Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is — His good, pleasing and perfect will. — Romans 12:2
I always wanted to sing, but never had any confidence in my voice, nor did I ever learn to read music. Still, that didn’t discourage me from joining the First Baptist Church youth choir. The summer trips were great; the youth musicals inspiring, the snack suppers worth the effort. The choir sounded great too, but I can take no credit for that. I did not want to be heard, so I kept my voice so low it couldn’t have added much,
If I got a little too loud in practice and Mr. Shadle would hear a bass off key, he would silence all the tenors, altos and sopranos and ask the bass guys to sing alone, walking back and forth in front of us, leaning in with a hand cupped over his ear. He never found me; I would just mouth the words as he approached and let the other guys carry the weight for all the sound. I made the choice to have no voice. I didn’t contribute much to the singing and, because I was hiding, I never got the instruction Mr. Shadle might have given me, so I really still can’t sing on key . . . at least not on purpose.
When it comes to the chorus of sexual chaos into which this current generation is falling, I think a lot of Christians have made the choice to have no voice, opting to let others carry the tune. Many Christians are choosing cowardice over courage; callousness over compassion; indifference over love; comfort in ignorance over strength in truth.
What are we afraid of?
Recent headlines paint a picture of a nation obsessed with sex, not in the way of the google-eyed fraternity beer-boys in weekend football commercials, but in a disastrous dead-end way diminishing individuals and dealing death. Indeed, we’re beginning to see life basically defined by sexual identity, a dwindling down of self-worth that leads to division and judgment . . . and endless pain. And Christians, if they’re not just sitting it out on the sidelines are too often speaking harshly and arrogantly, putting more distance between them and ones who need them. Sadly, some of the most judgmental people in public may not regularly be in church, but they often cite scripture and portray themselves as advocates of righteousness.
So, what is true? The truth is that, scripturally, any sex outside of a marriage covenant between one man and one woman for life is a sin. The truth is that Christ died for all sinners, sexual or otherwise. The truth is that people who are confused about their sexuality and think themselves gay, or people who find themselves addicted, or people who find themselves giving into temptations, having sex with the same sex, lusting after someone other than their spouse, staring at pornography on their computers, fantasizing . . . are people who, like you, were made in the image of him, and like you — and all other sheep — have gone astray.
The truth is, they are as loved by God as you are . . . and the truth is when one of them jumps off a bridge, or leaves a spouse, or hides in a closet, or moves into a dangerous and misdirected lifestyle, we should weep and pray . . . not point and parade in our own over-rated righteousness.
Maybe we’re afraid of looking tolerant, so we settle for looking ignorant instead. But . . . tolerance does not necessarily mean agreement. Being tolerant of others is not a compromise of our own beliefs, it is a demonstration that we know and understand that sin can and will wrap itself around the mind and heart and soul, and only Christ can break those bonds. We’re not privileged to know how and when He will do so, so we continue on in hope and love. If we demonstrate our conviction that a relationship with Jesus is the only way to have a relationship with God, then we need to tolerate people we disagree with and be prepared to witness to them . . . and we can do so without endorsing their ideas. If our personal convictions are true and strong, they are not endangered.
When it comes to sex, we don’t much teach and we don’t much preach. And we certainly don’t reach, as in out. While our pews on Sunday have their share of pornography addicts and same-sex strugglers, rare is the church where any effort is made at all to provide a safe place for confession, accountability and repentance. To most of the sexually-broken, church looks more dangerous than a dark corner in a Mafia-run Mexican village. Our message is simple: “Just don’t. And if you already do, don’t tell us.” We have some “don’ts” who will and will never look for help. We have some “already do’s” who would die before revealing. And some of them are dying inside within easy reach of the light.
Are we obsessing about sex? Consider these recent events:
A judge declared that “Don’t Ask-Don’t Tell” should not be enforced in the military, no matter what the military itself or the American people think.
Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre, who is married, is accused of sending sexual messages and naked photos to a female sports reporter and other women.
Bishop Eddie Long, leader of a 25,000-member megachurch in Atlanta, faces accusations of sexual coercion from four men, former parishioners.
The U.S. Supreme Court is hearing a free speech case against Westboro Baptist Church, an independent “church” group that protests outside military funerals with signs that say “God Hates Fags.”
A judge overturned California’s Proposition 8, which banned gay marriage, and Attorney General Jerry Brown declined to appeal, despite the will of the people having already been expressed at the ballot box.
New York Gubernatorial Candidate Carl Paladino is declared homophobic by his opponent for saying that children should not be “brainwashed into thinking that homosexuality is an equally valid and successful option.”
At least five teenagers across the country recently committed suicide after being taunted as allegedly gay. One young man in my own hometown of Norman allegedly went home after a public City Council meeting recently where an ordinance to celebrate GLBT month was debated and he shot himself in the head. The remarks made at the meeting were demeaning and callous, with no regard for who might be harmed by the painful condemnation.
Authorities arrested 10 people in the Bronx, N.Y., in connection with the brutal assault of two teens and an adult who police say were tortured for being gay.
Porn filming has been put on hold because a major porn “star” is infected with the HIV virus. According to Family Safe Media, a new porn film is shot every 39 minutes in the United States alone, and more than 50% of Christians report that pornography is a significant problem in their homes.
Teen pregnancy and sexually-transmitted disease rates continue to rise. Statistics show that more than 60% of teens have had intercourse before high school graduation. Genital herpes in lab tests have been increasing steadily, at an alarming rate.
The U.S. Customs Service reports there are more than 100,000 Internet sites offering child pornography.
Scan the Internet and you will find countless more headlines about sex. And while the bullying of the gay teens has brought that particular issue to the forefront and created a sense of sensitivity, the underlying issue is the fact that the church has ceded sexuality to culture. Christians may not condone what once would have been considered a sexual revolution, but has now become our sexualized reality . . . but we are accomplices in our silence, from the pulpit, in our homes, in our own lives. We’re not adequately putting forth an alternative for those who are trying to find their identity through sex. And we’re not showing grace to those who have fallen into one of Satan’s most attractive traps. We leave them thirsting, we scrimp on forgiveness, we withhold entry on the only path to redemption because, why? We’re afraid we’ll get tainted? Misunderstood? Labeled as either tolerant or intolerant or as moral bigots? What tender hearts we have become toward ourselves, even as we have hardened our hearts toward others. Surely we cannot be satisfied to let Ellen and Oprah handle this. Let’s not assuage our guilty feelings by watching coverage of candlelight vigils for the ones who took their own lives in despair, not when we are called to be the light.
Woe is me is not an expression of faith.
Too many Christians gather together to lament the fact that the world — somewhere out there — is going to hell in a hand-basket. We shake our heads back and forth with pained expressions, declaring the sexual perversion of the modern day must be a sign of the end times. For some, sexual brokenness may well usher in their personal end time, as they find themselves drowning in sexual addictions down the street from the sanctuary door. If we really believe the end is near, should we not be working ever harder to take them with us?
Truth Should Trump Tradition
Some Christians have ingrained Leviticus 18:22 so deeply into their spiritual psyches that they cannot find any room to combine it with the slightest vision of love and grace and forgiveness and healing. Dismissing the sexually broken homosexual with a lifted chin and the word abomination, they live in a world dominated by their memories of “Daddy says all homos go to hell” and that settles it. Why can’t they reach out to the ones they would so easily condemn and quote 1 Corinthians 6:11? “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Toss the Winnie the Pooh Routine
There’s too much head-scratching “What’s a bear to do?” and not enough “I love you.” Why do we find it so difficult to love someone who struggles with sex? If we show love, we open doors. If we open doors, we enter lives. If we enter lives, we have a chance to speak the truth of God’s grace to heal and restore all of the broken. Why do we determine that some brokenness is beneath us and beyond God? There’s too much hand-wringing and too little hand-folding; too much pointing and too little praying. And, when we pray about something, should we not also ask God what He might want us to do about it? As in “do.”
Quit Hiding Behind the Smokescreen of Indoctrination
We so often point fingers at the media, the entertainment industry, educators, liberal lawmakers, college campuses and say they are indoctrinating our youth. Why are our youth not already indoctrinated with the doctrines of our beliefs? Why are they so easily taken down in cultural challenges? We make jokes about having “the talk” with our children and yet, by the time some parents get around to it, the child has moved beyond the talk . . . to the touch.
We are too silent.
We have forgotten that a life lived well is a demonstration stronger than any indoctrination. We have forgotten that personal demonstration day-to-day has greater influence than parades on Pride Day. We have forgotten that we are to love our neighbor. We have forgotten that it is that very love by which we are to be identified.
If we are Christians and we are not hurting for others because of what we see, then we have allowed the influence of culture to make us indifferent. If we are hurting, and we are doing nothing, we have allowed culture to make us impotent.
How much longer will we pretend to be a mighty choir, but only mouth the words?
It may be that your church is an exception to the rule when it comes to providing a biblical, truthful and compassionate response to the sexually-broken. If that is so, I hope you will leave a comment below to serve as an encouragement for other Christians to step forward and stand with no rocks in their hands, as Christ would.
What programs does your church have in place to help the sexually-broken? Who in your church has been trained to counsel the boy or girl, man or woman, who struggles with homosexual temptation to help them find support? What are the materials and where is the support for the porn-addicted Christians in your church? What is your church’s position on restoring an adulterer? Who will you go to at your church for counseling if your son or daughter says “I’m gay?” And, are you ready if your brother in Christ comes to you and says he is struggling with sexual addiction and needs your help?
Wait. Is that silence?
Great post! You said things that people definitely need to hear. Right now our society is focused on gay people but even on a good Sunday, you don’t have that many gay people in your congregation; however, you do have a lot of adulterers and fornicators. We’re giving them a free pass while we condemn gay people to Hell or a life of castigation and rejection. Thank God our younger generation is a bit more understanding and forgiving.
Even sadder than some hidden attitudes are the openly bigoted attitudes of some Baptist churches and preachers. If a church dares to come out and say they are open to gay people then they get kicked out of some useless convention. Where in the world do you think gay people are supposed to go to church???? And contrary to what some think, there are saved gay people in America.
A while back I was sitting with a group of about 8 Southern Baptist pastors and one said, “I can spot a faggot in 10 seconds. There sure won’t ever be any around me.” And he’s pastor of one of the biggest churches in Dallas. Usually a pastor will preach the most about his greatest weakness or attack with vehemence the one thing that tempts him the most. I’ll leave the rest to your own conclusions.
We can argue all we want about whether a gay person chooses to be gay or is born that way but the issue here in how do we deal with our Christian brothers and sisters. Maybe its time to take a long serious look in the mirror to see how we’re doing.
I witnessed this myself: my Senior Minister berated gays when were were in San Francisco to distract from his hidden trips to Charleston, SC, to live the gay lifestyle undetected for many years.
His wife finally contronted it. He left his church and became a social worker in Charlotte, NC. He died tragicly of AIDS some 10+ years ago.
If they are “too much” in criticism, it might just be a cover for hidden sin. This is especially true of those who comment without it being a subject matter at the moment. Technically, it is called “Reaction-Formation Psychosis” = they fool themselves and try to fool others with an extravagant show of the exact opposite of what is going on inside their head.
Jonah,
The comment form that church pastor is very painful to hear, although I have heard similar sentiments from other pastors. Many times they just don’t realize who is listening and who they may be hurting. If not the actual hearer, then perhaps someone he loves who struggles. We wonder why a person with a sexual issue often will not confess it to church leadership and seek help with repentance. Believe me, the self-condemnation the person already buries is difficult enough without voluntarily seeking magnification of it.
We have to learn how to speak truth with compassion . . . and not act like we’ve been dragged to the dentist when we have to do it.
You’ve articulated your thoughts very well here. Thank you for the time and effort you’ve exerted to share your opinion this important, crucial matter.
As insightful, appropriate, constructive, and needful a post as I’ve ever seen. And you have no idea how timely it is, as respects another blog on which I’ve been debating the issue for the past 2 days.
Thom—
So well said! In short, we are hiding our heads in the sand and few parents are showing their children how to deal with then hormones flowing in their youthful bodies–much less having an open door to discuss important sexual matters.
Hannah Montana is one poor role model for lusting teens!!
There is another one even more serious: Human Trafficking!!!
In eastern NC Pitt County (East Carolina University’s home) has just gotten a Federal Grant to investigate it. They are finding too much too fast. The core of it is enticing foreign women and girls to come for a “good paying job.” When she gets in the car of her handler, her passport and other papers are taken and she gets out at a trailer or rental house in rural eastern NC to take care of men standing at the door for sex—some are a young a 7-8!!!
Talk about perversion–this is Sodom and Gimorrah on steroids!! It is certainly happening in large cities, but in the country!!!
The worse thing is that many of those men are your men sitting in the pews on Sunday somewhere–women are included as well.
If we neglect to cite this moral problem from the pulpit and encourage law enforcement to deal with it, it is our own fault through the sin of omission. Further, it is so deeply hidden it goes on for years before being caught. Trafficked women who can’t speak English and have no papers are easy to keep hidden through total fear and intimidation.
The wise person who cares might consider riding into trailer parks at night to look for a bunch of men standing around. Ride through the low rent district and look for the same. Police, by and large, don’t know right now how wide-spread it is. Our rising drug and crime rate in a failed economy is keeping them more than busy with traditional matters of Law Enforcement.
Thanks for the post. Let’s get busy getting our heads out of the sand!!!!
Gene,
You are right about human trafficking. It seems so unreal that it is an easy one to ignore. However, living just south of Oklahoma City, as I do, the problem is painfully obvious. We’re the crossroads for I-35 and I-40 and, just like with the drug trade, the trafficking in young girls and even boys is a major problem here. Fortunately, the news media is finally making it difficult to ignore.
Obviously, it is evidence of the breakdown of the family structure, a condition the church is in the best position to address.
Our problems are just a symptom of EXACTLY what you say:
*Healthy families don’t drive people to smut who love one another.
*Caring parents usually catch that dirty magazine hidden under the bed.
*All humans’ eye gets attracted to naked bodies here
*Interestingly, people who live in such naked cultures are immune to that level of depravity, but soon find another just as bad
*God created us for better and more noble things on this earth
When I was the SBC Chaplain to the Wake County Juvenile Court in 1968-70 the worst I saw was uncontrolled behaviour or stealing. Now our courts are seeing children brought in for Prostitution.
Fortunately, many are recognizing that the child or adult was forced into it and they go after the profiteer from such corruption. They try to help them get out of slavery over putting them into just another prison. Here the church could definitely assist the used person.
How many of you pastors would be willing to have a class in your church for gay teenagers or teenagers who are struggling with the issue? Now that would be a great step to restoring Biblical truth to this issue.
i wonder if it would be good to have a “gay class” in church. Wouldn’t it be better to help them to understand that while we do not approve of sin, we welcome them in the group at large?
Don’t really know. Just wondering.
I think the issue is that if people have a desire to change, what they are looking for is assurance that they can do so and the help of Christians who follow God’s Word seriously and are willing to help them. Most people who are seeking change don’t want to be labeled or identified or separated out.
What I believe churches really need is to have some people in the membership who are able to look beyond the sexual struggler’s sin and provide a place for confession and accountability. These need to be people who are honest and not joking about homosexuality on Friday and being all open on Sunday.
There’s no need to water down the truth. There are many places people can go for a shallow acceptance based on overlooking things. Christians should be equipped to confront in compassion and accompany through healing.
I have yet to be able to share in a church openly about what I went through and how Christ delivered me, other than in my own Connection Group (Sunday School) class at First Southern-Del City. Yet I know there are people in our churches everywhere going through the struggle that once consumed me.
“”I have yet to be able to share in a church openly””
Thank you. I don’t really see the value in parading the seediness of our lives before others. Many times I’ve heard testimonies that are almost glamorizing sin instead of glorifying the Savior.
I know in my own life, there is much that has been covered by Christ’s blood and “forgotten by God” (Psalm 103:11-12). I’m trying to forget them, too.
Frank and Larry,
By not sharing, I meant that I have not been able to share with churches how they can help strugglers overcome and how they can help people minister to strugglers in their own family. In that, there is great value. I would never glamorize the sin; it was to costly.
I think most people who find freedom from a sexual struggle have no need to share it with anyone, but instead to be thankful they have been delivered and set about to repair the damage they might have done. However, I do believe that God calls some to be transparent enough to offer hope to others about His redemption and restoration of the repentant.
“”I do believe that God calls some to be transparent enough to offer hope to others about His redemption and restoration of the repentant.””
I don’t disagree with this but think it has more legitamacy in a one on one counseling session rather than a Sunday School or Small Group — in my opinion.
The problem with this as I see it is that we must balance our “love” for others with our responsibility to “contend for the faith.”
How “welcoming” can we be if someone is persistent in rebellion? In my experience, someone that is living in sin can never feel “welcome” in the Presence of the Holy. I don’t think we as Christians can be more tolerant of sinners than God was, while certainly we should be AS tolerant as God is.
It is not an easy path to navigate.
It’s that “balance” that we should be striving for. I think we have been a bit out of kilter on it, particularly since people in our congregations are dealing with whether we help them or not. They may not struggle themselves, but they know someone who does . . . a sister, a son, a cousin, an uncle or even a father . . . and we leave them to fend for themselves or to explore culture’s suggestions on how they should respond.
Precisely because it is not an easy path, we tend to just avoid it.
“”How many of you pastors would be willing to have a class in your church for gay teenagers or teenagers who are struggling with the issue?””
Most of the churches I know of have had these classes for years: it’s called Bible Study or Sunday School.
Unfortunately, we have such a propensity as Christians to “categorize” sin that we see the Bible as a “counseling guide,” instead of the Living, Breathing, Life-transforming Word of God.
There is no sin that cannot be overcome by surrender to the Word of God. If we start having a class for every sin — even every sexual sin — most churches won’t have enough classrooms to accomdate.
The antidote for sin is not to discuss sin, but to discuss the Savior. I’ve been on forums to discuss the “issue” of homosexuality and it was ineffective. It sets up a situation where the Bible is discussed as part of the solution, but not as “The Solution.”
I agree. What we need to do is treat sin as sin, without hierarchy. We believe in the Word of God and the ability of our Savior. He doesn’t ask us to separate ourselves based on sins; He asks us to confess and repent and walk with each other in love.
Good ideas guys but somewhere the church isn’t ministering to these kids. Not sure how I would fix it but sure like to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Jonah,
I can tell your heart is in the right place. I think the young people who struggle with sexuality just need to be able to worship in an environment that does not treat them like they have the plague. They watch how we as Christians treat people who publicly have the issue they face . . . and this causes them to internalize it and hide it because they fear rejection. We know what happens when sin is kept secret. It hardens its grip.
I think not just our young people, but all of our people need to know that we will approach them with a listener’s heart and seek the application of God’s Word to the problem. They don’t trust us at this point to do that because we are so silent on the issue.
Way back in the early 70’s I served 2 different churches as Minister to Youth. In both groups there was a gay guy. In the first it was well known and the kids just let him be his gay self. In the second, no gayness was detectable, but when he went to college it came out.
In the second case, my young man met a Catholic Priest who told him it was OK and he would show him how! I would hate to be in his shoes when he meets God, but my confused youth came to visit in the next church I was now pastoring. I still have correspondence in my file from “Joe.”
I tried to explain what I have found out:
1) Gay boys tend to have a domineering mothers = true both cases
2) Just because you have thoughts, you don’t have to act on them
3) Work at being normal and your brain will produce hormones more in that direction–it is a psychosomatic thing well-documented
4) The sexual urge is just as strong as eating / defacating / breathing / sleeping, but use of it every day isn’t necessary to life
He got in touch with me last year over facebook at his desire. It is almost 40 years later and he is gay and has a partner. If it has to be, make it a situation where he is not seducing as he was seduced in his youth.
If I want to help him further, it will be through accepting him as the person he is–and rejoice he doesn’t have to hide it from me. He trusts me and will continue to talk with me.
Understand something: being gay has both a hormonal cause and an enrivonmental cause, in my opinion. Medical proof is coming in now which indicates what I suspected as a college Psychology graduate.
Our real problem is just too much sexuality and not enough rationality. The problem is worsening as too many marriages end in divorce so children have little close exposure to both parents living together as role models = BOTH ARE NEEDED. Something as simple as food additives (hormones put into meats) could be a cause!
I would rather deal with an openly gay person than one in hiding. You can help someone admitting to their sexual orientation and, hopefully, help them find what God made them–be it straight or gay.
Remember this also: Jesus lived in the same world we do–homosexuals and all. He said NOTHING straight up on the issue and that indicates to me he did not consider it as dangerous as being a Pharisee = too much religion and desire to control.
The book is still out on this one. Hopefully, if nothing else, science will find some therapy to help gay people be normal, if they want. It has certainly found chemical ways to help a person achieve opposide sex looks.
Just be more like Christ and less like the Jews who made the biblical condemntion of homosexuals. Jesus just didn’t do it and that is my guide in every area of life.
“”Medical proof is coming in now which indicates what I suspected as a college Psychology graduate.””
No such proof has ever come out. The so-called “proof” is based upon shoddy science and typical psyco-babble.
“”If I want to help him further, it will be through accepting him as the person he is””
Thank God He never accepted me as “I was.” To me, you have just surrendered your friend to a life of bondage to sin.
We need more pastors like you for sure.
The Church has a long way to go to find itself able to respond. as Christ Himself would respond, to people ‘who are different’ among us. But, in time, we will become better Christian people for realizing that it is US Christ has to change first:
because of our pride, because of our know-it-all attitudes, because of our ignorance, because of our inability to show Christian compassion in a way that REALLY helps, especially those young people who may be in danger of committing suicide because of their painful treatment at our hands.
May God have mercy on us all, and lead us into the Light of Christ, where we will know how to be what we cannot now be on our own.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/laity/always.shtml
The problem, Christiane, is not just about how to deal with people who are different (racial issues, etc) but people who are struggling with sin and temptation.
The attitude you display, that homosexuality is just a difference we should accept is part of the problem.
The hard balancing act is to confront sin and welcome people at the same time.
It is indeed a hard balancing act. To SBC’s credit, the Task Force on Gender Issues, headed by Bob Stith, a retired SBC pastor, has worked hard to put together useful and Biblically-correct materials and makes them available to churches. Anyone interested can go to http://www.sbcthewayout.com.
Bob speaks to churches. I know he recently spoke to several in Mississippi and is available. I would be also if anyone is interested.
“The attitude you display, that homosexuality is just a difference we should accept is part of the problem.”
Problem is, DAVE, that we are ALL struggling with sin and temptation. That is why I wrote: ‘May God have mercy on us ALL . . . ‘ and rejecting sin is not the same as rejecting sinners.
For my faith, the ‘sin’ of PRACTICING homosexual activity is identified separately from the PERSON who may see themselves and identify themselves as homosexual people. That is why we can offer sanctuary as a Church for these people who are our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters, who struggle with temptation as we all do. Because they are more vulnerable in one way does not make them any less loved or needed or valued in a real Christian community.
David, I’m not sure how it must work for a Christian community that sees homosexuality itself as a ‘choice’, but there is so much pain and suffering among the young who are confused about their sexual identity, that I hope sincerely that ALL Christian communities will be led to re-evaluate how they are approaching these suffering people.
Believe me, the Church has some soul-searching to do in this work, because the numbers of suicides are rising among the young.
If that is not a red light, I don’t what is.
It is unloving and destructive to treat those who struggle with homosexual temptation as outcasts or pariahs.
It is unloving and destructive to treat homosexuality as a healthy, normal lifestyle.
Sin destroys. So, we have to figure out a way to hold the line in opposition to a life-destroying sin, while also figuring out a way to NOT treat those who struggle with this sin in an unloving way.
That’s what I appreciate about Thom’s writings. He does not seek to rationalize sin or ignore it. He seeks ways for the church to minister to people without compromising truth.
Tough balancing act.
“It is unloving and destructive to treat homosexuality as a healthy, normal lifestyle.”
I haven’t done that, David. It’s the ‘practice’ of homosexual ACTIVITY that is considered against the natural law of God in my religion.
”’the numbers of suicides are rising among the young.””
And most have nothing to do with homosexuality.
“The hard balancing act is to confront sin and welcome people at the same time.”
Exactly! Those of us who work in the real world, work with homosexuals, athiests, Buddhists, Witches (seriously..the new age types), porn addicts, etc, every day. I have worked with the above descriptions in various training projects over the years. They are people who are lost. Most of those I mention above are quite likable as individuals and most all very good at what they do.
The biggest problem I ran into was one very nice homosexual who had adopted a child with his ‘partner”. His child was about the same age as my child and he wanted to schedule play dates. How would I explain daddy joe and daddy bob, which is what they were called by their child.
I even attended a “wiccan” wedding of a colleague not knowing that is what it was going to be! They had a “shaman”, a white witch and some other new age guy there and the wedding was in Winthrop’s Mansion near Ipswitch. Talk about eerie. But at the reception, her Catholic relatives were all in tears over it. It was more like funeral at that beautiful and costly reception.
This is the sort of thing people who work outside the ministry bubble deal with everyday. And I want to add that when these folks know you are a believer and you have accepted them as people who are to be loved and valued, they cannot hate you….as an individual christian even though they might hate christians as a group. The key is letting them know what you believe and why and encouraging them to seek out truth in the NT scriptures…perferably the book of John. And pray that a seed was planted. And some Apollos will water it.
I am not sure someone who has always operated inside the ministry bubble (seminary>church) can equip folks to operate in that world. Sorry if I offend, but that is my opinion. I hope it will give some food for thought on this topic.
Lydia,
I don’t think what you said is offensive. It just points out how far we have to go. Yes, there are ministries outside the church that deal with these issues, but they are very limited. For instance, in Oklahoma City, we have First Stone Ministries, affiliated with Exodus International, on which, by the way, SBC has a board member in Bob Stith. First Stone has to serve the entire state with a staff of about four people plus volunteers. Arkansas and many other states have no local Exodus ministries. We have churches everywhere.
Christians often do not feel comfortable going to an outside ministry for help . . . and many pastors are not familiar enough with what is available to make a solid and safe recommendation.
We need to remember that we are basically talking, for the most part, about people who want to change, not the gay activists who are trying to promote the lifestyle. We’re talking about broken-hearted people who feel torn between their beliefs and their sexual oriantation and truly do want help.
I think most people have a “TV” picture of homosexuality (eg. “Will and Grace.”). That is not typical of the culture at large. Most homosexuals have multiple partners (from 100’s to 1000’s) in a life-time. The lifestyle itself is destructive (just take a quick google of diseases prevalent in the homosexual community).
In my experience (having ministered many years in the San Francisco Area) is that the gay on the street is much different than the activists presented on TV.
You see the same disconnect with Beer Commercials. They make drinking look glamorous. There is a totally different picture when you move from the Big Screen to Skid Row — where I also ministered for many years.
I’m just not certain that many people in our nation have a clear and accurate picture of just how destructive the homosexual lifestyle can be. The sexual practices alone would make many people sick if they actually knew what often takes place.
Frank and Larry,
What you have said is certainly true. Homosexuality, like adultery, has been glamorized and the false face is overwhelming.
There are many men and women, however, who could be prevented from ever entering that lifestyle if we invested more of ourselves into their lives during the confusing times when they are considering or fearing themselves to be homosexual. And, there are men and women who, once having experienced it and seeing that it does not and never will satisfy, seek a way out. We should offer it. We know Christ.
We should not look on their sins, even at the worst, and declare them beyond redemption and take away the only hope that remains when they have sold themselves out to sin and given themselves away to others. Christ came for all of us and with His love, we can rescue.
‘We’ look at ‘their’ sins. Something about that phrase doesn’t work, does it ?
“”We should not look on their sins, even at the worst, and declare them beyond redemption and take away the only hope””
Thom, I agree wholeheartedly. My concern is that we do not further confuse people by not speaking plainly to them about what God’s view of the matter is. I think you agree with that.
You are certainly right that we should be super sensitive to the fact that we live in a “sexed-up society” and early intervention preaching the truth in love — often — is the better part of valor in this war.
I just don’t think when we see a person drowning we should enter into a “counseling session.” We need to throw the life preserver which is the clear, concise presentation of the truth.
I think we’re totally in agreement on this point: truth, but with compassion so there can at least be a reasonable likelihood that they will trust us enough to hear it. And they will trust us if we will allow ourselves to treat them as people made in the image of God, just as we are . . . not as lesser beings, but as people who have gone astray, just as we perhaps have at times and on other ways. Tell them what the Bible says and help them conform.
“Most homosexuals have multiple partners (from 100?s to 1000?s) in a life-time.”
That there is some James Dobson-speak. Most homosexuals have multiple partners in a lifetime. That’s true. It’s also true that most heterosexuals have multiple partners in a lifetime. Given the divorce rate among Christians, that fact is not hard to prove.
But you won’t find a scientific study that shows that *most* homosexuals have between 100s and 1000s of partners in a lifetime. That’s Wilt Chamberlin kinda numbers and really presents a negative and inaccurate image of the average homosexual as an out-of-control sex fiend.
Additionally, I think you might agree, Frank and Larry, that being gay in The Castro is likely a very different experience than being gay in Waco, Texas.
Hello all,
Great article time and timely in its delivery and message, Thom. I think awareness is always good…IF it leads to action on the part of those motivated.
While there are many different views in this world on homosexuality, the ones presented here seem to homogeneous in their stance and delivery towards gay people and the churches past and current response to these very real and human people.
I had a few questions for the other persons who have left comments, as well as those who will read this without adding dialogue.
“Do any of you know any gay people? Do you know the gay people in your church? Do you have any gay people in your family? Is there a real human face and person associated with your beliefs and theories, or is this all some type of hypothetical exercise for Christians?”
I only ask, because each position and doctrine I have seen from most mainline churches dehumanized the very persons we are speaking of. It becomes a “condition” or “brokeness” not a name and a face of someone we know and care about.
Until we see other people as Jesus saw them, (And seeing the multitudes he was moved with compassion…)without the distinct lines of separation that do not exist in reality besides the constructs of religious and social groups, we will never be able to reach out to those in desperate need of salvation and a personal relationship with God.
Daemon
At age 64—I know them / I do not pry into their lives / their names and faces get no instant contempt from me / I took the NC Baptist State Convention before the Secretary of State for kicking out a congregation ministering to homosexuals in Concore, NC, late 90’s.
This situation was over installing a Financial Policy which clearly states that churches ministering to homosexuals will not have their CP gifts accepted = you are kicked out!
At the same time the Constitution and By-laws stated the standard statement on Autonomy = “no Baptist entity tells another what to do or not do. Only the local church can decide to leave the BSC. They do not have the right to kick anyone out who wants to give (loosely worded).”
In NC these concepts gave the church property to the group with decided not to leave the NCBSC and N. Roanoke Association. It was tried to the State Supreme Court level and is a precedent-setting case in NC. It defines legally for NC “who the real Southern Baptist church is.”
“”At the same time the Constitution and By-laws stated the standard statement on Autonomy = “no Baptist entity tells another what to do or not do. Only the local church can decide to leave the BSC.””
Withdrawing funds or refusing to accept money from another entity does not equate to “telling an autonomous body what to do.” It just means one entity does not want to be partners with another entity — that’s autonomy. It goes both ways.
“”That there is some James Dobson-speak.”
Typical ad hominem argument. Many studies have shown, and my personal contact with the homosexual community over the last 25 plus years gives me confidence in the studies that show homosexuals as a group are far more promiscuous than heterosexuals as a group. But, your welcome to your opinion.
It is odd that on most matters, facts matter to you, but in this matter, anecdotal evidence and opinion seem to matter. I guess you can legitimately argue “most” is too broad a word, and I’ll concede. However, multiple partners are the goal of *many* in the homosexual community. Other than Chamberlain, this is not a goal of most the heterosexuals I’ve known. What I am saying is that if you read the literature–like that you can pick up on a sidewalk newstand in San Francisco, you will see very clearly that “multiple partners” are part of the excitement of the homosexual lifestyle, whereas in the heterosexual community I would say multiple partners are a consequence of the lifestyle. This may seem a subtle difference for someone who has not ministered to and among the homosexual community for three decades.
You also did not respond to the part of my post that outlines the many medical issues that impact negatively on the homosexual community (to a far greater degree than the homosexual community). To be delicate about a not so delicate matter: “the body is made up of many members and not all members have the same function.” Some parts of the human anatomy are not intended for how they are *COMMONLY* used in the homosexual community.
I’ll stand behind my thesis: homosexual behavior is negative and destructive emotionally, physically, and certainly spiritually.
In regard to the homosexual community in Waco versus San Francisco, I’m sure that there are some nuances, but the basic destructive nature of homosexual behavior remains.
“I’ll stand behind my thesis: homosexual behavior is negative and destructive emotionally, physically, and certainly spiritually.”
All the more reason to save as many people from it. There are young people in every congregation who are wrestling with sexual identity . . . and some of them will end up on Castro St.
Or in Provincetown, Mass, or Fire Island N.Y., Key West, Galvaston etc. But , Gays in these areas are different for all the same reasons everybody else is in different – age, background, looks and location. Gays, male and female are everywhere and plentiful. Generally congregate together within their circles where they are comfortable and “flirt” outside that group probably more than heterosexuals. I could type almost all night with funny and sad as they feel just as we do. But some are mean and have no scrupples and will chase a child with an almost unstoppable impulse. I’ll make two separate statements not to convince anybody but it is what I believe. First, if God made anything better than sex he must have kept it in heaven. Sex shouldn’t be “home entertainment” and promiscuity is wrong; but if you don’t have a string of cutting horses—. It’s physically available for all no matter who or what. Second, I believe that some homosexuals are born with the tendencies and others are converted or brought into the group. A divorced women with a few children that cannot make ends meet can be a prime target. Mind you the “butch” side of this can have every personality trait that his corresponding heterosexual has and practices it and can be agressive. While I can get along in most enviorments with them Church is a different deal. I’m probably off track with the subject of this Blog and whoever is running this blog can delete this quick.
1 Peter 3:12-22 (King James Version)
12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
DLG, please email me at pastordave@cableone.net
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
I’m no formal student of the scriptures but the Bible does say the homosexual act is an abomination. It does not say we should Hate them mentally or physically as has caused the creation of Federal Hate Crime Laws to take to task those that “break, stab or mutilate” them for whatever reason. It’s probably the exception rather than the rule to be able to say there is no relative of ours caught up in this situation and some have made heroic efforts indivigually to change. I don’t know how the medical community including mental health deals if asked with either controlling or remedying the problem. Church is a captive audience with established moral values. Homosexuals are sometimes obviously in contention just with a glance with two tegether or worse with a “family” and I’m uncomfortable with it more for the children involved and then others in church that are having anxiety attacks or “falling out”. One guy came into a sanctuary with his hair dyed red and sat down front where he effectively broke up the service and he knew it. If the pastor had stopped and given him a bag to put over his head everybody would have been more at ease. I think we as Christians have a responsibility to deal singularly with a person who wants help and in doing so exposes the church to temper tantrums by the “other half” who’s being alienated. But it takes a special group of people to extend a caring enviorment to this person ( and give him/her a paper bag) If the person wants to help him/herself it will show and most congregations will aid the effort I believe. Funny stories don’t fit here as you’re playing with someones life in which suicide can result. A pastor has to be connected and in control for this to work. [IN MY HUMBLE OPINION]
JESUS SAYS—NOTHING!!!
Paul says—-SOMETHING. Therefore, since what Paul wrote in equal in authority to what Jesus said because what Paul wrote were GOD’S EXACT WORDS then it wasn’t just Paul speaking it was GOD SPEAKING**. Therefore, God the Father, the first person of the Trinity, declares in the New Testament that homosexuality is a sin.
Suck it up and deal with it. Also, you might want to go out and rent a clue so you could pretend to have sense and realize there are several logical reasonsTEXT why we don’t have a record of Jesus saying anything about homosexuality.
**And just in case my obvious attempt to marginalize anyone who denies inerrancy and inspiration of scripture goes unoticed, what I am saying is if you deny inerrancy and inspiration you are not a Christian. “Those doctrines are not salvific” you whine? True, they are not salvific, but there is no one who is truly saved who denies those doctrines. So, they don’t cause you to not be saved, but those who deny that doctrine have in common the fact that they also deny other key elements of the gospel and are, therefore, not saved.
Paul is indeed clear and homosexuality is indeed a sin, like so many other things people do both before salvation and after as they grow in Christ and pursue holiness, which is a continuing process. And I’m so thankful, that since homosexuality is a sin, Jesus Christ paid the price for it so those who are saved can confess and repent of it and be redeemed and restored.
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” — 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
“And that is what some of you were.” That’s the message of hope we need to share with the sexually broken who want to be free.
And I’m so thankful, that since homosexuality is a sin, Jesus Christ paid the price for it so those who are saved can confess and repent of it and be redeemed and restored.
Without any doubt. There is no sin that Christ can’t forgive (addiction to porn, adultery, homosexuality, lying, bitterness) if a person confesses their sin and truly repents of it.
Guys, lets address Thom’s post.
If we want to carry on the inerrancy debate, the “Moderate’s Playground” is the place to do that.
Dave,
I do see your point, and I am sorry for contributing to thread drift. However, when someone makes a comment like Gene made in #49 (Jesus said…nothing) I can’t sit and that let go unanswered. In my book, that would be like someone coming into my house and saying something disgusting to my wife or my children.
Joe–
Another gross overstatement!!!!
“One guy came into a sanctuary with his hair dyed red and sat down front where he effectively broke up the service and he knew it. If the pastor had stopped and given him a bag to put over his head everybody would have been more at ease.”
Imagine: people welcome him after the service and invite him to come back . . . ‘then EVERYBODY would have been more at peace’
Then, if the man had come there to ‘disrupt’, he would have stirred people to action, but not the action of ‘this world’, but of another
When people come to a Church to ‘lift up their hearts to the Lord’, they will not come away from that experience completely unable to respond to those in this world who need Him, and who need them.
I forgot , “In my humble opinion” should have ended my previous.
I magically made it appear for you, Jack.
I just saw it. Thanks . You stay up late.
I’m too excited after that Yankee game to sleep. I don’t know where you live, but it ain’t THAT late out here.
While the post is about sexual sin issues in general, most of the comments have been about homosexuality alone. Granted, that’s a significant issue to me, and, as we all know, some pastors, ministry leaders, deacons and church members struggle with homosexual temptations in their personal lives or in the lives of their family members.
However, the post also dealt with what are arguably even more prevalent sexual sins within our churches: adultery and pornography addiction. We’re way too silent on those issues as well, particularly since our young people are growing up in a culture that almost glamorizes those sins. Any thoughts on that?
One big difference I see Thom between homosexuality and other sins is this: homosexuality is the only sexual sin I see with a well-greased, well-funded lobby. That may account in part for the focus on that sin more than the others.
That distinction is true. Sadly so. And it is causing a major redefinition of morality. On the other hand, pornography is so accessible and addictive, and adultery — heterosexual and homosexual — is destroying many Christian homes. We need to figure out how the church can approach these very relevant issues and stem the tide.
AMEN!!!!
A deflection, my brother!
Homosexuals who have to remain hidden to “please their religious zealot friends” is in a terrible closet quickly running out of air and light.
Thom,
I would say that we need to continually preach the gospel–not just to those who don’t know it. You and I need the gospel on a daily basis. We don’t need a class in our church on “Overcoming [insert sin here]”. What we need is to be reminded of our Savior, bloody on a cross, crushed for our sins thereby satifying the wrath of a holy God. We need to depend on Christ’s sacrifice alone as being sufficent to give us a right standing before God, not on any goodness or righteousness that dwells in us because there is none.
Please let me share a real account:
I was at Myrtle Beach when the NCBSC was in the headlines over kicking out a church outside Charlotte which did not ask questions as to the sexual preference of members. Because a few “speculated” about the orientation of some recently joined members who “appeared” to be gay, the church was on the NC chopping block and got excluded. They joined CBFNC.
I went to the Winn-Dixie near N. Myrtle Beach and stopped to smoke my pipe with an employee (male). He asked me what I thought of what was happening in NC. Is responded, “I don’t like it a bit because it is using a Financial Policy to destroy our Autonomy to minister as a local church pleases!”
With that, he opened his life to me. He said he was a Prebyterian minister’s son who found himself to be homosexual. His father disowned him!
At Myrtle Beach he had found a Baptist church in which to worship. In that church was a young Deacon who became his friend to the point he shared “his secret.” He liked the church to the point he wanted to join. This young Deacon told him, “If you go down the aisle I will ‘out’ you for being gay!” He was crushed by the rejection.
The more we talked, I realized his relationship with his “life partner” was genuine as well as his own hated homosexuality. However, the church he wanted to join and confided his secret was just waiting to kill him over something he could not help.
Rejected by a Presbyterian father / rejected by a Baptist church where he felt God’s presence / rejected by one he confided in! How much rejection can a person take in life?
I assured him God was not in the rejection business although some people were. I called a more compasionate Pastor friend of mine who had served the N. Myrtle Beach Baptist church and asked him to look him up and show him someone who was “clergy and Baptist” cared and was willing to be a friend.
So much for so-called Christians “loving the un-lovely!!!”
Thom Hunter,
I have a question for you after having read your post.
The comment above labeled as a “real account” is the subject of my question.
Does that “real account” present the biblical concept of homosexuality you would consider to be correct and does it present the methodology by which we are to minister to homosexuals, in your opinion?
CB,
I don’t doubt that it is a “real account” that Gene is sharing. It does demonstrate the harshness that some people encounter in churches. However, I think the efforts to help the young gay man fell far short of what the young deacon should have done. The deacon should have prayed with, sought counsel, shared scripture and advised the gay man not to join the church at this time because, loved as he is, he is embracing a lifestyle inconsistent with the Word of God and the principles of that church. Granted, I don’t know all the details.
The bigger issue in our churches is that fact that most of the members who struggle with homosexuality have kept it sufficiently hidden and are already members. As God works in their lives, many of them want to seek help in the struggle, but are fearful of the response. Others find themselves falling, revealing their secret and unprepared church members have a difficult time knowing how to resolve it.
When I talk about ministering to homosexuals with grace through truth and compassion, I don’t believe there is any need to skimp on the truth of God’s Word. We owe them that much. So many people’s sin issues grow in the absence of truth and become so ingrained that the sinner then demands acceptance because he has adopted an identity that was never intended.
First, we make our love for them clear. If they are not Christians, we need to try to lead them to Christ. If they become Christians, we need to help them grow and we need to pray that the Holy Spirit will work in their lives to remove the things that are unacceptable to God, just as the Spirit does in us. If they are already Christians before we become aware of their sin — acting out on sexual temptation — we help them as we would any sinner with any other sin. If there is any evidence at all of repentance, I believe we need to stand strong, be patient and bear them up, putting aside our judgment and placing confidence in God to give them strength as they work through repentance. As regards sexual sin, this is not an overnight process for most.
It is not, in the long run, compassionate to tell a Christian who considers himself or herself “gay,” that they can remain that way — as in acting out — and honor God. Just as all of us are tempted in some way and admonished to resist, they will have to do the same to lead a life that is pleasing and acceptable to God, something much more important than trying to lead a life acceptable to themselves or to us.
Some people never completely come to a place in their lives where the temptations cease, but they are able, through the grace of God, to find strength not to act out on those temptations. We should be there to celebrate that.
Love is a very demanding thing, but it restores. Rejection is often the trigger that causes the sexually-broken to act out, which destroys.
Helping someone overcome is not the same thing as affirming their lifestyle.
This was longer than I intended, but I hope you can see the distinctions.
cb—
A part of my question was answered by you above.
While I applaude you desire to help, could such real love be shown by getting out your “inerrant big Bible” and immediately clubbing him over the head with it????
I find in my ministry that a listening ear and good questions elicited more of the truth from him than letting him know right off I was a minister. His own conscience was eating him up already—and he couldn’t understand why he could not conquer his sexual identity.
Further, I called a far less judgemental friend/pastor to see if he might look him up at the Winn-Dixie and be his true and caring Christian minister.
Thom Hunter,
What I meant in asking you about the “real account” was not do you believe it actually happened. (With Gene, it is impossible to ever know truth from fiction.)
What I was asking was, would you have handled the situation as did Gene and do you agree with the theological/biblical slant that Gene has embraced. I am in specific reference to the phrase “found himself gay.” The implication there seems to indicate that the guy was “born with a homosexual orientation.”
Is your position that people are born with a homosexual orientation?
cb—
Now you are being disrespectful toward me—this ain’t the CR blog and I have show you no disrespect—-yet!!!!
Let’s just keep it on the “high ground” of mutual respect over calling each other a “liar.”
cb—
It’s a VERY real account and a “real hurt” for this man being rejected of any Baptist love from the young and arrogant Deacon.
Since you appear to be, at least, arrogant—What would you have done?????
CB —
No, I do not believe people are born with a homosexual orientation. I do know we are born into sin and grow up in a corrupted world, exposed to all forms of temptation and abuse. I believe homosexuality is outside-influenced and, like so many of our failings, because inside-embraced. That’s why I truly believe homosexuals can be healed and walk free enough of the temptation to resist it and not act out.
I would not have rejected the young man, running the rick of separating him from those who know and share the truth. I would have made an effort to lead him to someone who is called and equipped to minister to men and women snared in the sin of homosexuality. Had he resisted, I would have fervently prayed for him and remained in reach for the inevitable painful times ahead. I don’t believe my prayers would have gone unanswered.
We must be more than just sympathetic friends to homosexuals. We need to tell them the truth, share resources based on God’s Word, and practice patience through their repentance.
As for those who are not seeking to leave the lifestyle at all? I think we are to demonstrate God’s love towards them. Christ died for the ungodly and gave up His life for us while we were still sinning.
Thom Hunter,
Thanks. It may mean nothing to you as to what I think and that is OK.
Nonetheless, I believe you have given a biblical answer and one which I see as the way we should deal with people who have, for whatever reason. been entrapped in the Sodomite lifestyle.
What if we changed this sentence: “He said he was a Prebyterian minister’s son who found himself to be homosexual,” to something like this instead: “He said he was a Prebyterian minister’s son who found himself to be a pedophile”? Does that change the moral of your story, Gene?
I’m sure Gene will answer the question shortly, but I felt a need to chime in. Every sin has a consequence, as we all know. Consequences for ourselves and for those who find themselves in the line of fire when we go astray. Pedophilia, as opposed to homosexuality, is not only a sin against God and a crime against nature, it is a crime in the legal sense as well. A pedophile takes the life of a child, claims it as his own personal property and leaves it damaged and eventually cast aside, forever changed. There is no consent from the victim.
I think sure the moral of the story would be changed in the sense that there is no secret to be kept; it must be revealed. Can we still be compassionate? Yes, we can, in the sense that we care even for the soul of the greatly fallen and pray for his salvation and repentance, even if his life is now to be spent behind bars. However, we can’t ever just search out a more acceptable church for the pedophile.
I share this from the perspective of a victim myself who was able, in time, through God’s grace and His modeling of forgiveness, to forgive the man who twisted my life into a shape he thought for some reason he had a right to design. In time, God does undo the most evil work of men.
=Thom—my heart and prayers go out to you. No matter the power of God, your mind still has haunting memories.
You can’t erase them—only try to keep them from obsessing you with anger.
Again, my sincerest prayers–and thanks for your honesty.
Thom Hunter,
A true Pedophile has a twisted nature in his sexual desires. His desire for sexual gratification is focused on children. He does not desire adult females.
The concept of the “reprobate mind” (KJV) comes into play here as defined in Romans 1.
It is stated that 99.9% of all true pedophiles will never has a change in their sexual desires for the remainder of their lives. I believe that to be true.
I am not saying they cannot know the forgiving grace of God in a salvation experience. I am saying they desires for children to used in sexual gratification, will in all likelihood never change. For that reason a pedophile should never be allowed to work with or around children. Far too many local churches have made drastic and horrible mistakes by allowing such to happen.
You rang, sir!!!!
The difference between pedophile and homosexual is tremendous. The latter involves abject abuse of the worst kind!
For such pedophiles, I believe Jesus would advocate a millstone around the neck and casting into the sea. We, sadly, have such in the world of the Baptirew (righteous Pharisees trying to cover their crimes against the weak).
In the Presbyterian Minister’s son’s case, I could clearly tell he had a problem he hated, but found no solution to it–even a more dedicated relationship to God who made him as he was. In addition, this man was in a committed relationship and not “trolling for boys.”
Anyone just talking or looking at him would never guess what was his problem. Feel free to ask more to the limit of confidentiality of the conversation. Since I have already “changed his name to protect his innocence,” confidentiality is not that great an issue with me.
I’m home for the day today. I have to work for my living in trees tomorrow, so don’t wait too long. My “honey do” list awaits as the day gets warmer here by the Pamlico River in eastern NC. Man, it’s gonna be lovely here today!!!
Gene,
Thank you for your prayers. God has given me the grace to forgive the perpetrator, placing his fate in God’s hands. God has also given me a determination to be as aware as possible of those like this man who seize on opportunities to lure the unprotected. So . . . even that horrible part of my childhood can be used if yielded to God. I’m no longer angry. This is not an easy world for most people and we should not retreat, but stand together to help each other through to eternity, saving who we can along the way.
Thanks for that declaration, Thom—I have had to turn over some for God’s vengence to take care of it. Like you, I find God a master at vengence. By becoming God in the vengence world, I find demons coming out in me.
You can trust God to be a being of His Word!!! Others here don’t seem to trust Him that much.
—Joe / cb: listen carefuly here, I’m speaking precisely of you 2.
My point in asking the question is this: Why isn’t the pedophile given the same pass as the homosexual for “finding himself” with certain sexual predispositions?
Darby–my answer above should have gotten here–sorry!
See #84 (for right now) as numbers change with input.
Gene,
You stated: “I believe Jesus would advocate a millstone around the neck and casting into the sea.”
If you believe that then why did you go so light on the on the man who got involved with a teenage girl?
Since you let him off so easily, maybe you should jump in the river with a backhoe bucket tied around you neck. Just thinking.
cb—
Where were you the last 4+ times I have explained that incident = the teenager seduced the older man!!!!
Give it a rest—or else—on this =
What are 2 ultra conservatives chained each to an engine block and thrown into the Pamlico River???
Answer: A darned good start!!!!
And I’m glad to know both of you attend a non-SBC “bible” church!!!!!!! That really impresses me. I trust the rest of the bloggers will take notice!!!
Do either of you know what RA or GA stands for????
How about HMB / FMB????
How about—the rest of us who grew up in the SBC can ask you those questions!!!!
The homosexual argument is typically that he “finds” himself with this predisposition. That’s how you described the Presby above. That’s a fine observation which I have no problem granting. It’s the conclusion demanded from the observation that I do not grant. Just because someone has a certain desire, even a very strong one, does not mean he is free to act upon that desire without consequence.
The pedophile “finds” himself with a strong desire for that which is reprehensible. It’s wrong for us to deny that he has this desire. I’m sure he does, being that we’re all depraved. But we cannot grant that the existence of a desire is an automatic argument for its fulfillment.
This is basic civil morality 101. It doesn’t require a degree in philosophy or ethics to see that the homosexual argument is just plain illogical. As Christians, we must love those with such desires and accept them as friends, and even brothers and sisters in Christ. But we cannot give them a free pass on their desires while holding everyone accountable for theirs.
Gene,
I am a member of a Southern Baptist church. I serve there as pastor. We have both RAs and GAs. We even support AA.
If you will move down here we will start a LA (Liars Anonymous)
Well, considering that Gene doesn’t believe homosexuality is a sin and he believes that to call it a sin is to demonstrate prejudice because “Jesus didn’t preach about it” (since, of course, Gene has a complete transcript of every word Jesus ever said) Gene would never call a homosexual to repent of their sin.
Joe—
[Edited by blog administrator] Man, it’s the start of another week and your witch/demon doesn’t have to come out until Halloween!
By the way, what is your costume for this year????
Healed homosexuals — though most of them stay silent from the relief and the desire to rebuild their lives — would tell you would their minds have cleared and emotions stabilized, homosexuality is clearly a sin. Freedom from that sin, like any other, can only begin with repentance, no matter how hard and slow the steps may be. It is a not a “worst” sin, but it is most definitely a sin.
It is a not a “worst” sin, but it is most definitely a sin.
Exactly. I knew from reading this post and others you’ve written that you affirm that to be true. My point that Gene doesn’t believe homosexuality is a sin is based on (a) his assertion that Jesus didn’t preach about it and Paul was just showing his prejudice and (b) his complaint that NC Churches that “minister” to homosexuals are not allowed to participate in the State SBC. What he means by “minister” is “allow them to be come members of” which, as you rightlly noted elsewhere, would not be appropriate because they are living in unrepentant sin.
It would be the same thing if a person was cheating on their spouse or using the internet to view pornography. Those are not disorders to be treated but sins to be repented of to the glory of God. Thankfully, God will forgive anyone who repents of their sins and trusts Christ to save them and that no sin is a worse sin than any other in that Christ’s sacrifice paid the price for it.
Gene,
I remember well the Royal Ambassadors and the Girls Auxiliary. I was a Baptist Student Union summer missionary to Bangladesh through the former Foreign Mission Board. My college roommate, David Crane, served the same summer in Peru and is an IMB Missionary in Medillin, Colombia, where he has served for more than 25 years. I’m fortunate to have grown up a Southern Baptist and still am, at First Southern-Del City . . . but I have seen God do some mighty works in non-Baptist churches and many have come to Christ in them. God is unlimited by denominational guidelines.
Darby—
It appears to me your question has been more than honestly answered.
Neither of us here are in any way making a pass on pedophiles. Since Christa Brown has basically been put to the side by the SBC, I think we must conclude we talk big talk, but don’t walk the walk of policing pedophiles and other molesters in our ministerial ranks.
The excuse that “we don’t/can’t control the local church” is totally empty. The SBC kicked out Broadway for ministering to homosexuals, yet can’t encourage any ordained minister caught molesting to have his ordaination papers revoked by whatever body gave them—-is in my mind, TOTALLY REDICULOUS!!!!
As Christians we have to realize that moral laws and legal laws do not always line up perfectly. While both fall under the judgment of God, homosexuality is legal in the eyes of our culture. Pedophilia is not.
In most cases, homosexual sex is consensual. Pedophilia always involves non-consensual sex. There is no way to ever give a pass for that. Nor should there be a pass for homosexual sex, heterosexual adultery, or pornography addiction. Forgiveness and restoration, yes, based on confession and repentance.
Pedophiles have engaged in a sex crime and must face justice. However, some church members have found that God can give them enough grace to minister even to the pedophile in prison. I am thankful for that, for their souls are endangered. Although I was a victim myself, I have been writing consistently to a man I barely knew in my former church who is now serving 40 years in prison for molesting his sons’ friends. I detest what he has done, but I see him as still bearing a soul and not beyond redemption beyond this life.
Gene,
Again your hypocrisy in this area knows no bounds. You state:
“we talk big talk, but don’t walk the walk of policing pedophiles and other molesters in our ministerial ranks.”
Yet, you let the guy who was involved sexually with a teenage girl walk away with little more than a slap on the wrist.
It is you that is “TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.” You say one thing and practice another=Hypocrisy.
Hipocrisy = playing 2 parts with different masks KNOWING you are deceiving people in the process!!!!
From the Greek Theater when they were short on actors and had to give several double duty.
I know I’m not being paid to play 2 parts—you will just have to convince me you aren’t!!!!
The SBC kicked Broadway out because they allowed openly homosexual people in openly homosexual relationships to be members of the church. That isn’t “ministering” to them–that is saying “Homosexuality is not a sin”. As Thom himself said above The deacon should have prayed with, sought counsel, shared scripture and advised the gay man not to join the church at this time because, loved as he is, he is embracing a lifestyle inconsistent with the Word of God and the principles of that church.
That would go for anyone who is living in open, unrepentant sin.
A-Men Joe.
My mistake, Joe—I was of the “mistaken” belief that church was a place for people to meet God / be loved / be encouraged to clean up any sin in their life / find forgiveness! Does your church NOT welcome sinners especially???
I guess it’s just not that way in pefect “Joe’s church-world.”
Gene,
Quite obviously if you had the intelligence of moldy bread you would have observed (a) Thom said the exact same thing I did and (b) no one said ANYTHING about them coming to church. A person who is living in open, unrepentant sin is providing evidence that they are not saved. OBVIOUSLY, to anyone with an ounce of sense in order for a person to be admitted into membership they have to first be a Christian. A person living in unrepentant sin has demonstrated by their lack of repentance that they are not saved.
Just as you prove by your denial of the biblical gospel that you’re not saved.
Joe—
Not a member of an SBC = NO RESPONSE!!!!
Gene=not a Christian=will go to hell.
Joe–
See above = I’ll say nothing more to a non-Southern Baptist.
Gene=delusional=has said twice now that he wouldn’t say anything else to me. The irony escapes you, huh?
Night, night, Joe—and don’t let the evil “liberal” bed bugs bite!!!!
Joe,
Sometimes I think you are the funniest man alive. We have to get together someday. I would love to hear you make some of these one-liners in person. 🙂
I’m so glad cb came to tuck you in and assure you that you’re NOT insane—just funny. Remember, Joe and cb–just funny and not mean as snakes.
Nothing funny about a rattle snake coiled up to strike. During Katrina I almost got bit by a diamond back Sunday afternoon looking at the job, but come Monday my Bobcat removed all his cover and we saw him no more!!!
Ugly & scared / ugly & scared / ugly and scared = keep saying it to Joe and eventually his evil mind will rest = ugly & scared / ugly & scared / ugly and scared . . . .
Thinkaboudit!!!!
Let me clarify what I mean by “say.”
Same as I will not argue with you further. Even a dog in the street about to be hit by a car needs someone to, at last whistle at him—or shoot him in the rump with a shotgun at proper distance.
Please explain to me how you make a living blogging all day. I have to go to work today so enjoy!!!
“…..Ugly and scared, ugly and scared…..”
So Gene, I see you are not only a theological liberal, but you are also into mysticism and Yoga. Does you head also spin around while you spew green vomit. 🙂
cb–
Good morning. Why do you come to me with such “green vomit” yourself?
Somehow I think you describe yourself far more than me!!!
Let me clarify what I mean by “say.”
Same as I will not argue with you further.
So, in order to prove your point about not argueing with me any further you argue with me further. You know, Gene, you’ve got a real good shot at that insanity plea.
CB, sometime when we’re down in Alabama I’ll make a point of looking you up. I’ll see if we can’t come down for the A-Day game in the spring
So now “clarify” = “argue”??????
Give me a break and look carefully into that shaving mirror this morning. Are your eyes dancing up-and-down = mental issues!!!
Gene, Joe. We get it. Gene thinks Joe is mean. Joe thinks Gene has not truly been saved because of some beliefs he expressed.
You gentlemen have both expressed your viewpoints clearly and extensively.
Now, back to the subject of the post.
Come on Dave, you gotta admit it’s hilarious that Gene said “I’m not gonna talk to you again” 15 times in a row which of course means that he responded 14 more times than he said he would. 🙂 I mean, even CB admited I’m a regular laugh riot above. LOL
You are definitely good for some laughs, Joe.
“We are way too silent on those issues as well…Any thoughts on that?”
Yes.
1. We no longer really, really believe in celibacy outside marriage. We don’t think it’s possible; we are “realists.”
2. We do not practice celibacy outside marriage. We give the Sunday School answer and then do our own thing, or avert our eyes while our fellow Sunday School members or our sons or adult singles do their own thing.
3. We do not believe that people are called to singleness, or that singleness can be holy and fruitful.
4. We value personal autonomy above holiness. We have rights.
5. We fear men, not God.
6. We do not address spiritual damage or spiritual wounds – to the body of Christ, the assembly, the church – resulting from sexual sin.
7. Last but not least: we focus primarily on the sinner, or those locked in battle, and have very little for the awash in the wake of their parent’s sexual sin. What does the church have for them?
To the extent that we have already ceded ground to sexual sin — and are unrepentant — we have lost standing to address the practice of homosexuality. But God is holy and speaks to all of it, and He is not partial.
“very little for the CHILDREN awash in the wake of their parents’ sexual sin”
I think for a lot of churches, just truthfully telling those who struggle with homosexuality and other sexual sins that they truly can be forgiven and are loved and can be changed from the inside out in a way that will free them from being enslaved by temptation . . . would be a radical start.
And then? We could treat them as if we truly believe what we just told them, and they might actually believe it themselves.
I agree, my hurting brother in the faith. Only those who have been in your shoes have any real knowledge of the hurts and pain involved.
The fact you don’t want to kill any sexual perversion person is a more than big way of following Christ into the real world!
Here in NC, we have put in a Financial Policy that precludes any church ministersing to homosexuals from giving through the NCBSC.
That, for me, is a terrible curse on Baptists in this state—and a terrible public display. It brought on this conversation from a hurting man who felt not NCBSC love toward him–in a very public forum of news coverage!
AMEN AND AMEN!!!!
CB,
It definitely does matter to me what you think and I am thankful that you express yourself. So many are too silent, and in that silence we oversee the growth of sin.
I agree wholeheartedly with your remarks regarding pedophilia. It does not matter whether the pedophile is homosexual or heterosexual, Pedophilia is not so much sexual as it is a twisted expression by a person incapable of relating normally. He inflicts his desires upon the helpless. And you’re right, records have been kept long enough for us to know reliably that almost all will revert when free. This has to be one of Satan’s most gripping vices.
Pedophiles should never again be around children, as you said. Churches have to take preventive measures and practice extreme precaution to protect the little ones in our care.
All things should be done with a truthful understanding that homosexuals are not pedophiles by nature, no more than heterosexuals are. We’re talking about a completely different sexual issue: adults and children. Perverted pleasure through perverted power.
Can they find their way to God? Yes, some can. Can we allow them access to children again, regardless of their sanctification? No, we can’t. Our limited view into the human heart has restrictions.
Thom Hunter.
I believe you and I are traveling the same roads of thought in these matters. if you ever find yourself down Birmingham way, give me a call. Lunch is on me.
Thom–
This leads us to a terrible thing going on these days under the heading of “Human Trafficking.” It involves many children and women from foreign countries having their papers jerked and put into virtual slavery to the lusts of men wanting perverted sex.
It also involves runaways whom the traffikers spot in a flash and use in prostitution.
On the other hand, if church people in this Bible Belt part of the nation were not hiding their perversions in trailer parks and low rent districts—just like alcohol—the money making at the destruction of human personhood could not exist!
It is a 2-way street straight to the gates of Hell. It is a ressurection in our day–and our society–of nothing short of Sodom and Gammorah! This is where we should get our dander up as against fighting with fellow Christians over “who is more perfect!”
CB,
Wow. Thanks for the invite. I’ve not been to Alabama in a number of years. Lisa and I might travel through that part of the country if we attend the Exodus International Conference in North Carolina next summer. I’ll also be at the SBC Convention in Arizona working with Bob Stith at The Way Out booth is anyone will be there. I’d really enjoy meeting you.
Thom—
Since you will be in NC, here’s my invite to come on to near the coast at Bath, the oldest town in the state, and located by the Pamlico River. We might get a tast of Blackbeard and other historic things here at 303 years of age! I keep hoping to hear the clunk of my shovel on a chest of pirate money, but thus far have only cut an irrigation line I have to replace today!
Instead of Alabama bar-b-q which is good, I have some fresh seafood recipes and we can catch the fish / shrimp / crabs right in front of my cottage. Eastern NC bar-b-q it not far off either.
Thanks, Gene. You guys are very hospitable. I may have to do a tour!
It’s just Southern Hospitality–Baptist style!