Jared Moore has asked us to remove his posts. There are a handful, like this article, which we’ve turned into a summary and left the comments section posted.
Responding to Dave Miller’s Article, “God told me that the Bible does NOT teach Cessationism” Jared Moore listed 16 disagreements, a few of which are summarized here:
1) He’s overly simplistic and dismissive. It’s undeniable that for over 1600 years of church history, the miraculous spiritual gifts were inactive in the church. They were only present among heretics…
3) He argues from silence. There’s no where in Scripture where God spoke to an individual through his or her feelings, causing his or her heart to burn, etc. Yet, Miller insists that God not only spoke this way in Scripture, but that He speaks to all Christians this way today as well. I hope the reader sees the danger here. Miller doesn’t realize it, but when he provides no Scripture and appeals to experience alone as the basis for His belief in God speaking through feelings, impressions, etc., …
5) The Bible never says the miraculous will cease (except prophecies and tongues, 1 Cor. 13:8), but it also never says they will continue either…
13) God speaking through Scripture is personal enough. I don’t need relative, personal revelation in order to have an intimate relationship with God. I have His Word!…
16) Those who affirm the subjective leading of the Spirit are dreadfully inconsistent. Those of you who believe you’re led subjectively by the Spirit, do you wait for the Spirit’s subjective voice before you do everything?…
I’m a practical cessationist but not a convictional one. All of your points are good–especially the one of having been a charismatic–but there needs to be room for those gifts to be expressed in God’s time and for his purpose. Convictional cessationism effectively disallows that happening for the precise same reason that convictional Pentacostalism effectively calls into question the salvation of non-tongues expressing believers: it throws systemic doubt on the opposite camp with zero regard to authenticity of faith. I’ve shared the experience among the Indonesian Mission regarding the discussion as related to me of Jerry Rankin’s private prayer language.… Read more »
“It takes a single counter example to disprove a logical argument after all.”
A man with a personal experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.
While that is a good point, it’s not an adequate point. The convictional cessationist position is also based on experience and experience only. It is not based on Scripture.
Max, The problem here is that the personal experience people claim are often highly subjective feelings and could be the Spirit’s work or could be that extra slice of pizza eaten last night. Reports of phenomena are often similar: it is possible that someone has seen a miracle, but it is also possible that they have experienced coincidence (not that I believe in existential coincidence, per se, but we often have everyday experiences to which we attach supernatural significance (and there is supernatural significance behind everything, every event is an amazing miracle in its own right, but not of the… Read more »
Jared, Without commenting–at this point–on the specifics and particulars of your response, your article reminds me that the SBC theologically in many ways is a house divided. My response to Denny Burk’s article on complementaranism and the Gospel also suggest that we are a house divided. The Calvinist/Traditionalist war further reminds me of our division. The Bible says in the book of Amos, “How can two walk together except they agree?” At what point do we say the differences are so great that we need to take an official stand on some of these issues? Yes, that would divide the… Read more »
” … the SBC theologically in many ways is a house divided … wouldn’t a house that is unified and walking in agreement on these secondary and tertiary – yet important matters – accomplish more for the Kingdom than a house divided? … Our lack of unity is probably eroding our mission efforts and the greater manisfestation of God’s manifest presence in our midst.” Brother McKissic – Even though it troubles me much to say this, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. As I’ve looked across the Protestant landscape at denominational splits and re-splits, it appears that such actions were… Read more »
“It’s clear from blog comments on this and other sites, that we do not think alike, nor feel alike, on the critical subjects of reaching the world for Christ and teaching disciples what they should know” I haven’t seen any disagreement on these two issues – that is, we do not disagree on the necessity and the divine calling for all believers to be reaching the lost and building the saints. That is why we are able to cooperate, we are joining together in this common work even if the way your church goes about that work is a little… Read more »
Dwight, That’s why it is helpful to belong to a denomination which makes room for disagreement (though I don’t think we have much room to disagree on complementarian issues – the BF&M is pretty clear). We can be united even as we disagree on these things. In my own association, I cooperate with pastors who are both Calvinistic and absolutely not Calvinistic. I also cooperate with those who are borderline charismatic. One of my closest pastor friends, a man who has served as a tremendous mentor to me, is a fellow Calvinist while also being an almost raging Bapticostal. We’ve… Read more »
Chris, I don’t disagree with you. I just felt the need to raise the question. Your bapticostal-calvinist friend would likely be denied mission/church planting opportunities with the IMB or NAMB because of his bapticostalism. You wouldn’t be denied those opportunities. That’s why I believe the SBC should provide some kind of disclosure to churches and church planters who may be interested in joining their ranks so they can make a more informed decision about a relationship with the SBC. In my judgement the degree to which the SBC leans cessationist, complementarian, and calvinist is not fullu understood by all. You… Read more »
For the record, I think the IMB made a mistake to add the restriction against a private prayer language. As the the SBC leaning complementarian, I think that’s fairly well understood and affirmed by most in the SBC. I’ll check out your response to Burk, I hadn’t seen that yet, but from what I’ve read thus far (and as I noted in my comment to you on the other post), no, I don’t think Burk in any way equates complementarianism with the gospel. His concern is with how people handle Scripture, and that the same treatment of the Bible which… Read more »
Chris, Do you belive that it is well under stood that a woman can not teach a man in Sunday School or speak/preach/teach in worship at the male Senior pastor’s request? In most Black Baptist including SBC Black churches, this sis a standard practice at least once a year(Women’s Day) and for many others women speak at the pastor’s request at other times. Why wasn’t the memo given to us when we joined the SBC? Examples of women functioning in this capacity in Scripture are plentiful. Why does the SBC frown on this practice. Paul clearly teaches that a woman… Read more »
Dwight, I would say that to some degree or another, these are at least the beliefs of most SBC churches (with variations for things such as Sunday school (in some places, certainly not all) and particular kinds of special events – women comedians, etc, though even in those cases I take a firm complementarian view). I disagree that there are plentiful examples in Scripture. There are a very few instances that raise side questions but which do not change what the Bible clearly teaches. But this is a distraction from the above post, a discussion which fits better on your… Read more »
A prayer that never fails Christian people:
‘Come, Holy Spirit . . . ‘
It’s an odd thing. I am not a cessationist and yet I agree with more in this article than I did with Dave’s. I think Jared’s points are good but his conclusion is not, and vice versa with the previous article.
Jared, THANK YOU for representing with grace and substance the issues that frame this matter. The readers should carefully read and investigate what Spurgeon confronted in the “Downgrade Controversy”. There is utterly no way to exegete someones ‘experience’. The parallels with his time and ours are many. The SBC claims to embrace the Sufficiency of Scripture but deny that important principle in a whole host of areas, this being but one of them. I am quite certain that you will be pilloried and maligned for taking this posture. I ask the readers to study the Scriptures on all the places… Read more »
When I read posts like this I think of the title of a little book in my library
“Your God Is Too Small”
Frank,
I prefer to let God be the God he has revealed himself to be.
Imagine that. I believe the same thing.
And, history, Scripture, and experience verifies my belief.
I’m sure you believe the same thing, but your implication is that I make God small because of what I believe about him, whereas I believe those who teach things like whispers from the Spirit are adding onto God things he never said about himself. Most of our language about God’s work in man today is language that is not found in the Bible. We have invented attributes for God and have taught people to expect him to do things he never promised to do.
Chris, You said, “We ask people to expect Him to do things he never promised to do?” Like what? I tell people to expect God to raise the dead, for example, because that is what He did and does, and Who He is. I ask people to expect God to supernaturally provide for any and every need. Did He not promise to do that? I ask people to expect God to manifest Himself through supernatural manifestations of the Spirit (continuationism), because that is what He promised to do. I’m sure you are familiar with the Book of Romans and Corinthians.… Read more »
Frank: my first read of your comment is that you thought the cessationist view could be considered putting God into a box that provides us comfort. But then I realized I might be missing your point. Could you elaborate just a little as to which direction you’re heading with that? Color me interested and curious and in strong potential agreement with that comment. In fact, my wife said exactly that to me this morning: that we cannot interpret Scripture in such a way that we restrict the work of God in any way, shape, or form when I was discussing… Read more »
Greg, My point of view is that almost every discussion (if not all) related to theology brings God down to man’s level. It cannot be any other way for we cannot “think” like God (Isa. 55). However, direct experience, involving what some philosophers call intuition is much more expansive than intellect. This is why Moses did not merely “think” about God while reading the Bible (which had not been written yet, but go with me on this) to get a “subjective” impression or intellectual understanding of what God said. No, Moses “experienced” God in a Burning Bush. This “experiential” element… Read more »
Thanks Frank. In essence I agree. I think the moment we start reading the ink, God chooses to either directly or indirectly help, but the idea the ink itself is magical is about as unBaptistic as I can imagine. Conflating the words on the page with THE Word of God is a forgivable act of simple faith that even a child might do. But the broader point that God isn’t tame nor tamable–using C. S. Lewis’ phrasing–is something I think we downplay as Baptists. I’d add that I personally–trained as a scientist–sometimes fall into the temptation of trying to analyze… Read more »
Greg,
I think you analyze–I too come from a science background–the issue well.
I don’t like what some people have done with words like, “mystery and magic,” but I believe these are essential elements in understanding (to whatever degree humanly possible) the Christian faith.
I also agree with your opening statement about Bible reading. I do believe that the Bible is indespensible in the experience of faith. How exactly God uses it–that is the methodology–I do not know but I know He does.
Good post. Thanks.
Should be: “discussing this with her”. I’m not married to a guy.
Dwight, if you believe unity means uniformity, you won’t find it even if you divide from the SBC and unite only with those who you think agree with you on everything. The greatest ministry is accomplished when second and third tier issues do not divide us. These issues should be lovingly discussed and debated, but they shouldn’t divide us. These issues are not essential, first tier issues for me. I’m a soft complementarian (I believe women can teach men; they’re just not supposed to teach men from the position of pastor/elder. This also only applies to the church, and not… Read more »
Jared, I appreciate your response. Our thinking is not as far apart as your post led me to believe. Based on how you define “soft complementarianism” I would fit that category. Neither do I think cessationism should be confessional, except in the context we now find ourselves in where I believe the SBC should weigh in on this. Functionally and practically, the IMB policies makes the convention–at least from a mission sending standpoint–cessationist. By the convention not weighing in on this, I find it very difficult to answer the question, what is the official SBC position on the gifts of… Read more »
I agree doctine is closed with the Bible…however, it is clear no one agrees what the Bible is saying…maybe we need a little true revelation on that? 1Co 14:39 So, then, brothers, earnestly seek to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 1Co 13:8 Love never fails. And whether there be prophecies, they shall be inactive; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be inactive. Have you heard of sarcasm? Paul is a rabbi. Rabbinic argument is full of sarcasm. The reason tongues and knowledge fail is due to love being absent. I have it…the answer to… Read more »
DEE,
concerning your statement, this:
“Cessationism is a Catholic doctrine through and through. ”
where is that found in the Vatican Catechism?
Dee,
It’s not the letter on a page that kills. The letter Paul is referring to is the letter of the Law. I think you might taking Paul a bit out of context.
John, hebraic thought allows a scripture to operate on 4 levels of understanding simultaneously…p’shat literal, drash comparative, remez hint and sod hidden. But letter on a page just means literal.the spirit giving life not only means the holy spirit speaking to you about it but also just taking the principle meaning and applying it too other circumstances similar in nature. However there are scriptures that also should be taken as prophecy that look only literal. Scripture is hebraic, so we must learn to think hebraic.
Jared, There are a number of points in your article which I do not agree with. I do not have time now to deal with them all point by point. I will limit myself now to only a few, though I may come back and deal with others later. First, your claim that “it’s undeniable that for over 1600 years of church history, the miraculous spiritual gifts were inactive in the church.” I am not sure how undeniable this is. There are scattered reports of miracles throughout church history. We will likely need to consult historical sources and go back… Read more »
David,
Great response. I would only add . . . well . . . nothing.
David, I’ll respond to you as well when I get some time; maybe this evening? I appreciate the interaction.
David, thanks for the comment. First, I’ve got some sources that Ruthven suggested. I’ll look through them, and try to get something together in a few weeks. It is a debatable issue; but I didn’t make it hastily. B. B. Warfield and Ian Murray have made similar statements. Second, even if I grant that miracles were frequent up to the Third Century, you must ask why they decreased and ceased. At the very least, you have to argue they decreased in frequency. Why did they decrease in frequency? If the church needs the miraculous gifts, why would they decrease in… Read more »
“Show me where in Scripture that a Christian must possess a certain amount of faith before he or she can use a spiritual gift. It’s not there.”
How about Rom 12: “If prophecy, prophesy according to your faith.”
Jon, You’re ignoring the context. Look at v.3 –
“3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned” (Rom. 12:3).
“According to our faith (Rom. 12:6)” refers to the “measure of faith God has assigned (Rom. 12:3).” It doesn’t refer to “if you possess a certain amount of faith.”
I don’t think you can altogether deny different measures of faith among disciples. Jesus referred to “Ye of little faith.” How that relates to spiritual gifts is not certain in my mind. After all, God manifested His truth through a donkey–I’m presuming was not part of the elect. Also, a important parable speaks of the “size of faith” in regard to a mustard seed. That would indicate to me that even the “smallest” measure of faith would be sufficient to be used mightily of God. As all you know, Biblical faith is dependent upon the “object” not the “subject.” So,… Read more »
RE: “Second…”: Check out this Sam Storms article http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/gifts-in-church-history/ RE: “Third…”: The Bible does explicitly teach that the exercise of gifts is somewhat contingent on one’s level of faith, as well as one’s desire to exercise that gift, often expressed through prayer: Romans 12:6–8, 1 Corinthians 14:1, 12–13, 39. RE: “Fourth…”: See above RE: Second, and RE: Third. RE: “Fifth…”: What is your exegetical basis for thinking “the perfect” is heaven? The text doesn’t talk about “going” somewhere, but rather about something (i.e. “the perfect”) “coming” to us. RE: 1 Cor. 1:4–8: Throughout the NT, the imminence of the Second… Read more »
David,
“”””though our lack of faith, desire, and prayer can also play a role in limiting what He would otherwise do (Matthew 23:37).””””
This seems explicitly clear in Scripture. All believers are not “equal” in the sense of performance. This is a touchy subject especially with American believers who are staunchly eqalitarian and individualistic in our world-view.
That’s “egalitarian” apart from gender.
Another argument for the continuation of the gifts:
If the gifts have ceased then Revelation 11:3-6 will not be possible.
I used to teach a class called, Thesis Research and Writing for many years at a major Protestant seminary. I would tell my students that they had no business proposing a “thesis” until they had read all the major related literature. I would strongly urge Jared to interact with some key works before repeating his cessationist theses–a position that, in the face of an exploding charismatic movement at over 700+ million world wide, and a flood of scholarly literature against it, is in serious retreat these days: Craig Keener, *Miracles: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts* 2 vols. Baker… Read more »
Dr. Ruthven has some pretty substantial argumentation here. If you click on his name, and go to his website, you can access an article “On the Cessation of Spiritual Gifts,” which is taken from his book and dissertation on the same topic. While I do not take a full-blown Pentecostal approach to spiritual gifts (as it appears Dr. Ruthven does), the argumentation for continuationism in general does not hinge, as I understand it, on such things as “second blessing” theology, or any one gift (such as tongues) as a necessary manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit. I have… Read more »
Jon, give me some time, and I’ll interact with some of the sources you suggest. To be fair, this blog post was a response to Dave Miller’s post (which cited no sources other than Scripture and personal experience). Also, at first glance, you seem to be confusing spiritual gifts and miracles. They’re not the same thing.
Maybe we’ll have some substantial interaction.
Isn’t “miracles” (dunameis) a “gift of the Spirit”?
Jon, the Spirit giving someone the ability to work a miracle and the Spirit working a miracle apart from gifting humans are 2 different things. The ability to work miracles is different than seeing the Spirit work a miracle independent of supernaturally gifting a person to work the miracle. Since you seem to be combining miracles worked by the Spirit independently and miracle working of the Spirit through gifting humans, are you still arguing that the miraculous spiritual gifts have been active throughout church history? I’m not talking about miracles being worked by God in response to prayer, I’m talking… Read more »
Jared, You are setting the rules for the playing field according to your own presuppositions, not according to Scripture. For one thing, everything that God does is supernatural. God works through people – it is always supernatural. I think that much that we explain away as being a coincidence or natural, is actually God working strongly through people in ways that we cannot explain. You create a prism here and then strain everything through it. It is impossible to have a complete discussion on this issue via blogs, especially when you level 18 points. To respond to each one would… Read more »
Excellent, sane, biblical expression. Good job!!
Oh, by the way, Jared – this is not an issue that I think we should divide over. I can think that you are wrong and you can think that I am wrong and we can continue to serve the Lord together in partnership and by encouraging one another, I hope. I appreciate you and your writing and am thankful that you put in the time and energy to write this response.
Alan, thanks for the interaction. First, if you make Acts 1:6-8 normative for all Christians spreading the gospel from that point onward, then where are your miracles? Also, shouldn’t you be ministering in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, unto the ends of the Earth. The disciples accomplished this prophecy in the First Century. You can’t take this “power” as normative without taking “unto the ends of the Earth” as normative as well. In other words, if we’re all going to receive this “power” from the Holy Spirit, then we’ll reach the ends of the Earth with each generation that possesses this power… Read more »
Once again, I would urge the participants of this discussion to check out Keener, *Miracles: The Credibility of the NT Accounts* (Baker Academic, 2011). It exhaustively (1179 pps) documents miracles happing all over the world, and makes the conservative claim that at least 300 million people claim to have witnessed them first hand, as I have. They’re not rare at all, but one must be willing to investigate them honestly. For a biblical outline arguing for the continuation of miracles and spiritual gifts, see http://www.jonruthven/ (article on cessationism).
Jon, just for the record, I’m not debating the existence of miracles. I’m debating the existence of the miraculous spiritual gifts. I’m in process of reading the sources you suggested, including your own book.
I understand that some make a distinction between miracles and “miraculous spiritual gifts.” For the life of me I can’t get the difference. But any way . . . . 😉
That should be http://www.jonruthven.org
Did you ever read or hear something and just know it was wrong, but you couldn’t prove it, at least at the moment? That is my reaction to some of what Chris is posting here. Like point 3. Words on paper or in a book are lifeless. If you are a follower of the Bible as a book of words you are in danger of becoming like the Jews who had to add a million laws or so to the Law in order to cover every new and different situation that rises up in daily life. That is the ministry… Read more »
A hearty “amen” to this analysis! The more I experience the working of the Spirit in my life, the more I am driven to the Bible, which, in turn drives me into the experiences of the Spirit. I strongly believe in the inerrant, holy, universal, unbroken, divinely-inspired scriptures–the word of God written–the non”sarcastic” word of God that means what it says–the word made alive to me by his Spirit (2 Cor 3). As far as “experiences” of the Spirit, I have a DMin student, an internationally-known evangelist and trainer in spiritual gifts, who has collected over 200 cases of surgically-implanted… Read more »
“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11) The countless works of the Holy Spirit among us are not directly seen. One of the great works of the Holy Spirit is to prepare the hearts of men to receive Our Lord . . . this has been on-going since Pentecost and will continue until Our Lord returns to us If the Holy Spirit’s preparation of the human heart… Read more »
Hi Jared, You wrote, “It’s undeniable that for over 1600 years of church history, the miraculous spiritual gifts were inactive in the church. They were only present among heretics. ” That assertion is not backed up by history. The gifts of the Spirit were active well up into Augustine’s time, though with decreasing frequency. That makes spiritual gifts a fairly normal occurrence for the first 400 years of Christian history, and that is in the mainstream, not the fringe. I would recommend you consult Eusebius A. Stephanou, “The Charismata of the Early Church Fathers” GOTR June 1, 1976 125-46. Not… Read more »
Jim, the presence of miraculous spiritual gifts or miracles?
Hi Jared,
Both are in evidence. I just read today that Bernard of Clairvaux, for instance, was said to have the gift of healing by making the sign of the cross over the sick. He was a pretty important figure in the Medieval church – he gave us the hymn “O Sacred Head” if I am not mistaken.
Jim G.
Jim, you think these are legitimate?
Hi Jared,
Of course I cannot say with absolute certainty, but I have no reason to seriously doubt the word of so many witnesses. Bernard had quite a reputation. He wasn’t the only one either.
Here’s a quote by Ian Murray: “What I would point out is the fact that not since the time of the apostolic church has there been any group of Christians whose claim to be in possession of the extraordinary gifts of the New Testament age has deserved credibility. These gifts were unknown in the time of Chrysostom (c. 347-407) and Augustine (c. 354-430). Nor have they ever been possessed by any evangelical leaders in any of the revivals from the Reformation to the present century. Against the claim of the Roman Church that she is authenticated by the continuance of… Read more »
the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit are given in order to build up the Church so that it may accomplish the great purpose of bringing Christ to the world . . . the Church has carefully guarded the integrity of the gifts by thoroughly investigating reported manifestations . . . for the thousands and thousands of reports that come in, not very many are validated after careful examination according to very strict guidelines here’s the thing: in this world, we see the manifestations of Satan . . . they have not ceased on this earth so it is that… Read more »
Hi Jared, Murray is just dead wrong. I want to encourage you to do two things. First, since I believe you are a student at SBTS, see if you have access to ATLA from home. If you do, go to it and type in “Eusebius A. Stephanou” in the search box and read his article on “The Charismata of the Early Church Fathers” from 1976 in GOTR (11 years BEFORE Murray – so Murray’s scholarship is extremely sloppy). It is in pdf full text. He provides primary source material from almost every important father of the first four centuries showing… Read more »
one further thing to consider . . . NONE of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are ‘ordinary’ . . . they are all manifestations of grace given in order to strengthen the Church for its mission people need to stop taking what is holy for granted . . . I have seen a lot of this among some Christian people . . . the more Christian people give thanks to God, the more they will see the wonders of God at work in this world taking for granted what is holy is not a good witness to the strength… Read more »
I’m afraid the distinction between the spiritual gift of miracles and miracles appearing in answer to prayer escapes me, since I can’t find clear scriptural support for this distinction. I might suggest that the Spirit works both. I would still recommend the bibliography in the Wikipedia article in Wikipedia on miracles and spiritual gifts in history.
Here are some examples of people using the gifts the Lord has given them. Why not allow the Lord to give the context to the scripture by seeing what He does through those He has gifted? These people are simply walking in obedience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBrwWv7EBtA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYKOMCXelCU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWbDvwebJVQ&feature=related
Jared, Good balance to Dave’s piece. I appreciate the work you both did. I would lean toward your position here primarily for the preservation of the revelation given in the canon of scripture. Also, while Paul treated the miraculous as common enough to comment on, the bulk of his admonitions had nothing to do with relying on the miraculous. Rather, his typical admonitions were what we might think of as ordinary. In fact, his admonitions regarding the miraculous placed restrictions on them favoring the clarity of the message of the gospel and the traditions of the ordinances that had already… Read more »