We are burdened about race relations in America and in the church. We advocate actively seeking justice and reconciliation through greater inclusion, through minority hiring, through social justice initiatives from a biblical foundation.
Some of you oppose everything we suggest. You quibble with our terminology and accuse us of racism, of reverse discrimination, or you trumpet colorblindness.
I am giving you this forum to propose solutions. Everything we have suggested is wrong. I don’t think so but fine.
The floor is yours.
How would YOU solve racism and bring greater racial participation in the SBC? Or do you think things are fine as they are?
(Only the opposition gets to comment on this post)
I am not going to delete comments or respond to them, except for factual info.
But I do think that it would be good to ask that if you wish to opine you use your name. Please, no more anonymous comments.
Sigh.
Interesting asking those predetermined to be “opponents” to opine.
How sweet.
But regardless – I’ll offer a suggestion or two later…
Pastor Dave: In this invitation, there is a ‘we’ and a ‘you.’ The we has identified a problem of race problems and injustice. As best I understand, the ‘you’ is not a group who necessarily say there is no race problem or injustice but rather are in disagreement over what should be done. What seems to be missing is the ‘they.’ Assuming this issue is being kept to the SBC denomination, who is it that is ‘racist.’ Who is it that is not open to the reconciliation the ‘we’ is saying is needed? It seems to me the ‘we’ calling… Read more »
We=those who have made proposals about social justice and racism in articles on this site
You=those who have opposed our proposals.
Not complicated
Look, I am giving you a chance to make positive suggestions – those of you who oppose everything we offer as a solution.
Seems pretty fair.
So you would be fine with it if someone who disagrees with you submitted an op and called it something like:
“OK, progressive social justice warriors – this one’s for you….”
I’m not suggesting someone do that or even advocating any accuracy of the wording – I’m simply attempting to Illustrate a point.
Obviously it’s your playground… You get to make the rules. I understand that voices is not a democracy. You and your team can and will do as you wish.
Would you like some cheese with that,..
I’ll share some with you – maybe we can enjoy it together. 😉
“Somebody called me a racist” (Sniff, sniff)
“the document people hate me” (Tears forming)
“I am just trying to virtue signal here and y’all oppose my ideas” (Waaahhhhhaaaaaa)
Classy comment.
Solving racism? Dave, can I weigh in? I have a Phd is Baptist Studies from Southern (2004) under Tom Nettles. I graduated high school in GA and from BJU in 1978. I’ve seen racism up close and personal. But . . . racism is not a problem to be “solved” like a flat tire. Flat tire – remove the nail, add air, problem solved! Racism is a tragic part of the human experience. We may not “solve” it but we can reduce it and work to overcome and offset it. I think realistically, only in heaven will the problem be… Read more »
But this is exactly the point: you are already assuming your conclusion without proving it. We disagree because, while there may be cases of racism, there is no huge problem. “Underrepresentation” is not racism, and Affirmative Action IS racist because it judges people based on the color of their skin rather than character and qualifications. We don’t like your “solutions” for racial reconcilation because we don’t agree with your identification of a problem.
I see this is not really a forum, and you’re deleting comments you don’t like. Nice.
No comments have been deleted.
Could you use your real name?
Step 1: Erase completely from our language and thinking the unbiblical notion of the existence of many different human races. Embrace the biblical truth that there’s only one human race. We are all the same race, regardless the level of melanin in our skin or other physical features.
May I ask you to amplify?
Much of the NT is about the Jew/Gentlile division. Was that not racial? Jesus gathering people from every tribe and tongue. – how do you deal with that?
The JewGentile division is exactly the point. We are taught the preferencial misunderstanding the implications of the gospel….Jesus doesn’t redeem/call based on worldly categories. Our unity in Christ and our family of God connection transcend those temporal distinctions. That text in Revelation doesn’t teach that Jesus is gathering people *based* on skin tone (actually not mentioned in text), tribes, tongues, etc….he is gathering them based upon His merciful grace extended to *all* who believe – The apostle John is relaying to us a scene he’s been made privy to – describing it. Exactly none of those people around the throne… Read more »
only *focus on* Jesus – not on skin color, tribe etc. remains.
Now for a practical suggestion… Perhaps the trustees could design or find, I’m sure something like this exist in the HR world, a computer system into which they input objective qualifications, expectations, skill sets, etc. (absent skin tone) as resumes are submitted they are collected on that server. All identifying information including name, is redacted from matching reports and Each applicant is assigned a number. ( this may actually require a trusted person to put eyes on it to ensure that as much identifying information as possible is removed.). I’m not an expert on these matters… Obviously… But perhaps you… Read more »
Reading these posts is a fascination to me; I have not complained in the past—but have read many of the posts and ‘comments.’ I believe the problem lies in the ‘assumption’ of racism in all churches—or even in some churches. Is an all ‘white’ church in the middle of Nebraska racist merely because there is a lack of ‘blacks’ to attend? Are all ‘white’ churches in the ‘deep south’ automatically racist because of location? We need to be careful, because by implication we are stating that traditionally all ‘black’ churches in the south are racist by their lack of ‘whites’?… Read more »
Well actually I have seen close to zero solutions on this website. Second, racism is sin. You cant get rid of sin in someone else’s heart. You can only repent of your own sin. So the first step is that who ever is racist, they need to repent. Third. If you find that a fellow believer is acting, by word or deed, in a rascist manner, yiu are to go to him or her abd rebuke them privately. If that doesnt work, take two or three with you. If they still dont repent, bring them before the congregation. If they… Read more »
“How would YOU solve racism and bring greater racial participation in the SBC? Or do you think things are fine as they are?”
I don’t have the answers for any of these. Thanks for giving a forum to those who do (or who think they do).
For those who have opposed the solutions proffered on this blog, would any care to explain to me what they are and why you opposed them?
Anyone?
Step 2: For those who are in Christ, Christ should become your identity. Recognize that worldly categories of black Christian, white Christian, Asian Christian, Hispanic Christian, and so on are identities brought in from the world based on racial categories that our sin nature uses to promote division and that the devil loves to exploit. We’re just Christian.
We don’t need racial camps. There’s only one camp.
Step 3. Celebrate ethnic diversity in Christ. Picture Revelation 5. We should never advocate for “colorblindness.” That’s impossible. What we should advocate for is “color celebration.” I’m thankful that the Kingdom of God is filled with every shade of skin color and ethnicity.
Ben Simpson,
Colorblindness doesnt mean we dont see how much melatonin is in another’s skin, but that we dont judge that other person based on it.
Michael, that’s what some mean by it, but lots of folks go farther and say that they literally don’t even see other’s blackness or whiteness or Asianness. That absurd.
We notice people’s differences and should celebrate it to God’s glory.
I have not seen anyone who advocates for “colorblindness” on this site suggest not noticing ones skin tone…that is absurd and not possible. What has been suggested is that skin tone should not be seen as a qualifier or dis-qualifier for a job, a basis of character, etc… (We have been told that such notions have happened on the site but are deleted or have been emailed to admins…..Thankfully I do not see the deleted comments or emails to editors. I absolutely do take them at their word.) In fact I and others have advocated for viewing persons just as… Read more »
There is only one way to stop racism. It is to love your neighbor as yourself. First, it is to clearly define racism – the sin of showing partiality on the basis of race. When God delivered what we know to be the second commandment, this is what He said in Leviticus 19: “15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. 16 You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act… Read more »
Louis, Yep, its all pretty simple. The problem is when some or even many don’t want to do just that: stop discriminating against people based on skin color. Then others feel like programs or whatever must be enacted to ‘stop’ racism. Good works and good programs cant stop others from sinning. Social Justice, as defined by most, cant stop racism or any other discrimination due to sin because good works and good programs cant change sinners’ hearts. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help those in need, butwe can never help enough because we are not treating the root of the… Read more »
Racism comes from fear. Fear comes from a lack of experience. If white churches and black churches swapped pulpits for more than a Sunday maybe that would help.
Good idea
This is important, because I think the perpetually white leadership structure is not so much overt racism as it is drawing from your circle. The white leadership will draw from their white circle because those are the people they know. Sure they’ve met black people and may even like them, but that’s not the same thing. Start hanging out with people who aren’t like you. But to do that, you have to acknowledge that differences in skin color might mean other differences.
I love this idea! To my knowledge, I was the first and only pastor so far at Springer Church to have a black man in the pulpit. I’ve never pastor swapped though, that’s a great idea.
John, I think the same is true at my church too.
Dave Miller, You and I seem to end up on opposite sides of the arguments here. I am not sure how that happens. I suspect we are closer to each other in our positions than we think we are. I also suspect, in regards to this post, that you are either still upset or angry about the social justice discussion. You must understand however, that many people’s experiences with social justice is the type that was described by Dr. Mohler in the first few minutes of that chapel video. It is the kind that is rampant on university campuses right… Read more »
Has anyone thought about the obvious? How many of you have attended a black church? There is no place on earth more uplifting and loving on a Sunday morning. My former husband took me to some churches in the Chicago area. Great places and when the Spirit hit, the nurses came out. I’ve never enjoyed church more. But I didn’t belong there. And I’m convinced they’d not be comfortable at my church. We both love the Savior, but our worship styles are vastly different. When I was young, I lived in the Potrero Housing project. O J Simpson was my… Read more »
A couple of thoughts: -On hiring: I like the database suggestion. When all resumes are whittled down by computer and eyes actually start seeing candidates, then you can take race into suggestion. For instance, if 500 applicant resumes come forward for President of the Executive Committee, then program a database with all pertinent requirements and expectations and let program whittle down to 10-20. At that point, if any minority (Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) is in the list, I have no problem considering them first. Understand when the call for minority leaders is issued, it sounds as if you’re saying toss… Read more »
To seek a solution to the problem of race relations is circular reasoning. It assumes the premise that there ACTUALLY IS a solution. What solutions have already been implemented? Integration? Busing? Voting right acts? Affirmative action? Look at where these solutions have gotten us. Are the solutions that you are proposing going to improve race relations or just – by their failure – are they going to lead to another litany of new solutions? The truth of the matter that everyone knows, is that there is only one solution – a change of heart. Unless you are trusting in the… Read more »
Another suggestion… Rather than a top down approach and advocacy – which never really accomplishes even the noblest of goals in the political world or in the SBC….I am not a fan of top down approach. Its like the local church, the association and the state conventions are being stepped over while the “national” convention is looked to as the “battleground’. I think the battleground is much more localized. Perhaps we all should model what we think racial reconciliation should look like in our churches. Meet with other pastors face to face and share with them our ideas…seek ideas from… Read more »
One of the mechanisms at work here is that whatever “farm system” is in place in the SBC primarily consists of white guys. One reason that may be is because there are non SBC Baptist denominations which have historically consisted of non-white congregations. So people that are non-white tend to gravitate to the churches that their parents went to. Young people in these churches, who are entering ministry, naturally tend to follow the footsteps of pastors and leaders they know in the churches they attend. They naturally follow in the footsteps of their mentors. Many of these “footsteps” are likely… Read more »
Mr Tarheel: I see some resonance between your idea and mine. A laboratory demo would be to stage a prototype effort in say Raliegh – Durham NC which would be a “local” effort. Maybe one church would be Cline’s Corners Baptist Church [SBC], one would be Bautista Trinidad [a church in a Latino Baptist convention] and one would be the New Greater Jerusalem Church of God in Christ. There might be some synergy in getting ad-hoc combinations like this together to setup congregations in inner city transitional areas as well as the suburban ring around major cities. I don’t know… Read more »
The Church has not been called to resolve racism but rather call sinners to be saved. Historical racism spans centuries and is present today all over the world in all cultures. Why? Because it is rooted in the demonic scheme to pit one group versus another. Today’s popular trend is men versus women, old versus young, and white versus minorities. This is compounded by attempts to apologize for things that happened centuries ago, which no person can do as they are only accountable to a Holy God for themselves. Solution proposal…get back to the gospel call that unites all Christians… Read more »
Would you also say, “The church has not been called to oppose abortion, but to call sinners to be saved?”
Just wondering.
If I may point out, Rudd’s statement said “The Church has not been called to resolve racism…” RESOLVE and OPPOSE do not mean the same thing when inserted into his sentence. You get two different meanings depending on which word you use. I would venture to guess that Rudd ALSO opposes racism.
So we can oppose abortion but not resolve it?
Racism and abortion grieves the Holy Spirit as does all sin in a lost dying world. The powerful message of grace and mercy beacons the heart of all mankind to change. Our task is to present His word (not our) believing the Holy Spirit’s power to change lives. He welcomes all at the cross….that life changing message transcinds all time and culture.
Yes. After how many years has it been opposed and not resolved? Plus, it doesn’t look like there will be a resolution anytime soon.
Thats right Dave. We can not resolve it. It was done when it was illegal. It will be done legally or illegally. Neither can we resolve racism. In fact we have a better chance at abortion. Racism is in the heart of man. Even i the heart of those who can ti be Christian. I hope they especially, repent. Neither can we resolve any of the ills of society. We have two ‘weapons’ which are not weapons at all. 1] The Gospel 2] Our good works. 1] Preaching the Gospel isnt us changing society. It is being obedient to our… Read more »
A the risk of being called a heretic I would say not as a primary calling. The church main business is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That he died for our sins according to the scriptures was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. That is our primary calling.
We need to be clear on the categories. Abortion is an activity. Racism is a matter of the heart. There are some outworkings of racism that we can oppose as a convention. Changing the heart is a matter that must take place within each church in the due course of its ministry of sanctifying individual members by the power of the Holy Spirit.
A decade or so ago the NFL made a rule stating a minority had to be considered for all new head coaching positions. But today that rule is not necessary. Many black coaches have excelled. No team has a hard time considering a minority and few fans even think about the race of their team-‘s head coach. I believe this is a good model for the SBC to follow.
Hi Dave,
I am not sure why everyone seems to have forgotten that we have hired a minority as an entity head. Geoff Hammond was South African. He was white but he was a cultural minority. Things didn’t work out so well either. The first criteria for any of our entity heads is that they have to be able to relate well to the convention’s primary culture and secondly but just as importantly across the cultural spectrum of our convention.
Stop deleting comments, not just on this post, but on all posts here that deal with race. Even the comments that make you (you – those running SBC Voices) angry. Acknowledge there are opposing viewpoints with which you disagree, but they are nevertheless legitimate, valid viewpoints. Don’t obsess over every racial incident. Most do not need protests and riots. They just need time for police, grand juries, courts to deal with them. Some, when all is said and done, were not even about race. Realize sometimes Black folks are right and White folks are wrong. But also realize sometimes Black… Read more »
David, you are the guy who, when given multiple opportunities to say something, anything against misogyny, repeatedly refused to do so because, presumably, your hero was indirectly involved. While your comments are almost always welcomed here, your lecture may lack ethical backing. Regardless, it’s up for all to see.
cordially…
William, I’ve spoken plenty of times against hatred and mistreatment of women, including some of my previous replies to you. Perhaps you should reread them. I answered your questions, just not the way you apparently wanted me to answer them. That is not the same as saying I did not answer them. I also acknowledge there is some extremism in the MeToo movement. Sometimes men need to be protected and defended against false accusations (many women are also concerned about their husbands, sons, fathers, brothers being falsely accused). I’m a big believer in fairly hearing both sides; a privilege not… Read more »
Racist comments will continue to be deleted. And comments that troll or take the conversation in wrong directions. Actually, we are more likely to exert MORE control over the discussion than less. I’ve recently re-engaged at the Baptist Review which exercises tight moderation and has very sensible discussions. I’d like to see us establish policies more like they have and much stricter moderation so that discussions would be MORE productive than LESS control which tends to lead to LESS productive discussions. You have been given almost complete free commenting privilege here, with few exceptions. You complain regularly about moderation FAR… Read more »
Solutions to Racism: 1. a. Recognize racism is not a root issue, it is a derivative issue, part of a more basic root issue of predjudice and preferential treatment that spans ALL differences among people and groups of people. Whether the differences are theological, income, cultural, social, skin-color, physical fitness, driving habits, eating habits, city/rural, etc… We ALL are predisposed to identify more with those more similar to us, and to have more negative attitudes toward those who are more different than us. For example: I think I drive about the right speed most of the time, those who go… Read more »
I have to say that within the convention, I don’t know beans about hiring to work in the convention. If qualified individuals are not being hired because they are a minority race, then it needs to stop. What we shouldn’t get into is not hiring qualified people because they are not a minority race and going on a search to find someone who is the race we are looking for in order to appease minorities. We also need to get out of the mindset that we are represented by people other than the messengers of our churches. The president or… Read more »