NOTE: I’ve been discussing this issue with Marty King of LifeWay over the last couple of days. His response on behalf of LifeWay is attached below. While we are not seeing this the same way, I am appreciative of LifeWay’s responsiveness and willingness to talk these things through.
World Changers has been coming to Sioux City, Iowa as long as I have lived here (7 years) and for some time before that. When you minister outside of the established SBC states, in what are now called “new work” states, you come to appreciate ministries like World Changers. Southern Baptists struggle for credibility here, battling impressions and prejudices people have formed. One of the most significant things that has happened in Iowa Baptist work is the Disaster Relief response during our 1993 mega-flood and during subsequent disasters. When Baptists show up doing practical ministries like these, there is a credibility established that helps us all.
World Changers has done that in Sioux City. The powers-that-be in the city (and South Sioux City, NE) know what World Changers is and love it. Southern Baptists have established a presence here and developed credibility in the community. Every year there would be a feature in the paper and news reports on our local stations about the work being done. In the neighborhoods in which the teams work, people are amazed and thankful that young people would come from all over the country to Sioux City to work on their homes. We have sent out evangelism teams and shared the gospel in neighborhoods where work was being done.
A couple of days ago, we got word that World Changers was no longer going to serve Sioux City.
We are not happy with this decision and I understand that there are others in places that World Changers used to serve and no longer will that are as befuddled, bewildered and saddened by this decision as we are.
The Crux of the Issue
Obviously, LifeWay cannot serve everyone. There cannot, at this point, be a World Changers in ever town in America. And they have the right to set their priorities and go where they wish to go; where they feel they will get the best return on their missions investment. But I have asked LifeWay privately, and now will ask again publicly, to reconsider what they are doing. Here is the heart of the issue:
World Changers, according to my research, is leaving behind ministries in new work states and focusing more on old-line states where SBC work is already established. When I voted for (and promoted) the GCR, we were told that one of the reasons for this was to focus on the “new work” states and emphasize them more in ministry. The opposite seems to be happening. It seems to us that the trend at World Changers is to lessen involvement in New Work states and focus on the established states.
Just the Facts, Dave
I did a little bit of numbers crunching at the World Changers website.
- In 2012, there were 88 World Changers sites listed on the website. Of those 88, 25 took place in new work states, in Canada, or in Puerto Rico. That is 28.4% of the sites outside the established SBC states.
- In 2013 (after the changes) there will be 84 sites according to the site. Of those, only 16 are in new work states or Puerto Rico. That is 19%.
Note: LifeWay argues that West Virginia is a new work state and should not be considered as part of the established SBC or old line states. I am continuing to consider them as a Southern state in both years’ statistics – they are, after all, south of the Mason-Dixon line. LifeWay has also presented me with different figures on the 2013 sites. However, I rechecked and at this writing (2:50 CDT on 9/6/2012), the website agrees with my numbers, not theirs. Obviously, they could change the website at any time.
That seems to me to be a significant drop. From 25 sites to 16. From 28.4% to 19%. But even more interesting is a look at what sites were eliminated and what sites were added.
- World Changers eliminated ministries in Hawaii, Iowa, New Mexico, Wyoming, New York (2 sites in 2012) Michigan, Vermont and Canada (2 sites). Anyone see a trend there?
- In addition, there were reductions in ministries in California (3 sites to 2), Illinois, (3 sites to 1) and Alaska (2 sites to 1).
- There will be no World Changers ministry this coming year in the Northeast, in the Upper Midwest, in the Plains states, in the Mountain states or in the Southwest (not including Texas).
Where did program increases occur?
- Alabama went from 9 projects to 12 projects.
- Arkansas increased from 4 to 5.
- Georgia increased from 6 to 8.
- Louisiana increased from 2 to 5.
- Tennessee increased from 4 to 7.
- Missouri increased from 3 to 5.
- Oklahoma increased from 1 to 2.
- Mississippi increased from 2 to 4.
- West Virginia increased from 2 to 4.
For the record, I do not regret a single one of those increases. If World Changers has the same effect in those cities that it has in Sioux City, I hope that they continue to add cities in the South. My regret is that they are adding cities in the South while they are eliminating ministry in cities in the North, Midwest, and West.
Are the needs in Birmingham, Alabama greater than the needs in Sioux City, IA? There are 8 projects in Birmingham next year. Good for Birmingham. But could they have gotten by with six or seven, and the programs in Iowa, Wyoming or New York might not have been eliminated? There are going to be 8 projects in Georgia. Couldn’t there maybe have been a couple less and World Changers could still minister in Vermont or Michigan?
Every one of those project is important in Mississippi and Tennessee and North Carolina. But I want you to know how much good those programs do in Iowa, in Wyoming, in Michigan, in New York – in the places where Southern Baptists are seen as outsiders invading foreign soil.
Why Are They Doing This?
The stated reason in the press releases that have come out is that they want to focus more on cities. We have also been told that one of the main reasons places like Sioux City and Casper, Wyoming were eliminated was travel costs. I’m sure they had their reasons.
I am not saying that the Student Ministries leaders at LifeWay are evil people or that they do not care about ministry. But I am asking that they reconsider this decision. Does it have to be either/or? Can we not keep some ministries in big cities and still go to places where this ministry has such a powerful effect by giving credibility to isolated Southern Baptists and our small churches.
I really don’t like confrontation or fighting. That is why CB Scott used to call me Huggy Bear Dave. But I agreed to run as 2nd Vice President at least partially to advocate for Baptists outside the SBC-dominant regions. That is what I am doing here. We feel something like the Hellenistic widows of Acts 6, that we are being overlooked in the distribution of ministry.
Good folks at LifeWay, leaders of the Student Ministries department, I ask you to reconsider this decision to pull back from World Changers ministries in new work areas to focus on more ministries in the established SBC states. We need the ministry of World Changers in Kansas and Nebraska, in Utah, in Wyoming and Montana and Idaho, in New York and Vermont and I can tell you from my own experience, we could sure use it here in Iowa.
I hope you will reconsider your decision.
It should be noted that World Changer’s sister program, called Power Plant, designed to aid in church planting, is indeed focused on large cities most of which are outside the SBC’s stronghold areas. I applaud that. However, I am focused on World Changers, because it is different from Power Plant. World Changers helps in building credibility in a city by practical love and service. I’m sure Power Plant would be a great program, but in areas like Sioux City, World Changers is what we need.
2013 World Changers and PowerPlant will reach new work and old line states
By Marty King, LifeWay Christian Resources
Thank you, first of all, Dave, for your concern for reaching Iowa and the other states that are typically referred to as ‘new work states’ by the SBC. Obviously, we share that passion which is why LifeWay offers programs and resources like World Changers and PowerPlant.
We’re also appreciative of the approach and tone you’ve taken in your post. You give credit where it’s due, but take issue where you disagree and have concerns, even citing statistical information to support your views. And, you’ve invited LifeWay to respond. THIS is the way discourse and discussion should be conducted among brothers and sisters in Christ.
We have announced changes in the World Changers and PowerPlant programs for next year. Change is hard, especially when it impacts us. Deciding to discontinue World Changers and PowerPlant weeks in any community – large or small, north or south (east or west), World Changers or PowerPlant – is difficult for our Student Ministry team. But, as you acknowledge, “there can’t be a World Changers in every town in America.”
But, I assure you the changes we’ve made do not “leave behind ministries in new work states (to focus) more on old line states.” I appreciate your attempt to compare the 2012 and 2013 schedules, but there are so many factors that make the comparisons apples to oranges. For instance, some weeks listed on the 2012 schedule were not held because they didn’t fill up. Other weeks are not being repeated in 2013 because the local association or state convention said they weren’t ready to repeat. Those and other factors make it difficult to compare.
But, I can tell you that while we’ve dropped 13 cities in new work states next year (including yours, unfortunately), we’ve also dropped a 12 cities in old line states. And, even though we’re adding 11 weeks of World Changers in 4 old line states next year, we’re also adding 21 weeks in 8 new work states.
It’s simply not true that we’re moving out of new work states to bolster old line states. In fact, 42% of all World Changers and PowerPlant projects in 2013 will be in old line states.
World Changers projects do tend to be more in the southern states (73% old line states and 27% in new work states), but PowerPlant is the opposite. 87% of PowerPlant weeks are in new work states.
One change we are making is that we’re attempting to follow the North American Mission Board’s lead in focusing more on larger cities as we attempt to have a larger impact by staying longer in the great lost metropolitan areas of our country – a concept much at the heart of the Great Commission Resurgence. But, a quick review of the 2013 schedule shows we’re not abandoning smaller towns and cities like Neptune, N.J., Cherokee, N.C., Bonne Terre, Mo., and Winston, Or.
So, I’m afraid we need to decline your request to “reconsider this decision to pull back from World Changers ministries in new work areas to focus on more ministries in the established SBC states” because, simply, we’re not doing that.
We will, however, make two commitments to you, Dave, and to any others concerned about these issues:
1. We will continue to review and evaluate our World Changers and PowerPoint schedules, being sensitive to yours and others’ concerns, in order to provide the most effective mission experience for the participants and the communities where they’re held.
2. If there are communities interested in exploring the prospect of coordinating their own World Changers’ type program, as you’ve suggested Sioux City might be, our staff will assist them in any way possible, such as sharing processes, programs, policies and procedures that we’ve found effective.
Again, thank you for sharing your concerns and your audience with us Dave. We would appreciate everyone’s prayer support for our staff as they continue to call students to the front line of missions.
I am a fan of LifeWay. But a couple of years ago, WC passed from NAMB to LifeWay and some significant changes were made.
We, outside the SBC-dominant regions, are not liking some of these changes.
I am thankful to have an opportunity to voice our views on behalf of others in the outlying regions.
I am also thankful that Marty King and LifeWay have listened (even if they disagreed) to our complaints.
But Dave, it’s Iowa. Dropping Michigan, on the other hand, is truly a sad development. 😉
Well, I think they took a look at how Michigan laid down against the Alabama Evil Tide and said, “We aren’t going there anymore.”
Laid down? More like “got beat down” as my Crimson Tide rolled to another glorious victory over the forces of evil and darkness. LOL
You know that I am a big proponent of Lifeway, and I appreciate how they have supported me and many other Southern Baptists. I hope we can find a way to work together to get more ministry in Sioux City and other new work states.
I am not a fan of Lifeway. I think their slogan “Biblical solutions for life” should be changed to the more accurate “If it’ll make us a buck, we’ll doggone well sell it” or “Got my mind on my money and my money on my mind”.
However, the fact that this gentleman responded and was as respectful as he was shows a ton of class. I can respect someone like that even if I don’t agree with them.
Joe, I think that is a tremendously unfair accusation. Yes, LifeWay sells products and sometimes I would make a different choice as to what to sell, perhaps, but to accuse them of abandoning their responsibility to God to serve money is an accusation against their character and integrity that I think you should rethink.
One day, you will give account for every word you speak. Do you really want to stand before God and account for words like these? Do you really want to give account for accusing the hundreds (thousands?) of LifeWay employees and their trustees of not caring about the Kingdom of God or serving Christ, but of only having money on their mind.
Sometimes, you need to think before you hit the “submit” button.
I think a problem I have (one of many) is that I tend to make sweeping generalizations and paint with a giant sized brush. I mean, I know at least one person at Lifeway personally, used to go to church with them, and they were embarrassed that Lifeway sold The Shack, for instance. So I do know that not everyone there is “all about the Benjamins”. Therefore, my comment was needlessly broad, but it was quicker to type that than try to say “Well, I know there are a lot of good people at Lifeway who love the gospel and are committed to faithfulness to God’s word, but….”
I mean, that wore me out typing that. 🙂
Joe, Lifeway is non-profit, so the accusation of trying to make a buck doesn’t add up. All profits go back to the cooperative program.
Thanks, Dan. Actually, if you’re going to make such a ridiculous statement, you might want to take it up with someone who isn’t an accoutant.
Being not for profit, or a 501(c)3, does mean that you don’t have profit. It does NOT mean that you don’t have an excess of revenues over expenditures. So you “make money” in that you sold stuff for more than it cost you to sell it, but because of your 501(c)3 status, you don’t recognize that as income and are not taxed.
Now, I haven’t looked at (and don’t know if they’re available) at Lifeway’s finacials but I’ll bet you on their Income Statement they have an excess of revenues over expenditures if not every year most years.
You’re welcome.
If I were a Trustee at LifeWay, I would vote to pull the Shack. I think it is heresy – a perverted view of the Trinity. We do not have it in our church library and I wish LifeWay didn’t sell it.
But that is a decision I disagree with. I can respect them and appreciate what LifeWay does even while thinking the Shack is an abomination against the truth and wishing they did not sell it.
It’s been years since I’ve been in Lifeway so I’m asking–someone said they sold TD Jakes (before he “recanted” modalism) and Joel Osteen. Do you know if that’s so? Going on hearsay here.
When did he recant modalism?
Mark, TD Jakes has affirmed his belief in the Trinity, but there are some who are still dissatisfied with his statements. I don’t know enough about him to give my judgment.
So, Dave, do you know if they did sell Jakes stuff and Olsteen’s? Guess I could look on their website but, well, I’m lazy.
I worked at Lifeway for 2 years while getting my church off the ground. We did not sell anything by Joel Osteen. In fact, peple were usually ticked that we didn’t sell books by him.
We could order books by TD Jakes but we did not keep them on the shelves (which bothered me because I happen to like Jakes, but that’s another conversation)
We did sell The Shack.
“but to accuse them of abandoning their responsibility to God to serve money is an accusation against their character and integrity that I think you should rethink.”
The Shack?
What is your point?
There were promises made to remove The Shack from Lifeway after it was mentioned that this would be brought up at the Convention. After the Convention Lifeway promptly brought The Shack back and promoted it up front in special displays.
I know nothing about that. LifeWay trustees make decisions such as this, as I understand it.
I guess I was looking more for anecdotal information like “I’ve never seen it in Lifeway” or “I remember they had it in there a few years ago but I haven’t seen it lately” or something. Just curious.
I’m pretty sure Dave’s point was that I can’t say that EVERYBODY at Lifeway is a money-grubbing, gospel denying tool just because someone or a few someones made the decision to sell The Shack. And, he’s rigtht.
This emphasis that the SBC places on “old work states” as opposed to “new work states”, is part of the reason I’m considering(slowly) leaving the SBC. I’m a Yankee, currently living in the south(near Memphis, TN, in Mississippi). It astonished me, when I moved down here, the enormous amount of churches. There are quite possibly more churches in a twenty-five mile radius of me than there were in the entire state that I moved here from. I sort of knew of two SBC churches near where I used to live. But I didn’t know much about either of them, although I did visit one of them once. I didn’t even realize they were SBC churches until I visited them. Quite honestly, I don’t think I knew anything about them.
But when I moved down here, I began attending SBC churches. I’ve been a member of an SBC church for a few years now. But as I’ve started paying attention to the convention and everything, I’ve found a lot of things I don’t like. For example, how money given to the NAMB tends to cycle back around to the old-work states where it came from, as the GCR report told us(I think the numbers were approximately two-thirds of CP dollars were going back to the south, where one-third of the population of the US resides). It seems, from my point of view, where I sit, that the SBC is mostly concerned with keeping the South full of churches. It doesn’t seem as concerned with getting funds, missionaries, and help to areas like the Midwest, West, North, Northeast, etc. That’s kind of a broad generalization, I realize, but that’s the way it seems. Now, certainly there are folks who are very interested in getting money and missionaries out of the South and into more unreached areas. But I fear that their efforts seem to get thwarted far too often.
How can I say this politely? ….That is absurd.
How so?
“””It astonished me, when I moved down here, the enormous amount of churches.”””
I see this statement offered often in numerous discussions. Generally, it is accepted as a prima facia argument that transcends any challenge.
The fact is: we could have a church on every corner working diligently and honorably and still have people who are not being reached.
I currently am sitting in a McD’s. This location grosses over 1 million a month. It is one of two in my city of 128,000. The lady owns seven in our area and is currently opening a second within a couple miles of this one.
My point is: two McD’s sells more burgers than one McD’s. The sales potential is not determined by how many McD’s there are, but by how many people there are to buy burgers.
I would bet my life (or, at least Joe Blackmon’s life) that a church could be planted anywhere in the South and grow consistently for the next 20 or so years and never run out of potential members.
Texas, for example, has one of the highest counts of evangelical churches anywhere in the U.S. They also have one of the largest populations of unchurched people in the world.
So, I don’t think that “counting churches” is a good way to measure where there is potential for reaching people.
Let me add a follow-up to this: Why can’t a “church” be a World-changer? Why can’t a “church” put on a new roof of a needy person in their own town? Why can’t a “church” paint the house of a blind lady?
The answer to “changing the world” does not depend on Nashville. I don’t think a missionary effort increases in value dependent upon how far the missionary travels.
I would bet my life (or, at least Joe Blackmon’s life)
I know you dit’nt. I KNOW you dit’nt.
That’s a perfectly valid point. I just find it…odd, that there’s such a focus on an area where so many churches are at already, and so little focus in areas where there are fewer churches, and far fewer Gospel preaching churches. There is certainly plenty of opportunity to preach the Gospel to people here in the South. But on the other hand, it seems that it’s an awful lot like the early church in Jerusalem, where they stayed in their own area until persecution hit, and only then did they start going to Samaria and everywhere else. Now I’m not saying that the SBC is completely ignoring the rest of the world. The IMB does a great job of getting missionaries overseas. The NAMB does do some good work with helping stateside missionaries get started. My concern is that it seems like often we’re concerned with taking care of our ‘Judea’, and our ‘uttermost parts of the earth’, but we don’t pay as much attention to our ‘Samaria’ as we do to Judea or Uttermost(analogy being that the south is our Judea, outside the US is the ‘Uttermost’, and areas in the US outside the south our “Samaria”). Certainly there is great potential for evangelism in the south, in spite of the large amount of churches. But at the same time, there are people dying in towns in the Northeast or out West, where there is no Gospel presence at all. There are towns that have no church, or no Gospel-preaching church, or where their pastor has left and they have nobody to fill the pulpit. Someday I want to return back up there, to take the Gospel to those areas. All I’m saying, is that down south here, there is a plethora of churches, while there are so many towns outside the south where there are no churches at all. And yes, you’re certainly right about Texas. Different parts of Texas have some of the lowest church-per-capita ratings in the nation. Talking about the South in general, you’re looking at I think something like 15 churches for every 10,000 people. Utah, however, has 1 church for every 18,000+ people. Go into the Northeast, and you’ll find areas that are 1 church for every 4,000+ people. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t work to reach the south, we certainly should. I’m saying that more resources should be allocated to reach the areas outside of the south, like the Northeast and the West. That we should do more to show the need of these areas to young men desiring to be pastors, and that we should hope and pray for men and families to be sent to these areas to plant new churches, or to take over existing churches where their pastor has left. There is a lot more I could say here, but I’d probably better not. I’d probably get myself in trouble, because I’m still a relatively young man, and I might be speaking out of turn on this subject.
Will,
You are an observant young man. I remarked to my Mother on a recent trip to visit her in Georgia that with all the churches in Georgia where she lives there shouldn’t be a lost person in the county!
Sadly that’s not true nor will it ever be true.
However in the area she lives I discovered that World Changers had over 1000 volunteers involved in 5 projects in recent years that refurbished homes at no cost to the homeowners. It was interesting that one of the homes was an antebellum 14 room home that my family lived in during the 1960s. The home is on a small farm out in the country and was owned at the time by people in the medical profession. Since the home was built in 1849 I’m sure it needed some repairs – Any house that old always does – but the people who owned it while World Changers were there were not destitute nor were they living under the poverty line.
It is examples like these over the years that have tended to deflate my enthusiasm for the World Changers.
Dave-
Thanks for the way you have addressed this, even in (or especially in) disagreement. It helps lift the profile of blogging, for which many will be (or should be) thankful.
Second, I’m glad to work for a company that understands the value of having dialogue and discussions with bloggers. Even when we disagree this is continuing in the right direction.
Have a blessed weekend.
I have spoken with a number of people in the Convention about this and other changes made. While there is a number of things I have heard the common reason going around is “people just do not like change”. And while no one seems to be willing to make that charge in public statements, it is being made in private conversations. I find this to be an excuse and reason to shut down criticism of changes made. It is not that change is occurring, it is the nature of it and how it all came about. Of course the next line that comes about in private conversations is ” regardless of how we got hear this is where we are at and we all need to work together.” What needs to happen is we need to be just as careful of how we get somewhere as where we are going. The ends never justifies the means. I do not mind expanding but to pull out of established areas in order to do that is absurd and a mistake.
I believe that this represents a symptom of a much larger issue. That is that there is huge resistance in some SBC circles to expanding out of the “good ole south”. The thought of bringing people into the fold that are not “Southern” in creed or culture scares a lot of people. Further, there is a such a drive to plant “new” churches, and ignoring the need to revitalize old ones. The SBC will plant a new church a mile away from another SBC church that is struggling rather than work on revitalizing the old one. That is just silly, especially in areas in the South where there are already so many SBC churches. I became wise to this problem when I first started becoming baptist in school. I attended Hannibal LaGrange in Hannibal Missouri. The SBC churches in the area are apart of the Bethel Baptist Association. There are just under 30 churches in that association. Then, as I have a friend whose father is a SBC pastor up in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, I looked there. The ENTIRE Twin Cities Metro Baptist Association has 31 churches, with half being ethnic mission churches. And yet it is associations like Bethel in Missouri that get more aid and support from NAMB and the SBC. That, my friends, frankly is sad.
And yet you look and see what God is doing in these places, and you realize ultimately in the end, even if the SBC turns its backs on “new work” areas, God has not.
We feel some of that same discomfort as severe cuts are being made by NAMB here in Iowa.
We keep being promised that those severe cuts will be followed by increases in money for church planting, and hope that those promises come to fruition.
Good critique, Dave. This is exactly the kind of work that bloggers should be doing in regard to the SBC. I know that NAMB is attempting to focus on this type of work through its LoveLoud initiative. Is there any coordination with NAMB to pick up the slack left by pulling the World Changers back from the new work states? If so, perhaps we could tap into that.
Way too much denominational work and state work goes on in the Southern states. If the local churches cannot work together to reach their cities where they are, then we see the fundamental problem at that point and it will not be solved by putting more denominational resources in places like Birmingham for a week. Now, Lifeway, NAMB, and the Alabama convention have a role in mobilizing the local churches there (many of which are struggling, by the way), but we should not be putting resources of manpower/funds in Birmingham or Montgomery for anything other than church planting, in my opinion.
I remember back in the 90’s when funding was pulled for campus ministry in California. Of course, it continued in Southern states. I do not know if CP money goes to campus ministry in California to this day. Also, we put about $100,000 a year into church planting for the San Francisco Bay Area with its 7 million people. Start crunching the numbers on lostness and proportionality and funding there and it is disheartening. We even have a seminary there, so there are many potential church planters ready to go if we could fund them more successfully.
The movement of resources to the new work states continues to be an issue. I am glad for Lifeway’s response here am fine with doing things in different ways. It looks like that is how Lifeway is seeing it. Hopefully, the new approach will be successful.
Dave (and readers):
I am thankful you have been elected to serve Southern Baptists! Thank you for your gracious opposition to LifeWay’s course of action.
I love my wife, my children, my church, and my denomination. Yes, I love LifeWay, too! That does not mean that I always agree with or understand any of those objects of my devotion. As an SBC pastor in Michigan, and a champion for World Changers (our church has sent groups to West Virginia and Vermont, and our children have also gone to Alaska, New York, and Michigan), I am deeply disappointed Michigan is no longer being served. I would join my voice with yours to ask LifeWay to reconsider. How can I help?
I would commend to you and any readers who are interested a ministry that was launched by another Michigan Southern Baptist who desired to bring the World Changers concept to Detroit. From their website (http://golifechangers.homestead.com/index2.html) you can glean a bit of their story. For instance: LifeChangers was created in 1996 by Wayne and Pam Vann. Training at a national training event that introduced WorldChangers inspired them to establish an affordable opportunity for Michigan students to encounter hands-on missions in a week of camp that includes multi-faceted experiences such as work projects, team building, recreation, backyard Bible clubs, and worship.
LifeChangers has established meaningful partnerships with Greater Detroit Baptist Association, Northwest Detroit Neighborhood Development, Spring Arbor University, Hope Baptist Center, several churches and local schools. Their most important partnership, however, is with the local residents of Detroit neighborhoods alongside whom they serve and work.
A few years ago, our state convention began to join with LifeChangers and the neighborhoods they serve with an annual even called Operation One Day. Our church has been thrilled to participate and look forward to next year!
Well, I went longer than I intended. Sorry. Keep up the good work, Dave!
We, too, have been considering doing it on our own.
One of the problems with World Changers has been an increasing commitment to a cookie cutter strategy. We have always done things a little bit differently here and they wanted us to follow the program without variation.
So, working independently or with another group might work well for us.
I would love to see all the independent, World-Changers type ministries unite to form a kind of national chain of ministries who want to focus on ministry outside the Deep South that World Changers is so focused on.
World Changers could then focus on the established SBC areas and an independent group could minister in those areas that World Changers does not.
As someone who grew up in Casper, Wyoming, then served as a youth pastor there from 2003 til the end of 2011 before heading to the mission field, seeing World Changers pull out of Wyoming is incredibly painful. Just as you said, Dave, World Changers has played a big role in raising the appreciation and love for Southern Baptists in the city through their service, and for over a decade have served the people of Casper faithfully. However, just like Lifeway did with Centrifuge camps a few years ago, and just like NAMB is doing now, they say that they care about these cities that they’ve worked in, and they give a good verbal response, but the actions just don’t back up the words. I can’t just say I care about my wife and desire to see her grow well, then leave because there are more timely or less costly opportunities available, and still expect her to trust my words. There are a lot of hurt feelings in Wyoming because there’s a lot of words out there about how there’s a desire for strong, growing, healthy SBC churches in Wyoming, but a lot of actions that seem to show the opposite. And, for the record, while travel costs to Casper may be high, there have not been a lot of years here where we didn’t fill or nearly fill our spots for WC each summer (even hosting TWO weeks of WC once or twice!). I too pray that there will be some further discussions over these issues, but I fear that they’ve already moved on. We will continue to find ways to do ministry without them, and we trust that God is fully capable of reaching the lost without WC or Lifeway, but it sure would be nice to have a few more supportive servants alongside!
I think the best solution may be an independent network focused on the Upper Midwest, Plains, Mountain states, etc, where LifeWay has pulled back.
Sometimes I wish every SBC pastor could serve in “new work” region for a time and then come back to the South. I think this would change a lot of our priorities. When I was appointed years ago as an HMB (now NAMB) missionary to California, I actually had more than a few colleagues offering me condolences, “So you’re going out there to live with the ‘fruits and the nuts’.” It was often quite entertaining to watch their reactions when I told them that my wife was from California. Now that we have moved back to the South, I’m often shocked at how dismissive some leaders in the South can be toward “new work” regions. While the main stream leaders generally do not endorse these sentiments, the sentiments still exist and to some degree are tolerated. My experience is that one can still be a regional bigot in the South and get a pass. At one youth event my son attended, the speaker, who happened to be a popular youth evangelist, made several disparaging comments about California. When I confronted him about it, he looked at me with intense seriousness and said, “It’s not California I have a problem with, it’s Californians.” No one around here seems to be marginalizing this guy.
Dave, I don’t really know how this works but it seems that you may be trying to wag the dog by the tail here. Lifeway has to work with the churches. The churches supply the people for the projects. If the churches are supplying an over-abundance of workers for projects in the South and are under-supplying workers for projects in Iowa and Michigan, then it seems to me that Lifeway has no choice but to adjust to the supply chain. Perhaps a direct appeal to churches would be more effective in the long run. Am I wrong?
We’ve not had problems filling our site. Nor has Casper, Wyoming.
The decisions here were not made on the basis of an inability to get people to come here.
We don’t really know why our project was cancelled, but it was not because we couldn’t fill our quota, nor because the folks who came here didn’t have a wonderful ministry.
We were told that one reason was the costs and travel difficulty of bringing summer staff here, but we don’t know all the reasons.
We were told that they thought they could have more effective ministry elsewhere. Perhaps that is so, I don’t know.
Still, with limited staff and budget, they may have to adjust to an overabundance of churches wanting projects closer to home. I’m really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here because I can’t think of any other reason why they would be adding so many projects in the South. (Just read more of the comments; this is a very sad trend).
I do not think there was ill-will, John, or an indifference to the needs in non-SBC areas. There was a decision made based on the financial aspects of the ministry and based on the prioritization of big cities over smaller areas that led to these decisions.
I do not think there was evil intent, but we feel that the effects here were not great.
“””big cities over smaller areas””””
Big city ministry is a myth. It’s always about neighborhoods.
“LifeWay argues that West Virginia is a new work state and should not be considered as part of the established SBC or old line states. I am continuing to consider them as a Southern state in both years’ statistics – they are, after all, south of the Mason-Dixon line. ”
So is Maryland and DC; neither of which are Southern.
It is my understanding that Maryland is not considered a new work state.
I was looking at a map on the NAMB website. WV is in the Mid-West Region, and Maryland is in the North-East region. Interestingly, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands are also in the North-East region.
Sorry, I’m crossing Lifeway and NAMB in my mind.
Thanks for the post and response Dave and Lifeway.
Lifeway has the right to run its operation the way it chooses. The rub comes for us in the “new work” states when the project was approved, advertised and groups were signed up and then they pulled the plug. Without consult or a search for another alternative. Had they said in 2014 we are going this way, it would not have been so hard to swallow. Here we have done preliminary planning and now have nothing.
The fact is in one case they have kept one of the far out project but will have to do it without a summer staff. That option was not given to anyone else that I am aware of. It might have solved a number of problems and allowed their program to expand.
“””Without consult or a search for another alternative.”””
This seems to be a common element in how the denomination runs these days.
I want to first compliment Dave and Lifeway in how this is being handled. This is how blogging should work.
I would say that although I don’t agree with everything Lifeway does either, some of those commenting seem to not even acknowledge that Lifeway says it is NOT moving out of northern states and into the south and the numbers are convincing. And I appreciate there ofer to help cities that want to do their own thing.
Lee, we acknowledge that they SAY they’re not moving out, but the facts seem to show a very different reality. And, it’s hard to be excited about the help they offer. When Lifeway pulled the plug on Centrifuge in Wyoming a few years back, they made very lofty offers of help. However, when the time came for that help to materialize, it never showed up… so, we did it on our own, without them in any way. I appreciate their words, but when the actions behind them are different, we tend to trust the actions more than the empty promises.
Dave,
thank you for your blog. I enjoy it, and it helps keep me informed! The World Changers topic caught my attention because I have three girls that have been a part of World Changers ministries for years. They went to Nikiski, Alaska this summer. My church is active with missions which was a big draw for us when we were looking for a new church home several years ago. As part of their commitment to missions, They established a ministry of their own, in partnership with other local churches, to host our own style of World Changers, titled Impact Yadkin.
The first one was in the summer of 2011, and we will be hosting Impact Yadkin 2013 this coming June. I would greatly encourage other churches to consider doing this kind of ministry. It IS a lot of work, but as I’m sure you know, very rewarding and very worth the impact that it has on the community. It is service and love at it’s greatest. You can read more about us here https://www.facebook.com/MagnifyMinistries.
I have to agree with you, that the changes in the World Changers locations don’t really make a lot of sense to me. . . . .That being said, I love my denomination and what they stand for. I was excited by our last convention and changes being made.
As we have considered working independently, our biggest concern has been finding teams to come.
I think it is time for an independent network if ministries to come together and form a national ministry to do world changers style ministry outside the south.
Does such a network now exist?
As we have considered working independently, our biggest concern has been finding teams to come.
I think it is time for an independent network if ministries to come together and form a national ministry to do world changers style ministry outside the south.
Does such a network now exist?
Did you have to ask that thrice?
You could connect with a few of the other youth ministry camp groups that do mission camps, but now that Student Life is part of Lifeway as well, that puts Lifeway in charge of M-fuge, StudentLife Mission Camps, World Changers, and PowerPlant. I’m not sure who is left that does domestic mission groups, but I live in a pretty tight SB Bubble, so there may be something.
That’s weird. I have no idea why that posted 3 times.
As we have considered working independently, our biggest concern has been finding teams to come.
I think it is time for an independent network if ministries to come together and form a national ministry to do world changers style ministry outside the south.
Does such a network now exist?
Hmmm, Dave cites figures showing that LW cuts such events by a total of nine in one geographic grouping, concluding that they are “leaving behind” and “focusing on” certain areas. Others quickly move to a more harsh treatment of LW for the change.
LW sensibly and commendably offers a quick response that (a) there is no conscious motive to concentrate events in legacy states, (b) other similar events are heavily located outside such states, (c) some of the non-repeating sites are due to those places not wanting a return event or not having shown a viable number of participants in the past.
It is tough for me to see anything amiss in LW’s decision here although I can easily see how Dave can be disappointed.
“But, I can tell you that while we’ve dropped 13 cities in new work states next year (including yours, unfortunately), we’ve also dropped a 12 cities in old line states. And, even though we’re adding 11 weeks of World Changers in 4 old line states next year, we’re also adding 21 weeks in 8 new work states.” Marty King
Marty, Can you share with us based on listing Dave has linked above, where the addition of 21 weeks in 8 states of World Changers is coming from?
Are you trying to include the Power Plant projects in the mix?
I believe the thurst of Dave’s article addresses World Changers and from what I see, he does not comment on Power Plant. You refer to apples and oranges, I believe it is you that has tried to compare the two if this is indeed what you are doing with the numbers.
World Changers and Power Plant are two vastly different types of projects. Dave does not make any comments about Power Plant. I am not sure what is happening with that. But what Dave does say related to World Changers is correct as I look at the city listings. The only way you get your numbers is if you join the two programs.
I think the Power Plant idea is a great idea. I am not sure of the statistics as to effectiveness over the years but, I like the premise of what it stands for as far as assisting with a new church plant while teaching young people some of the skills of church planting.
World Changers however is different. It focuses on the community. Through meeting the needs in the community, it opens up doors to ministry and evangelism that otherwise might be shut.
In this new work state area, community is probably the most important thing overall. If you are not a part and do not care for the community, you will not get very far. In this area the work of the World Changer Participants have moved the visibility of SB’s light years ahead of where they were previously. In this area, we were seen as a group that was fighting all the time in our Annual Meetings, a “cult” or “holy rollers”, through our involvement in the community through the WC projects we have had, we are no longer seen as a cult (mostly) but instead a church that cares about its community. That gives creedence and opens up the people willingness to consider the claims we make.
You also make reference to some that were not done because of lack of numbers and others where they decided not to do the project again. While that is legitimate in comparing 2012 to 2013, it is not when you compare what was on the schedule for 2013 before it was changes last week. These projects that were droped were on the schedule, had been approved and desired to have a project. What do the numbers look like when you compare 2013 early version to 2013 the new version?
That was a point of disagreement we had. It is true that Power Plant is focused outside the South and he wanted that factored into statistics. We’ve never done Power Plant and have been involved only with World Changers – a completely different type of ministry.
Both may be overseen by the same department at LifeWay, but they are different enough that we would see them separately.
But certainly, the statistics look much better if PowerPlant is included, and Marty did that in his statistical analysis.
That accounts for much of the difference between his numbers and mine.
I’m going to limit my comments here to the only minor issue I feel qualified to comment on, having spent almost half of my life in West Virginia. WV may be ‘mostly’ south of the Mason-Dixon line (the northern panhandle is definitely north of it), but I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that WV must be an old-line state. For one thing, during the “War between the states” (I’ve learned enough to use Southern terminology), WV was a Union state. Well, to be more exact, WV became a Union state. Seems that up to that time, it was merely the western part of the state of Virginia, although I believe that there was some complaints about how well represented it was (it not helping that the Appalachians separated them from the rest of the state of Virginia). Well, the folks in WV took advantage of said ‘unpleasantness’ to break off from Virginia, became a separate state, and ‘officially’ joined the Union. Attitudes among the people of the state were more mixed. It wasn’t unusual to find that two WV siblings would end up fighting on opposite sides of the conflict. One notable example is that of Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson (yes, *that* Stonewall Jackson) fighting for the Confederacy while his sister opened her Berkeley, WV house up to Union troops as a hospital.
Now, I lived in the northern part of the state (not too far south of the M-D line, as a matter of fact(and about 20 miles from the WVU Mountaineers)), so my experience may not (or may) apply to the southern regions around Charleston), but I don’t remember the community feeling particularly “Southern”. Of much more influence was the Italian heritage of many of the people in the area (20 miles away, in Clarksburg, there is an annual “Italian Heritage Festival” which draws a lot of attention (I remember it well, having had my car side-swiped by an (apparently) drunk participant one year (who drove off as though he hadn’t even noticed the collision))).
I spent most of my life in WV as a Christian (we moved to WV in 1968, I got saved in 1975, and I moved to Metro Atlanta in 1992), and while at that time I hung around mostly with Pentecostals and Charismatics, I knew some Baptists (some of whom went to the Charismatic fellowship I belonged to), and I had enough contact with other Christians that I think that if the SBC was fairly well known, I should have heard *something* about it. I didn’t really become aware that the SBC existed until I moved to Metro Atlanta and joined an SBC church.
Now, that’s just one person’s experience, and a rather subjective one at that. With what I know, I can’t say with certainty that WV is not an old-ine state. What I believe I can say with certainty is that assuming that WV is an old-line state merely because it is (mostly) south of the Mason-Dixon is unwarranted. Marty may very well be correct in seeing WV as a “new work” state.