We are burdened about race relations in America and in the church. We advocate actively seeking justice and reconciliation through greater inclusion, through minority hiring, through social justice initiatives from a biblical foundation.
Some of you oppose everything we suggest. You quibble with our terminology and accuse us of racism, of reverse discrimination, or you trumpet colorblindness.
I am giving you this forum to propose solutions. Everything we have suggested is wrong. I don’t think so but fine.
The floor is yours.
How would YOU solve racism and bring greater racial participation in the SBC? Or do you think things are fine as they are?
(Only the opposition gets to comment on this post)
I am not going to delete comments or respond to them, except for factual info.
But I do think that it would be good to ask that if you wish to opine you use your name. Please, no more anonymous comments.
Sigh.
Interesting asking those predetermined to be “opponents” to opine.
How sweet.
But regardless – I’ll offer a suggestion or two later…
Pastor Dave: In this invitation, there is a ‘we’ and a ‘you.’ The we has identified a problem of race problems and injustice. As best I understand, the ‘you’ is not a group who necessarily say there is no race problem or injustice but rather are in disagreement over what should be done. What seems to be missing is the ‘they.’ Assuming this issue is being kept to the SBC denomination, who is it that is ‘racist.’ Who is it that is not open to the reconciliation the ‘we’ is saying is needed?
It seems to me the ‘we’ calling for
We=those who have made proposals about social justice and racism in articles on this site
You=those who have opposed our proposals.
Not complicated
Look, I am giving you a chance to make positive suggestions – those of you who oppose everything we offer as a solution.
Seems pretty fair.
So you would be fine with it if someone who disagrees with you submitted an op and called it something like:
“OK, progressive social justice warriors – this one’s for you….”
I’m not suggesting someone do that or even advocating any accuracy of the wording – I’m simply attempting to Illustrate a point.
Obviously it’s your playground… You get to make the rules. I understand that voices is not a democracy. You and your team can and will do as you wish.
Would you like some cheese with that,..
I’ll share some with you – maybe we can enjoy it together. 😉
“Somebody called me a racist” (Sniff, sniff)
“the document people hate me” (Tears forming)
“I am just trying to virtue signal here and y’all oppose my ideas” (Waaahhhhhaaaaaa)
Classy comment.
Solving racism? Dave, can I weigh in? I have a Phd is Baptist Studies from Southern (2004) under Tom Nettles. I graduated high school in GA and from BJU in 1978. I’ve seen racism up close and personal.
But . . . racism is not a problem to be “solved” like a flat tire. Flat tire – remove the nail, add air, problem solved! Racism is a tragic part of the human experience. We may not “solve” it but we can reduce it and work to overcome and offset it. I think realistically, only in heaven will the problem be “solved.”
First, we have to understand what racism is (in all its subtleties) and second what does the Bible say about humanity and race?
Racism isn’t simply a black/white issue either. I experienced racism in my first ministry among the indigenous peoples of Canada. The whites treated the Indians often times very badly. Even “Christian” whites.
We are certainly not going to fix racism in the wider culture, but we can certainly model a better way in the church.
So let’s talk about modeling a better way . . . . What does that look like and how do we reach a better way as a habit of life?
This is going to take a genuine change of heart attitude . . . First with regeneration and then with sanctification. An unregenerate man or woman who is a racist cannot do much of anything . . . but a genuine believer should have the beginning of what it will take to change their attitudes. Then we concentrate on careful biblical instruction of the biblical truths of human brotherhood and racial attitudes. Say Gal. 3:28 as a start. I know what the text says . . . let’s talk about what the text entails. Remember the Jews in the NT were racists also (Jn 4:9).
I don’t think we can solve this . . . but we can work to overcome much of our past.
FWIW
Jeff Straub
But this is exactly the point: you are already assuming your conclusion without proving it. We disagree because, while there may be cases of racism, there is no huge problem. “Underrepresentation” is not racism, and Affirmative Action IS racist because it judges people based on the color of their skin rather than character and qualifications. We don’t like your “solutions” for racial reconcilation because we don’t agree with your identification of a problem.
I see this is not really a forum, and you’re deleting comments you don’t like. Nice.
No comments have been deleted.
Could you use your real name?
Step 1: Erase completely from our language and thinking the unbiblical notion of the existence of many different human races. Embrace the biblical truth that there’s only one human race. We are all the same race, regardless the level of melanin in our skin or other physical features.
May I ask you to amplify?
Much of the NT is about the Jew/Gentlile division. Was that not racial? Jesus gathering people from every tribe and tongue. – how do you deal with that?
The JewGentile division is exactly the point. We are taught the preferencial misunderstanding the implications of the gospel….Jesus doesn’t redeem/call based on worldly categories. Our unity in Christ and our family of God connection transcend those temporal distinctions.
That text in Revelation doesn’t teach that Jesus is gathering people *based* on skin tone (actually not mentioned in text), tribes, tongues, etc….he is gathering them based upon His merciful grace extended to *all* who believe –
The apostle John is relaying to us a scene he’s been made privy to – describing it. Exactly none of those people around the throne are there because of skin color, tribe, or nation. The point is the myriads and myriads that no Man can number are all one – one in Christ – the worldly divisions are gone, stripped away – only Jesus – not skin color, tribe etc. remains.
Let’s not hold on to, redesign or exacerbate external divisions when we ought to be rejoicing together in the unity we have with one another in Christ – beyond the temporal. .
only *focus on* Jesus – not on skin color, tribe etc. remains.
Now for a practical suggestion…
Perhaps the trustees could design or find, I’m sure something like this exist in the HR world, a computer system into which they input objective qualifications, expectations, skill sets, etc. (absent skin tone) as resumes are submitted they are collected on that server. All identifying information including name, is redacted from matching reports and Each applicant is assigned a number. ( this may actually require a trusted person to put eyes on it to ensure that as much identifying information as possible is removed.). I’m not an expert on these matters… Obviously… But perhaps you can see what I’m getting at even if the specifics aren’t up to snuff. Like I said I’m betting that there is some type of software, hiring resources out there that do this sort of thing.
When the search committee begins to examine the reports… They are examining by an objective standard without identifying information …. then as they screen down to a manageable subset of “numbers” for the next steps of the process – they can then honestly say that skin color wasn’t a determining factor in the culmination of the final subset of resumes. No passing over and no selections based on skin color.
When it Comes to interviews… Obviously they’re going to know who they are – and thier skin tone (Unless you go to the extreme of putting the applicant behind the curtain and using voice disguising software or something… LOL that’s a joke…)
Seriously, if the culmination of the final subset of resumes results is all or mostly minority applicants, wonderful praise the Lord!
If the culmination of the final subset of resumes results in all or mostly white applicants, wonderful praise the Lord!
Why wonderful praise the Lord in both outcomes? Because I’m willing to bet that The final pools of applicants will include minorities… as many are undoubtedly qualified… And as a result more minority hires will necessarily take place than under the current “system” of looking at friends.
Also it would be very hard for anyone to say “well that is just a token minority”… Because they were objectively a part of the final subset completely apart from their minority status.
Reading these posts is a fascination to me; I have not complained in the past—but have read many of the posts and ‘comments.’ I believe the problem lies in the ‘assumption’ of racism in all churches—or even in some churches. Is an all ‘white’ church in the middle of Nebraska racist merely because there is a lack of ‘blacks’ to attend? Are all ‘white’ churches in the ‘deep south’ automatically racist because of location? We need to be careful, because by implication we are stating that traditionally all ‘black’ churches in the south are racist by their lack of ‘whites’?
The assumption of racism is compounded by the self-flagellation of past sins of racism. You do NOT move forward by cringing in the past. If you or the church have repented, then it is time to ‘be free’ and move forward in that freedom.
Which brings me to my main point. Talk is cheap. More forums to ‘talk’ about racism are nothing more than the appearance of progress. They seldom produce any progress; and often devolve into complaining sessions (I’m being charitable here). Yes, I know what I’m talking about; I worked near a Reservation—we did not even begin to overcome the hatred until we stopped talking and started ‘doing’ together to solve common problems—outside of statements, outside of forums. So once again, it seems to me that we are ‘stuck’ with James 1: 22-25…be doers, not hearers or in this case ‘talkers.’
The best way to overcome racism, or even the perception of racism, is to work together on common projects for Jesus…evangelism, feeding poor, etc. Co-located churches should have no problem teaming together to ID problems and excute actions to solving those problems! None! Then..and only then…do we PROVE we are one race in Jesus; then we are one race in deed and not in word (talk). Racism, if and where it exists, requires a change of heart—and only God changes hearts.
Incidentally, I believe it would also help to stop adopting and incorporating the verbiage of the Marxists when addressing Christian issues—I have always found the Bible adequate unto itself.
Well actually I have seen close to zero solutions on this website.
Second, racism is sin. You cant get rid of sin in someone else’s heart. You can only repent of your own sin.
So the first step is that who ever is racist, they need to repent.
Third. If you find that a fellow believer is acting, by word or deed, in a rascist manner, yiu are to go to him or her abd rebuke them privately. If that doesnt work, take two or three with you. If they still dont repent, bring them before the congregation. If they still fail to repent, treat them as an unbeliever.
Outside of the church, in a broad sense, you declare racism a sin. And that sinners stand condemned before a holy God, and only through repentance and by faith in Jesus can one be forgiven and restored to a right relationship with God. In other words, you prech the Gospel.
The above is how a Christian is supposed to deal with racism, and any other sin, whether their own or of the brethren, or of the world.
“How would YOU solve racism and bring greater racial participation in the SBC? Or do you think things are fine as they are?”
I don’t have the answers for any of these. Thanks for giving a forum to those who do (or who think they do).
For those who have opposed the solutions proffered on this blog, would any care to explain to me what they are and why you opposed them?
Anyone?
Step 2: For those who are in Christ, Christ should become your identity. Recognize that worldly categories of black Christian, white Christian, Asian Christian, Hispanic Christian, and so on are identities brought in from the world based on racial categories that our sin nature uses to promote division and that the devil loves to exploit. We’re just Christian.
We don’t need racial camps. There’s only one camp.
Step 3. Celebrate ethnic diversity in Christ. Picture Revelation 5. We should never advocate for “colorblindness.” That’s impossible. What we should advocate for is “color celebration.” I’m thankful that the Kingdom of God is filled with every shade of skin color and ethnicity.
Ben Simpson,
Colorblindness doesnt mean we dont see how much melatonin is in another’s skin, but that we dont judge that other person based on it.
Michael, that’s what some mean by it, but lots of folks go farther and say that they literally don’t even see other’s blackness or whiteness or Asianness. That absurd.
We notice people’s differences and should celebrate it to God’s glory.
I have not seen anyone who advocates for “colorblindness” on this site suggest not noticing ones skin tone…that is absurd and not possible. What has been suggested is that skin tone should not be seen as a qualifier or dis-qualifier for a job, a basis of character, etc… (We have been told that such notions have happened on the site but are deleted or have been emailed to admins…..Thankfully I do not see the deleted comments or emails to editors. I absolutely do take them at their word.)
In fact I and others have advocated for viewing persons just as MLK did…. “not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
There is only one way to stop racism.
It is to love your neighbor as yourself.
First, it is to clearly define racism – the sin of showing partiality on the basis of race.
When God delivered what we know to be the second commandment, this is what He said in Leviticus 19:
“15 ‘You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly. 16 You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor; I am the Lord.
17 ‘You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may surely reprove your neighbor, but shall not incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
This commandment, the Second Commandment, is repeated by Jesus in the NT. What Jesus meant when he said to love your neighbor as yourself is found in these verses.
These instructions clearly show that no partiality is to be shown among people, we are not to slander other people and accuse them of things they have not done, and we are not to hold grudges for past wrongs.
The NT also says that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.
If racism is defined, however, by statistical disparities without actual proof of ongoing racism, then efforts to “stop racism” are not really efforts to stop racism. They are efforts to correct statistical disparities among groups which may or may not be due to ongoing racism. If ongoing racism can be shown, it should be opposed and the situation corrected. If ongoing racism cannot be shown, the statistical disparity is not due to ongoing racism.
Second, eliminate any racist practices. If partiality is show to people on the basis of race, that must stop. And it must stop with regard to whomever it is practiced against, for whatever reason.
Third, as a practical matter, invitations should be extended for all to participate. We cannot just limit opportunities to certain racial groups and not others.
And that is how to end racism.
I have quoted Chief Justice Roberts, and do so again, “The way to stop discriminating against people on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”
Louis,
Yep, its all pretty simple. The problem is when some or even many don’t want to do just that: stop discriminating against people based on skin color. Then others feel like programs or whatever must be enacted to ‘stop’ racism. Good works and good programs cant stop others from sinning. Social Justice, as defined by most, cant stop racism or any other discrimination due to sin because good works and good programs cant change sinners’ hearts. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t help those in need, butwe can never help enough because we are not treating the root of the problem.
Racism comes from fear. Fear comes from a lack of experience. If white churches and black churches swapped pulpits for more than a Sunday maybe that would help.
Good idea
This is important, because I think the perpetually white leadership structure is not so much overt racism as it is drawing from your circle. The white leadership will draw from their white circle because those are the people they know. Sure they’ve met black people and may even like them, but that’s not the same thing. Start hanging out with people who aren’t like you. But to do that, you have to acknowledge that differences in skin color might mean other differences.
I love this idea! To my knowledge, I was the first and only pastor so far at Springer Church to have a black man in the pulpit. I’ve never pastor swapped though, that’s a great idea.
John, I think the same is true at my church too.
Dave Miller,
You and I seem to end up on opposite sides of the arguments here. I am not sure how that happens. I suspect we are closer to each other in our positions than we think we are. I also suspect, in regards to this post, that you are either still upset or angry about the social justice discussion. You must understand however, that many people’s experiences with social justice is the type that was described by Dr. Mohler in the first few minutes of that chapel video. It is the kind that is rampant on university campuses right now. To be against social justice does not make one a racist. It is this very reason that definitions are so important.
To the point of this discussion, I offer three points of view, which are not very different from each other. How to deal with racism?
In the movie “Gettysburg” the fictitious character Kilrane is in a discussion with the commander of the 2nd Maine regiment, Colonel Joshua Chamberlain. In the discussion Kilrane says “Only a pea-wit judges by the group. You take men one at a time.” Tied to that idea are the words of Martin Luther King Jr. when he said, “I dream of a day when my children are judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.” And finally, Morgan Freeman, when asked by Dan Rather what should be done are race in America, said this, “Quit talking about it.”
I think when Americans can stop seeing race and when we (Americans) start to deal with people according to the type of people they are, we will make a quantum leap forward. This is my feeble attempt at adding to this conversation.
Has anyone thought about the obvious? How many of you have attended a black church? There is no place on earth more uplifting and loving on a Sunday morning. My former husband took me to some churches in the Chicago area. Great places and when the Spirit hit, the nurses came out. I’ve never enjoyed church more. But I didn’t belong there. And I’m convinced they’d not be comfortable at my church. We both love the Savior, but our worship styles are vastly different.
When I was young, I lived in the Potrero Housing project. O J Simpson was my neighbor. The tenants were mostly black. The treatment I received was welcoming. Later, when I was in the Navy, I was teaching young adults medical skills. Here is a fact, I could not pry the black students away from each other. Nothing short of a mandatory seating chart would have changed that. I had this vision in my mind of the races working together for the gospel.
I have lived in black neighborhoods, a black husband, worshipped with blacks. People search out comfort and like minded beliefs.
What about Brown v Board of Education? Forcing people to be, where they do not want to be is pointless. It breeds contempt for authority. It’s the very definition of discrimination.
There is not a single thing any of us can do, to undo the past. Frankly, we aren’t responsible for it. Our ancestors are. No taskforce, affirmative action or machinations of men will stop it. We should keep stepping, fixing our eyes on Jesus.
There is a book that everyone should read. It’s semi-autobiographical based on the life of Christopher Paul Curtis. The title is The Watson’s go to Birmingham – 1963. Most can read it in a day. It’s all about perspective.
A couple of thoughts:
-On hiring: I like the database suggestion. When all resumes are whittled down by computer and eyes actually start seeing candidates, then you can take race into suggestion. For instance, if 500 applicant resumes come forward for President of the Executive Committee, then program a database with all pertinent requirements and expectations and let program whittle down to 10-20. At that point, if any minority (Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) is in the list, I have no problem considering them first. Understand when the call for minority leaders is issued, it sounds as if you’re saying toss out resumes of white men. What if the absolute best qualified candidate is a white male? It does sound like affirmative action.
-On racial composition of the church: I have a mixed congregation (97% white, 2% black, 1% other). I say that’s mixed for a few reasons. First, of the few churches I’ve pastored, it’s has more ethnicity than any other. Second, Morgan County, WV’s population as of July, 2017 is just over 17,600. Of that, blacks (countywide) are 0.8%. Native American is 0.3% and Asian is 0.4%. White is 96.8%. So for me to have two young black people in my congregation is huge!
-Further racial differentiation: While we’re all human and we’re all children of God, there are differences in the culture of races. They are neither good nor bad, just different. Tony Campola (who I do not care for) goes to a predominantly African American church. His reason was that whites can’t preach like blacks. His words! While I don’t care for his word choice, he is right. One of my homiletics books has a chapter on the African American preaching style. Fred Luter’s convention sermons had me on the edge of my seat. It’s a different style. And predominantly Black SBC churches differ in that from predominantly White SBC churches. I know whites who go to black churches for that very reason.
On actual racism: There are two ultimate conclusions I draw on racism in the SBC. First, what many have concluded as racism (the current leadership landscape, political opinions, etc.) is not real racism. It’s opinion. However, racism does exist, even in the SBC. The link at the bottom of this comment is to a very disturbing article. Where racism exists, it must be opposed with every ounce of our being!
I look forward to seeing a minority (or two) among the new entity leaders in the SBC, namely because they will be the most uniquely qualified, not because they’re a minority. I look forward to another minority SBC President, perhaps Latino, not because they’re Latino but because they’re a hardcore devil stomping expository ninja who loves Missions! I look forward to our current white hardcore Devil stopping mission minded ninja President and how he plans to address racism and sexual abuse! I look forward to the future of the SBC!
http://www.bpnews.net/47325/racism-alleged-as-part-of-pastors-termination
To seek a solution to the problem of race relations is circular reasoning. It assumes the premise that there ACTUALLY IS a solution. What solutions have already been implemented? Integration? Busing? Voting right acts? Affirmative action? Look at where these solutions have gotten us. Are the solutions that you are proposing going to improve race relations or just – by their failure – are they going to lead to another litany of new solutions? The truth of the matter that everyone knows, is that there is only one solution – a change of heart. Unless you are trusting in the only One who can do that, there will be no peace. And if you think the old saying of “Don’t just stand there, do something” is going to help, that is no more productive than saying ” Don’t just do something, stand there”. You can’t pat yourself on the back and say “Well, at least God knows I tried”. Like the song says, “The heart of the matter is a matter of the heart”. The us v them mentality has never done anything but make matters worse.
Another suggestion…
Rather than a top down approach and advocacy – which never really accomplishes even the noblest of goals in the political world or in the SBC….I am not a fan of top down approach. Its like the local church, the association and the state conventions are being stepped over while the “national” convention is looked to as the “battleground’.
I think the battleground is much more localized.
Perhaps we all should model what we think racial reconciliation should look like in our churches. Meet with other pastors face to face and share with them our ideas…seek ideas from them. Work together as associations to facilitate reconciliation. Let’s lead our association leadership to do the same with thier peers and the state convention folks when they can. Then encourage our state conventions to nominate people who share the vision to the SBC nominating committee who will do the same. Bottom up.
In other words – a real grass roots effort starting in our own churches. I am sure that all of us who opine here have a long way to go in these areas and we all should understand that the contexts of our churches (culture, location, current issues being addressed, etc.) might lead us to be at different points and emphasis on these issues.
I am not saying “y’all” are not doing these things….I know many of you are….I am simply sharing a positive suggestion.
One of the mechanisms at work here is that whatever “farm system” is in place in the SBC primarily consists of white guys. One reason that may be is because there are non SBC Baptist denominations which have historically consisted of non-white congregations. So people that are non-white tend to gravitate to the churches that their parents went to. Young people in these churches, who are entering ministry, naturally tend to follow the footsteps of pastors and leaders they know in the churches they attend. They naturally follow in the footsteps of their mentors. Many of these “footsteps” are likely not SBC pathways.
How about this? Do any of you think it is feasible for the SBC to merge with one of the historically black, historically Asian, and/or historically Latino Conventions? In business sometimes a merger is the best way to reach critical mass. Sometimes mergers are the best way to achieve the desired “market share” because organic growth in certain “segments” is very difficult.
There is precident for denominational mergers. As I recall several Methodist denominations merged to form what is now the United Methodist Church. It is simplistic to consider that the Methodists are a template for what could happen with Baptists. But I think that if our goal is to have a more racially diverse population in the SBC we ought to consider some type of “joint venture” with one or more traditionally non-white Baptist groups. I think history shows that becoming ethnically diverse organically just won’t happen at more than a snail’s pace. The SBC is making some progress, but it could be time to shift into a higher gear.
I honestly don’t know this statistic. But here is my question. Take several of the Baptist Conventions which have been traditionally black or Hispanic. On a percentage basis have these groups grown faster than the SBC. If the answer is yes then maybe we should join up with them or emulate them or open up joint ventures with them in order to ramp up operations in certain geographical locations such as the 20 fastest growing regions in the the southern half of the USA — say from LAX to Atlanta, including Houston, New Orleans, Birmingham, DFW, Phoenix, Miami, etc.
We don’t think that we have to do this alone do we?
Mr Tarheel:
I see some resonance between your idea and mine. A laboratory demo would be to stage a prototype effort in say Raliegh – Durham NC which would be a “local” effort. Maybe one church would be Cline’s Corners Baptist Church [SBC], one would be Bautista Trinidad [a church in a Latino Baptist convention] and one would be the New Greater Jerusalem Church of God in Christ. There might be some synergy in getting ad-hoc combinations like this together to setup congregations in inner city transitional areas as well as the suburban ring around major cities. I don’t know the extent that this idea has been modeled. If all the participating churches happened to be SBC then of course this would be OK.
If this takes root then 20 years from now leadership springing from these consortiums would “automatically” be of a racial mix which mirrors the places where the people are. To use my term we would then have a deeper “bench” with people of various ethnicities ready to pick up the mantle.
I made up the names of these churches. But I think Cline’s Corners has a certain ring to it, don’t you?
The Church has not been called to resolve racism but rather call sinners to be saved. Historical racism spans centuries and is present today all over the world in all cultures. Why? Because it is rooted in the demonic scheme to pit one group versus another. Today’s popular trend is men versus women, old versus young, and white versus minorities. This is compounded by attempts to apologize for things that happened centuries ago, which no person can do as they are only accountable to a Holy God for themselves. Solution proposal…get back to the gospel call that unites all Christians into one family. Continued efforts to favor any group or persons over another is sin, validated by His example “God is no respector of persons.” Calling attention to sin and a Savior who offers grace and mercy is most urgent. It debunks the error that man is basically good in today’s world. Until and unless Baptists repent and get back to the mandate of scripture the divisions, bitterness, name calling, and hatred will expand. May God have mercy and grace on us all!
Would you also say, “The church has not been called to oppose abortion, but to call sinners to be saved?”
Just wondering.
If I may point out, Rudd’s statement said “The Church has not been called to resolve racism…” RESOLVE and OPPOSE do not mean the same thing when inserted into his sentence. You get two different meanings depending on which word you use. I would venture to guess that Rudd ALSO opposes racism.
So we can oppose abortion but not resolve it?
Racism and abortion grieves the Holy Spirit as does all sin in a lost dying world. The powerful message of grace and mercy beacons the heart of all mankind to change. Our task is to present His word (not our) believing the Holy Spirit’s power to change lives. He welcomes all at the cross….that life changing message transcinds all time and culture.
Yes. After how many years has it been opposed and not resolved? Plus, it doesn’t look like there will be a resolution anytime soon.
Thats right Dave.
We can not resolve it.
It was done when it was illegal. It will be done legally or illegally.
Neither can we resolve racism.
In fact we have a better chance at abortion. Racism is in the heart of man. Even i the heart of those who can ti be Christian. I hope they especially, repent.
Neither can we resolve any of the ills of society.
We have two ‘weapons’ which are not weapons at all.
1] The Gospel
2] Our good works.
1] Preaching the Gospel isnt us changing society. It is being obedient to our Lord, who through the Spirit changes hearts. Maybe society as a whole changes,and maybe not.
2] Our good works. These are not meant to change society, and they have no power to do so. They are how we are to relate to the folks around us, or through others around other folks [like giving to the IMB].
These good works have no power to stop injustice. Thus they can not and do not bring about social justice. But in doing them we act justly towards our neighbors, thus we should do them for we are our Father’s children.
That is what Jesus did. He didn’t change Jewish society so they would act more justly. He treated those hurt by the injustices of the world.Neither Paul nor the other Apostles seek to change society for the better. Instead they took care of the hurting among them and around them, gave for others [notably for the poor in Jerusalem] and preached the Gospel.
Pretty simple, I know.
But it works as God plans it.
What more shoud we then do?
A the risk of being called a heretic I would say not as a primary calling. The church main business is to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That he died for our sins according to the scriptures was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. That is our primary calling.
We need to be clear on the categories. Abortion is an activity. Racism is a matter of the heart. There are some outworkings of racism that we can oppose as a convention. Changing the heart is a matter that must take place within each church in the due course of its ministry of sanctifying individual members by the power of the Holy Spirit.
A decade or so ago the NFL made a rule stating a minority had to be considered for all new head coaching positions. But today that rule is not necessary. Many black coaches have excelled. No team has a hard time considering a minority and few fans even think about the race of their team-‘s head coach. I believe this is a good model for the SBC to follow.
Hi Dave,
I am not sure why everyone seems to have forgotten that we have hired a minority as an entity head. Geoff Hammond was South African. He was white but he was a cultural minority. Things didn’t work out so well either. The first criteria for any of our entity heads is that they have to be able to relate well to the convention’s primary culture and secondly but just as importantly across the cultural spectrum of our convention.
Stop deleting comments, not just on this post, but on all posts here that deal with race. Even the comments that make you (you – those running SBC Voices) angry.
Acknowledge there are opposing viewpoints with which you disagree, but they are nevertheless legitimate, valid viewpoints.
Don’t obsess over every racial incident. Most do not need protests and riots. They just need time for police, grand juries, courts to deal with them. Some, when all is said and done, were not even about race.
Realize sometimes Black folks are right and White folks are wrong. But also realize sometimes Black folks are wrong and White folks are right.
Hold Black folks just as responsible as Whites, or any other race, when they do wrong. Anything less is patronizing.
Treat people in a colorblind way, like Martin Luther King and Justice Roberts have suggested. No side should want special rights, just equal rights.
Seek to understand not just Black Culture, but also White Culture and other cultures. Sometimes what one perceives as racist, is really just a failure to understand and accept each other.
Example: Virtually every White child has been called a monkey because they are so lively and full of energy. They sing, “Three Little Monkeys Jumping on the Bed.” But woe to a White person who forgets and, in this way treats a Black person like he does a White person. Sometimes, there needs to be a little margin for error. A little understanding and compassion. Yes, the word “monkey” can be racist, but often it is not.
Realize not everything that looks racist to you, really is racist.
Allow more than one viewpoint about racial issues. For example, include views by people such as Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, etc. Consider viewpoints from sources like townhall.com.
Just because someone does not change his mind does not mean he is hardhearted. Stop belittling them. After all, you don’t change your mind about these issues either.
You can be too sensitive about race.
Too often when someone says let’s have a dialogue about race, it really means, “You on the other side, sit down and shut up and listen to me talk about race.” Have a “real” dialogue.
We all experience slights every week. Some are too quick to chalk that down to racism. Often it is not; it is just someone acting like a jerk, regardless of race.
But yes, we will always have racism. May we properly identify it, and properly deal with it.
David R. Brumbelow
David, you are the guy who, when given multiple opportunities to say something, anything against misogyny, repeatedly refused to do so because, presumably, your hero was indirectly involved. While your comments are almost always welcomed here, your lecture may lack ethical backing. Regardless, it’s up for all to see.
cordially…
William,
I’ve spoken plenty of times against hatred and mistreatment of women, including some of my previous replies to you. Perhaps you should reread them.
I answered your questions, just not the way you apparently wanted me to answer them. That is not the same as saying I did not answer them.
I also acknowledge there is some extremism in the MeToo movement. Sometimes men need to be protected and defended against false accusations (many women are also concerned about their husbands, sons, fathers, brothers being falsely accused).
I’m a big believer in fairly hearing both sides; a privilege not always extended to people like Paige Patterson. Patterson is my friend, yet I understand your use of “hero” is pejorative.
David R. Brumbelow
Racist comments will continue to be deleted. And comments that troll or take the conversation in wrong directions.
Actually, we are more likely to exert MORE control over the discussion than less. I’ve recently re-engaged at the Baptist Review which exercises tight moderation and has very sensible discussions. I’d like to see us establish policies more like they have and much stricter moderation so that discussions would be MORE productive than LESS control which tends to lead to LESS productive discussions.
You have been given almost complete free commenting privilege here, with few exceptions. You complain regularly about moderation FAR MORE than you get moderated.
Solutions to Racism:
1. a. Recognize racism is not a root issue, it is a derivative issue, part of a more basic root issue of predjudice and preferential treatment that spans ALL differences among people and groups of people. Whether the differences are theological, income, cultural, social, skin-color, physical fitness, driving habits, eating habits, city/rural, etc… We ALL are predisposed to identify more with those more similar to us, and to have more negative attitudes toward those who are more different than us. For example: I think I drive about the right speed most of the time, those who go slower are slow-pokes…those who go faster are speed demons. Those who go a bit faster probably consider me a slow-poke.
b. Because of (a) above, recognize that in our intra-baptist discussions of issues, whether social justice or calvinism, the tendencies that cause us to group those who differ with us as “the opposition” are THE SAME type of tendencies that cause some people to automatically attribute negative attributes to those who have dark skin color. This is not mean to stifle debate, as I believe fruitful debate of issues is both possible and necessary. But, if my primary attitude toward those who OPPOSE RACISM DIFFERENTLY THAN I DO is to exclude, marginalize, demean, ostracize them, not allow their voice to be heard because I don’t understand their perspective…then I am condoning in one area of division the very thing I say I am opposing in the area of skin color.
2. ON the issue of entity hiring: “Race”, as it is being used incorrectly in these discussions (since we are all one race), in our world constitutes MORE than skin color. A person of african, or hispanic, or asian lineage brings with him/her a lifetime of differing cultural experiences that MAY prepare him to be more qualified for a particular position than a similarly educated/gifted white person. In a position like the IMB president, for example, to ignore the vast differences in cultural experience when considering candidates would not be a complete vetting process. It may be that the final few candidates resumes look similar, but that the life experiences of one candidate in a differing culture, even if still in North America, qualify one better for a certain position. So while I would be opposed to hiring a minority based only on skin color, I does make sense to consider hiring a minority for some purposeful job in which the cultural experiences of living in a minority culture uniquely qualify them for that position.
Thanks for reading, sorry for the length,
-Andy
I have to say that within the convention, I don’t know beans about hiring to work in the convention. If qualified individuals are not being hired because they are a minority race, then it needs to stop. What we shouldn’t get into is not hiring qualified people because they are not a minority race and going on a search to find someone who is the race we are looking for in order to appease minorities.
We also need to get out of the mindset that we are represented by people other than the messengers of our churches. The president or entity heads don’t represent us. They were placed by the messengers or those appointed by the messengers in order to do a job. It’s not a political republic. It’s a cooperation of individual churches. If we want to import representation into the mix, white people need to be okay with being “represented” by black people and black people need to be okay with being “represented” by white people. It goes both ways.
We should encourage churches to pursue godliness with regard to race. There are indeed plenty of individuals, both black and white, who are not well-sanctified in this regard. Those people should be loved and worked with individually. How likely that is to happen, I don’t know. We should be in constant prayer, not just for this sin, but for all sin in the churches of the SBC. My wife is the ministry coordinator for our local CEF chapter. She has over 40 churches working Good News Clubs in schools in several counties. Some churches have good cultures where sin is handled well and people grow to be mature Christians. Some churches are filled with spiritually childish people who get into squabbles that make the kids they are supposed to be ministering to look mature. Some churches are simply not going to change any time soon. Others are more amenable to it. We need to love and work with churches all along this spectrum with kindness, maturity, firmness, and compassion, realizing that only God can change them. Therefore, the greatest tool we have is prayer.
Individually, we have the example of Christ who forgave those who killed him. Are we being treated unjustly – white, black, or otherwise? We need to have compassion on our brothers and sisters who are still being sanctified. We also need to understand that we are still being sanctified ourselves and need mercy from our fellow Christians. We can’t afford to be playing the “I’m more sanctified than you” game. That only works against sanctification.