it’s why few seem to understand the gospel even when we quote reams of scripture and use every line of reasoning we can muster. To quote a movie line, “Reason’s got nothing to do with it!”
And they continue to disregard THE BIBLE in all this. They get their standards from their own opinions and their own made-up definitions of every word. Even then, those definitions and opinions are about as consistent as the spine in a jellyfish; they waver and twist with the wind, so no matter what they say, they deny saying it.
And where do Jerry Vines and WA Criswell and Charles Stanley get their opinions other than from the Birch Society,THe Hunt Brothers of Dallas and Tupperware or whatever it was Stanley made his small fortune in; Oh AMWAY with Rich DeVoss
And for Pressler I think it was the Texas Regulars and Jesse Helms, the Pioneer Club.
I’ve heard Campolo preach in the flesh on at least three occasions and he did a grand job, once circa 98 in the church of an SBC Fundy IMB Trustee.
This is encouraging and ought to put to rest the idea that ALL muslims are anti-American terrorists.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/02/islamic-group-asks-army-deny-muslim-soldiers-request-conscientious-objector/
I say it ought to, but I know it won’t.
What is a terrible witness to the Muslims of the world is that most of the ones beating the drum for islamophobia are calling themselves ‘Christians’. It gets harder and harder for me to think of these ‘Christians’ as ‘misguided’.
It’s time, in my opinion, to give the responsibility to these ‘Christians’ for all the harm that will flow to Islamic American people as a result of the open hatred, lies, and stereotyping being promulgated. The intensity of islamophobic-fed hatred is increasing and we are now beginning to see the results in the stabbing of the Muslim taxi driver in New York City. I don’t think we have seen the last of it.
Like Ft Hood?
You old hate-monger…that poor innocent man was well within his rights to murder all those people. It’s America’s fault that he did what he did. He’s just a victim of our hate.
(/sarcasm)
Fort Hood Lydia. The guy was an extremist. Yes, you will find those. Tell me, would you agree with the “Christian” who murdered the abortion doctor in Wichita or the ones who blew up abortion clinics? If the answer is yes, I would be concerned, but if the answer is no, we are stereotyped in the same way.
Yes, like the guy at Fort Hood. And yes, he was/is and extremist. And yes, “you will find those.” Actually, according to the Intelligence Network of the United States Government, “you will find those” Islamic Extremists numbering about 300,000,000 strong around the world.
Debbie, do you think there are 300,000,000 truly born again Christians around the world who are of such a demented and twisted nature they would commit murder as did the man who killed the abortion doctor in Wichita?
“If the answer is yes, I would be concerned.” “But if the answer is no”, you are just building a dangerous straw-man in saying we are “stereotyped in the same way.”
There is a pretty great degree of difference in a nutcase who killed an abortion doctor and a few like him around the country and 300,000,000 Islamic Extremists who are willing to fly planes into buildings and French Fry men, women and children in jet fuel or blow themselves up to kill Jews and Christians in the name of the false god of Islam, don’t you think there Debbie?
“Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than thirty-five predominantly Muslim countries between 2001 and 2007. It found that – contrary to the prevailing perception in the west that the actions of al-Qaida enjoy wide support in the Muslim world – more than 90% of respondents condemned the killing of non-combatants on religious and humanitarian grounds [179][citation needed]“
“In Iraq, people of all persuasions unanimously reject the terror tactics against Iraqi civilians of “al-Qaida in Mesopotamia”. An ABC News/BBC/NHK poll revealed that all of those surveyed – Sunni and Shi’a alike – found al-Qaida attacks on Iraqi civilians “unacceptable”; 98% rejected the militants’ attempts to gain control over areas in which they operated; and 97% opposed their attempts to recruit foreign fighters and bring them to Iraq [179]“
Is this the total number of Muslims CB or Muslim extremists? Could you cite your proofs?
Key word there, Cough-man: IRAQUI Civilians. They are not bothered in the sightest when it’s American civilians. Of course, neither are you, but that’s another matter entirely.
Debbie,
I stated in my comment that they were extremists. But my point was that the numbers of extremists are of such a great number that it is not to stereotype to speak of a world wide danger due to Islamic Extremists. Your comparison to the person who killed the abortion doctor was unbalanced. There are no where near 300’000,000 “so called” Christian Extremists on the planet. The actions of the few twisted so called Christians in the world do not compare to the real numbers of Islamic Extremists and what they have done around the world to innocent people.
That is my only point Debbie.
To answer your questions about “proofs”, I cited at least one already in this comment thread. Earlier, I had stated that in all 55 predominantly Islamic nations, each and every one persecutes Christians and people of other religions other than Islam with full sanction of the governments of those countries.
Islamaphobe–n: Any person who says that islam is not a true religion and that their god is not the God that created the universe or who suggests that Christ will not save any person who is a muslim without that muslim realizing it is Christ doing the saving.
That sound about right for your definition of an islamaphobe? Yeah, I thought it did.
How about this correct definition Joe. I checked more than one source, several, and found none of your definition and all this definition:
Islamophobia is prejudice against Islam or Muslims.[1]
Actually, that’s L’s definition, not mine.
Joe Blackmon September 8, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Actually, that’s L’s definition, not mine.
Hmmmmm . . . . what is MY definition?
Of what? islamophobia?, homophobia?, anti-Semitism ?
And all the other ‘campaigns’ being waged by the ‘Westboro’ types in Christianity?
Where do we start?
The FEAR, I suppose, of someone who is ‘not like us’.
So we make it easy, don’t we: we define ‘who they are’ in a way that lumps them ‘all’ together in a package we design and offer to others as an object of our contempt.
This is called ‘stereotyping’.
And I would venture to say that this process is something that all Christian people must morally and ethically oppose.
‘Intolerance’ is another term we can apply here:
you can lay at the altar of the god ‘intolerance’ as many sacrifices as you wish,
but don’t call yourself a ‘Christian’ person, if you do that:
you cannot serve two masters and the One Christians follow did not preach intolerance, fear, and contempt for others.
So, what ‘phobia’ or ‘ism’ is it you want me to define?
What’s the difference?
To me, the motives of the preachers of contempt are the same and you can plug in any object you want for them to target: the Jews, the homosexuals, the Mormons, the Muslims, the ________ (fill in the blank, yourself).
There is enough hatred and contempt out there looking for a target, that none of us are safe, if people don’t stand up for the victims of intolerance wherever we find it.
For all Christians, this is a moral obligation, in honor of Our Lord.
Amen Christiane.
DEBBIE, I am an advocate for the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. and I am tuned into the signs of intolerance now being promoted and I know from history, what it can lead to, ultimately.
Some Jewish people sincerely oppose the building of the Mosque.
And some support it.
But is it the REASONS that some rabbis have supported the right of the Mosque to be built, that are so revealing:
“Rabbi David Saperstein may have best explained why so many Jewish leaders (and their organizations) have shown support for Park 51:
‘We Jews, as the victims of religious extermination and persecution, know all too well the pain that comes from being told that our community and our houses of worship will be treated differently than others.’
Jews know intimately what it is like to be oppressed and to have the freedom to gather as a community undermined. We understand what it is like to be a minority on the outs. It is only in the past couple of decades that Jews have become more fully accepted into American society, and memories of how it felt at other times continue to cast a pall over our community.
I too am working to support Park 51 in honor of my heritage. My grandmother — my mother’s mother — grew up in New York. She remembers vividly the night that an angry mob ran down her street yelling “Death to the Jews.”
Her family stayed inside with doors locked and windows bolted. Thankfully, they made it through the night unscathed. Even so, she tells the story three quarters of a century later with a gripping sense of immediacy. It was probably the most terrifying night of her life.”
We have reason in this country to speak up about intolerance and stereotyping. This is OUR country.
Intolerance, stereotyping, and terrorism are destructive to our way of life in this country.
We have the right to ‘be silent’ in the face of this growing menace, but we have a moral obligation to stand up to it and confront it for the cowardly bully that it is,
and for the monster that history tells us it can become.
Richard Land and Jon Meacham both have roots in the Greater Chattanooga, Tn area.
Meacham has the bottom line essay on the NYC Mosque this week in Newsweek Editor’s Oped.
JonathanAlter has a word for the pervasive Bobby Welch ideology these days in the Southern Baptist Convention.
In a decent library or newstand near you.
The Word of God for the People of God.
I rarely commend Frank Page, and even less often Richard Land but I do so here in regard their comments on the Murphreesboro Mosque:
http://www.13wmaz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=88435&catid=28
I need something to stoke my heart so I ordered “The Backlash” which is what it is and had it shipped so I’ll have it in a couple of days. Sucker for a pitch. Gentlemen & Ladies, While eating lunch in my favorite sandwich restaurant which is blacked owned and some came to my son’s ordination, the tv barked about a baptist church that is calling for President Obama’s death. You know what that can lead to. Beck had a bullet proof vest on when he did his minstrel act. The swasticas are dancing around the flag pole. We and you are smarter than that. Even Blackmon. Don’t allow these hucksters who ever they represent start trouble between us . No sermon. That’s your job. But maybe it’s time to be more polite to everybody Dem. or Rep. and all the other nationalities who aren’t our enemy. Put the truth on the line and stand on it. Your might is not an M-16 or an AR-15 but the Bible and you’ve been schooled to know what the truth is. Right is Might and we are part of the correct side. Let’s embareass these bums who want to start a war inside our churchs and schools. I haven’t forgot the other issue it’s just this is pressing and involves us all – ALL MEANS ALL. Even Blackmon. You seminary students – try going to any other church or synagogue where you will find God and come away with a powerful renewed fresh outlook – and it won’t cost you anything. You’ll find friends to. fine = the end in music – I think.
The Imam Rauf has a piece in the NYtimes this morning and will be on Larry King Live tonight.
http://www.baptistlife.com/forums faith and practice has an active discussion on new aspects of this story and its connectiions to Fox News.
Bruce Gourley who has worked with the Center for Baptist Studies at Mercer is following it all closely.
My latest question is what wisdom does Tony Blair have for all this given his Charlie Rose conversation last night was most fascinating.
Still Jon Meacham of Newsweek is making most sense to me when it comes to the bottom line on this matter to date.
Add to that the piece at religion dispatches this morning that highlights the difference between Glenn Beck and BJC’s Brent Walker on Salvation.
And Wandering evangelicals post may spark an effort here at the Voices. Roger Olson has a serious lament.
CB:
You said:”Actually, according to the Intelligence Network of the United States Government, “you will find those” Islamic Extremists numbering about 300,000,000 strong around the world.”
Would you so kindly provide us with some other sources to validate the above number?
That is a mighty big number.
Tom Parker,
See my comment to debbie about sources.
You are right. it is a big number. But think about it for a moment Tom. I am sure you are aware of events all over the globe wherein terrible things are being done by Islamic Extremists. Consider the African continent alone and the horror is overwhelming.
Surely you see my point Tom? There simply is no comparison between that which has occurred even in our lifetime between that which was at the hands of Islamic Extremists and that which has been done by so called Christians. The murder of the abortion doctor was a terrible thing, I agree. But it is not comparable to the continuous acts of terror by Islamic Extremists around the world.
cb:
You said:”Yes, like the guy at Fort Hood. And yes, he was/is and extremist. And yes, “you will find those.” Actually, according to the Intelligence Network of the United States Government, “you will find those” Islamic Extremists numbering about 300,000,000 strong around the world.”
Do you believe this number of 300,000,000 strong?
Yes Tom,
I believe the number to be pretty accurate considering ongoing events of terrorism on the planet committed by Islamic Extremists.
Is this your number that came to your head CB or is this accurate? Source please. I can’t find those kind of numbers anywhere in my search. Embellishment is something we’ve already dealt with in SBC life remember?
Will Bunch on Paranoid Politics and Backlash in the Age of Obama has the goods on Richard Land and Glenn Beck.
Call Goldline and watch this UTube video.
If the Cooperative Program cuts Richard Land and his ERLC loose, I guess Beckand Goldline will pick him up.
Watch this video to the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQxa4xYHmCI
CB:
You said:”I believe the number to be pretty accurate considering ongoing events of terrorism on the planet committed by Islamic Extremists.”
Was this number calculated under the Bush Administration officials that declared Sadam had WMD?
QUOTE Was this number calculated under the Bush Administration officials that declared Sadam had WMD? END QUOTE
Saddam WAS a WMD! While you are ranting against Bush’s concern over WMDs, have you ever bothered to ask how many WMDs from Iraq made it into Syria and other places. Or, have you ever bothered to wonder where all the WMDs (especially suitcase nukes) went after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I for one am glad we had a President willing to act on the best evidence he had available. So, rant all you want. I felt safer under Bush.
Just my opinion.
SSBN:
You said:”QUOTE Was this number calculated under the Bush Administration officials that declared Sadam had WMD? END QUOTE
Saddam WAS a WMD! While you are ranting against Bush’s concern over WMDs, have you ever bothered to ask how many WMDs from Iraq made it into Syria and other places. Or, have you ever bothered to wonder where all the WMDs (especially suitcase nukes) went after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
I for one am glad we had a President willing to act on the best evidence he had available. So, rant all you want. I felt safer under Bush.
Just my opinion.”
Really was not a rant, just a sincere question.
What flavor of Kool-Aid is your favorite Mr. SSBN?
Mr. Parker, you’re little insults do not make you bigger. Since I had loved ones die in Jonestown, I don’t see as much humor in your “Kool-Aid” joke as you do.
I’m sure other surviving family members and friends of that tragedy can recognize the shallowness of your professed Christianity also.
I’m sure you have some pretty off-color racist jokes, or perhaps maybe some disabled people jokes. I think you just make yourself look like a joke.
BTW:
Mr. SSBN are you really Mr. Blackmon?
No, Mr. Parker, I am not Mr. Blackmon. He may consider that an insult — oh, but that’s probably how you intended it.
Tom Parker,
There has been an Islamic threat longer than there has been a United States.
Tom think about what has happened in these countries alone in the last thirty years and make up your own mind as to the reality of the threat from Islamic Extremists: Sudan, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Somalia, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Algeria, Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, France, England, The United States, Spain, Indonesia,…. the list can go on.
Another source that is not connected to any Bush presidency would be the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. Check it out. I think you will find the number 300,000,000 pretty accurate.
Longer than there has been a United States, that’s your argument? As for the number I thought what Tom said, if you can point me to your exact source as I can’t seem to find even near those numbers, unless you are counting every single Muslim and that would be a mistake on your part. But I could be wrong, if I could see your source.
Debbie,
Check out the history of Tripoli. Therein you will find why I said there has been a “threat” even before there was a United States.
As to population: Conservative estimates are that 1.5 billion Muslims are in the world today. Three hundred million would be roughly 15 to 20 percent that would be considered radical, militant or extremist so to speak.
I have just given Tom Parker an additional source to those I listed in the comment thread earlier. Of course, the information is as available to you as it is to me.
Debbie, there is no need to make this personal. I just shared with you and Tom information that I believe to be pretty accurate.
There was no reason for you to say, “so I’m concluding that CB wrongly includes every single person who is a Muslim.”
I made no such claim. If you are looking for a fight tonight Debbie, you need to go elsewhere. I just shared information that is seemingly reliable if one considers the incidents of terrorism around the globe in the last thirty years and who was/is responsible for it.
And I shared that I believe it and you to be full of beans. You can say it’s personal. I say it’s bologna
OK Debbie, that’s fine.
You say you are good at research. Do your own. If you find it other than what I have stated I believe based on what I have read, seen and experienced, let me know.
At that point we can both be thankful to the Lord. Otherwise, I will continue to pray for and witness to Muslims for I believe the only hope we have of curbing the threat of Islamic terrorism on this planet is the gospel.
CB:
I do not dismiss the threat, but 300,000,000 looks like a made up number to me by whoever arrived at this number.
Why not just say it is 1 Billion?
Tom Parker,
The reason I did not say “it is 1 billion” is because the most reliable estimate is three hundred million as I quoted earlier.
As I shared with Debbie, that is roughly 15 to 20 percent of the Islamic population on earth.
There is a little over 1 billion total Muslims and that is all over the world, so I’m concluding that CB wrongly includes every single person who is a Muslim. *Sigh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
Debbie K:
This number of 300,000,000 seems as believable as the SBC being overun by “liberals” making the CR necessary.
CB:
Please reveal your sources.
Tom Parker,
I gave you one source in a recent comment. I also gave sources in this comment thread a few days ago.
Read the comment.
CB: And I suggest you read this from the IMB. “How To Pray For Muslims: Get To Know Them.”
How can you best pray for Muslims?
Get to know them.
Travel in their countries and learn all you can about them. Befriend them right here at home. Talk to them in checkout lines. In short, love them. Listen to the Holy Spirit as He prompts you to pray for them in an extremely personal and effective way.
I have done that Debbie. I was probably there (“there” meaning in other countries) quite frankly, before the person at the IMB who wrote “How to pray for Muslims.”
How come I don’t buy that CB. MMMM why don’t I buy that.
Considering your prejudice remarks CB I just can’t and don’t buy it.
Debbie,
There is a difference in making a prejudice comment and simply making statements of fact or, in some cases personal opinion.
Debbie, I think maybe, if you read back through the comments of the last several, it will not be me who has made comments with a “prejudice” slant. Maybe you will have to agree, you have made such comments because you are of a prejudice nature toward me.
Nonetheless, I will continue to do what I do and you continue to do what you do and we will let God be the judge of our efforts.
Hi C.B.
Soon an extremist-fundamentalist will exercise his right to exhibit ‘his opinion’ in Florida,
which will then, as he has been advised and agrees with,
will give ammunition to extremist-fundamentalists in Afghanistan to use to kill our troops.
And the actions of these extremist-fundamentalists have absolutely nothing to do with religion.
And when the troops die, that will fire up the extremist-fundamentalist in Florida to more ‘expressions of his beliefs’ in ways that will provide more ammunition for the killing of our troops by other extremist-fundamentalists. And so it goes, around, and around, and around, in some never-ending Satanic ritual.
What do you get?
A lot of extremist-fundamentalists glorying in doing their own thing,
while a lot of our fine young soldiers must pay for it with their blood.
Religion?
Nah . . . not a chance.
L’s,
I know little to nothing about Terry Jones. Therefore, I can only give an opinion based on his desire to burn copies of the Koran on 9/11.
I think I am safe to say it is more than a simple opinion to consider Terry Jones very ignorant of Muslims and the Islamic way of life. He seemingly has no idea as to what his actions can bring about on a national and international scope. As you said L’s, the lives of American Armed Services personnel could well and easily come into a far greater degree of harm’s way due to these thoughtless actions on the part of Terry Jones.
It is my opinion that Terry Jones is a stupid and self-centered man. In addition, it seems that he lost his last ministry in Germany due to stealing from the church.
Therefore, if that is true (please notice the “if”) he is not only stupid, but he is of putrid character.
http://www.imb.org/main/news/details.asp?LanguageID=1709&StoryID=8918
Forgot to post the link.
It would seem that CB’s number is purely math.
1,500,000,000 divided by 5 equals 300,000,000 or 20% of the initial number. Since CB is saying that he believes 15-20% of the Muslim world to be extremist, then obviously the number would climb or decline were someone to present a true headcount or at least a more recent headcount.
I don’t get where the problem is here folks.
Math is math.
Bill,
I am not trying to be hard here. I am simply stating what the Intelligence Network of our government states. I have given sources in this thread prior to today.
I gave one to Tom a few comments ago:
“Another source that is not connected to any Bush presidency would be the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. Check it out. I think you will find the number 300,000,000 pretty accurate.”
I do not understand why Tom and Debbie continue to ask for sources. I gave them. All they have to do is read them.
I’m with you on this one.
I’m trying to figure out where they got that you were lumping a billion muslim into the same pot.
My head hurts…
bill: Facts are facts. There are no facts that support that conclusion. The numbers show that 90- 95% is not terrorist nor do they condone terrorism or Bin Laden. That would leave10- 5% that are. There are an approximate total of 1.8 billion Muslims in the World. That may be what’s wrong with CB’s math.
Debbie,
I’m not entering the math dispute. But here’s a figure I know to be true: 100% of the Korans in the world teach the conquest of infidels by force and/or deceit.
Fact two: you cannot be a Muslim without being completely submitted to the Koran’s teachings. That, in reality, makes the term Moderate Muslim an oxymoron of sorts.
It is a grave mistake in my opinion to not understand the “conquest” nature of the Muslim religion. All Muslims know it full well. For some, it creates a huge inner-conflict that largely goes unresolved.
I understand the conquest part for the 5% that are radical. But, you have to deal with the fact that peaceful Muslims are living in the United States and are entitled to the same liberties we are. And legally, until they do a crime, you can persecute them for a crime they have not committed. All Muslims do not “know it full well.” That’s ridiculous.
Debbie,
There is so much wrong with your reply. For one, I never suggested in any way peaceful Muslims should not have the same liberties we all have.
Understanding world events in regard to Islam requires a degree of sophistication most Americans just do not have. For example: the same people who cry for Muslim civil rights to build a mosque at ground zero, decry the civil rights for people to peacefully though vocally object. That kind of sophisticated nuance is lost on many people — apparently you are one of them.
You also say it’s ridiculous to state that all Muslims do not know the Koran. I was using the term Muslim to refer to those who practice the Muslim religion, not those who might just happen to be of Arab descent.
I do not know of one Muslim among the many friends and acquaintances I know well who do not understand their religion — including the sacred name, Allah the Conquerer.
I doubt that you have ever had a serious discussion with any Muslim about their religion (I know you have had a discussion with a Muslim about your religion and all of its faults).
You cannot be a devout Muslim and not pray about and seek the complete conquest of all infidels anymore than you can be a Christian and not practice “loving your neighbor.” It is a part and parcel of the religion. Just read the Koran. You will find occasional references to kindness, but these are well overshadowed by references to war and conquest. You might want try reading a little history, too.
My point is not that we should take away any rights for any Americans, but that we should not try to make a religion something it is not for the sake of political correctness.
Please don’t read into this more than a suggestion that we argue from a point of knowledge and truth not opinion and ignorance. We might still draw different conclusions about a specific matter (the Mosque), but at least they will have a basis in reality.
Debbie,
First: It is not “cb’s math.” The math belongs to the Intelligence Network of this government. I just quoted the math. I did not create it.
Second: I did give sources. You can find others I am sure.
Third: Debbie, if only five percent of Muslims are violent and militant, how do you account for all the terrorism accredited to Islamic Extremists or that they have claimed credit for on a world scope in the last thirty years?
Fourth: Not all Islamic Extremists follow “Bin Laden.” Nor are all Islamic Extremists part of Al Qa’ida.
And, again, as I said earlier; I hope you are right. I hope there are many less than three hundred million. But it would seem, due to the terroristic activities on a worldwide scope, that the numbers three hundred million has a valid foundation.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Again, cite your source CB.
Debbie,
The estimate is that 1.4 million Muslims live in the United States. If you would read through my comments, I did not say anything about refusing liberty to any citizen of this country regardless of race, color, creed or religious affiliation.
My comments were about Islamic Extremists on a worldwide scope.
Debbie,
I did cite the sources. Read the comments.
ugh.
facepalm.
PS — I have a confession to make, but I’ll wait a little while.
BTW Debbie,
If your number of 1.8 billion is right about the worldwide population of Muslims and 5 to 10 percent, as you say are extremists, then somewhere around three hundred million would be right, don’t you think?
The population numbers I had read were 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. Of that number, it is estimated that 300,000,000 are of an extremist nature.
‘WHERE THE PEOPLE BURN BOOKS,
IN THE END THEY BURN PEOPLE
A saying inscribed on a plaque in Berlin where the Nazis burned books.
The German author is Heinrich Heine
Did Florida’s ‘Pastor’ Jones get his book-burning training in America? Not likely. Maybe he got the inspiration from a former leader of Germany who ordered the practice.
Is it possible? German media reported on Wednesday that “Pastor’ Jones founded a Christian congregation in the western city of Cologne, Germany in the 1980s. The group, known as the Christliche Gemeinde Koeln (CGK), confirmed this but said it had severed ties with Jones.
‘Pastor’ Jones has a ‘past’ we need to find more about since he is about to become ‘indirectly’ responsible for the slaughtering of our troops on the ground. We need to understand who ALL of our enemies are in this country, and how they operate to harm us as a nation.
It WOULD be patriotic if the media of our country would not broadcast the book-burning. But that is almost too much to hope for.
L’s,
It would be my desire for the various mediums not to cover the book-burning either. I think it would be a “patriotic” move also.
This is an important but mostly overlooked point. So some people are prejudiced or antagonistic or just plain stupid. So what? If these people burn Korans then why is the whole world ENCOURAGING them by giving them publicity and making a huge deal out of it? So the guy wants fame; should we hand it to him on a silver platter, or would it be better to ignore him?
Not to mention the fact that people who follow the Koran burn people, buildings, flags, etc. every day of the week. A little perspective would go a long way.
Paula,
You are right about the burning of people. I just don’t think Terry Jones understands what he is about to do.
Stonings in ME countries and honor killings, even in Western countries, of their women never get this much publicity from our media. Why?
The death threats of Aryaan Hirisi makes very little news in the US liberal media. Why?
The pastor is not a fundy wacko. He is a media %$#%$#$. It is that simple. I heard him speak today and he does not know the scripture well enough to articulate anything. The guy is a joke. I agree with Paula…the media is milking this and givng the guy exactly what he wants: His 15 minutes.
Can you prove to me that there are “honor killings” in the Western Countries? If so why is the law not putting them in jail Lydia? Killing is illegal in this country. You guys site stories with no proofs, it’s hard for me to swallow them if I have no link or source given. I could believe these stories if I could see them or hear of them on a news program. That is news and it would be reported somewhere.
Debbie,
Do you not believe honor killings have occurred in this country?
Debbie,
It was reported that no less than six honor killing took place at the hands of followers of Islam in this country alone in 2009.
I know of 3 documented honor killings here in the USA since 2006. They were arrested, went through our court system, were found guilty and sentenced. That is what happens in our country.
So Debbie,
You do agree there are honor killings that occur in this country?
BTW, I am pretty sure that the reports of at least six occurred in the US in 2009 and probably more.
Sadly, as with many murders in this country, some have probably never been resolved as to what actually happened or by whom was the murder committed.
CB: Yes. I know of 3. Just like I know that we trained the terrorists that did 9/11. Some trained in Oklahoma City. My point is this. Embellishment for the sake of proving a point gets under my skin. Accuracy is important when dealing with facts. These murders, which is what they are, were dealt with as all murders are. We have murders here. Abuse here. And I won’t go into the abuse that is going on in our churches that are not dealt with. That does not mean that all Muslims are murders, treat their wives in this way. To classify all as this way is wrong. It’s prejudices that I have a hard time tolerating. I won’t and have never tolerated prejudiceness of any kind.
They live here in America, whether you like it or not. I am saying that you embellish the numbers to make it seem what it is not. They are entitled to the same liberties, freedoms as you are. They pay their taxes and most are law abiding citizens. Most have a college degree and make a good living, bordering on wealth and some are wealthy. Deal with it. They are here paying their taxes and not making trouble. We have several that I deal with on a daily basis along with my friendship with Mohammad. This is my point.
Debbie,
I have “embellished” nothing here. If I have ever made an embellishing statement in any comment I have made to you, prove it. I will promptly deal with it quickly. You of all people should not accuse me of that. And you know why.
You asked Lydia if she could prove there are honor killings in Western countries.
I asked you if you believed that no honor killings occurred in this country.
I then said it was reported that no less than six honor killings had occurred in the US in 2009.
At that point you came back and stated you had found three had occurred since 2006. Yet, you made no apology to Lydia for the implication that she was less than truthful.
Then you say I embellished numbers. That is simply not true. What is true is that you have not read the same sources as did I. That is what is true.
It is also true that you credit me and others with things we did not say or imply. Therein lies the “embellishment” if that is what you desire to call it.
As far as prejudice here, the only prejudice that is evident is that of which you manifest against any and all who have a differing opinion or perspective than you.
Debbie, I have done all I can to avoid a conflict with you here. All I wanted to do was share information that I had read and heard. I also stated a couple of opinions.
You brought in your dogged attack mode to this thread and any one of any degree of common sense who takes the time to read what you have said would, in all likelihood, will agree. Unless, of course, it is their purpose to support your statements or positions without regard to reality.
Debbie,
I found this from USA TODAY relating to the six honor killings I shared with you last evening. If you read it I think you will find I have embellished nothing.
By Oren Dorell, USA TODAY
Muslim immigrant men have been accused of six “honor killings” in the United States in the past two years, prompting concerns that the Muslim community and police need to do more to stop such crimes.
“There is broad support and acceptance of this idea in Islam, and we’re going to see it more and more in the United States,” says Robert Spencer, who has trained FBI and military authorities on Islam and founded Jihad Watch, which monitors radical Islam.
Honor killings are generally defined as murders of women by relatives who claim the victim brought shame to the family. Thousands of such killings have occurred in Muslim countries such as Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Palestinian territories, according to the World Health Organization.
Some clerics and even lawmakers in these countries have said families have the right to commit honor killings as a way of maintaining values, according to an analysis by Yotam Feldner in the journal Middle East Quarterly.
Debbie,
Here is another piece from the same news source:
“In the USA, police allege the latest “honor killing” was that of Noor Almaleki, 20, who died Nov. 2 after she and her boyfriend’s mother were run over in a Peoria, Ariz., parking lot. Prosecutors charged Almaleki’s father, Faleh Almaleki, with murder, saying the Iraqi immigrant was upset that his daughter rejected a husband she married in Iraq and moved in with an American.
“By his own admission, this was an intentional act, and the reason was that his daughter had brought shame on him and his family,” says Maricopa County prosecutor Stephanie Low, according to The Arizona Republic.
Many Muslim leaders in the USA say that Islam does not promote honor killings and that the practice stems from sexism and tribal behavior that predates the religion.
“You’re always going to get problems with chauvinism and suppressing vulnerable populations and gender discrimination,” says Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
Not all agree. Zuhdi Jasser says some Muslim communities have failed to spell out how Islam deals with issues that can lead to violence.
“How should young adult women be treated who want to assimilate more than their parents want them to assimilate?” asks Jasser, founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, which advocates a separation of mosque and state. “How does an imam treat a woman who comes in and says she wants a divorce … or how to deal with your daughter that got pregnant, and she’s in high school?”
Debbie,
Here is one more piece from Phyllis Chesler, who wrote about honor killings in her book: Woman’s Inhumanity to Woman
Chesler states, “Police need to focus on the crimes’ co-conspirators if they wish to reverse the trend. Before 2008, there were six honor killings in the USA in the previous 18 years, according to her research.
“It’s usually the father, brother or first male cousin who is charged with the actual shooting or stabbing, (but not) the mother who lures the girl home,” Chesler says. “The religion has failed to address this as a problem and failed to seriously work to abolish it as un-Islamic….Until we have women’s liberation ….we’re going to see these things increase.”
Debbie, it seems that honor killings by radical Muslims is on an increase in the West. Sadly it seems to be on the increase in the UNited States also.
Debbie,
Here is one more source for what I shared with you yesterday and last evening.
It is another book. It was written by Paul Marshall. It is entitled:Radical Islam’s Rules: The Worldwide Spread of Extreme Shari’a Law.
Debbie, it is a pretty straightforward book and I was somewhat hesitant to list it here. Of course, there are many other sources available that are not as straightforward as this one. But the more I have thought about your efforts to discredit me and say I made this information up with comment like:
“Is this your number that came to your head CB or is this accurate? Source please. I can’t find those kind of numbers anywhere in my search. Embellishment is something we’ve already dealt with in SBC life remember?”,
I decided to give this source also. Debbie, I have embellished nothing here. I quoted from sources I have read and also from some folks that monitor terrorist activity for a living. I have known some of those guys a long time.
Debbie, I have not lied about anything here. I simply gave the information and offered my opinion. You have taken a liberty against me that is uncalled for and wrong in your accusations that I made this stuff up.
At some point you may find it in your heart to apologize for your wrongful accusations or maybe you won’t.
Nonetheless, other people who read this comment thread should see the reality that I have embellished nothing here and that you have made a false accusation against me.
Of course, this is not the first time you have done this to me, or to others for that matter. But, I guess I got a little tired of it this time.
Now, if you need more “proof” as you call it, send me an email and I will return you a list of no less than twenty books (BTW, I have read each one I will list for you.) you can read to verify I have made no embellishment here in the information I shared.
Sometimes Debbie, you do and say wrong things to people. And like you said of a “guy who used to work at LU”, you should just do the right thing and confess it for it is the right thing to do.
Thank you, C.B. I appreciate that comment.
With three family members in uniform, my ability to stomach extremist-fundamentalists like ‘Pastor’ Jones is somewhat strained.
The man needs to understand the true cost of his actions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZwnDVsbgWc
L’s,
One of my sons just joined the Marines. I think I have shared with you in the past others have gone before him. I sincerely pray that Terry Jones stands down on his threat.
Thank you, C.B.
God bless your son.
“Can you prove to me that there are “honor killings” in the Western Countries? If so why is the law not putting them in jail Lydia?” Killing is illegal in this country. You guys site stories with no proofs, it’s hard for me to swallow them if I have no link or source given. I could believe these stories if I could see them or hear of them on a news program. That is news and it would be reported somewhere.”
Thanks, CB. I had no idea that many had been reported here. There have been quite a few surfacing in Europe over the last decade. Even one is too much.
Debbie,
It is a huge concern because the Muslim communities are so tight knit and it can take a while to surface. Women are just invisible in that society and no one really questions anything the males do or question where someone is. If the father says she is visiting relatives, then she is. It is that simple.
A friend of mine has been working with Muslim immigrants with Catholic Charities. She is very concerned because the men will not allow the young adult women to talk to anyone alone. (even other adult non Muslim women) They “always” have to interpret even if there is another interpreter present.
They might go to jail when it is finally reported and investigated. But she is still dead because she became too Western or did not obey or whatever. She had no civil liberties within that community. And to have any, she would have to abandon her entire family. Islam is evil.
Stats are hard to find on honor killings because law enforcement reports them as domestic violence. The phrase honor killing isn’t PC.
Here’s an article
http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/latest/honor-killings-in-america
You have my apologies concerning sources for honor killings.
CB:
As I said earlier, let’s just throw any number out there that puts fear into people.
Tom Parker,
I did not “throw any number out.” I quoted the numbers as presented by government sources and those I referred you to earlier at Stanford University.
cb,
You could give the source fifty bazillion times and they will never accept it, because it isn’t what they want to believe. Evidence that contradicts their personal preferences is never going to be legitimate to them. Ugly facts are scary and negative, so it’s a sin to speak of them.
See?
On A Related Matter: Ten Good Reasons NOT to Burn the Quran…..
http://www.aolnews.com/opinion/article/opinion-10-good-reasons-not-to-burn-the-quran/19623434
Paula: Once again ad hominem attacks just aren’t going to cut it here. Facts need to be cited in order to give credibility. Embellishment seems to the norm among Christians and it shouldn’t. That is the sin. Lying. In America Muslims have the same rights we all do. Until they commit a crime(which honor killings is a crime here) they have the right to live peaceably and practice their religion freely just as we do. You are going to have to deal with that. It’s the Christian thing to do. We should give everyone the Gospel including Muslims. But to say that all are a certain way is simply not true. Embellishing the numbers to make a point is a lie. That is sin. Get the point here?
Debbie, “Deal with it” “Get over it”
Those are your logical, scholarly and “loving” responses.
But I am so glad that you agree about civil rights AFTER the woman is dead. Which is the whole point. Sharia does not recognize an adult woman’s civil liberties.
Lydia, I have come to accept that she really does consider such statements loving, logical, and scholarly, and that these are not “demands” but “requests”, and that there isn’t any conflict between the hard, cold, doctrine of Calvinism and her calling us who say nice Muslims and Mormons will surely go to heaven for being nice in spite of not knowing their niceness (oops– I mean Jesus) got them in.
The reason I cannot communicate with her and some others is because we apparently come from two different worlds. In my world, logic and love apply equally to everyone, scholarship means giving evidence instead of assertions, and a demand is a demand no matter who makes it.
And good point about a Muslim woman’s rights after she is dead. Honor killings will no longer be against the law when the Constitution (that document so hated by the left) is officially shredded in favor of the Qur’an everyone loves to tolerate. Then we will see Bibles burned and protesters murdered, executions without trials, whippings for the mere suspicion of adultery, and even homosexuals executed by hanging. That’s the country this place will turn into as soon as the Muslims have control, and they will call themselves Moderates.
We have been betrayed.
Typo correction for first paragraph: “… and her calling us who say nice Muslims…” should read “… and her saying nice Muslims”
Paula: Because I think Muslims in this country ought to be treated well, have the same liberties as we do, that we should accept that they are American citizens due the same rights as we are, where in any of that have I said all nice Muslims etc. go to heaven. Paula that is a lie and you know that. I have told you what I believe in no uncertain terms. I have posts on my blog that deal with salvation. There is only one way to eternal life, and that is belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God who died on the cross, rose again on the third day. Let’s see what number comment is this so I can just point to it whenever you have nothing else to counteract with but to try and destroy?
You must keep with the facts here and Lydia most Muslims in this country do not believe in honor killing. Killing one human to them is killing all humans including Muslims. Doing good to one human is doing good to all.
My point and I will be blunt as I have said this before is bigotry is seeping in and fear mongering. I am a Christian and if I am going to do anything it is love and care for people and that includes Muslims. I long for them to come to Christ, but to paint all Muslims as radicals is bigotry and hatred period. Yes, we know there are fanatics. No I do not think the Mosque should be built on Ground Zero as it is the victims in this that should be considered. Go to CNN, Larry King, and watch the show from last night that deals with this very issue.
The discussion was with Imam Rauf. You can read some of it here:
http://larrykinglive.blogs.cnn.com/
Debbie has long ago lost the right to keep demanding responses from people, calling us liars and denying what she herself has repeatedly stated (or refused to state). She has made it clear that Mormons and Muslims can get to heaven without knowing that Jesus died for them (the latter explicitly denying it). She thinks that Jesus saved even those who deny that He is the one and only Son of God, and apparently sees no conflict between that and the Calvinist teaching of God forcing “faith” upon people.
So her marked and framed comment #781 will indeed be remembered in every future instance where she claims one does NOT need to know that it was the Jesus of the Bible (Son of God, died for our sins, rose again— that Jesus as opposed to the Muslim or Mormon one) who made their salvation possible. But she has still given only a PARTIAL gospel.
Since even the demons believe the facts about the real Jesus and know who He is, yet are not saved, we must understand that anyone who comes to God must want to be reconciled with Him— and that means HIM, not some generic god who has no son or is only one of millions of gods of other worlds. A person simply CANNOT be saved without these two critical elements: the right DOCTRINE about Jesus, and the right ATTITUDE toward God, forsaking all others and trusting ONLY Him to save them.
Such people will immediately RENOUNCE false gods such as Allah or the gods of Mormonism, RENOUNCE false religious books such as the Quran and the Book of Mormon, RENOUNCE antichrists (“in the place of”) such as the explicit claim of the papacy and Mohammad and Joseph Smith, and CONFESS that only personal faith in the risen Jesus can save, and that only the Bible is the Word of God.
From all her comments in blogs the past several years, she has vilified anyone who insists upon these requirements, calling it “doctrine” that is somehow the opposite of love. Has she changed her tune now? Only partially, and only time will tell if she holds to this change from her prior statements / omissions.
There is only one way to eternal life, and that is belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God who died on the cross, rose again on the third day.
But what you WON’T say is that the person who is saved by Christ knows that it is Christ doing the saving. You believe that a muslim can be saved by Christ but not realize that Jesus saved them. They’re worshiping allah but they don’t realize that it is Jesus that saved them. You believe that muslims worship God, the Father of Jesus Christ.
So, what the real problem is is that Paula has your number and has called you on it. So you measure your words as in the quote above so that it appears that you believe the gospel (that salvation is exclusively found in Christ) but you leave out the part that you know isn’t biblical–that someone doen’t have to know Christ is saving them for Christ to save them.
Paula:
You said:”You could give the source fifty bazillion times and they will never accept it, because it isn’t what they want to believe. Evidence that contradicts their personal preferences is never going to be legitimate to them. Ugly facts are scary and negative, so it’s a sin to speak of them”
I see you are still in the flame baiting mode.
Tom Parker,
In all truth, I have given you sources. Paula is correct in pointing that out. Yet, you continually make statements as if I did not. You also have seemingly tried to play the role of an antagonist here rather than to discuss the issue at hand.
So maybe you should do a little reflecting before you call another’s hand at “flame baiting” don’t you think?
“Because I think Muslims in this country ought to be treated well, have the same liberties as we do, that we should accept that they are American citizens due the same rights as we are, where in any of that have I said all nice Muslims etc.”
Debbie, Can you explain how Muslims here do not have the same civil rights here? Perhaps you were thinking of their women? I agree with that which is why Islam is incompatable with our Bill of Rights.
There have been honor killings in England and other parts of Europe. How do you know there have been none here? It took a while to figure out some of them. One really bizarre one occured in England. One father killed his daughter for her Western ways then hacked her into pieces, put her in several suitcases and buried her out in the country. It took a while but people finally figured out she was not simply away from home visiting relatives.
Good comments here about Koran burning and all that…
http://comments.americanthinker.com/read/1/668168.html
CB:
I give up, you are not going to give your sources to support the unbelievable number of 300,000,000 in your words Extremists.
BTW, I am not suprised at all at anything that Paula would say.
Tom Parker,
One more time: You can get most everything I have stated here from the reports of the Hoover Institution of Stanford University. I have given you that source not once but twice this afternoon and evening.
I also directed you to an earlier comment on this thread to other sources. One of which is a book by Don Richardson entitled: Secrets of the Koran.
Look Tom, you are not going to anger me. So stop trying if that is your goal. I am still going to visit you on campus next week at Surry. As I told you earlier, a friend living in the Triad has a child who is a student there and we are coming over together. I would like to take you to lunch. Naturally, I will pay for the meal. How about the Lantern Restaurant? Have you eaten there? I hear it is pretty good.
How do you get to this information CB? I am on the site and still can’t find it.
Debbie,
I did not get those numbers from a site. I got them from the actual reports and the books.
Reports and books…what novel ideas! (no pun intended) Seems everything today is all about links, links, links…Soundbites and youtube clips. a book? a published hardcopy book? what an ancient you are, CB.
selahV
I was just thinking the same thing. I’ve lost count of the times people have dismissed a cited source just because they couldn’t find it free online. Libraries are so last century.
But I’ll tellya what… as much as I love the convenience of teh internetz, the time will soon be upon us when it is no more, or is tightly controlled, and certain “voices” will be silenced. That’s why I’m hoping to save up for some printed copies of things like the LSJ and eventually print the Greek interlinear study tool I’ve been working on.
Paula, yes…as much as I’d like to think you’re wrong, I believe the day will come, and is probably fast approaching, that we will have our fingers hampered from finding facts and being able to relate them. So much for an uncensored society. selahV
Oh so I can’t check them to substantiate their truthfulness. *Sigh.
I guess you were absent the day they taught “research” in school. Just becaue there isn’t a link doesn’t mean someone doesn’t have a source and that it can’t be verfied. Well, unless you’re lazy.
Christians recognize that no other religion worships God, the Father of Jesus Christ. Jews have perverted the faith of Abraham. Mormons worship a pretend god made up by a man who claimed he got revelation from an angel named Moroni. Get it? Moron? Muslims worship a pretend god based on the blatherings of a man who consumated a marriage to a nine year old girl which makes him a pedophile.
Chritians also recognize that Jesus will not save anyone from these false religions without them repenting of their sins, placing their faith in Him, and knowing that He is the one saving them.
Suck it up and deal with it, Steven.
So I guess Joe, what you are telling Nick Saban and Barbara Dooley, is; As long as they are winning football games and keeping your folks in the Pew Satisfied about the SEC and more ready to give money on Sunday Morning; you will overlook their suspected encouragement of folks like Somerville at FBC Richmond or Parham, or for that Matter Frank Page’s reluctance to condemn everyone you condemn; so doesn’t that make you kind of an accommodationist as well. ARen’t you really complicit in the things you say you despise and only ridicule me cause I have no influence over the people in your pew who give you money like Nick Saban and Barbara Dooley as long as Bama and UT are winning.
Or did I miss your point somewhere?
Yep. Pretty much. Your idiotic suggetion that I can only cheer for football teams whose coaches agree with me is infantile. I shop places where I would be the owners don’t agree with me. I work with people, some of whom agree and some of whom don’t. I have no idea if the guy conducting the train this morning agrees with me and I didn’t ask him before I boarded. I have no clue what my mechanic thinks about theology but I still pay him to fix my car.
So, your dodging of the point is interesting and probably helps you sleep at night, but it doesn’t change the fact that I can back every one of my ponits up with FACTS from SCRIPTURE and you CAN’T. What that means is–I’m right and you are wrong.
Suck it up and deal with it.
Anybody knows that you cite your source so that it can be verified. That is writing 101 Joe. You must have missed that course. The National Enquirer missed that course too.
He did cite his source. You demanded that it be a link that you could click through. Only lazy people demand links.
Debbie,
I did not say that at all and you know that. You asked me about a “site.” I stated that I did not get the information from a site. I named one book and I named the reports of the Hoover Institution.
I guess you could call the Hoover Institution and ask for the information and I know you can read the book.
Debbie, your efforts to create a perception that I am just making this up and that I am lying is fine with me. As I told you earlier, if you prove the numbers wrong, we will both be glad. That will be a good thing. All I know is the report is 300,000,000. I hope the report is wrong.
The numbers you gave are bad enough. You gave 5 0t 10 percent of 1.8 billion are Extremists. Debbie, that would be between 90,000,000 to 180,000,000.
Debbie, the numbers you gave are far more than necessary to create continual horror on this earth.
Certainly you already realize how terrible the situations in places like Sudan, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Somalia, Djibouti, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Algeria, Iran, Afghanistan, Egypt, France, England, The United States, Spain, Indonesia, and various other places have been due to Islamic terrorism?
Debbie, are you sure you do not just want to discredit the messenger over and above knowing the truth?
Have it your way Debbie. My original point to you was that the comparison of the person who killed the abortion doctor was nothing to what was taking place in the world at the hands of Islamic Extremists.
So let’s just take the numbers you offered and let mine fall by the wayside. Let’s use your numbers.
My point was that the numbers of extremists are of such a great number that it is not to stereotype to speak of a world wide danger due to Islamic Extremists. Your comparison to the person who killed the abortion doctor was unbalanced. There are no where near 90,000,000 to 180,000,000 “so called” Christian Extremists on the planet.
The actions of the few twisted so called Christians in the world do not compare to the real numbers of Islamic Extremists and what they have done around the world to innocent people.
That is my only point Debbie.
300,000,000, 180,000,000 or even 90,000,000 Islamic Extremists are far and away enough to make our world a very dangerous place. Don’t you think so Debbie?
“Debbie, are you sure you do not just want to discredit the messenger over and above knowing the truth?”
Bingo.
“My point was that the numbers of extremists are of such a great number that it is not to stereotype to speak of a world wide danger due to Islamic Extremists. Your comparison to the person who killed the abortion doctor was unbalanced. There are no where near 90,000,000 to 180,000,000 “so called” Christian Extremists on the planet.”
Double Bingo.
Paula:
You said:”The reason I cannot communicate with her and some others is because we apparently come from two different worlds.”
A truer statement could not have been said by yourself. You are definitely not living in the world I live in.
Concerning apples and oranges:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html
Concerning double standards:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/09/the_question_is_whose_books_ar.html
Paula:
I looked at your link. I am glad Samford University in Bham Alabama for one promotes Martin Accad and the likes of Charles Kimball and Parham’s Common Word documentary, which I think provides a better way of looking at this issue than your AmThinker fellow.
Tom,
What do Cough-man and Don Quixote pay you to serve as their apologist? I mean, is it at least 4 figures?
BTW, you never did answer the question: What are some things the folks to whom I am so mean have in common (I’ll give you a hint–theology)?
That’s just an excuse Joe. You know it and I know it. I’ll take my theology any day of the week if it keeps me from being and behaving like you.
Tom, Joe knows I wish he would give up name-calling. But I would ask you why HIS name-calling is bad, but yours is okay.
Either name-calling is wrong for everyone or right for everyone. You can’t have it both ways.
Joe, even when you’re holding your tongue it isn’t good enough. Apparently they’ve never read Luke 17:4, which I’ll paste here to help them out: “Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them”.
I’ve seen you ask people to forgive you for going over the line at times, and know you are trying to improve. But they don’t care and just ignore this verse as if they are exempt. They have you (and me) labeled and that’s that. Giant logs in their own eyes, but no matter; the splinters in others’ eyes are all they can see.
Meet the Press on NBC this morning questions CB Scott’s numbers and Dee Dee Myers makes a statement begging for Richard Land to discuss with Karl Rove and Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck; easily googled up
I don’t see my post. Can you tell me why such an important connection was removed?
Dave Miller:
You said:”Tom, Joe knows I wish he would give up name-calling. But I would ask you why HIS name-calling is bad, but yours is okay.
Either name-calling is wrong for everyone or right for everyone. You can’t have it both ways.”
Let’s put it this way Dave, Paula and Mr. Blackmon spur me on in the name calling business.
I guess since they persist, I will persist also.
They both have convinced me that name calling is right for everyone.
Quilty as you noted.
Tom, you’ve been calling names long before Paula and Joe joined the blog-world, haven’t you?
It seems you keep forgetting to read the whole passage Paula.
Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
Exactly what have I forgotten, Debbie? Has Joe caused others to sin? Is he seducing children now, Debbie? What do the preceding verses do to change “forgive as long as they repent” into something else? This only shows that you have no clue what context is or how to argue a point.
The point, which you tried to ignore, is that people accuse Joe of LYING when he says he’s trying to improve. They, not he or I, ignore this verse which so clearly and unambiguously INDICTS them for their refusal to forgive and their calling Joe a liar. That is the point and the meaning of the verse in context. Deny it if you wish but don’t expect to be taken seriously.
Your exegesis is horrible Paula.
Wouldn’t it be possible to say, “I disagree with your exegesis.”
Apparently not. And if you ask her why it’s okay for her to say such arrogant, negative things, she’ll say she’s only “confronting” me in “love”. And that’s why I need to resolve not to try anymore.
I think we could all resolve to communicate better. You can state something and even disagree without name-calling and derogation. I wish everyone would try.
I’m sick of reading the comments here.
Dave Miller,
I think, my brother, you are painting with a very broad brush when you say you are “sick of reading the comment here.”
I have done nothing in this comment thread other than to try to say on topic other than a football comment or two. I have tried to avoid any reference to the CR or other “flash” topics in the SBC.
Yesterday and last evening, I gave information I had read or heard from credible sources as to the nature of radical Islam. I was accused of lying and bigotry. I shed no blood none the less. (although tempted and it would have been easy as it always is considering the opposition)
So my brother, if you are going to chastise today, I would appreciate it if you would be case specific and shoot with a rifle of high quality rather than a shotgun you bought at a yard sale.
Yes, CB, I was painting with a broad brush-stroke, not referring to every commenter. It was a general observation – that I am embarrassed to read the interactions of people who are leaders in their churches.
Each of us is responsible for our own behavior and I am not your judge or anyone else’s. When I made my comment, I had others in mind, CB, not you. (Not this time, at least!!!)
I don’t think so in this case Dave.
It’s horrible.
Huggy-Bear Dave,
I knew you would understand my point of order, for I know you love me as you would an aging father. I consider you as my own son even though you are a low-down, Carpetbaggin’ Yankee and have no real concept of the game of football due to living in a sub-nation within the Football Galaxy. At least you are a Southern Baptist with a fairly high degree of savvy and theological development with the exception of a deficient ecclesiology.
Huggy-Bear, I recently heard from a very good congregation down here on the SEC continent that I think you would be perfect for and would give you an opportunity to learn the glory of real football and also might influence you to leave off being a Yankee fan and come among the free thinking, highly intelligent Braves fans. Let me know if you want me to give them your name. They are a merciful people and I think they would be willing to help a Yankee Southern Baptist pastor become a real, full-fledged Southern Southern Baptist pastor. Of course, I would have to agree to teach you what foods are fit to eat and how to talk right. But, I think you catch on pretty quick, so that won’t be much of a burden for me to bear.
Also, but of great importance, that Babe Ruth poster will have to go. The first thing we will do is get you an autographed picture of the great Willie Mays to start you off right.
Yankee born, Yankee bred.
When I die, I’ll be Yankee dead.
Hello Folks,
I just found another guy who has obviously seen the same estimates of Islamic Extremists as I.
David Jeremiah, Pastor of Shadow Mountain, presents the same number: 300,000,000.
He stated, that 300,000,000 “Muslims are radical enough to strap a bomb on their bodies in order to kill Christians and Jews….three hundred million Muslims are willing to die in order to take you and me down.”
CB: I have looked and looked. I just don’t see anywhere near that number to backthis figure. It’s way overblown as far as I can tell, although it only takes a small number of terrorists as seen on 9/11. Tom Ascol had a good post today on his blog.
Particularly interesting was this which Tom wrote which mirror my own thoughts:
I love Muslim people. Because of that I want them to have the very best things in the world. The greatest of all things is the forgiveness of sins and new life that comes through trusting Jesus Christ as Lord. I want Muslims, and everyone, to experience this. Burning their holy book will no more serve this purpose than burning the idols in 1st century Athens would have served Paul’s burden to make Christ known to the citizens of that city.
Most Muslims are not fanatics who want to kill infidels. But even those kinds of radicals must be viewed through the eyes of biblical faith. In one sense they are our enemies because they have set themselves against Jesus as the incarnate Son of God and against those who call Him Lord. But our Lord has taught us that we, like He, must love even our enemies (Matthew 5:44). Love does what is good, not evil, to the one loved.
In another sense, however, even radical Muslims are not our real enemies. Paul reminds us of this in Ephesians when he says that “we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places” (6:12). Those who set themselves up as the enemies of Jesus Christ and His followers should be regarded as captives of our real enemy and in need of deliverance.
http://blog.founders.org/2010/09/terry-jones-quran-burning-and-way-of.html
CB: I have looked and looked. I just don’t see anywhere near that number to backthis figure
1–Have you looked and looked in the books cb cited as his source? No, you most certainly have not.
2–So, since The Debbie has spoken that she can’t find the numbers to back this figure then it certainly can’t be right? Um, arrogant much?
The information I read from government sources estimates several thousand, which is quite a large number but contends that it is weakening, although still strong enough to do damage. They are well funded which is also dangerous, but a far cry from the number you and David Jeremiah along with a couple of other Christians on the internet have given. This seems to be a number based on rumor and conjecture without facts.
I might also add that if we react to anything based on fear, that is foolish. Al Quaeda lives off of our fear, which is why President Bush encouraged us to go about our daily lives after 9/11. Number one. Dumb things are done due to fear, most fear is baseless and a figment of our imagination, and fear is what gives the enemy power.
fear is what gives the enemy power.
Gosh, you’re right. It’s not like they get power from those bombs they strap to their bodies. Those are just for show, right?
Oh, but because The Debbie says it’s only thousands and is weakening that proves it. What was that you were blathering about earlier. Oh, that’s right. You said “Anybody knows that you cite your source so that it can be verified. That is writing 101 Joe“. So, cb has to site his source and it has to be a link because The Debbie doggone well says so but we’re supposed to just take your word for it?
Debbie,
I doubt seriously that anyone on this board thus far would seek to refute Ascol’s statement. I know I don’t. And I have basically said the same, not only in this thread, but in others. Frankly, I have said the same in many venues at various times.
I have not said “all” Muslims are radicals as you implied that I did. I said it is reported that of a worldwide population of 1.5 billion followers of Islam, 300,000,000 are of an extremist nature.
I did not make those numbers up. I did not embellish anything. And now, I have found another Southern Baptist who obviously read or heard the same estimates. The quote from David Jeremiah is not an embellishment on my part either.
Debbie, for whatever reason, you seem have come to a place wherein you consider any person who disagrees with you as somehow inferior or a liar with an agenda against you personally.
Maybe you ought to take a little time and reflect on some of the things you say to people of late. You are seeing monsters where no monster exists. Sometimes life just has a way of doing that to us all without our realizing it. At least, that has been my experience on occasion.
“I am a Christian and if I am going to do anything it is love and care for people and that includes Muslims. I long for them to come to Christ, but to paint all Muslims as radicals is bigotry and hatred period.”
Any true believer would long for them to come to Christ. That is a moot point.
How is Khan, your best friend?
He is doing very well. Thank you for asking.
We have just missed his comments on your site. It has been a while.
He’s not SBC Lydia. As you know he is not a Christian. He would have no reason to comment on my site. We will always be friends and we are still in contact.
The Quran burning has been cancelled.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/US-Church-Cancels-Quran-Burning-102571464.html
He wasn’t SBC or a Christian when he was commenting before? So, I do not understand that exactly as a criteria…as I was thinking of the subsequent Caner posts you had written that he did not comment on. I suppose his work was done by then.
Who is he working on outing now? Has he shared that with you?
I, for one, am thankful that Terry Jones has taken good counsel and is going to stand down on the book-burning.
That is a good thing and for many reasons.
Lydia: I will never apologize for working with and befriending Mohammad. He was right. More than right and I was proud and am proud that we worked together on the Caner issue. I would work with him again in a heartbeat. No apologies from me. Ever.
CB: I agree with you about Terry Jones. Too many lives would have been at stake had he continued with his plan. I hope he continues in this decision.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/ground-zero-imam-issues-veiled-threat-if-mega-mosque-isnt-built-anger-will-explode-in-the-muslim-wor.html
I’m noticing a pattern here…
You won’t let us build a victory mosque? There might be violence, and it will be your fault.
You burn Korans? There might be violence, and it will be your fault.
Threats and appeasement, where have we seen this before?
Someone else pointed this out, but this is my biggest disagreement against burning the Quran. It doesn’t do anything in giving the Gospel. In fact it is the opposite. It is defiance and hate. It is going to produce more defiance and hate.
Right-wing pot stirring: it doesn’t get any better than this
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/august262010/fox-mosque-funding-gd.php
Fox News owner Alwaleed bin Talal, who, according to Fox News, has ties to terrorist organizations and the Iranian government, also owns, of course, Fox News and pays the salaries of those who say the man funding the Ground Zero Mosque is a terrorist.
What Fox News fails to mention is that the terrorist they are speaking of is their owner, Alwaleed bin Talal.
Fox news sees no inconsistencies in openly accusing their ownership of direct associations with terrorist organizations and in doing so, tying themselves and their news department directly to terrorism.
Fox analysts point out that Alwaleed bin Talal and his Kingdom Foundation have funded extremist organizations that have endangered the American people and helped foster world terrorism.
The “Terror Prince”, HRH Alwaleed bin Talal, cited by Fox News as supporting radical Islam and fomenting the growth of terrorist organizations, personally runs the Kingdom Foundation charity funding the “Ground Zero Mosque” in addition to his co-ownership of Fox News/News Corp with Israeli-American investor Rupert Murdoch.
One of the strongest challenges to Richard Land’s position on the NYC Mosque is now online. Will be interesting to see how Land continues to call himself a child of George Truett with this position:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16657
General Petraeus and Jerry Vines are interesting object lessons in this provocative essay. And my hero Sayyid Syeed from the conversation Jan 09 with Charles Kimball and Anne Graham Lotz Bro in law Denton Lotz at Andover Newton.
Remarkable and prophetic essay this morning, and most timely:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16658
I am proud of President Obama:
For whatever its worth I want to go on record as being very Proud of the President of the United States, the man I voted for, with whom I had every intention of walking across the Selma Bridge with the first Sunday in March of 2007; I want to go on the record here and I Hope my sentiment comes to the attention of Richard Land. Al Mohler,Russ Moore and Jerry Vines; I thought he was most eloquent in his closing remark in the News Conference that just ended in response to the reporter from Fox News, on the Wisdom of the NYC Mosque
QUOTE I Hope my sentiment comes to the attention of Richard Land. END QUOTE
“Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought” (Rom. 12:3)
An honest question: those who are falling all over the words of unity by the Traveling Imam–does it concern you that the Koran encourages lying to infidels if necessary to bring them to ultimate submission to Allah, the Moon God?
Here’s my logic: if everything a devout Muslim does is guided by the Koran and the Koran supports lying to infidels, how can anyone take seriously anything an Imam says? Can a devout Imam be expected to act in a way contrary to the clear teaching of the Koran?
President Obama from his News conference Sept 10 as reported in NY Times:
Asked about the wisdom of building an Islamic center a few blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks, Mr. Obama reiterated his position that Muslims have the right to build a mosque on the site, without directly saying whether he thought doing so was a good idea.
“This country stands for the proposition that all men and women are created equal, that they have certain inalienable rights,” Mr. Obama said. “And what that means is that if you could build a church on a site, you could build a synagogue on a site, if you could build a Hindu temple on a site, then you should be able to build a mosque on the site.”
Urged on by their religious leaders, Afghans in many locations around the country poured out of their mosques and took to the streets Friday morning, and in most cases the demonstrations remained peaceful. But two of them turned violent, in both cases outside NATO reconstruction bases, and a total of at least 12 people were wounded, three of them critically, in addition to the one who was killed.
While Mr. Obama cast the issue in terms of American national security and the impact of assaults on Islam in this country on American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, he also said that security was not the only prism through which the issue should be viewed. “We’ve got millions of Muslim Americans, our fellow citizens, in this country,” Mr. Obama said. “They’re going to school with our kids. They’re our neighbors. They’re our friends. They’re our co-workers. And when we start acting as if their religion is somehow offensive, what are we saying to them?”
This ninth anniversary of Sept. 11 has turned almost into a referendum on America’s ability to coexist with the multitude religions. Mr. Obama will be observing the anniversary at the Pentagon, while the first lady, Michelle Obama, will join the former first lady Laura Bush in Shanksville, Pa., the site where the fourth hijacked plane went down. Mr. Obama said that it was important to remember that Muslims are fighting with the United States in the two wars begun since the attacks.
“They’re out there putting their lives on the line for us,” Mr. Obama said. “And we’ve got to make sure that we are crystal clear for our sakes and their sakes: they are Americans and we honor their service. And part of honoring their service is making sure that they understand that we don’t differentiate between them and us.
“It’s just us.”
A Duke Muslim Scholar is concerned of what appears to be a WA Criswell Like inclination of too many clergy in his Faith.
He laments seems to me similar conundrum Roy Honeycutt and Cecil Sherman and Lolley faced in the late 70′s in the SBC.
Quoting:
Many of the most prominent Muslim religious and moral authorities the world over—clergy, intellectuals, scholars, politicians—have, through silence and inaction, invited a plague of craven violence on a number of Muslim societies. In a manner of speaking, in many places, the asylum is in charge of the mosque. Religious leaders are more interested in cowing to public adulation through demagoguery than in showing courage and exhorting people to piety and sanity.
From:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3302/god_bless_islam_with_courageous_leadership/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w
This is a must see if you want to be educated about Islam. It is only 8 min but show 3 things about Islam that everyone should know upfront. And each one is completely true and folks would know if they would only do their homework.
This video is produced by a non Christian, non Jew so he cannot be accused of being a hateful fundy or part of the CR.
This might help to understand why an “interfaith dialogue” with Islam is a waste of time. Direct witnessing about the truth of Jesus Christ is what is needed.
Oh, and one does not need to yell when they witness.
)
LYDIA,
the following is sort of a rant, but don’t take it personally.
I’m upset at a group that stole the name of an organization honored by the Holocaust Memorial Museum, of which I am an advocate.
there is a problem that you may not be aware of: the group which posts your video is NOT the same as the group that is honored by the Holocaust Memorial Museum.
Your video publishers are not in ANY WAY connected to the honorable group whose name they stole.
They are a German hate group that stole a name from some very honorable people and tried to pass themselves off as having some gravitas from that stolen name, as long as people didn’t see through them.
Pitiful.
It’s strange that they would use that name . . . the name of a group that had to fight off those who practiced the hideous ways of stereotyping, intolerance, and prejudice. Just goes to show you how vigilant you have to be, in order not to get sucked into what is a lie. Here is a reference:
MOSQUE OPPOSITION THREATENS AMERICA – Our Town – Connecticut News
Aug 23, 2010 … These include an anti-Islam video produced by a German group known as The White Roses, which has the audacity to take its name from The White Rose,
http://blog.ctnews.com/rutgers/2010/08/23/mosque-opposition-threatens-america/
Christiane, I will forgo your link but whomever the group is ….they get Islam right in the video. Not sure what your hypothesis proves…it certainly does not prove the video is wrong when facts back it up about what Islam teaches.
I know because I have done my homework.
I am also an advocate of the Holocaust Museum. And I am anti Islam. I cannot abide by a religion (ideology with it’s own civil law)
that says a man can beat his wife or kill homosexuals.
Very simply this:
when a group who advocates certain beliefs steal their name from another historical group who is very famous for fighting intolerance, stereotyping, and the results of these abuses,
there is an HONESTY problem;
particularly when the stealers advocate intolerance, stereotyping, etc. It is an attempted perversion of a reputation, in this case, and must be pointed out, for the sake and the memory of the original group.
BTW, have you thoroughly read the web site for the Holocaust Memorial Museum? You might want to do that before you state that you are an advocate. I think you will be very surprised by some of what you read there. I recommend that site for everyone, as I think we can all learn something important there that must not be forgotten in our own time.
“I think you will be very surprised by some of what you read there.”
What exactly are you trying to imply about me? I would appreciate directness.
Did you see anything in the video itself that was false?
1 Corinthians 13 Lydia. That is full scripture Lydia. That is doctrine. Doctrine to be lived not just talked about.
I think you will be VERY surprised by some of what you read there.
LYDIA: you wrote this:
“What exactly are you trying to imply about me? I would appreciate directness.” in response to my comment of
““I think you will be very surprised by some of what you read there.”
Hope this helps you a bit, as it ties into the Holocaust experience and is ‘right on’ the meaning of my comment to you:
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5696/9/
“I remember the first time it became crystal clear to me that there is no such thing as Christianity, but only competing Christianities. It was when I was working on my doctoral dissertation on Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust. During that time I attended a most remarkable conference in New York on hidden children of the Holocaust. This gathering brought together the now-grown adults who had hidden from the Nazis to survive. Some of these children were saved by Christian families.
The most memorable speaker for me was a hidden child, and now a sociologist, named Nechama Tec. A Polish Jew, she survived the war hiding with Christians. She was asked after her address whether it was Christianity that motivated her rescuers. Her unforgettable response went like this: “It wasn’t just any kind of Christianity that would motivate a rescuer. Only a certain kind of Christianity would lead someone to risk their lives for us.”
A certain kind of Christianity — the phrase stayed with me. It is enormously helpful. From hard experience, young Nechama Tec learned the difference between versions of Christianity that teach hatred of the religious/ethnic other and versions that teach sacrificial and inclusive love. Her very survival depended on being able to tell the difference between these competing Christianities and the people who embodied them. ” Davod Gushee
There was a time, Lydia, when the ‘difference’ meant life or death for Jewish children. That is why I was ‘surprised’ to find that you are an advocate for the Museum, and I must say I was pleased to hear it, also.
Something about ‘the difference’ cuts right to the heart of how the ‘others’ see Christianity. And it should.
Both things that not that long ago Christians advocated Lydia.
The point was that the Gospel is doctrine. And doctrine is love. They are one and the same.
“1 Corinthians 13 Lydia. That is full scripture Lydia. That is doctrine. Doctrine to be lived not just talked about.”
Debbie, Nevermind, I have failed to communicate once again. Have a great week!
Maybe this is short and sweet enough that Dave Miller or cb won’t critizise it as being “silly” or “ugly” respectively. The SBC has wrapped its arms around the Republican Party so tightly that when their is a climate change as in Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia and Florida that turns the State from Red to Blue, the reverberations are felt in the denomination along with the effects of the recession. When the Democratic Party sees fit to exploit this relation ship there will either be a mad rush to join or when it is pointed out some of the extremist groups that are associated there will be an exodus. That won’t be “silly” but maybe “ugly”. How shallow is that? Others are ahead in their thinking.
Christianne spoke on #863 and since Catholics are not sometimes included by some people when talking about Christians I feel obligated after reading about your Doctoral paper to point out that Catholic Churchs as well as Catholic Orphanages took in young Jewish children sometimes with happy endings and sometimes not. But the pain endured and the courage and bravery shown belittle off color remarks from some folks who have never left town. I went by the Statue of the Lady in New York harbor on the S.S. United States when I was 14 by myself and somewhat independent to live with an Uncle in Germany for about 4 years. That was part of my “college education” which has given me the insight to speak and get my every blog looked at to see if it is nice enough or appropriate. Just look at where the White Supremicist and other Hate groups are congregating and who they are encouraging and worse yet who gives them encouragement. Don’t be too thin skinned and don’t think you’re smarter than you are or you’re going to be taken -time and again. Adios .
Jack has a good point. I would like to point him and others there are grand discussions on this matter at Both SBCimpact.net frequented by David Rogers, and at http://www.baptistlife.com/forums where Aaron Weaver among others share insight, as well as a Fellow Sandy, one of the most articulate folks remaining in the SBC I have come across in these various Baptist blog universes.
I was reading a book by former CIA fellow who has spent most of his life in the Mideast trying to fathom this conundrum. He makes the most practical sense I have seen to date. His insight into the politics of the Abrahamic Traditions is remarkable, as well as his prescriptions of ways we may possibly coexist on the planet with lessenned anxiety about random violence.
Jack, that was written by David Gushee.
I referred to it for a blogger who has shared that she also is an advocate of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum,
and I particularly wanted to emphasize this quote from Dr. Gushee:
“the difference between versions of Christianity that teach hatred of the religious/ethnic other and versions that teach sacrificial and inclusive love.”
as Dr. Gushee’s quote applied to the honest observations of a ‘hidden child’ who had recognized that profound difference between the two types of ‘Christianity’, in the hour of her own peril.
I am grateful for Dr. Gushee’s research, as I hope it helps all of us to understand that you cannot have ‘a spirit of sacrificial and inclusive love’ co-existing with a spirit of ‘hatred of the religious/ethnic other’. Dr. Gushee’s article was written in response to the actions of the Florida ‘pastor’ Jones who wished to burn the holy book of another faith, while our own troops were serving in the countries of the people of that faith.
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