Mercutio was caught in the middle of the warring houses of Montague and Capulet. He ended up getting killed during a battle between Romeo and Tybalt – an unintended but tragic consequence of the blood-feud that had gripped Verona.
We are Verona, and the Calvinist Montagues are in battle against the non-Calvinist, “traditionalist” Capulets. Both sides claim the others started it. Both claim that they are serving God and that the other side is the one responsible for most of the trouble. “It was them! We only responded to what they did.” This “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” attitude that pervades Southern Baptists risks leaving us all blind and toothless.
And the SBC is Mercutio. While we fight with one another, the innocent victim is the SBC and its missions program. This ancient feud, which has gone on since the beginning of the SBC’s existence, has the possibility of leaving our convention dead in the streets.
There is a job to be done – a Great Commission given us by our Commander. And as long as we are biting and devouring one another, we are not coming against the principalities and powers, we are not threatening the kingdom of darkness, we are not fulfilling the purpose of our redemption.
And so, I say with Mercutio, “A plague on both your houses.”
No, I don’t really wish anyone harm, but I wish the attitudes of pride, division, one-upsmanship and anger that govern so much of our conversation would be sent back to hell where they belong.
Of course, we need to have serious discussions about theology. But this nonsense has to stop. We have to lay down our arms and decide that Calvinists who ascribe to the BF&M and “traditionalists” who ascribe to the BF&M can unite in ministry and mission while we continue to disagree on some secondary and tertiary issues.
Can I remind the SBC’s passionate Calvinists and equally passionate “traditionalists” of one thing.
Romeo and Juliet did not have a happy ending.
If I get some angry comments from both Calvinists and nons, my job will be done here.
angry comment
Maybe we need at least a 2-week rest from talk for or against Calvinism on sbcvoices?
Anyone who uses the words “Calvin” “Calvinism” “Traditional” “Acts 29” “Reformed” “Arminian” “Biblicist” or “John 3:16” gets banned from the site until the 2013 convention?
Exceptions being of course, actually talking about the John 3:16 Bible verse without reference to any of the other words above, and the inclusion of “and Hobbes” immediately after “Calvin” or a call to play “Calvinball.”
Wow, that would be both blessed and strange.
Well I certainly won’t claim innocence on my part, but we’ve beat this dead horse into cheap dog food, and we’re still beating it.
woof
(burp)
Truthfully, if readers of “Calvin and Hobbes” would have simply allowed readers of the actual “John 3:16 Bible verse” to sign the statement and populate the list, all of this drama might have been avoided.
Presumably, years ago, the Founders took quite a while to generate the list of members who believe like they do. Make no mistake–that ruffled some feathers, but did so over a period of time. By contrast, this all happened in just about a day–almost 200 signers, 400 comments and 10,000 hits.
I think things will simmer down once everyone gets used to the idea that Southern Baptists have two organized soteriological subdivisions rather than merely one.
John 3:16 please ban me for using that….
Careful there, Tybalt.
Thanks, Dave!
Maybe we can meet here.
I was listening to Christian radio as I drove today and heard an old song by Charlie D. Tillman simply called “Ready”. It was Copyright in 1903.
Ready to suffer grief or pain, Ready to stand the test;
Ready to stay at home and send Others if He sees best.
Chorus
Ready to go, ready to stay, Ready my place to fill:
Ready for service, lowly or great, Ready to do His will.
Ready to go, ready to bear, Ready to watch and pray;
Ready to stand aside and give, Till He shall clear the way.
Ready to speak, ready to think, Ready with heart and brain;
Ready to stand where He sees fit, Ready to stand the strain.
Ready to speak, ready to warn, Ready o’re souls to yearn;
Ready in life, Ready in death, Ready for His return.
If we were ready there wouldn’t be a need to be right.
Good post, Dave
Dave – I’m not saying I’m right – But if I agree with you then we are both wrong !
How could anyone give this an angry comment, Dave? It’s a fair statement.
That’s precisely why I don’t like this whole document being released….it is dividing up people that need not be divided and distracting us from the needed focus. Let’s let secondary issues remain secondary.
Good word, Dave.
Thank you for a voice of reason.
And for anyone who insisting that God is the Primary Cause of evil being the world . . . there is this to think about:
God is the Source of all that is good.
‘evil’ is simply the absence of good.
Yes, I’ve come across that before in the City of God. Augustine was Greek-influenced, but his statement may be on target.
ROMIE-MILLER
26 O, speak again, bright angel! for thou art
27 As glorious to this night, being o’er my head
28 As is a winged messenger of heaven
29 Unto the white-upturned wondering eyes
30 Of mortals that fall back to gaze on him
31 When he bestrides the lazy puffing clouds
32 And sails upon the bosom of the air.
CB-IET
33 O Romie-Miller, Romie-Miller! wherefore art thou Romie-Miller?
34 Deny thy father and refuse thy name;
35 Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
36 And I’ll no longer be a Capulet.
ROMIE-MILLER (TO HIS SWEET SELF)
37 Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?
CB-IET
38 ‘Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
39 Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
40 What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
41 Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
42 Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
43 What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
44 By any other name would smell as sweet;
45 So Romie-Miller would, were he not Romie-Miller call’d,
46 Retain that dear perfection which he owes
47 Without that title. Romie-Miller, doff thy name,
48 And for that name which is no part of thee
49 Take all myself.
ROMIE-MILLER
49 I take thee at thy word.
50 Call me but love, and I’ll be new baptized;
51 Henceforth I never will be Romie-Miller.
CB-IET
52 What man art thou that thus bescreen’d in night
53 So stumblest on my counsel?
ROMIE-MILLER
53 By a name
54 I know not how to tell thee who I am:
55 My name, dear saint, is hateful to myself,
56 Because it is an enemy to thee;
57 Had I it written, I would tear the word.
CB-IET
58 My ears have not yet drunk a hundred words
59 Of that tongue’s utterance, yet I know the sound:
60 Art thou not Romie-Miller and a Montague?
ROMIE-MILLER
61 Neither, fair saint, if either thee dislike.
CB-IET
62 How camest thou hither, tell me, and wherefore?
63 The orchard walls are high and hard to climb,
64 And the place death, considering who thou art,
65 If any of my kinsmen find thee here.
ROMIE-MILLER
66 With love’s light wings did I o’er-perch these walls;
67 For stony limits cannot hold love out,
68 And what love can do, that dares love attempt;
69 Therefore thy kinsmen are no stop to me.
CB-IET
70 Well bless your New York Yankee heart.
Wow.
I’m not sure whether to applaud or throw up. I’ll let you know.
I’m leaning toward applause right now, but I’ll ruminate a while.
LOL
I love it!!!
DAVID,
C.B. is not a tame Baptist, you know.
But he is good.
🙂
“A Plague on Both Your Houses” – The Calvinism Debates in the SBC
Ergo, the best place is to sit imperiously atop the middle of the fray and look down upon the partisan combatants and blow the whistle for fouls and infractions as the much-needed Tone Police and Civility Enforcers.
So, am I safe to assume that was not an “amen!”?
Line from Cold Mountain, “I imagine God is weary of being called down on both sides of an argument.”
Been trying to work this one out for myself — posting this: http://loomnwheel.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/grace-is-not-a-code-word/ and then this: http://loomnwheel.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/grace-is-a-code-word/ in answer to some of the spirited(?) conversation that goes on over this issue.
Evil, then, does not exist in a positive sense. This must be why people can die eternally.
I’m having a hard time figuring out what you are talking about.
I’m recalling a comment by Augustine. Of course he was influenced by Greek thought which may have given rise to the “evil is the absence of good” notion. We would all agree that evil is deliberate and wrong. But it’s not a part of God’s intent or His creation. It’s failing to live up to that.
Going with the running metaphors. The question must be asked…
Who/what is going to be Friar Lawrence? Or will we ever have one in this “feud”.
Dave,
It’s not the “traditional” non-Calvinists who are adamantly fighting against Calvinism, but the anti-Calvinist Arminians. They’ve simply tried to use the label “non-Calvinist” to include by default all of us who are not Calvinists. However, the quiet, non-Calvinist majority does not suffer from the severe allergy to Calvinism that these ANTI-Calvinists have.
Well, I have been praying for nearly 39 years for the Heavens to drop down (Isa.45:8), for the earth to be filled with His knowledge and glory as the waters cover the sea (Isa.11:9; Hab.2:14; Ps.72:19), the stone cut out of the mountain without human hands to become a great mountain and fill the whole earth (Dan.2), His kingdom to come, and His will to be done right here on earth under these circumstances just as it is being done in Heaven under absolutely favorable circumstances (Mt.6:10), and all of the families of the earth to receive their promised blessing in the seed of Abraham (Gen.12:3). Others have been praying for such a visitation longer than I have. While a meeting de jure has not been called that an agreement as touching such a blessing might be made, the reality of such agreement is de facto.
I was kind of happy about the ending of the movie version. Of course, that’s probably because Leonardo DiCaprio was playing Romeo…
“…I wish the attitudes of pride, division, one-upsmanship and anger that govern so much of our conversation would be sent back to hell where they belong.”
I recall someone writing something about not thinking too highly of oneself. I don’t recall that they also wrote not to think too lowly of oneself. I just had a great discussion with a campus pastor for Liberty who also sees the haughty attitudes as problematic for the SBC.
I am not a learned seminary student. I am a sinner saved by grace 22 years ago. All I know is that to go to heaven you have to acknowledge your sins, know who Jesus is and that He died for them and surrender your life to His lordship. After that, I am to live a Romans 12 life which includes living at peace as much as possible with everyone. Perhaps the reason that Jesus chose unlearned men to be His disciples is because He recognized that education tends to inflate one’s ego. Maybe He saw the Pharisees and how they wanted to debate nuances of the Word rather than striving to obey it. Maybe all of the people in this debate should draw a circle around themself and start asking if they resemble a Pharisee or a disciple. From where this non-seminary person is sitting, the answer is clear. The days are short and the thought of wasting one minute arguing about predestination or were we sinners when we arrived reminds me of the Pharisees asking Jesus was it lawful to pull an ox out of a ditch on Sunday..
Don’t know about arguing “predestination,” but I do know that it is an invitation to begin one’s spiritual pilgrimage…as Dr.Eusden put it in his introduction to his translation of William Ames, The Marrow of Divinity.
I don’t even see this as an issue! It was a brush fire started by a few with a name!
I think it may be short sighted to assume a debate or argument over calvinism will be the downfall of sbc mission life. The downfall will be that most churches are filled with decisions to follow christ, leading to nominal christianity and biblically illiterate people. These people in turn drive young and different people away because it doesn’t fit in their corporate scheme.