NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)–Three staff members of Southern Baptist Convention entities are among eight leaders of a new leadership school being launched by Mars Hill Church, the Seattle, Wash., mega-church co-led by Mark Driscoll.
Bruce Ware, Gregg Allison and Ed Stetzer will join Driscoll, John Piper and Sam Storms on the faculty of the Resurgence Training Center, a 36-hour graduate program in leadership. The faculty also includes executive director Rick Melson and Bill Clem, a leadership coach with the Acts 29 Network. The new school, according to the Mars Hill website, is intended to develop pastoral leaders for 100 new Mars Hill campuses and 1,000 churches started in partnership with the Acts 29 church planting network, which is exclusively Calvinistic.
When I read this article I say, “Praise God.” It is always a positive thing when Gospel-centered, godly men who love the church get together in order to train theologically-driven, mission minded pastors. Yet, some people will blast this. Lord, have mercy…. And you use the new training center to advance your glorious Kingdom.
There is no reason for Southern Baptists to not like this. This doesnt take away from what the SBC is doing, at all. These men can have two responsibilities without making one suffer. If you are a non-calvinist, that is great. Get trained somewhere that isn’t calvinistic. It shouldnt bother a noncalvinist that Calvinistic training centers exist. I will just say exactly what I mean; anyone who has a problem with this in any way is somewhat pathetic. I dont care that there are SBC leaders that hold only Non-calvinistic conferences, etc. Non-calvinists shouldnt care that some SBC leaders are Calvinistic and are willing to partner with non-SBC people in order to train Calvinistic pastors.
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Evidently, from discussions I read over at our Baptist Identity friends’ blog, not everyone shares your enthusiasm.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Its a Miracle!! =-.
You’re right and it is pathetic.
It may just be me, but I thought that the BP article was written with a sneer.
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..Rev. Ike goes to his reward =-.
I picked up the sneer as well, again, pathetic.
I did not pick up the sneer. Actually, I thought it was a pretty balanced reporting of events that have happened. It is true that Driscoll is hated by a lot of Baptists and that Acts 29 is viewed by many of the same crowd with great ire. That required BP to include that.
Unfortunately, for accurate reporting about SBC events, you usually have to go to ABP (a negative perspective, often). So, all in all, I thought the BP, which is now not so much a press organization but a public relations arm of the SBC, did a pretty good job at this.
Maybe I have come to have “lowered expectations.”
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Its a Miracle!! =-.
What a great day in the kingdom of our Lord! Let the B.I. hounds howl, this is great news… and a great display of the type of kingdom advancing cooperation that we need to see a lot more of in the SBC.
Grace Always,
.-= Greg Alford´s last blog ..Is NAMB a "Relic of the Past"? =-.
Wow, that’s all…just wow. The comments in this thread..along with the thread itself is so “Christlike.” Are they not??????? This post and the comments in this thread is a lot of what’s wrong in the Church today.
I’m sorry, but the attitude’s displayed here really dont show the spirit of Christ at all.
David
Really David? What is it that you have a problem with? Me pointing out the pathetic nature of people fussing over SBC Calvinists cooperating with Calvinistic networks in order to train pastors and plant churches? If that is what you find “unchristlike” then I should just say thanks because there is nothing unchristlike about it.
Excuse us for getting tired of the BI people who continue to belly ache at the name of Driscoll, Acts 29, etc… What is unchristlike is their belly-aching.
Acts 29 can do whatever they like. And, more power to them, Brother. I’m not fighting against Acts 29. I do not want the SBC to partner with Acts 29, nor join with them…due to their exclusive qualifications that would exclude 95% of the Ministers in the SBC. I think that they also have other issues that are troubling as well. But, I am not fighting against Acts 29.
But, for you to call people pathetic if they may have questions about SB leaders going to training seminars at Mars Hill, and for others to say that there was a “sneer” in the article about it, and for you and Dave to say that the BI guys were speaking against it. In fact, the only thing at SBC Today that I saw that mentioned this seminar thing, was when Tim Rogers was trying to show Bill how my connecting of the dots was not so far fetched. I was trying to help Bill see why we’re concerned that some in the SBC would want the SBC to join with groups like Acts 29. Bill asked that I might connect the dots for him, because he thought I was being far fetched. I showed him. And, Tim Rogers then brought in this fact that a Lifeway leader, and a SB seminary prof. were going out to Driscoll’s Church for this seminar. And, somehow Dave and you made this into a “BI guys dont like them going to participate in this seminar.”
Anyway, Matt, when people disagree with you, that does not make them pathetic and evil….it just might mean that they dont agree with you. God bless you, Brother.
David
David: The dots still aren’t connecting for me, and Tim hasn’t answered my last question, at least yet. Are any of these folks on the GCR committee? Who is it, specifically, on the GCR committee who you think is going to introduce the idea of an official SBC church planting partnership with ACTS 29, and why do you think they might do it?
Your objection to ACTS 29 doctrine and covenant, I understand. Your unwillingness to partner with them personally, I understand. Your fear that the GCR work is going to result in an official SBC-ACTS 29 partnership, I still fail to understand.
David, It’s hard for me to see why you would be upset with what I said. I merely observed that the discussion at another site did not share Matt’s enthusiasm for the Acts 29 network.
What part of that is a problem?
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..WOW! Words of Wisdom from "Between the Times" =-.
David, your tone in the comment I’m replying to seems pretty sarcastic. And if it’s not, it just goes to show how easy it is for me to misinterpret your tone (and how easy it is for you to misinterpret someone else’s).
And on the subject of Christlikeness, Jesus wasn’t always real nice to everyone.
.-= Barry Wallace´s last blog ..A Southern Baptist elder’s encounter with demons… =-.
I can’t imagine that the SBC has a tent large enough for someone who has such a foul spirit. Yes, I’ve heard Driscoll’s attempt at placation, but I’m not convinced that he is God’s answer to the ills some perceive so trouble the SBC. I’ll wait until Acts 29 (a very telling label in regard to one’s biblical view I think). He’s not only going to improve the SBC, he’s going to fix the Bible. Just not a good fit I think. Though, I have no problem with Stetzer and others resigning to go work with Driscoll. Driscoll is probably as nice a guy as the next, but has serious flaws in his missiology in my view — and it is just my view.
My thought got away from me: “I’ll wait until Acts 29 has a century and half plus of mission work before I jump on board.”
To reiterate: I don’t know Driscoll, I only know his sermons and I am not impressed. This is not a personal attack on him, just his teaching.
I’m a student at Re:Train right now, taking a break from working on my first presentation. It’s been somewhat disheartening to see the articles over the past few days that seem to delight in attacking brothers in Christ. I’ve been blown away here by the singular focus of the leadership of Mars Hill and Re:Train to make sure it always stays “All About Jesus”. The Holy Spirit has already convicted me mightily about both my fear of man here and my willingness to make an idol of this opportunity.
Before anyone posts another comment, whether good or bad, could you please lift up all our brothers in Christ that are taking time this week to study and learn, be challenged and be connected? We desire nothing more than to see Jesus made much of.
In Christ
Chris
.-= Chris Blackstone´s last blog ..working on my presentation for… =-.
I think this is a great development. I think actions like this will help the SBC to stay a major player in the US church scene.
The responses from the BI crowd and even the BP is what is driving people away from the SBC. I love the irony within the SBC….here we are looking at a resurgence of the Great Commission and yet all some can do is keep bringing up us partnering with the evil Calvinists….really….let go of it and refocus on the task at hand. And the classic irony of saying that we are Kingdom players but what that really means is that we only play with those who sign off on the BFM.
Quick question….does Acts 29 keep burning through leadership? Does Acts 29 have closed door meetings where they oust leadership and then fail to say why? Oh that’s not Acts 29…thats us!
.-= Grady Bauer´s last blog ..Why I don’t fast during Ramadan =-.
Recently, I had a discussion with a leader of one of our SBC institutions in which I suggested that we needed a course in Sovereign Grace Evangelism. The literature for such effort is abundant through out history. Leadership training will certainly be helpful, if it is biblically faithful.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Matt – I appreciate you saying what you feel but I think you chose your words poorly to call people pathetic who might have a problem with the school. Many SBC’ers choose to reserve judgement on something until they’ve had a longer period of chance to review the issue. They do it with much prayer and research. Not everyone enthusiastically joins in on something new and fresh, even when it seems like a good thing on the surface. That is actually a good thing, and biblical. You just seem very defensive of you own opinion and by being defensive you come off harsh.
Not everyone in the SBC is a Calvinist, at least not a 5-pointer, to which many Calvinists would say means you’re no Calvinist at all. Non-calvinists love Jesus with all their heart and want to share His Truth, too. I know you know that… but it just felt like it needed to be repeated.
In Christ,
Sallie
.-= Sallie´s last blog ..Sneaking in Learning Through Historical Fiction =-.
Sallie,
I am not calling people who are as enthusiastic about the new training program as I am. I understand that not even jumps on board with every new thing, no matter how good it might seem. What I am calling pathetic is the groups within the SBC that have a problem with this merely because there are paid SBC staff that have joined MARK DRISCOLL of all people, to train pastors and plant churches. What is pathetic is that people get offended just because some people in the SBC see Acts 29 as a good resource and partner for church planting. If they dont like Acts 29, it is fine, but they shouldnt get upset just because others do.
Matt,
You and whoever else can see Acts 29 as a good resource for church planting all you want…as far as I’m concerned. I’m not upset that you, or Ed, or anyone else wants to go teach at thier seminar. What I dont like, and what others arent too crazy about, is the possibility of the SBC partnering with Acts 29, or joining with them.
Does that make it clearer, Matt? Does my comment here make me pathetic with evil, sneering motives?
David
As long as you dont have a problem with people in the SBC cooperating and joining Acts 29 for church planting and training pastors then we have no problem.
007:
You said–”I’m not fighting against Acts 29. I do not want the SBC to partner with Acts 29, nor join with them…due to their exclusive qualifications that would exclude 95% of the Ministers in the SBC. ”
What are these qualifications that would exclude 95% of the ministers in the SBC?
Tom,
Acts 29 requires the Church planters that they support to be reformed in theology, and to believe in Elder ruled Churches.
David
I don’t think the guys at the other site should have made such a fuss against what they think just might happen. I don’t think we here should be anticipating their objection to this news a few SBC folks working with Mars Hill.
I see no reason to be upset. I don’t see anyone getting upset when SBC folks work with/cooperate with other non-SBCer’s that I’ve documented in the past.
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Writing Opportunity with Examiner.com =-.
David:
You said–”Acts 29 requires the Church planters that they support to be reformed in theology, and to believe in Elder ruled Churches.”
Thanks.
Sincere question–what does it mean that they are reformed in theology? Could you give me a couple of examples? My thanks in advance.
Tom,
They mean by reformed that you must be a five point Calvinist.
David
David: Can you provide a link that says reformed = 5 pt. Calvinism? I went over the Acts 29 site and didn’t see that, but I might have missed it.
Southern Baptists have joined with others in partnering on things in the past, so why not Acts 29. Besides one fellow said he was appointed by them and was never ask about whether he was reformed or not (and he was not a 5 pointer). The real liberals on this issue were the 5-pointers anyway as in 1787 they decided that the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man would be no bar to communion. That was in VA, and it was done to facilitate union among the Separate and Regular Baptists. The Separates had a few who had taken Hebs.2:9 as inclusive, so the Regulars and other Separates who were Particular Baptists decided to allow this difference as those who held to it had suffered with them in the great struggle to gain religious liberty. As to the original Separate Baptists, they were like Stearns and Marshall, a bunch of Puritans and Pilgrims. Look at Isaac Backus and the writings of John Leland to grasp the two positions within the Separates. The Regulars were fixed on the issue of Particular Redemption. True liberalism comes out of the Sovereign Grace source of Baptists. The General Baptists who believed Christ died for everyone were not very evangelistic in contrast to the Particulars and Separates. And it Should be noted that Sandy Creek Baptists presented their minutes to the Philadelphia Assn, and they were accepted. One of the Separate Baptist Churches where I was a member for a few years had it in their abstract of principles about Christ dying for the church, not a thing about Him dyinG for the world. AND FROM THAT CHURCH CAME THE FIRST MISSIONARY TO CHINA, MATTHEW T. YATES. THE CHURCH WAS ORGANIZED IN 1814, TWO YRS, BEFORE LUTHER RICE CAME TO THE ASSN AND LED THEM IN ADOPTING THE SANDY CREEK CONFESSION OF FAITH. THAT CONFESSION IS CLEARLY SOVEREIGN GRACE OR, IF YOU LIKE THE TERM (AND I PREFER THE FIRST ONE), CALVINISTIC. THESE MISSIONARY SEPARATE AND REGULAR BAPTISTS WENT OUT TO WIN THE WORLD WITH THE TRUTHS OF UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, IRRESISTIBLE GRACE, AND PARTICULAR REDEMPTION. IF THERE IS ANY DOUBT ABOUT WHERE THEY STOOD, I CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO DR. J.P. BOYCE’S OBIT FOR DR. BASIL MANLY, SR., WHERE HE SAID OF THE LATTER THAT, “HE WAS A DECIDED CALVINIST.” BY THE WAY, WHY IS IT THAT NO ONE MAKES REFERENCE TO DR. BOYCE’S ABSTRACT OF SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY WHICH IS CLEARLY SOVEREIGN GRACE OR CALVINISTIC? AND WHY IS IT THAT NO ONE MAKES REFERENCE TO THE FACT THAT DR. BOYCE LITERALLY CARRIED SOUTHERN THROUGH THE TOUGH TIMES FINANCIALLY AFTER THE CIVIL WAR? HE WAS INDEPENDENTLY WEALTHY AND THIS MAN WHO HAD GOTTEN HIS SOVEREIGN GRACE FROM THE SWEET-SPIRITED BASIL MANLY, SR.,AND WHO HAD STUDIED UNDER CHARLES HODGE AT PRINCETON WHO PUBLISHED J.L. DAGG’S MANUAL OF THEOLOGY, KEPT THE SEMINARY GOING WITH HIS OWN WEALTH? DR. EDWARD PRUDEN WHO WAS PRESIDNT TRUMAN’S PASTOR HAD BOYCE’S DAUGHTERS IN HIS CHURCH IN D.C. AND SAID HE ENCOURAGED THEM TO GIVE THE SILVER TEA SERVING SET TO SOUTHERN. I HAVE NO TROUBLE WITH PEOPLE HAVIN THEIR OWN THEOLOGICAL PREFERENCES AS I HAVE ENOUGH CONFIDENCE IN WHAT I KNOW BAPTISTS BELIEVE AND HOW IT PRODUCES LIBERTY AND FREEDOM AND WINS THE DAY BY THAT VERY METHOD WHICH ALLOWS FOR HONEST, EARNEST, OBJECTIVE EXAMINATION OF THE EVIDENCE.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
While I don’t know much about Acts 29 or Driscoll, I do trust Ware and Allison to make wise decisions on with whom they would partner. Matt, I enjoy reading your blog regularly but would caution on some of the tone of the posts on this site. Not yours simply but we must be careful in how we speak of those who do not agree with us. There are a few people who post here who regularly sound like jerks (I say that, I pray, as a recovering jerk). I was convicted recently, again by Russell Moores sermon of which I don’t remember the title….I know it had the words Wal Mart in it. You can find it on Denny Burks blog. It had to do with our view of others, inside and outside the church. Check it out. Grace and Peace Out
wow, what a promising endeavor! i’ve been waiting & praying to see more partnerships like this one, as well as more vision for missions & church planting & more foresight in ministerial preparation for such endeavors. given the complex makeup of north american societies (even at specific locations, where demographics can be pretty wide), creating a broader instructional & training base is going to continue to be an important adaptation. the trick will always be deciding where to draw the line – when do we say this person, respectfully, is too out of bounds to be a part this? still, this is a nice mix of conservative evangelicals. kudos to the people involved
.-= mike f´s last blog ..excavation of sidon sheds light on canaanite culture =-.
Southern Baptist were Sovereign Grace believers from the getgo, and, for the most part 5-pointers in their origins. Except for allowing for preaching that Christ tasted death for every man, they were fairly commited to the so-called calvinistic view point as Boyce and Manly and Johnson and Mercer and Furman and Broadus and a multitude of others that could be cited. They even wrote Sovereign Grace works that were published by Southern Baptist agencies. Where do some of these folks come from who ignore the facts of the origins while peddling their view that we are a bunch of Aminians practically like the General Baptists/ The latter are not bad folks; they just simply were not very evangelistic or missionary-minded back in the 1700s in America orEngland. the folks who were were the so-called calvinists. Even Adnrew Fuller was a 5-pointer and he would roll over in his grave to see how some rode his views off as a justification for a form of Arminianism.
In any case the real issue is the Third Great Awakening. Since we know the theology of the First & Second Great Awakenings and of the origins of the Great Century of Missions, it follows that this resurgence of the founders’ views (note founders as not to e too confused with Founders of today who are trying to get back to the starters, but still have some going to do) might well be the prelude to that world- wide which so many have been praying for these many years. God grat that it might be so is my prayer.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
Following several blogs over the last few days, I wonder if people share their faith with as much passion as they discuss it. I wonder if those who blog daily talk to the lost daily. I will admit that it is easier to debate theology than to do missions.
I.Wonder: Frankly I get tired of that type of comment. It’s judgmental and not the least bit accurate. It’s tiresome.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..I Disagree With John Piper Concerning The Tornado That Struck Minneapolis =-.
Though some might be surprised… I am with Debbie!
Any one who cares for the gloy of the Lord Jesus Christ and the good of souls around him or her will seek to be faithful to those with whom the Lord brings them in contact. I ask God to show me the way, to help me find a way open to bear witness. Our son, a pastor, was setting in a restaurant that seated people on a need basis, and they seated a fellow and his wife at the same table. The fellow was a retired prof. who had taught where I had tasught and who had his doctorate from the school where I had my master’s in history. When he found out that he was sitting with a Southern Baptistpeacher and hs wife, he said, “And I guess you are going to try and win us to Christ (or something to that effect.).” Our son grinned and said, politely, “what else would you expect?” and proceeded to witness to the man who was a Jew who had escaped from Germany (if memory serves correctly). God grant that we shall care and want to win souls like Whitefield and Wesley, like John Gano and Benjamin Randall, and a whole host of others. Even like the Waldensians in the time of the inquisition who used an evangelistic approach while selling jewels which involved, “A Pearl of Great Price.” The import of that is obvious.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
@ i.wonder
with all do respect, the church and those who care about it should not be ashamed about discussing or even debating theological issues. after all, missions is an orthopraxy (right practice) only when based on orthodoxy (right believe, i.e. right theology). if you don’t believe that, just look at mainline liberal churches in america who equate the gospel with food for the poor and missions with social support of the needy (and i think the church should be involved in that discussion, but those things are not evangelism, i.e. the proclamation of the gospel).
just some thoughts
mf
.-= mike f´s last blog ..call for septuagint suggestions =-.
There are those who would be just thrilled to death if every Calvinist were forced out of the SBC (regardless of whether they’ll admit it), yet have a problem with a group being exclusively “reformed.” What’s wrong with this picture? The reason people don’t like ACTS 29 is the same reason they don’t like Founder’s. They’re Calvinist. Complain about the cussing and rough edges all you want, but at the end of the day, it’s all about those terrifying doctrines of grace.
.-= Darby Livingston´s last blog ..Is Divorce a Bigger Sin Than Adultery? =-.
And the terrifying prospect of … Ahhhhh! … a plurality of elders instead of one CEO fighting with a bunch of deacons who want to be elders.
.-= Darby Livingston´s last blog ..Is Divorce a Bigger Sin Than Adultery? =-.
wow, you should just rename this site “arminians vs. calvinists.” isn’t that what EvErY post turns into?
Mike, and who seems more concerned about that topic?
what do you mean and to whom are referring? sorry, i don’t always read between the lines very well.
.-= mike f´s last blog ..canaanite fortification discovered in jerusalem? =-.
Personally, I don’t wish to run every Arminian out of the Convention. In fact, if every one would take a look at Church History, they would find that Arminians have won people who turned out to be Calvinists, and Calvinists won people who turned out to be Arminian. Spurgeon was won by a Methodist exhorter, and enjamin Radall was won due to the death of George Whitefield, and Randall who had planned to hear him in the hopes of being converted asked, “Who will tell about salvation now or how to be saved now?”(I am not sure now just how he put it). In any case, the death of Whitefield motivated him to seek salvation which he did. Randall founded the Free Will Baptists in New England. Finney attended a Presbyterian Church, when he was converted. While he was very Arminian, he won A.H. Strong to Christ who noted in his theology that he held to unconditional election and irresistible grace or effectual calling. God blessed Sovereign Grace theology in the American Colonies to produce the First Great Awakening and again in the Second Great Awakening and in the origins of missions. Dr. Akin has noted the fact that so many of the leaders in the origins of the missionary movement were 5 point calvinists. Let us grant to others what we desire for ourselves, the right to think our way through the biblical facts and to arrive at beliefs that we believe best accord with those facts. I don’t want anyone manipulated into believing what I believe. I want them to come to such beliefs from a full persuasion of the truth. God only works in that way, and He demands of us that we have nothing to do with the hidden ways of darkness and secrecy, meaning, I think, deceitful ways. God grant us a free and open spirit to seek and find the truth of His written word.
.-= Dr. James Willingham´s last blog ..The Climax of the Reformation =-.
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