This is the first a series of posts I plan to author to explain, essentially, why when my fellow bloggers start vocalizing things other than English (or any other known language) I do not believe this to be a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. But before I go there, I want to start this whole process by giving a word to those of you who share my perspective on things. That word comes in the form of an exposition of 1 Corinthians 14:1.
Chase love down unrelentingly, through the swamps and sloughs and briar patches and cane thickets, until you catch it, but be people who think the spiritual gifts are the best thing since sliced bread and who really want to have them—most of all that you might prophesy. (1 Corinthians 14:1, ABWTSV)
Oh…I’m sorry…you’re not familiar with the ABWTSV? That’s the “Arkansas Boy Went To Seminary Version”
The Pursuit of Love
The first word of 1 Corinthians 14 is (in Greek) “Diokete.” When you encounter this word, you should imagine a hunt. Think of an English fox hunt, if you like, or the stalking of a gazelle on the African Savannah. As for me, although I never participated in any kind of hunting that actually amounted to the pursuit of prey (deer, ducks, doves…not much actual chasing involved in those sorts of hunts), I can’t help but think about the coon hunting my grandparents did in the bottoms of the Mississippi River Valley. I mean, you’ve seen “Where the Red Fern Grows,” right?
And the point, I think, is that love, for we who are sinners, is a prey that must be chased. It is not our natural state. We do not simply and easily will it into existence. We must labor and get sweaty pursuing it.
And so I confess that I find no joy in the task that I face over the next few posts. I wish I had not, a few posts ago, mentioned my “A Posteriori Cessationism” post in the comments. I think that’s what brought it to mind for Dwight and provoked his, the first post in this series. I wish we were not now three posts into a rehashing of this whole topic. I wish I were not writing rebuttals.
Why? Because I do not like how inevitably personal this topic becomes…how inevitably offensive my convictions are for someone like Dwight. This topic is a cane thicket, and the quarry (love) becomes harder to pursue on terrain like this.
And also, I like the state of Baptist blogging today better than I like the way it was “back in the day.” I’ve grown since then. I don’t want to go back. And when we start linking up all of our old posts and reassembling the gang for round 3, I worry that we are going back. Battle reenactments are enjoyable entertainment—for people other than veterans.
Exegetically, I think this is a pretty good understanding of the text, since this text itself was addressed to a group of people whose situation was perhaps not entirely dissimilar to ours. And so, in writing what I must, like it or not, write over the next several days, I must remember that I am COMMANDED to pursue love unrelentingly. And so are you, those of you who share my perspective. I’ve not paid careful attention to the comments on these other posts—they have been numerous and I have been busy—so I do not know what has been the tone of the conversation, but I’m just going to predict that pursuing love in the discussion of this topic will take intentional work, and if you aren’t working at it intentionally, you probably will not succeed.
The Desire for Spiritual Gifts and the Unbirthday
If cessationism is true, then that is an occasion for some sadness. Spiritual gifts are, after all, gifts. Birthdays are awesome. It’s fun to anticipate them. It’s a little sad when they are over. The spiritual gifts, whatever they truly were and are, are blessings, not burdens. They are good things, not bad things. Whenever and to whomever they were given, God is the Giver, and He gives only good gifts. Granted, there may be OTHER good gifts that God has given to us and not to those about whom we read in the New Testament, but a yearning for the spiritual gifts is, I think, Christian and holy and natural and good.
Most of us pass through at least some portion of our Christian lives—maybe all of it—envying the New Testament church and its members. To see Jesus teaching on the mount! To wash up on a seashore with Paul! To hear the mighty rushing wind of Pentecost! The irony, of course, is that we long to get back to a time that THEY desperately longed to escape. The early church was profoundly eschatological. We ought to be careful to long for what lies before us more than for what lies behind us—and we must all agree that the cessation of tongues lies before us if it does not lie behind us already. Nevertheless, even for those of us who are pressing on toward the upward calling, if you’ve ever stood at a checkpoint in a Cuban airport trying to determine the proper charades to indicate that instant Kool-Aid (which the machine-gun toting soldiers had never seen) truly is not some insidious Capitalist poison being smuggled into the country, then you’ve yearned to possess the gift of tongues and have seen how valuable they would be to us and how bereft of it we are.
By the way, God intervened in a mighty way in that situation, without the gift of tongues, and I’ll have to tell you that story someday.
In Alice’s Wonderland, the Mad Hatter and his friends celebrated unbirthdays. Their rationale? Birthdays don’t come often enough, so let’s change the rules to bring the merriment of birthday parties to every day of the year. Wishing that birthdays came more often is good. Changing to unbirthdays is cheating. It empties the real birthday of its special significance. It is an understandable temptation, but it is a temptation nonetheless.
But even if you agree with me about that, you don’t combat the unbirthday by suggesting that birthdays are not special. No, you show that unbirthdays can never be birthdays, try as they might. Sometimes our discussions of spiritual gifts can come off sounding as though spiritual gifts are for the needy or ignorant or excessively emotional—you know, all the things that the atheists say about our faith in general. But if we are healthy Christians, we ought to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, valuing them.
The Primacy of Prophecy
The fact that prophecy is prioritized is evident and appears prominently in people’s discussions of 1 Corinthians 14. The nature of prophecy—what, in fact, prophecy is and is not—also receives prominent discussion. I know that not everyone reading this essay will agree as to what prophecy is. I hope to write something that will appeal to us all, no matter what you think the gift of prophecy is. I hope to do so by pointing you to the REASONS given for the priority of prophecy. This much, after all, is indisputable in the text: Prophecy is more valuable because the edification, exhortation, consolation, and profit of the church is of high value. Whatever you may think prophecy is or is not, I suggest to you that anything ELSE that edifies, exhorts, consoles, and profits the church by speaking God’s truth to His servants is also valuable and important.
And so, it is this truth that overcomes all of my misgivings and brings me to my keyboard to expound, yet again, for the umpteen-gillionth time, a perspective on spiritual gifts that does not acknowledge a common Pentecostal and Charismatic practice as any sort of miraculous work of the Holy Spirit in our midst. If any of what I will write is God’s truth, and if I will present it with love for my brethren and respectful longing for the work of the Holy Spirit among us, then I am willing to trust that God will make it worthwhile to someone.
May we all, those of us who will be called cessationists at this site (even if that terminology may do little to communicate clearly what some of us actually believe), write what we write in either post or comment with that objective in mind. May God protect us from seeking to defend ourselves from criticism. May God protect us from prideful displays of perceived superiority. May God protect us from a sinful sense of denominationalism (this from a grateful and convictional Baptist!) that would regard anything as wrong simply because it is Pentecostal, for example. May God protect us from a sense of theological segregationism by which we set our sense of what is true either to keep races out or to bring them in. May God protect us from the sort of pragmatism that adopts whatever viewpoint fills a room. Rather, may God give us a fierce conviction that Truth is healthy, that the church needs it, and that efforts to expound it are never in vain, so long as they are the trace-mates of Christian brotherly love.
“ABWTSV”??! Ecstatic language if I ever heard it….
🙂
🙂
Wow, Bart…the ABWTSV(That’s the “Arkansas Boy Went To Seminary Version”) sounds a whole lot like the “TBWTSV.”
David
A very similar family of manuscripts.
At the risk of making a comment that looks like it’s all about me, I see what you did there. I’ve used the term “pragmatic cessationism” in the past and I wanted to distinguish that from “a posteriori cessationism”. I’m choosing to do that on Bart’s comment stream just as a matter of personal convenience: to highlight distinctions that I think are of interest to us from an administration standpoint that echo Bart’s basic stance. Let’s start: 1. By pragmatic I mean “what we can practically do and remain in unity”. So if you have a “continuationist” and a “cessationist”… Read more »
Allow me to complete ONE dangling sentence:
“Even if the only merit I give to their claims (I just know of Jerry, not Bobbye, having a personal prayer language, by the way, but she has supported him for their entire career so I consider them as “one”) is based on a personal trust of them as believers with no biblical foundation (even though I think there MAY be one as Dwight demonstrated) for their claims.”
As written the sentence leaves you wondering what the point is. My apologies.
Fear not, Greg. After decades of trying by better men than you, nobody has ever successfully let the air out of me. 🙂
Good. I’m not sure that we have a spare for you.
When I started reading that rendering, I thought it was the Cotton Patch version.
I did think of Clarence Jordan when I was doing it.
Bart. Thank you for you pursuit of love in regard to this matter. It makes it ever so less offensive when you tell me that what I have experienced in my walk with The Lord is “not of the Holy Spirit.” You are astute to point out that no matter what tone you express that in, it is not likely to engender a spirit of unity. Let me share a bit of my context: I began as a very non-charismatic Baptist; got saved; spent three months underwater at a time sitting next to a God-loving pentecostal; had a life-changing vision… Read more »
Well, if it helps at all, Frank, in my way of thinking you are hardly alone. I doubt there’s a Christian alive who hasn’t at some point along the way, been fully convinced that he or she knew something about God that turned out not to be true at all. Certainly that experience is not the unique possession of continuationists. If it turns out not to be true about you with regard to tongues, I’ll bet it has been about something else along the way. We are not so untainted by sin nor unrestrained by our meager position in the… Read more »
And, because this is true (for me and for you), I am never offended by this conversation or your opinions because I just think that you are wrong and it’s okay because we are all wrong about some stuff because we all see through a glass darkly and we all need to take a humble approach.
It’s just that I’m not wrong about this. You are. I’m sure of it. 🙂
Frank L., First of all, I am filled with the Holy Spirit. I have never spoken in tongues. I have never raised the dead. But, I am filled with the Holy Spirit. And, of course, we should be filled with the Holy Spirit, every single day, and walk in the Spirit all thru the day. The Spirit of God fills my heart with joy, and peace, and power. He pours the life of Jesus down into my heart. And yet, I have never spoken in tongues. I have never seen a true miracle performed before my eyes. And, I will… Read more »
Frank,
There is no such thing as a “Charismatic” Baptist. One does not exist. Now, there are Spirit-Filled Baptists and Baptist Continuationists and Baptists with Private/Personal Prayer Languages and Baptists who have experienced dramatic outpourings of the Holy Spirit and who witness in power and who have seen the dead raised and miracles occur. They are all over and I have met many of them. But, there are no “charismatic” Baptists, at least not according to the definitions of how “charismatic” is historically used.
Alan,
Okay, Bro. Dont get mad at me, and hang with me, here. Are you seriously saying that you know of truly dead people being raised back to life? that it’s been done here lately?
Are you also saying that you’ve seen miracles happen? Or, that you know of credible miracles taking place?
Are you also saying that you know of people, who have the gift of healings, and they can lay their hands on someone, pray for them, and they get healed….supernaturally, miraculously healed?
David
David,
I know you asked Alan, but I am curious: Did you ever watch the video I posted with the testimony of Dr. Chauncey Crandall? Are you saying you don’t believe what he said?
David Rogers,
I’m saying, I don’t believe what he says.
I saw the video. I have a hard time believing it. But, if Dr. Crandall, or anyone from that part of the world has the ability to raise the dead, my offer still stands. And, I’m very serious about my offer, as well. I will pay for whatever it takes to get them to Greenfield…I’ll come up with the money….so that they can go with me to the funeral home, and raise the dead….if they dont raise the dead, then you’ll have to pay for their travel, David.
David
Wow, Jess. This man is a well-known and respected cardiologist in West Palm Beach, Florida. He was also a trustee at Palm Beach Atlantic University. I have met him and talked to him personally. His son was my son’s roommate at PBA. And, to top it off, the man who came back to life gives the same testimony, as well as other family members.
Your response sounds exactly what I was referring to in my post A Priori Skepticism.
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/05/priori-skepticism.html
David Worley,
What Alan said.
David, you continue to set impossible and unbiblical parameters. You insist that we deal with your straw man instead of with biblical texts.
You and you alone have created the “he has to come to my town and go to the funeral home” scenario. It is absurd – constructed wholly of straw and logically flimsy.
You need to leave that bit of silliness behind, David.
David, I go to India a lot. I have sat in a room with a group of Indian Christians and everyone in the room pointed to a man who they say has raised the dead – that they have seen it – and that God did it through His prayers and that God was glorified. They all say it happened and they testified to it. I heard it through a translator and asked them questions and they all affirmed it. Either they were lying to me or they were telling the truth. Judging my the character of the people, their… Read more »
David Worley, And, according to your last statement about Dr. Crandall – what makes you think Biblically that gifts of healing work on your command or that one could ever walk into a funeral parlor and raise everyone from the dead? Jesus had the power to raise the dead but he didn’t keep the thief on the cross from dying – even when the other thief challenged him to do so. That didn’t mean that he didn’t have the power to deliver him. Dave Miller says that you are constructing straw man arguments. I tend to agree here because what… Read more »
Alan, There’s also a lot of people…sincere people,…who believe in Benny Hinn, and would call what he does “true miracles.” They honestly believe that Hinn and Oral Roberts and others like that really did heal the sick and such. But, we all know that people can be deceived, or fooled, or they may have honestly thought the fella was dead, and he was really just unconscious. It’s not that I dont believe that you heard these people, and they sound sincere…I just have to doubt their experience was what they thought they saw. Also, Alan, what miracles have you seen… Read more »
David Worley, It sounds like you are looking for incontrovertible evidence with no other possible explanation. If we had that, there would be no need for faith. As my Dad used to say, if God wanted to, He could reach down and take the roof off the building and say boo, and we would all automatically be believers. But there is a reason God doesn’t do that. It is because He is looking for faith. I do agree we should not confuse faith and gullibility. There is indeed a place for sanctified skepticism. But when I have to choose between… Read more »
volfan007,
I have never seen such a thing, and I can guarantee you no one else has seen it either. To be absent in body is to be present with the Lord. Unless someone believes a Christian can be kicked out of Heaven.
I knew those Zombie movies would start having an effect of folks.
Alan, I was using “charismatic” in the sense that a charismatic Southern Baptist church used that term. There are not many, but there are some Baptists who define themselves as charismatic. I happen to be one. You take a more narrow definition of charismatic than I do, which I understand from the charismatic wars of the 70’s and 80’s. Part of the reason there may not be more “charismatic Baptist churches” is because it just ain’t worth the fight. I am in a unique position of being a SBC church in a pioneer area that is struggling to hold on… Read more »
Right. I understand, Frank. I am just saying that the terms here need to be clarified. I understand what you are trying to say. But, if you hold to classical Pentecostal/Charismatic theology, you are in violation of the BFM2000 in a fairly significant way and I don’t think that you can be a Baptist. Now, you can be a Continuationist. In the sense that “charisma” is used to simply refer to the Gifts of the Spirit, then of course, you can be a charismatic Bapitst. But, then again, all Baptists believe in the Gifts of the Spirit on some level,… Read more »
Frank L. asked: “Could that be at least part of the reason that the SBC is in a nose dive and has been for over half a century at least, and maybe more?” I wanted to respond to this specific question. Let me offer two answers: 1. I believe that the rejection of “Pentecostalism” in the 50s and 60s and the “Pentecostal-lite” charismatic movement of the 70s was a systemic, pervasive rejection of spiritual gifts that are openly practiced and celebrated in Southern Baptist churches. We definitely have fewer of these kinds of believers because of that systemic rejection through… Read more »
Bart, Thanks for your generous attitude here. I would expect no less from you. I would hope that we would be able to discuss this while pursuing love and a greater unity and while striving to maintain that unity. In reality, I think that we can because most of us who have discussed this issue over the years have gotten to know each other and we are having a conversation amongst friends (at least that is how I see it). So, even though we disagree on this issue and on whether or not a PPL is valid, Biblical, unbiblical, or… Read more »
Alan, My apologies, and I’m entirely willing to do that. That’s not asking any more from me than I conceded in using the terminology “Particular Redemption” in an earlier post. I would say, however, that this particular concept of speaking in tongues is the distinctive contribution of the Pentecostal & Charismatic movements. Second-blessing theology is not. Second-blessing theology is older than the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. Its roots go back at least as far as Wesleyanism. What the Pentecostals and Charismatics introduced was the idea of this kind of speaking in tongues. That seedling did in fact germinate in the… Read more »
Thank you, Bart. I appreciate that consideration. Second Blessing Wesleyanism dealt with Sanctification. Second Blessing Pentecostalism deals with power for mission and the Christian life. This is why the Assemblies of God have 2 experiences and the Church of God has 3 (salvation, sanctification, and endument with power from on high). The AoG went straight for mission and the Church of God stayed steeped in the Wesleyan tradition and just added tongues on at the end. I understand the origin of the idea of a PPL. But, there is still a dramatic difference. We do not call all those who… Read more »
Alan,
The reason why I outlined the history in my previous comment was to show that I was not trying to insult, but to describe. As you should know, when I’m trying to be insulting, I turn to words like “gibberish.” 🙂
Knowing why I was using those words might help you to know that I was not being intentionally derogatory.
Oh, I do not think that you were at all. We are on the same page here and I understand the history. I just thought that other terms would be more helpful for our current conversation. Thanks!
Bart, as one who does not, in whole at least, share your position on the matter, I would say the following: 1) So far, so good. I doubt we could find a lot to disagree on as to what you said here. I read the article hoping to engage something you said, and can only say amen. That will likely change later, I assume. 2) I don’t think you have to worry about us going back to the wild west days of blogging. Most of us don’t want to go there. What most want today is vibrant theological dialogue without… Read more »
And more than that, if we cannot agree on the meaning of the terms, then shouldn’t we focus on BEHAVIOR that affects all of us instead of prayer that is personal? I have NEVER had a problem with the IMB/NAMB or whoever saying that because the issue is divisive and we have disagreement that a Continuationist should not advocate PPL on the mission field or that if someone has a PPL that they should not engage in it publicly or promote it. But, what the IMB policy does (and NAMB as well) is effectively eliminate from service EVERY honest, theologically… Read more »
One of the great Doctors of the Church wrote this about the nature of prayer:
” For me, prayer is an aspiration of the heart,
it is a simple glance directed to heaven,
it is something great and supernatural,
which expands my soul
and unites me to Jesus.”
Bart,
You have done it again with your Godly character. You are the type of person anyone would want to have a conversation with. I feel blessed
just to have communicated with you here on Voices.
Thanks, Jess.
A proper definition of Cessationism would be helpful. Cessationism is about Revelation and not spiritual gifts. Cessationists do not believe Spiritual gifts have ceased but that the revelatory gifts have ceased because Revelation is complete until Jesus Comes. Spiritual gifts are not about “me” but others. Most of the arguments about these “special” gifts revolve around personal “experience” and are emotionally driven. Experience and emotion are subjective. Concerning other gifts Cessationists would not say, for instance, “God no longer heals.” They would say that there are no “faith healers” of the apostolic kind, because, #1 Paul was the last of… Read more »
Jeff,
I just read the “Miracles in India” post on the HIMAfrica site. It puts what you are saying in a different perspective.
Yes I was thinking of this very thing when I shared the testimony. Am I in conflict with what happens often in places like Africa and India? In this particular situation the brothers (elders) prayed for this lady and she became better over time (still an answer to prayer) and her sins were forgiven because she came to Christ Jesus as her savior. Praise the Lord. The Lord healed her. I am very skeptical of “faith healers.” You probably are aware of the abundance of “super apostles” in Africa mimicking the false teachers from the USA and other western countries… Read more »
Jeff, apart from the fact that there is no verse that says any gifts have ceased, what verse outlines “revelatory gifts” as a sub-category of spiritual gifts? I think this is where I have some difficulty. I can bring my perspective upon the text and describe some gifts as this and some as that, but I have trouble starting with the text and arriving at my presuppositions. What text do you feel outlines gifts into sub-categories? A side question would be: which list is complete? Do you put them all together? Is Paul seeking to be exhaustive in any lists?… Read more »
Also, in 1 Cor. 1:4-8, when Paul is telling the believer in Corinth that God would continue to confirm through the distribution of spiritual gifts until the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, he specifies gifts related to “all speech and all knowledge.” Sounds an awful lot like “revelatory gifts” to me, if we want to use that category.
that should be “believers in Corinth,” not “believer.” I didn’t mean to imply there was just one. 🙂
David answered the question of which text would give a “sub-category” of gifts. And yes I was giving my own interpretation/understanding of the study of gifts, especially tongues without explanation. My presumption, which is a horrible weakness, was that you would understood me without any explanation. My wife takes me to task concerning this. BUT 1 Corinthians 13:8 specifically says prophecy, tongues and knowledge will/would cease. The question is when. When is answered in the following verses. Then the question must be answered as to what the is meant by “when the perfect comes” means. Being the text is talking… Read more »
I should of said, “My definition of cessationism is…” This would of helped to better communicate what I am saying from my perspective.
The discussion/controversy is not new and has been hashed and rehashed many times.
Bart,
I love this post and even more the spirit of this posts. Being an Arkansan, even with far less seminary training than you, I loved the Arkansas translation and application of the verse on love and prophecy that you referenced. May the Lord be with you as you develop the future posts.
I thought Alan made some noteworthy comments in this thread regarding the distinctions between continuationist Baptists and classical charismatics. Like Alan, I wish those distinctions were better understood and identified by speakers and writers when addressing this subject.
So far, I’ve been impressed with the tenor of this whole discussion.
Dave, we got tired of fighting each other on this around 2008, if not earlier. Dwight’s conference on the Holy Spirit prior to that time had a lot to do with that, I think. Plus, at least for me, I came to appreciate deeply Bart and others that I once argued with. This is all just good fellowship to me.
Fair warning to everyone: The Supreme Court of the United States is going to issue its rulings on two homosexual-related cases tomorrow. I expect that to suck the oxygen out of the atmosphere for a while. My subsequent posts will probably not being to appear until at least Monday, in order to give space for this topic.
Indeed. I imagine that will take up our attention quite a bit. You are absolutely right. Praying tonight for all involved.
Bart,
You said “…suck the oxygen out of the atmosphere…” – I was just reading several articles on the rulings expected and another on Healthcare. Thought came to my mind – would probably be a good investment to purchase some stocks in oxygen companies!
Thanks, Bart, I’ll be praying and watching. I hope the Supreme court has, at least common sense.
“I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet” (grandson/father of said specie not excluded). I am a cranky old engineer who grows weary of seeing 10 million electrons wasted to parse, quibble and justify your ‘personal’ actions. How can they possibly be ‘personal’, with the constant demand that we express our appreciation of your ‘personal’ gift/or whatever term you choose. If it is ‘personal’, you keep it personal- I don’t need to hear about it. And the wrapping of scripture with ‘your experience(s)’ is neither convincing nor appealing. You’re welcome. And I am aware of the mission… Read more »
“”” with the constant demand that we express our appreciation of your ‘personal’ gift/or whatever term you choose.”””” Dale, may I respectfully disagree that I ever asked anyone to express appreciation for my spiritual gifts. The reason it could not be kept “personal” is because persons were asked if they engaged in this activity of the Holy Spirit. It was the intrusion of the Board that brought it into the public domain. For many years, it had not been a problem at all and I do not know of any specific instance that sparked the problem. I also think you… Read more »
Frank; Please pardon my typing- this is the third attempt. “I’ve seen these “faked” many times ..” My point precisely, you recognized the attempted fake and were not faked/fooled (or likely anyone else either) with “. And thus the problem with ecstatic utterance and the defense thereof. Personal/private has been kicked back and forth throughout this comment stream- take your pick. How would the board have ever known to ask if PPL was being practiced, if an individual had not previously made that known? The question was not without background. It is this seemingly endless need of practitioners to make… Read more »
Frank;
Again, my typing;
either) with “. should have read::: either) with “fruit of the Spirit”. And thus…..
And I would have hoped that a chemist remembered that matter and energy are only transformed (not destroyed). But that certainly doesn’t eliminate ‘being wasted’. Sorry, I never remember how to do smileys.
Bart,
Have you buried me yet?; or are you going to wait ’til your next post to do that?????
Question marks should have been a smiley face. Since technology failed, I’ll have to do it the old fashion way -:).
Dwight,
Check your emails.
Dwight,
Sir, it’s easy. See! 🙂
Jess,
????
Dwight,
I tried to duplicate what you did. Except mine turned out to be a smiley face.