I was listening to Francis Chan, and he made an interesting statement. If you started a church today and you had no knowledge of a church, never been to a church and never seen a church, all you had was the New Testament, what would your church look like? That got me thinking, what would a New Testament church look like? How would we behave? What would we do? How would we meet? Where would we meet and how often? Is what we have today really a New Testament church?
In the New Testament, how many people came and just sat and left? How many were not radically changed? In today’s church on a given Sunday morning, how many people show little to no fruit of their walk with Christ? How many show no life transformation? How many are actively being discipled? How many are involved in making disciples? How many of our “leader” behave just like the rest of the world when they get mad or angry? How many hold the same standards of material possessions, success, and achievement?
Even in the church, if we want more done, do we work harder or do we pray more? We love to talk about accountability, meaning the people who lead are suppose to lead harder, better, faster, cleaner and strong. Is that a New Testament idea or an American one? Why do we assume that “do all things as for the Lord” means to work yourself to death so the Holy Spirit doesn’t have too. Is it working? Are we producing fruit or are we pushing people out the door? If we are doing so great, why is the Christian Faith in a steady nosedive in this country?
Are we really reaching people with our standard American model? It seems to me it’s based mostly on personality and human effort. The churches that grow have a strong, gifted and eloquent lead or senior pastor. Is the Lord adding to the church, or are we bringing them in ourselves?
What happens to the men who God calls who don’t have that ability to draw a crowd? I will tell you they burn out, they get frustrated, the drop out and fall away. It’s no wonder, when you talk about ministry with most pastors, they will tell you it’s hard work, long hours, little pay and high stress. Guys are burning out and destroying themselves, and I think it’s this American idealistic model of you get what you earn, so you work harder and God will do more. We wouldn’t say it like that, but that is how it works. It’s absurd to think if you look better, speak better and sound intelligent that the Holy Spirit will work through you more thn someone who is more humble, homely and not as sharp.
What is the problem? Ego? I think that is a huge part of it. A need to have control rather than letting God have it? I think that is probably another big chunk. Doing it the same way we have always done it? Probably. This is this need to prove ourselves, to work harder and try harder, after all, we gotta earn that paycheck, right? After all, we work for the church, we work for the tithers, and if they aren’t happy, then they will leave. That’s not New Testament, it’s not life transformation, it’s not about Jesus. It’s about keeping the masses happy so we can be “successful”.
I think the church in America is headed for disaster, because we are idolatrous with this concept of success. We worship hard work, we worship self-sacrifice, we worship following every rule and we are not different than the religious leaders and pharisees. We have stopped trusting in God, we worship Mega-Church pastors, we put them in charge of agencies and the denomination because they “have proven they can be successful” and we try to mold ourselves into their image. It smells like idol worship and self-service to me.
Let me finish with this statement, and I feel sure many of you will begin commenting long before you get this far in my article. I am not picking on you, so please don’t write “did you do research, why are you saying “we”, I am not like that”. I’m sure you are not, I am sure you are the exception to this rule. I am using “we” to talk about the American church in general, and I am sure yours is great and doesn’t have this problem. Don’t worry, I am talking to everyone else who hasn’t learned from you to see how great you are doing. I wouldn’t want to tell you that you are doing anything wrong and heaven forbid that you would admit to it, so save your comments about how I am judging you and I haven’t seen your church. I am not talking about you, I have a whole other blog to write for you. In the mean time, let’s pray that we can figure out what it means to be The Church and stop working so hard to run this business and social organization that we claim is church.
People have all kinds of ideas as to what a church really is. Some people think it is a building (a cathedral, or a place of worship). Others think of a church as a denomination and speak of the “Catholic Church,” the “Presbyterian Church,” the “Baptist Church,” etc. Many Christians conceive the “Church” as consisting of all born-again believers in the world; a kind of “invisible, universal” church. Our task is to put aside these ideas and determine what God says a church is and is not.
THE CHURCH IS A NEW TESTAMENT INSTITUTION.
Comment shortened by moderator with link provided to post that contains the entire content of the comment for those who would like to read it all.
I am not going to say I disagree with anything specific, but it does sound to me very familiar. Like you are taking what you believe the church is or should be and then finding some verses that support your theory and making logical sense out of what you already think. I think this mode of “Biblical justification” is what got us into this mess in the first place.
I agree with you Dan. It’s not about how many meetings or services you attend. The Bible also says For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20. Wherever we are, we are the church. I think Hebrews 10:25 is being used out of context.
Good thought provoking post Dan. I hope this generates a lot of discussion as I think your question is so important. It’s good to look to what scripture actually says on this and I don’t read it as what has been traditionally taught.
I might add that looking to Christian churches outside of the United States, in the mission field for example is a great model. I always believed that our missionaries did church right and should be looked to for a good Biblical example. It’s fascinating to me how God is working overseas in remote areas where people who come to Christ do church.
Wow, Kev; I’m impressed.
This is the most succinct description of Landmarkist ecclesiology I’ve ever seen in one place. But do you have a reference for this or did you compose it yourself? I’d just like to know for my own reference collection.
Dan, you should save this post in it’s entirety for historical adn reference purposes as well.
That is because RevKev copied and pasted this directly from a blog post dated 2009… http://oneheartonepurpose.blogspot.com/2009/05/one-heart-one-purpose-lesson-3.html
Joshua, That is MY blog.
Right.
You got it right Greg. From his blog, (thanks for the info Joshua) he wrote:
The average Protestant thinks true Christianity disappeared during the “Dark Ages” and was revived after the Protestant Reformation. A lot of Baptists have been duped into believing they are Protestants and had their beginnings in England in the early part of the 17th Century.
That is. . . well Landmarkism. For the record, I am duped, believing we can from the Separatist Movement in England. That is not to say that God has not always kept men of faith and virtue, even in the darkness of the dark ages, but I am not going to say it was a “Baptist” church. They were men who God kept for His Church and His glory.
I have long contended that Baptist’ are not Protestants (Religious sects that emerged as a result of The Reformation). I have abundant evidence to prove that Baptist’ existed prior to The Reformation (A rebellion of clergy and laymen against the false teaching of the Catholic Church) and that those who were a part of The Reformation continued to persecute Baptist long after the reformation ended.
Ive seen the evidence. I simply disagree and would not call it “proof “.
In recent days, the following verse has begun to reveal where Christ’s influence came from that drew the crowds. The truth He spoke also divided them at the same time.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14
In my quest to know and understand the function and use of “grace” I have come to the understanding that grace “is the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in life” Strong’s 5485. Grace functions this way in salvation and the abundant life, too. Not only is grace imparted by God, it is also imparted by believers who are full of grace. Paul always started his letters with “Grace to you” and began to deliver to the local churches God’s truth.
What makes grace work? Humility from weakness.
“And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness. Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” 2 Cor. 12:9
It sounds like grace is God’s power. What people saw when they looked at Jesus, the man, was much of what is written in Isaiah below.
“For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, [There is] no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, [our] faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.” Isaiah 53:2,3
But that was Jesus’ calling. All of us can and should be filled with God’s grace for the work before us. If we do not go forward with that power in place we will wonder if we are doing the right thing. If we were able to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are full of grace and truth in our ministry, then, no matter how successful, how big, how small, how unsuccessful or anything related to how we measure by western standards, we would be content knowing we are in the will of God and live in peace as Christ would have us live. None of this comes without the passion in prayer that Christ displayed.
Then again, God’s plan can unfold over 100’s of years and this generation may be setting up God’s next step in His overall design for the ages.
I really did like your post. It is true that the churches are influenced by a fleshly appetite. Satan has been allowed to set the pace through many mediums, mainly the media and music. We do need His grace to pull away from that influence.
Thanks Bruce.
I see a plurality of leadership in the New Testament.
Not one “PASTOR”. Everyone contributed according to their gifts (not whether or not they were male or female)
We live and work overseas….plurality of leadership is what we have; we tithe, we go out (went to a leprosy village last weekend) and minister, we fellowship and have meals together, we support and encourage each other in our work…we are all from many different sending groups, but we are His church. We have no building to pay for or salaries to pay so our funds can go to help others (those in our group and those in need in the community)….for me, this is being His church….
Good Morning, DAN
some thoughts about God’s interaction with those He made ‘in His image’:
first, there was Adam, the first man
then, there was a ‘holy family’ . . . (Noah)
and then there was a ‘tribe’ . . . (Father Abraham)
and then there was a ‘nation’ . . . (Moses)
and then there was a ‘kingdom’ . . . (King David)
and then there was an ‘Ekklesia’ (Lord Jesus Christ Son Savior Risen From the Dead)
I am not sure that we can isolate ‘The Church’ as a ‘New Testament Church’ without understanding the unfolding of God’s work which is laid out for us in the whole of sacred Scripture.
If we do this, DAN, we may miss some of the ‘signs’ of what it means when God, from age to age, calls a people to Himself. I think we cannot separate a part of the story out, without looking at the larger picture.
some thoughts on a Monday morning 🙂
Dan,
I’ve heard this from Chan before too. It is an interesting question to ponder upon, a risky question to answer. I agree that many are in idolatrous worship of success. I would argue it is a more sickening than most are willing to admit. The bewitching trap of idolatrous practices in worship must be repulsive to God and we must repent of our abomination to God. Unless we realize that our worship behavior is worship of self rather than God, we should expect at some point that God will remove his lamp stand from among us – if he hasn’t already.
The church of the living God must stop looking to the publishing house to rescue her. We must look to the creator of the church himself. I mean no disrespect to the publishing house, I have an appreciation for the partnered laborer you are; but church, we must stop putting the trending books, methods, systems, personalities, or ‘success’ models in front of our people. We must put the Lord Jesus Christ himself in front of his people and persevere to the end.
What will happen if a faithful band of believers are arrested from the United States while obeying their Lord? Many (not all) of the “leading” missionologist will criticize them for not consulting the ‘experts’. Or they will be isolated by their denomination because fear will cripple them and threaten their ‘success’. Or another ministry will blame them for getting in the way of their work. Or they will simply slander them without cause to somehow protect their own ‘self-created’ integrity.
I will join you, and many others I hope, in praying that we, the church, “will stop working so hard to run this business and social organization that we claim is church.”
Paul Burleson has an interesting article on this written in 2011 by John Reisenger. There are some good points to consider, even in the comment section.
http://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-does-new-testament-church-look.html
Dan:
Your concluding paragraph made me chuckle. Well played, sir. Well played.
Thanks dude!
Dan, just from the comments received thus far there would be 6-10 different models of churches that people would start or already believe are correct. As Paul (not the apostle) said it’s a great question with a risky answer. Could be why even the churches of the New Testament all looked different and had different issues (hence the different epistles). And don’t forget the churches of Revelation–all battling different issues, all losing focus of the bigger picture.
Dan said, “Are we really reaching people with our standard American model? It seems to me it’s based mostly on personality and human effort. The churches that grow have a strong, gifted and eloquent lead or senior pastor. Is the Lord adding to the church, or are we bringing them in ourselves?”
Your questions cut to the heart of a big issue. It seems to me that the methods we use are little different than those of corporate America, except that we sprinkle Christian phrases and some token prayer on OUR plans. Little is left to God. The machine drives our activities. “Keeping the wheels from falling off” , “keeping the plates spinning” and “moving the bus down the road” takes over. We do get results, but they are the same kinds of results we get in other spheres that have nothing to do with God. How many times have you seen a focused, organized capital campaign reach a goal and then hear talk about what God did?
I see the same thing in our SBC entities and seminaries, at least historically. Do you want to get a quick invitation to dine with leaders? Write a sizeable check. I can state with certainty that a few years ago, one SBC entity invited some donors (i.e. those giving above a certain threshold) on a “free” (SBC churches paid for it) cruise to spend time with SBC leaders and like-minded missions supporters to discuss missions opportunities. It seems understood that you focus on the big donors. Make ’em feel important. Let ’em know you appreciate the significance of what they’ve done for you. Really? In the Church of Jesus Christ? What about being no respector of persons? Political campaigns are notorious for selling access, but could this be happening in the Church? Jesus, James and Paul were all pretty clear on this matter.
I want to see God do things that we can’t attribute to our campaigns and efforts. I want to see things happen in our church that make no human sense – things that can’t be equally well explained by the plans we’ve executed. If our church brings in a capital fund-raising company who tells us their “Christian” program will pull in $2 for every $1 we could generate on our own, is it right to attribute the results to God when we collect exactly the percentages they predicted? Are these fundraisers so close to God that they’ve reduced Him to statistics? I don’t think so.
These are just a few off-the-cuff examples. I don’t know how we break the cycle. I am certain I’m part of the problem. Maybe it’s because I use human effort to try to break the cycle of human efforts. Maybe I haven’t yet learned how to turn it over to God either. Maybe the log is in my eye while I pick at the specs of others. Probably more than maybe. My fear is that God will act to change things, and that we may not find the process as pleasant as we would like.
Thanks Layman. I agree that I too am part of the problem, and I know that my self effort will not fix the issue of relying on self-effort rather than God. I am just focusing on trying to be what God already says I am, free in Christ, and stop trying so hard to be what I already am.
Dan – Great Post!
This is a much more relevant discussion to the direction and perseverance of the SBC than some silly name that has no eternal significance.
I saw the same sermon by Chan and was blown away that a so-called “mega-church” pastor would be questioning what he had done with such honesty and directness. He informed that congregation that he had done what he was advised in starting Cornerstone Church: location, worship leader, sermon, sound system, & childcare were considered essential. And frankly, they are still considered essential by most every church.
However, none of those are listed in the New Testament as elements of “the church.” I remember entering the ministry as a worship pastor and all the advice i got about what to do and what not to do: have a “traditional” service, don’t have one; “contemporary” or not; “blended” or not; do speak, don’t speak; play an instrument, never play; dress up, dress down; etc, etc, etc. It was nauseating.
When I looked at scripture in forming my philosophy of worship leadership, I found it to be loud and quiet, intentional, full of emotion, and most importantly, it was all about God (praise) or all towards God (worship): the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The ideas of “traditional” or “contemporary” are from Satan because they only serve to divide. The idea that we “must” have piano or organ or choir or hymns or guitars or drums or whatever is a self-centered limitation on worship.
I agree with Dan, we tend to limit what church is by what we want it to be or what we are accustomed to experiencing rather than search the scripture to see if any of it is relevant to being part of “the church.”
I believe that where the Word is preached (the law, to expose our sin [not to make us better], and the gospel, to create faith and raise us to new life), and where His Supper is administered in accordance with that gospel…then there is the church.
We cannot shoehorn people into believing. But we can throw the Word, freely like seed, and pray that the Holy Spirit will do His work in our poor efforts.
“Faith comes by hearing, and the Word of God.”
Thanks.
Let me hit this group between the eyes with Dan’s post:
Where is there any justification in scripture for the way we do “preaching” in church today? Where is there justification for a “sermon” to the believers the way we do from behind a pulpit with 3 points and a prayer?
Please don’t shoot short by talking about the “sermon on the mount” or times Peter or Paul or John preached the Gospel and repentance… any of those would indeed be preaching, but evangelistic preaching to be specific. None of them are examples of typical expository, meaning/explanation/application preaching that is taught and observed today.
We (descendants of the protestant reformation) emphasized scripture over communion and tradition against the RCC. I think in many things (observance of communion) we threw the baby out with the bath water. In regards to emphasizing scripture, namely sola scripturea, yes, this was correct. But our application of that (preaching from the pulpit) i think is not rooted in scripture.
We should be teaching and exhorting the believers in their faith, specifically with the goal of “preparing them for the ministry” wherein they will teach and exhort each other.
But why should they continue to gather with the express purpose of all sitting, facing forward, and listening to just one guy for 30-60min? Where is that scriptural?
Well, they had to sit and listen to Paul all night long. (Acts 20:7-11)
right… That alone speaks against the idea of shortening sermons to only 30 min. I think it hilarious today that people start looking at there watches after 25min. Paul had a guy fall asleep, fall out the window and break his neck.
Not taking this as a sign for God to stop, Paul raised the guy from the dead, brought him back up to the room, and kept going 🙂 🙂 🙂
However, i don’t know if this would be the same as our modern day sermon or more of extended discipleship or even a farewell like Deuteronomy. But it was a one time, uncommon occurrence, so I don’t know if that would make it a model.
Ezra. Only they didn’t get to sit. They had to stand.
Paul. Talked so long a man went to sleep and fell out the window.
If you are hung up on pews, buy chairs. Of course, only first century type wooden chairs. Or, buy a hillside and preach while they sit in groups or rows as taught in John.
“many other things Jesus said and did but they are not recorded.” (Jn 20:31. I don’t think we know exactly how they did things, nor do we know all the things they did. I’m pretty sure none of them drove to church, so out with the parking lot.
And, get rid of those Bibles. They didn’t exist.
It is easy to get hung up on incidentals, especially if you read Barna and Viola.
I really do not think that “pews” are the reason for whatever ills the modern church may have.
How does one read the last paragraph as anything but unnecessary, unhelpful and condescending.
It poisons the well
Nope, it is preemptive, but not poison.
You know full well there are TONS of people who are on blogs who probably shouldn’t be because they are immature, have thin skins, and thus tend to take things personally that are general statements.
I think Dan is speaking to both types: those who just react as if everything is personal and those who really are arrogant enough to think that they are beyond scrutiny… and THEN take it personally.
It was neither of those three. It was a tongue-in-cheek, quasi-inside joke. Dan (or another author, I forget exactly) was recently chastised for using the “editorial we” in a post. Nitpickery is often best handled with tongue-cheekery.
Sometimes the “we” needs to be defined in order understand the entire post. Does “we” = Christ’s church or Baptists or the SBC or a local church.
And then, sometimes people have thin skins and don’t like being called out. 🙂
There was some tongue in cheek, the point is, if you don’t think this applies to you, then it doesn’t. Simple as that. I am interested in having dialogue with “we”. Those of us who have similar struggles. If you are “them” and not “we” then it doesn’t apply to you.
Don’t worry Dan. If the “We” is attractive some people will break the glass slipper trying to make it fit. If the “We” is like an old stinky tennis shoe, well then it’s certainly not….
If the shoe fits wear it, if not pray for us fools it does.
Acts 2:37-47 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
The importance of the church is evidenced in Christ’s love for the church – Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ…
God’s Purpose, in this present age, is to build the church and call out a people for Himself. 1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
The Church is an institution of Divine Origin. A Church is to be…
• An assembly of born again baptized believers associated together by a covenant of faith and the fellowship of the gospel.
• The base of operations for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The mission of the church is the Great Commission. Acts 1:7-8 Jesus said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
In Acts we find a healthy, vibrant, thriving church. The Reason for its health was…
• They Understood The Importance of PRAYER.
Acts 2:42 They continued stedfastly…in prayers (See also Acts 4:23-31; 12:5; 16:25). After reading these verses we are inclined to conclude that prayer and the power of God go together!
• They Understood The Importance of PREACHING (v 14-40).
Acts 4:31 When they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
• They Understood The Importance of BIBLICAL TRUTH.
Acts 2:42 They continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine. [5:42] And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [22] The things that thou hast heard of me…the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
• They Understood The Importance of STANDING. In Acts 3:1-11, Peter & John are used of the Lord to heal a man lame from birth. In v 12-26 Peter preaches Christ.
Acts 4:1-4 As they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, 2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide. 4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about 5000. (See also Acts 4:5-22).
Philippians 1:17 I am set for the defense of the gospel.
We are commanded to preach. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
• They Understood The Importance of LOVE.
Acts 2:44-45 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
• They Understood The Importance of UNITY.
Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. [2:1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2:46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [4:24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: [5:12] And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. [15:26] Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Matthew 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
• They Understood The Importance of GROWTH.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [46-47] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. [4:4] Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. [16:5] And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Rev Kev,
Is this content another post from your blog? It would be better to provide a paragraph or two and a link to the post instead of posting a comment that is over 1000 words long.
Would it be safe to say we have church when the Holy Spirit shows up?
If that is the measure as I see it then this whole conversation becomes a moot point. Personally, that is the goal I have anytime I meet with anyone, be it 2 or 2000.
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Rev Kev has presented us with an interesting review of Landmark ecclesiology, a view that I once held as vociferously as he does. But then I began to find out that it would not hold up under close scrutiny. The answers have been provided by E.C. Dargan in his work on Ecclesiology and by John Thornbury in his work on The Church. Likewise, the view will not hold up under critical scrutiny in church history. Some one mentioned on another blog about J.R. Graves celebrating communion with a whole association. Hardly a Landmark practice! Besides he also served as the model of the bad preacher in Mark Twain’s Huck Finn!!! O well, what busted me out of Landmarkism? Just look at the variety of opinions among Landmarkers on the baptism of I Cors.12:13. “By one spirit were we all baptized into one body” can hardly be taken of a local church as the letter is addressed not only to the believers in Corinth, but to all who call upon the name of Jesus in every place (and you could include us today). So we have a spiritual body into which all are baptized by the Spirit, while Graves, Carroll, Gilpin, and a host of others have all kinds of explanations of that text. And then there were those Baptists who held to a universal, spiritual body before Graves was ever born, let alone converted. The FBC Church of Charleston, along with Welsh Neck, held to the Bapt. Confession of 1689 and the Philadelphia Confession of 1742 (a slight revision for the former), both of which have reference to the Westminster Confession, and they all spell out the doctrine of the universal spiritual body. Rev. Kev your summary will not hold water…as you have failed to address the answer of a serious and detailed reply to Landmarkism like that of Dargan and Thornbury (the father of Greg at Union University). John Thornbury, like my self, was a Landmarker at one time. His answer to Graves is succinct, decisive, and biblical in the fullest sense of the word.