I’ll admit it. I was torqued off by Dr. Ezell’s words to his church that disdained bloggers who criticized him. I was not among those bloggers, but I still felt the unfairness of the criticism.
That thread was really active yesterday. But as the day wore on, the comments started to trend a little too negative for my comfort. There seems to be some real anger out there toward the SBC and its leaders and style. I understand that. I get a little frustrated at times.
But I do not think that simply venting our anger is productive. Let’s turn it positive (group hug, everyone).
What would you suggest to Kevin Ezell about how to make NAMB more effective?
Here’s my initial offerings:
1) Focus NAMB’s work where there isn’t a Southern Baptist Church on every street corner.
I’d like to do a little exercise here. Anyone south of the Mason-Dixon line live in a city of around 100,000? Sioux City is just under that. How many Southern Baptist churches does your city have? We have two churches, each of which averages less than 300 in attendance on Sunday morning. And we are a uniquely strong SBC city here in Iowa.
Its a different world in the Northeast, the Midwest, the Great Lakes, the Plains states, the Northwest and the far West. It seems to me that the NAMB focus ought to be outside the Deep South – where SBC churches abound.
2) Ezell and NAMB need to work to assure state conventions in New Work areas (and other areas as well) that they do not hold the state conventions in disdain and disregard.
State convention work in New Work states is dependent on NAMB funding to keep going. There is a general sense up here that NAMB wants to bypass cooperation with state conventions and fly solo in new-work states.
If Ezell and NAMB intend to work with the conventions in partnership and cooperation, they need to say so.
Are things going to change? Of course. They will and they probably should. But at least NAMB could assure state conventions that they are going to work in partnership with them.
3) I hope and pray that Dr. Ezell will be a new leader in convention openness. Where secrecy abounds, so does distrust.
Much of the negativity in yesterday’s comment stream focused on the tendency toward secrecy today. It is counter-productive and creates a climate of distrust.
Trust the people. Tell the people.
Your Turn
What do you think Kevin Ezell needs to do at NAMB? Let’s pretend he is going to read this and tell him what we think needs to happen.
What you said, and, get the folks in the local pews exposed to the possibilities of, and the rewards of, their involvement personally in missions. We send a group of 100+ to a mission field here in the USA, every year. Our church pays for the expenses of everyone (we do have 2 buses and we go where we can drive). We do construction, backyard Bible clubs, and block party outreach. We know how to do these things. I suppose we’d be happy to have folks from other churches who are interested in being involved in such work, or learning… Read more »
With the possible exception of West Virginia, you’re doing missions in the South. How much more gas would it take to go to Philly, Newark, Lake Placid, Bettendorf, Casper or …. International trips regularly figure in a day or two for mission volunteers to take in the sites, plus a day at either end for settling in or wrapping up. What about South Dakota, with a day to view the Black Hills or the badlands? What about Montana, with a day to view Yellowstone or Glacier? What about — you pick the state, there’s something special to see there for… Read more »
Sheila, with obvious exceptions to some churches, at a majority of the churches that I was either employed by or attended, it’s nigh impossible to get a group excited about going to do missions….across town or even in the neighboring state. I dont’ know why, but my thinking is this. IMB has done an incredible job of marketing their missionaries and their activities whereas NAMB has dropped the ball. We had 150 youth want to go to Canada for choir tour one year. The next year, we were going to Texas, 60 showed interest. All of the sudden, people had… Read more »
QUOTE it’s nigh impossible to get a group excited about going to do missions END QUOTE
Bill, I think you hit the proverbial piece of pointed steel on the northern sector!
All the strategies, changes, new stuff, etc. will be about as useful as a new suit on a corpse if we don’t get some grassroots passion about seeing people — neighbor people — saved.
He came under pretty intense fire from some corners regarding his seeming lack of enthusiasm for CP giving as it is currently structured. The question is: Why? Advocates of the status quo will want him to recant, repent, and fall in line. But what if there are serious problems with the CP as it now is? I would encourage him to try to help the SBC understand why he has done what he has done and what ideas he has to make it better. Perhaps directed giving and the CP can coexist, and he can take the lead on how… Read more »
AMEN Bill… AMEN!!!
QUOTE Perhaps directed giving and the CP can coexist END QUOTE I don’t think so because of a perception issue. If the perception is (as you imply) there are problems with the CP approach, people will (have) stopped giving. That’s one problem with “co-existence.” Another is not a matter of perception, but polygamy. Having a CP program along with a directed giving program is like me taking another wife — I don’t see it working. It’s also a little like the “separate but equal” doctrine in the South at one time — the separate part worked well. The equal part… Read more »
Nevermind the fact that the CP tries to assist all the missionaries whereas directed giving supports chosen missionaries, usually members of said church.
Which means that the missionaries who happen to come out of large church will have far more at their disposal than those who come out of a small, rural church…
Dave,
“I’ll admit it. I was torqued off…”
It’s a relief to learn that you are indeed human after all… 🙂
Yeah, like that was ever in doubt.
Hello? Yankees fan? Of course it was in doubt.
Sorry Dave, but a city like yours of 100,000 would not even be on Kevin Ezell’s radar. I serve in a western city of around 150,000. There are only 21 SBC churches in our local association. Our association has been praying, and setting aside money, for a new church plant in our area for three years. We have just called a church planter for this work. He happens to have been a member of Ezell’s church for the last few years. From what I understand when he approached his pastor for help with this church start he was told that… Read more »
Hopefully, that strategy will not be continued at NAMB.
That’s discouraging to hear. sigh.
1. I thoroughly agree with the stop planting churches in the parking lots of existing churches. I live in northwest Louisiana and like I’ve stated in the past, there are literally a hundred plus Southern Baptist Churches within a four parish (country for everyone else) area. We need help in rebranding and re-invigorating the churches in the area, not building even more churches. It’s almost as if we have a complacent older generation and a younger generation with no clue how to focus their desires to do missions in our communities. Like for me, I’d be more than happy to… Read more »
Bill, check your email. Did you see something from me?
Its a good thing, not a bad thing.
But I LOVE getting your emails…
Sarcasm noted and appreciated, sir!
I would honestly encourage Kevin to spend some time looking at what others are doing that are having great success in North America in the area of planting new churches, and reviving older ones.
Also, and I know this will shock some Southern Baptist to learn this but, we are not all alike… we need to allow for, and embrace, our diversity of worship, leadership styles, and theological opinions in the planting of new churches. Planting “Like Minded Churches” can be a great motivation to get others involved.
Grace Always,
I would offer a few suggestions: 1) Cut his own salary. I’m sure it’s pretty high and could use some trimming. Along with that cut his expense account. And ask every Church or organization that invites him to speak to pay his expenses plus a stipend that goes directly to NAMB. Thus, every speaking engagement would be a fund-raising event for NAMB. All that would go a long way to restoring faith in the SBC leadership. 2) Cut the fat at NAMB. Cut positions that don’t directly work with the local Church. Resort missionaries, IS/C2, and even campus ministries that… Read more »
D.R. Randle:
What is Ezell’s salary?
I doubt that is public information.
I don’t want to guess, but I imagine it’s much larger than what is needed to live comfortably in GA. And I figure it is much larger than what he was getting from Highview. But Dave Miller is right – it’s not public info. Either way, taking a cut would show a commitment to utilizing money more effectively.
I’d advise him to look at the untapped resource of plateaued churches. Statistics show that nothing much of the “new stuff” is working. Sure, you will find an anecdote here or there that may give the appearance that other approaches are working, but the raw data suggests that “new is not necessarily better.” If our goal is really to increase Kingdom growth, then planting churches that grow by transfer (or die in two years) will not cut it. I suggest a 5 year commitment to revitalization where the bulk of the money is spent on strenghtening what we already have… Read more »
See D.R.’s post above, #3. This gives me great encouragement to know that if my idea is crazy, at least I’m not alone!
I think the only folks who might see it as crazy are the NAMB folks. I had an interview with a couple of NAMB guys some time back about our associational effectiveness and I told them our Church needed help from NAMB (specifically financial or human resources) in order for revitalization to take place. I later found out that they wrote down that I needed a Stewardship Campaign. I’m not kidding.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
The Southern Baptist Convention is not known for being innovative or forward thinking.
D.R.,
I would be interested in talking to you about off line one day about your interview with the Associational Strategies guys.
C.B.,
Sure, anytime. You can send me an email through my Church’s website – Cleveland Road Baptist in Bogart, GA.
Interesting…
I just read D.R.’s comment. I see the same there as does SSBN. I think D.R.’s number 3 is a valid idea.
So what is the standard of giving to the CP?
Historically speaking of course…
My current church does 15% off the top and I’m thinking the new pastor we got will continue the trend since he was our associate pastor…lol.
If we’re going to castigate someone for 2.2 or even in the 3-4% percent range, what is the standard of giving to the CP?
There is no standard.
Churches are autonomous and can decide what they want to give.
The SBC bylaws have a standard for being able to send messengers, but it is really low.
The governing documents have no standard of giving for executive leadership or trustee leadership.
I think that is a wise policy that has been in place for many years.
Louis is right.
Southern Baptist churches are autonomous……… and hopefully that will always be recognized in the SBC.
Over the past couple of days, I spoke with several ministers that I either regard as a peer and friend or as a mentor. To a man, they all stated that in promoting the CP, the mantra was, “this is the tithe of the church” and as a result, many mid to small size churches give 10% or very close to it to the CP. Now, they all didn’t truly agree with it, but they all stated that it was either how they sold it or their pastors sold it to their respective congregations. So far, among small to mid… Read more »
Also, it’s my understanding that employees with NAMB are almost solely judged on their number of church plants rather than the success of the church plants. Can anyone verify or refute this?
Here are my ideas for Ezell and NAMB. All of this is based on the assumption that they will have a lot more money at their discretion once the state convention partnerships have ended. 1) Fully fund church planters with a good salary and ministry budget for their first year (or two?). After that, gradually lower their funding to zero over the course of the following three to four years. In this time frame, the churches should become self-supporting. 2) Only commission as many church planters as can be funded according to point #1. If funding is good and positions… Read more »
ON Point 5…those places could sure use evangelizing. selahV
Dr. Ezell has inspired me. I am going to ask our state convention to give only 2% to the CP because of admin stuff. The rest will go directly to missionaries and mission trips/projects.
🙂
Sarcasm noted. Any serious advice?
I was joking, but I am also serious. I would suggest the first order of business is to apologize for his unkind remarks.
Hold your breath on that one, Jeff.
Dave, And that is why I think he should not be president. I can handle his poor 2% giving to the CP, but his response to criticism is not worthy of being president of NAMB. He will not listen to his critics, and will only surround himself with yes men.
I thought we were going to keep things positive on this post?
I prefer honest rather than positive. Positive is what has gotten us all into this mess with the prior administrations.
I don’t think we always need to be positive. God stated 8 of his 10 Commandments in the negative.
But we need to seek to be productive. That’s what I’m looking for. We need to face the problems, but do more than just complain about them. Lets work on solutions.
In regard to the whole “church planting” push, I think it would be helpful is we used some of the LifeWay research money to see how much has been spent on church plants and how many church plants last past five years.
My suspcion is we are “funding failure” — and to the tune of millions of dollars.
I think if you did that study on the present efforts you would be exactly right. Right now SBC church plants have a huge failure rate compared to some other organizations. That is why I think it is so important to offer church planters a good salary and budget. If we do that, then we will raise the success rate by attracting talented pastors to plant churches. I don’t claim to be a talented pastor, but my own experience could be an example of what I mean. It bothers me a LOT that there is only one English-speaking SBC church… Read more »
Dan, I read your first comment about moving the headquarters to “anywhere but suburban Atlanta.” Then I read your comment saying, “As for revitalizing current churches (especially churches in the South), I just don’t see that as a high priority for NAMB when when there are so many regions of the US and Canada that have few if any gospel-preaching churches.” What exactly do you want to say to a rapidly changing Southland? Is it, “Thanks for a great birth. I realize the culture is completely changed from what it was when strong churches were basically on every corner and… Read more »
CB, The primary role of a missionary sending agency like NAMB should be to get the gospel where it is not. I’m in favor of churches in the South being revitalized (much more so than planting new churches beside the old ones), but that should not be the role of NAMB. Not everything that’s good and worthwhile falls into the category of missions. I’m also personally biased (aren’t we all?). I’ve served in the South and am now in a “new work” state, and they are like two different worlds. For all the talk of decline in traditional SBC territory,… Read more »
Dan, The failure of the North American Mission Board is in the idea that the agency’s “primary role” is to “get the gospel where it is not.” It is the mission of the Church manifested on earth in local churches to “get the gospel where it is not.” Churches birth churches. NAMB is a Southern Baptist entity. In its proper role it should serve as a resource entity to Southern Baptist churches to aid them to establish Southern Baptist churches all over North America. What we have had for years has been a problem of the “tail trying to wag… Read more »
C.B., why not use some of that money to help the ‘sickly’ Church recover ? Then the Church can do better.
Does ‘autonomous’ mean ‘you’re on your own in times of trouble’?
Don’t mind me . . . I have no idea about how things work, I was just struck by that word ‘sickly’.
CB, AMEN to every word you said… If half the churches in the South die in the next 20 years (and that about what it will be at the current rate of decline) then where will NAMB or the IMB get the necessary funds to do missions? We are loosing our base, and if we don’t wake up to that fact, and make a concerted effort to address the root issues of this decline in the South it will soon be to late. I hate to sound so negative, but we are quite frankly loosing the battle. Things are not… Read more »
CB, I agree with most of what you’re saying. I’m totally in favor of the local churches being the primary senders, etc. I guess I should have stated that explicitly instead of assuming that we’re all on the same page there. But, I think church revitalization should be funded by an entity other than NAMB. We’ve got state conventions, associations, Lifeway, and others that could do that if they wanted to. NAMB should be funding North American missions, not North American maintenance. Would you suggest that the IMB also start funding the revitalization of declining churches in America? Is there… Read more »
We hear it all the time that churches plant churches, not associations or conventions. Yet, the money for plants is channeled through the state conventions instead of the sponsoring churches. So first, I would hope that NAMB money for church planting wouldn’t go to a plant unless the sponsoring church is truly committed and isn’t just a sponsor on paper in order for the plant to get funding. That would eliminate the extra layer and the channeling of funds through the state conventions. Also, if NAMB funded the plant through the sponsor, the state conventions wouldn’t need to employ as… Read more »
Churches should be starting churches and NAMB should be there to assist and equip. I know people would be shocked if they saw how funding was done for some church plants. I know of one plant who’s mother church was just in name and gave no funding towards it. I think it is unhealthy for plants not to have mother churches as well which I have seen happen.
On paper, your approach sounds good. But, without the state convention, any church any where can ask NAMB for funds to start a church. NAMB does not have personnel to help determine STRATEGIC areas for church plants. There are tons of needs, but some are greater and more strategic. I sense a disdain in your post for state conventions; as much as SBC leadership and some others would like to get rid of them, they are necessary and do a vital work. I cannot imagine the chaos without them!!
Jon,
I certainly hold no disdain for state conventions and see your point about the need to determine strategic priorities. That begs several more questions in my mind that really aren’t worth fleshing out in this forum. I’ll just say that I think there’s a greater role for local associations in the process than is being utilized under current relationships and agreements, and will leave it at that. Thanks for your thoughts.
I would encourage NAMB to report how many fully funded missionaries they support. When I see someone say we have 6k missionaries it makes it look like they have 6k fully funded missionaries. Let the churches in the convention know that if you send a guy 400 bucks a month that he or she is counted in that 6k missionary count. When we were seeking funding for a church plant the misconception of pastors and churches we were seeking support from was that NAMB would fund it so go ask them for the money because of the propoganda from NAMB.… Read more »
BINGO!!! How many of those 6K are MSC who get no support from NAMB? THis has been a rub for me for a long time; NAMB implies that all of these folks that are appointed are fully supported by NAMB. Not true.
I’ve been a “NAMB FUNDED” church planter. Fully funded meant: $800 per month for a family of four. They did not want me to have another job. When I took a part time job that would allow me to feed my family and continue the ministry, they cut my support 75%. I’ll bang my drum again: “we have been funding failure to the tune of millions.” And, here’s another unintended negative consequences of State Conventions: they dilute the support and partnership of local churches closest to the areas that need new churches. In many — though not all — cases,… Read more »
It is the responsibility of local churches to plant new churches, not NAMB. It is the responsibility of NAMB to assist and facilitate the local churches in planting new churches. You cannot just say that all new churches will be up and running within the same amount of time, there needs to be more flexibility for the differing circumstances that will challenge each new church during their first few years. Therefore, the best strategy for successful church planting is for NAMB to work with a local church (or group of churches) who will commit to being involved in the oversight… Read more »
The NAMB was doing well when it was called Home Mission Board. A name change without a greater commitment to helping the “down and out” is of little value! 1, Whatever happened to Christian Social Ministries–that was a creative and down-to-earth section which really did what Jesus did to “walk among the outcasts of his day.” 2, There was a great day of cooperation between the HMB / State Conventions / Association–together they could fund ministries which none could do separately. 3, Walk and live financially as close to the field missionaries as possible. Talk with them like Henry Ford… Read more »
Gene,
Good post. Not sure what you mean by #’s 2, 4, 7 but I’m with you on the rest.
Also the role of the state convention…if you depend solely on the sponsoring churches, what happens when someone gets mad? they cut the gifts to the church plant. What happens when the sponsoring goes through a period of low giving? They cut gifts to the church plant. There is a need for the state convention to be involved.
Jon, you have a very low view of the church and a naively high view of State Conventions. This is like our addiction to government and welfare. The church does not buck the welfare system because some of the leaders feel they need government help in caring for the needs of the world. I think we all know how that story is turning out. You say: take the church’s money and give it to the State because the church cannot be trusted. I say, if you don’t trust the church to do missions, don’t take their money. As I said,… Read more »
I would reverse that and say that while Jon may have a low view of the church (I’m not sure that is accurate), you have an extremely low view of state conventions.
I don’t know where you live, but in Iowa our state convention is a source of encouragement and support. I don’t think you should be so quick to do away with them.
I will admit this – I’m not sure we need BOTH state conventions and local associations anymore. With internet connectivity, we could probably do without one or the other.
Dave, I’m in California. And, if you read my post you notice I said, “many State Conventions, not all.” You outline the problem well. There will never be any serious discussion of what is best overall because of territorialism. As you say, “State Conventions are good for Iowa.” Well, let’s say you are right — and I don’t dispute your opinion — how does it help a Cooperative effort if we are effective in one State Convention but wasting millions in others? Do you see my point? I am very negative in regard to my State Convention — a welfare… Read more »
I agree about the welfare thing. There exists a prevalent opinion that we can only do what NAMB and the BCI fund.
Perhaps the independent streak that is being bemoaned might actually have the effect of inspiring us to see what we can do outside of the approval and funding of the denominational structure.
Not a low opinion of the church at all; I think the church should be the source of planting churches. However, I do believe that the state convention has a crucial role in determining locations in the state where churches are needed and to help prioritize those. There is also a need for guidance–how many pastors of the 40,000 SBC churches have planted a church? How many can do it without some guidance? NAMB can never be big enough to provide guidance like a state convention can. I am sorry you have had a bad experience with your state convention,… Read more »
SSBN– I beg to differ with you!! I worked–as well as my father–with joint ventures of the HMB/NCBSC/Raleigh Baptist Association in totally new areas of ministry to the Juvenile Court. If you see the Convention as a “dead entity,” it is because your mind is only on local church work. The success in servant ministry of national and state organizations was when ministry–rather than ideological conformity was the goal. It has been my conviction for many years now that when we Majored on Missions and Minored on Theological differences, we grew. The second we made lock-step conformity in thinking and… Read more »
Gene, I beg to differ with your begging to differ with me 🙂 I am opposed to State Conventions for biblical reasons, not necessarily (though it is a part) because of organizational considerations. The Bible teaches cooperation among churches, but the areas that cooperated were more like associations than state conventions. We cannot afford both, and I think associations have more merit. But, my idea has the same problem Karl Marx had: he never took into account the “parochial” nature of people. Areas in the South especially are not about to give up their state terriotorial positions. So, what I… Read more »
I beg to differ with you for begging to differ with Gene for begging to differ with you.
I don’t actually have anything to say. I just wanted to beg to differ.
NAMB has a far more unique situation in that they are conducting missions in the backyards of existing Southern Baptist Churches. For NAMB to ignore training these churches, updating these churches, educating these churches, utilizing these churches and reinvigorating these churches is the base formula for a catastrophe. I’m sorry, but NAMB is wasting their time planting churches in some segments of the US but their employees ARE in fact, judged on church plants rather than church reboots. It’s all about the numbers apparently. That model has to end because you can’t judged subjective successes based on objective results. Which… Read more »
Bill,
I agree… that’s why I feel all ministry efforts (church planting included) should be through the local churches that have boots on the ground, and are in a far better position than state or national workers to judge who is being faithful and who is not.
QUOTE NAMB should be funding North American missions, not North American maintenance. END QUOTE Dan, here is where I think the train jumped the track. In birthing churhces, let’s think about biological birth. If we do not maintain the mother, what chance does the child have? The general rule is: the healthier the mother, the healthier the baby. I think we need exactly what you oppose: a mission agency that understands: 1) who the mother is, that is the local church (not grandparents like the State, or great grandparents like the National Convention; 2) we need an agency that understands… Read more »
I am a church planter in Surprise, AZ, having relocated from a small town in central KY last September. There is much that is wrong with the current way the SBC plants churches, but I believe the most glaring distinction is the lack of local cooperation from other SBC churches. We had 4 adults and 4 kids as our “core group” when we began church – we were told there would 35-40 people on board; that didn’t materialize. I asked if we could connect w/ local SBC churches to see if maybe they had a family or 2 that had… Read more »
That is the kind of heart-attitude that the GCR Challenges section dealt with – challenging people to greater concern about the kingdom than about their personal kingdoms.
We recently had one of the largest churches in the state plant a church in its same city. The church was a “Simple Church” style church that meets in our local movie theater. The idea was that the person going to pastor this church would get it off the ground, learn the ropes of pastoring, and then come back to the parent church to be the “heir apparent” since the pastor of the large church is looking to retire. Yeah, the Simple Church in NW Louisiana is running around 1300 now, 700 came over from the larger church which has… Read more »
Unfortunate yes, but not a reason to give up on church planting! The reality of it is our American church-consumer mindset is not going to change anytime soon but we cannot let that deter a kingdom minded approach. I’m curious as to why the church plant pastor was going to “learn the ropes” then return to the mother church? Church planting is not a place for training/job advancement…it is new outposts of the Kingdom for places where the Kingdom is not advancing, and if anything (by New Testament standards) the only “training” that should go on at a church plant… Read more »
Well, the older pastor never thought that the Simple Church would take off in a city of our size. Not only did it take off, it exploded!!! The younger pastor was supposed to walk into something that would flourish for awhile, then die off, and he’d come back seasoned enough to take the mantle of the large church. After the hundreds left the parent church, the older pastor decided to make massive changes all over the church, but it’s been too little, too late and it’s been tumultuous at best since they’ve had complete turnovers in their media department and… Read more »
Steve– You have described the horror of new church starts under the current thinking of “bigger is better.” How many small and helpful businesses have failed as Wal-Mart located to the town? You may save a buck, but at the cost of personal attention given by the mom and pop Hardware / grocery / clothing / etc. store. I live in a small town–Bath is the oldest in NC–we have a store here which will cash checks / open accounts / be a place where us old men can gather for good conversation. I could go over to Washington and… Read more »
Here is my suggestion for population areas saturated with Southern Baptist Churches, yet looking to inject a NAMB presence or even reestablish a NAMB presence. 1. Enlarge the population circles which base all decisions – i.e., widen the circles from 5, 10, 25 miles to 25, 50, 100 miles when trying to figure out how much need is in a population area. These numbers are just being tossed out there, but it’s apparent that there is some sort of circle numbers which determine if a church plant is needed in an area. 2. Set caps on Southern Baptist Churches in… Read more »
Bill –
“I agree with you on all your points by the way.”
Thanks…sometimes when I spout such remarks I get looked at like I just suggested we sing all of our worship in Klingon. 🙂
Bill– I like your take–especially the need to help existing churches having trouble maintaining their facility. I served such a church in a transition neighborhood. What used to be the largest SS in Rocky Mount’s mill village was now attended by about a dozen old members. They had made many attempts to reach out to black neighbors, but they were really not interested. It had to do with social barriers as well as cultural. It would have been a great idea to invite a young black minister with SBC credentials to help make the church appealing. Long story short: *No… Read more »
SSBN– 2. There was a great day of cooperation between the HMB / State Conventions / Association–together they could fund ministries which none could do separately. 4. Get as far away from GCR stuff as you can and restore AUTONOMY in cooperative efforts. 7. Encourage Associations to be a locus of cooperative ministry rather than just another target for Conservative takeover. Here is what I mean: 2. The talk of today seems to be about not cooperating and doing their own thing with the NAMB (primarily church planting). In my era of growing mission commitment it was common for the… Read more »
Good insights, Gene. But I disagree with some of it. Especially when you said, “Unless Dr. Ezell is willing to adopt the concept of AUTONOMY and NO CONTROL, I see no bright future for SBC growth.”
You don’t plant churches and give them autonomy. You guide them until they reach the maturity to handle things on their own.
One more thing, Gene. I know you are anti-CR. Fine. I understand that and you have the right to your opinion. But lets deal with the SBC as it is and not spend a lot of time rehashing old wounds.
I am not surprised you have a problem with control. As I understand your youth and lack of long-term knowledge of the SBC, I can fully understand why. However, I personally know the days to Autonomy. They were good and led to growth. In my opinion, this day of control is a negative. I think the statistics prove it!!! When the change took place in 1979. most of us predicted within 10 years it would crash–it didn’t! BUT after 40 years we have a problem = plateaued growth / criticism–in spades–of every newly elected leader / a questionable future. I’m… Read more »
Gene, I’m 53, have been a pastor for 30 years and was raised in the SBC – PK/MK.
I’m not sure who you are thinking of.
Norman Jameson of Biblical Recording has a Gut Check opinion piece up today at ABP news.
Funny, isn’t it, how Baptist Press seems not to have heard of this matter in any substantive way to date.
Maybe they know as much about recent Baptist History as ………….
Dave– I was just going by the content of your thinking which is so typical of young pastors. We basically share the same heritage with a 10 year age difference. My father pastored in NC/SC/GA and his last 20 years were spent creating the HMB Juvenile Rehabilitation Program along with being Assistant DOM for the Atlanta Baptist Association. I was 34 in 1979 and enjoying 2 small children and ministry of being Pastor for the first time at the little town of Bishopville, SC. It was my best pastorate in a loving community / a town-wide youth group / realizing… Read more »
Gene, Cancer grows too, just because there is growth doesn’t mean things were good. Isalm is growing—strike never mind you probably think they worship the same God as Christians.
Jeff–
I would call that cancer—“Mega Church Carcenoma”
He most certainly thinks that. Has said so on numerous occasions.
Gene,
I think we are in basic agreement. My ministry began in the late 70’s so I think I understand your perception of the difference under the Home Mission Board. I think you are accurate.
Good post. Thanks for sharing.
I also think that the “mega-church myth” has done more to harm Kingdom Growth than just about anything in our modern day. I’ve always favored many smaller churches rather than one megachurch. That’s an argument I’ve seldom won — at least in the mind of denomicrats.
Bill,
That’s not the whole truth in planting churches. We planted Riverchase Baptist Church a bit over 20 years ago and it’s thriving now. And no bad blood at all, but then, it wasn’t started with the ulterior motive of being a training ground for young pastors.
And, if the church you mentioned was Baptist, then it planted an autonomous church that acted autonomously. Gee….
SSBN: I’m with you on this one. I understand all the perceived benefits of the mega church. I also don’t assign ulterior or otherwise non-Christian motives or attributes to mega church pastors. But I have always maintained that megachurches are not the ideal model for Christian churches. It is often the cult of personality, even if the pastor is not actively seeking that. Jesus said he knows His sheep by name. If the church is so big the pastor does not know his flock by name, it is too big. Satellite churches are just an exacerbation of the mega-church problem.… Read more »
QUOTE Satellite churches are just an exacerbation of the mega-church problem. It boggles my mind that such things exist. END QUOTE Bill Mac, I never thought of this aspect before. The satellite church is perhaps the “ultimate expression of the cult of personality.” I don’t mean that in a disparaging way in regard to any specific pastor. I’m sure they have as godly motives as others for the most part. Your other idea of small churches taking direction from mega-churches may go to the real heart of the matter. They are not the same. Principles in the former do not… Read more »
Man, we are starting to get it!!!!
The main theme that I see popping up in post after post hindering church growth, church planting, and reinvigoring churches is this: competition.
We’ve become so inward focused that we’re more concerned about losing existing believers to another church than we are concerned about reaching into the community shared by these churches.
That, my friends, I believe is the core of the problem facing the North American Mission Board.
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!
Thanks for the suscinct observation!!!
Can you hear it? I can! It’s ROLL TIDE!
Yeah—against a struggling ACC team = STEAM ROLL!!!
Just a word from one not participating, but is a dedicated SBC minister–Howell Scott: The Slow Death Of The Cooperative Program Posted on September 16, 2010 by Howell Scott With the election of Kevin Ezell, Senior Pastor of Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, KY, as the new President of the North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Cooperative Program moves ever closer to its ultimate demise as SBC “leaders” march our great Convention toward a radical and complete redefinition. I would like to say that I am surprised by the choice, but for anyone who has closely… Read more »
Nicely put and 100% accurate.
I would go so far as to say that THE EZELL ELECTION, and not the passage of the GCTF Report in Orlando, is the defining moment for Southern Baptists when it comes to the Cooperative Program. In Orlando, they used words in a hollow amendment not backed up by any real action to create the appearance of genuine support for the CP.
And now for the truth: NAMB actions speak louder than Orlando words.
So, what happens to the contributions ?
Do they go into salaries for executives and seminary presidents?
Or will they reach people who really need them for missions?
I’m not sure I’m understanding the conflict you pointed out.
Among the numerous conflicts are: (1) those contributing 1% are now stewarding the resources of those contributing 10%; (2) those who favor an independent missions approach are now in charge of leading a cooperative missions approach; (3) those who believe in building up a CONNECTED ecclesiology are now in charge of “planting” an AUTONOMOUS ecclesiology; and (4) we are now structured in such a way that, if they so desire, our convention’s leaders could shift our soteriology dramatically by taking “non-Calvinist cooperative mission” dollars and using them to plant “Calvinist independent mission” churches. Think of it this way: If LOUISVILLE… Read more »
R-I-C-K, Your “Blatant” Anti-Calvinism is on full display… Why all the camouflage with numbers 1-3??? When what you’re really afraid of is that these new guys just might be a bunch of… Unwashed Calvinist. You said: (4) we are now structured in such a way that, if they so desire, our convention’s leaders could shift our soteriology dramatically by taking “non-Calvinist cooperative mission” dollars and using them to plant “Calvinist independent mission” churches. So in your mind, only “non-Calvinist” give to the Cooperative Program, so only “non-Calvinist” churches should be planted with Cooperative Program funds? Can you please explain to… Read more »
Greg, you are right in pointing out that nobody has really seen the “bogey man,” but believe he is now running the Convention.
Like you, I know people who describe themselves as Calvinist but do church very differently. I don’t think anyone can identify a “Calvinist church type.”
Gene and Rick, I have not engaged the discussion here because by the time I had time to write my blog post things seemed to be winding down here on this issue. One of the reasons that I started blogging back in July was because of the direction that I saw the SBC moving in after the Orlando Convention. Rick is exactly correct when he says that the revised language dealing with “Great Commission Giving” and the CP was hollow. If you look at the body of the GCRTF Report dealing with this issue, you will see that part of… Read more »
I had a “strange” thought come to me in my sleep last night: Now that Kevin is in the same town as Dan Vestal of CBF, is there a possibility they might have lunch together and a discussion of how the SBC and CBF might partner in ministry???? Wouldn’t it be interesting if both men ended up living in the same neighborhood—Alpharetta is about 15 miles from Doraville where CBF is headquartered on the Mercer Atlanta Campus. CBF has one of its missions as “partnering” with other denominations in ministry. It would also be a great test of whether they… Read more »
I don’t think so.
Not a chance. The CBF and the SBC have diametrically opposed views on the Bible. If doctrine did not matter, it would be a possibility, but 1Timothy 4:16 warns us: “guard your doctrine.”
It ain’t gonna happen — that’s why it is called a “dream.” 🙂
PS — you don’t have to always be advancing to win a war.
The CBF and the SBC have diametrically opposed views on the Bible. Exactly, which is to say that the SBC views the Bible as Christians have always viewed the Bible, whereas the CBF has a multiple choice view of what the Bible is with the real answer being (D) Any of the above. To imagine the difference between the SBC and the Cooperate-with-anyone Baptist Fellowship, ask which of the two a church that believed the following would be allowed to participate in: *The Bible contains errors but those errors do not extend to matters concerning faith in Christ. *God saves… Read more »
Hi JOE BLACKMON,
About the SBC and the CBF:
do they differ in regarding the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, as God ?
do YOU regard the Holy Spirit as God ?
Yes, they differ. The believe that the Holy Spirit, Who is God just as God the Father is God, did not inspire scripture to be written nor did the Holy Spirit superintend the process so as to preserve the writers of scripture from commiting error. Therefore, they are saying that God is capable of lying. Further, since there are CBF’ers who believe that God saves people from other faiths through Christ without them knowing at the time that Christ is saving them, they believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell a person without that person having called on the name… Read more »
The CBF believes that the Holy Spirit, Who is God just as God the Father is God,…
Had to correct a typo.
Sorry Joe– In your usual way, you overstate and mistate so you build a “straw dog” agrument. As I understand and know the CBF, they carefully chose their name: COOPERATIVE Baptist FELLOWSHIP. It simply means what SBC used to mean with AUTONOMY guiding churches which have differences in style and specific points of theology, but can cooperate together to share the Gospel with the world. United people who believed in baptism by immersion allowed “holy rollers” to “high church” to work together mostly supporting missionaries at home and around the world to share the Gospel through a COOPERATIVE PROGRAM of… Read more »
Wow, there sure seems to be a long of anger and cynicism out there. I think Kevin Ezell spoke unwisely, but I have to disagree with the mindset that seems to be prevalent here that this is the death-knell for the CP. That may be a little over-wrought folks.
Why don’t we see what he does and how he does it before we declare the end of civilization as we know it?
Dave, I’m not sure that you were directing your comments at me, but as Gene copied by blog post, which deals with the “slow death of the Cooperative Program,” I’ll respond regarding death-knells and such. First, when I wrote my post I did not even know about Dr. Ezell’s comments that he made to his congregation at Highview (I’ve been out of pocket for the last few weeks). Those comments, in and of themselves, do not tell us anything about how he would lead NAMB. That he made the comments, especially in light of Dr. Hankins’ open letter, is certainly… Read more »
An ABP report suggested the NAMB trustee vote was 37-12. Is there ANYONE reading this comment stream who would accept a 76% call to a church or ministry organization?
I heard from a pretty reliable source that Page’s number was 57%.
Irregardless of the exact vote–it indicates to me a deep level of suspicion and lack of unity in present Board members.
This tells me Kevin Ezell needs our prayers more than ever!
They really put Frank Page through the ringer! The drift was that he was elected by the hair on his chinny-chin-chin.
I’d be more afraid of a 95% vote.
Rubberstamp time where we come with that total…
Howell, I agree with you about secrecy, I think its a problem. My point is that we are all ASSUMING what Ezell will do. I think we can do two things: 1) Advocate for what we think SHOULD be done. 2) Confront what is done when it is contrary to our convictions. But I think that people are making assumptions about what Kevin Ezell is going to do. No one knows. We don’t know if he is going to dismantle cooperative agreements. We don’t know if he is going to support or dismantle the CP. We can look at his… Read more »
Dave, I think that those of us who are perplexed by Dr. Ezell’s nomination and election are doing more than assuming when we offer our opinions on the future of NAMB and the SBC. While it is true that none of us can know what will happen in the future, I believe that can have a fairly strong idea of what will happen based upon the clear and unambiguous language of the adopted GCRTF Report and actions and words of its strongest proponents, including Dr. Ezell, Bryant Wright, trustess of the NAMB Presidential Search Committee and others. Component Three, “Encouraging… Read more »
I have some concerns as well.
“We don’t know if he is going to dismantle cooperative agreements. We don’t know if he is going to support or dismantle the CP.”
Perhaps I have missed something here… but does the president of NAMB have the authority to do either one of these by himself???
He has a lot of influence and controls a lot of the game.
No, he cannot do it without manipulating the trustees. That may put the brakes on any non-productive plan.
I was responding to the idea expressed that somehow, Ezell’s election was the death knell of the CP. My point is not that he has been made king of the convention, but that we really don’t know what he is going to do until he does it.
At least I don’t.
QUOTE we really don’t know what he is going to do until he does it.
END QUOTE
My point exactly: why take such a huge risk based upon this man’s clear record of non-support. I think we can do better.
If a person’s past performance is not important, then let’s just put names in a hat and have a kid at McDonald’s pick a name. We could get some good publicity and maybe even a better candidate.
PS — And fries, too!
SSBN, did you “know” that they have these “things” on most “keyboards” that will “prevent” you from having to write out Quote and End Quote so often?
Just thought I’d “let” “you” “know.”
It’s a matter of “tradition” 🙂 I seem to recall seeing some code somewhere, but I leave that for the “younger SBC’ers.”
Like this? It took me longer to manipulate my fingers for those arrow things 😉
I was thinking . . . we just had a heated debate over the GCR that necessitated an amendment (however limp it might have been) to assure that Cooperative Program Giving was at the heart of the report. Now, the best example we could find to match that proposed amended mandate is a man that does not even come close to being an ardent supporter of even the agency he’s elected to run. This just doesn’t make sense unless: 1) the 70% of the trustees that voted him in are blind and stupid; 2) or, there is some other agenda… Read more »
SSBN,
“This just doesn’t make sense unless: 1) the 70% of the trustees that voted him in are blind and stupid; 2) or, there is some other agenda operating that is beneath the radar. I don’t know any other way to account for Kevin Ezell.
This is the SBC… THERE IS ALWAYS AN AGENDA OPERATING BENEATH THE RADAR!
I could let you in on what it is… but then they would ban me from the Good Old Boy Club, change the secrete handshake, and drop me from the insider email list… 🙂
Greg, a secret agenda is always “somewhat at work” in any organization. My concern, as you indicate, is that it seems to be getting to be much more of the process.
The agenda of SBC insiders accounts for one reason I’ve freely chosen to abandon the call to ministry. I know that perhaps, in my biblical ignorance, I may have been predestinated to do so, but I perceive that it’s my own decision to do so. The other reason that I’ve chosen to abandon my call is because bloggers hyper-scrupulously pick apart every little detail of life like white-washed Pharisees who glory in their own self-righteous intellects. As I’ve mentioned before, I appreciate blogs such as this who have exposed me to the heartless blogosphere before I wasted my last twenty… Read more »
Anger toward SBC leaders, as Dave so aptly expressed, isn’t productive. So what is productive in this season of new SBC leaders? Bloggers such as the ones at this site should offer unconditional trust to these new leaders. Postpone the criticism until you disagree with a move made by the leaders. And even then, voice your concerns and criticisms constructively. Kevin Ezell doesn’t deserve the criticism he has garnered. I think his comments about bloggers are right on…..many of you do sit around in your house coats blogging about theology instead of living it. And yet, in spite of the… Read more »
SSBN, What some people call an “agenda” others call a “vision”… I guess it’s just a matter of perspective. Regardless of that, it is undeniable that the SBC is in the middle of a “Change of the Guard”… not so much from one theological camp to another, but from one generation of leadership to the next. And it is that change (I suspect) that has many concerned, and have many asking the questions; “Where are these these new guys going to take us, and are these new guys up to the challenge? I just want to step in here and… Read more »
Greg, in general I would hold to your optimism about surviving the changing of the guard as we have in the past. But, I’m not so sure this time. There is a youthful arrogance that I think is going to cause the “young” crowd to shoot themselves in the foot — let me rephrase that, “may cause.” The Purpose Driven craze ran many of the older crowd off and many a church is but a shell of its former self. That, combined with a general apathy in Christendom and a deep, deep recession may mean that the “new guard” is… Read more »
First: I want to thank your for this article and the good responses to it. Even Joe Blackmon has been more respectful and kind than I have ever seen him!!! This kind of discourse is what Paul advocated: “Building the Kingdom.” Every individual and group has a “Corporate Personality”–i.e., a mindset depending on its leaders who are chosen. That outlook changes from time-to-time, but there is a starting point. It is like our nation’s start with the Founding Fathers. Many were “diests” which is why we have freedom of religion. All advocated the democratic process. The reason we have 3… Read more »
SSBN, “I hope and pray the SBC continues in the spirit of global missions, but God is not limited by what our particular camp can or cannot do, or will or will not do. I’m ready to join the “next best thing,” if it doesn’t happen to be the SBC, then so be it.” Some may say that is a very “Unhealthy” attitude for a Baptist Pastor… But not me! I think that is a very “Healthy” attitude for the future of the SBC. We should not hesitate to let our leadership in the SBC know that when it comes… Read more »
Greg, exactly. I’m not anywhere near jumping ship and a spirited debate in and of itself on these matters is not a cause for concern to me.
Your standard of excellence is one I can live with.
Greg, To say that I am “anti-Calvinist” implies that I oppose Calvinists personally, when in fact, I simply disagree with their views on a few doctrines. I have Presbyterian friends and Calvinist Baptist friends. I just know the church I serve would not want to plant a Calvinist church or subsidize Acts 29 church plants. Conflicts one through three were not merely “camouflage.” I am equally concerned about (1) leaders who are not committed financially, (2) the impact of the multi-site model on classic congregational autonomy, and (3) a church grafting approach replacing a church planting approach. To answer your… Read more »
So, what exactly does a “Calvinist worship” service look like as opposed to a “non-calvinist?” Most churches take up an offering as part of worship: how does the process differ in regard to non-calvinists vs. calvinists. Where is your data to back up your assertion that “non-calvinists” outnumber calvinists 9:1. My opinion is that it would be very difficult to plant a “Calvinist” or “Non-calvinist” church because I don’t think you can identify which is which. Neither of the two examples you give have ever identified themselves as a “Calvinist” church, that I know of. Having Al Mohler as a… Read more »
SSBN, Granted, both worship styles and offerings are quite similar at churches led by Calvinist Pastors and those led by Non-Calvinist Pastors. My data is from Stetzer’s survey at Lifeway Research and pertains more specifically to the Pastors of these churches, not the members. I am also in agreement with you that these churches don’t label themselves that way at all. By simply using the “Calvinist” designation I admit I was painting with far too broad a brush. I would be more comfortable saying, “churches whose pastors tend toward Calvinism in their soteriology, elder rule and connectionalism in their ecclesiology… Read more »
Nah, I wouldn’t say, “keep your mouth shut.” You make some valid observations that I am in general agreement with, as far as the “slant” that seems to be on things these days. I think you clarified your position well and make some good points. I’m absolutely in agreement that NOTHING should ever be “hidden” (except for personnel matters perhaps). I can’t speak for Southern, because I attended SWBTS and GGBTS. I don’t think Al is going to railroad either of these schools, both of which are broad in their theological spectrum in regard to Calvinism versus non-Calvinism. So, speak… Read more »
Rick, You say, “I just know the church I serve would not want to plant a Calvinist church or subsidize Acts 29 church plants.” Just the opposite is true with me… Calvinist churches and Acts 29 church plants are exactly what my church wants to plant.” Yet for years my church, and other Calvinistic churches throughout the SBC, have poured our missions offerings into the C.P. and received absolutely nothing back except rejection of our church planters and our request for assistance. Response to your answers… (1 & 2) – The ratio of Calvinist church plants being approved in the… Read more »
“Many were “diests””
People say this all the time without realizing that the Founding Fathers numbered about 200, and only a very small minority were deists.
Statements like that above is why we now have “freedom FROM religion,” instead of “freedom OF religion.”
Though, Gene, I did appreciate the post and the spirit in which it was given. There’s some good nuggets in there.
Thanks, man!!!</b I think most of our stories about Founding Fathers are as much conjecture and ideaslistic notions as absolute truth. At its core, this nation was founded on the desire to accumulate wealth and fame for those not having such in England and Europe. We condoned slavery despite the "all men created equal" idea. We took land for the Native Americans and called them heathens! We, too often, have sought to rise on another person's back. We kept women in their place and wouldn't let them vote. You can name more than these! BUT Isn’t it a grand experiment!… Read more »
Is Ezell a Calvinist?
Not sure, but I am told that he is not in the Al Mohler mold on this issue.
Bill,
Ezell can’t be a Calvinist… for all the following reasons:
1) There are NO Calvinistic Mega Churches.
2) Calvinism does NOT grow a Church, it KILLS Churches.
3) Calvinist don’t start new works.
4) Calvinist don’t do missions work.
5) Calvinist eat little children.
Grace Always,
Greg,
Was that all sarcasm?
If not, look into Acts 29, Mars Hill Global, PLNTD, Matt Chandler, Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Mark Dever, Darrin Patrick, and their churches… to name a very, very few.
I think the Calvinists eat Children should have tipped you off!
🙂 🙂 🙂
Brandon, are you a Big-12 fan? You seem awful gullible!!
Haha I figured the Calvinists eating children was a way of being funny while still making that point! My bad, my bad.
I was there. I saw it happen in northwest Florida.