UPDATE from Baptist Press Article. Church now says they did not fire the pastor because of racism. They said it was because of the message he preached on racism and the way he preached it. See link here. See below after the original article for the full BP article.
Original Article:
This morning, I was alerted to a story that seemed to belong to another era – but sadly it happened yesterday. A young pastor in a small Southern Baptist church in small town Alabama tries to lead his church to do outreach and invite children from the community to their upcoming VBS. The church is all white and the surrounding community is mostly black. Opposition arises from church members and they tell him that they do not want to reach out to black people and invite them to church. He persists and says the gospel of Jesus Christ demands it. They tell him that if he keeps going with this, then he will be removed. He says that he will take his appeal to the church and on the next Sunday, he preaches boldly against racism and calls the church to repentance. A vote is scheduled on the future of the pastor and he is voted to be removed immediately by a unanimous vote last night. As of today, he has no job.
I spoke with this pastor, Jonathan Greer, today for about a half hour. I asked him if there was anything else that happened. Did they give another reason? Even a public reason? He said no. They told him nothing. [Edit: In the news story released, the deacon says that Jonathan did not engage in enough visitation and did not work with the deacons]. He said that the problem was that they didn’t want black people to come to their church. A variety of reasons were listed, but they were all related to negative things happening if black people started coming. The church is in Alabama. It is a small church numbers-wise – around 30 people or so.
Jonathan Greer is a young pastor. But, he has a backbone made of steel and a love for Christ and a heart for the gospel and for all people. We need more pastors like him. He didn’t back down. Lots of people talk a good game about loving people of all races/ethnicities until their jobs are on the line. Then, they grow silent. Jonathan got louder. Even though the church was small, he was full-time there because they had people who could support him. He doesn’t have a job to go to or the means to support his family, and even though his job was threatened he did not bow the knee. He is trusting in God. I’d follow a guy who can stare straight into the threat of being fired for taking a strong stand and then stand firm anyway out of love for the Lord and people and a desire to be faithful to Christ. We need pastors like Jonathan Greer who will not back down but will continue to call the church to faithfulness, sacrifice, and engagement with their community for the sake of the gospel. Someone call this brother and give him a ministry job. The church-at-large needs him.
If you would like to donate to Jonathan for his support, you can give to Community Development Initiatives and I will make sure that he gets 100% of the funds. Just note that you are giving to Jonathan Greer.
Jonathan did not want this story to go public. He did not want to be named or to have the church named. When we talked earlier, we left it at that and I told him I would honor his wishes. It is his story, not mine. But, later, he called back and told me that a local TV station had the news story and they were coming to his home to interview him. He told me that the story was out there already so we might as well tell it. Only then did he agree to have his name mentioned. He didn’t disparage anyone or try to make himself look like a hero. He was pretty nervous after the news station contacted him. As far as I can tell, this was a young, small church pastor trying to be faithful to Christ and lead his church to love his community. He did not seek this situation. But, I told him that God knew that this day would come and prepared him to be a witness to Him at this time. I am challenged by Jonathan and have to ask myself and readers here: “What is God preparing you for? Where will you stand? Will you stand?”
There are always two sides to every story, of course. The news story says that the deacon said that Jonathan did not visit church members enough, he did not work well with the deacon, it wasn’t about race, and that is why they immediately fired him with a 31-0 vote with no severance. I called the reporter at the station who ran the story, Tom Williams at WTOK, and I talked to him about this. He was very forthcoming with me. You can compare the stories and decide for yourself.
NOTE: I reserve the right to update this post if/when more information comes in. I’ll mark the edit.
BUTLER, Ala. (BP) — A former Alabama pastor and the rural congregation that terminated him last Sunday (July 31) have offered varying reports to media outlets regarding the role racism played in the 31-0 vote to dismiss him.
Mt. Sterling Baptist Church in Butler, Ala., was the subject of news stories by WTOK television in nearby Meridian, Miss., the AL.com news website and other media outlets when it fired pastor Jonathan Greer, 26, over what Greer described as “pushback” against his intention to invite black children to Vacation Bible School.
Mt. Sterling member Norma Wimberley told Baptist Press the church “is not racist” and terminated Greer in large part because of a sermon marked by “anger and hate” in which he seemed to misclassify the congregation as racist. Terry Long, director of missions for the Choctaw Baptist Association, with which Mt. Sterling cooperates, told BP racism “probably” played “the most significant role” of any factor in Greer’s termination but other factors came into play as well.
An Aug. 1 post about Greer and Mt. Sterling on the SBC Voices blog received 6,500 likes in support of the pastor on Facebook during the first two days it was online.
Greer, who pastored Mt. Sterling a year and a half, told BP one of the church’s deacons informed him approximately two weeks ago the congregation “was in an uproar” over his plan to invite black children to VBS and suggested the pastor might need to resign. According to Greer’s account, he would not compromise and deacons told him the “core” of the church believed he should leave. They did not specify a number of people who allegedly held that belief or name them.
Greer preached on racism the following Sunday and a vote on his termination was scheduled for the subsequent week, in keeping with the church’s bylaws. Greer later apologized publically and privately for broadly classifying the congregation as racist in his sermon.
“I didn’t realize that there were more people in the church … that were okay with people [of all races] coming,” Greer said. “And in my sermon, I didn’t account for that. I kind of lumped everyone together.”
At least four people who voted to terminate Greer have said they are open to black people attending church events, Greer stated. Seven or eight members, he alleged, said they voted for termination explicitly because he wanted to invite black children to VBS.
Deacon Freddie Moore told WTOK the pastor was terminated for not working with the deacons and not visiting church members.
Wimberley, who has been a Mt. Sterling member 20 years, said the church has received expressions of “hate” since Sunday and that the termination was not about racism. The congregation long has had a black member, she said, though that member currently lives out of town and was not present for the vote.
“Our church is not racist,” Wimberley said. “We invite anyone that comes into our door to join us at any time. We welcome them. We ask them to be members.”
Greer “misunderstood what the deacons said or just didn’t listen,” Wimberley said. She was not present for his sermon on racism because of a memorial event for her late husband but later listened to a recording of it and cited the sermon when asked the reason for Greer’s termination.
“If you heard Jonathan’s sermon the Sunday before his dismissal,” Wimberley said, “it was not a sermon of love. It was a sermon of anger and hate.”
Long, the DOM, said Greer’s sermon “was biblically truthful and accurate” but added the pastor “came out swinging.”
“At the beginning of his sermon, it seemed a little overbearing to me and a little harsh,” Long said, “but he softened midway through the sermon and just got into the Scripture and basically told them what the Scripture said. And then he called them to repentance.”
In terminating Greer, the church “made a bad decision, in my opinion,” Long said. “Nothing that the pastor did was worthy of dismissal. He’s a young pastor in his first church. As with all of us, mistakes [were] made — when you’re young especially.”
Still, Long said, “he stood valiantly for the truth. He would not compromise and deserves our admiration and encouragement and praise for that.”
At the same time, Mt. Sterling should not be disfellowshiped from the association, Long said.
“Mt. Sterling Baptist Church, like every church, has people that are committed to Jesus Christ and the Gospel at different levels,” Long said. “It is a mistake to believe that every member of this church is racist. It is a mistake to believe that this church has any kind of printed or stated policy that excludes anyone … They have a documented history of having fellowship with other races.”
Greer, who says he has received expressions of support from as far away as California and London, plans to take a brief vacation with family then look for another pastorate.
_____________________________
My take:
If you outline the story that BP told, you can probably take what you want from it and make your case. The purpose of me posting this after I heard that the media already had the story and they were running with it was to point out that a pastor stood for what was right instead of it just being about a “racist Baptist church in Alabama.” There actually are pastors trying to do the right thing, even when opposed. When I heard that he was fired with no severance at all, I knew he needed to be helped.
I cannot picture anyone getting fired in such a manner for the reason of failing to visit church members.
I can’t either Jennifer. I’m sure it was because he wanted to reach out to and invite blacks to their church. It’s sad that he lost his job because he stood firm on the gospel. Jesus died for EVERYONE, not just one particular race!!
In just about every situation of firing a pastor I have seen, the issue of pastoral care is cited by those who wish to fire the pastor. It is a smoke screen for deeper issues, as is apparently the case here as well.
agreed
Absolutely. I have experienced this smoke screen. It is amazing how deceitful church leaders can be. I think I know why the church mentioned in this article is so small.
Unfortunately, pastors do get fired for not visiting church members. In small churches that’s one of the expectations. Many of these pastors are bi-vocational. I’ve been home bound for 11 years and not one pastor has visited from the church. Some pastors are administrators, some are actual preachers (not teachers), some are just teachers, some are mission minded, and some are evangelistic. I’m thankful for the great godly men I grew up under that did it all with a very large congregation. Rev Ed Cooglar, Dr (Papa) Sam Cathey, Dr Danny Watters and Dr Wayne Hamrick. These me were like… Read more »
Alicia, That was well written and not at all inaccurate. Scripture commands the shepherding of the flock. However, we tend to judge based on personal standards, rather than Biblical. There are many cases of mis-sheparding for sure. I only write because we just finished looking at this in my church. The day of pentecost 3000 people were baptized and added to the church (read mega church) and that number continued to grow dramatically. Here is my question: How did the apostles shepherd the flock of multiple thousands that were multiplying rapidly? Would todays standard of expectation (for most SBC church… Read more »
Randall, just lets take in consideration that the 3000 came to Jerusalem from many places (pilgrimage) and many of them when back spreading and sharing the Gospel and also the meetings of the church were in homes. So basically, no mega church here 😉
Randall has a good question. The deacons at this church do not seem to understand that the job of a deacon is to serve – esp. widows and orphans. This is like deja vu to 1989 when something very similar happened to us – and the first indication was a complaint about welcoming black visitors into our church. There must be many small, Baptist churches in the south that still are “run” by racist families.
Another issue, hinted at earlier, is that small rural, SBC churches can only afford Bi-vocational pastors. That is what I was, a bi-vocational pastor – the reality is that he may earn bi-vo pay, but the church still has full-time expectations. Preaching/Teaching better be “up to par”, Administration is expected to be flawless, Pastoral/Counselling ministry must be accommodating to the 24/7 needs of the church. He better have a model Family, marriage and kids. These expectations is the reality of many small church pastors. In one church I served, I had to make a decision: Do I pay my phone… Read more »
I can tell you this is very common in rural areas. It is sad, but very true. I have been in ministry since the early 70’s. Within the last 12 months I was told that the people knew blacks had souls BUT, they did NOT accept them in THEIR church. It is almost always a family run church in a rural area. It will almost always have older people who are far more interested in tradition and prefer to follow the BY LAWS and CONSTITUTION that maw and paw put together rather than the Bible. They wlll always have a… Read more »
I am from Alabama. My pastor, at a first baptist in a county seat town told me that were he to invite a missionary to come, and he brought with him an African who had accepted Christ, people in the church would fall all over him; but if he invited an African American from the “otherside of town” to come, they would fall all over themselves to fire him. When I was there in the early 1980s, attendance was 400 more or less. I visited there a couple of years ago, and there was still not a black face to… Read more »
The scriptures are clear that all are created in the image of God without regard to race. I know that there are still cases of racism. However, it concerns me a bit hearing only one side of the story. As Christians, we are called to become involved in certain circumstances. I am not sure that this is the right time or venue until more of the details are sorted out. I say this with respect to both parties. If it were me, or my church, I would want a chance to be heard and not have my case tried in… Read more »
Seriously?
Absolutely. If this were your church and you were in fact NOT guilty (not saying they aren’t), wouldn’t you like this to be handled in a manner that does not muddy your name in vain? Look, I don’t know anyone involved. But, what I do know is that there had better be proof from at least two or more people to start casting stone at a deacon or pastor. The scripture requires it. If I attended this church and were not racist, I would not want to be lumped together. Perhaps, and I am not saying this is the case,… Read more »
31-0 they voted to fire a pastor because he wanted to invite black children to VBS.
You want to defend that?
Dave, How do you know for sure that their vote was to fire him for voting to invite black children to VBS? What proof has been given? If I were innocent, but someone came out and accused me or wrong, I would shudder to think you might jump on their bandwagon. The bible is clear. We cannot rush to judgement, especially when judging the actions of elders and deacons. This isn’t my opinion, it is God’s word. There could be some other facts involved. I am not saying the church is right on this, but maybe a couple of deacons… Read more »
BTW – It irks me a bit that you asked me “31-0 vote to fire him for ….. You want to defend that?” I am not defending anything. I am trying to act Christ-like in my responses and reserve judgement against elders, deacons and a sister congregation until I have more facts.
All I have seen so far is hearsay. From a scriptural perspective, I am not respond until I have facts.
I don’t like how you twisted what I said. It was uncharitable.
I’m flabbergasted that you are going to bat for this church.
Every time racism rears its head in the SBC we not only have to deal with the racism, but the doubters, the deniers, and the apologists for those who sin.
I’ve communicated with Jonathan, and I’m convinced that a grievous evil had been done.
You do what you want. I’m calling this church to repent and to renounce racism.
Enough is enough.
Tiffany, you’ve left a bunch of comments. NOT ONE has expressed sympathy for a young man and his family who lost his job. NOT ONE has defended him in any way.
EVERY SINGLE ONE has defended a racist church and challenged those who called it to repent. I don’t know you or what your goal is. But your comments have ALL been on the side of defending the church and you’ve NOT ONCE shown any compassion for Jonathan.
The issue was not “tried in the media”. Greer didn’t even want the story to be made public. If you actually read the article with any integrity, you would see that.
Also, the “other side of the story” was given. It’s ridiculous and an obvious lie.
It is interesting to me that, any time an incident involving black people occurs, white self-professing Christians urge us to withhold judgment until there’s more information.
For some reason, my comment was not put in the thread that I replied to, but was relegated to an entirely new thread. It was in reply to Tiffany Long’s “wait and see” comments.
I’m a member of a church in UK, been a Christian since 1975 and made more than my share of mistakes in this life. I’m not going to say anything about this situation because I hope I respect the wisdom and integrity of local church leaders to deal with it. However, my gut feel is that an internet forum is the wrong way to be handling this, whichever side of the fence one is on.
Why when a church is reported/shown/discussed to be acting badly do the defenders of it come out requiring verification and substantiation from many highly respected and unimpeachable sources? Yet will willingly accept said church’s accusations against a person or organization they disagree with. Tiffany – what proof or information do you possess or have access to that would disprove Rev. Greer’s comments? Typically the bigger party, and their allies, will want to wait until all of the info is available – hoping that the story will get buried and forgotten. Given that the church congregation is white, is in Alabama… Read more »
I’d like to move on from Tiffany’s derailing of the discussion. Let’s focus on what we can and should do as a denomination. How should we approach this? Let’s stop trying to play Johnny Cochran on the evidence – it is pretty clear here – even if not all has been made public. Let’s keep the focus off of Tiffany’s arguments and on the big picture – a terrible thing was done here. A church has sinned grievously. Our denomination is dragged into the mud by that sin. The witness of the church is compromised. A young pastor is without… Read more »
Actually, Jonathan did go to other churches. He went to the local association. They were so convinced that they told Jonathan that they’d be scheduling a vote to disassociate with the church. The churches of a local Baptist association (which is the churches that make it up) know each other’s issues quite well.
I certainly hope that is true and they follow through with calling that church to repent.
I don’t know the details that Mark is sharing, but Jonathan told me in no uncertain terms that his association makes a priority of racial reconciliation and that Choctaw Association is NOT like Mt. Sterling Baptist.
I just posted sharing a little of that, with Jonathan’s permission. Choctaw is the opposite of Mt. Sterling.
Tiffany you have a lack of understanding as to how these things play out sometimes. We can quote Matthew 18 all we want. However, congregationalist polity can be a double edged sword. I am not denying the validity of scripture. However, in my own personal experience I have been in a situation similar to this. Congregational polity has no recourse for the party, which in many cases, is seen as the offender. What is the recourse for those who decide to claim that which is not “sinning” is? In many instances there is none. Instead what happens is a young,… Read more »
I left the SBC years ago. The SBC in ’85 in Dallas made me sick. I also watched the sparring at the State and associational level. In my experience, unless you are the pastor of some First Baptist of some County Seat town pastors are not taken seriously if you are caring for a congregation of 40. I was told by a pastor in the association I was a part of: “If you’re wunna those Calvinists, we don’t want ya” My wife and I gladly worship and serve in an Evangelical Presbyterian Church – I don’t miss the mess one… Read more »
Thanks Alan for bringing this to our attention. There are far too many people who think the sin of racism is dead in the church. This is just further proof that that is a lie sent from hell. My prayers for Jonathan and his family and also for the church that they would repent.
I hope and pray this story opens some eyes.
Amen! The SBC was founded on racist principles and has more repentance left to do on that sin, as do we all.
Jonathan contacted me today but I’m dealing with a crisis in one of my church families. I told him, “Don’t blow it up.”
I was wrong.
This us unspeakable evil and this church needs to be named and they need to be called to repent. If they continue in sin, they must be sent out of our fellowship in a decisive action.
I agree that IF these accusations are true, yes, they should be called to repent. BUT, we don’t have all the details and I doubt anyone saying this church has sinned has reached out to speak with both parties, together, as a mediator to establish the facts. I have a difficult time calling another church, particularly a Baptist church, out for a sin when I was not a witness. Have any other witnesses come forward? Has anyone reached out to the church? If this were my church, (It wouldn’t be because my pastor is the not at all racist), I… Read more »
“Jonathan contacted me today but I’m dealing with a crisis in one of my church families. I told him, “Don’t blow it up.” I was wrong. This us unspeakable evil and this church needs to be named and they need to be called to repent. If they continue in sin, they must be sent out of our fellowship in a decisive action.” Dave: We have had our deep differences but on this subject you, Bart, Alan and others have stood strong against racism. I have to say, for what it’s worth, that this statement and the one Bart made just… Read more »
And the next time we raise issues of racism in the SBC, I assume that no one will say, “It’s all in the past.”
It’s not!
Here is the story my TV station did on the siyation tonight, FYI. this is near Meridian, MS.
Pastor suspects racial motivations behind termination
http://www.wtok.com/content/news/Pastor-suspects-racial-motivations-behind-termination-388889422.html
Situation, that is.
Should have read the post before I posted the link. See you already had.
Give a thank you to your folks for what seemed like a fair report.
Thanks, we certainly tried to do just that.Hope to follow up on it over the next few days.
Courageous and the right thing to do. I would like to have Pastor Greer’s e-mail and phone number. I am a director of missions in Missouri and I want to recommend him to a church in my association! Please send me his contact info. at rdnations@gmail.com.
Good article and I can tell you he is an awesome young pastor who God will continue to use.
It’s that deacon that needs to visit the church members along with all the other deacons. Maybe he and they should be fired. Unfortunately he won’t be. That’s just lame.
I don’t know whether the deacons have or have not visited church members, but we shouldn’t rush to judgement on this since we don’t know. We are spreading hearsay at this point.
Tiffany. He very much followed Matthew 18. It’s as the article stated.
Tiffany, you could be right and maybe I shouldn’t rush to judgment, but as my time as pastor, while serving with some stellar deacons who have fulfilled their ministry, but also talking with other pastors about their experience and my personal experience with deacons, I can honestly say that the norm are deacons who serve as some governing board who do not fulfill their biblical ministry. Again, maybe I should not have rushed to judgment, but experience tells me that the excuse of not visiting enough is lame as the deacons should be doing the majority of visiting and meeting… Read more »
Well said Robin.
Clearly stated and broken down — Thanks Robin!
There’s a pretty easy way to find out what’s what. Find out how many black people they invited to their VBS. If this isn’t about racism then the answer should be that they invited as many as they could. And that could pretty easily be verified.
That would probably be a good idea except that the church is so small I doubt they paid to mail fliers or anything with a big price tag. They probably just put out a sign or two for the general population. Maybe they announced it on their marquee sign. If they didn’t announce it to the public, it could indicate someone more sinister. It sounds to me like Pastor Greer went ahead and invited all people to the VBS.
It doesn’t cost them anything but time. If the 31 people who were able-bodied enough to show up on Sunday night to fire the pastor personally invited 5 black kids from the community to their VBS then that’s 155 kids. Again, this is easy to verify. Go ask African American families in that community if they or anyone they know got a personal invitation.
You could just ask them how many children they had period. Because the answer would be zero. And the reason behind it is that they cancelled VBS all together this year.
Is that so? That is sad. When I was a pastor in a southern state, we had a basketball goal in parkign lot – we had a lot of “fellowship” out there with some of the young people. One day, one of our more forward-looking deacons invited some young black kids to play ball in our church parking lot. The next day the basketball hoop came down. Better to have no hoop at all than to let black children play on our parking lot. Fortunately, I think that church has changed over time, but it was a shock to me… Read more »
BOOM
I hate it when racism rears its ugly head. I especially hate the fact that it reinforces Southern stereotypes that are growing much less common over time. On Sunday, three people joined our church. Two were black. The church’s reaction was nothing other than “amens” and applause. In fact, over 25 years of ministry, including three churches in Texas and two in Alabama, no deacon has EVER told me not to invite black people to church. I hate that this happened. We still have work to do to eliminate this kind of nonsense. But I am thankful that it happens… Read more »
Rick, amen on your new editions!!! The Lord is using you in great ways.
I agree, it does happen much less today, but I had a similar experience in my first pastorate. I was not terminated, but I was still told that the blacks have their church. It broke my heart. But that did not stop me from trying to reach them. I pray this type of racism can be eliminated from our churches.
Having had a similar experience- this registered with me too.
When we were divvying up our small southern town for visitation I was told, “we don’t go to that part of town” (Black section) One Deacon said, “You know what the Bible says preacher? Birds of a feather flock together!”
Other than “God helps him who helps himself” and “Cleanliness is next to godliness” – that’s my favorite verse.”
As a former Alabama Southern Baptist pastor myself I sadly identify with this story. When serving two Alabama congregations it was placed on my heart to reach out to those who were in need. Specifically, I saw this through both churches benevolence ministries. Each church chastised me for bringing up such an idea and both made it very difficult for me to lead. In fact, the at my second church I had a rally of support towards creating “food bags” for people who would drop by our church for the basics. It was never meant to be a food pantry,… Read more »
Mike, thanks for your testimony. Helpful in many different ways.
Sadly this situation exists ( probably) across our convention. About fifteen years ago I fell to an eerily similar situation. Except it was a mid- sized church in North east Louisiana. Biggest difference was I got wind of what was going to happen and resigned the morning of.
Most amazing thing? The association felt it necessary to “chastise ” me for simply walking off without “giving notice”. Sorry but, how much notice would I have been given ?
I pray for this young pastor and all others ” on the front lines”.
Amazing testimony as to God getting us where He needs us. Thank you for your candor. I hope I would be able to have a similar attitude in difficulties.
“In other words, churches use the visitation charge as the ever dangling carrot to always critique a pastor when they are unhappy. ” Yes. I seriously rolled my eyes when I read that in Alan’s article. That is a bogus charge. If it is REALLY true, then let the pastor know and help him do better. I would argue it isn’t a pastor’s job anyway, but that of deacons, and deacons should stop trying to run churches and start serving churches. But that is neither here nor there, and I’m not going to be able to fix SBC polity issues… Read more »
In the past—roughly 25 years ago—the Alabama state convention disfellowshipped a church for the very same action. It’ll be interesting to see what happens this time, and who takes the lead.
Sounds like that is what the Local Assoc should do…if they truly disagree with what the church did.
Thanks for keeping us updated Alan. If the story as told here is true, I’ll bring a motion myself at next year’s convention to disfellowship the church involved and have them officially removed from the SBC.
You can second my motion. I called dibs.
Racism makes me sick.
My heart goes out to Pastor Greer. We should be faithful to pray for him for a man’s identity is wound into his occupation, this is especially true of pastors. To wake up not being a pastor is difficult. Even when you know you are right depression often sets in and a pastor feels he needs to defend himself even to his friends. It is also good to remember when dealing with a church in the Deep South to ask the search committee if the church has an open door policy. It’s sad it is necessary but there is wisdom… Read more »
Grudem is looking at Trump through the rosiest of rose colored glasses. Talk about spin.
I wondered where this comment had gotten to. Apologies for the incorrect posting. Feel free to remove.
The word I get is that the local association is considering the disfellowshipping of this church. That’s the appropriate way for this to play out, and it is very encouraging to me. The reason why the national convention has had to become involved in disciplinary matters of late is because local associations have too often failed in their role. If the local association should disfellowship the church, I would be very surprised if the state convention and national SBC were to fail to acknowledge that decision. At that point, not only will racial equality have been affirmed, but also a… Read more »
Yes, the Association is the means for this church to be disciplined. From my personal experience I do not see ALSBOM getting involved. Since my first church had a history of routinely dismissing pastors I asked ALSBOM for external leadership. Their frequent response was that “We don’t interfere in local church autonomy.” While I think they take this principle a bit further than it was ever intended, the best course of action is the Association. In the Association the church can find the congruency of their autonomy, yet have the needed accountability I sought from ALSBOM. If indeed they are… Read more »
Actually, while I don’t know the players involved, do not discount the idea that the State Convention might get involved. They can’t get involved in the local church’s affairs – that would be out of bounds, but they can act to disfellowship.
I wouldn’t rule out such an action.
Dave, I’d be glad to be wrong on this one and hope they do. If they do I will be surprised though.
If the state convention will not go the full disfellowship route, I at least hope it would pass a motion/resolution that condemns churches that act in this way and to explain that a “good” church makes every effort to be resemble the community in which it serves.
I think that the way that the state and national conventions will be involved is in following the action of the local association, if that association should disfellowship the church. If the association fails to act, then it has happened before that state and national conventions get involved without the participation of the local association. But the ideal pattern is for the local association to address the issue and then for the state and national conventions to follow their lead.
I am a pastor and an associational leader in the county in question. I know Jonathan personally. I fear that many of you are, in fact, jumping to conclusions. I’m not sure yet what all is going on there. It may well be that the circumstances are just as despicable as has been suggested. However, I believe that there is some misinformation in this post and the comments that follow it. I ask that each of you pray and patiently wait for more information. If you would do that I’ll commit to use whatever influence I have to see that… Read more »
I think Justin’s comment is worth considering. Just a little internet digging reveals that there is a Justin Olvey who pastors a SBC church in the same county as the church in question here. One of my initial thoughts was that if Jonathan’s story were false, the local association would be quick to condemn it or at least call on people to wait for more information. However, the AL state convention website shows that this association is currently without a DOM, and it apparently does not have a website. Given that a fellow pastor who ministers in that area and… Read more »
Justin, Thank you for this post. All should be praying for Jonathan and the members of the church in question. Certainly God can use all these circumstances to bring glory to His name, and change the heart of men and women to love one another. Patience, and seeking love for one another should be the goal. It is pretty obvious that sin has reared its predictable head. Our body will be praying for this situation, your association, and for the believers involved on all sides.
@Justin I think such a charge as, “misinformation” should be readily backed up. I would think that brotherly love would call for that, don’t you? After all, you readily admit that it could in fact be true.
Tim, a “charge” of misinformation was not my intention. I really did not want to come across as argumentative. I have verified by a personal conversation with Jonathan that part of my concerns were in fact my own misinformation. Alan has addressed the other of my concerns in his updates.
I still believe that the Kingdom of God is best served with an attitude that desires and facilitates reconciliation and repentance.
I hope everyone has heard my updates as well. I’ve heard from at least 2 different and independent sources that the Choctaw association is a model association in terms of racial reconciliation and such. They are doing it right.
This church is the exception, not the rule.
Even if you take the deacon’s alternate explanation at face value, you’ll notice that they didn’t say they consulted Scripture or spent time in serious prayer before taking this action. They also gave no evidence of how this action would advance the Kingdom of God and I certainly heard of no moral disqualification, either. Yeah, I’m not buying their explanation.
Unfortunately, I fear that there are more churches like this out there than we think. Kicking this church out of fellowship at local, state, and national levels (in that order mind you), AND have each step plastered on every news service and blog that is SBC related, is very much needed to send a clear message to our entire fellowship of “like minded” churches.
I originally gave Jonathan the “protect the church” advice knowing he’d been fired and assuming it was some other kind of normal stupidity that just happens in churches. Generally, the best course of action is to walk away and trust God to defend you and to take the vengeance he sees fit. When Alan told me the story (this is not really hearsay, folks. Extensive research has been done and both sides have been contacted. Those who have contacted both sides are convinced the truth lies on the side of Jonathan Greer and did not believe the deacon’s story. I… Read more »
There are plenty still left. Thankfully, they are dying slow deaths. No one is joining them and eventually they will disappear. Then maybe someone gets the building and can actually act like the church
When it comes time to start evaluating sermons in preparation for the ’17 Pastors’ Conference, I’d like to propose that Pastor Greer be under consideration.
Here Here!!!
I will guarentee you one thing if I ever have a church leader not want to reach a particular race, I will have their head on my office wall when I am done. Ridiculous!
” I will have their head on my office wall when I am done.”
Adam Hatfield,
I have a question regarding your comment: If you put your church leader’s head on the wall of your office, what do you plan to do with the rest of their body?
Do you know what a figure of speech is?
My church needs a senior pastor — send me his resume
So sad. Myvhusband pastored for about 30 years. We’ve experienced this. The churches that behave this way want less evangelism and more coffee drinking with the saints.
Lisa Bannister,
Please don’t blame this on the coffee. It’s not the coffee.
This is a wild story, Jonathan had posted about it in the reformed pub about a week ago asking for prayer- sad that this church actually went through with it, and congrats for this man’s bravery and faithfulness.
Case #1 – I pastored for 20 years in Columbia SC. In the later 90’s I drafted a letter calling for the churches of the Columbia Metro Assoc. to expose and denounce racism. The letter was irenic but pointed. It gave 6 months for churches to sign a statement that they genuinely welcomed and encourage people of all races to be a part of their assembly. If they did not, the Association would remove them from fellowship. The DOM (now deceased) refused to even consider sending this letter to the 90+ churches in that Association. The reason? It would violate… Read more »
Tom, if you have Bobby Earls’ permission to share his personal cell # and email, you can put them back in. I’d err on the side of caution before I would post someone else’s personal contact info in a place where 10k+ will see it in a day or two. Thanks.
So, and pardon me for being slightly contrarian here, were either of you able to get in contact with anyone in the church? Was an attempt made? I understand that the reporter talked to one deacon.
I am a bit hesitant to go full bore at church shaming, and that is what this is and may be what is needed, without giving the church a chance at a response. At least one person representing himself as a leader in (what is presumably the church’s) local Baptist association offers caution.
That said, I know Alan to be very thorough.
William, since there had already been a public vote and the decision was final for the pastor to be removed and a news story had been released with an interview with the pastor and Deacon and I talked to the reporter and queried him, I had confidence in the parts of the story that I shared. There were more details about what happened that were left out of the story. I became aware of this situation before the news story and after the story ran added the link for verification. We talk about a lot of things here and once… Read more »
Thanks Alan. I understood that. You didn’t name the church but the links do and I saw the story before I saw it here. There is at least a dual thrust here: support the pastor and shame the church. You may not intend the latter but from the comments that is the result. Does the church deserve it? Perhaps. I am mildly uncomfortable, partly because you say there is more and there is surely more from the church’s side. With views well into five figure here alone, the matter is out there. I hope you guys were thorough and got… Read more »
Some churches need public shaming.
Putting a young man out of work for not visiting enough is one of them. That is something that can be rectified.
Putting a young man out of work for not working with deacons who are racist is another. If a pastor was preaching on racism to his church, he had a reason.
Those reasons alone are enough for public shaming. Sometimes Christians do bad things, and should be shamed for it.
Paul certainly wasn’t against public shaming…so…I don’t know what the problem is here.
If they fired the pastor because he didn’t visit enough, then they deserve shaming for that as well. In fact, more of that sort of rebuke needs to happen. Too many churches do that sort of nonsense. Anyone who has been around churches long enough knows that the “he doesn’t visit enough” is a total garbage blanket accusation that pops up all the time when people (usually deacons) don’t have a real grievance, and the pastor hasn’t truly done something wrong. It honestly happens all the time, and it is disgusting. I wish more churches would be held accountable, if… Read more »
I got in big trouble at my first church for bringing a black student to church. It happens way to much. I was told not to sacrifice my ministry to 30 white students for 1 black student.
A history lesson. I’ve pastored 3 churches full time and 2 part time. All but my current church was “Deacon run.” Of those “Deacon run” churches, only one was remotely healthy. The rest will die in the next decade or so. While I understand Tiffany’s concern to “not rush to judgment,” the vote numbers are clear in this situation. 31-0 to dismiss is slightly more shocking than a 100% calling of a Pastor. Racism is sin, plain and simple. When a church abides in sin, justifies sin, and/or fights on the side of sin, they are no longer a church… Read more »
Pastor Greer might be out of a job right now, but he has a long ministry ahead of him.
Unfortunately I’ve had too many conversations, even in NY, with people who essentially say “I’m not racist but look at how bad the blacks are….”.
Racism is on the wane, hopefully, but it’s far from dead. It isn’t even on life support.
It’s frustrating that every time blatant racism is brought up, there are some Christians out there who either deny that racism still exists or just accuse those of us who bring it up as being liberals. I just don’t understand it.
I can relate deeply to Pastor Greer’s struggle. I lived with my family in a Muslim nation for 14 years where we shared the love and truth of Christ with our neighbors. We knew Christians who were severely persecuted. But in terms of my being hurt myself, we were actually hurt far worse during my first two years as a pastor back in the US by “Christian” church members than I was directly hurt by our Muslim neighbors during our years overseas. I very briefly shared about this in a blog post several months ago. The relevant part of the… Read more »
This story broke my heart and frustrated me. Then, I hope there was more to the story. I hope there was more, not because I don’t think racism still exists, but because I don’t want racism exist, especially, in the church. And if the rest of the story is merely what the deacon stated about Greer not visiting enough – pitiful excuse! I do understand the need to be cautious as more information potentially comes out. However, I trust Alan’s (and Dave’s) investigation and discernment. I do not believe they would post this horrid story carelessly. Not only would it… Read more »
Sad. Like some here I have had my own story with this sort of thing. I did not get fired. Maybe the church thought about it. I will never know. What startles me here are those who immediately assume there is more to the story. On the one hand I suspect it is the overall demise of trust in clergy. High profile failures run downhill in their effect on how people view us. “There must be something the pastor did. It could not be just . . ..” On the other hand, it simply buries the issue beneath the empty… Read more »
If the story here is correct, the church is certainly wrong.
I would not, however, want to be on trial at SBC Voices. There are at least two sides to this story, and basically only one has been heard. The church has not been contacted. Seems there is a lot of jumping to conclusions here.
Tiffany and a couple other commenters here need to be thoughtfully, respectfully, heard. The same goes for the church.
The first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him. -Proverbs 18:17
David R. Brumbelow
David, there is a time to take an unequivocal stand against racism. This is the time.
What part are you bothered with David B, Tiffany et all? What side David, Tiffany et al? Say for the sake of argument that the minister was not fired due to racism(which I am not buying. Not visiting 31 parishioners? Really?), racism was committed by the church by not allowing black children to be invited to the Bible School and the sermon that had to be preached against racism. I don’t understand why you would think that is not something to stand against. Again, in God’s way I believe that is why the resolutions were passed at the meeting in… Read more »
In my restless 20’s. I resigned two churches when they forbid me to have black students in my youth ministry. I was fired by one pastor who was a closet racist. I would do it all again right now, and I’m retired after nearly 40yrs in student ministry. It’s a medal of Honor to get fired/resigned by some people.
Michael Holt: Wow. Good comment.
This is sad on so many levels. The best a prospective pastor can do is 1) ask questions and find out about the history, and try to gauge the climate and 2) try to find a former staff member or someone familiar with the church to gain insight. Unfortunately, if you ask if they are for outreach their answer won’t necessarily jive with what is actually practiced. Praying for this young pastor. There are plenty of churches that really want to grow but need leadership such as this.
I had the exact experience in a church not far from Butler, AL. I, too, was terminated over a desire to reach all people in our area, and the same reasons were given by the deacons for the terminations. It’s curious that the deacon did not want to be on camera. Churches like Mt Sterling should be booted out of the SBC if they are unrepentant.
Butler, AL, is the county seat of Choctaw County. It is one of the Alabama counties referred to as the Black Belt. That name originally referred to the rich black soil, but it later came to also mean an area with a large black population who worked the cotton fields. Choctaw County’s population of about 13,000 is 56 percent white, 44 percent black, different from the town of Butler. As someone who has lived in Alabama for 41 years, I suspect Butler is like other places where historically, blacks more likely had to live outside of a town’s incorporated borders.… Read more »
I was trying to post the previous comment in reply to Tiffany’s earlier comment in the thread about the town’s demographics. Somehow, it ended up many comments down. Hope this doesn’t create confusion.
The same thing happened to me in 1988, only it was in West Texas and I tried to help Hispanics. We were required to vacate the parsonage by December the 23rd. My sons, who were 4 and 6 at thetime, cried when I had to pack up our Christmas tree and gifts.
Yep, my husband was voted out the Sunday after our daughter was born. Two sweet old ladies were visiting me and the baby in the parsonage next door to the church while the church was voting us out. Or other three kids suffered through this as well.
Wondering, kelly and angie, what ages your children are now and how they view church affiliation. My father befriended a black restaurant manager, helped him do his taxes, grew to love him and his white fiance and they accepted Christ and began to attend our church, while “living in sin”. This was in the 70s. People said they had issue with lack of marital status. My dad explained they were new christians and pointed out the hypocrisy of another couple who had attended for years, unmarried, but were white and related to a deacon..I watched my father love and minister… Read more »
Sometimes we should lead and teach our Church to believe the truth and go in God’s direction. People must be discipled and taught and led. There are many, many things that people, and even a group of people, believe and do that need changing. Changing takes time. But, there’s also a time to stand. There’s a time to die on a hill. Wisdom shows us when and what. Discernment helps us see what and when. If that Church really did fire this young man, because they didn’t want Black people to come to their Church, then that’s just wrong. Wrong… Read more »
I think its long past time to make racism a hill to die on – 100%, no dithering, no justifying, no defending. Some of you southern pastors seem to feel the need to state that your church isn’t racist. I guess I understand that – and I’m glad of it! Jonathan, in a conversation with me a few minutes ago, made it clear that in his association, Mt. Sterling is the exception. His association makes racial reconciliation a priority. I just put that in a small post above. But when this thing rears it ugly head, we need to act.… Read more »
Color of the heart is at the root of this problem.
In my mind this certainly sounds like a situation where they fired him due to his desire to invite blacks to church. It is curious how the church is so coy, however. The deacon says that they are not firing the pastor because of his outreach to blacks. If I understand it correctly, the entire church, all 31 people voted to fire him. But the pastor says that some in the church do not agree with the position that blacks should not be invited to church. If that is the case, why are there no votes not to fire the… Read more »
Maybe some voted as they did and have not spoken up over peer pressure? Such a small congregation is probably very close knit and possibly has several related individuals.
This church is evidently fairly united in their racism.
Jesus-Christ is God made flesh (Jn.1/14). Then, mankind is dignify in his divine Person. That’s the reason why all races are invited to salvation, because his humanity is oversized by his enhypostasia in the eternal Person of the Son of God. This reality explains: Col.3/11 or Gal.3/28. So, racism is a denying of Incarnation, as saint John said in his epistles (I Jn.2/22-23, 4/1-4, II Jn.7/11). Then, you cannot be a Christian if you are racist!
I’m going to quarrel with you. “You cannot be a Christian” – that is a judgment of a person’s salvation that puts you a very shaky foundation. Say, “you hold an anti-Christian position.” “You are not integrating your professed faith with your life.” “You give evidence that your faith might not be genuine.” Fine. But Christians are not sinless. There can be genuinely saved people who commit just about every sin in the book. I get the point of your comment and agree with it in the theoretical point – racism is unChristian. But the way you state it is… Read more »
I don’t make a judgment about a concrete guy, or person, but about a theoretical point. I cannot understand how a church isn’t able to understand this essential point of theology: that’s all.
While the judgment of my two colleagues Dave and Alan, is sober, usually sound, and reliable, I continue to be mildly troubled about calling out and shaming this church, now by name rather than anonymously. I think it improper to conclude that this church is united in racism, nor that it is a loathesome outlier in the association, particularly without a conversation with a single soul in that church. If this is as it has been portrayed then conversations relying on anonymous insiders with knowledge about the situation should be bolstered by names and relationships. Thus far, only the principal… Read more »
William, I have had other conversations today with people there involved with the situation personally. I have been told that my post was accurate. I am not sharing their names because I told them I wouldn’t, not because they asked me to. If you doubt me, I understand. I am confident that the story I was told is correct. Now, will other issues be put forward that are pointed to? Perhaps. Likely. But, I am confident that the underlying issue was race.
Are any of these people personally involved in the situation members of the church? If not, then something is missing in this.
Mr Thornton, Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect that if this was a case where a church fired a pastor, because the pastor wanted to report (or did report) a member for sexual abuse of a child, and the church wanted just to sweep it under the rug; you would be willing, able, and active in making sure that church was named in every possible medium so people knew they protected a child molester. Even if the church “claimed” that they fired the pastor for other reasons, you would still name them openly would you not? Now,… Read more »
SV, where you are wrong is in telling me what I would be doing. You don’t know my state of mind sufficiently to predict my future.
This is a church. Before we shame it, demonize it, at least let them have a say. I am uncomfortable wth this for reasons I’ve stated several times.
Hello all, my name is Eddie Pullen JR and I work for NAMB of the SBC. When I was in seminary at NOBTS, I actually interviewed with this exact church to be their pastor. My wife and I declined their call to us because they specifically stated that we would not be able to reach out to the local African American community. We were flabbergasted and sought clarity to which they unmistakably told us that they were not desirous to reach out to African Americans. One woman from the committee wept as she stated that we wouldn’t be able to… Read more »
And again Mr Thornton, I ask, would you have an issue if people with knowledge of a situation, “outed” a church that fired its pastor, because he wanted to bring a child molester to justice? If that church “claimed” they fired him because of “not visiting Church members”, and were completely silent about protecting a child molester, would you give that church the benefit of the doubt, and wait until they “had a say”? How much damage has been done in that area of “church automony”? When people don’t want to name churches that have protected child molesters? Would you… Read more »
Mr. William Thornton,
You said, “I think it improper to conclude that this church is united in racism…”
The vote was 31-0. Racism was the issue. That is pretty unified. However, I do know there are a few that did not agree with the racism, but they were outnumbered and apparently did not vote.
We must condemn an heresy. So, racism is an heresy, a Christological one. Then, when a church persevere in this way, we must excommunicate it, after advertisements. The rest is God’s business…
I found this article to be extremely revealing. Just this morning I shared with my wife, in prayer, how I felt the Lord calling me to become a part of the SBC and submit myself to working, leading, teaching, pastoring a White church. I realize this is insanely dangerous on so many levels. I first spoke with a Black pastor who quickly refuted my suggestion. He loves me. My point is that only a few hours later I read about this young man’s courageous stand against systemic and embedded evil. I truly pray the Lord was simply testing my heart.… Read more »
I attended a church almost completely white and pastored by Dr. Baucham. No one there cared anything about his skin color, but we loved his powerful messages and call to obey the scriptures.
I don’t think you will have a problem finding such a congregation to love and appreciate you, at least in Texas.
Thank you, I was wondering.
Here’s a good read – https://9marks.org/article/biblical-qualifications-and-responsibilities-deacons/
Indeed it is.
Ok. Since so many are certain about the facts as presented – Someone get the ball in motion, to culminate in Phoenix, and remove this church from the convention.
Let’s not just talk about it, do it. That’s something we can do as a convention.
Maybe some SBCer could have a conversation with the church folks before such things? Here’s a story that influences my reluctance to bring the power of social media to bear on this church: A local pastor was in conflict with our associational missionary. The AM wanted the associational executive committee to meet, pass a resolution of support for him, the same resolution naming and condemning the pastor (who was a bit of a nutcase). We met. The pastor to be condemned wasn’t present and wasn’t invited to the meeting. He wasn’t presented with the proposed resolution. He wasn’t asked for… Read more »
William,
Good points. I strongly agree.
David R. Brumbelow
I agree with your post and sentiments, William. Others, Is it not possible that many in the church agreed with the pastors sentiments but not the way he handled it? Is it possible that while racism among some may have been an impetus that there may be other issues at play with others? Perhaps various factions making up the 31 who voted him out were united in desire (firing the pastor) but not in reasoning? As pastors we all have a tendency and a natural desire to take the pastors side anytime there is a conflict within the church and… Read more »
Others, Is it not possible that many in the church agreed with the pastors sentiments but not the way he handled it?
Tarheel: Be careful with this argument. It’s been used before in an attempt to shield a wrongdoer from scrutiny. I agree with the need to tread softly, but this particular argument just set off all the warning alarms in my brain.
If that’s the standard, William, then all they have to do is do what this church is doing – refusing to talk. Then the story can’t be published. Can’t do a story on sex abuse because the accused refuses to give his side. Can’t do a story on **** because both sides won’t tell their side. This is NOT in doubt. Alan did better journalism here than major news organizations usually do. The story is not a question mark. The deacon talked to the press – he was surly, but he gave his story. But the truth cannot be held… Read more »
And William, if this was a story of sexual predation, you’d be on the other side. Not sure why you are taking this tack on a racism story.
It’s time we STOPPED defending and providing cover for racist churches. People, this has to stop. We cannot play this game anymore.
How many church members were the Deacons visiting and ministering to? That’s their purpose in the church.
William, David Brumbelow, Dave Cline, and others playing defense lawyer, I don’t get it. What will it take for us to get incensed about racism? The facts in this case are not in dispute. Alan has done an excellent job of research and has compelling evidence. Granted, he can’t source some of it because they spoke on condition of anonymity, but the facts have been established beyond any disputation. Jonathan Greer was fired because of racism, by a 31-0 vote of Mt. Sterling Baptist church. Here is my biggest frustration. Every time we write about racism here, we get the… Read more »
By the way, I realize not all of you made all of those arguments (though I think at least one of you has).
But I’m at the breaking point with some who seem to always want to defend the WRONG side on issues of racism and still maintain, “I’m not a racist.”
I don’t know what racism is or who is a racist.
But I know this – if you read a story like this and your response is, “Are we being fair to the church?” – well, I have to wonder a little bit about your perspective.
Don’t forget that racism is wrong, not because liberalism’s arguments, but because it is an heresy, a Christological heresy!
Dave Miller, Although I know it unwise to exchange in disagreement with the one who has the delete button and the shut down option – I have to respond here. ““I’m not a racist, but the Confederate flag is a good thing and we should fly it proudly.” “I’m not a racist, but let’s keep all “‘those people’ out of ‘our’ country.” “I’m not a racist, but when an innocent black man gets shot, its always his fault.” ” I guess if I had said any of those things, ever, in my life (except the I am not a racist… Read more »
I don’t much care for the problem solving approach that involves taking one of only two sides and then going at it. I am uncomfortable with this for reasons stated. Even if stipulating all that might be in dispute, I’m unsettled about it. It’s too neat and clean. I don’t like the idea of throwing out your pastor onto the curb. Neither do I like the idea of subjecting your former church to ridicule and contempt. I don’t set standards for this. You guys did what you thought right and proper. Fine. My peanut gallery objections won’t matter. If journalistic… Read more »
The church WAS contacted. The deacon lied. After that, they clammed up.
What more do you want?
“My expressed reservations are not a defense of racism, nor do they provide cover for it.”
Exactly. No one on this blog has defended racism. No one.
I wish our editor would get off his high horse and be willing even attempt to see that.
Here’s where I come down.
We need to fight racism and take an unequivocal, strong, bold stance against it. When we play petty games like this, we look like we are defending the racists – that’s what Southern Baptists have done for years. We’ve played defense lawyer for the indefensible.
We need to stop. I’m not advocating lynch mobs. I’m saying when the evidence is clear, don’t play defense lawyer for the church.
No one has defended the church. I have questioned what I see as unprofitable shaming of the church and have objected to this level of vitriol without even an attempt to contact church folks.
William, I challenge the notion that “shaming” is necessarily a bad thing. It is a practice you encourage in the sexual predation arena. I think it’s necessary here. What you call shaming I call “shining a light” and I think you vastly overstate the level of shaming that has gone on. We’ve called sin sin – a godly thing. We’ve called on the appropriate SBC entities to act. But when racism happens as egregiously as it happened here, and we don’t call it out, we are tacitly giving our approval. And to say that we cannot speak until a church… Read more »
And again, the church WAS approached and DID speak. The deacon was their “spokesman.” Rule #1 in church crisis management – appoint a spokesman and let him speak.That’s what all the books tell us. That’s what this church did. The deacon spoke and he was not credible. Are you saying that we should not speak until we give someone a plane ticket to Butler to interview the members? Do you hold SNAP to the same standard? Do not speak until the members of the accused church have spoken? NO! You cannot make that situation public because the accused has not… Read more »
Right again, William. If the association or state convention, who actually know the situation and the people involved, act based on gathered evidence and investigation – not assumptions and one sidedness – then we can all speak with clarity and definiteness to the specifics realting to this church – but until then – we only have a media report (where two diametrically opposed sides of the story are offered) and the word of Dave Miller and Alan Cross who believe they have reliable sources. Of course the church deacon who responded to the news is telling a different story…that could… Read more »
William: I must say your reaction does surprise me given what I would say is appropriate response to sexual predators in the church. I, like Dave, did not see your inquisition to a church who was silent in those cases. I do trust Alan and Dave when they say it has been checked and rechecked as well as those who know the church which has been spoken of. If the deacons are smart they may not speak, as adding lie to lie is fruitless at this point. I don’t see where a rush in judgment has been made. The facts… Read more »
My hat is off to him. I understand completely where is is co I got from. I was recently let go by a church who is struggling to keep the doors open from poor financial decisions over the years. I understand the struggle to show backbone and do the Biblical thing instead of just saving your job. I commend him on that. He was charged with leading and that comes at a cost sometimes. The deacons do not have the responsibility to God that a Pastor does, so the pastor did the right thing. It’s 2016 and racism is still… Read more »
Chad, in some of those small towns the people feel tremendous peer pressure to stick together and to support the group against “outsiders.”
It is possible that some of the folks actually agreed with Jonathan, but when push came to shove they voted with the group out of fear or loyalty. I don’t know.
Yes,…that is typical, and is probably the case here. It is tough to get an ultimatum from influential deacons / families in a small congregation. I feel for young men that get into these snake pits. There are typically some real Christians that make up the church at Mt. Sterling, but they will need to find a way to establish leadership that can help them get beyond prejudice when posed with the Word of God. Generally these tight nit families (ignorant of the Word) rule the church in opposition to Godly men. God has a way of dealing with these… Read more »
Dave, I think that’s a valid point. Given the small size of the church, I figure some non-racists have probably left over the years, given that there are other churches nearby in the association that don’t have a strong racist proclivity. However, if there are long-time members who have family members sleeping the back yard (they do have a fair-sized collection of rocks back there) and are willing to tolerate the racism in the church in order to keep the family plot together, then the last thing they would want to do is raise the hackles on the deacons who… Read more »
What I find completely amazing in this conversation is the group of people wanting to give the church the “benefit of the doubt” which means you are indirectly calling the former pastor a liar. Who has been forthcoming and made themselves available to all who wanted to talk to him? The pastor Who has dodged and refused to answer questions about the issue? The church If you have nothing to hide, then why not be more forthcoming. What’s even more frustrating to me is the insinuation that all people in the church may not be “racist” so we don’t want… Read more »
The whole story will come out in due time. If I had to “vote” right now I would probably trust Alan’s work (because he good at this stuff and I find him to be really honest) and vote for removal of this church – but you know what – not only do I not have to vote right now – its OK to choose to wait for more of the story to be revealed before speaking definitively – even (might I say especially these days) on issues connected to race. Remember this whole thing only happened less than 72 hours… Read more »
Dave Miller, Will you be willing to publicly apologize if the facts of this case come out differently than you now say? Not just delete comments and posts, but publicly apologize? Notice that I have not condemned the pastor or the church. I have said there are at least two sides to every story, and you have basically presented only one side. I can see how the pastor could be completely accurate, partly right, or very wrong. Same about the church, who hasn’t really been heard from. A church fires its pastor on Sunday, and before Wednesday you declare from… Read more »
Yes, David. The facts have been established pretty conclusively here. If the facts roll differently, I’ll apologize publicly.
Why are you so reluctant to accept the facts?
David R. Brumbelow,
I love you, brother, but sometimes there is only one side to a story.
However, let me quickly state that I do not think you a racist because you question this story. My point is simply one thing. There are not always “two” sides to a story. That’s just a fact.
“I can see how the pastor could be completely accurate, partly right, or very wrong. Same about the church, who hasn’t really been heard from.” I don’t understand your reluctance to accept a simple, verified story. The church HAS been heard from. The deacon spoke. And others who know that church well have verified the story. “A church fires its pastor on Sunday, and before Wednesday you declare from on high the pastor is pure, the church is racist, and the deacon lied.” Yes, because that is where the facts lead. We actually knew that by Monday night. Sometimes, David,… Read more »
The facts about this incident begin to come out:
http://www.bpnews.net/47325/racism-alleged-as-part-of-pastors-termination
David R. Brumbelow
Pretty much confirms what we’ve been saying all along.
Of course, I’m sure the deniers will find something in there to buttress their denials.
But 1. Racism was the issue
2. the deacon made up the visitation thing
I’m not sure it’s good news, but evidently we aren’t the only denomination plagued with racism and racists. A man named Stuart DiNenno has left a couple of comments here. He’s PCA and left a couple of blatantly racist and shameful comments. I emailed him and sent me his diatribe – a biblical defense of segregation.
He accuses the PCA of liberalism because they aren’t supporting segregation anymore.
He’s evidently a fairly successful Atlanta businessman.
This problem is REAL folks.
The other side of this story: “Our church is not racist,” Wimberley said. “We invite anyone that comes into our door to join us at any time. We welcome them. We ask them to be members.” Greer “misunderstood what the deacons said or just didn’t listen,” Wimberley said. She was not present for his sermon on racism because of a memorial event for her late husband but later listened to a recording of it and cited the sermon when asked the reason for Greer’s termination. “If you heard Jonathan’s sermon the Sunday before his dismissal,” Wimberley said, “it was not… Read more »
David B, thank you for sharing the BP story. I am persuaded the DOM knows more about this situation than those of us who couldn’t find Butler, AL with a GPS.
Dean,
Thanks. A lot.
The first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him. -Proverbs 18:17
David R. Brumbelow
Dean Stewart,
I can find Butler without even a road map. Been there many times.
David R. Brumbelow, You have correctly quoted the Proverb. Yet, there are still stories that have only one side. And again, I am not arguing about this story. I am saying that the adage, “There’s always two sides to the story” is not always correct and it’s not.
“Let me share a story here if I may, Dave Miller?” “Sure, cb. Anytime, Ole Buddy, Ole Pal and Exalted BAMA Fan, living in the land of the Great SEC.” “Thanks, Dave. BTW I met your associate this past Monday evening. He is a nice guy.” Here’s the story. Several years ago, in an Alabama Baptist church while serving as pastor, I had a strong youth outreach. Several young guys were involved: some Black, some White, Some Mexican. As time went on two of the young Black guys made strong professions of faith. They wanted to be baptized. I told… Read more »
CB, you are 100% on the money. There’s more wrong with the issue of racism in the US than white people thinking and acting unkindly toward black people. Saying that often earns the people who say it all kinds of vile from others who think that racism only goes in one direction. There’s only one problem with what you said, though. It isn’t particularly relevant here. Racism from some of the white members of this church is still just as wrong. I have to end on a positive note, though, and I don’t recall if I’ve ever shared this anywhere… Read more »
Jim Pemberton,
What happened to you was not racism. It was bigotry, pure $GREEN.00 bigotry.
Remember when articles were posted on other blogs attacking David Platt based on one sides “anonymous sources close to the issue”. The editor of this blog along with others on here, me included, hollered from the tops of the internets that we need to wait until the facts were out and the “other side” (David Platt) was allowed to respond. That aside. If the church were to release a statement (for example) outlining numerous offenses of the pastor that did not include racist stuff, as their reasoning for the no confidence vote (which by the way would be HIGHLY improper)….would… Read more »
“Folks, racism is not always White. It can definitely be Black and I have, on more than one occasion, experienced it.” -C. B. Scott
C. B., I agree, and also have personal knowledge along those lines.
David R. Brumbelow
Until you have been treated as this church treated inviting the black community to VBS, then cancelled it, until you have been denied being served at a eating establishment because of the color of your skin, or denied a job because of the color of your skin and I can go on and on this garbage about “Racism is not always white” means nothing. You have no idea what true racism is, so get over yourself. White privilege has always been and it seems always will be. So to say this is simply ridiculous. And David B: They have one… Read more »
I’m sure you guys who have doubted Jonathan’s every word will jump on that lady’s word as the gospel truth.
I’m disgusted and I’m walking away. It’s a sad day.
“I’m sure you guys who have doubted Jonathan’s every word will jump on that lady’s word as the gospel truth.”
So she is a liar (1)? The DOM (2) lied about there being “other issues involved as well”, the deacon(3) lied about his “lack of visitation”?
To correct the record: That is actually three people that you are publicly calling liars – and none of us on the forum that I have seen called the pastor a liar.
I agree with what Dean has said…..lets leave it in the Associations hands. (I have no clue where Butler, Alabama is)
Another statement from the other side of this story:
Wimberley, who has been a Mt. Sterling member 20 years, said the church has received expressions of “hate” since Sunday and that the termination was not about racism. The congregation long has had a black member, she said, though that member currently lives out of town and was not present for the vote.
http://www.bpnews.net/47325/racism-alleged-as-part-of-pastors-termination
David R. Brumbelow
David, you did nothing but question, deny, and doubt Jonathan’s story.
Now that someone speaks up denying the racism aspect, you log on trumpeting it.
That seems odd.
Baptist press did a good job with conversations from the DOM and church member. Alan said he wanted to help the terminated pastor, not condemn the church. Commendable. Dave called this for what it was, racism in the church, and condemned it. It just wasn’t without other serious issues nor as clean a case of such as it looked. I was uncomfortable with going down this road this way without more conversations with the church. I don’t question the use of SBCV to point out injustice. To terminate the pastor with no severance is not the right course either. I… Read more »
It seems to me that there’s a lot more interest for some in DENYING what this is than in DEALING with the problem.
Well tell us – what are your suggestions for dealing with the church – the director of missions Who ackknowledges racism issues in the church (but states there were other reasons at play as well) – said in the baptist press article that he did not think that the church should be disfellowshipped – what do you suggest??
Not sure why anyone should “deal” with the church. They made their decision. It was public. A pastor was fired without severance. They made their choice. After the fact, they say it had nothing to do with race. Others say differently. People will believe what they want to. This pastor had courage and should be supported. Too many just go along to get along. That is the point of this post. If there had not been a news article that I referred to and got information from, there would have been no mention of the church at all. They are… Read more »
I accidentally placed this in the wrong thread. Apologies. I tend to agree with Robert Hughes when he says, “In stress, angry people who don’t have enough language (or whose language is merely the servant of an agenda) reach for the most emotive word they can find: ‘racist’ being today’s quintessential example, a word which, like ‘fascist’, raises so many levels of indistinct denunciation that it has lost whatever stable meaning it once had.” So I have sympathy with those who say not everything that is called racism is outright racism. Having said that I see some tremendous problems even… Read more »
What Mike said.
I’ve largely stayed out of this thread because I didn’t really have time to put my thoughts together, but Mike L, you said it well. 🙂
(my middle name begins with L, so can I just go by Mike L and claim your post?)
Mike, on #1 if they fail to reach-out to all races equally is it still racism?
That’s a question with way too many unknowns to answer.
I’ve just got to walk away from this for a while. I’m so angry right now I can’t see straight – and that is kind of unusual for me. For 2 days I heard this constant refrain doubting Jonathan – though all the facts back his story. As soon as one lady in the church gives a slightly different story, you guys jump on that and act like he’s been disproven and the allegations of racism are negated. I am angrier right now than I’ve been in a long time. Someone has to explain why you are so quick to… Read more »
Brother, perhaps I may be viewed as inciting discord, but truly I am not intending my comments to have such an effect. Then again, I recall Paul’s words to the Corinthian church concerning how his letters were bringing about bouts of consternation – “8 I am not sorry that I sent that severe letter to you, though I was sorry at first, for I know it was painful to you for a little while. 9 Now I am glad I sent it, not because it hurt you, but because the pain caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the… Read more »
This is the 2nd time the PCA has been mentioned. This guy, Stuart DiNenno, may or may not be associated with https://www.facebook.com/ConcernedPresbyterians/ This “Concerned Presbyterians are part of the Kinist movement. A FB group I am in, PCA Teaching and Ruling elders, had a post on them back in July. I read the comments and learned that basically these people in some cases claim to be PCA but use fake names on FB and so are virtually impossible to identify. Most of us doubt they are actually PCA members or pastors, but if so and can be identified would be… Read more »
Yes. Stuart DiNenno – the racist from Atlanta – is involved with Concerned Presbyterians. He sent me their disgusting manifesto. It makes you feel dirty just reading it.
Dave Miller,
You said, “David, you did nothing but question, deny, and doubt Jonathan’s story.”
No, I did not. I simply wanted, and eventually presented, the other side of the story; the side you and Alan did not present.
Read my comments again.
Read your comments again.
Read the Baptist Press story again.
Then calm down and do some reflection.
If you are true to your word, and take off your blinders, you have some public apologizing to do.
David R. Brumbelow
David, the BP story buttressed everything I’ve been saying.
I’ve already apologized for becoming angry. But other than that, factually, our story was correct.
New statement at SBC Voices:
“Church now says they did not fire the pastor because of racism.”
Did the church say earlier that they did fire their pastor because of racism, and have now changed their story?
If so, I don’t recall. Yet, that is what the statement implies.
How about being fair to both sides?
http://www.bpnews.net/47325/racism-alleged-as-part-of-pastors-termination
David R. Brumbelow
Oh. My. Goodness.
There’s no point in discussing anything related to racism with you, David.
David, the original news article from the local TV station has a deacon of the church saying the pastor was fired for not visiting members. Now the church is saying it is because of a sermon that was filled with “anger and hate”. So what is it? The only one whose story is remained constant is Pastor Greer’s, the churches story has changed. Again, I wonder if the church will ever make available this sermon that was now the “main reason” for the pastor’s termination. Again, I doubt they will as it likely would blow a hole in their argument.… Read more »
And don’t forget the DoM saying that racism probably played the most significant factor in the termination.
That and the consistency of the sides do paint a clear picture that racism still played it’s role in all of this, though other factors might have been present.
David B., What did I miss in the BP article? Clearly the church fired him as a result of a strong biblical message that he preached on race. They scheduled the vote after his message. He preached the message in response to whatever the deacons said to him regarding race as it relates to community VBS invitations. The roots of this firing can be traced to the deacons statements to Pastor Greer regarding race. Again, what am I missing? How can u deny that race & racism are at the bottom & top of this Pastor being fired, based on… Read more »
I don’t think you missed anything, but there are other perspectives that almost certainly do not have racism as the motivation. The story could be just as it has been presented. Those presenting it obviously think they know the facts but are possibly blind to legitimate issues with how it has been presented. From just the last few posts, it seems that problems on this site include jumping to conclusions that cannot be known from what has been presented as well as strong attempts to silence anyone who does not toe-the-line on the surety of knowing the hearts of all… Read more »
“You are denying that grass is green; water is wet; ice is cold; eggs are poultry; and George Wallace was never a racist. WHAT AM I MISSING?”
Off subject, but perhaps of some interest since you brought up Gov Wallace, is that he was a repentant racist and won the black vote for his last term of office (1983-1987). He was forgiven by many blacks contemporary to him, but has been vilified anew by those with no first hand knowledge. I met Gov Wallace, after his repentance, and liked him a lot.
Well said, Dwight. Unfortunately, there are some who can see the splinter in a neighbor’s eye, but not the whole tree in their own.
John
Dwight, You asked, “What am I missing?” Quite a lot. One thing you are missing is, that I am interested in the truth about this situation, not just one biased side of the story; like you just presented. I think the BP article did a pretty good job of being fair to both sides. Dwight, are you interested in the truth about this and other situations? Or just feelings? For example, are you interested in the truth about Ferguson, MO? I’m a lot more interested in the truth rather than feelings. I think our righteous God is as well. I… Read more »
That’s an incredibly arrogant and self-serving statement, David – as if only you are interested in truth.
What has frustrated me here is your unwillingness to accept the clear and plain truth. You pretty much engaged in name-calling and derogation toward us for reporting the truth.
I would trust the DOM. He says racism probably played a major role, and that they made a horrible decision. Regardless, they are ruined. Ichabod!
Adam, why would you trust the DOM? I’m not saying he isn’t trustworthy, but if you don’t know him personally how can you make that statement? And, if he isn’t familiar with both the church members and the pastor he is only making an educated guess at best. The DOM of my association has never been to my church and would not be able to make any statements regarding it other than what others would have told him. The reality is we have the Pastor’s statement and other statements that are cobbled together. I think the church overreacted and fired… Read more »
Agreed, Nate. All good points. I’ll highlight two:
“Unless there is a history of occurrences that this young pastor did for his entire tenure…”
“Let’s wait and see if fuller facts become available. I doubt they will.”
These have been the crux my points all along. We just don’t know – we don’t have the whole story.
Nate,
1. The SBC has a system of dealing with these things despite NAMB’s overreach.
2. If a man can’t be trusted he should not be put in a position. Trust leadership until given a reason not to do so.
3. The DOM has said racism probably played a major factor, knowing the history of the church.
Its late at this point, but it would have been wonderful to get the DOM or some other Pastors in the area to come around Jonathan and help him through this situation, it could have salvaged his relationship with the body and allowed him to continue to preach the Word. Those in Corinth had similar struggles, and as Paul was absent, it probably took a good 8-12 months just to get one of the major sins addressed as was depicted in his second letter to the group. Young Pastors need to be surrounded by some seasoned men whether at that… Read more »
Amen and Yes.
“Young Pastors need to be surrounded by some seasoned men whether at that church or surrounding local bodies. That would greatly help both the young Pastor and the parts of the body that have not recognized the nastiness that sin demonstrates …eventually involving the entire congregation.” OK, Ladies and Gentlemen, No matter what is true or not true of this particular post, and I have no real or valid reason to doubt it, what Chris Johnson has stated here is an absolute truth and of founded well on the New Testament. Young guys needs help to develop as pastors and… Read more »
Yes, cb… I am grateful for those men that were patient with me as well, and helped me to be patient with others, while at the same time confronting sin and preaching the Word of God. Preaching and teaching is difficult work, and wise counsel is always a welcomed sight as the storm clouds are brewing within the body.
The only assistancw Mt. Sterling needs is in closing their doors. Unless one or two of those who continue to disbelieve the facts presented in this case want to go there and pastor.
The lamp stand has been removed. All that remains is a building and a sign to indicate a church once met there.
No room for repentence?
You reference their lampstand – assuming you’re referring to the first couple of chapters in Revelation – I don’t have my Bible in front of me but I’m pretty sure that even Jesus use the phrase when speaking to churches “unless you repent” – I think we’ve got to be really careful pronouncing judgment without leaving room for repentance.
There is One who can remove a lampstand and one who pronounces Ichabod and He doesn’t contribute to blogs.
I’m not removing anything Dean. I’m commenting on what has already happened and is obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Heel, sure repentance can happen. You moving there to pastor that “church?” Fellas, 31 people voted to fire a pastor for calling them to repentance. The reason has gone from “not visiting enough” to an “angry and hateful sermon.” To whatever else is now being used as an excuse. Here’s what we know. A pastor reacted rightly to grevious sin. He performed his prophetic duty. They booted him. Jesus instructions to his disciples when they were not received was… Read more »
Chris, exactly right!
You sure is smart! 😉
Chris, they did come around the pastor. They worked with him throughout this process for two weeks.
Alan,….That seems like a very short period of time to work through this type of issue. He didn’t have a lot of time at the church as well, only into his second year. I’m sure there is a lot to unpack there….that I’m not at all aware of. Its good also if these other Pastors were able to meet with the Pastor and these deacons in question with the Mt. Sterling church as well for that much needed support over time. It is good for other churches to see other Godly men in agreement. Sounds like it is way past… Read more »
Chris, they had been in fellowship for some time prior. I was speaking to the actual crisis. This association was trying to do good things. I never said otherwise.
It’s so refreshing and hopeful to know that the Spirit of Truth has not abandoned those who remain a part – although a remnant – of this organization. It’s so often the fact that the most racist people I know are actually members of SBC Churches. I live in S.C. and have been experiencing it with such stalwart rigidity I’m actually afraid for their eternal damnation to be more of a resignation to it than a sin of willful omission.
Thank you sir.
If the church didn’t fire the pastor because of racism then invite a black pastor to preach next Sunday and help them work through this situation in a redemptive way. (smile)
Holding my breath in Sioux City.
Steve,
Have you asked a Black pastor to preach in the church of which you serve?
Actually, we have several times. But good point. My snarky comment was intended to suggest that the church in this controversy certainly could take clear steps to show that racism wasn’t the issue if it wasn’t (but the facts do seem to point to racism as the real reason for this pastor’s firing.)
Well said, Steve. I had a cousin (now deceased) who was DOM in Bessemer, John L. Smith. He was invited to a prominent pulpit in Birmingham (in the late ’70s or early ’80s) when they were without a pastor, and after his sermon, several members of their pulpit committee came and asked him to submit his resume. His response, according to him and I believe it, was that they did not want him as pastor. They asked why, and he said if he was their pastor, he would insist that they minister and reach out to the people all around… Read more »