I’ve avoided giving my two cents about the Houston Chronicle article and its ensuing effects on our convention because I had nothing new to add to the conversation. Our leaders, and entities, the bylaws working group notwithstanding, have responded well. I have something to add to the conversation, something not being discussed.
I’d like to begin with this question: are we setting our young ministers up for failure by giving them youth ministry positions?
When I served in my first full-time position, the church went through three youth ministers in my four years. I was on staff during the majority of the last two youth ministers. One of the men met with the youth and said, “I’m not here to be your friend, I’m here to teach you God’s word.” That man is now a pastor, but he was criticized by some as being not cool enough to be a youth minister. He was the right kind of youth minister.
The second youth minister was cool. He was cool and he talked about Jesus. He was so cool he would stay out with the youth until two or three in the morning while his wife and kids were at home. That man is now divorced and out of the ministry. He had no business being a youth minister.
All too often, we take a man in his late teens or early twenties who has charisma, “call”, and conviction, and give him authority over our most vulnerable members. In the Houston Chronicle article, several of the named churches had problems with their youth ministers. That should not surprise us. When I think back to my early twenties, I’m glad I was a music minister. I had very limited authority and I was involved in more of the overall ministry of the church. If I had been a youth minister in my early twenties, I may not have fared much better than the second youth minister mentioned above. How many of us can be honest and say the same? How many of us will admit that we had no business having authority over vulnerable teenage boys and girls when we were barely out of the teenage years ourselves?
How many young ministers have been forced to resign due to moral failures because we’ve put them in ministry positions where the temptations would derail even the best and brightest among us? Serious discussion of curbing the sexual abuse crisis in our churches should involve an examination of youth minister hiring practices. There’s been talk of educating our pulpit search committees, and that education should extend to other search committees. Here are a few suggestions:
- Make the hiring process for hiring any staff member as rigorous and thorough as the pastor search process. When the staff member is considered an “under staff” position–yes I have heard that term used before–that communicates to the search committee that their job is less important than the senior pastor search committee. If these ministers are interacting with our teenagers and children more than the senior pastor, they are just as important as the senior pastor, and their hiring process should be treated with the same seriousness.
- We need more senior pastors paying attention when we hire twenty year-old men for these positions. There needs to be more mentoring, accountability, and teaching between the senior pastor and other staff members. If the prospective staff member will not submit to accountability from the senior pastor, he should not be hired. That should be a non-negotiable job requirement.
- We need to make all ages an integral part of the church family. Evil hides in darkness, especially the darkness of a group of vulnerable teenagers who are shunted off to a separate building or area to “do youth group”. It’s more difficult for a predator to isolate the vulnerable when they are always involved in a loving, caring church family.
- Candidates for all staff positions should be asked if they’ve viewed pornography. I’m not sure if viewing pornography is grounds for disqualification, some would give a resounding yes, but some statistics tell that if all pastors who have had a pron problem were fired tomorrow, over one-third of our churches would have vacant pulpits next Sunday. I will, however, say that no one with a history of pornography addiction should be allowed authority and constant access to teenagers. I’ll go so far as to suggest that all staff members should submit to random computer and cell phone audits. I heard a story about a church that was having trouble with a minister who kept giving rides to underage girls with no one else in the car. He would not heed the pastor’s advice, and the pastor told him his computer and phone were going to be checked. The young man blew up at this invasion of privacy and resigned on the spot. I wonder if he was hiding something?
I’ve known some godly youth ministers who were called of God and effective in their ministries, but if we’re going to be proactive about the sexual abuse crisis (Yes, it is a crisis whether there was one case, or one million cases) then we must do a better job of hiring non senior pastor staff members.
Thank you for encouraging me to post this here. Interesting article which cautions against hiring young pastors to work with youth but overlooks impt. issues of ppl who molest teens/children. Many are molesters w/ profound paraphilia disorders. They don’t molest because they are young. They molest because they are molesters.
Dee, thanks for this insight. Readers, Dee replied to our article on twitter and I told her if she commented we would make sure it appeared at the top of the comments. We all still have a lot to learn from people who have been thinking through these issues for years. I appreciate her interaction.
Limiting what young people can do (assuming late teens into mid 20s) could have unintended consequences. That would eliminate those people from entering professions in which they would have access to people of the same age or younger than they are. I imagine this is due to the assumption that young people can’t control themselves around other young people…All of the following professions will bring people into close contact with one another. This would affect those entering the professions of law enforcement, firefighting, EMTs teaching, nurses and other health professionals, national park rangers, military, etc. By saying young people are… Read more »
I was a young youth pastor many (MANY) moons ago, and there were quite a few vulnerable young ladies in my youth group. I could pass a lie detector when I say that the kind of predatory junk that I read about in the HC from those abusers never even popped into my mind in weak moments. I wasn’t trained and no one ever gave me guidelines (I wish they had, I suppose, but it was 35 years ago). I just knew I was there to minister to these kids and not to use them. I do not think age… Read more »
Tony,
All good points. But why not take it further? Since child molesters are overwhelmingly male (in something like 90% of the cases), why not advocate for placing only women in positions over children, such as youth leaders, nursery, Sunday school teachers, and Awana? Excluding men from these positions would be something we could do that is undeniably effective at lowering the chances of being abused by these specific leaders by 90%. Let men find something else to do. (I mentioned this in another discussion, but I think it was over before I posted).
Is this a serious comment?
Yes.
OK.
Dave, would you disagree that this would drastically reduce such abuses?
I disagree with your logic. You’re point may be valid – but your way of getting there is not. It may reduce abuse is taken place in church… But I doubt it will reduce it over all… sadly, Molesters will find places to molest. Yes. There are drawbacks to letting sinners do ministry but There are a myriad of benefits that young people would be deprived of if they were not allowed to be biblically ministered to by men…just as a ban on women biblically doing ministry would deprive children as well. Think about this…. Every year people die from… Read more »
I understand your discomfort with the idea. But you’re not squarely facing the point. If 90% of all car accidents involved Fords, you would consider banning them. Molestation and abuse in our churches is what we’re considering here. What you’re concluding is that a 90% reduction is not worth the price of what would be lost in the form of good ministry by men.
No, I would not consider banning Ford’s as the vast majority of Fords are driven by people without anyone dying as a result.
Just as the vast majority of men who minister to children do so without molesting them.
My discomfort with the idea stems from the fact that it is a really bad idea.
Dave, you still haven’t told us how you account for the fact that 90% of molesters are men. Do you see this as some sort of coincidence?
Ken, reasons to reject this idea, though I am glad you brought it up, since outside-the-box solutions should at least be considered, and can’t be if no one puts them forward…but this one is not the answer: 1. You said this was “something we could do.” It simply isn’t something we can do. With 45,000 autonomous churches, limiting ALL workers who have contact with kids to women only isn’t something “we” (the abc) can do. Even if the EC made a push for it, such a push would result in MOST churches either disregarding it, or if push care to… Read more »
Thanks, Andy, for giving a serious answer to a serious question, and for choosing reason over ridicule.
I totally disagree since the mission of a church isn’t to prevent abuse but to make disciples. Consequently, the church is to deploy every gift it has in that task as God has so ordered. If anything needs to be changed it needs to be the segregating of the church by age and in worship and teaching.
If we cannot make disciples without making victims of abuse, then we are making disciples wrongly.
I served as a youth pastor before I became a Senior Pastor and I quickly saw the dangers of putting a young man over teenagers. One can quickly manipulate emotions and abuse his position. But in everything my wife was involved and the pastor of the church was also involved. In hindsight I wish I could have served as an associate pastor or an intern in a larger church and been able to learn from a Senior Pastor or have been able to be involved in all aspects of ministry and not just teenagers. I think this would have better… Read more »
Tony, good post.
Some of the best youth directors are parents, and / or middle age.
Churches should do more to integrate their youth into all worship, activities, services, and ministries of the church. Also, integrate them with all ages in the church.
Otherwise they graduate High School and look at the church as no longer having anything to offer them.
David R. Brumbelow
Correct DRB. I have said this exact thing for yrs. why do we need youth ministry? Kids have the ability to be involved in regular Sunday Schools w Adults. Same w Worship, they can sing, pray, read the scriptures for themselves. I attended a church that had 5 Sunday School classes for everyone over 4th? Grade. Youth worshipped w their family which gave them even more to talk about after service. Parents decided which class that they were going to attend. Some classed were in the Gospels, new members, Doctrine of the Church, an OT Class, Doctrine of God, etc… Read more »
I served as a youth pastor for 9 years, starting at the ripe old married age of 27. I was blessed to have the help and presence of my wife and other adults in the church. It is mind-boggling that the lack of safe-guards that some do not put in place. My most intentional example is that I regularly asked an adult or parent to stay with me until the last teenage girl was picked up from some event, so we wouldn’t be left alone hanging out In the church parking lot at night. No one thought it was odd… Read more »
Andy, I think the safeguards you put in place were very wise. Other youth pastors and churches would do well to establish similar safeguards. In fact, not just youth pastors, but men in general would do well to adopt the type of safeguards you lived by. I followed similar guidelines during my short time leading a youth group together with my wife as volunteers in between youth pastors. But I’ve also followed basically the same guidelines in many other settings. God bless you!
Thank you for encouraging me to post this here. Interesting article which cautions against hiring young pastors to work with youth but overlooks impt. issues of ppl who molest teens/children. Many are molesters w/ profound paraphilia disorders. They don’t molest because they are young. They molest because they are molesters.
Agreed.
“They don’t molest because they are young. They molest because they are molesters.”
I’d only ask to slightly rephrase: They don’t molest because they are men or because they are young they molest because they are molestors.
Lately, we as Southern Baptist’s have had to open our eyes and face some hard truths with honesty.and objectivity. I think it’s time we also face the fact that sexual attraction and the drive to attain sexual satisfaction are fueled by testosterone; and, that men have 20 times more of it than women. That’s simply how God created us. Whatever else may be argued, we cannot afford to treat the issue of sexual abuse as if there were no difference between the two.
Dave C: This isn’t a male bashing ordeal. It is not my fault that most molesters are male. Female molesters are about 9%. So that would mean 91% are male.
https://childluresprevention.com/resources/molester-profile/
Women abuse children too….there are many forms of abuse in addition to sexual abuse and some of them show a pretty high number of women being the perps… #justsayin’ The discussion regarding ways to reduce sexual abuse within the church context is important and necessary – but please – lets not get distracted with wild haired and ridiculous suggestions like banning men from ministry to children. Geez. I should not have engaged with Ken’s comments earlier and I will fix that error immediately – I will no longer engage with him or you on this line of discussion. Tony has… Read more »
What is the title of this discussion Dave C? Just asking. Your ignoring me or Ken is not going to make it go away, but I have no objection to you ignoring me. None.
Debbie, it’s interesting that we are both victims of childhood sexual abuse, and we are being ignored. I only wanted to have a reasonable discussion. Some truths are too hard to face.
Agreed Ken. Thank you.
When it comes to youth, who range in age from 12 to 18, it depends on the age as to whether we are talking about pedophilia or abuse of a young man or woman who is a minor. A child is not sexually attractive to a normal man; but a physically mature 17-year old female is.
That’s a good point, Ken. Which is why “normal men” need to be on guard and take wise precautions in such settings. The Billy Graham rule is one way to be on guard.
Mark: Once again, no it isn’t. No it isn’t. That is not the problem.
Trying to understand where you are coming from Debbie… You are ok with people of the opposite sex meeting alone, counseling, traveling together, sharing meals, developing deep relationships?
Mike: Jason Rogers answered my main objection. These are child molesters, rapists, abusers we are talking about here. Where there is a will, there is a way. Why do you go into the “developing deep relationships?” My objections to the Billly Graham rule would make a post in and of itself. Women are not seductresses that you need protection from and if a man cannot be in the same room as a woman, control himself, something is wrong with the male not the woman. Secular jobs cannot practice the Billy Graham rule, and Christian men and women have secular jobs.… Read more »
And when other Christians in power cover for predators, abusers, why would the Billy Graham rule mean anything to them.
Thanks for your response Debbie. I would be very interested to read a post on your objections.
You seem very much against “the billy graham rule”. Why? It seems to be discourage men who want to put habits in place to guard themselves against sin. Now, I agree that talking about the billy graham rule and promoting it is NOT going to dissuade a determined predator, as he/she will simply ignore it. BUT… a) I cannot a big problem for a pastor or youth pastor seeking to follow this rule IF he is doing it to guard himself against temptation and/or accusation. In todays world, I would call that wisdom. And certainly you would not want your… Read more »
“They don’t molest because they are young. They molest because they are molesters.”
Please hear!
Debbie: I hear you. I have been reading the comments. The Billy Graham rule is great in dealing when adults are working with other adults. We are discussing adults and children. The average age of a victim is 13 when first victimised, usually by a parent or trusted authority figure. An experienced molester will “groom” the child in thinking it is okay. The molester will tell the target what it wants to hear. Will play the friend, confidant. The molester gets the child to trust more. These molesters are taking advantage of children. Once again we are not talking about… Read more »
Yep, although I also have problems with the Billy Graham rule with adults too.
Good post, Tony. Good thoughts here for churches to consider.
I’ve commented about this specific situation before, but I’d like to draw a couple of helpful observations out of it. In Indonesia from about 1971 until he was fired around 1995 there was a male, married missionary with two sons who was a serial child molester. He was located in Bandung where the Lembaga Literatur Baptis publishing house was and he worked on staff there as well as other activities in addition to songwriting (including a Baptist Hymnal hymn) and books targeted to children. The language “school” for new missionaries was also located there and this was a significant source… Read more »
Well said, but I’m not sure what a “pron problem” is.
🙂
Might be just misspelled, but online chats sometimes censor the word porn and a substitute is often “pron” to get around the filter. At this point it’s a bit of a worn meme in fact.
I can confirm what Greg wrote about the missionary in Indonesia. He abused lots of kids. Some of them sued the IMB. As part of the court settlement, all IMB missionaries now must complete a child abuse prevention course.
If there is adequate supervision and accountability, and those responsibilities are taken seriously, a lot of problems can be avoided. My first experience as a youth pastor happened when I was 22, just out of college and teaching full time. The church was pastorless, but their interim pretty much laid the law down when it came to things like socializing with the kids, taking them home alone whether in my car or a church vehicle, having an adult female chaperone present. It seemed restrictive and inconvenient at first but the accountability was high. But it was a good lesson in… Read more »
SBC youth pastor here. A lot of of prevention has to do with safeguards, which are extremely important, but also with choosing someone with adequate training. I specifically pursued a youth ministry degree. I had these safeguard concepts drilled into me by my professors. When I landed my first full-time youth ministry position, I put these safeguards into place and was supported by my pastor in doing so. In other words, choose someone to work with the youth that is qualified, not just someone who is willing to sacrifice the time needed. If a church can’t afford someone who is… Read more »
Good points, Jonathan.
When a youth minister is poorly trained and perhaps poorly supervised and he has a sexual relationship with an under age girl it’s both a crime and a sin. We should be putting safeguards and protections in place to help prevent that from happening. A significant part of the sex abuse problem in the church comes from serial abusers and this is a different problem altogether. These people are adept at gaining trust and access. They will use confession and some transparency to put your minds at ease as they groom children and families, sometimes for years before the abuse… Read more »
Tony The thing I like most about your post is that it focusses on what’s happening at the church level. I especially like what you say about integrating everyone into the broader life of the church. I personally believe that this would bestt be achieved by changing our structural approach to ministry which seems to build a machine rather than the body. It seems that the flow of authority within these ministry structures too often silences the discernment of workers who are Spiritually aware. It seems to me that any solutions to this and other problems must involve the fundamental… Read more »
Yes!
Just curious. Has anyone with research skills studied the SBC-specific sexual abuse/assault cases to develop profiles that might be useful in addressing the problem? In other words, do we really know what percentage of cases involve young youth ministers? It might be useful to group cases by who the perps are (pastor, youth minister, deacon, SS leader, etc.), what size churches have the most cases with number of staff members, where the incidents took place, relationship of victim to the accused, seminary trained accused vs. non-seminary trained, accusation percentages by seminary of seminary-trained accused, etc. I know that these incidents… Read more »
Good things to think about. Unfortunately there is not a certain profile of an abuser, at least in regard to age or position. They will find a way.
I was abused by my music minister. He was 32. He had tons of access to youth, and authority and respect because he was a pastor. Yes, he found ways to isolate and seclude me, but he also did stuff in plain sight. He always found a way.
Dee is right. They usually molest because they are molesters.
ARGH! Eliza. I am so sorry that happened to you. My heart aches for you. What do you think could have been done to shut him down? Is there anything we could teach the youth?
Rev. the organization I volunteer with, we also do training to recognize potential problems and to the teach. When you get a change please visit https://www.endslaverytn.org/student-resources/ While this is our Middle Tennessee area, the resources could also be applied around the country. There is no such thing as a “typical predator”. Predators are from all walks of life, from blue collar workers to high end professionals (lawyers, judges, doctors, pastors). Churches are a target for predators as we want to think “this person is here for the right reason”. Predators are going to target where they are heavily monitored. I… Read more »
Thank you so much for responding. I was hoping Eliza could give us some pointers about what we could do to head off some of this on the front end. I know many youth may be afraid to speak out. I will look at the link. We all need to do all we can to prevent this from happening. You are correct. There is no “typical predator.” Thank you for your response so much.
One thing is to be on the lookout. If something seems wrong, call the appropriate people. Let people whose job is to investigate do it
That should have been. Predators are going to target where they are not heavily monitored.
That is so true.
Thank you. It’s a hard one for sure. I would say, for one, make it safe to talk about issues that people are often uncomfortable talking about. Educate yourself (go read a bunch of survivor stories – it will break you, but you’ll learn what to look for). Talk about abuse from the pulpit, around the dinner table, etc. Talk about power dynamics and how sexual assault is not the victim’s fault. Talk about grooming and what that can look like. Let survivors tell their stories. Listen. Show compassion. These things could make it safe for someone to recognize if… Read more »