When I first heard of the mosque being built at Ground Zero in New York City, I questioned the wisdom of choosing that site. It wasn’t till conversations got heated, reheated, and burned to a crisp that I began to truly make up my mind about it all. I fluctuated between sympathies to one side, and “how dare they” to the other.
Some say it’s a matter of sensitivity to those who lost loved ones on 9-11 that the Muslim Mosque should choose another site. I empathize, I truly do. I have difficulty in sharing what I believe is more important. As a Christian, I think, it is because of the sensitivity to the entire subject matter–Islam versus ”whatever”–that I cannot remain silent. To me, it is not about compassion for those who lost loved ones, nor is it the freedom of religion to build a mosque near Ground-Zero in New York City.
This is about Jesus. It is about opening doors, building foundations to share the Gospel. Muslims do not know what (or Who) we know. They don’t know Jesus. Muslims who practice their faith trust in their own goodness to get them to heaven. We trust in the righteousness of Christ. When we show them we do not want them around, we cannot show them Jesus. When we condemn them for what they think and believe, we cannot begin to reach them. Can we?
The mad-men who flew jetliners into the Twin Towers on 9-ll, are no more examples of rational worshiping moderate Muslims, than Timothy McVeigh is an example of rational, worshiping born-again evangelical Christians. To say that American Muslims who practice the Islamic faith cannot build a mosque two blocks from Ground-Zero would be the same as saying, to them, that American Christians who practice their faith in Christ could not build a church near the Oklahoma City site that Timothy McVeigh bombed because McVeigh claimed to be a Christian.
Our argument might be, ”That’s ludicrous! Just because Timothy McVeigh claimed to be a Christian doesn’t mean he practiced Christianity. Christians do not condone what he did in Oklahoma City. We want to build our church there to act as a open-door to show love and life–not hate and violence.”
Is our argument any stronger than the Muslims who want to build a Mosque in New York? Is it any weaker?
I’m more concerned about what the words of Christians today are saying to Muslims as this controversy gains more and more attention, and the debates get louder and louder. Does continued anger and hatred for those who bombed the Twin Towers do anything to further the Gospel message to those who practice Islamic faith today?
We do not worship a prophet as they do. We worship God Incarnate–Jesus Christ. What message are we sending by lumping all Muslims into the same group as the 9-11 terrorists? Are we making it easier to reach them with the Truth of Christ by blaming all Muslims for what a few have done and do? Or are we making it harder?
Perhaps we should stop throwing stones at the Mosque, and begin reaching for building blocks. Let them build their mosque. Then, let someone (the SBC?) build a church and Cafe Court next door and invite them all in to worship and dinner afterwards. I’m just weighing in on a topic I find as opportune for the Great Commission. What are your thoughts? selahV
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Maybe there would be less opposition if the place wasn’t going to be named “Cordoba House”.
SelahV,
How is your argument any different from me saying, “I should be thrilled if they put a strip club right beside my house, that way I can share the gospel.”
Any difference?
No one is saying they are not welcome in America, we are merely wanting them to not build a mosque at one specific site. They really have to build a mosque at ground zero for us to share the gospel? We can’t do it if they build it somewhere else?
I sympathize with your reasoning, but your logic seems to fall short, IMHO.
I don’t lump in all Muslims with the 9-11 terrorists, but it was in fact their religion that led some men to murder thousands of people at the site they want to build a mosque. Not only is it extremely insensitive, but the fact that America is allowing it shows that we are a bunch of cowards hiding behind “freedom.”(im not calling you a coward- im talking about the officials who are approving this).
Matt Svoboda:
No one is saying that the people who lost loved ones at Ground-Zero “should be thrilled” about a mosque being built at a place they consider sacred ground. Surely not me; that would be totally illogical and horrendously insensitive. Nor do I propose that “you” should be “thrilled” that Muslims would build a mosque there. Are you saying that I am? Indeed that would be silly of me.
Yes, Matt–big difference between our arguments. Sorry if my logic falls short in your “humble” opinion.
I believe that I, as a Christian, need to get my feelings out of the way and allow those who seek to lawfully build their building, to build it. To disagree with them on religious grounds or grounds of sensibility would be no different than them conceding to the protests, then building their mosque twelve blocks away, then them turning around and protesting Christians from building a church next door to their mosque because Christianity is at odds with Islam faith. Or a VFW from being built next door to the mosque when the VFW is honoring veterans who died as they fought to bring freedom to the people of Iraq but killed innocent Muslims in the process.
That aside, my main concern is not the building of the mosque but the angry, hateful, rhetorical arguments that so many are being inflamed to shout at the very idea that any Muslim could be anything other than kin to the 9-11 terrorists who were radical extremists.
You ask: “They really have to build a mosque at ground zero for us to share the gospel? We can’t do it if they build it somewhere else?”
No, Matt. That would also be silly of me to say, now wouldn’t it?
I didn’t say that you, Matt, “lump in all Muslims with the 9-11 terrorists”. I’m saying that the outrage and magnification and bull-horn shouting about “any” Muslim building a mosque two blocks away from Ground-Zero, speaks volumes to the muslims in the world.
Of course we see it as insensitive. But must we? Must we take their efforts as unkind, or appallingly insensitive, because we see it to be insensitive? At this writing, I heard on Fox News where Daisy Khan is meeting with the 9-11 families and others involved with the building of the mosque. May we pray for a grace-filled understanding to prevail and permeate those meetings? Can we pray that eyes would be opened to a peacefilled conciliatory agreement? selahV
QUOTE my main concern is not the building of the mosque but the angry, hateful, rhetorical arguments END QUOTE
Agreed. It is always hard to separate your argument from your emotions — and I think everyone on both sides understands this is an emotional event like none most of us have experienced, at least since Pearl Harbor.
Unfortunately, you are incorrect when you say that some Muslims are not “kin” to 911 terrorists. I know it is hard to accept, but you CANNOT be a Muslim and even speak ill of the Koran — and especially not contrary to it. That is a “death penalty offense.” That’s why you don’t hear Muslims speak against the Koran’s war verses.
Muslims are in a different situation with the Koran than Christians are with the Bible. Debate about the Koran’s absolutely unchallengeable messge simply cannot happen within the Muslim context. I know from speaking with my moderate Muslim friend, they feel very divided — but she stays very silent about it.
This is a terrible dilemma for a whole race of people. We should speak strongly, but always season our speech with grace.
‘Religious’ tolerance?
The privileges of being classed as religion should be withdrawn from Islam.
If Hitler had claimed that ‘Mein Kampf’ was dictated by God, would we be forced to tolerate the Nazi Party as a religion? Islam is first and foremost a mind-destroying, totalitarian political ideology that spreads through the Body Politic like a virus.
Winston Churchill gave the correct diagnosis over a century ago, when he compared Islam to a contagious virus or meme – ‘as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog’ http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/islam-murder-meme-and-rabies-of.html
Consequently, Islam should be reclassified from ‘RELIGION’ to ‘PUBLIC MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM’ – a virulent contagious mental illness. It could then be contained by the methods used to prevent the spread of typhoid and other lethal epidemics: enforced exclusion and quarantine of carriers, eradication of foci of infection, immunization of the susceptible population etc.
Trencherbone, sadly there are far too many groups that are considered religions in the world. How many should we ban? Who decides which are banned? The Supreme Court? Congress? Perhaps we need another ammendment to the Constitution to define “religion”, just like we need to have other terms more succinctly defined–like marriage, citizen, etc.?
Interesting.
Well done SehahV. I agree. How big is ground zero? The proposed mosque is 2 blocks away. Would 3 blocks be ok? 5? I think the muslims behind the mosque are missing an opportunity to reach out to a suspicious city by voluntarily choosing another location, but they haven’t done it. I also think (many) Christians are missing an opportunity to voice their concerns in a reasonable fashion.
But red faced people waving fists and foaming at the mouth (either literally or figuratively) are doing no one any good. The idea that Christians want the state to use its power to abrogate a group’s lawful rights is troubling.
Let the world see that the United States lives up to its principles, even when it hurts.
Bill, thanks. I don’t know how close would be too close to Ground Zero. It is such a deep raw wound in the hearts of all New Yorkers. I can’t imagine how they deal with the cavern that is there as a result of the terrorists. But they are resilient and strong at heart. May God work even this controversy to the good for the glory of His precious Son–Jesus the Christ.
I don’t remember the details exactly, but I don’t remember Mcveigh acting in the name of Christianity unlike the other situation. (i could be forgetting something.) if so, that makes a fair amount of difference between the two situations.
We should love all, and getting red-faced is always a poor decision, and it is a “free country” so they can do what they want. To say there isn’t an element of intentional provocation by the developers though would be naive. We should recognize it for what it is, but still respond in love, knowing that many other Muslims are watching to see if we really are followers of Jesus or not.
Josh, the difference between the two incidents could have tons of flaws and inconsistencies, as we see them, but still remain the same in the eyes of Muslims–just as in our eyes the building of a Mosque two blocks from Ground Zero is insensitive, without compassion for the lost innocents and hurtful to the victims’ families and spitting in the face of all Americans. Communication is a very very long bridge to understanding.
I haven’t heard any Muslims advancing the Mcveigh argument. I just think if Mcveigh’s actions were done in the name of anti-government militia activism, then the appropriate metaphor would be building a militia headquarters across the street in OKC. I get the general sentiment but I’m a fact-checker by nature.
but I think more than anything we as Christians should respond in love as Christians and apply the law to others as we would to ourselves, which I believe is the point of your post.
Josh, how many have you talked to? (Just kidding) I had this on my mind, like I said in my post, and had the opportunity to ask someone whom I thought would understand Muslims far better than I, so we talked and like I said in the post, “to them” our argument would be like the McVeigh incident. If that is too far-fetched a comparison for some to entertain, then that’s okay by me. My most important point in weighing in on this subject was because I was seeing and hearing professing Christians who may be a bit too vitriolic with their outrage. And thereby, hurt opportunites for us to share Jesus. that’s all.
Thanks for responding. selahV
Well said, SehahV and Bill Mac. And “Trencherbone,” when you say, “If Hitler had claimed that ‘Mein Kampf’ was dictated by God, would we be forced to tolerate the Nazi Party as a religion?” please remember that if wishes were horses, all beggars would ride. Your characterization of Islam aside, illustrations loose their power if inaccurate or if you have to add to them to make your connection.
John
John, thanks. Didn’t expect this to be a slam-dunk and kudos to me kind of post. I’ve been mulling this around in my mind for several days now. I’ve jumped from bandwagon to bandwagon. Then I began to seek what the Lord would have me think and say in the matter. So…here we are. At odds as usual.
This is a stout discussion at http://www.baptistlife.com/forums faith and practice.
Lot of it was kicked off by Howell Scott’s blog, Scott who sometimes posts on this board, a CR pastor from New Mexico.
Al Mohler himself takes issue with Trencherbone and Newt Gingrich. It appears Mohler does not hold the Muslim faith in as low regard as Newt and Jerry Vines and Frank Graham.
Mohler and Frank make the Time Cover Story discussion response team this week.
I would hope that Trencherbone; if not him maybe Bill Mac will use this opportunity, Bill Mac and Louis, for close study of Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil. They want agree with all of it, but lot there for them to chew on, especially his chapter on Absolutists. And may Howell Scott will have the graciousness of spirit to show Robert Parham’s film in his church.
In all the discussion I do think there is a fair analogy. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are to the Muslim Faith what the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity; the Klan 4 million strong in America in 1920′s; and many of our grandfathers and other family not many generations back were members.
So good many of you are gonna trade epithets and condemnations here on this board. I hope some of you will broaden your perspective a little.
And do compare it to the link I have in the Setzer thread. In some ways it is fitting the discussion takes off here on the 30th Anniversary of SBC Prez Bailey Smith saying God doesn’t Hear the Prayer of a Jew.
SleahV:
I do hope you will get a copy of http://www.differentbookscommonword.com and begin the dialogue on this matter with your fellow Baptists.
It would be great example of your goodwill toward folks of the Muslim faith if you could have dialogue on this matter with fellow Baptists, including Denzel Washington, the son of a Baptist minister; Denzel has endorsed Parham’s effort.
I commend you for a fine blog. Much better than Ike Reighard’s former church member at New Hope in Fayetteville, Ga, Newt Gingrich.
thanks for the commendation. Think this writing is about as far as the Lord has led thus far in my forging better relations between Christians and Muslims. As you can see, I have a hard enough time communicating without irritating fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
I do plan to support Elam, though. It is a group who are taking the gospel to Iran and leading people to Jesus one by one. Just learned about it yesterday. selahV
Stephen: You’re killing me, you really are. Please stop telling us what everyone else thinks, or has written and tell us what you think. I don’t want the mosque to be built. I don’t have any regard for Islam. My regard is for the Constitution and my regard is for people to have the freedom to worship as they choose, within the constraints of the law. Even within a religion I believe to be false. My regard and concern is for Christians choosing the wrong fight and drawing lines in the sand in the wrong places.
What do YOU think? And why?
There are not many places where I disagree with Charles Kimball on these matters. That is not a dodge. He has examined all the underlying issues very well and 2002 at that.
I think the thinking of Bailey Smith and Criswell and Islamic fundamentalists are a matter of degree; all an aberration of the best of their faith.
Like SelahV I have some reservations about the timing of this Mosque, but likely the more outrageous aspect of this whole matter is how it was driven by a right wing blogger and then picked up most recently by Newt Gingrich.
I believe George W. Bush is a Christian. I am concerned about how Karl Rove shaped his conversion story for political reasons. I am more concerned about how Richard Land played the religion card; went to be politically with Karl Rove as described in Garry Wills in the Age of Rove, a vulgarization of the best of the Baptist Tradition, than I am concerned about progressive Muslims building a House of Worship.
I sat in a room with Martin Accad and the former president of Samford, Tom Corts about 5 years ago in Bham.
I think you have a lot to learn from both of these fine Baptists on the matter.
If you want to read Kimball, I would love to talk to your further about it. I cannot do the remedial reading for you.
At same time I do appreciate the civility with which you engage me here, as compared to the lack thereof of some other folks.
Charles Kimball and Bill Mac:
I think Bill Mac is right in his concern for the ill timing and impudence of folks who claim the name of Christ needlessly drawing line in the Sand and otherwise being a distraction.
At same time I think there is much for him to learn from Kimball
Here is a good introduction:
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9811&article=981110
A personal note as I know CB Scott among others place a lot on testimony.
I was in the Sanctuary of FBC Greenville SC in November of 2002 when Charles Kimball lectured there about his new book. He and current pastor Jeff Rogers were colleagues on the Furman religion faculty in the mid 80′s through good bit of the 90′s; a highwater mark for the Furman Religion Department.
Also in the room that night was the former Governor of SC, Dick Riley who became President Clinton’s SEc. Ed; Riley a great man.
And Baxter Wynn was there; brother of former chair of the SC GOP and Nephew of Ga. Gov Lester Maddox.
It was a grand evening, full of much hope for Baptist/Muslim relations.
Newt Gingrich isn’t helping much now. I wish you coulda been there that evening Bill Mac so we wouldn’t have to be doing all this remedial work now, though I do commend SelahV for much of his good thought here.
And Bill Mac,CB Scott andall; I must say I am concerned about this 30th Anniversary.
On behalf of the SBC will Al Mohler and Richard Land apologize for this if Bailey Can’t bring himself to?
It’s that old matter of degree I was talking about
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16564
It is interesting how our freedoms are protected.
Our government was designed in such a way that the government-guaranteed freedoms of each individual American, or of a minority group are protected from the ‘rule of the masses’.
So, from century to century, and decade to decade, there will arise situations that highlight this protection: times when the rights of a few are blatantly unpopular with the majority of Americans.
One example of the confrontation of the popular will of the majority clashing with the rights of a minority is the one where I failed the test:
I signed a petition to make it illegal for Westboro Baptist Church to protest within sight of the funeral of a combat soldier. My compassion for the family of that dead soldier over-rode my reasoning about how our system works:
in order to guard guaranteed freedom of speech, I must protect the freedom of those whose speech offends me to the heart. I must keep that freedom for the sake of that soldier who died protecting freedom of speech in our country . . . a freedom even for those Westboro folk.
Ours is a strange country: we really do believe in freedom here.
Our finest Americans: the young men and women in the military prove that everyday, by laying their lives on the line to defend that freedom. They are the best of WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.
The building of the mosque will be a witness to the world, in its own way: that the terrorists did not destroy WHO WE WERE AS A NATION on nine-eleven.
As far as Islamic terrorists AND American terrorists:
they will always work to destroy WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.
the twin towers and the Murrah Building fell, but WE have to remember who we are, for the sake of those who lost their lives, so that the terrorists don’t ever win.
I hope we can pass the test this time and allow the Mosque to be built.
QUOTE I hope we can pass the test this time and allow the Mosque to be built END QUOTE
Why is it un-American to oppose the mosque being built? Or, do you only apply free speech rights to minorities?
I personally do not see anything wrong with vociferously setting forth one’s opinion. That to me is “free speech.”
I feel the same thing about “abortion.” Just because it is legal, I don’t turn a blind eye and keeping working until the legal issue is line with the moral issue.
In a free country, even the majority should be free to express opinions.
Jerry, I agree. I would think if it wasn’t being called Cordoba House then it would take the sting out of the situation for “some” people…but certainly not all. selahV
I wonder of the Christian Community has tried to build a worship center at Ground Zero. A Christian-themed memorial to the victims.
I guess if we haven’t, then we may not have much to gripe about.
Bob, I’ve wondered the same thing. More so since this controversy has taken on a life of its own. selahV
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/nyregion/19church.html
SelahV,
I believe the comparison you draw needs more distinctions. If I had the time, I could probably list an extensive set of significant differences between the Mcveigh incident and 9-11, many of which would be rooted in the religious-cultural-sociological context of radical Islam, proportionalities pertaining to Christian terrorists and Muslim terrorists, hermeneutical consensuses in the Middle East Qu’ran interpretation vs. hermeneutical consensuses in contemporary Christian thought, etc.
If bitterness, unforgiveness, or excessive fear and paranoia is at the heart of Christians who decry this building project at the 9-11 site, then this is wrong. If, on the other hand, concern for the dignity of victims, a desire to set an example of social appropriateness, concerns for what “message” this might send to radical Islamists, etc., are the concerns of Christians, then disagreement between Christians on this issue seems more political than theological.
Bradley
Bradley, I agree with your last paragraph and feel this is what is being lost in the flaming of the rhetorical fires that are burning on talk-shows and editorials. Unfortunate comparisons are being made, and some not so hemeneutically convincing, I am sure.
I happened to have the opportunity to ask the opinion of Afshin Ziafat yesterday at church, and he shared the Timothy McVeigh comparison with me. I would guess, since he is a converted Iranian Muslim who fluently speaks Farsi, is an evangelist who shares his testimony around the world–would have a bit more insight into the comparison than I. And given the incredible manifestation of the Spirit of God in his messages yesterday, I’d say he has a handle on the various distinctions you might offer had you more time. It’s a certainty that I would be very limited in discussing them with you. But I’d sure give it a go. selahV
Personally, I don’t think the fact that a person speaks “Farsi” means that they have any special insight to Islam. They may, but I don’t think there is anything that necessitate such a connection.
There is nothing in the Christian faith (even allowing that McVeigh was a Christian which I sincerely doubt) that mandates conversion with the threat of death if necessary. That is a part of the Koran — the sole source for Muslim faith and practice. There are over 109 “war verses” in the Koran. The Koran is a “book of war.” War is an proselytizing tool of the Muslim faith.
You don’t have to speak “Farsi” to read and understand the Koran.
Any comparison between McVeigh and 911 is pure fiction.
“Any comparison between McVeigh and 911 is pure fiction.”
I can think of one comparison:
TERRORISM
SSBN, personally, I didn’t mean to imply it gave anything more special to understanding the Koran, than I suppose fluently speaking and reading Greek and Hebrew would be to understanding the Bible. That’s about where I was coming from.
Afshin Ziafat is a remarkable man of God who has led different siblings to Christ who have followed the Koran as their guidebook. His testimony is powerful–but only by the way the Spirit is using him to reach his countrymen and women in Iran to know what the truth of Jesus Christ being God and whom the Muslim world sees and respects as a prophet. I only added the part of him fluently speaking Farsi to help readers understand he was not just a fly-by-night person who did not understand the teachings of the 5 pillars of Islam. Sorry it did nothing to help you grasp what I was trying to say to Bradley who wants to discuss hermeneutics and distinctions I would dare say I could not begin to discuss. Hope this helps you SSBN. By the way, do you have a name? hariette petersen (a.k.a. selahV)
Kind of a stupid question so I’ll give a stupid answer: no I do not have a name.
Amazingly you managed to dance all around the issue that YOU raised. I don’t dispute anything you said about this being a wonderful Christian man reaching out to Muslims. One of my wife’s closest friends is a practicing Muslim, so I’m not fully unaware of Muslim people.
The fact is: you used this man to tie McVeigh and 911, which is a myth in any language, including Farsi. So, please don’t now act as if I didn’t “grasp” the meaning of your post (whatever the reason that prompted you to say it). Implying I’m not “smart enough” to grasp your posts does not change the fact that you seem to agree (by asserting an authority) there IS a connection between McVeigh and 911. Feel free to lay aside the ad hominem venom and simply state your case on the matter.
That might actually spark some conversation. I’m not making any personal judgments about you — just examining your posts.
SSBN, LOL. You’re right that was a rather stupid way for me to phrase that question. Sorry. Will you tell me your name, please?
I wasn’t trying to dance around anything. I was telling you what I said to Bradley and why. If you are offended, I am sorry I offended you. I was not “implying” anything about how “smart” you are. I don’t imply such stuff. It’s insulting.
Fact is: as you put it that it was my “post” that you were refering to. I wrote “to them” as in how the Muslims would view the protests of Christians and others to the building of a mosque at Ground Zero. “To them” is in my post. Perhaps you overlooked it. And I based this upon the conversation I had with a converted Muslim whom I felt might have a much better understanding of Muslims than I. Plain and simple.
I’m not making any personal judgments of you, either, just trying to reply to your comments. Grace be unto you and abound, selahV
Criswell’s speech to the SC legislature in 56 could be characterized as an act of Terror.
His Skunk Sermon in San Antonion was a declaration of War on Professors in Seminaries with whom he disagreed.
All a matter of degree.
See my link to Kimball in Comment 18; and begin thinking about Absolutists.
Absolutists are why your debate with the Koran doesn’t stack up as long as you are an apologist for the SBC.
Inerrancy as implemented in the SBC is an Absolutist Tool, Instrument.
That is why your arguments don’t stack up.
You cannot engage Kimball and make a prevailing argument.
Your SBC is woeful in these matters. Look at the Ministry of Doug Hudgins at FBC Jackson Mississippi in the 60′s.
Your “dissenting church” didn’t dissent much when it mattered and now you whitewash it all through rose colorred glasses; SSBN.
SelahV and Roger Williams and Parham’s Documentary are the better light, the New Testament Baptist witness for peace in a Plural Society; the Truett model of Separation of Church and State that you too artfully and cavalierly dismiss SSBN, and makes your Baptist credentials somewhat suspect in this matter.
As Stephen Fox has brought my name into this discussion, I will weigh in here. I have written several posts on my blog regarding the Ground Zero mosque and I have also tried to engage the folks at BaptistLife forums regarding this issue. This is not an issue of religious liberty or Baptist principles. This is first and foremost a political issue that has gotten national traction, thanks in large part to President Obama’s clumsy remarks and subsequent clarifications regarding the mosque.
First, from a legal and constitutional viewpoint, I believe that this Muslim group has every right to build the mosque on their property at the proposed location. I believe it would be a violation of their rights if the government were to use legal process (either through zoning or landmark status) to prevent the building of the mosque near Ground Zero. Both Richard Land and, to a greater extent, Newt Gingrich, have made comments in oppostion to the mosque that could be considered as violating conservative principles. Quite frankly, we should not condition our rights to religious freedom in this country based upon what a Middle East dictatorship like Saudi Arabia does with allowing churches and synagogues to be built in theirs (Gingrich’s argument).
Secondly, just because someone has a First Amendment right to say or do something (in this case build a religious facility) does not mean that any of us have to support, endorse, or condone the speech or activity. I have tried on BaptistLife to get anyone to admit if there is First Amendment speech or activity (i.e., pornography or the vile hate speech of Westboro “Baptist Church” for example) that was that was protected, but that they would personally not support, endorse, or condone. The response: crickets.
If the U.S. Supreme Court upholds Westboro’s “right” to protest at military funerals, does anyone likewise believe that Mayor Bloomberg, President Obama, or the other elites would for a New York minute support or endorse that right? If the proposed project was an SBC mega-church, do you think it would receive the same amount of support? Most people know the answers to those questions. I may recognize that Muslims have the right to build near Ground Zero, but the First Amendment does not require me to like it. God bless,
Howell, “I may recognize that Muslims have the right to build near Ground Zero, but the First Ammendment does not require me to like it.” I agree. Thanks for weighing in. Sadly, more and more of the interpretations of our Constitution are being so twisted that we will probably have to accept many things we do not like in order to hold on to the rights we have as citizens practicing Christianity. Thank God for the foresight of our Founders. selahV
This thread has zipped right along so I hope I have not missed the point I’m about to address. If someone has already brought it up, then I apologize for the repeat.
We as Americans should be mindful that the building of this mosque is in line with the teachings of Islam and the practice throughout the centuries to build mosques anywhere Muslims had military victories.
To believe this is just a “worship center” that just happens to be slated for construction at the nearest possible site to Ground Zero, is very foolish and naive. It is a statement by Islamic leaders who are anything but “moderate.”
As an American, I am troubled by the wholesale ignorance of people in regard to the Muslim faith. I have read, and do read the Koran and other works of Muslim clerics accessible in English. This is a statement by the Muslim world to the Muslim world and all the political correctness in the world does not change the facts.
Now, in regard to a “Christian” response. We should do everything in our power to give a strong witness to the Muslim community (the moderate Muslim community) that this mosque is a ploy consistent with the Muslim teaching of the Koran to convert infidels — even with the threat of death if necessary.
There is nothing wrong with Christians standing with those who are still in mourning. I also do not see anything in Scripture that prevents Christians from presenting a strong apologetic against the Muslim faith –as we should all false cults and religions.
As far as the “legal” issues, that is a different matter altogether. But, might (what is legal) does not make right (what is morally acceptable).
The History of the SBC, that SSBN supports, especially the Branch that produced Paul Pressler and Jesse Helms is not pretty.
I see where he has posted the disclaimer that the true branch of Christendom is superior to Muslim and that gives him an out with the darker side of the SBC that put the fundamentalist in power.
As pure as he makes it all seem, I don’t think he can wade through Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil and make the case for the SBC he otherwise wants to flourish in. Ronnie Floyd and Judge Pressler, I contend, will not allow an honest look at it.
The folks who are connected to the different books common word initiative have heard all the faux and small minded arguments SSBN is throwing up here, and found them wanting.
Any truth seekers on this board ought to explore them; find a way to hear what Martin Accad thinks about the matter.
The review of When Religion Becomes Evil link I have posted is a good introduction.
SSBN may be able to outwit me in the discussion here on this board, but his junk don’t fly, his Dawg won’t hunt.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html
Interesting take from a British Comedian
SSBN, I have not read the Koran. Would guess that many readers here have not either. I could be wrong.
You make a very interesting point with the reason Muslims might want to build a mosque where they’ve had victory. But there was no victory for the extremists here. They gained no land. They had no conquest. They do not possess the land; they have to purchase the coat factory in order to build. Is there a mosque going up in the fields of Pennsylvania? At the Pentagon? It would make more sense, to me, if that were so. Is there a new mosque going up at Ft. Hood, Texas? selahV
Maybe New York first, a field in Pennsylvania later, huh SelahV?
CB… I shudder. Come, Lord Jesus, Come. selahV
there is an interesting variety of comments on this topic here, also, and some mirror the views of many of the commentators on Selah’s post:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/comments/allreviews.html?id=89133
If anyone cares to do their history, you’ll find that Christianity has been the base excuse for many, as in an overwhelming majority, genocides, atrocities, and tragedies.
Many Confederate leaders fought to protect “their God-given right to slavery” and even had passages straight from the bible to defend their position. Heck, look at our own convention’s history.
Explorers claimed that God gave them the right to claim the lands of many indigenous people groups and even wholesale slaughtered groups which refused to convert to Christianity.
Crusades much?
How about the groups such as the KKK which steep much of their own history in bastardized interpretations of the bible?
We have a very narrow world view as to how much our religious beliefs have been the basis for people excusing themselves while killing or destroying others. When you take the long view, you find that Christianity has been responsible for many, many deaths alongside Islam being the reason for many other deaths.
If people want to build that mosque, let them. We ought to help the church down the street rebuild too.
Islamic radicals have killed people. Christian radicals have killed people. They just did it hundreds of years ago.
“Christian radicals have killed people. They just did it hundreds of years ago.”
We may not have too long to wait for a ‘revival’ of this, BILL.
‘Christian’ militia are on the upswing in this country.
Example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/us/30militia.html
Christiane, no Christian radicals ever killed people for the purpose of converting them to the faith — that’s what the Koran teaches, as thorny an issue as that might be for them. And, for my Muslim friends who are moderate, Arab-born people, the war verses (usually counted as about 109) are a problem.
If you are talking about the Inquisition or the Crusades, both of these were aberrations of the Christian faith that were NOT supported by the “dissenting church” (which I consider the forebears of the True Church).
If you want to indict the “Catholic” church for all kinds of human rights abuses in the Middle Ages (if that’s the period of which you speak), I will agree with you.
Somehow, I don’t think that was the intent of your post.
I don’t think that the terrorists killed those people in the towers ‘to convert them’.
They were terrorists. NOT people of faith.
‘Christian’ militia terrorists are not Christians.
TERRORISM is the enemy.
It corrupts and hijacks where it is allowed to corrupt and hijack. Christian people of faith are NOT immune,
but they cannot serve two masters, and in order to embrace the one, they must first utterly abandon the Other.
Christiane, they did not kill them to convert them, they killed them to “subject” them. Obviously, you have not read the Koran.
I’ll correct you, “Terrorists are our enemy.” We can never win a war on “terrorism” (Bush’s folly). We can only fight terrorists.
And keep in mind: all Muslims are not 911 terrorists, but all 911 terrorists were Muslim. The truth is sometimes painful to admit (especially in our screwed-up, politically correct world) but it is the ONLY way we will ever have any hope of goodness overcome evil. We must start with the truth.
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.
The early, violent incarnation of the KKK quoted scripture in their meetings and their rampages.
Confederate and Southern Leaders quoted scripture to defend slavery.
Bill, how do you know McVeigh was a Christian? What in his life gives any indication of this fact you assert?
Then, in what way was McVeigh following anything that the Christian church teaches from the Bible when he insanely murdered innocent people.
Perhaps, in your mind he was a Christian. I must admit I do not possess the power to know such a fact.
Just as a matter of contrast, I do not know if Mother Teresa was a Christian. However, I do know that she lived and acted in a way that suggests she was — even though I may argue with her some day on points of doctrine.
Bill, I don’t mean to offend you, but I don’t think you can credibly make a connection between McVeigh and 911 on the basis of religion.
You have a tiny problem, Christiane. The Quran teaches this ‘terrorism’ toward infidels. Christians have no biblical excuse for their terrorism in history from the New Covenant scriptures.
The good news is that most Muslims do not know the Quran.
They were devout Muslims. Islam is a nationalistic religion.
The Christ of the gospel was not the christ of the Crusades.
And in all due respect I would contend the Christ of the Gospel is not the Christ of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Covention.
What you have with fundamentalism in the SBC and fundamentalism in the Moslem community is a matter of Degree and I am not alone in asserting as much.
Read Charles Kimball–I have anintroductory link about comment 16–Read Kimball on Absolutes, which is what Inerrancy boils down to.
Pressler’s definition of Cooperation is I’ll operate and you Cope=Ayatollah Pressler SBC
QUOTE If anyone cares to do their history, you’ll find that Christianity has been the base excuse for many, as in an overwhelming majority, genocides, atrocities, and tragedies. END QUOTE
Bill, first let me say I appreciate your passion on this issue. I don’t mean to make any personal attack against you as a person or a brother in Christ.
However, I have studied history, and your history is wrong. First, the Crusades were NOT sanctioned by the True Church (confessing church, dissenting church) and not even fully supported by all the bishops at the time.
Also, just as matter of history: the Crusades were prompted by Muslim aggression.
Second, your post is an apologetic for the Muslim faith implying they are at least as peace-loving as Christians, and no more warring than the same. Two facts of history: one, I’ve stated before–the Koran justifies violence if necessary to subject (meaning of Islam) infidels to the “faith.” There is nothing like this in the Bible. Another fact that mitgates against your apologetic of Islam is simple mathematics. The number of lives taken in the advance of Islam compared to those lost in the Crusades (and I’m not justifying either group) shows without question that Islam wins that number game.
Again, I’m not condoning violence by any group and I’m not attacking you personally. But, your raised the issue of “history,” and I suspect that you are not a professional historian (I’m not slamming you for this). My Master’s degree is in research and I must confess that before I did the research, I was ignornant about the Crusades also.
In closing, I would say that I don’t equate the Catholic church with the True Church, so I don’t accept any responsibility as a believer for the non-Christian acts perpetrated by the Catholic Church. For me, Catholic does NOT equal Christian, even though some true believers might be Catholics.
PS–For the record, I also do not believe that the SBC equals Christianity.
Let’s hope not.
So all those people using Christianity as their basis for their actions over in the holy land mean nothing?
Whether or not the “True Church” sanctioned the Crusades or not, the fact is that hundred and thousands of people claimed God was on their side as they cut a swathe through the holy land.
Military History is my minor from college. It’s nice reading diaries of Generals who felt God was on their side…
…of both sides of the Civil War.
The fact remains that people claim Christianity when they commit unspeakable acts onto another person or people group.
I still point to the KKK and other supremacist groups which claim God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in their actions and their group’s history, founding, and mission. One group which I researched claim their mission is to purify the world for the true race which God has ordained (and it ain’t the Jews).
Bill, you keep missing the point of the major difference between Muslim acts of aggression and the Crusades. Muslim acts of aggression are taught and encouraged by their holy book. The Crusades were in no way encouraged by God’s Holy Book, the Bible.
You keep comparing apples and oranges.
When a Muslim “claims” to be killing in the Name of Allah, they base it upon the common reading of the Koran. When a KKK member claims to kill in the name of Christ, that person has NO BASIS to make such a claim and is showing himself or herself to NOT be acting in the name of Christ.
There is a big difference. Read the Koran from front to back. Don’t take my word for it, take Mohammed’s.
I’m comparing dead people to dead people. Pretty simple. I’ve not even suggested that the bible supports it or not, I’m saying that these people/groups are using Christianity and/or scripture/passages to support their actions.
Whether or not you think it’s in there or not, these groups are claiming scripture to justify their actions. In the late 1800′s, that was killing/terrorizing blacks in the South while claiming that they were “doing the Lord’s work” in their land.
By the way, isn’t one of the reason the SBC was even formed was because slaver owners also wanted to be missionaries?
Well, Bill, I guess I’ll just drop the issue with you. You don’t care what the facts are. All you care about is dragging up issues in the long gone South (of which neither I nor my forebears were a part of) and slinging mud.
I prefer a conversation to a campaign, good-bye.
You do realize that these supremacist groups are very much alive and well today, now. Most are either deep south or in the midwest. There are also just as many militant black supremacist groups active in the US today as well.
You are arguing that the bible doesn’t condone violence against another group. You’re right, I thought I made that concession clear.
I’m stating that many of these groups active today and groups from long ago with their actions, claim Christianity and scripture to justify their stances and their actions. It’s not hard to prove that I’m right here.
I’m arguing the person and group with their actions. You’re arguing that the source material doesn’t actually support their claims. I’m right AND you’re right.
You and I are arguing two different things here. I’m right where I’m making my point, you’re right where you’re making your point. We’re talking right past each other and it’s probably best you and I walk away from it.
Bill,
The largest concentration of Klansmen in the history of the US was in a northern state.
West Virginia wasn’t it?
You’re right, but they were formed and made their fame in the states of Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. You can throw in a few events in West Virginia, Kentucky, and Georgia, but when a person thinks about the KKK, it’s West Virginia and the south.
My inclusion of the midwest is because I’m referencing primary research of a professor that I’ve done work for here in Louisiana who has done all of his research on white supremacist groups and the largest concentrations of these types of groups are in the deep south and midwest as of 2008.
Indiana.
West Virginia is a Southern State? They still talk funny.
Illinois also has a large proportion of white supremacist groups in the country.
Illinois also boasts one of the largest black supremacist groups (they do exist) in the country as well.
REad Leviticus and then consider the ideology of the man to whom Judge Pressler said on the Fireside Chat:
“And then we had a Resolutions committee that was conservative for the first time and that just infuriated the Liberals”
SSBN, you sound like a believer in the Body of Christ
and the Spirit-formed communion of all Christians within its great diversity, a bond formed strictly by one thing:
their centering completely in Christ the Lord.
Christiane, I am. I will heartily attest that I know many practicing Catholics that I feel (I cannot know) are true believers.
Saying that, I absolutely reject the teachings of the Catholic Church, especially after the late third and fourth centuries. To be quite honest I could never accept the elevation of Mary and all the additional doctrines the Catholic Church has added in regard to her alone — including the presently debated matter of Co-Redemptrix.
If you are a Catholic, and a believer, which it appears is how you describe yourself, then I would strongly suggest you find another faith community within which to express your love for Jesus Christ.
I don’t like to think of myself as an enemy of the Catholic church, but I am certainly not a fan. In regard to Catholic people — well, that’s a whole different ball of wax (not candle wax)
Thank you for your response. As far as I know, the concept co-redemptrix has never been accepted as ‘dogma’ by the Vatican, although it has been much discussed since the time of Irenaeus, in various ways. And yes, some Catholics DO tend to go over the top in their Marian devotions, but never to the point where Christ is replaced. The one thing we know for sure is this: there was never a moment when Mary did not point towards Our Lord, and even today among Catholics, we still hear her voice come down to us in Holy Scripture: ‘Do as He tells you’.
For me, the beauty of a Catholic or Anglican or Orthodox Marian devotion is that it is centered always completely on Our Lord.
She pointed to Him.
For us, she still points always to Him.
So very much, and with so much love.
There is an icon that shows a pregnant Mary embracing and comforting a weeping Eve. If you can picture that, then you may have some insight into the way we see her.
Christiane,
I can appreciate your respect for Mary. I’m not sure most Catholics (at least most I know and many of my friends growing up were Catholic) look at the faith the same way you do. But, Mary is only one extra-Biblical doctrine among many down through the years.
Personally, I’d never be comfortable with the man-centered (Pope) religion of Romanism. Then again, I’m against ALL organized religion.
I prefer the disorganized ways of the Baptists
PS — As a matter of artistic expression I can appreciate the beauty of the image of Mary and Eve.
Hi SSBN,
Thanks for responding. I can share with you a comment that I made on Paul Burleson’s post about ‘Who Is The Leader Of Your Church’, which might give insight into our perspective on ‘the servant of the servants of God’ which is title we give the Pope:
“For a long time I thought how could it be that a seminary president could fire a Hebrew professor who had a husband with severe medical problems.
I remember thinking that the ‘excuse’ given was a strange one: ‘because she is a woman’.
So she was ‘let go’ and great hardship followed her and her family for a while (now things are better, I am told).
I think what jarred me so thoroughly was that one man could raise the ‘doctrine’ of patriarchy totally above Christ’s Law of Love. That one man used his position as a leader to ignore Lord Christ’s Great Commandment. And he got away with it. At least in the temporal sense: he is still an icon for many who can discern nothing wrong in what he did.
So I look at the title of this post and it reminds me that people can idolize ‘authority’, even when that authority violates the principle that no harm may be done that good may come.
Leadership.
We can’t follow two masters . . .
Best to follow the leader that points always towards the Lord, and in His Name, obeys the laws of loving-kindness towards his fellowman.
The great Christian leaders will be, above all, the servants of Lord Christ. And a leader of these leaders will, at all times, be ‘a servant of the servants of God’. There is no other pattern within the Body of Christ than that. “
To Christiane’s Strong post I would accentuate with Three examples, Most likely the Greatest Christians of the Twentieth Century.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Oscar Romer
L’s,
You are always predictable.
I knew it would only be a matter of time before you would link Paige Patterson to Islamic terrorists. You are just pitiful in your hatred of conservative, biblically sound Christians aren’t you L’s?
CB,
Old son, haven’t you figgered it out yet? EVERYTHING is Paige Patterson’s fault. The Great Recession? Yep. 9-11? That was him. In fact, the Greek word translated “root” in I Timothy 6:10 is the word “paigeouspattersoni”.
At least that’s the word on the street in Enid, OK.
Joe,
I think you made a mistake. The Recession was Richard Land’s fault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQdZgojOFI
Fitna by Geert Wilders. Worth watching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXje9fJsBc&feature=related
What some Muslims are taught at a very young age
What some Southern Baptists were taught at a very young age
http://jsr.fsu.edu/Volume10/Freeman.pdf
Just 50 years ago.
And that preaching morphed Inerrancy which morphed into The Takeover which begat Matt and SSBN and Rove and Landand here we are today.
Thank God for the CR and anyone who was hurt in the CR can just, as the Eagles sang a few years ago, “Get Over It”.
Hey Joe, The Adults are trying to have a discussion here. Go back to your Room until it is over and see if you have learned anything new and maybe try the next one.
While in your room you may want to read the link comment 19 about Absolutists and hold up a mirror and see if you see yourself in there.
Hey Steven
Can a person go to heaven without professing faith in Jesus Christ and repenting from sin?
Hey Joe, asI’ve said before I think you are making it very difficult for people in your family and your church to go to Heaven. You may be more of a distraction than a Help.
I’m glad you apparently are not a drunk, pay your taxxes and most likely don’t commit adultery.
But there is alot more to the Gospel and being a Baptist than that.
I hope maybe your wife or one of your children will read a Great ChristianBaptist Scholar, be a subversive or sorts; Read Kimball on the Absolutists and say Daddy: Is this you???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQOCcx5V9RI&feature=related
Geert Wilders Warning to America.
Hariette,
You’ve written a very thought provoking post.
Religious liberty is a tough concept that cuts both ways. If we are to have perfect freedom to practice our faith, it also means those we strongly disagree with have the freedom to practice theirs. As a conservative Baptist Christian, my prayer and belief is that our evangelism, and truth, will win in the marketplace of free ideas.
I’ve never liked it when atheist groups and others fight the building or expansion of a Baptist church and use every obscure law on the books against them. Even if the church wins, it has cost them in time, money and legal fees. But to be consistent, I would have to then say those of other faiths have the right to build as well.
I’ve heard there are already a number of mosques in New York, some already pretty close to ground zero. There is one close to where I live too. Let them build, but if it ever instigates terrorism, confiscate the property and sell it with the proceeds going to the fight against terrorism. Another way to look at this, building a mosque near ground zero may just hurt the public perception of Islam more than it helps it.
My Baptist association office is next door to the Latter Day Saints. One of the Baptist churches in our association is next door to a Catholic church. No problem in either case. Isn’t that a great testimony to religious freedom in America? One of our Baptist Distinctives has been religious liberty.
If the mosque is built, however, we should point out loud and long the number of mosques allowed to be built in America, as opposed to the number of churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim dominated countries. Anybody know where the First Baptist Church, Mecca, Saudi Arabia is located? Why can’t we build one there? It should also be pointed out that here Muslims are free to openly practice their religion and openly invite others to convert to their faith. Things not allowed us in Muslim dominated countries.
David R. Brumbelow
David, thanks for your usual wisdom in this volatile subject. You know I thought long and hard about whether or not to write it. Not my kind of writing by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree wholeheartedly that we should sieze their property should they use it to support terrorists in any way, just as we sieze property of those who deal in drugs. We are a nation of laws.
I understand and totally empathize with your feelings on Christian churches in Saudi Arabia, however the distinction, as much as I hate to say it is, they do not have our constitution. And if we are going to follow that train of thought–if we let you do this, then you should let us do that, then we’d be expected to adhere to their laws as in Sharia law. They cannot, as I understand it, practice their perversion of law without being held accountable to our laws. They are subject to our laws. We are not subject to theirs no matter how many mosques they build. That is, until they have voted in enough muslim or sympathetic legislators to amend our constitution to their ideologies and theologies. Right? selahV
I am in complete agreement with this post. Great thoughts in the midst of a lot of hyped up emotion. And, as comments go, Christiane makes more sense than anyone here (IMHO). Thanks for the voice of reason, Christiane!
Hello R.D.
Not sure how ‘reasonable’ I am. I ‘know’ what I believe to be the right and just thing to do, but my heart breaks for those family members of 9/11 victims who oppose the building of this mosque.
I just know that if we as American deny the freedom to build that mosque, somehow the terrorists would have won a victory after all.
We are Americans here. That is a blessing and a very heavy responsibility. We must do what is right and just.
So ‘giving in to our pain’ never was a choice for us.
We just can’t afford to take the low road on this one.
It seems plain to me that the muslims intending to build near ground zero are doing so with the intention of mocking us as a nation. This will be a training center for future terrorists.
They are at war with this country and we don’t see it. It is not a victory for us when we let our enemy in our midst. Instead, letting them do this is showing the world (or at least the muslim world) that Americans are weak and have no stomach for battle.
I encourage everyone to read Douglas Wilson‘s recent post on this subject. He made some very insightful remarks.
Stan: What is your solution then? It seems, by your remarks, that you don’t see the mosque as a problem so much as having Muslims in America.
Good point Bill Mac. I do hope you will get the Common Word Documentary and show it to your people and have a good discussion with Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil as a Resource Guide.
Muslims are at war with us. I hope we are ready for whatever is ahead.
As to my solution, I haven’t settled on anything as of yet. I keep vacillating between a few alternatives. Placating is not an option, however.
Stan, America as a nation has fallen so far adrift in principle, in its foundational beliefs. And much of what Wilson writes rings well the truth of our falling away–especially from the faith on which we were founded–Christian.
Douglas Wilson powerfully writes: “…the Muslims know what they are doing. What is that exactly? They are exposing the intellectual, theological, and ethical bankruptcy of secularism, and they are doing it on purpose.”
Wilson sums up his post with: “Someone really does need to tell secularist America that her gods are genuinely pathetic. And currently, the Muslims are doing this because the Christians won’t. And the Christians who won’t do this are not so much in need of a different kind of theology as they are in need of a different kind of spine.”
The “spine” we need to grow will come from the bold witnessing of Jesus Christ our Lord. Instead, we banter back and forth over who has the better comparisons with one another’s comparisons. May we each pray for God to give us someone to share Jesus with today and every day. We who are called by His name, need to humble ourselves, pray, seek God’s face, turn from our wicked ways and the idolization of wealth, comfort and self-satisfaction. We need to seek those things which are above and “follow Christ” instead of our own ways. What keeps us from doing so?
Thanks for the link. selahV
Thanks for your encouragement.
Stan:
Al Mohler for one doesn’t see it that way as I read him in Time Magazine. And I doubt Frank Page and the head of the IMB see it that way. If he does, the IMB man he should let us Know.
We are not at war with the Muslims, not unless Newt Gingrich and Frank Graham make it so.
We are at war with Al Qaeda just like progressive Baptists were at War, a spiritual War with the KKK and Texas Regulars mentality in the 60′s; that is with the exception of Texas Regulars and Criswell who were instigators, provocateurs and complicitors.
See Comment 19 about fundamentalist absolutists, many of whom are on this board. They are the problem
Christiane, SelahV and others like them are not. Bill Mac appears to be on a learning curve and I applaud him for it.
Stephen, You are correct. Mine is a minority opinion.
I could be wrong, and hope that I am, but it seems to me that a lot of Americans have their heads in the sand on this one. That includes Al Mohler, et al.
I greatly admire and respect Al Mohler by the way.
Tomorrow, or maybe in an hour or so, I will change my mind again to not caring about the future of the United States at all and only concern myself with the Kingdom of God.
Pray for me.
Stan, we can be a minority of at least two!
My forces have doubled in one minute. If we can keep this rate of growth up for the next…
QUOTE We are not at war with the Muslims, END QUOTE
Absolutely this is NOT what the Koran teaches. The Koran teaches every Muslim is obligated to spread the faith — using force as necessary.
I do agree: the war did not start after 911. It started in the 7th century.
One example:
In Sura 9 (At-Tauba) verse 5, the Koran* states: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)…
* An English Translation of The Holy Qur’an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
All the more reason to share the gospel and show them their faith is deeply flawed. Jesus is alive. He suffered, He died, He rose again. He came to do those things that all who believe in Him might have everlasting life. We are no better than another human being–Christ died to provide us His righteousness. He died to give us that righteousness when we call on Him in faith that His blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. How great a message we have to share with the Muslim world–the entire world.
My prayer is that we Christians will begin to lift one another up in prayer to have the boldness of Paul, the courage of David, the faith of the saints, and the love of Christ. selahV
Stan, I’ll pray for you. May God grant you the wisdom to discern His perfect will for your life and how you should spend it in service to our Lord Jesus Christ. May your love for Christ grow stronger and deeper with each breath you take. May we all concern ourselves with the Kingdom of God and lay all else on the altar and let God provide the sacrifice He seeks as we follow Him in completer obedience.
May grace abound for you and yours. selahV
“They were devout Muslims. Islam is a nationalistic religion. ”
CB, I would argue that Islam is not a religion but an ideology. They cannot practice their religion in totality in a pluralistic society. We see this by the banning of any criticism of Islam in Netherlands. We see this by their assassinations of those who dare to critisize Islam. We see this by the Sharia law courts in Britian and the Netherlands. The demand to practise their religion in totality means gutting our Constitution for a few.
It is really no different than making concessions in the law for Nazi’s to practice their brand of “justice”. Islam is a fascist ideology that is disguised as a ‘religion’.
What continues to bother me is the American left. What are they thinking when they see the oppression and even murder of women in Islam?
There is no such thing as “moderate Islam”. However, there are moderate Muslims because they do not follow Quran, thankfully. Let us hope that they will continue to not know the Quran.
It is interesting to hear the testimonies of those who escaped Islam such as this woman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLmkHMBsls4&feature=related
Ayaan Hirsi Ali escaped Islam and became a member of Parliament in the Netherlands. She wrote the script for Submission for which Theo van Gogh was assassinated by Muslims. She now lives in the US. She claims we are not fighting a war on terror but we are fighting Islam.
The Muslim mindset will view the prayer center being built a few hundred yards from ground zero as a huge win. Does that matter? What emboldened Hitler? What emboldens any bully?
Matt:
Look at Criswell in the 50′s. Look at the Council for National Policy and Schlafly’s Eagle Forum and the Birch Society.
Your Southern Baptist history and we’re not talking ancient, just 50 years ago was as bad or worse as what you are condemning in your perception of Muslim faith.
Ali Hirsi has some strong words for all of us.
At the same time Robert Parham has a documentary with Muslims who are searching for a better way.
It would hard for me to be convinced that you know more about Muslims than Martin Accad at the Baptist Seminary at Lebanon.
What this board can do is help fundamentalist Baptists who are as ABsolute as fundamentalist Muslims see the error of their way. Educate folks, Read Kimball on Absolutists.
Let’s get a response from the head of the IMB to see if his estimation of the IMB is the same as yours.
And God Help the SBC if it is.
“At the same time Robert Parham has a documentary with Muslims who are searching for a better way.”
Stephen, I have no idea how my comment has anything to with Criswell or Schafly? I was not aware that my comment was supporting either of them or anything that happened in American history that was not of Christ by Christians?
I thought the topic was Islam and the prayer center. I am really not interested in a contest on who is worse: Muslims or Criswell.
As to ‘searching for a better way’, that would mean ditching the Quran which teaches the very things we have witnessed.
Interesting post.
Stephen, I don’t think you are a stupid man, but sometimes it appears you do a pretty good impression of one
QUOTE What this board can do is help fundamentalist Baptists who are as ABsolute as fundamentalist Muslims END QUOTE
All you have to do is casually read the Koran and you could never, as a truly honest person, make the statement you make above. It is just foolhardy — in my opinion — to not make the connection between 911 and the Koran.
Muslims committing acts of terrorism (cowardly, cold blooded murder) are doing nothing inconsistent with the Koran.
Definitely a difference between said fundamentalists.
Look SSBN, You are too smart to wallow in ignorance or get in a urinating contest with me.
Lot of folks much more sophisticated on these matters have worked through stuff we could spend four years spittin at each other about here in this hogwallop of a conversation.
Why not consider engaging Accad and Charles Kimball on this matter. Get Parham’s DVD. What are you afraid of. Are you afraid the Holy spirit and your intelligence will guide you to a place where Ronnie Floyd and others like him will make your career path in the SBC very difficult?
Is that what you are afraid of?
Absolutiest have no boundaries across fundamentalisms.
Check Kimball for starters on that point.
And by all means let’s see if there is a consensus at the IMB about this matter.
And listen, you know in your gut there are ways to read The Bible and come to the same conclusions you come to about the Koran.
Secularists do it for Sport everyday, so why don’t you do something a little wiser and Christian instead of taunting somebody into that dungheap of a discussion.
QUOTE And listen, you know in your gut there are ways to read The Bible and come to the same conclusions you come to about the Koran. END QUOTE
Stephen, here is where your moderate, errant view of the Bible differs from my conservative, inerrant view. You cannot equate the imprecatory passages of the Old Testament the same way you interpret the 109 or so war versus of the Koran.
I do agree there are passages in the Old Testament that are troublesome, but they are a part of the story, not the main plot of the story — as in the Koran. It does not take an expert to understand the difference. It just takes a little reading and a little thinking.
So I disagree, what you say I know in my “gut,” is not what I have come to know through my mind. I’m sorry you consider my views “taunting.”
Once again, I’ve stepped in “it” assuming it would be possible to actually have a discussion with you. I definitely am not “taunting” anybody.
What emboldened Criswell and Pressler and Jesse Helms.
Kimball has a strong suggestion it is ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY like that of many on this board in INERRANCY that gets people ralleying around something other than Jesus.
Absolute Certainty cuts across all kinds of traditions and causes.
In The SBC it has become something like the Sharia of fundamentalist baptist life.
Stephen, I think a major differences between the comparisons you keep making toward Criswell is that any errors in what he “thought” and believed and preached about social issues, is worlds apart from what the Islamic extremists believed as they screamed Allah and flew those planes into the Twin Towers. One major distinction, for all the fault you may uncover and magnify of Criswell in a few sermons of the thousands he preached, he believed that Jesus Christ was His Redeemer and Jesus Christ was his righteousness, and in Him is all truth. The extremists believed their acts of terror were their righteousness and when weighed on a scale, they counted their acts as good works.
As Christians we all try to live our lives as Christ would want us to live. But we know our righteousness is not good enough for God. Ever. That is why our Savior, Jesus Christ, came to suffer, die and rise again to conquer death and the grave–to pay the penalty for our sins. We cannot pay the penalty for our sins by doing any amount of good in this world. Muslims believe they can do “what they believe is good” and if their good outweighs the bad, then they get into heaven.
Yes, I believe there are many Baptists who think that way too. Which is why we must continue to grow in Christ and preach the inerrant absolute Word of God. selahV
I was gonna ask if you were an inerrantist, and you pretty much answered my question in the last paragraph.
Is there a chance you may be open to reading Charles Kimball’s Book When Religion Becomes Evil?
He is an ordained Baptist minister. I would be particularly interested to see what you do with his sections of Absolute Certainty.
Hoping everything does not get lost in translation.
I do appreciate the relative grace with which you approached the subject of the Mosque in your original blog here that set off the discussion at ths site; it’s own Ground Zero of sorts.
Oh, at some point Hope you come across Chandler Davidson’s 100 pages on Criswell in Race and Class in Texas Politics; bur for right now hoping you can find a way to take a look at Kimball on Absolute Certainty.
Of course she’s an inerrantist…she’s a Christian.
Ed Setzer is tweeting the IMB at this moment.
Let’s contact the IMB and get a definitive statement to see how they square with Matt and SSBN on this matter.
http://www.imb.org/main/page.asp?StoryID=4485&LanguageID=1709
Stephen, just to let you know that nothing the IMB says has any bearing on what I believe or what I say.
They don’t represent me, and I don’t represent them. And for you to link my name with Matt — that really offends me
I have a reputation to think about.
Bart Barber has a great post on this topic as well. Of course, Bart is so much better at articulating than I. Click HERE. selahV
SelahV,
Maybe we should give Ole Bart a good water-boardin’ and straighten him out. I wouldn’t do that to you ’cause you are a lady.
CB, that’s mighty nice of you. I’m a real wimp. I’d be changing my ways and crying uncle before you even tied me down. Glad I’m still your friend. selahV
SelahV,
In reality it is impossible to state what is the “Christian perspective” on this issue, because it does not really have anything to do with our faith directly.
This is more of a socio-political issue to me. I don’t like the fact that a Mosque would be built at Ground Zero. To me it really has nothing to do with witnessing to Muslims. The Great Commission already mandates me to do that.
The issue to me is the lack of sensitivity toward the fallen, the families of the fallen and those fighting a war as a resultant action on behalf of the fallen. Our nation was attacked there by Islamic terrorists. It is just an insensitive act in my opinion. I consider it to be wrong as an American, I guess. And I for one still don’t think it is a bad thing to be an American. And I certainly do not apologize for being one.
To me it is not different than if the Japanese erected a monument to the “Sun God” or Emperor Hirohito at Pearl Harbor. Or if Mexico put a statute of Santa Anna in front of the Alamo. I just would not like it. I would simply be against it and it has nothing to do with the need to share the gospel with Muslims.
There were a lot of bumper stickers in San Antonio in 88 that Said Remember the Alamo. One of them was on my Dad’s Car.
So I guess there was a sense in which Randall Lolley when he Resolution 5 was upset that SBC Takeover Fundamentalists Terrorists had attaced SEBTS. I imagine James Deloach and CB Scott know something about that.
So I don’t know how I would play that out here except to say Imam Rauf has a leg up on James Deloach cause Rauf for one is not a fundamentalist in his religion like Deloach and Scott; and Rauf isn’t having Mullahs come to Cordova Mosque and Preach “Skunk” sermons to 10’000 raging fundamentalist preachers who are ready to do some purging of all his fellow believers who don’t believe in a Sharia like version of the first 11 chapters of Genesis like Mullah Pressler told Jack Flanders about it.
Now this analogy breaks down in places, but I think Charles Kimball when he talks about Absolutists does have something to say to James Deloach and Pressler and Helms and I wish CB Scott would explore him on the matter and see what he could learn; And Hariette as well.
Hariette, have you had the chance to explore Kimball on these matters.
In conclusion, since CB raised the Alamo; Randall Lolley was there. I saw it with my own eyes.
Steve,
I was there in ’88. I was actually close enough to hear the Park Rangers tell Randall Lolley that it was illegal for him to assemble a group at the Alamo. It truly was a sight indeed.
Yet, what does that event in the life of Randall Lolley and the SBC have to do a Mosque at Ground Zero?
But just think Steve, you and I may have been standing next to each other on the hot day in June of ’88. Who could have known then that we would be such pals today?
I think Jimmy Allen once said that when Carter sent him to Iran on an occasion, he met a radical there that a few years earlier he had met in the states and gotten to know well. I forget the outcome of the story, but in remembering their earlier contact they had a foundation to see the current matter from a different framework.
Of course there were folks in the room in Nashville during the Peace Committee talks that had all kinds of earlier engagement and they were not able to reconcile, so I guess fundamentalisms has its different stories.
Clark Pinnock had a different pilgrimage from his Disciples Vines and Rogers, and Richard Marious and Joe Barnhart had their Pilgrimage as well.
It is interesting we were there within sight of each other in San Antonio. In an amped up screenplay could be a memorable scene.
Whatever else obtains, I do hope you can wade into Cormac McCarthy’s Suttree this fall. Somewhere about the 21st Day of October is a good time to start. Mark that on your calendar.
Or if Jesse Helms after his record on Civil Rights, his folks put James Deloach on the Board of Trustees at SEBTS and Deloach became the Vice President. That would be an example for CB Scott as he continues in Absolute Certainty upholds his own version of Sharia Law: INERRANCY.
CB…I do not like it either. I think that perspective keeps getting lost in my post. I agonize over this. And it hurts deeply to think of what this is doing to our fellow Americans.
I gotta run. I just realized I’m late for an appointment. But I’ll be back. I need to finish what I’m thinking here, my friend. selahV
Okay, CB, I’m back. What can be done about all the misuses of the Constitution when it comes to common sense? What can be done other than workers who are now protesting to even work on the building?
I do not think unkindly AT ALL of those who disagree with the building of the mosque. My thoughts are those which drag at my soul because sometimes our Constitution (or the interpreters of it), seem to go against common sense of right. I don’t agree with flag-burnings, taking prayer out or schools, and eliminating the Ten Commandments from government owned buildings either. I wish all schools would no longer be public, but private and then we could put what we want in them, and give out all the Bibles we pleased to people. I think some things that are sanctioned today by the constitution are what extremists use to destroy American values and principles. But the roars are not debate or disagreement anymore, they are getting worse and worse. It’s a scary thing to realize that our nation’s capital has nearly a half million muslims living in and around it when such anger is being fueled in our country. Don’t you think? selahV
SelahV,
In all seriousness, I think that the United States is headed for Hell in a runaway wagon pulled by many evil horses and the only hope we have is the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ.
I pretty much agree with Howell. And here is what I would like to see the Muslims who wanted to build this Islamic Center say, although I don’t believe it lines up with Islamic teaching.
As American Muslims we have Constitutional religious freedom to build a Mosque or Islamic Center near Ground Zero. As much as we desire to build we more desire to show the world that we love and respect our fellow Americans. In order to show respect to other Americans and to show radical Islam that this is about living peacefully with people of other faiths we will not build the center so close to Ground Zero. We want to show the world that we understand the sensitivities involved in this issue and will do so by agreeing to a compromise.
Also, here is an article by Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, two Muslims who are on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress, entitled Mischief in Manhattan: We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation. This article shows that there are atleast some vocal Muslims who get it.
Mark, I would like to see the Muslim leaders who seek to build this mosque say those things too. I’d be happy if the Muslim community at large would stand up and say that. I will not hold my breath, but I do wish they would.
It’s terribly late, but I look forward to reading your link tomorrow after I’ve slept. Looks like it will be a good one. Blessings. selahV
Mark and SelahV,
We probably will not hear any Muslim “leaders” say what Mark has sensibly said. The reasons may have to do with who we think the moderate Muslim leaders are. For a good analysis of why more Muslim-Americans do not speak out, Andy McCarthy at National Review Online has written several great pieces, including “Which Islam Will Prevail,” (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244349/which-islam-will-prevail-america-andrew-c-mccarthy) and “Inventing Moderate Islam” (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244545/inventing-moderate-islam-andrew-c-mccarthy).
Howell
De La Torre has a response it seems to me to Raza and Fatah.
The concluding thoughts are strong indeed about Four Freedoms.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16565
Steve,
I have stated my opinion on a Mosque being built at Ground Zero. If you read my comment you see my position really has nothing to do with what I believe the Christian perspective is, because I feel there is no way to present one. My opposition has to do with the lack of sensitivity of it on behalf of those who would build it toward those who died there and continue to die because of it and their perspective families.
What is your personal view of the building of the Mosque? We both know the building of the Mosque has nothing to do with the CR or “fundamentalists” Christians. What do you really think about the Mosque being built at Ground Zero?
Just FYI
Video of the ground zero Iman telling an audience, outside the US, that we (the US) are ‘worse than al Qaeda’.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38673
Sounds a bit like Stepen trying to convince us that Jesse Helms and Robert Byrd (uh…wasn’t he a KKK, too?) are worse than the Muslim Terrorists who mass murder infidels.
Matt, sounds like the Iman speaks out of both sides of his mouth, doesn’t it? Depending on his audience. selahV
Matt and SelahV may be behind the curve on this one. Shirley Sherrod is the latest analogy on the Atlas Shrugged Birch Society soundbite. If you hear Imam RAuf in full in context, in the 05 speech, he in fact deplores the same thing Matt and the Birch Society wants us to believe he is endorsing.
Also Matt see my comment about four below from earlier on the Birch Society and Intentional Deceit.
Stephen, I’m always behind the curve. I need enlightenment with just about everything. Just look at this post. You’d think I was dumb as a sack of rocks–my logic falls short, my distinctions need work, I ask stupid questions, and CB wants to waterboard me, but won’t cause he is a gentleman. Ha ha. Had to do that CB
. selahV
If you won’t tell CB, sometimes I am behind the curve myself. Overall for whatever it’s worth I thought your original piece here is pretty well written and fairly magnanimous, kind of breath of fresh air.
With the exception of CB Scott we are all pretty much dumb as a sack of rocks,with JoeB and VolFan being the weightiest rocks in the sack.
But with everything virtuous in me on this matter, I do hope you will not waste another minute gettin your hands of Kimball’s great work: When Religion Becomes Evil.
Something very good could come of all this if you will get on it immediately and do another blog on all this in two weeks to 17 days.
In the meantime I hope you will consider the possibility Matt’s link to the Birchin Atlas Shrugged deceit may amount to another version of the lies told of Shirley Sherrod by the Devil’s Minion, Breitbart.
SelahV,
The truth is, I have never water-boarded an American, male or female. So don’t you worry. You are safe with me.
I got one sister and if she hadn’t married the fellow she did, well, like many of you, CB Scott woulda been number One on my list for a Brother In Law
Christmas Dinner would have been interesting Steve.
Keep dreaming, Stephen. I think Ayn Rand was evil and the Birchers died out decades ago. I have been a bit amused to see all the John Galt bumper stickers around. I guess it is a reaction to all the “moochers” of stimulus money both public and private.
I think you are fooled by the handsome Imam.
Stephen, “magnanimous”. I had to google that. hee hee. I thought it meant something nice, but was surprised to see how nice. Thanks for you kind encouraging words. I don’t know that Matt is too far off on his thoughts on the Imam. I will look into Kimball’s book. Just because you asked so nicely and are so nice to me.
Won’t promise a post because I was listening to Glenn Beck (shudder everyone), talk to the founder of Wall Builders on his program today. I happen to like Wall Builders a lot. I only caught the tailend of his show, but it seems that someone (in the Muslim community) is now trying to denigrate all of Christianity with the same accusation that when we Christians went to war in countries, and had victories that we built our Christian churches as a sign of conquest. PULEEZE. But I will look into Kimball’s work. Why the rush for a post from me? selahV
Matt, not to support Stephen because he said such nice things about me, but I know of a couple in Oklahoma who just started a John Birch group and are trying to recruit folks. I am not familiar with them, but know this to be a fact. selahV
) But really Matt, I wish you’d add a $ sign after your name so I know who you are. Blogtown has so many Matt’s I’m getting crazy trying to keep up with them. And if you put a $ sign next to your name, it could signify that everything you say is “on the money”. Hee, hee. Matt$, wouldn’t that be cool? selahV
BTW…do I know you Matt? I know you aren’t the editor of this blogsite, Matt. He and I seem to mix like oil and water. (I think it is a generational gap thing. Hi, Matt S.
I don’t normally gamble, but I might be willing to put $20 down on this prop bet. Here’s the challenge. Block the heading and then read a comment. Try to guess what the original article is.
I bet you can’t find any relationship between the comment and the post.
HA HA HA. Thanks, Dave. Your comment is spot on. selahV
The issue before us in all of this is religious liberty, and the President has come out said he is for the Muslims to have their right to build their cultural center/mosque with the area that was affected by the Jihadists attack upon the World Trade Towers. However, I have a serious question: Where was the President, when the North Carolina legislature denied the liberty of a Chistian minister to close his prayers at that august assemly “in Jesus name”? And where was the President, when the ACLU backed by some Jews and some Muslims, persuaded a judge that no Christian minister could pray before a Winston-Salem, NC city/county governmental meeting “in Jesus name”? All of which is passing strange as about 20-30 minutes to the East of Winston-Salem in Greensboro, NC is the Battlefield of Guilford Courthouse where one of my ancestors, a professing Christian, took part in a battle for (among other things) freedom of religion. Did he do that so his descendants could not pray in the name of Jesus? I know better. The powers behind the scenes want the Christians out of sight and out of mind, thinking they have no rights, while every one else does their thing. Sharia law will not allow Chistians to evangelize on street corners. How long will it allow Christians to even worship in their own buildings? There is a big difference between religious liberty and mere, degrading, patronizing tolerance. The arrest of believers on the streets of Dearborn, MI is a warning as to what is coming. I believ in religious liberty, but I don’t believe any country can long endure where part of the citizens believe and practice and another part does not believe it and practices to the contrary….just as in the matter of slavery. I for one will stand for religious liberty, but I question the wisdom of allowing those who do not believe in it to begin to institute a form of law that is essentially contrary to the Supreme Law of the land which is the US Constitution, a covenantal idea borrowed from the Old and New Testaments. Real care needs to be exercised in this matter, for who wants to lose their religious liberty to those who do not view it like we do, who view it as mere toleration and will not for a moment allow for any one to change his or her mind?
Matt: Your link is sponsored by the John Birch Society which in the 60′s had billboards all over the South with a Picture of Martin Luther King Jr saying he was at a Communist Training School.
Their School happenned to be near Sewanee Tennesse where Myles Horton using the Gospel he’d learned in class at Union Seminary with the likes of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Frank Fisher and Reinhold Niebuhr.
Charles Marsh has a lecture from Berlin earlier this year you can google up as your wait for his biography of Marsh. The same Marsh whose father was a classmate of Adrian Rogers at NOBTS and whose church member in Laurel Mississippi was SBC Peace Committee Member Charles Pickering.
I have not seen where Marsh speaks on the matter of theCordova Mosque or has attempted to channel Bonhoeffer on this matter, but I would be taken aback if either of them would put much stock in the Birch Society.
If I am not mistaken Rauf’s wife or a Muslim woman close to this Mosque effort in the presence of a friendly Jewish Rabbi spoke to this very matter of the Geller Atlas Shrugged blog Sunday on ABC This Week.
And now Ron Paul himself has come out saying the First Amendment is the bottom line here, dismissing the feeble Birch Society attempts to polarize matters further.
I guess I’m saying genocide is a serious matter.
I had an interesting conversation earlier this year invoking the name of Bonhoeffer with a nationally acclaimed novelist one of whose novels is in its third printing in French; conversation about the Shelton Laurel Massacre outside Asheville NC in 1863 where neighbor killed neighbor leaving 15 dead when it was over.
Matt, I think you and Newt Gingrich and the Birch Society have a great deal to learn from the witness of one of the greatest Servants of Jesus Christ in the 20th Century, a true Martyr for the Christian Faith, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Instead of arguing with me about it, begin a pilgrimage a walk toward greater Light with Charles Marsh’s Wayward Christian Soldiers; and come back to this board in a couple months with a guest blog review of the book and maybe we can advance this miserable discussion considerably.
Hariette, with Kimball’s book, hope you will engage Marsh as well; and maybe something good can come from this mess after all; incremental understanding, leaning toward Greater Light.
“Matt: Your link is sponsored by the John Birch Society which in the 60?s had billboards all over the South with a Picture of Martin Luther King Jr saying he was at a Communist Training School.
”
Stephen, I think it is time to take off the tin foil hat.
Are you talkin about the one Johnny Cash was wearing in M Knight Shamalyan Movie?
I know my Birch Society and I know you got a Shirley Sherrod problem with Geller; that’s what I know.
And if Curtis Freeman shows up for lunch at Duke with CB Scott, then CB won’t be as ignorant as he is now.
Click over to Jerry Vines Blog and see if I made the moderation cut on the comment I submitted there.
http://www.jerryvines.com/blog/memories-of-dr-clark-pinnock/
Put this under your tin foil cap.
When Vines was at West Rome, his congregation was eat up with Birchers. Couda been one reason why they were so receptive to Adrian Rogers when he preached his Secular Humanism sermon there on Tower of Babel in 79; just a thought before we get back to Cordoba Mosque
Steve,
Maybe if you come along, Freeman might join us, but I would rather talk to his predecessor Furman Hewitt again. I will never forget that conversation.
“I knew it would only be a matter of time before you would link Paige Patterson to Islamic terrorists.”
C.B., you’re losing it, man.
Thank you for noticing L’s. I am trying to get some weight off. I have been hitting the weights hard again. I ordered me a new treadmill. It should be here in a week or so. Next time you are in town, you can try it out. Then we will go out for Pizza. Bob Cleveland introduced me to a wonderful Italian place last year. I think you will love it.
Now if I could just get you to cease trying to tie Paige Patterson to all the evil in the world things will be great. Of course, we can talk about that over Pizza when you get into town.
Christiane:
You said to CB, “C.B., you’re losing it, man.”
Sadly, few of his “friends” will tell him this.
Tom, “IF” CB is losing it, at least he had something to lose. You on the other hand….
Tom Parker,
I will be in the Triad in September for the Duke-Bama game. I will be there for about five or six days to visit with family. I will stop by your office and we can get some lunch and talk about Lunatics, Nuts, Flakes, Wild Geese, Theological Dwarves, Cretans and such like. If you can get Gene Scarborough out of the trees, maybe he can join us.
I am most positive you two will have much to add to the conversation.
Tom: If Curtis Freeman could join you for lunch at Bullock’s in Durham, and you and Scarborough can find some tape recorders, I would consider it.
Freeman wrote the story on Criswell’s 56 speech to the SC legislature, and how Stewart Newman, one of my Baptist heroes, Atticus Finch like, stood up and said WA Criswell does not speak for me.
One of the great Baptist utterances of the 20th Century.
Hopefully Freeman is up on Page 51 on Diarmand MacCulloch’s book where in one paragraph he laid waste to Pressler’s trip to see Jack Flanders at Baylor in 65 or so.
And hold CB to reading Blood Done Sign My Name, a colleague of Freeman At Duke,Tim Tyson; before you spend your valuable time with him. Make him earn it.
Unless Freeman and Scarborough promise to show up, if I were you I’d skip it.
Two other notes for all,
Get Low with Duvall and Lucas Black opens Friday; and many of you will want to read my submission to Jerry Vines blog on Clark Pinnock.
It is awaiting moderation.
Steve,
Bullock’s is nice. Good idea. Why don’t you catch a plane and join us?
Sean Hannity and Rupert Murdoch in bed with Imam Rauf? Unless I am as dumb as SelahV’s Sack of Rocks that is what I think we are looking at here:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/foreign-policy/77176/ground-zero-mosque-the-subversive-theology-imam-rauf-contd
Rupert Murdoch does own Fox News, Right?
To quote the Baptist preacher’s Daughter, Aretha Franklin: “Who’s Zoomin Who?”
And, when will the Birch Society jump on Rupert?
Hey Stephen, let’s join hands and write a conspiracy thriller. You do the research, I’ll do the writing. We could say that the Imam is building this mosque to say Islam is conquering that spot. Then we could have all the Al-Qaeda folks kissing up to him (behind the scenes of course). Then the government (Obama who everyone is thinking is an undercover Muslim anyway), use the Imam as a double agent who is actually going to use the mosque in New York as a recruiting spot for sleeper cells. And then these sleeper cells are being infiltrated because the government (who everyone distrusts) has used this new mosque to “bug” like the Russians do our American Embassies. And in the end of the show, we discover the Imam is a conservative Republican who was converted to Christianity. And the enemy becomes the hero. Huh? wanna? Huh?
selahV
Don’t want to give away all my original ideas, but Criswell if much better fodder for a movie than the Imam. I don’t want to say I’m talkin to people; but I did call Brad Pitt’s brother once on another matter, but all I got was the answering machine. I was close to gettin him to pickin up the phone.
You got to figure the market on these matters. Hariette, if you got avenues to deep pockets who are ready to put up $50 million; risk it on an idea then we’re in business.
Tough news is Gangs of New York was a great movie but last I heard 8 years out it’s still to turn a profit.
If the Criswell movie is never done, I guess the closest we’ll get is the street preacher who plays opposite Haze Motes in the 1980 version of Wise Blood with Brad Dourif as Haze. You ever seen that? It’s Criswell for sure. Haze has a great line.
Stuttering he says: “But I’m Serious”.
I’m always thinking but gettin poorer by the day.
Stephen, I want to be kind here, and I hope you take this with the same spirit in which you spoke of my magnanimous spirit on this blogpost above. And I am serious, my friend, I think your continual hammering on Criswell is almost as divisive to this thread as the mosque at Ground Zero. Criswell will always be a remarkable preacher and theologian to our history as Baptists. If the paper I read of Criswell’s is truth on his opinion on the segregation issue, then I am sorry he said those things. I can imagine the hurt and heartache that his words caused in that day. I also imagine if he were alive today, he would have another view entirely. I truly believe that, Stephen. To rehash that here doesn’t seem to have a thing to do with what I wrote in the post above–definitely no more than my silly joking about the conspiracy thriller.
God’s grace be upon you, Stephen. May your love for our Lord grow deeper with each day. and I am serious.
selahV
Maybe we can pick up Criswell in another venue. I think he was a scalawag, but a colorful one. I wish Truett had lived long enough to take him to the Woodshed,like Eisenhower took Joe McCarthy; that is what Criswell deserved.
But he was colorful and he sure could wear that zuit suit, and as a performance artist he was quite a show. How seriously he was to be taken, well atsome point we get into Steven Miller’s conundrum with Billy Graham; how do you examine an icon whose words are so much of the public record.
I am glad you read Curtis Freeman’s piece The Fiery Sermon on Criswell in 56. In it if you paid attention you got an inkling of the great man, Stewart Newman, who was the Atticus Finch of the story.
I read today on Jerry Vines blog where he mocked was derisive of Carlyle Marney. If the definitive essay on that time gets written, I hope you will read it.
I am hopeful and take you at your word you will be reading Charles Kimball’s When Religion Becomes Evil, soon.
I had an email exchange with him today. He is aware of the conversation here.
Scalawag???
There you go again Steve. I don’ think W.A. Criswell ever worked for the Yankees and Carpetbaggers.
I always thought he was a furrier whose specialty was “skunk” pelts.
Come on CB; it’s a metaphor not a literal usage.
Analogous in the realm of parable.
Compared to George Truett, in whose Birthplace Memorial namesake church I got saved and was Baptized; which Stewart Newman visitted on an occasion circa 1960; in relation to SBC of Truett and the best of that tradition contra Jerry Vines Blog of yesterday was indeed Carlyle Marney, Stewart Newman and not Adrian Rogers and Criswell; with that as the reference and Not the Civil War; in the Best of the Baptist Tradition Criswell was a SCALAWAG.
I want to use another word, a Will Campbell word, but I will hold my cabbage so I can continue to participate on this board.
As Lincoln said, the Judgments of the Lord are True and Righteous Altogether.
Or Somethinglike that.
Ihave said it, you better believe it, and that settles it.
You know, you are right Steve.
It was a “metaphor not a literal usage. Analogous in the realm of parable.”
I think that is the exact same way Criswell used the word “skunks.”
Moslem Parking in Mayfield Ky.
Have yall seen that story yet; How ridiculous.
Flower shop owner said Baptists know how to park but Moslem’s don’t.
Talk about Goodwill.
MohlerandRuss Moore ought to show a little hospitality.
Google up the story which went national tonight on MSNBC Countdown
Stephen, Mayfield is not a very big town in KY as I recall. This could be a genuine situation. Our church in East Hartford, Connecticut couldn’t get a license to build up on our church to make more S.S. space when we were outgrowing our church, because the parking was a problem. But I bet the MSNBC wouldn’t have covered that if they’d been around back then. I think you will now see every single solitary grievance being spotlighted about Muslims, now.
Why don’t you research and try and find out how many things that the goverment has done in the last, let’s say, two years that have stepped on the rights and sensibilities of Christians? I’d be glad to write a post on that for you. selahV
I need to make this statement directly to SSBN.
It became apparent to me that my pointing to the existence of hate groups who steep their rhetoric in bastardized versions of scripture was misconstrued as trying to say, “We’re just as bad as they are” when that wasn’t my intent.
I was trying to point out that there are crazy radicals which use the bible in the same way someone would say, “The sky is blue” in that I was trying to state a fact of their existence.
That was my fault for the ambiguity.
My pointing to the crusades was to point out that historically, Christ has been used a rallying point for people to justify their horrific actions which can be found throughout the recorded history of various aspects of the crusades despite not having full and total backing from the Vatican which was considered the church at the time. I was trying to make the same point and tie it all together.
I wasn’t trying to make, but I did make a straw man argument which doesn’t have a place in this conversation.
Your rebuttal of my statements was accurate just as my intended points are accurate but not relevant to this thread.
Matt, please delete my postings concerning that because they do not contribute in any way to our discussions here.
Thank you for this post. I am glad someone said this and that it is receiving attention here. I hope we will begin to realize that our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven is more important than our citizenship as an American.
QUOTE I hope we will begin to realize that our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven is more important than our citizenship as an American. END QUOTE
Are you just now beginning to realize this? I don’t know anyone who has ever believed any different that posts on this blog.
SSBN,
I agree with you. Who among us who has actually experienced the wonder of Christ and knows we sit in the “heavenlies” would for a moment consider this temporal abode as home I am a sojourner here. But God has stated for me to be a diligent sojourner and steward of all He has provided while I am here. God made me an America, I have a stewardship as an American.
But, praise God, this ain’t my home!!
SSBN, I don’t know Keith, but would bet that more than the folks who post here, read this blog. And there probably are a few out there in lah lah land that do think their Americanism is more important. If nothing else, maybe it speaks to them??? selahV
Keith, thanks so much. I pray that the words I wrote are read far and wide and that Muslims find their way through the google links and discover that Jesus Christ is the Lord of Lords, and only begotten Son of God. I pray the Holy Spirit reaches beyond this monitor and helps all Muslims who read these words to know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I am a Christian. But nothing I do in all the world, no matter how much I feed the poor, give to the destitute, or love my neighbor is enough good to get me into heaven. Nor would all my good ever outweigh the sinfulness that separates me from the Most High God, apart from Jesus Christ who left the majesty of His throne in Heaven, to become a man, to die on a cross, shed His blood as God’s perfect sacrifice (illustrated to us early in the book of Genesis as Abraham offered up Isaac, his only son) for our sins. It’s Jesus’ blood and death on the cross that paid the penalty for my sin, and all who look to Him in faith. Jesus was not a prophet, He is the living Son of God. He came not to save sinners. To cleanse us from all unrighteousness. He paid the penalty that each and every person deserves so all who believe in Him, rely on Him and trust in Him can live eternally with Him and the Father in heaven. That, dear Keith is the purpose of this post. May God bring much fruit from it. Thank you for commenting. May God surround you with His grace and pour out blessings abundantly. selahV
Hariette: I think you are prime to start wading into Diarmand MacCulloch’s 3,000 years of Christianity. Read the last 30 pages first and then maybe the segment on the Three Great Suspicions.
SSBN and CB Scott aren’t gonna listen to me; but maybe you can translate it to them.
There is a great big wide world of Christendom outside the confines of fundamentalism and Inerrancy. I hope you Pilgrim on.
Ah, but Stephen, I haven’t figured out all I need to learn about Fundamentalism and Inerrancy yet. I’m doing my best…thank God for Philippians 1:6. The Christ will not let me down, I’m sure. selahV P.S. I’m gonna give you a big red heart and a smiley face for spelling my name right. Good going! <3
And thanks for spellin mine with a PH
One thing’s for sure, if that mosque is built there, it can be a constant reminder of who did what to whom, in that very neighborhood. A bit like the Dachau museum I went through, which detailed what all had gone on there and was built so that it might not ever be allowed to happen again.
A wise statement Bob. Maybe we could put that sign up like at Dachau that says:
“NEVER AGAIN”
Bob, great thoughts on how to make lemonade from lemons. selahV
Does anybody notice that certain people must constantly bash Al Mohler and others? These are the same people who constantly refer to the “milder side” of Our Lord.
Seems like hypocrisy to me. Why is it that a moderate can be hateful and spiteful but whines and shouts if a conservative does the same thing?
It really does get old. But, then again, it might be effective. Hitler said, “Say something loud enough long enough and people will begin to believe it is true.”
I must confess to be a little annoyed by it.
SSBN…yes. I have noticed that people keep bashing a lot of folks. And so many of these men of God don’t have any idea folks are being so snipey towards them. It is sad. I wrote a post on that once at my site…”One man’s wit is another man’s arrogance”. Just about every blog has had its share of dissing Mohler, Patterson, Chapman, Vines et al. They don’t have to say a word on the blogpost and their name come up. You can write a post about butterflies and this would happen. I wish it wouldn’t. But the grenade throwers and stone lobbers just can’t help themselves. They just need more of our prayers, SSBN. I get particulary ticked off when anyone speaks disparagingly about Adrian Rogers. I noticed his name come up in someone’s comment and I knew to just keep on going. God reminded me that He was dining with Adrian that very moment, and for me not to fret. He sees and hears everything. He does not sleep, nor does he slumber. Good night my new friend. selahV
Adrian Rogers, Ed McAteer and Billy Graham:
Hariette, Coincidentally I came across this item this morning I wouldhope you would look at.
David Rogers, Adrian’s son, and I have developped an online friendship of sorts at various blogs, mostly SBCImpact. I posted a few items at his blog LoveEachStone three years ago.
I wouldn’t say he would call me his best friend, but I think our online conversations are cordial, bordering on frank and straightforward on occasion, especially recently on the death of Cecil Sherman where David drifted over to baptistlife.com for a few posts.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16574
This morning Bruce Prescott in the link above raises some question about Adrian Rogers role with Ed McAteer in the creation of the Religious Right and its key positioning in the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. At a minimum it would raise questions about David’s contention his Father was virginal in these matters, in re a recent declaration, about a month ago atSBCImpact where David said in 99 Adrian Rogers washed his hands of the Moral Majority and told Falwell that was not where his emphasis was.
This essay by Bruce Prescott shades it all a little differently, to say the least.
Stephen,
I think you may be guilty of throwing in a little spin with what was actually said. The only thing I commented on, related to my father’s relationship with Falwell, and the Moral Majority, was the direct quote, in this comment:
http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/07/19/whats-more-important-theology-or-saving-america/comment-page-2/#comment-53770
Here is another quote from David’s daddy that many people might not believe he made.
“In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.”
Now, I realize he was quoting Augustine there and he credited him thusly. Nonetheless, to paint Adrian Rogers as anything but honorable is wrong. He was a benevolent man who believed the Bible without compromise. And that made him a leader.
And SelahV is right. This is about the Mosque, not he CR.
CB, fine with me; take Hariette’s cue.
I’d love for you and Hariette to do a duet blog on the legacy of Adrian Rogers.
I think Gene Scarborough has a few words; maybe Jerry Vines will pick up on his blog, and we could compare his remark about Carlyle Marney and Clark Pinnock; and explore further the dissonance of Robert Marsh on the CR with Adrian Rogers who was at NOBTS with Vines and the boys and go from there.
Until that time, I’m more than happy to get back to Mosque with you and maybe we can explore Mayfield, Kentucky parking issues.
Ed McAteer who founded the Religious Roundtable out of Bellevue Baptist; McAteer always reminded me of Pappy of the Real McCoys.
Rupertus Meldenius???
David, I have never heard of Ole Rupert. Was he one of Ole Uncle Lagundas Meldenius’ boys?
Seriously David, every time I have ever heard or read that quote it has been attributed to Augustine. Thanks for the correction. Nonetheless, I know your daddy said it. And I believe he honored it.
Stephen, I am going to kindly ask you again…we’re talking about a mosque being built in NY and how as Christians, we can allow our vitriolic statements to hinder the gospel as pertaining to that mosque. This thread is NOT about Criswell, Adrian Rogers, Patterson or any of those who were not in favor of the Conservative Resurgence. Please. Do not draw David Rogers into a conversation that has nothing to do with this post. Write one of your own, if you choose. But do not usurp this post to dump on the CR. I have not always agreed with David Rogers, but I count him a friend and brother in Christ who doesn’t need to have someone who knows little about his father to drag his name through a liberal mudhole. selahV
Hariette:
I count David Rogers as a friend as well.
I am disappointed in your thin skin here, your overreaction.
No liberal Mudhole here, just exploring in good faith the wider penumbra of the Mosque question in reference to Charles Kimball’s thoughts in When Religion Becomes Evil on the problem across fundamentalisms of Absolute Certainty and how it plays out in various traditions.
I thought at one point you were bringing a little more water to the discussion than maybe you are.
Even so, Kimball is something of a force in these discussions outside your world here,and till this morning I took you to be interested in Light.
I hope you can regain your composure and we can look at how this is playing out in Mayfield, Kentucky as there are more Baptists there quite likely,percentage than there are in lower Manhattan.
As I said it was a coincidence that Prescott posted his thoughts on fundamentalism and the look back at the Religious Roundtable this morning at Ed.com.
I saw it there and as these discussions here at the Voices are wide ranging, thought you would have the largeness of heart to give notice to a matter for later reference in our concerted effort to find truth wherever it is.
A blessing might not be in order here, but if not immediately, hope you will be able to understand my heart in this matter within a few days.
CB,
FWIW, the correct source of the quote is actually Rupertus Meldenius.
See here: http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/augustine/quote.html
I hear your point, though, and it is well-received.
Hariette,
We have agreed on a few things now and then, too.
I just noticed DAvid’s link to Augustine.
In all sincerity and good will David, I hope you can make time soon to wade into David MacCulloch’s masterpiece on the first 3,000 years of Christianity.
Take a look at the last 30 pages, the segment on the Three Great Suspicions, and the pregnant thought on page 905. 905 meshes beautifully with this little aside we are having this morning on Bellevue, Ed McAteer and the Religious Roundtable.
In respect of CB Scott and Hariette, will hold off on my interpretation of your Dad’s Unity Quote till later. May bring it to Fisher Humphreys attention to see how it digests with him in this context.
Hope things otherwise are well.
Sfox
David, yes…we have agreed on many issues, my friend. I often remember you in prayer. How could I not? I get your dad’s prompter via his devotionals in my email box each day. The Spirit guides us in the most amazing ways, sometimes, doesn’t He? selahV
Stephen, I appreciate your engagements here. I am not the least thin-skinned. I do have a tender part in my heart for one of the greatest preachers in my opinion of all time, Adrian Rogers. His ministry lives on in the hearts of millions as I speak. As far as Kimball is concerned, I told you I would take a look at that book. I cannot begin to be expected to make any kind of response to something I have not read–nor do not know where it seeks to lead its readers. However, I do know what name-tossing can lead to in blogstreams, and I do not want this particular post to lose the fire for which I’ve set with my tiny little match because other emotions are tossed onto the flames.
Praying great grace upon you, Stephen. I am not mad at you, nor do I feel anything in particular…am quite calm. Heart’s not beating any faster. Breathing is regular. And I have no desire to run to the store to assauge some inner passion for chocolate by buying a box of ding-dongs.
I am a happy camper for the most part. Blogging is a joy to me. I feel I’ve shown myself to be quite “magnanimous” to you in all things, Stephen. Just stop bringing up the CR in this thread. That’s all I am asking of you. It is not about the CR. I know. I am the author of this post. Even if I am not the moderator of this blogsite, I am the facilitator of this particular stream. Friends? selahV
Hariette, here is an excerpt from Kimballs WRBE.
His homepage at OU.edu has lot of other options as well, reviews etc while you are looking for the book.
http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/K/Charles.A.Kimball-1/excerpt.pdf
CB,
Well .. wherever the mosque might be located, there’s bound to be property on its right, and property on its left.
Bob,
The only church completely destroyed during 9-11 was a Greek Orthodox Church. You should check out the ordeal they are going through to reestablish their church facilities. They have had a terrible time thus far.
Why has the present administration not spoken out for the Greek Orthodox? It makes me wonder.
For today, Let’s look at the Mosque in Mayfield, Kentucky. That town has more in common with many of us than NYC; lot more prevailng Baptist influence there.
Anybody have any wisdom for Mayfield. What would you do if you were in Mayfield? What would the pastor of Maytown Baptist do, the one in Alabama? Has he spoken, this former President of the Pastor’s Conference?
I tell you what Steve.
Let’s get together and talk about it. The former president of the Alabama Baptist Pastor’s Conference and “this” Former Secretary-Treasurer of the Alabama Baptist Pastor’s Conference will gladly weigh in on the matter. What do you say?
BTW Steve, John and I did talk about this yesterday at lunch.
You should talk about me at lunch because I’m a force for good when not needlessly encumbered with Kudzu.
Killian should blog about the Mayfield Situation and we can go from there.
Right now, even in the wake of a strong article I read this morning at The New Republic, I’m proud of Mayor Bloomberg’s speech last night.
In Re Criswell and Duke’s Curtis Freeman who did the piece about the 56 Fiery Sermon; he just posted at bl.com in regard our discussion here this morning.
So from Adrian Rogers son to the Duke author of the 56 Criswell treatise we have broken some ground this morning on the 1980 Roundtable. Some light and I hope more to come.
Steve,
I have no doubt you are a force for good when not encumbered with kudzu.
CB…did you know that the Kudzu plant was so named because it grew fast and furiously and overtook Southeastern United States in which it grows? In fact, that’s part of why it’s also been called “the vine that ate the South”. Interesting, isn’t it? selahV
SelahV,
You don’t understand. You are a Yankee. How could you understand?
We hate Kudzu down here in Dixie. It is not native to the Southland. It is not even native to the United States.
It was sent among us just like you Yankees and we ain’t got over it since.
CB…I may be a Yankee, but curiosity got the better of me and I had to google “kudzu”. I read where it over-took the South, my friend. And I also read where it was a foreign plant from Japan and China and made its way into America’s homeland. Kudzu so intrigues me that I am now writing a post for my site about it. There is a lot of ways a Kudzu parable can be interpreted, CB.
If you’re of the mind…stop over to my site tomorrow and eat your fill. Today’s post is already up from the wee hours of the morning–Saved and Certain. But anyone with a hangover from this addictive venue of blogging, may well appreciate what it says and may enjoy tomorrow’s post also
Long live “Kudzu”…selahV 
CB…the present administration usually only speaks to issues that get 24-7 news play. That little church doesn’t seem to have many folks in its corner. selahV
And Hariette and CB before my invocation of Kudzu as an attempt at self deprecation takes a sour twist,
I do want to enter into the record two references that have caught my attention over the years and I highly recommend.
The Novel Cousins to the Kudzu which in my mind I associate with Jerry Vines and Newt Gingrich because it was written in the early 80′s by a proff at West Georgia which was Jerry Vines Stompin Grounds and where Newt Gingrich taught for a good while.
And Two the collection of Essays Cathedrals of Kudzu by Hal Crowther; which along with his Collection Gather at The River is a great antidote to a Jesse Helms mentality that pervades too much of our region like Kudzu.
Stephen, thanks for sharing. selahV
Maybe as this winds down toward something resembling closure we are back close to where it started; at least the good will effort of Hariette and many others on this matter toward some bottom line sensibility:
http://www.tnr.com/blog/john-mcwhorter/77216/barack-obama-muslim-public-opinion-racial-fear-paranoia-islamaphobia
Now here is a mystery: there is a ‘report’ (veracity ????? I don’t have a clue) out there.
Is this report the TRUTH or is it not true?
And if it IS the truth, do the questions about the mosque need to be re-visited by Christian people, in the light of this strange connection?
http://s-data.current.com/news/92623023_fox-news-co-owner-funded-ground-zero-mosque-imam-report.htm
Anyone out there know anything about this?
Christiane, Stephen alluded to it yesterday, but we didn’t have a link. Quite a story. Will be interested to see where it leads. Right now, anything I could say would be pure speculation. As I said to Stephen yesterday, don’t know that the conspiracy is quite yet uncovered enough for me to write a book about it. Thanks again for the link.
Part of the reason for my post was to deflect some of the heated debates being touted on the networks (all of them). Which is why I believe Christians need to keep their heads about this when saying what their hearts feel.
In the final analysis, I do believe we Christians would do well to remember Paul’s warning that we do not battle against flesh and blood, but principalities, realms of darkness…” This is not about political conspiracies or mogul capitalism (which that Islamic extremists detest). It is about watching what we say, how we say it, and discerning what is in the best interests of the conversations the Most High God wants to use us to magnify His Son, Jesus.
Grace be yours.
selahV
AMEN, Selah.
I appreciate your work here.
CB,
I read about that. There are apparently reasons .. like that spot, their old location, being on some government’s list as a place they want to put something. The mosque apparently isn’t.
And I hate eminent domain anyway, most especially stuff like this.
You ask why the administration hasn’t spoken out? Like, that’s a surprise? Eminent domain isn’t the only thing I don’t like.
A fascinating story we could learn from is here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-fuchs-kreimer/park51-should-not-be-comp_b_690452.html
Dreyfus is interesting too. 140 years later and the French still haven’t settled it.
Christiane, you and Hariette may want to look tnr.com site aswell forsome other twists and religion dispatches.
Here is the window to Dreyfus for you deep students on this matter
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-p-gushee/americas-dreyfus-case_b_690908.html
Baptists own David Gushee by way of Mohler’s Southern, Dockery’s Union and now Underwood’s Mercer.
Nope…don’t do Huffington for anything. ever. selahV
Selah, I’m laughing because I feel the same way about FOX.
Christiane, difference between you and me…I’m not laughing. selahV
Selah, you will laugh once you see this.
http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/08/24-1
Well, Christiane, now, I’m really not in the mood to follow anymore links, today. Perhaps tomorrow. selahV
Selah, I just read your blog and I am so sorry. My prayers are with you and your family today. God bless you and keep you close.
http://selahvtoday.typepad.com/selahv/2010/08/thirtynine-years-later-i-still-remember.html
Christa Brown now has her sites on Newt Gingrich and the Cordoba Mosque.
It didn’t register with me till this morning she was a PHD candidate in Religious Studies at Illif in Denver. I also see where she is a fan of Russell Banks. If I were doing a profile in the New Yorker about her, I woulda hoped she could explore Banks The Sweet Hereafter as maybe a window into her motivations, but at this point we just don’t know if she is as enamored of its insights and mysteries as she is Affliction.
I know Continental Drift haunted me in the early 80′s.
Her listing of The DAvince Code on her blog best books column is something of a Mild Red Flag; would be interested to see her blog on that.
She has a full plate for sure; I do hope she can look at the Diarmand MacCulloch book.
I do hope she doesn’t get a spot on Larry King panel or PBS Newshour on this matter to take on Newt. There are much better folks to do that.
DAvid Gushee and his column on the Dreyfuss Affair at Huff Post comes to mind first. I would imagine Gushee has mastered the wisdom of Kimball’s book, and could compare Newt’s fundamentalism from his short stay in the SBC, to Gushee and Carey Newman’s short stay at Southern Seminary with Mohler under the Covenant of 94
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16583
At same time if it could be made distinct from her other crusades I give her strong thumbs up on this column on Newt.
It gives me a different and better understanding or her concerns.
I do wish she coulda worked in a line in there about the lessons of the Movie Freedom Writers, and the dark shadows of nativism and the worst instincts of a Lee Atwater like Populism Newt is taunting.
It was an evil thing Newt did with his statement last week, the worst sort of political calculating and Christa has pointed that out well.
If she followsup I hope she calls his former Pastor and SBC leader Ike Reighard into the conversation, even Charles Stanley and his son Andy.
I guess Ben Cole can pick it up from here.
Stephen, I think I’m beginning to catch your drift. Maybe I’m wrong. But you seem to enter a stream and float out to the middle, and then simply lob your own agendas and write your own post within each post. While some of the talking heads, and others ranting, are some of the players in this debacle of a mosque being built and protested at Ground Zero, “seem” to point to the topic of this post; they are not the point. You are still missing the entire point and focus of the post–no matter how many times I point it out to you. You, my new-found friend in blogtown, are doing the same thing that talking heads are doing on television–indeed other blogs. You are standing on the other side of their streets and tossing stones as lethal and inciting and disturbing as any they may lob. It is time to put down the stones, Stephen. Do you not understand that?
Do you think for a New York minute I could not have added at minimum–twenty links that have an opposing viewpoint and reveal the hearts and minds of those you and Christiane so speedily Google-up to make some point that has nothing…absolutely NOTHING…to do with the point of my post? I’m not that stupid, Stephen…I can google, too. I can add fodder to the fire also…the point is that our lives as Christians compel us to chew on that fodder, swallow it if need be…because someday, my friend–it will all be burned away in the purification of our very souls. All that will be worth anything of anything we have done will remain. Only the gold that the tortured, mocked, rejected, crucified Lord Jesus Christ seeks from us as His set-apart, sanctified, and justified, and redeemed–will be left behind. Do you not get this? All else is hay and stubble. All of it. All the time we spend looking at the whys of yesterday, all the words we write negatively about the whos of yesterday. All of it. Straw that will be consumed with the blink of our Savior’s eyes. Christ has more for me to do than read all the rants and ravings, conspiracies, and pure junk.
I’m done, my friend. Have at it. This is a free stream for all the consciences who seek to continue to add their fodder. Who want to bait, hook, and release. I have more to write about…and it involves Jesus…my Savior and Lord. He has me pop onto the SBC Voices site every now and then, by the grace afforded me by the owner, Tony Kummer. This banter is not my forte’. When minds are so fueled by ideology and personal viewpoints, and embedded in the link-lines of secular verbosity, and so anchored to the world’s grip, it is impossible for me to steer their boats for them. I tried, through my original post, to provide a “breath of fresh air” for the sails of men…only Christ can do that. Tis why I’m grateful for SelahV Today. I enjoy the peaceful waters and the gentle streams. I enjoy sitting there fishing for the souls of men, women and sometimes children. I enjoy tossing out a bucket of bait without any hooks at all. I know that there, the fish will eat and grow anyway–and hopefully, other fisherman who sit silently on my banks will have a bit to feed the five thousand they know. I provide no distracting links that lead to another’s divisiveness. Just whatever the Lord feeds me. I share it with others. Come by some time.
God bless you, dear Stephen. May His light be ever-present before you. And may His abundance of blessings be yours in days ahead. selahV
Stephen, her web site is beautiful.
Hariette, You may like this poem by Mary Oliver.
It is possible that Christianne and I have discussed it before:
Maybe, my Mary Oliver:
http://members.cox.net/mppowers1/maybe.html
Especially the line: “You know how it is when Something Different Crosses the Threshhold.”
And maybe if we had shared dinner at a Sacred Harp singing, your estimation of me woulda been a little more rounded.
For what’s its worth the Mosque topic as you have noticed has a pretty strong flame going already. It woulda caught fire here I think it is safe to assume whether I ever made a peep or not.
For what it’s worth, yesterday I discussed with my sister your phrase one man’s wit is another man’s arrogance. That’s pretty strong whether original or borrowed, it’s strong.
And the floating out to the middle rubric; that’s pretty good too.
We may have blog exchange middle of September or after.
Till then, all the best.
Baptists Woman preacher with a Muslim Church Staffer
Could be JoeB’s worst nightmare.
I thought about taking a pass on this one but figured the news would get around soon enough so thought I’d go ahead and see where it goes here.
Could make my top three articles on this whole matter, with Gushee in at Two and The Mere One from RD or TNR the bottom line Numero Uno:
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5641/9/
And here is PROOF that you believe that a muslim can go to heaven.
See, the reaction of a Christian to something like this would be “She has a muslim on her church staff? How can she do that and call herself a Christian?” A Christian would be concerned because obviously this woman has not shared the gospel with her muslim staffer.
You, on the other hand, celebrate this because you believe people can go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Christ alone, which is why you are not a Christian.
Oh, and my anti-spam word was “Snarf”. Just kidding
Well, about the anit-spam word, not about you not being a Christian.
Fox,
ANY Christian should have a serious problem with this.
Brandon, you want to think about how Christ would react to the kindness shown to a ‘stranger in a strange land’.
Take ANOTHER look at the DETAILS of how this man was treated by Christians. I think you will get my point.
And yes, I am very aware of why Joe B. would freak out.
Joe has problems with other Christians to the point where he freaks out. But there exists Christian people who have a heart for those strangers among us who are different, and see them not as stereotypes, but as people to be cared for in the Name of Christ.
If someone didn’t share the gospel with him, that salvation is exclusively found only by faith in Christ and repentance from sin, then maybe they can put a check by their “Good Deed for the Day” box on their little list but they did the man no enternal good whatsoever. Because no matter how you want to mock the gospel or twist the gospel, the gospel is not a person.
The gospel is that God is holy, righteous, and justly offended by our sin. Jesus Christ came and bore the penalty of that sin by dieing on the cross. His resurrection three days later proves that He was God incarnate and that God accepted His sacrafice. Only those who repent of their sins and trust Christ alone to save them (and no, He won’t save anybody without them realize He is doing the saving) will go to heaven.
That is the gospel. You won’t hear that from Wade, Debbie, or any of the moderates.
Suck it up and deal with it.
We’re gonna outreach like its 1959!!!!
Joe Blackmon probably even uses the FAITH method which begins by establishing your rapport with a person by lying to their face before sharing the gospel to them.
Great way to establish trust and model Christianity.
Well, I have plenty of problems with that method. But it’s way better than your team’s version of the gospel “Love God, love people, that’s all Jesus said”.
I’m sure no one has ever spelled it out for you, but that’s the law, not the gospel. Oh, and no one is going to be saved by Jesus without realizing that it’s Him doing the saving.
L’s,
The man is not a “stranger” to Amy Butler. To say such is foolish. He is a lost man on his praying-five-times-a-day-to-a-false-demonically-driven-and-empowered-god way to hell, who works in her office.
His lostness is evident. Will she or will she not tell him the truth is the question.
Hey, cb, come on now. The gospel is a person–it’s not like some statement of truth that tells us how to be right with God. After all, if we’re sincere enough, God just HAS to accept us–unless we’re conservatives, then we’re of the devil. I mean, love God, love people, and everything’ll be ok. You know, faith trumps belief and all that. [/sarcasm[
At least, that’s what the believe in Enid.
“-a-false-demonically-driven-and-empowered-god”
I never thought of the God of Abraham in this way before.
I don’t believe it’s true.
Hi C.B.,
I know where it is you are coming from, and you know I come from a very different place. Where I am from, we are all ‘strangers in a strange land’, C.B.
And the only signpost to help us is the Cross of Christ.
Next time you read your Bible, think of this, and you might begin to understand the people who don’t come from that place where you come from:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POm7_WBMJTI&feature=related
L’s,
You are right. It is true that you, L’s, are a stranger, not to this world, but to the household of God. The reason you are a stranger is because you only have religion and nothing more.
L’s, religion will: give you a head full of knowledge, a heart full of emptiness” and an eternity full of hell.
On the other hand, I am a sojourner in this land, but not a stranger to the household of God. The reason I am not a stranger to the household of God is:
“But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the Blood of Christ….so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.”
See L’s, you are a stranger to the household of God because you depend on religion.
I am not a stranger to the household of God because I depend on the Blood of Christ.
That’s the difference between us L’s.
L’s, My poor, poor, lost, friend L’s,
How can you for one moment believe the god of Islam is the Mighty God, Elohim, the Creator of all things, The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, the Provider of the Blood Atonement, whose children call Him Savior?
Here is the difference L’s.
There is One God. That One God is: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. He is the only God of Scripture.
The god of Islam is like unto the many gods whose origin is of hell, a spore impregnated by Satan into the hearts and minds of fallen and depraved men to lead those who would sacrifice at their alters to a torment in hell everlasting where the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies.
The god of Islam is a son of Satan and brother to Baal, Molech, Diana and Issis.
If you knew the God of Abraham and Father of the Christ, you would know the difference.
Steve,
I read the article. I realize the Muslim is a clerical worker and not in a ministry position and may not be in any involvement with the staff other than answering the phone, but here is the question.
Do you believe Amy Butler will share with the fellow that the practice of Islam is a highway to Hell and that eternal life is only in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Or do you believe she will remain proud of her inclusiveness and never tell the man the truth?
Maybe at the heart of this post, lies the question ‘how should Christian people inter-act with their Muslim neighbors in a way that promotes the image of Lord Christ in that interaction?
I think that Hariette (Selah V) has tried to promote that question in her writing here.
What do Muslim people see, when they encounter the different faces of people who proclaim to follow Lord Christ?
Whatever ‘forces’ are at work in the controversy over building that mosque, some may, of course, be those that want to reveal Christians in a way that is not representative of Our Lord as He was with people when He was among us.
It is extremely important that Christian people do not allow themselves to be drawn into the kind of behaviors that do not honor Our Lord in their witness before the watching Islamic world.
Thanks, Christiane…it’s nice to read that someone “gets” what I’m getting at. selahV
L’s,
Honestly, do you believe that those of the Islamic faith are condemned to hell unless they repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel?
Have you ever worked closely enough with those who follow Islam that you were able to share the truth of the gospel with them and let them know that without Christ they were lost and hopeless in their quest for eternal life as a Muslim?
It is extremely important to know the gospel and be a Christian before one is concerned with what a Muslim thinks of Christians in any way.
CB…that is one of the most important things I’ve ever read from you. After hearing Afshin Ziafat at our church last Sunday, I came to an incredible realization and they need to know about Jesus. Muslims think Jesus was a prophet like Mohammed. the even respect that he was a prophet. But that is as far as it goes. They need to know that Jesus is our God, not a good teacher who did good things. Muslims think they die and stand at heaven’s gate and a literal scale weighs their good and their bad and which ever has the most weight is what gets them into heaven. Heaven is not contingent upon our righteousnes–but Christ’s–and it took Jesus to make us righteous. Why so many folks do not see that is beyond me. Truly. selahV
Well, actually, CB—the most valuable of readings I have stored in my treasure box was when you explained how very important the blood of Christ was–the power in it. That was the most important thing I’ve read. wish you’d start a blog again. selahV
I may, in the future, start another blog SelahV.
I might name it:
MERCS FOR JESUS
Would you like to be a contributor?
evensong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCvwMjd502A
The gospel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZuVt7qWO80
IN CHRIST ALONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8welVgKX8Qo
Joe,
A-Men. To know the gospel and make the gospel known.
So Barry King, from London, England, is one of my facebook friends. And I happened to read his comments on the Mosque controversy and said I sure wish he’d have come to Voices and joined the conversation here. He said , maybe next time. So he’s having his own tiny facebook banter on the subject and of course, as is the nature of Facebook, most folks agree with him. Barry sorta said similar things that I did, but as you know, Facebook is adamant about succinctness. I asked Barry if I could quote him and he said I could. So here is what he said in three separate entries:
I went to school with Barry. He is a great pastor.
Jeff T….really? small world, huh? I was honored when he “friended” me out of the blue. love his spirit. selahV
CB:
You said to L’s:”L’s,
You are right. It is true that you, L’s, are a stranger, not to this world, but to the household of God. The reason you are a stranger is because you only have religion and nothing more.
L’s, religion will: give you a head full of knowledge, a heart full of emptiness” and an eternity full of hell.
On the other hand, I am a sojourner in this land, but not a stranger to the household of God. The reason I am not a stranger to the household of God is:
“But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the Blood of Christ….so then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.”
See L’s, you are a stranger to the household of God because you depend on religion.
I am not a stranger to the household of God because I depend on the Blood of Christ.
That’s the difference between us L’s”
Please and I say please quit judging L’s soul, that is not your job.
Tom, why don’t you try sharing the gospel with her? If she cannot articulate the gospel and doesn’t know what the gospel is she cannot possibly have believed the gospel. CB is obviously concerned about her eternal soul. He is doing exactly what he should be doing—telling her how she can be right with God.
So let me get this straight, you blather endlessly about the demise of the satellite broadcasting statio int he Bold Mission Thrust but you don’t want people to share the gospel with L’s? In that case, I’m glad the Bold MIssion Thrust was done away with–your side wouldn’t have used that satellite to share the gospel anyway.
Tom Parker,
I have not judged the soul of L’s. L’s has over and over again confessed her lostness in comment thread after comment thread.
Tom Parker, do you believe a person can be saved by good works, adhering to Canon Law and dependance on the Seven Sacraments?
If not, then you must also pray earnestly for the soul of L’s, rather than to give her a false hope by valuing a political correctness over the gospel of Jesus.
JoeB:
Why doesn’t Tom or somebody on this board share the Gospel with you.
You need to get Saved, Brother; I mean really.
1) Moderates don’t share the gospel. Their version of the gospel is “Love God, love people, that’s what Jesus said”.
2) Can a person go to heaven without repenting of their sin and trusting Christ alone to save them? For instance, can that muslim gentleman that you bragged about at your heroine’s church in DC go to heaven wthout renouncing his muslim faith and trusting Jesus or is Jesus alreadying saving him and he doesn’t realize it?
Hey Joe: What part of this is Not the Gospel?
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=16587
And have you read the comments at the ABP story on Amy and Mohammed? There are about 8 so far and counting.
Get Low is in a Theatre near you this weekend. Take the family to see it.
Steve,
I have read the comments in the comment thread of the Butler post.
I especially liked this one:
“As our fearless leader Barack Hussein Obama says, “So, I’m rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”
Unfortunately, for a lot of broad-minded Baptists, Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
That means some folks are going to go to hell, unless we share Christ with them and the Holy Spirit brings them to new life in Christ.”
What evidence, CB, Do you see of a New Life in Christ in the witness of Joe Blackmon as you have experienced him here at SBC Voices.
I don’t think Dogma is the key sign, as I read my New Testament of a New Life in Christ.
I disagree with, for instance, lot of the ideology of John Killian of the Maytown Baptist Church. I may be even that his distant relative, Boston Killian, as a former Mayor of Collinsville was an antagonist of my Grandfather when My Grandfather ran as a Lincoln Republican for Supe of Ed for the Dekalb County Schools in the Nineteen teens.
But Killian and I haven’t been able to determine that yet.
Though Killian and I have our differences on the SBC TAkeover, the first 11 chapters of Genesis, George Wallace and about every other social issue I can think of; I have worshipped in Killian’s Church at Maytown, talked with him in his Office, heard him Preach at 2nd Baptist Ft Payne Alabama (thought none of the Brethren called on me to pray (lol)); I have seen evidence of Killian’s salvation and I’m satisfied that he is in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
In a way a great ecumenical point of grace on both our parts.
Killian, by virtue of his invitation to speak at Judson, is already on the Slippery Slope of at some point engaging the thinking of Charles Kimball. Killian and I both have friends at http://www.bcoc.net .
The Bible Says the Wind blows wherever it will, and in the end it is not you or JOe Blackmon’s determination who answers the call on the great gettin up mornin.
When Jim Henry’s daughter sings Kris Kristofferson’s song My God They Killed Him, about Jesus Christ, MLKing, Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi; my point is she doesn’t leave out Mahatma Gandhi.
So even though he didn’t get the Pressler appointment in the lineage of SBC Presidents, nor did Frank Page; you may want to ask Henry and Page about what Kate is gettin at when she sings that song.
And as a postscript. there were other comments atABP in addition to the ones you pointed out.
PS2; Would be good if we could rewind to the moment Pinnock dismissed Marney as a Liberal when Pinnock past his student Jerry Vines and all drinking coffee at NOBTS in 67 or so to see if Pinnock and Marney had a word for us and Amy here. In the meantime maybe Samford will hold a panel, maybe even show Parham’s Common Word documentary this fall and you and Dr.Killian can go deeper there.
If by chance you do, and they call on one of you to pray, do Pray for Joe Blackmon and his eternal destiny.
Steve,
If you will recall, I have not once, but on more than one occasion confirmed my belief that you are a Follower of Christ. In addition, we have discussed why I believe you are a Believer. Yet, I realize we differ on many issues, no doubt.
I also believe there is within you, as within me, a “glimmer of the gremlin” who enjoys raggin’ on hapless victims from time-to-time, in the tradition of former Southern Sages who sat at country stores and drank Cokes, smoked cigars and chewed tobacco and waxed bold to the joy or distain of passing customers who stopped by the wood stove where they [Southern Sages] were holding court.
BTW, I would be honored for you to stop and fellowship among the flock of whom I now serve and after I preach the gospel, I will be more than honored to ask you to pray the benediction.
As to Joe Blackmon; Well, I have read Joe’s comments here and elsewhere and I have read his blog from time-to-time and he has never failed to proclaim the gospel according to the Scripture when it has been his chosen subject. Yes, he is rough as peach seeds traveling through the digestive system of a small puppy, but he is non-compromising of the gospel nonetheless.
I respect Joe’s grit as I do yours. I realize he considers you to be a depraved infidel and you consider him to be an unwashed Cretan, but if I were on my way to a hard gunfight today, I would consider either or both of you to be valuable company.
That is, if I could keep you from shooting one another before we for to our assigned field of battle.
Joe Blackmon:
You’re method of saving people does not work, you have no heart at all. You drive people away with your hot and hateful words.
You love to use the word “moderates” as a condemnatory word, but you are only condemning yourself by the way you present yourself to others.
Joe,
I have a question for you.
Do you have, as Tom Parker has suggested, a “method of saving people”?
That is news to me, for I had the impression that you believed salvation was only in Christ alone.
I don’t know of any “method” of saving anyone other than if they repent of their sins and trust Christ’s to save them based on His death on the cross. Could he prehaps be talking about some sort of evangelistic method?
Prehaps Joe, Tom is talking about the evidence. If I met you on the street and you came across like you come across on this board, thinking I had encountered a Christian would be the furthrest thing on my mind; I’d be thinking more like where did that Son of A, Son of A….I wouldn’t be thinkin you were a Child of God is what I’m trying to say.
Well, considering that you don’t believe the gospel as preached by Christ, Paul, and revealed in the inerrant word of God you’d have about as much of a chance of knowing what a Christian is as I would of betting Jeff Gordon in a race with me running flat footed and him driving.
That should say “beating” not “betting”
Who knows Joe?
You know how Tom gets when he is at his most wretched “Trifling Slankning”, all bowed-up self, slanging snot and yelling at us with pasted comment after pasted comment.
A little paste here, a little paste there. You know how Tom Parker is, Joe. He gets beside himself at times. I think it comes from looking at spread sheets all day long or gradin’ papers and stuff.
Tom Parker,
Do you believe the god of Islam is a false,demonically driven and empowered god?
Or, do you believe as L’s does that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
CB, I think the point is that in the Crucifixion of Jesus, His Death and Resurrection; the way Christ would then have us a view the world as God dying with the Son and then Resurrected in New Form; then maybe the sifnificance you place on the God of Abraham to distinguish you from other faith traditions, may be mistaken, or need some work on it.
Your emphasis is misplaced, possibly. Just workin through this in light of Diamand MacCulloch, the Apostle Paul and his segment on the Masters of Suspicion.
No Steve,
The God of Abraham is the Mighty I Am who was and is before Abraham was. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He is the unchanging, all sovereign Holy God. He is the One God.
The god of Islam is not the God of Abraham, nor is he the Father of The Son who died on the cross, was buried and rose on the third day.
The god of Islam is not the God of the Resurrection. He is not the God who leads us through the valley of death without fear.
The god of Islam leads those who follow through the valley of death into everlasting fear in the fires of hell.
I am sad CB that you didn’t make it out to Samford when Martin Accad as a guest of the Southern Baptist Covention of the State of Alabama was in town to discuss these matters with Tom Corts, Bob Terry, Rick Lance and friends.
Maybe you can see the Common Word with them this fall.
You did see the link to the testimony of Sayyid Syeed a few comments back didn’t you.
In the room is the brother in law of Billy Graham’s daughter, Anne Graham Lotz; her brother in law Denton.
That’s the back of his head in the closing shot of the clip if I am not mistaken.
Do seek out Rick Lance, Brad Creed at Samford and Bob Terry to be sure I didn’t misunderstand Martin Accad when he was the guest of the Alabama Baptist Convention.
And do see the clip and give us your take on it.
CB: The clip for you here; I don’t want you to miss it:
Click and play the clip:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076#clips
Steve,
I am shortly headed out toward Montgomery. One of my sons is playing football there tonight at the Cramton Bowl. If, by chance, I run into Rick Lance, I’ll tell him you said hello.
Steve,
There is no common ground between Muslims and Christians.
Christians are the children of God. Muslims are not the children of God. Muslims are of their father the Devil. There is no commonality between the two for one has not experienced the eternal birth from above.
Yet, there is common ground between all human beings born once on this earth.
That common ground is that all human beings are lost before a just and righteous God.
Therefore, all human beings are condemned already to Hell. But God has demonstrated His own love toward human beings, in that even though we are lost before a just and righteous God, Christ died for us.
Therefore, if any human being does recognize his lostness before a just and righteous God and repents and believes the biblical gospel, those human beings who do so shall be justified by the Blood of Jesus and shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Therefore, there is hope for Muslims just as there is for any human being who will recognize his lost condition before Holy God.
God’s holy prophet, John the Beloved Apostle recorded the exact words of Jesus to all human beings:
“The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.”
Therefore, any Muslim, Jew, Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pagan, or Cretan who will hear the gospel, repent and believe the biblical gospel can have in common a citizenship in the heavenlies purchased by the Blood of Christ.
I think Rick Lance and most of the Humanities Dept at Samford and Judson disagree with you on that CB Scott.
I think we need to find out, don’t you.
If most of the SBC agrees with you on this matter and your rhetoric about it; then I would hope Gary Fenton and Dawson Memorial start sending their Cooperative Program Dollars some where else real soon.
Steve,
If most of the SBC disagrees with me on this it means I have wasted much money sending it to Lottie and Annie.
Frankly, I would doubt Fenton will disagree with me on this. And if he does, something is wrong with him, not me.
What of it do you disagree Steve?
CB; I thought you were going to the Cramden Bowl about two hours ago. I hope your son has a good game tonight.
Hoover is on national tV tomorrow at noon on ESPN vs a team my alma mater, GHS used to School routinely with the great Sidney Rice.
This afternoon I caught a good bit of Nick Saban’s training camp on ESPN, pretty interesting.
Add Nick Saban to the list of folks who I think would resist naming half the world’s believer as something other than the sons of Abraham.
How about the Jews? Are they less than the Sons of God as well? I guess you agree with Bailey Smith God does not hear their prayers either. Do find out at what point Gary Fenton says God is listening to the prayers of others outside your Tradition.
And ask Rick Lance as well.
Joey Kennedy, a Baptist Believer, ought to do a column on you for the Bham News Soon.
Other than that, as always
Peace and Love
Sfox
This post is about a Mosque being built at Ground Zero in NYC.
That Mosque may or may not be built. Who knows?
But this I do know. There is only one way to peace with God. That one way is by faith in the atoning work of God’s Only Son, Jesus Christ.
Therefore, any and all who name the Name of Jesus as Lord must be about the Great Commission and make disciples, teaching those disciples all things as did Jesus teach while on earth and as He has preserved it in His Word.
Jesus declared that he was the only way to everlasting life and that all other ways were the ways that lead to destruction and hell.
So anyone who would teach that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham or:………”there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people” are teaching that which is a lie of Satan and are applauding political correctness as multitudes upon multitudes travel the way of the damned.
CB…amen…preach Jesus, proclaim Jesus…and let the protestors protest as is within their right to protest in America–(unlike in Islamic countries–in those you are stoned, buried in the dirt, and lose appendages, and are imprisoned for daring to believe in the God of Abraham, the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ).
God will build His church, increase His church, and someday He will return to claim His bride. And in the field of decision, Jesus the Christ–the King of Kings, will take out His scythe and gather those who are His from the earth. And the rest will bathe in the blood as deep as a horses shoulders. Until then, we must do all we can to live a life that not only shows the Light and provides the Salt to a darkened world and a tasteless life. We share the Gospel, we sow seeds (Kudzu is great), and then we let our Lord water and bring forth the fruit of His Vine. selahV
Stephen Fox:
You asked CB:”What evidence, CB, Do you see of a New Life in Christ in the witness of Joe Blackmon as you have experienced him here at SBC Voices.”
I also look forward to CB’s answer as it appears to me Joe Blackmon is stuck in the very early books of the OT.
Tom…Joe is incorrigible at times with his snarky remarks. He’s come by my site now and then and knows where I stand on that. However–he holds up Jesus as foremost the keys to heaven’s gates. He professes Christ wherein I rarely see others who have big opinions and big ideas, revealing and hidden agendas on blogsites–profess. While I totally disagree with his imperfections and pontifications, I realize humanity is imperfect (especially in the world’s viewpoint), but we have a perfect Savior who died to make us righteous. Joe is covered in the blood, the same as others whom I disagree with from time to time.
I don’t know Tom…are you covered in the blood? All I’ve ever heard from you is anti-any argument or apologetic I’ve read. Do you know Jesus as Savior and Lord? Do you love him with all your heart? I have admonished dear Joe on many occasion. I keep praying for him. Do you? selahV
Hariette:
Strong phrase, valent, revenant “covered in the Blood”.
Have you seen the Movie There Will Be Blood
A version of your phrase is strong there with the Preacher boy.
Would be an interesting blog if Matt Svodoba or you want to take it up here some time; all the implications and reverberations for an aspect of the SBC story of the last 40 years.
I confess I digress, but thought I would give you a shout out, as Sara Palin says.
Steve,
I saw the movie twice. The concept of Covered in the Blood in the movie fails to convey the same application as it does when SelahV uses it here.
There is a difference when lost movie script writers use the “words of Zion” vs. Born again, washed soundly, covered completely, Blood bought saints of God like SelahV use them!!!
Can I get an A-Men, there Brother?
You can get an Amen to the fact you saw it twice.
I am itchin to say a lot more but fear getting blamed for some serious thread drift.
It is a rich topic; the movie and its implications. Of course I see a lot of portends of Criswell in the movie.
Maybe Matt S will give you a guest blog shot or you and Hariette can duo a blog at this site and we can go from there.
I will give you an Amen for passion for the concept of the Blood of Jesus that washes away the Sins of the World.
As for the Blood of There Will Be Blood, the Movie; that’s where I’m holding out for a Specific discussion.
And for connotations of the word specific, or good use of the term, see the Poet in opening scene of The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford; whose book author,Ron Hansen, I might add,for Christianne, did a wondrous job with stigmata in Mariette in Ecsasty.
Stephen, Stephen, Stephen; would that you spent as much time in the Word as you do these places you seem so desireous of others to travel. I may get the movie if I can find it because CB saw it twice. But my heart grieves that you could not “Amen” that which CB asked you to “amen”.
The blood of Jesus is far more important to any discussion than any other blood on earth. For if it were not for the shedding of Jesus’ blood, we’d have no reason to bother existing. Indeed, if not for the blood–the perfect blood sacrifice–shed as payment for the sin of all humanity–we’d have no reason to cherish being born into this world at all.
His blood cleanses from all unrighteousness. His blood. His sacrifice. His obedience. His love. Wow…what a love our Father in Heaven has for us. Praise His Holy Name! selahV
Hariette, Hariette:
I did Amen, CB. I was trying to make a distinction between the Blood of Jesus and his take on the Movie which I think as a matter of Blog Etiquette and Aesthetic deserves or calls for it’s own topic.
Back to the matter at hand, or the direction it has taken in the last couple days, Amy Butler and her church staffer.
As translated by some here and some of her detractors at ABPnews, I think a grand Baptist Framing is done with the help of another Muslim Sayyid Syeed in this testimony here at the Sacred Ground of Andover Newton which has a strong story for CB and Alabama with one of its presidents Herbert Gezork; but that for another time as well.
Here the Grand tribute to Baptists from a Grand Muslim:
Click and play the clip:
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15076#clips
Stephen, thanks for the “shout out”. Have you ever read the prophet Joel’s words in Joel 3:12–21? Powerful stuff. I think I’ll write on that first.
“Let the nations bestir themselves and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there will I sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the [vintage] havest is ripe; come, get down and tread the grapes, for the winepress is full; the vats overflow, for the wickedness [of the peoples] is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.” Joel 3:12-14
Then if you’re a mind to, flip on over to Mark 4: 29 and read what Jesus Himself said: “But when the grain is ripe and permits, immediately he “sends forth [the reapers] and puts in the sickle, because the harvest stands ready.”
And someone might ask “ready”? “ready” for what?
Then I’d say, I’m glad you asked. Flip on over to Revelation 14:14 and see what the exiled Apostle John said that the Lord said: “Again I looked, and behold, a white cloud One resembling the Son of Man [Jesus the resurrected Son of God that the Jews crucified and laid in the grave] with a crown of gold on His head and a sharp scythe in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple sanctuary, calling with a mighty voice to Him Who was sitting upon the cloud, Put in Your scythe and reap, for the hour has arrived to gather the harvest, for the earth’s crop is fully ripened.
So He Who was sitting upon the cloud swung His scythe on the earth, and the earth’s crop was harvested. Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he also carried a sharp scythe. And another angel came forth from the altar, who has authority and power over fire, and he called with a lud cry to him who had the sharp scythe. Put forth your scythe and reap the fruitage of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are entirely ripe. So the angel swung his scythe on the earth and gathered the vintage from the vines of the earth and cast it into the huge winepress of God’s wrath. And the grapes in the winepress were trodden outside the city, and the blood poured from the winepress, reaching as high as horses’ bridles, for a distance of 1,600 stadia (about 200 miles). Revelation 14: 14-20. (words bracketed are mine for clarification).
Stephen, THAT is a lot of blood. Pity the people [grapes] that do not make the decision to live their lives for Jesus before they stand in the “valley of decision”, huh? selahV
Huh, Huh What?
I think the verse is calling on Joe Blackmon to turn from his Wicked ways, his Constant bullying; to see the truths that God Revealed to Martin King and Oscar Romero and Beyers Naude.
Book of Revelation and the Various Kairos Documents around the World during OUr Lifetime, that’s where the story is Hariette.
The Book of Revelation is Strong Indeed and God Help Us the SBC of Paul Pressler and Jesse Helms stood in silence if not ignorance of the Grand Witness the folks I listed incarnated the screaming imagery of the Book of Revelation.
Tom Parker,
Would you ever be so kind as to answer a question or may two?
Do you believe the god of Islam is a false,demonically driven and empowered god?
Or, do you believe as L’s does that the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
BTW Tom Parker, I consider you to be a “trifling slank” and an eye full of Vick’s Salve that one’s Granny misappropriated during a home remedy for a bad cold on a cold November day.
Tom Parker, if you have trouble understanding that description of you, ask Steve. He has read Ron Rash and Flannery O’ Conner. He can explain it to you as well as I.
CB:
You said to me:”Tom Parker,
Would you ever be so kind as to answer a question or may two?”
I will answer one–I believe John 14:6.
Know please answer the question that Stephen and I asked about Joe Blackmon.
Tom: Just in case the readers who happen across this blogpost do not have a Bible, I’m gonna help them with what John 14:6 means. You see, Muslims are not allowed to read the Bible:
“I am the way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6
Praise the Lord. Hallelujah, Tom! Go tell it on the mountains. Drop this message in every post you log onto. May God add His Spirit to that message and fill it with His Spirit to bring some soul to Him. selahV
See Tom Parker,
SelahV, along with a host of others around here do not worship at the alter of political correctness and the gospel of “nice.”
For us, it is the Blood bought Atonement of Christ or it ain’t nothin’.
Now stand up on your hind legs and tell that to everyone you know, you Trifling Slank, you!!
Selahv:
You said:”Tom…Joe is incorrigible at times with his snarky remarks. He’s come by my site now and then and knows where I stand on that. However–he holds up Jesus as foremost the keys to heaven’s gates. He professes Christ wherein I rarely see others who have big opinions and big ideas, revealing and hidden agendas on blogsites–profess. While I totally disagree with his imperfections and pontifications, I realize humanity is imperfect (especially in the world’s viewpoint), but we have a perfect Savior who died to make us righteous. Joe is covered in the blood, the same as others whom I disagree with from time to time.
I don’t know Tom…are you covered in the blood? All I’ve ever heard from you is anti-any argument or apologetic I’ve read. Do you know Jesus as Savior and Lord? Do you love him with all your heart? I have admonished dear Joe on many occasion. I keep praying for him. Do you? selahV”
How do you know Joe Blackmon is covered in the blood? BTW, thanks for questioning my salvation, Joe Blackmon would be extremly proud of you. I see why you like Joe B.
Tom…I wanted to know, Tom if indeed I needed to share the gospel directly with you is why I asked you those things. Joe has told me he is covered in the blood of Jesus because he (Joe) has given his life to Him. (Although God’s still working hard on Joe; indeed, the Lord has given me a pile of sandpaper to try and help grow Joe. Notice, if you will that he never gets upset with me when I tell him to reel in his words. He does apologize. Then he slips right back into the mode when harrassed or sometimes when he isn’t…). “The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me….” Psalm 138:8 Though I have no control over Joe’s actions or words–unless he comments at my moderated site (Joe will tell you I don’t let the devil get a foothold over there), I can pray for him that the Lord will help him. That’s all I can tell ya, Tom.
I wrote above what I thought of what you believe in John 14:6. Praise the Lord. I will never question your salvation now that I know you believe to know Jesus and profess that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and NO ONE comes to the Father in heaven except through Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. I am so grateful to have read those words from you, Tom.
Your sister, saint Hariette. (a.k.a. selahV)
Tom, To ask a question is not to doubt anyone’s salvation. It is to see where they are spiritually!
Tom Parker,
I am glad to “hear” that. Please share the same with L’s and any other lost soul you might encounter in your journey without compromise.
Now, you trifling slank, if you will take note and pay more attention, you will see that I did answer Steve.
BTW, you did not ask me the same question, you stated to Steve that you “looked forward” to my answer to Steve’s question.
What an interesting morning I have had . . . found out my husband who had symptoms, does not have cancer and am deeply in thanksgiving for this blessing.
So perhaps I can be more patient in responses to people I blog with whom I care about.
My own Church respects the good that it finds in all faith traditions and among all people who reach up towards God. There is much good to be found in others, when we don’t practice the demonization and stereotyping of those who are ‘different’ from our own ways.
I can explain our hope for those of other faiths in this way:
“”Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:2528), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4).”
“[About those of other faiths] Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is considered by the Church to be a preparation for the Gospel and given by Him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
We respect that goodness in them. And we can work with them on areas of mutual concern in the world to assist those in need.
Out of that respect, can come a bond with them that permits us to show forth Christ to them in ALL of our ways.
That is a difference from those who would demonize them, yes.
We believe it more closely follows the way of the Lord.
I suppose the difference in viewpoints, about how to bring Our Lord to people, comes from how we see Lord Christ,
and how we interpret the ways in which He wants us to care for one another. If He is the Model for our witness, we will follow Him with all confidence in His example to us. And we will not fall prey to the stereotyping and demonization of those who are not of our kind.
I think GArry Wills, one of the most sensible practioners of your tradition I’m aware of, Christiane, would applaud your sentiments here.
Hi STEPHEN,
I am not familiar with Gary Wills, but my thoughts are framed by my faith tradition, which is not shared by Joe or C.B. as it is not a part of their own understanding, at this time.
Here are some thoughts I once wrote on Wade’s blog when discussing Islam:
“Here is one perspective that is very different
. I will follow the quote with my own comment:
“”in 1991, choosing to write directly to Muslims, John Paul II gave a fuller reference to this text:
“I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria:
‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself.
You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’ Pope Gregory VII written in 1076 A.D.
“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”
John Paul II
MY COMMENT:
In the midst of all the weakness of our hatred and our fear-filled contempt,
there are times when the Word of the Lord, commanding us to ‘love one another’, begins to burn too brightly in our spirits to be extinguished.
And just for a while, we are made strong enough and fear-less enough to reach out.
Sometimes we do.”
I thought you had made a public declaration you were of the Catholic Faith Tradition.
Maybe I am mistaken but I thought you had said as much.
All progressive Catholics in the US I would hope are aware of Garry Wills and Alice McDermott.
I appreciate John Paul’s good will as stated above. In broad generalities Pope JP was right about Communism in Poland, but wrong about Liberation Theology in Latin America, most eggegiously wrong about Oscar Romero.
He was not infallible.
Stephen, I am a Catholic of the Roman rite.
My father’s family has always been Catholic, in America, before that in Canada, and before that in France.
My grandmother, of blessed memory, was a Southern Baptist.
Terms like ‘progressive’ are relative to specifics, so I don’t generalize my opinion to any one ‘label’.
But I do appreciate the encyclicals of John Paul II and of Benedict XVI on social issues tremendously. Have you read any excerpts from them? I think you also would find something in them of meaning to you, from what you have referenced on this blog.
Christiane: I imagine you and some of your extended family will find the following link most interesting.
If I were younger I might wade into some of the Pope’s encyclicals, but as time is short, honestly, keeping track with Wills and McDermott and occasionally what the Kennedy children are saying about the faith–one of Joe’s Daughters had a fascinating book about reform in the church a couple years ago–is about as far as I will go.
Most fascinating post at RD just a couple days ago:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/2731/evangelicals_%E2%80%98crossing_the_tiber%E2%80%99_to_catholicism/
Christianne, PTL for the good news on your husband.
Since you are in a good mood, I have to tell you something rather funny that happened today. I went to check my stats on my blog and had four hits from Huffington Post. Is that not funny? So I clicked on their link to see what brought them to me. And I knew I had to confess I’d gone to Huffington since I told you the other day that I didn’t do Huffington…ever.
Have a blessed nite. selahV
Thank you, Selah, I am most grateful to God for the good news.
I didn’t realize that Ariana Huffington was such a controversial figure. Oh well . . . There is so much polarization now. I have never seen this bad, not even during the sixties at the time of the Viet Nam War.
I have prayed for your family this week at this time of remembrance. My thoughts are with you and with them.
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5641/9/
Stephen, I think you will like this article.
CB and Bess, I am wondering how many trial lawyers you know who are concerned with 1 Tim 3?
CB, If Gaines is a believer in inerrancy then why not practice what scripture teaches when you find you have a pedophile minister on staff?
Matt,
You are late to the party on the Butler article. Feel free to catch up. It may be enlightening to you.
Here is a question for you. Do you believe the god of Islam is the God of Abraham?
BTW, I answered your question about Gaines on the abused children post. If you missed my answer, go back and read it in the comment thread there.
Matt, please take the “pedophile minister” references back to the other post on abusing children or something. This post is not about that issue. It’s already taken enough taken enough twists and turns to be renamed the Kudzu post of Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. Please…don’t drop anymore odd seeds into this stream. Okay?
I’m not mad, just tired of chasing sharks and barracuda in a salmon stream. Okay? 
selahV
Matt: I’ve been making several references to this very link the last couple days here at the Voices; Amy Butler’s story on her staffer at Calvary in DC
Hariette = Just be happy people have decided to comment on your post, “Okay”; instead of telling them what to say, “Okay”.
Jack and Hariette:
Jack, you may want to click over to Hariette’s blog and comment on her Glenn Beck Honor Ralley thoughts.
Will be interested to see what you say there.
I have a comment awaiting moderation there where I recommend she mediate her thoughts by exploring Religion Dispatches reservations about Beck.
Stephen, I have a feeling that you might have seen this,
where Colbert exposes Glenn Beck’s ’9-12 project’ by highlighting comments Glenn Beck made on September 9, 2005:
“This is horrible to say, and I wonder if I’m alone in this,” Beck said on his radio program that day, “you know it took me about a year to start hating the 9/11 victims’ families? I don’t hate all of them. I hate probably about 10 of them. But when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I’m just like, ‘Oh, shut up!’ I’m so sick of them because they’re always complaining. And we did our best for them.”
“The 9-12 project is not for families directly affected by 9/11, just people building their careers on it,” Colbert said.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/01/stephen-colbert-rips-apar_n_181673.html
I am clearly not a fan of Glenn Beck ‘in action’.
Christiane, I’m gonna take the liberty of copy and pasting your “off topic” comment here, into my site and giving you my response there.
selahV
Selah, if you wish to do that, I have no objection to it.
I am not a fan of Glenn Beck but I know that he does have many supporters, for many different reasons, not all of them good ones, I’m afraid.
My opinion is my own.
Selah, as regards ‘off-topic’, I am not so sure about that.
The ‘topic’ of the mosque has a definite connection to the reaction of some to 9/11 events.
We all ‘re-acted’.
Then we all re-act to one another’s reactions.
I do see a connection, and so, I must disagree respectfully about ‘off-topic’. A lot of people ‘took advantage’ of the events of 9/11. It’s still happening. There is a ‘market’ for those who will feed the darker angels of our nature.
you L’s,
I know you have a husband and at least one son, so let me ask you a question; How would you “react” if someone took your husband and son out and french-fried them in jet fuel?
Christianne–fine, have at it. It will probably do alot for the point and focus of my post about Christians speaking their minds without inciting the ire of Muslims who might pop in and read this post. Yeah…go for it. selahV
Stephen, How much do I owe you for your personal representation of my writing? You are a funny bird, my Stephen. Your comment was approved within seconds after you posted it. I happened to be at my computer, copy-editing a manuscript. Come back by and see what I wrote to you.
selahV
Christianne, point well taken. Many of Christ’s followers and fans did not follow for all the right reasons either.
My opinion is my own, also. I make up my mind according to my own reasoning, rationale and discernment from the Word of God, and His Holy Spirit. catcha later…selahV
Fair enough, I can certainly respect that.
jack,
Why don’t you go back to defending pedophiles as innocent victims who need to be helped with their awful problem since it’s not really their fault and lay of selahV.
Jack, LOL…that’s funny. Being “happy” with comments makes little sense when comments produce divisiveness–rather than understanding or anything recognizable as edification.
It’s not about me telling them “what to say”, my friend, but what “not to say” in a comment stream that has nothing to do with the post I authored above. Soon I plan to write a post at Voices entitled, OPEN SEASON AT THE POTLUCK BAPTIST BUFFET.
That way folks can banter on and on ad nauseum at about anything their little ol’ hearts desire. “Okay?”
selahV
Sounds great. Now I’d like to know where your blog is on Glen Beck, Mormon, Master Showman, NRA member and money changer. Oh’ I’m an NRA member and I think they made a mistake associating with this idiot.
Jack, lol. Just click on my name above this comment. It will take you to my site. I didn’t describe him quite the way you have, so you may miss the connection in the title. hariette petersen (a.k.a. selahV Today)
I went there and enjoyed the blog but I try not to argue the spirituality involved in any subject as a person is entitled to believe what he wants; and I don’t have the strength now to banter with you. Probably another time when the weather gets worse . Plus Blackmon wants to defend your honor like your not able “Okay”. LOL
Jack, you big woose! ha ha . Sometimes I need a bunch a guys to watch my back for me. I’m an old lady, after all. And I have a hard time reaching for my can, sometimes.
selahV
“can” should be cane. ROFLOL.
“Henrietta” – Blackmon only thinks he’s a “bunch” of guys. Matt Svaboda would have cut you or me off for that “woose” remark but I really understand what you mean. My son just left a while ago as he will give up his pulpit tomorrow for a few reasons but mostly because he refuses to allow bigoted, “club” run people to take control of the scripture and the pulpit He and I have nerves we haven’t come close to using yet. At the moment Glen Beck and this stupid mosque are doing better than he is; but this is not the end of the story.
Jack, ah…”Henrietta”…that was the mis-nomer my school teachers always called me when calling the roll in the morning. And unless, you meant to be facetious, I would guess you didn’t mean to re-name me. This is the very reason I use the moniker SelahV when blogging. Few folks get my name, Hariette, right. Even my new-found buddy, Stephen, who spelled it correctly–failed to spell my last name correctly when he placed my blogsite on Forum-Baptist Life today so folks could all come over and stick a log on the fire. (Stephen, how is google gonna find me if you keep spelling my name wrong?
)
You could be right about the “woose” comment, Jack…if it hadn’t been offered with complete endearment of it’s use. I figured a reasonable man, without any preconceived ire towards me (and one who has probably already realized I have none toward him), would catch my drift.
Oh, but Joe being many men–I have lots of honorable men who stand and protect my flank when it is necessary. Joe and I just recently met–but I do appreciate his support–even if he has a rather provocative way of saying stuff. He is sometimes blunt and other times very sensitive to another’s feelings (which is the opposite) of being blunt. I’ll take the shields from whomever offer them to me. God knows I need someone in this sea of sharks, tiger-fish, and dolphins.
Sorry to hear of your son’s battle. But may God be glorified and others edified with your desire to bring a word of truth to the masses. selahV
“you L’s,
I know you have a husband and at least one son, so let me ask you a question; How would you “react” if someone took your husband and son out and french-fried them in jet fuel?”
I would feel as badly as the families of these people did, C.B.:
Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:
Note: This list is as yet incomplete. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims’ ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.
Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.’s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid
I hope that answers your question, C.B.
C.B. if you want to hate evil, I could understand that.
But if you are into ‘something else’ that involves stereotyping and intolerance, as a reaction to terrorism,
my religion teaches that those things can lead to evil.
I don’t expect you to agree with that, but I would like for you to think about it.
L’s,
It has nothing to do with hate, or intolerance or stereotyping. I has to do with being truthful as to how things really are. It does answer a question L’s, but not the question you would desire.
The list of names simply tells the truth about Islam.
Islamic terrorists killed all of those people and more. They kill people with similar names every day all over the world.
They do it in the name of their god. Islam is a cruel and violent religion. In every nation on earth where Islam id dominant, Christians are openly and legally persecuted. You cannot deny that L’s. It is fact. There are 55 predominately Muslim nations on this planet today. Without exception, in each and every one of those nations, people with names similar to the ones you listed are persecuted and killed in the name of the Islamic god every day.
If Islam is so peaceful, why is not there even one, “just one” Muslim country that will allow freedom of religion and speech?
Intelligence reports reveal (some of it Navy Intelligence L’s. Your husband was Navy right?) that up to 20% of the followers of Islam are of such a radical nature that they are fulling willing to strap on a bomb to their bodies (or those of their children) and give up their own lives in order to kill Christians and Jews. L’s 20% represents 300,000,000 Muslims who hate you and me enough to sacrifice their own lives to take ours.
No L’s, it is not hate that causes me to say these things. It is just cold hard truth. L’s the only thing that will change those trapped by Satan is the same thing that will free you from the trap of religion of which Satan has you chained like a blind beggar.
The only hope for the follower of Islam is the same hope you have, the biblical gospel.
But don’t think for one minute the god of Islam is the God of the Jews and Christians. That is just not the case.
cb,
You and I are just ignorant, redneck fundy’s. L’s is trying to help us see the truth. God is to merciful and kind to send any sincere soul to hell–well, as long as they’re not conservative and believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, then they’re of the devil for sure. (/sarcasm)
Joe,
It is not we, my brother, who are of the ignorant when we trust Christ alone.
To trust the Sacraments, to trust Canon Law, to trust the god of Islam, to trust the rudiments of man is ignorance.
But to trust Christ alone is not ignorance. To trust Christ alone is to be saved unto the uttermost and to be seated in the heavenlies.
I know. I was being sarcastic. That’s why I typed (/sarcasm) so I could turn the sarcasm off.
Evensong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3gfIJeNojo
Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found; Brought here together by Christ’s love, by love are we thus bound.
With grateful joy and holy fear God’s charity we learn; Let us with heart and mind and soul now love God in return.
Forgive we now each other’s faults as we our faults confess; And let us love each other well in Christian holiness.
Let strife among us be unknown, let all contention cease; Be God’s the glory that we seek, be ours God’s holy peace.
Let us recall that in our midst dwells God’s begotten Son; As members of his body joined, we are in Christ made one.
No race or creed can love exclude, if honored be God’s name; Our family embraces all whose Father is the same.
L’s,
God is not the Father of all. All were created in His image, for only God can create, but not all are His children.
The children of God are “only” those of whom are washed in the Blood of the Lamb. If a person is not born of God from above, that person remains the child of Satan, damned to everlasting Hell, unless, by God’s grace, they, through repentance and faith in the biblical gospel are saved from the parentage of the Devil unto the newness of life as children within the household of God.
CB, I still don’t know where that leaves Criswell, Pressler and Jesse Helms.
We have their statement of faith, and then we have evidences of intentional deceit; and if not that then places where they clearly missed the point, or acted as if their application of the Gospel was the perfection for all time; inerrancy as an example, and in Helms case, how he messed up on Oscar Romero and never confessed; nor did he repent for his “hands” ad that defeated Harvey Gannt; the first black president of Student Government at Clemson.
So there are other Christians whose judgment on these matters are different from yours.
I think you and Mohler are mistaken. My conviction and understanding has convinced me yours is a lesser insight, grasp of New Testament Truth.
As a short list I offer:
Richard Marius.
Martin Accad.
Barbara Brown Taylor
Anne Graham Lotz Brother in Law, Denton Lotz
Charles Kimball
Randall Balmer
Mark Noll
Underwood, the President of Mercer
Wayne Flynt
Stephen Black
Marney
Steve,
In what could I possibly wrong here Steve?
Forget Criswell and Pressler and all the others you mention and answer this question.
Will God the Father consider the adherents to Islam as saved to a sufficient degree as to stand blamelessly before Him in the judgement in equality with those of whom Christ presents as washed in His Blood?
Hi C.B.
I was trying to sort out what on Earth you were talking about when you spoke of “the parentage of the Devil” and I FOUND A REFERENCE. It took a while, believe me.
It showed up in something called the ‘Two-Seed Theory” that was developed among some Baptists during something called ‘The Great Awakening’ and it was a pet teaching of a Baptist called Brother Daniel Parker.
This is what I found:
“It appears that during this time, Brother Daniel Parker was also formulating views on God and man that he would first release in his Views on the Two Seeds (1826). Parker taught that all persons are either of the “good seed” of God or of the “bad seed” of Satan.
Many consider his theory a type of Manichaeism.”
C.B., my Church rejected Manichaeism in the early centuries of Christianity, as a heresy.
L’s, Can you deny any of the above as true? No. You tend to ignore reality, clinging to a religion of mysticism that is as damning to the soul as Islam itself.
I shared this with you earlier:
Religion will get you: A head full of knowledge, A heart full of nothing and an eternity full of Hell.
Only those who have repented of sin and believed the biblical gospel will see the face of Christ in His radiant glory and be known as the children of God.
Hi C.B.
I was trying to sort out what on Earth you were talking about when you spoke of “the parentage of the Devil” and I FOUND