I will never ever understand why people can’t condemn white supremacy as is, without having to give qualifiers regarding black people. No black person ran over an alt-white racist today. White supremacy kills. It murders, rapes, pillages, destroys, and damns. Yes, black people can be racist. But the image of racist hate over the past 24 hours has not been black, it’s been white. To me, white people should be able to condemn white supremacy outright. Condemning white supremacy shouldn’t have to be wedded to the condemnation of black racism.
You know, I’ll say it. It is a miracle in America that all black people don’t hate white people. It speaks to the grace, forgiveness, and love of the black community as well as to the power of the Gospel which has been central to their history and collective experience. The history of the African American experience in America is one of abounding grace and forgiveness. Blacks have been kidnapped, enslaved, raped, murdered, oppressed, marginalized, and terrorized ever since they stepped foot on this continent. Black people are a traumatized people group, who live with trauma everyday of their lives from as far back as they remember. Does such trauma and racialized abuse breed racism? Yes, but that is a traumatized victim’s response; it is understandable even if it’s not justifiable. Black racism towards whites is NOT the same as white supremacy. White Supermacy and Black Racism are two necessary but entirely separate conversations. There is no place in the Kingdom of God for either. Today, White Supremacy needs to be condemned without criticizing black people’s response to it. This is all the more necessary for those who do not know how to engage with victims of racialized trauma in a way that is senstive to its affects and nuances. This does not mean we don’t talk about black racism. It means it’s a conversation for another day. Today, black people are in mourning and are expressing lamentations.
Dear person of color, who is living life with racialized trauma. The racism and white supremacy you have endured is not your fault. Calling out racism and the systems and ideologies that promote it does not make you guilty of contributing to white supremacy. Ever. White supremacy ALWAYS seeks to justify itself by claiming the victors are victimized, and the real victims are the victimizers. White supremacy always seeks to make minorities feel like they are the problem. A wife is never responsible for her physical abuse. Even if her husband gets angry because she is the one who challenged him in his anger or instigated the argument. Likewise, people of color are not guilty of contributing to white supremacy. People of color are no more guilty of white supremacy than a rape victim is for being raped. Even if a rape victim turns down a man’s advances bluntly or disrespectfully, she is never responsible in any way for her rape. It’s never okay to blame a victim for their abuse, and it’s not okay if you are a person of color and are being blamed as contributing to white supremacy.
Yes, there is a time and place to confront or correct a victim regarding their own sin. Sometimes, a person’s own sin can lead them into situations where it is more likely they will experience the affects of another’s sin. But they are never responsible for that other person’s sin. Ever.
What we saw in Charlottesville was not simply racism. I think racism is too general and not specific enough. White Supremacy gets at the heart of racialization in America. That’s kind of the point of this post. The issue at hand isn’t simply “racism”. If you think it is, you may become inclined to wrongly generalize this issue as hate and violence “on both sides”. General racism isn’t on display right now and so “black racism” has little place in this discussion. The issue at hand is white supremacy. White supremacy is what allowed for a racist militia to be present unabated while a toy gun got Tamir Rice killed in seconds. White supremacy allows for torch lighting Neo-nazi protests to be considered “exercising first amendment” and black lives matter protestors called “terrorism”. White supremacy allows for these terrorists to show their faces and yet attend work this morning while Colin Kaepernick was labeled a terrorist for kneeling and has been black listed from continuing in his career. To me, I believe emphasizing white supremacy is important because generalizing this issue as “Racism” allows people to look away from the true issue; the racism that is boiling over in this country is largely one-sided. It is white supremacy rearing its ugly head.
This is WHITE supremacy. You know, that thing that has been the mistress of western religion for centuries. It has been the bride of the culture since Native Americans were raped, pillaged, and killed. It has been Justice’s lover since black bodies were sold as property to whites and the often perverse yoke of bondage was placed around their necks. This past weekend was nothing more than this countries renewing of vows with an old devil called white supremacy. Many thought it was laid to rest, but many people of color have known better. No, like the witch in the film Tangled she had beautified herself to hide her haggardness, but she has always been alive and active. It continues to dress itself in the garments of justice and woo souls away from love with songs of ideology. It will not win this nation, but it is ruling the hearts of many. We must fight this ancient demon by name.
Thank you, Kyle, for allowing Voices to post this here. Your perspective is one to which we all should listen.
Thanks Scott,for taking the time to read it!
This isn’t that hard. This goes beyond racial division. The response to any kind of sin or evil should not be “but what about…?”. I can say white supremacy is evil without listing the 86 other sins that I think are equally evil. The reality of non-white racism does not mitigate white supremacy. Why bring it up? This is just like the talking heads on TV who respond to every bad thing Trump does by saying “what about Obama”? This ought to be beyond Christians.
Good word, Bill. And thanks to Kyle for the OP. It’s a breath of fresh air after the last two days. I’ve read so many excuses, minimizations and false equivalencies it really is embarrassing.
Because Bill sin is sin is sin. Right? I object to the idea of bringing up one means that I am providing a moral equivalency and excusing racism in one unless all racism is acknowledged. Balderdash, Poppycock, Nonsense. Sorry I refuse to give you the moral high ground to define the terms of engagement or what characterizes “moral equivalency.” How is ignoring the sin of racism in all people deflective or a moral equivalency? I would also say that bearing the truth that the sin of racism infects all people does not mitigate white supremacy in the least. I refuse again to give you the moral high ground to define the terms of engagement.
I will return the fire: does ignoring all racism instead of white supremacy give those who are not white yet racist moral permission to be racist? Or is it only whites who can be racist?
Rob
Rob,
Huh?
Was I too fast for you Scott or do you need a repeat :-).
Rob
What I get from this post is that Whites are to blame for almost everything, and Blacks are not responsible for much of anything.
A lady was apparently murdered by a White Supremacist in Charlottesville, Virginia over the weekend, others seriously injured. Give them time to investigate. If the accused White person is found guilty, he should get the death penalty.
But all White people are no more to blame for this, than all Black people are to blame when five Dallas police officers were murdered by a Black man.
David R. Brumbelow
What I get is that there are certain acceptable responses to Charlottesville and some that are not. Yours is not. It’s tough to have a dialogue when you’ve been lectured on what you can say, when, and how. I get a lot of this and, on a day when I’m less irascible and more attuned to the nuances, I’d probably reflect and learn something that I hadn’t really thought about.
Oh, William.
You irascible? Naw!
😉
William: It’s written as I believe it should be written. There is no room for dialogue and in this case, it should be written that way. And it is the right response. White people listening and just reading is the only response. Mourning and even being surprised that the Alt-right and KKK do still exist and that this is just the beginning.
For once dialogue is fruitless. I personally do not want dialogue other than I am shocked and so sorry that this happened. The time for dialogue is over, especially since you and others give the same response which means nothing considering the horrific circumstances. Reading, listening. It’s as it should be.
Not even giving theology is a right response. Theology means nothing to me in light of your and others response. It may mean nothing to the black community, and I wouldn’t blame them. I also wouldn’t blame them for hating every white person given the response or lack of it of empathy and horror.
With respect, if that is what you got you definitely did not read it carefully. There is nothing in this post that should lead to that conclusion. Try reading it again, as is; not through your presuppositions. 🙂
Hey Debbie, thank for sharing your thoughts! I’m with you, I think that there is a historical pattern of those belonging to the majority culture lacking a willingness to truly listen and hear from minorities rather than speak. A posture that is willing to learn rather than always having to be the ones teaching. Your point rings true there.
Regarding theology, theology and scripture have always been extremely central to the African American experience. Even when the majority culture church has walked in deep hypocrisy regarding its theological convictions, the black churches theological foundations is what kept it abounding in love towards its oppressors as well as in peace before God. The black Church has always had a high view of God and his sovereignty and that ha sustained in for the past several hundred years. The main issue here, is that the black community does indeed have a distrust towards “White theology”. A large reason for that is many people of color believe that doctrine is theologically suspect if it doesn’t lead to love and compassion. Minority groups have trouble accepting theological assertions from those who do not abound in love and empathy towards them. This is not an unbiblical response, the Apostle Paul says in I Corinthians 13 that one can have a voice of an angel but without love what they say is nothing but love. I pray that the majority culture church would seek to abound in love in such a way that they remove the theological suspicion that it currently has is removed. How white Christians and churches respond to this event will speak heavily towards whether or not such a thing will happen. Blessings!
EVERYBODY has presuppositions. Ever heard of “the myth of neutrality”? So, if our “beginning” is not based on the Word of Christ, then we’ll get it wrong over and over again.
You are right, Maria. No one, except me, is perfectly neutral and objective.
I really liked this article Kyle. Thank you.
When the Spirit confronts me of my personal sin, I often try the “yeah, but look at that sin over there” argument.
It’s a dodge. We’re all very gifted at dodging.
If I am not guilty of sin when the Accuser comes at me, I don’t take the charge into account. I certainly don’t compare my alleged sin of which I am not guilty of to someone else’s sin.
If you’re serious about reconciliation, quit playing the comparison game of I’ll take your one innocent bystander and raise you by five policeman.
No, African-Americans are not responsible for white supremacy, but it takes two to fight. A little consistency on this issue from certain circles would certainly be refreshing. Allen West explains it quite well in this article: https://www.allenbwest.com/2017/08/13/ok-folks-heres-really-happened-charlottesville-everyone-missing/
Kyle writes that we shouldn’t deflect from white supremacy and then Ken posts a comment that demonstrates pure deflection. “But it take two to fight!” “There were extreme leftists there too!” I’d recommend reading again and listening a little better this time.
Except, it doesn’t really take two to fight. Do we blame the kid who finally, having been bullied and having nowhere left to run, punches the bully in the nose?
That fight might involve two, but the fault is on one side as the instigator—and the bystanders who did nothing.
Can we not have people posting with just first names? A last initial would be helpful.
Ken Hamrick, you’re right that would be helpful. Sometimes we’re stricter than others on the name policy. Other Ken above, please help us out and avoid confusion by posting with your real first and last name in the future.
Really good article. Does a lot to explain what’s going on and why the response by white people needs to be to listen first before attempting to explain away the grievances of those who have suffered generations of oppression.
I also really appreciate your delving into the crazy inequalities we see when it comes to policing and enforcement of laws. You are very right about the reactions to Tamir Rice vs the gun toting marauders in Virginia. Even more, how about the kids at the pool in McKinney last year vs this crowd decked out in swastikas and stars and bars.
I am praying my white brothers and sisters will listen to your words and actually think about them. We have a lot to learn from this article.
Kyle: Amen!
Kyle,
Your voice, as your post, is timely, on point, needed, and valuable.
There will always be those who hear, but don’t understand, or intentionally refuse to understand. The failure is not in your communication, but in their hearing. We must blend our voices in the SBC, so that people will know that, there are other voices that are distinct, that may sound like a voice of understanding.
Mr. Howard,
Your statement that “White Supremacy gets at the heart of racialization in America” is spiritually and biblically wrong. Racialization is defined as the act or process of imbuing a person with a consciousness of race distinctions or of giving a racial character to something or making it serve racist ends. America does not have racist ends. Have you forgotten Wilberforce in England and the Civil War in America? It is unregenerated American souls that are not capable of doing good (as stated in Romans) that have racist ends. So the heart of racialization in America is not a label of White Supremacy, but SIN. Since Genesis and the fall of man, man has wanted not to worship and enjoy God, but to be like God… to be god. And thus to be god would mean to have supremacy over others. Finally, sin and its wish for supremacy, will only be defeated one soul at a time by the divine drawing of John 6:44. This should not surprise any Bible believing regenerated soul such as yours.
Tim, you’ve just demonstrated the either/or fallacy. Is sin OR white supremacy the cause of racialization? It’s wrong to pick either one to the exclusion of the other. Both are.
If we were to be more specific, sin is the cause of white supremacy, which is (virtually exclusively) the cause of racialization in this country.
Joshua 5:13-14
White Supremacy is easy to condemn and it should be condemned.
And it has been condemned.
From the President on down.
With hesitancy.
There’s Trump speech v.1 and then Trump speech v.2. Kyle’s legitimate question is why people would think that v.1 is sufficient in the first place and calling us to a place where things like that don’t happen.
Brent,
I would say with delay, not hesitancy.
Race is the third rail in American politics. You touch it, in the wrong way, and your finished.
The President surely missed an opportunity to condemn racist elements in our society.
When I said these groups are easy to condemn, they really are. We have had these KKK “rallies” most of my adult life. They are always pathetic affairs. They’re so lame and uninteresting, the media usually doesn’t cover them live. If they write about them, it’s so little, that no one really cares.
And these people, rightfully, have no friends. I know of no one who supports this stuff.
On race issues, with this President, I feel any suggestion that he is supporting or harboring racist sentiments is way off the mark. Trump is a baby boomer from Manhattan. He’s been in the public eye his entire life, and to my knowledge has never been seen or labeled a racist. A lot has been written about this man over the decades, and his sins and failures are public and well known. But race hasn’t been one of them. In fact, I read something about him taking a racially progressive stand when he place at Mar-a-laga was formed.
The fact that his daughter, son in law, grandchildren etc. are Jewish, disqualifies him as a suspect in the neo-Nazi department. At least in my view.
But politics being what it is today, the minute any candidate finds himself/herself to be the Republican nominee, you may as well get ready to be labeled a racist, regardless of how silly that may seem. And following there shortly thereafter, will come the demands that the Republican nominee denounce this person or that person. This game is played every 4 years. Bush the Younger was faced with demands to condemn the South Carolina flag, even though he was the Governor of Texas and had no relation to that flag. (Interestingly, the guy who had raised that flag in South Carolina was sitting in the US Senate at the time – Fritz Hollings. Nobody ever, to my knowledge, demanded that he confess his role in the raising of that flag and publicly condemn it.)
So, you see how this game is played.
The awful events of VA deserve condemnation. The racist elements of that day deserve special attention and condemnation.
The failure to do so on Saturday was a missed opportunity and struck the wrong chord at the time. I am glad the President added to the record his feelings about White supremacy.
But I do not see his not doing do on Saturday as a moral failure, a dog whistle, a fear to confront certain groups.
At least that’s the way I see this.
I’ve said this before, but I don’t think Trump is necessarily racist, but racists are an important portion of his base, and right now especially, he’s afraid of losing his base of support. He may not fundamentally agree with them, but he doesn’t want to lose them. Right now his hard core base is all the support he’s got.
Bill Mac, you must think that there are a lot more of them than there actually are. Trump has disavowed those extremist groups multiple times and they are actually pretty upset right now with him for his additional comments yesterday. If he truly cared about that small part of his base, he would have addressed things a lot differently.
The Trauma theme needs to be developed further and understood by white evangelicals. While trauma often leads to responses that are ungodly, you are right to point out that black racism is NOT the same as white supremacy — they are categorically different. Thanks for pointing that out.
When we discipline our child, who among us allows them to deflect with a “what about” their sibling? We white conservatives need to stop deflecting about the sin in our camp (and often still lingering in our own hearts) with “what about” statements about black racism, liberal politicians, or leftist extremism. It’s time for us to stop the “what about…?” knee-jerk response and face up to the kind of racism of which we are most culpable and over which we have the most influence.
I agree with you about the deflection point when disciplining – but i’m not sure it’s a good analogy here…
Because I don’t discipline my child unless he has done something wrong – I do not discipline him because of the wrongs of other children.
White supremacy is a white problem. White society’s injustice toward people of color is a white problem. While you or I may not be individually responsible, we are corporately culpable and have the most influence as white persons over white racism. It is neither helpful nor appropriate to respond to every call for whites to help end white racism with “what about the blacks?” Or to every call for the right to end rightwing extremism with “what about the left?” It’s pure deflection and keeps us from doing what we can to bring an end to evil addressing these problems head on.
I see your point – but I think perhaps you and others are being a little unwilling to see the points of people who are on “your side against all forms of racism” (for lack of better term) who address it differently than you’d like.
Todd, you are very passionate about this issue and that is a good thing… I am not in anyway saying you shouldn’t be… i am too – I absolutely hate racism in any form.
I am simply saying that there are others of us who are also passionate about it and just because we see it a little differently than you doesn’t mean we’re equivocating or deflecting.
One problem with the general statements about all forms of racism is that it keeps things in the abstract and hinders the effort to address the specific forms of racism where the exist. Another problem is that such statements assume an equivalence that just isn’t there and thus excuses our tolerance of racism within our ranks and softens our resolve toward ending such racism in our own camp. Whites can and should denounce white supremacy without adding comments about other kinds of racism and conservatives should denounce the alt-right nazism without having to add comments about radical leftists. When we generalize or add “what about”s we are actually choosing a weak position against ALL racism rather than a strong one.
Todd, brother if I said that it didn’t bother me that you view me as weak on this issue – i’d be lying…
However, I don’t think that’s a correct analysis though.
I hope y’all have a great day.
I believe one approach is weaker than another and I am arguing for the stronger approach. I make no value judgment on you personally. I am only trying to persuade you to adopt what I believe is a more effective and unifying strategy.
Well, frankly – it seems that you and others here are doing much more than that.
The approach many take here on voices is quite off putting and the active shaming taking place insulting to those who agree with you
wholeheartedly in principle but see nuance when it comes to solutions.
Honestly, y’all are shooting at friends (both ideologically and relationally) and I don’t get it.
Because of the damage being done in the world and among our Black brethren by the excuse-making, equivalence-drawing, what-abouting done by so many.
Can you not sense the hurt and frustration in Kyle’s post?
Yes I sense it – and I’m doing what I can – my conscience is clear before the Lord. I’m not equivocating.
All I am advocating for is dropping the second paragraphs in a lot of these comments. Stop before the “but” or the “and.”
It is wrong.
Not it is wrong AND so is this.
Or it is wrong but WHATABOUT that?
Just confront racism.
When we have dealt with that, we can face other things.
Racism
The second paragraphs?
The buts, ands,
Whatabouts?
Am I doing that?
I deplore and condemn all forms of racism, hatred and bigotry. Period.
I posted this in on FB I. white letters with black background for effect….
“To hate and despise a human being because of his skin color or for that matter any other reason is against the gospel of Christ!”
Tarheel — I agree what Dave says here. There is no shaming intended and I feel like I know you and can say with confidence that you are a friend on this issue and others. These remarks/comments are not aimed at you but at all of us.
The point we are trying to make is, for the sake of moral clarity and unity with our brothers and sisters of color, let’s deal with the issue of white supremacy and alt-right racism distinctly and directly without having to qualify our remarks by lumping in other forms of racialism to address at the same time. We white evangelicals should oppose racism firmly, directly and consistently within our own camp first and let that stand alone. Why such opposition to that idea?
Our brothers and sisters NEED us to be clear and direct in our opposition to white supremacy. They’re asking us to be clear and direct on this issue. For the sake of unity, let’s show them by our words what we already believe in our hearts. Let’s clearly condemn white supremacy without addition or qualification or distraction.
Yes! Excellent point brother.
[When we generalize or add “what about”s we are actually choosing a weak position against ALL racism rather than a strong one.]
Not true, Todd. I don’t see why addressing all forms of racism is a bad thing. I’m personally tired of the one-sided anti-white rants (especially against SBC whites and other white Christians) every time an unregenerate sinner engages in ungodly behavior related to race. Why are we still surprised that these things happen? And no, all whites are NOT “corporately culpable” for the actions of a few extremists. It’s this type of thinking that divides rather than unites are own fellow brothers in Christ.
When addressing racism generally, then the “all” language is fine and appropriate. When addressing a movement that claims to speak for the white race and for the conservative movement and for the POTUS, it is incumbent upon whites/conservatives/POTUS to singularly and directly denounce, disavow and condemn that specific racism without throwing in other groups as well. To be silent or to speak only in generalizations or catch-all condemnations only strengthens and emboldens those who we seek to condemn.
Since you asked, yes, I condemn white supremacy. But at the considerable risk of incurring condemnation myself, I will say that I think the article here makes more of white supremacy than it should—not that it goes too far in condemning it or rightly characterizing the evil of it, but in seeming to give it as a movement more weight than it has. Maybe I’m just poorly informed, but aren’t these WS groups merely a bunch of nuts on the fringe of society? They certainly don’t garner the numbers that would justify viewing all whites with a suspicious eye.
I agree that white racism is not the fault of blacks. It’s the fault of sin, as is any racism. The history is indeed horrendous, and this country owes a lot to blacks because of it. But there is nothing inherently more racist or more evil about the white race. As tragic and condemnable as were the crimes of the white race against the black, the sinful human heart and not the color of the oppressor’s skin was the real cause. Historically, abuse and oppression tended to occur where there was opportunity, with those nations that had an economic superiority taking advantage of those less fortunate. Had any other race been in the position that the white west was in during the 17th-19th centuries, would racial oppression have been nonexistent? It is the human heart, and not the white heart or the black heart or the Asian heart that is evil.
I think the question of the actual size and influence of the alt-right is a question worth exploring. I’m not sure if it’s small or really small, but I do believe it’s growing and emboldened. So regardless of the size, the trajectory makes it an important topic.
But it is important to say that people who are most directly affected by it, people of color, will likely be better at letting us know how big of a problem it is. If the 5 houses surrounded by mine are infested with termites, but mine isn’t, I may not be able to explain to others the extent of the termite problem in my area, at least not nearly as well as those who have dealt with the problem personally.
Brent you wrote, “I do believe [the alt-right is] growing and emboldened.” Re “emboldened” it is my thought that the counter-protests and such like may actually invigorate them to become bolder and louder. While they should be opposed, it seems to me that ignoring their protest gatherings might actually drain some of the energy from what they are doing.
This post seems to be arguing against something I’m not sure anyone here is saying.
I’ve seen. I on on this blog or heard in my church, or heard anywhere that “the sinful scourge of white supremacy is the fault of blacks”.
I also disagree that statements condemning all forms of racial superiority, bigotry and hatred are wrong and immoral is suggesting that one type of said sins is less or more agregious than the other.
Some are suggesting that condemning racism without naming the name of white supremacy is equivocation – or that listing other examples of sins of racism along with it is deflecting. Do we do that with other sins?
Was the apostle Paul equivocating or deflecting when he gave his list of sins and scripture… He didn’t name every possible sin by name and left out some that perhaps we thought he should’ve named…
-“Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.”
??Hebrews? ?13:4? –
How dare the author not mention one night stands by name ( he must be equivocating and deflecting)
Calling out ALL racism hatred and bigotry and as sin is not equivocating or deflecting any more than than the New Testament authors lists of sins are …. in fact its necessary to be clear.
In fact – by being exclusive about the type of racism we call out – aren’t we in danger of going exactly what everyone here should resist the appearance of condoning any racism whatsoever?
Tarheel,
I think if you are speaking generally, then general denouncements of racism are fine. I think what most people are getting at here is that when white supremacy rears its head, the response should not be “but blacks are racist too”.
Bill Mac:
I agree with that statement.
Context and timing are everything.
There are 24 ours in a day. There’s a lot of time to deal with all sorts of problems.
When dealing with White Supremacy, deal with that and don’t confuse the issue by trying to shoot at other targets at the same time. Otherwise we give uncertain sound.
Bill, I agree with that too.
Dave,
Here is how I would respond to this. You are correct that at times Paul painted with a broad brush when calling out sin. But did he paint with a broad brush when a specific situation was happening? When he opposed Peter to his face did he say, “I know that Gentiles have just as much a part in this….but you….”? When he was dealing with the specific case of incest in Corinth did he generalize or be specific?
I do believe there is a time for us to speak out against ALL forms or racism. But specific situations call for specific responses. If we generalize when we ought to have been specific, it communicates something. Especially when we’ve shown a penchant for being specific when it’s “the other side” committing the sin.
Mike,
That is a problem: that as brothers in Christ there is other sides. And as long as we have other sides we will not have unity.
The world will have other sides because they do not have any place for unity.
But we do. In Christ there is neither black or white, make or female, rich or poor.
It’s the SBC a white only organization? What side is the SBC side? The white side?
When you look at the world do you look at it like mere men do or you look at it like your Father does?
And as long as you see the world not like God does how will you grasp His wisdom in how to deal with it?
The racism displayed by the white nationalists groups in Charlottesville and in other places is sin and abhorrent to God. Christians especially, should repent from racist acts and thoughts, and be shining lights in this darkened world.
I agree. That’s why I put “the other side” in quotes. There certainly are differences within the body of Christ but that should not cause us to have “sides”.
Dave Cline,
Why can’t we just call the evil of White supremacy and racism evil? Why not just denounce it? Why must we always qualify that with “whatabouts” and equivalences to the “other side?”
There is always another side on every issue. But on this issue, there are evil, wicked, vile White Supremacists claiming to represent the party most of us are either a part of or USED to be part of (some of us renounced the GOP). They are claiming to “unite the right.” So it is wholly appropriate for us to say we are not united with them but stand against them.
With NO equivocation.
I’m not equivocating…not at all. I am speaking clearly oh my Facebook page, on this thread, and more importantly in community and in my church against racism – it’s all deplorable – it’s all disgusting – it all grieves the heart of Jesus – and it all grieves my heart. I hate racism.
At this point I’m not sure what else I can say… I know that in your eyes and in the eyes of others I am found wanting On this issue – clearly I’m not a spiritually in tune as y’all are… Perhaps one day I may attain near the lofty perch you rest upon.
yes. we can and should condemn white supremacy as sinful and evil and destructive. we (a white family in New England) stand with you and our POC sisters & brothers against this movement of evil in our world.
It seems like this is getting played down by much of the Church, and that saddens me. All of us are created in His image, no matter our race, social status, color of skin, gender, etc. That alone should be enough for us as Christians to call this what it is – hate. Which is SIN. Many of us, who are white Christians, have grown accustomed to believing that we are “better than” – why?? Would we even let Jesus walk through our doors today with his dark hair and olive skin, or would we fear his middle-eastern appearance? We need to stop treating this like it’s not a big deal, stop being silent, have real, hard conversations with those who look different than us, live on a different side of town than us, make more or less money than we do, etc, and learn from them. Thank you, Kyle, for this article.
Thank you and Amen. We need more viewpoints from POC in order to get out of our white bubble. Grateful to have this published and I linked it to our all white pastors and elders board, and subscribed in hopes of continued inputs, because more diversity in our media will reach and educate to break down walls. The Gospel has the power and only way to break down hostilities.
A white reader and now subscriber.
Sadly, there are many members of the religious community who support leaving the Confederate Flag and the statue up right where it is. They say it’s history. Yes, I’l too say it’s history, but it’s a dark history, a history that should put behind us and should be only viewed only in the history books not lifted up high on a banner for the purpose of gaining support by all hate groups. I think we Christians should condemn hatred and stand for the goodness of God.
“What about the politicians such as the city council who voted to remove a memorial that had been in place since 1924, regardless of the possible repercussions? How about the city politicians who issued the permit for the lawful demonstration to defend the statue? And why didn’t the mayor or the governor see that a powder keg was about to explode and stop it before it got started?”
“I denounce bigotry and racism of every form, be it black, white or any other. My prayer is that our nation will come together. We are stronger together, and our answers lie in turning to God.”
-Franklin Graham, Samaritan’s Purse
David R. Brumbelow
Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal on the use of the “Whatabout” ploy…
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-roots-of-the-what-about-ploy-1497019827
Thank you, Kyle, for this. Grateful for your voice.
“The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding ‘antifa’ beating white nationalist being led out of the park.”
-Sheryl Gay Stolberg, New York Times
David R. Brumbelow
I saw the video. The counter-protest (antifa, BLM) was as violent as the other side with one exception- the guy who drove his car into a crowd of people killing one (who btw was white, not black) and injuring several. He is charged with murder.
Tom, we kindly ask that you use your name when you post. Using your full name is not a strict requirement but we prefer if you would.
The violence of the counter protest is really not what we’re discussing here. Yes, the violent aspects were wrong and illegal. Regardless of whether anything had turned violent, there was initially a white supremacist gathering and our discussion here is the need for Christians to speak clearly and without qualification that the original alt-right/KKK demonstration was wrong and evil and that we won’t accept it. Space is available below if either of you would like to give that kind of unqualified condemnation of the KKK, neo-nazi, swastika-carrying group that we’re discussing here.
Brent: “Tom, we kindly ask that you use your name when you post.”
Is this a new rule just instituted today?…or within the last few hours?…as I see several on this page alone that haven’t posted their full name-“Bill Mac” “Scott H” “Tarheel_Dave” “Mike W” “Ken” “Louis” “April” “Dan B” “Heather H” “Jess” “Molly” “Allie”
Brent: “our discussion here is the need for Christians to speak clearly and without qualification that the original alt-right/KKK demonstration was wrong and evil and that we won’t accept it. Space is available below if either of you would like to give that kind of unqualified condemnation of the KKK, neo-nazi, swastika-carrying group that we’re discussing here.”
I don’t feel a need to pass your test. I’ll call evil wherever I see it.
All of those groups that were at Charlottesville- KKK, Skinheads, Nazis, BLM, Antifa -are evil.
We have a policy about using your real name, which is more strictly enforced, although sometimes we let it slide because we don’t have time to police every comment.
You can see this post, specifically #3 for more information: https://sbcvoices.com/sbc-voices-welcomes-comments-and-discussion/ It addresses the questions you asked regarding comment moderation.
So, yes, please use your first and last name or let a moderator know who you are and then use at least your last initial to avoid confusion with other Toms.
Brent, see Allie and Molly and others? I don’t know Tom, but Tom shouldn’t be singles out.
Thanks brother.
Brent, and Jess and Louis.
Les, we have the general policy, some people are excepted because they’ve contacted moderators and given a reason for only posting with a handle or first name only. Other times we just don’t notice or don’t have time to address it. See the link above for further explanation.
Thanks Brent.
Thank you, Kyle, for posting truth powerfully and eloquently. You encourage me often, brother!
Thank you. I can’t imagine the toll this is taking but you are doing gospel work, putting yourself and your energy into true healing and reconciliation. Thank you for that sacrifice. Although you might seemed overwhelmed by hardened hearts, there are some, myself included that have experienced change and are trying to take baby steps forward. Thank you for being a patient guide and teacher. God bless.
I really don’t think folks should say things like “Both sides were at fault” in Charlottesville. During the Civil war you had General Lee under the Confederate Flag fighting against the United States of America. The side that stands for freedom is never at fault. Freedom is what we are about, not slavery or oppression in any form. If we even remotely think White Supremacists, the KKK, or the Nazi movement didn’t have evil intentions, I think we need to do some serious soul searching. When freedom is at stake, you can’t put the blame the ones fighting for it.
Jess, from a piece by Ann Coulter (I know, queue up the Coulter is just a hack replies):
“They’re all “fascists”! Ipso facto, the people cracking their skulls and smashing store windows are “anti-fascists,” or as they call themselves, “antifa.””
And…
“As the “Unite the Right” crowd was dispersing, they were forced by the police into the path of the peace-loving, rock-throwing, fire-spraying antifa. A far-left reporter for The New York Times, Sheryl Gay Stolberg, tweeted live from the event: “The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding ‘antifa’ beating white nationalists being led out of the park.””
But surely we shouldn’t say both sides were at fault, right?
Les,
No matter how you put it or try to weave it into something it was not, you had hate groups fighting for white supremacy. The Alt-Left as you call it was fighting for freedom. You cannot say the left was equally responsible in any form because freedom is what America is about. Ann Coulter is a right wing extremist and cannot be trusted with the truth. Les, except for the Supreme Court Justice, Trump has done nothing that can’t be changed with a stroke of a pen. Trump has a long history of prejudice. Les, I really don’t think you have solid ground to stand on about this issue.
Jess –
Are you saying it’s ok to bash… attack… hurt an alt right hate group as long as you are fighting for freedom?
Jess,
“No matter how you put it or try to weave it into something it was not, you had hate groups fighting for white supremacy.” Agree.
“The Alt-Left as you call it was fighting for freedom.” Including freedom of speech for the KKK and such? Or fighting to suppress their freedom of speech?
“You cannot say the left was equally responsible in any form because freedom is what America is about.” I didn’t say they were “equally responsible.”
“Ann Coulter is a right wing extremist and cannot be trusted with the truth.” You were right on queue. But do notice the lfrt leaning reporter’s words (not Coulter’s words): “The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding ‘antifa’ beating white nationalists being led out of the park.” Hmmm.
“Les, except for the Supreme Court Justice, Trump has done nothing that can’t be changed with a stroke of a pen.” I have said nothing about what Trump has done or not done policy wise.
“Trump has a long history of prejudice.” Are you saying DT is a Racist?
“The side that stands for freedom is never at fault.”
So, it’s OK to attack a group you disagree with as long as you are for freedom?
The alt-right group was totally in the wrong and clear thinking people need to stand in opposition to them. But end “freedom” does not justify all means.
Would you support those who stand for freedom to line the opposition up and execute them? I would find fault in such an action, no matter how much freedom you stand for.
Jon Estes,
Was America in the wrong for fighting against the Nazi’s in world War II? Are Christians in the wrong for standing up against White Supremacists here on Voices? Is America wrong for standing up for freedom all over the world. Jon, freedom is what’s at stake here. You are trying to narrow the conversation down to some radicals on the left and not seeing the bigger picture. Trump, Bannon, and the Alt-Right are causing such a deep division in our nation that I’m surprised that more skirmishes hasn’t broken out in more states. Jon, I would never take sides with the KKK, Nazis or White Supremacists under no circumstances. Jon, you should be offended that these groups still even exist. This is not what America stands for. If you happen to be a pastor or even a Christian, you are walking on egg shells.
Jess, “Jon, freedom is what’s at stake here. You are trying to narrow the conversation…”
And you are refusing to answer Jon’s question. Here it is again, “So, it’s OK to attack a group you disagree with as long as you are for freedom?”
Well, is it Jon?
Les Prouty,
I’ll answer your question with a question. Is it Okay to run over a young woman with a car and killing her. A young woman who could have had a very bright future. Radicalism to the point of violence is never okay. That doesn’t take away from the fact that freedom is the bigger picture.
I hope you meant Jess in your final question Les.
Oops Jon. Yes, Jess I meant to say, “Well, is it Jess?”
Jess,
“Is it Okay to run over a young woman with a car and killing her.”
No, of course not.
“Radicalism to the point of violence is never okay.”
Agreed.
Is it ok for the counter protesters (as you say the folks standing for freedom) who were there that day to inflict physical violence on the KKK and the other hate groups demonstrating, as reported by that reporter?
AND, do you state that Donald Trump is a racist?
Standing for freedom is what we must support and do as Americans. That was the battle we fought to become the nation out forefathers imagined.
To use that banner and become aggressors against those we disagree with (outside of war) is wrong. It puts those who carry the banner for freedom as hypocrites.
We can’t initiate violence to take away the freedoms of other Americans.
The KKK, White supremacists and whatever other names they associate as are hate groups that need to be exposed and stood against in a non-violent way. To do more is to be a fault in a fight for freedom. They no longer are persons for freedom but violent thugs.
Now, if no one in Charlottesville who opposed the alt-right initiated violence, let’s celebrate their efforts to protest the way people for true freedom should behave.
Freedom as a principle andsuch a goal is awesome but becoming violent against other Americans who you disagree with is not freedom. If you think so, you are wrong.
Jess,
” If you happen to be a pastor or even a Christian, you are walking on egg shells.”
I am a pastor. Been in ministry since 1979.
I pastor a multicultural church where my deacon chair is from Ethiopia. My vice chair is froim Nigeria, the rest are from Philipines (2), India (2), Malaysia (1).
I see no reason to remove the statues… does that make me a racist or part of the alt-right? I see no good for the violence in Charlottesville, VA (my home state), the hatred of some is wicked, no matter if one claims that freedom as their cause gives them the right to hate and cause violence. Anyone of such a mindset forfeits the right to claim freedom is their cause.
Seeing the bigger picture, not just one side.
It should read — the hatred of any other person is wicked.
Jon Estes,
If you are content with a General who fought against the United States of America, and the states that supported slavery and wanted to remove themselves from the Union, then I suppose that’s up to you. I just think we should at least look into what black people have gone through. It was not so long ago when a black woman stuck her toe in a swimming pool at a hotel, and the managers drained the pool because then black folks were not allowed to swim with white folks. Can you imagine, her toe contaminated an entire pool.
Jon, I’m not saying you are prejudice, but I think you might have some issues you need to work through. It’s the Alt-Right against the United States of America. All you have to do is watch a legitimate news report, one that backs up what they say with a camera and mic.
Jess,
The Alt-right is against the America you, I and probably all on this board want and believe we ought to be from a proven historical Judeo-Christin foundation.
My point is, we cannot ignore the wrong actions of those who want the America we want when they do evil things… as some did in Charlottesville.
I am content with a General that made a difficult choice to stand against what he saw as an oppressive government. His life is not only about that one major decision. His life’s testimony is also of a believer in Christ who had a strong sense of love towards God. His testimony shows he was supportive of letting slaves be free. His testimony show he freed every slave his father willed him. At his own expense he bought bibles for his soldiers. He led Bible studies with his soldiers.
He did not see nor understand things as we do many decades later. His culture molded much of his thinking towards African Americans. This thinking was wrong. His culture was wrong. Was REL an evil man? I don’t think so. Others will disagree just as some in the future will think we are evil for the cultural positions we take… as we believe we are currently making the best and right action.
No issues on this… I’m just willing to say there were those on both side who acted evil in Charlottesville. I refuse to ignore one because they claim to want the freedom I want. What they did is not, in any way, the way to show it.
I think if we understand the Alt-Right movement and where it originated from then we can see the dark evil it represents. Steve Bannon helps put these things in Donald Trump’s head. There is no Alt-Left, this was made up by Bannon and repeated by Donald Trump.
Jess –
I have not seen anyone on this thread say the Alt-Right is not a dark evil. That is settled in this discussion.
That you refuse to recognize the dark evil of anyone who violently and wilfully initiates an attack on others, even those who are Alt-Right… are acting out a dark evil behavior which must come from a heart of hate towards those who are different is sad.
I must finish getting ready for church, Friday School and worship do not get rescheduled if the pastor is late. Hey, maybe I can get ready fast enough to grab breakfast at Denny’s first. Hope so.
Ended up at Coffee Club and got a waffle and eggs. Great coffee.
Worship begins in 30 minutes… Have a great day all.
Kyle,
Dear brother in Christ, I don’t doubt that you believe every word you have written.
And i see many others here comment on your words in a favorable light.
But honestly, I have a lot of problems with it.
I get it that your words portray your perspective but perspectives can be skewed, can they not?
First example:
“This is WHITE supremacy. You know, that thing that has been the mistress of western religion for centuries. It has been the bride of the culture since Native Americans were raped, pillaged, and killed. It has been Justice’s lover since black bodies were sold as property to whites and the often perverse yoke of bondage was placed around their necks. This past weekend was nothing more than this countries renewing of vows with an old devil called white supremacy.”
Sir, brother, fellow servant of our Lord, this is just not true.
And it is plainly not true.
Most of “this country” [and I guess you mean by that you are not including Blacks and Asians and Mexicans and others which according to population charts will soon put ‘white’ America in a less than majority population position] deplore the white supremacist march and movement.
And to paint most people, even if you mean just white people, as white supremacists is sinful. To paint that hate movement as our bride is also and flatly wrong.
Next:
“To me, I believe emphasizing white supremacy is important because generalizing this issue as “Racism” allows people to look away from the true issue; the racism that is boiling over in this country is largely one-sided. It is white supremacy rearing its ugly head.”
Really? Boiling over in this country? Because a few wrong headed evil people had tiki torches and marched? You are quite mistaken. No where i go do I see boiling over racism, and instead I see blacks and whites working together, living together, shopping together, eating together, going to church together, cheering at sports events together, and helping each other out in times of need.
And this:
“Black people are a traumatized people group, who live with trauma everyday of their lives from as far back as they remember. Does such trauma and racialized abuse breed racism? Yes, but that is a traumatized victim’s response; it is understandable even if it’s not justifiable”
Are there Black people who are traumatized? yes. By racist hatred and acts? Yes.
But every one? No. Most of them? No. And as someone who works with people of various races every day, more black than not, whose sister married a black man, and whose granddaughter has a black father, I know you are just blowing hyperbole, even if you don’t.
You wrote as if you are a believer in Christ, and i assume you are. So lets talk about Him for a tad. It is in Jesus that those who have been dumped on by the world can find peace despite the storms of life. It was in Jesus that black slaves found peace and hope EVEN while they were enduring slavery, oppression, rape, and lynchings. And when they were traumatized, and they were, it was in Jesus they found strength and unity and the overcoming of the trauma. It was in Jesus they lived victorious lives. It was in Jesus and in Him alone they overcame the fear that their culture sought to inflict on them.
But you are not living in those times. Black people as a whole are not being raped by whites, they are not being lynched by whites. They are not being enslaved by whites. They are, as a whole, not being beaten by whites. if anything, the truth is, that black people are raping their own, murdering their own and oppressing their own much more than what others are doing to them.
So Kyle, I agree with you that Black folk are not in any way responsible for the sinful thoughts and deeds of white nationalists or white racists. And those people I condemn because they are sinning against God and against man. And if i had to, and have the opportunity to do so, I would gladly take a beating from them to protect you. They are wrong and sinful.
But it is wrong of you to write your piece as if it reflects the reality of life today when it does not.
Most whites are colorblind. Most whites abhor racism and especially the white nationalist movement. So let me close by asking you a question…..
Kyle, what is it that you want white Christians to do to ease and mitigate the abhorrent actions of racists and white supremacists? Because I am pretty sure that most white believers would be glad to see you and I and our brothers and sisters of all colors walk arm in arm as we sing praises to Jesus by our words and deeds.
Perfect, Mike White!! I think that’s all I am allowed to say. The “freedom of speech” rules don’t extend far in this group. But, that’s okay. It’s their selected group. I have my own on other sites. Got a note from Carsob today that polled 1128 people who 52% thought words were not strong enough to denounce KKK groups by the President, but 62% thought the statues in this country should remain. That’s odd, isn’t it. No wonder our leadership is confused.