I was listening to Francis Chan, and he made an interesting statement. If you started a church today and you had no knowledge of a church, never been to a church and never seen a church, all you had was the New Testament, what would your church look like? That got me thinking, what would a New Testament church look like? How would we behave? What would we do? How would we meet? Where would we meet and how often? Is what we have today really a New Testament church?
In the New Testament, how many people came and just sat and left? How many were not radically changed? In today’s church on a given Sunday morning, how many people show little to no fruit of their walk with Christ? How many show no life transformation? How many are actively being discipled? How many are involved in making disciples? How many of our “leader” behave just like the rest of the world when they get mad or angry? How many hold the same standards of material possessions, success, and achievement?
Even in the church, if we want more done, do we work harder or do we pray more? We love to talk about accountability, meaning the people who lead are suppose to lead harder, better, faster, cleaner and strong. Is that a New Testament idea or an American one? Why do we assume that “do all things as for the Lord” means to work yourself to death so the Holy Spirit doesn’t have too. Is it working? Are we producing fruit or are we pushing people out the door? If we are doing so great, why is the Christian Faith in a steady nosedive in this country?
Are we really reaching people with our standard American model? It seems to me it’s based mostly on personality and human effort. The churches that grow have a strong, gifted and eloquent lead or senior pastor. Is the Lord adding to the church, or are we bringing them in ourselves?
What happens to the men who God calls who don’t have that ability to draw a crowd? I will tell you they burn out, they get frustrated, the drop out and fall away. It’s no wonder, when you talk about ministry with most pastors, they will tell you it’s hard work, long hours, little pay and high stress. Guys are burning out and destroying themselves, and I think it’s this American idealistic model of you get what you earn, so you work harder and God will do more. We wouldn’t say it like that, but that is how it works. It’s absurd to think if you look better, speak better and sound intelligent that the Holy Spirit will work through you more thn someone who is more humble, homely and not as sharp.
What is the problem? Ego? I think that is a huge part of it. A need to have control rather than letting God have it? I think that is probably another big chunk. Doing it the same way we have always done it? Probably. This is this need to prove ourselves, to work harder and try harder, after all, we gotta earn that paycheck, right? After all, we work for the church, we work for the tithers, and if they aren’t happy, then they will leave. That’s not New Testament, it’s not life transformation, it’s not about Jesus. It’s about keeping the masses happy so we can be “successful”.
I think the church in America is headed for disaster, because we are idolatrous with this concept of success. We worship hard work, we worship self-sacrifice, we worship following every rule and we are not different than the religious leaders and pharisees. We have stopped trusting in God, we worship Mega-Church pastors, we put them in charge of agencies and the denomination because they “have proven they can be successful” and we try to mold ourselves into their image. It smells like idol worship and self-service to me.
Let me finish with this statement, and I feel sure many of you will begin commenting long before you get this far in my article. I am not picking on you, so please don’t write “did you do research, why are you saying “we”, I am not like that”. I’m sure you are not, I am sure you are the exception to this rule. I am using “we” to talk about the American church in general, and I am sure yours is great and doesn’t have this problem. Don’t worry, I am talking to everyone else who hasn’t learned from you to see how great you are doing. I wouldn’t want to tell you that you are doing anything wrong and heaven forbid that you would admit to it, so save your comments about how I am judging you and I haven’t seen your church. I am not talking about you, I have a whole other blog to write for you. In the mean time, let’s pray that we can figure out what it means to be The Church and stop working so hard to run this business and social organization that we claim is church.
People have all kinds of ideas as to what a church really is. Some people think it is a building (a cathedral, or a place of worship). Others think of a church as a denomination and speak of the “Catholic Church,” the “Presbyterian Church,” the “Baptist Church,” etc. Many Christians conceive the “Church” as consisting of all born-again believers in the world; a kind of “invisible, universal” church. Our task is to put aside these ideas and determine what God says a church is and is not. THE CHURCH IS A NEW TESTAMENT INSTITUTION. Comment shortened by moderator with link… Read more »
I am not going to say I disagree with anything specific, but it does sound to me very familiar. Like you are taking what you believe the church is or should be and then finding some verses that support your theory and making logical sense out of what you already think. I think this mode of “Biblical justification” is what got us into this mess in the first place.
I agree with you Dan. It’s not about how many meetings or services you attend. The Bible also says For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20. Wherever we are, we are the church. I think Hebrews 10:25 is being used out of context.
Good thought provoking post Dan. I hope this generates a lot of discussion as I think your question is so important. It’s good to look to what scripture actually says on this and I don’t read it as what has been traditionally taught.
I might add that looking to Christian churches outside of the United States, in the mission field for example is a great model. I always believed that our missionaries did church right and should be looked to for a good Biblical example. It’s fascinating to me how God is working overseas in remote areas where people who come to Christ do church.
Wow, Kev; I’m impressed.
This is the most succinct description of Landmarkist ecclesiology I’ve ever seen in one place. But do you have a reference for this or did you compose it yourself? I’d just like to know for my own reference collection.
Dan, you should save this post in it’s entirety for historical adn reference purposes as well.
That is because RevKev copied and pasted this directly from a blog post dated 2009… http://oneheartonepurpose.blogspot.com/2009/05/one-heart-one-purpose-lesson-3.html
Joshua, That is MY blog.
Right.
You got it right Greg. From his blog, (thanks for the info Joshua) he wrote: The average Protestant thinks true Christianity disappeared during the “Dark Ages” and was revived after the Protestant Reformation. A lot of Baptists have been duped into believing they are Protestants and had their beginnings in England in the early part of the 17th Century. That is. . . well Landmarkism. For the record, I am duped, believing we can from the Separatist Movement in England. That is not to say that God has not always kept men of faith and virtue, even in the darkness… Read more »
I have long contended that Baptist’ are not Protestants (Religious sects that emerged as a result of The Reformation). I have abundant evidence to prove that Baptist’ existed prior to The Reformation (A rebellion of clergy and laymen against the false teaching of the Catholic Church) and that those who were a part of The Reformation continued to persecute Baptist long after the reformation ended.
Ive seen the evidence. I simply disagree and would not call it “proof “.
In recent days, the following verse has begun to reveal where Christ’s influence came from that drew the crowds. The truth He spoke also divided them at the same time. “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 In my quest to know and understand the function and use of “grace” I have come to the understanding that grace “is the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in life” Strong’s 5485. Grace functions this way… Read more »
Thanks Bruce.
I see a plurality of leadership in the New Testament. Not one “PASTOR”. Everyone contributed according to their gifts (not whether or not they were male or female) We live and work overseas….plurality of leadership is what we have; we tithe, we go out (went to a leprosy village last weekend) and minister, we fellowship and have meals together, we support and encourage each other in our work…we are all from many different sending groups, but we are His church. We have no building to pay for or salaries to pay so our funds can go to help others (those… Read more »
Good Morning, DAN some thoughts about God’s interaction with those He made ‘in His image’: first, there was Adam, the first man then, there was a ‘holy family’ . . . (Noah) and then there was a ‘tribe’ . . . (Father Abraham) and then there was a ‘nation’ . . . (Moses) and then there was a ‘kingdom’ . . . (King David) and then there was an ‘Ekklesia’ (Lord Jesus Christ Son Savior Risen From the Dead) I am not sure that we can isolate ‘The Church’ as a ‘New Testament Church’ without understanding the unfolding of God’s… Read more »
Dan, I’ve heard this from Chan before too. It is an interesting question to ponder upon, a risky question to answer. I agree that many are in idolatrous worship of success. I would argue it is a more sickening than most are willing to admit. The bewitching trap of idolatrous practices in worship must be repulsive to God and we must repent of our abomination to God. Unless we realize that our worship behavior is worship of self rather than God, we should expect at some point that God will remove his lamp stand from among us – if he… Read more »
Paul Burleson has an interesting article on this written in 2011 by John Reisenger. There are some good points to consider, even in the comment section.
http://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-does-new-testament-church-look.html
Dan:
Your concluding paragraph made me chuckle. Well played, sir. Well played.
Thanks dude!
Dan, just from the comments received thus far there would be 6-10 different models of churches that people would start or already believe are correct. As Paul (not the apostle) said it’s a great question with a risky answer. Could be why even the churches of the New Testament all looked different and had different issues (hence the different epistles). And don’t forget the churches of Revelation–all battling different issues, all losing focus of the bigger picture.
Dan said, “Are we really reaching people with our standard American model? It seems to me it’s based mostly on personality and human effort. The churches that grow have a strong, gifted and eloquent lead or senior pastor. Is the Lord adding to the church, or are we bringing them in ourselves?” Your questions cut to the heart of a big issue. It seems to me that the methods we use are little different than those of corporate America, except that we sprinkle Christian phrases and some token prayer on OUR plans. Little is left to God. The machine drives… Read more »
Thanks Layman. I agree that I too am part of the problem, and I know that my self effort will not fix the issue of relying on self-effort rather than God. I am just focusing on trying to be what God already says I am, free in Christ, and stop trying so hard to be what I already am.
Dan – Great Post! This is a much more relevant discussion to the direction and perseverance of the SBC than some silly name that has no eternal significance. I saw the same sermon by Chan and was blown away that a so-called “mega-church” pastor would be questioning what he had done with such honesty and directness. He informed that congregation that he had done what he was advised in starting Cornerstone Church: location, worship leader, sermon, sound system, & childcare were considered essential. And frankly, they are still considered essential by most every church. However, none of those are listed… Read more »
I believe that where the Word is preached (the law, to expose our sin [not to make us better], and the gospel, to create faith and raise us to new life), and where His Supper is administered in accordance with that gospel…then there is the church.
We cannot shoehorn people into believing. But we can throw the Word, freely like seed, and pray that the Holy Spirit will do His work in our poor efforts.
“Faith comes by hearing, and the Word of God.”
Thanks.
Let me hit this group between the eyes with Dan’s post: Where is there any justification in scripture for the way we do “preaching” in church today? Where is there justification for a “sermon” to the believers the way we do from behind a pulpit with 3 points and a prayer? Please don’t shoot short by talking about the “sermon on the mount” or times Peter or Paul or John preached the Gospel and repentance… any of those would indeed be preaching, but evangelistic preaching to be specific. None of them are examples of typical expository, meaning/explanation/application preaching that is… Read more »
Well, they had to sit and listen to Paul all night long. (Acts 20:7-11)
right… That alone speaks against the idea of shortening sermons to only 30 min. I think it hilarious today that people start looking at there watches after 25min. Paul had a guy fall asleep, fall out the window and break his neck. Not taking this as a sign for God to stop, Paul raised the guy from the dead, brought him back up to the room, and kept going 🙂 🙂 🙂 However, i don’t know if this would be the same as our modern day sermon or more of extended discipleship or even a farewell like Deuteronomy. But it… Read more »
Ezra. Only they didn’t get to sit. They had to stand. Paul. Talked so long a man went to sleep and fell out the window. If you are hung up on pews, buy chairs. Of course, only first century type wooden chairs. Or, buy a hillside and preach while they sit in groups or rows as taught in John. “many other things Jesus said and did but they are not recorded.” (Jn 20:31. I don’t think we know exactly how they did things, nor do we know all the things they did. I’m pretty sure none of them drove to… Read more »
How does one read the last paragraph as anything but unnecessary, unhelpful and condescending.
It poisons the well
Nope, it is preemptive, but not poison.
You know full well there are TONS of people who are on blogs who probably shouldn’t be because they are immature, have thin skins, and thus tend to take things personally that are general statements.
I think Dan is speaking to both types: those who just react as if everything is personal and those who really are arrogant enough to think that they are beyond scrutiny… and THEN take it personally.
It was neither of those three. It was a tongue-in-cheek, quasi-inside joke. Dan (or another author, I forget exactly) was recently chastised for using the “editorial we” in a post. Nitpickery is often best handled with tongue-cheekery.
Sometimes the “we” needs to be defined in order understand the entire post. Does “we” = Christ’s church or Baptists or the SBC or a local church.
And then, sometimes people have thin skins and don’t like being called out. 🙂
There was some tongue in cheek, the point is, if you don’t think this applies to you, then it doesn’t. Simple as that. I am interested in having dialogue with “we”. Those of us who have similar struggles. If you are “them” and not “we” then it doesn’t apply to you.
Don’t worry Dan. If the “We” is attractive some people will break the glass slipper trying to make it fit. If the “We” is like an old stinky tennis shoe, well then it’s certainly not….
If the shoe fits wear it, if not pray for us fools it does.
Acts 2:37-47 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words… Read more »
Rev Kev,
Is this content another post from your blog? It would be better to provide a paragraph or two and a link to the post instead of posting a comment that is over 1000 words long.
Would it be safe to say we have church when the Holy Spirit shows up?
If that is the measure as I see it then this whole conversation becomes a moot point. Personally, that is the goal I have anytime I meet with anyone, be it 2 or 2000.
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Rev Kev has presented us with an interesting review of Landmark ecclesiology, a view that I once held as vociferously as he does. But then I began to find out that it would not hold up under close scrutiny. The answers have been provided by E.C. Dargan in his work on Ecclesiology and by John Thornbury in his work on The Church. Likewise, the view will not hold up under critical scrutiny in church history. Some one mentioned on another blog about J.R. Graves celebrating communion with a whole association. Hardly a Landmark practice! Besides he also served as the… Read more »