I have to admit that I am shocked. I did not see a gracious way for that to happen. But in conference with Willy Rice, Dr. Carson has decided not to appear at the SBC Pastors’ Conference.
You can read Willy Rice’s article announcing the withdrawal here. (http://www.calvary.us/pages/page.asp?page_id=296405&articleId=48662)
I want to say two things.
1. This is probably the best possible outcome. Presidential candidates at Pastors Conferences is not a good idea.
2. I feel bad for Willy Rice. He is a good man who is in a position where he simply CANNOT please everyone.
I mean, look at this site. With our relatively small audience, I never publish anything that doesn’t bring my motives, Christianity, wisdom, ethics or sanity into question. That’s just on a blogging community.
Selecting 12 speakers for a PC at the SBC? You are doomed!
I appreciate the work Pastor Rice does and I sympathize with him for the position he has been in, even though he I strongly disagreed with the decision to invite Carson.
Let’s pray that this PC will be a great blessing.
So who carried the most weight in getting us this positive outcome? Was it Bart and SBC Voices or the whippersnapper at Baptist 21? Perhaps they are an unstoppable 1-2 punch of common sense. Bart Barber for PC President, supported by B21 and funded by some Texas oilman with a few extra bucks?
As much as I love Voices, it was B21, which provides the forum for Mohler and Akin to address the SBC each year on the state of the SBC over lunch. Once B21 wrote about it, many from the Southern and SEBTS communities joined in. So, with B21 writing about it and others like Denny Burk speaking to it, you had an assumption that the establishment was now against it. That might not be true. It might be that Jonathan Akin all by himself had the thought yesterday morning for a blog topic. But, the perception would be that this… Read more »
I agree with Alan Cross. B21 has the ear of the Emperor.
And would he answer with, “You can call me Al”?
Just don’t call him late for supper.
I hope you are wrong Alan. I really do. If those men have opinions they should just state them.
I don’t doubt you, Alan. I just hope you are wrong.
Agreed, Dave.
I have no idea if that is right or not, Dave. Just stating why B21 might have created movement on this more than Voices did. It is all about connections or the perception of connection. This might have been all about perception and nothing more. Or maybe it was just the merit of Jonathan Akin’s post. I have no idea.
I have to say that I did not share the Voices post on my Facebook page for a couple of reasons. 1) I was embarrassed that Carson had been asked to speak at the SBC PC. I didn’t want people to know about it. 2) While I agreed with Bart’s point, there were certainly some things he said that I disagreed with. I did share the B21 post yesterday. The initial embarrassment had likely worn off. And the B21 post articulated my reasons for being opposed better than Bart’s article (not intended to be a slight against Bart). I felt… Read more »
That makes sense, Adam, and is likely the case. Like I said, I was not in favor of him speaking either. Just thinking about how people are influenced and who does the influencing.
I have no idea.
Dave Miller,
“I never publish anything that doesn’t bring my motives, Christianity, wisdom, ethics or sanity”
For the record – I have never questioned your personal ethics or your Christianity!
😉
I only question your suppory of the NY Yankees. Only good thing is you are not a SF Giants fan.
I might limit all speakers to fans of the Dodgers. It would make for a real different lineup at the PC.
I’ll shoot you my email. Go Blue!
Did you all know that Woodrow Wilson on the campaign trail for the presidency of the USA was invited to speak at the FBC of Dallas, Texas, compliments of George W. Truett, and he did not turn it down. O, and he won the presidency (I think it was during his run for his first term). So why should anyone be embarrassed about Carson’s being invited to speak at the SBC Pastors Conference?
Did you enjoy Woody’s speech?
The comment above was meant as a joke but if came off jerky, I apologize. That was not my intent. I still must learn to leave my smart alec ways behind me.
I saw your apology after I wrote. That is the trouble with instantaneous communications. No chance for reflection and restatement in more socially acceptable terms. The Press, then the newspaper, then radio, then tv, now the internet. It is almost more than a quick wit can bear.
Of course not. He was managed by Col. House, the representative of the conspiracy. Tsk! Such poor Ironies as we have to endure in these days.
Oh, wow.
President Jimmie Carter spoke to the SBC….now that was a proud moment 🙂
Baptist Press has a piece on it in which they name B21 and Barber. Bart is noted as a former 1st VP (guess 2nd VPs don’t count as much). B21’s articles aren’t usually signed. It makes me curious why David Roach (for BP) didn’t ask who authored the B21 piece. Folks should affix their name to stuff…IMO.
I agree..own it!!
Me three, small gripe of mine too.
Even BP21 and Baptist Press get caught, too.
How much are speakers being paid to speak at Pastor’s Conferences? At SBC meeting? Does anyone know?
Volfan
My information may be old, change happens. However to my knowledge they are not paid to speak, at least in the old days. Perhaps William T has more up to date info on this. What can you add William T.
Why? You hoping to fill the newly opened slot in this year’s lineup? 😉
Very good, current information today from the SBC Finance office. At the annual SBC meeting, people are not paid to preach. At the Pastor’s Conference, they are. Of course, a speaker can decline the honoraria. Speaking fees vary, as do musician fees. Some of them sign booking contracts. This is the current practice, as I understand it. For the actual amounts, of course, one would have to ask the Pastor’s Conference officers.
How much do they pay, Rick?
Ballpark?
David, I’m not being evasive. That knowledge is private to the Pastor’s Conference officers. But I understand it is different for different speakers. Everyone does not get the same amount, so even if we had the budget in front of us, there might not really be a “ballpark” that would apply to everyone. Specifically, the illustration that Mike Huckabee’s fees are in the $25,000 range was mentioned. That’s public knowledge. You can look it up under the Premiere Speakers Bureau. He spoke in 2009 and 2013. Perhaps he was paid his normal fee. Perhaps not. I would think that a… Read more »
Rick, I would certainly hope that we would not be paying anyone those kind of fee’s. Good gracious….all those years I was throwing money in the offering plate at the PC, and barely paying my bills, and the men were being paid like that. I thought the need was to pay for renting the building.
David
Volfan I am not sure what the time frame of “all those years might be”. However I agree, this is problematic for me. I attended every PC and SBC from 67-93. When I came to Montana not so much…to far and snaky and too expensive on NAMB travel allowance. I cover 13 counties in my Association. That uses up travel real fast. I do not remember “celebrity” speakers. I do recall in the very early 70’s one PC president said that they did not pay the speakers. I don’t know if that was the normal practice or if it was… Read more »
No, not as to when it started, but we definitely pay at least some of them now, because booking contracts are a major factor in the difference between a PC that is $200k and one that is $350k.
I looked at the lineup of the PC in Baptist Press. The lions share are pastors from our SBC. Please tell me they are not getting anything more than a small thank you gift, if that.
Twenty years ago we had Richard Jackson speak at our Assoc Pastors and wives retreat. He was here two days. We told him up front that we had no money for him. He paid his way to Montana, we provided the motel and gave him set of golf balls. These are the men I knew. I hope things have not changed that much.
I made this comment in response to Bart’s post, but I see the conversation has moved, so I’ll put it here: The Pastors Conference is an independent conference. It is NOT a meeting of the SBC. Its officers are not SBC leaders. The PC turned into a closely-associated meeting during the CR, but it has always been an independent meeting organized by a group of pastors. It was the 9Mark@9 of the Patterson era. Unless something has change recently, it’s not authorized by the SBC, the Executive Committee, or any of the SBC agencies. It’s funded solely by the pastors… Read more »
Jon, While your distinction is technically a very important one, I believe it is one that is lost in terms of public perception, and will continue to be lost as long as the name of the event is 2015 SBC Pastor’s Conference. That SOUNDS like a Southern Baptist event. Those attending are largely Southern Baptists—except of course, for many of the speakers and musicians. 🙂 Since it is held in conjunction with the annual meeting, I believe people will always connect the conference with Southern Baptists. In the Conservative Resurgence, it played a major role in rallying the troops. Thus,… Read more »
During the CR and before the President of the PC was usually a candidate for Pres of the convention. If memory serves me several years running the Pres. of the PC was elected Pres. of the convention.
That is an interesting point Jon. The SBC then has some explaining to do. I would think that if the SBC proper has no control whatsoever, a group of well meaning Pastors fronting the conference could be problematic and, without a doubt, could bring in whomever they felt should speak to that group. I would rather see the SBC sanction the event, or protect the SBC event from groups organizing without any oversight. Its amazing this has not blown up many times before…. But, for newbies in the convention, this type of activity could be very confusing. Clarity is a… Read more »
This thread is accurate and I do not disagree with many of the comments. However, it is sad for old codgers like me because historically the PC was the highlight of the convention. We had a fantastic line up of preachers and it was a real blessing. There was a time when R.G. Lee closed the conference each year preaching on the Second Coming. I still get blessed when I think of those days.
And D.L., that is truly the way it should be. Pastors being encouraged by the Word of God. When did politics, or other agendas become more important than preaching the Word of God? I like the old saying… Keep the main thing, the main thing. Us old guys need encouragement 🙂
Ain’t it the truth 🙂
I agree. I didn’t hear Lee. I did hear Criswell. And it was a blessing.
But, if some SBCers are going to disagree about what makes for a good conference these days, I’d rather there were two sermons, and not a bigger committee. 🙂
Rick, therein lies of the problem. The PC likes being thought of as the SBC. As DL says below, he liked to hear RG Lee..and Adrian Rogers…and Charles Stanley, etc. And given its role in history, the CR generation of SBC leaders hasn’t been quick to separate. But it’s largely MegachurchPC@SBC. I’d rather there not be an official SBC conference, for just this reason. If you don’t like the popular style of preaching and engagement in the SBC, start your own conference. I’d rather have two preachers to choose from, than the one preacher acceptable to the average Baptist. An… Read more »
jon
Re. Megachurch PC….I have mixed feelings about this. I understand the need for inclusion. In a lot of ways that is axiomatic. However in a venue like the PC in all honesty I want to hear someone who is a better preacher that I am. The key is to find excellent preachers in smaller churches.
You probably shouldn’t be making accusations against SEBTS unless you can back up those accusations with facts. B21 does not publicly = SEBTS. Perhaps that is true behind the scenes, but you need to produce facts rather than guilt by association if you are going to claim that Danny Akin and SEBTS forced Willy Rice to disinvite Carson. It is a stretch to argue that B21 forced anything either unless of course you have facts to back up your claim.
Fair enough, though I think it’s safe to assume an unsigned editorial on B21 has the approval of three Akins. 🙂 But my point is that it hurts the Convention to tell our newer friends that this is another institutional concern about the SBC. The fact that a group of pastors wants to hear from Dr. Carson is not yet another reason to avoid working with the SBC. But the theme of much criticism is that “I’m embarrassed to be a part of the SBC now.” And while I agree with this particular criticism of Adventism, I think back to… Read more »
Perhaps you read a different B21 article than I did. Where did B21 suggest boycotts or votes? Can an organization that claims to represent younger Southern Baptists, and seeks to get younger SBs engaged in the SBC, not speak to an issue of concern? The article was well-written and expressed appreciation for Willy Rice, while also speaking very clearly to the area of disagreement that in my estimation is no small matter. B21 did not tell me or other younger SBs what to think about this situation. I had strong feelings about it before B21 ever posted their article. B21… Read more »
Comments like “Many have lamented the lack of participation in SBC meetings by younger leaders … A generation will be missing if our meetings feel like political rallies for the GOP” give the false impression that an invitation to the Pastors Conference reflects the action of the SBC. That has led several people to say “we should have an SBC Committee,” or “I was going to walk out” or “I am so embarrassed as a Southern Baptist to be a part of this.” From B21 comments: “I can’t wait for B21 to rise up and take over. I’m so tired… Read more »
You give B21 far too much power, and ordinary young SBs like myself too little credit. I am perfectly capable of formulating my own thoughts about the situation. I din’t need B21 to tell me how to think. I tend to think that most young SBs are just as capable. Whether you like it or not, and whether it has always been that way, the pastor’s conference IS a part of our annual gathering. It takes place on the two days prior to the convention in the exact same building. You can find the PC displayed on the main webpage… Read more »
Adam, I agree with your criticism. The “technicality” allows me to disagree without participating in the wrong, and informs my level of reaction.
Many people are upset because “they” did something dumb in “our” name. This is a much easier problem to solve if we’d all agree “they” are not “us.” If they are us, I’d feel morally compelled to beat you to the microphone in Columbus to censure these guys.
But they’re not acting for me, and my reaction should be at the level I’d crticize any other Christian for putting together a conference that is muddled.
“But they’re not acting for me, and my reaction should be at the level I’d crticize any other Christian for putting together a conference that is muddled.” Yes, this is where we disagree. It most certainly is not the same as any other conference. I agree that we are not morally responsible for the decision made by Pastor Rice. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take action to prevent it from happening in the future. As a SB, I am able to act with regard to the SBC PC. As merely an attender of T4G, I have no ability to prevent… Read more »
This is just a rumor circulating by the child of someone working for Baptist Press…but, it appears that Dave Miller is starting his own annual PC, sponsored by the Cheesecake Factory. I think he may be on to something!
If he pays $25,000 honorariums I am going to send in my resume to be considered as a speaker. 😉
I’ll do it for $5,000 🙂
I’ll do it for $1,000 and piece of cheesecake!
Do I hear $500??
My bid is “0” as in zero, nada, nothing, just for the sake of preaching. Of course, I will likely have to lean on the pulpit or my walking cane, but I will give it my best shot. Only the Lord, however, can give it power.
All speakers will get the same salary I get for running SBC Voices.
I think Dave pays with slices of cheesecake, depending upon the type of message. Some messages can garner up to 3 or 4 slices….very exciting!
His “slice” technique tends to keep politics at bay, and the crowd is not as restless.
If he serves my mother’s cheesecake, I will want the whole thing. Probably DLP (after all, he probably likes it about as much as I do) and I will get into a church fight over that and split the whole SBC.
Dr. JW
No need to fight, your sister makes your Mom’s cheesecake for me quite often 🙂
Years ago there was a Bible Conference in Corpus Christi, Texas; circa the 1980s. They had a different preacher each night. Two of the nightly preachers were my dad, Joe Brumbelow, and his good friend, Clarence Branch. After the conference, each speaker was sent a check for $100. There had been no previous agreement about a fee or love offering. Clarence Branch called Joe Brumbelow and said, “Joe, I sure appreciate the $200. they sent me for preaching at the Bible Conference.” Joe said something like, “Clarence, you’re a troublemaker.” Lest anyone misunderstand, it was all in good fun. They… Read more »
David
I hope those days are not behind us. Men like your Dad is what made us what we are today I preached the annual sermon at the Missouri Baptist Convention in the mid 80’s… I got a cup of coffee and some travel. That is the way it should be. $100 thank you gift is good…..Large fees…no I don’t think so!
I am glad that Ben Carson is not speaking to the Pastor’s Conference. Beyond that, I am not getting too worked up about the rest of this. I liked the Pastor’s conference during the CR because it set the stage for what needed to happen in the SBC. Today, I believe it would be better to have a conference that is really geared toward helping pastors. What we usually have is a preach-off. A string of speakers, some good, some not so good. The panel discussion last year on depression was fantastic. I am not against a spiritual challenge from… Read more »
I wish we could come together i Columbus and sing hymns like “At Calvary” really mean it and just be renewed.
“Years I spent in vanity and pride, Caring not my Lord was crucified, Knowing not it was for me who died On Calvary.
Mercy there was great and grace was free; Pardon there was multiplied to me; There my burdened soul found liberty At Calvary”
Yep, that would be a good ‘un.
If I was Pastors’ Conference president, I would ask each speaker to preach on the Cross of Christ. I think 12 messages on the Cross might encourage a few souls. But that’s just me.
Sounds like a good campaign platform to me.
Where is the “like” button?
Amen! One thing for sure, preaching The Cross of Christ is always right, and even an invitation. When reading this I was remembering attending a revival services many years ago right after I surrendered to preach the Gospel and on the 1st night a lady came forward who was over 65 years of age. That night she realized she was not really saved when she was baptize in that Baptist Church at age of 6 years old I will never forget that night, the rejoicing that went on that night in that church among everyone, it was wonderful. The rejoicing… Read more »