DACA has been revoked with a 6 month hiatus. Congress can address this if they want to. It is their job to address this legislatively. So, here’s the deal:
- Evangelicals can speak on behalf of Immigrant DREAMers (those brought here illegally as children) and ask Congress to pass legislation to allow them to stay legally, or,
- We can do nothing, sit back, say it isn’t our problem, and whatever happens happens. If we do that, then DREAMers will lose their protection, lose their jobs, not be able to go to school, and will be eventually deported.
Those are the choices before us.
Dr. Bruce Ashford, provost of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and I lay out why Evangelicals should now advocate for Immigrant DREAMers here.
You can join your voice with around 1000 Evangelical pastors and church leaders asking Congress to act on legislatively on behalf of DREAMers by signing on this letter here. This is the letter created by the ERLC and other Evangelical organizations like the National Association of Evangelicals, World Relief, National Hispanic Christian Leadership Coalition, Coalition of Christian Colleges and Universities, and others. I’m glad that the ERLC spoke clearly on this. But, as I’ve heard many times here and elsewhere. Russell Moore and the ERLC can’t speak for every Southern Baptist. Each Southern Baptist pastor and church is responsible to speak on their own.
You can speak and act on behalf of young immigrant DREAMers who were brought here illegally as children. I meet with Congressional and Senate Republican offices regularly. They tell me that if Evangelical pastors and churches would speak, then they would have cover to act on behalf of DREAMers. If they don’t, there isn’t much they can do. Now, we have 6 months to fix this or almost a million young people who grew up here will be deported. Most of the Congressmen who will make this decision are in districts with heavy Evangelical populations, including Southern Baptists, often with massive churches. If we speak and advocate Biblically, they will listen. They want to hear what the Bible says and what the church thinks about these young people. We have a chance to change things. If we don’t speak, they will hear that too and act accordingly. Time to get off the fence. Saying nothing is saying everything. Silence is agreement with deportation. The clock is now ticking. 6 months.
Now this goes to Congress. They would actually like to hear from us. I’ve been told that personally. What will you do? This will all be decided soon. What role will the church play? It’s up to us.
Number two (2) has not been proven to be true. It appears to be nothing more than a scare tactic. Let’s not get into the habit of over stating things. We need genuine reality to make sober decisions.
It is all true. That is the trajectory. This Administration has said that all undocumented immigrants are now priority for deportation. ” [Acting ICE Director Thomas] Homan also said ICE’s priority is to protect the U.S. against those who are threats to public safety, but if agents encounter others who are in the country unlawfully, they’ll make “collateral” arrests. “There is no population off the table,” he said. “We are not going to selectively say, ‘OK, we are going to take this population and we are not going to enforce the law against you.’ Once you start carving out populations… Read more »
Yeah, well Mark, the only thing I see between that and reality is congressional action. We have a Republican President, a Republican senate, a Republican house, beside which all judges appointed since January 20 are either Republican or at the least Republican-leaning–and with that they cannot get passed legislation that the Republicans agree on. Do you really think they will pass legislation that the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus/Republican base is not on board with? If you do, I have some “oceanview” property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.
John
#2 is genuine reality Mark Mitchell.
I have been reading the many signatures of Christian leaders on the Evangelical Immigration Set of Principals and am both humbled and full of new respect for some that have signed. It was very emotional and powerful reading the signatures.
I should revise that some to all who signed.
I live and minister in the DC suburbs. One of our members works for a prominent Washington law firm which deals with numerous immigration cases. The lawyers there have told their clients to in turn tell their families and friends to “keep their heads down” because the Trump Administration is gathering ALL the illegal immigrants they can garner for deportation, no exceptions. Yes, you can argue the law firm has a vested interest, but the person I know at the firm is above reproach, who has a love and a heart for people, and I am convinced would not “bend… Read more »
I think Trump has done the right thing….Obama over reached and illegally made promises to people that he had to know would not continue past his administration….congress passes laws….the presidential debt enforces them. The only thing that is accomplished by resending Obama’s executive order is that the actual law will The only thing that is accomplished by trump/sessions rescinding Obama’s executive order is that the actual law (as passed by congress previously) will be enforced unless congress enacts a new one within six months. I think Trump did the wisest thing possible here – he couldn’t just allow the executive… Read more »
Not After but:
*I for one will be contacting my congressional representatives…
Also, Sorry sometimes when I’m posting on my phone and I don’t have very good reception… For some reason it will repeat text… Especially if I’m using the speak to text.
Alan, I think your appeal is accurate, and that Congress should act. The previous non-lawmaking body put “targets on illegals backs” that could not be erased because of existing American law by a legitimate law making body. A very unwise move by that administration on behalf of what is now called “dreamers”. It seems like the titles don’t follow reality. ACA is not ACA. Dreamers are not Dreamers. Both are being met with the same fate. Poor policy, and lots of people get hurt! Congress should be forced to act. That is their job….to legally and actually come up with… Read more »
Thanks, Alan, for being vigilant on this and keeping us informed. The right thing to do here is clear. I was neve in favor of Obama accomplishing this by executive order but the outcome was right. Dreamers should be protected and granted legal status and not made into a political football.
Alan, It’s simple. If the SBC could call a boycott at Disney World because of their same-sex relationship policies, inasmuch as the NFL, contributed heavily to Donald Trump’s inaugural, if the SBC boycotted the Super Bowl & all evangelicals, because of President. Trump’s decision on DACA, it would be a high-high probability that Congress would enact a law legislating DACA like immigration policy nuy quick. Unfortunately, SBC, as with the Nashville Statement quickly addresses(and rightfully so) sexual sin. However, they always fumble and equivocate on racial matters, or matters that challenge Republican orthodoxy. So, I’m not optimistic that this will… Read more »
Brother Dwight, It is not a government officials responsibility be they Democrat or Republican, loved or revered, to ignore those who are outside the boundaries of law, regardless of the circumstances of how they arrived there. In our system, the legislative, judicial, and executive have coequal powers so designated by a Constitution. In this case, only the Legislative body has the power so designated to it to propose, pass, and or amend law or existing law; it is in the executive’s power and duty to enforce those laws. The former President is the one who placed these young people in… Read more »
And technically Congress doesn’t have the right to defund DACA since we aren’t paying for it, it is funded through application fees.
Mark Terry: Self preservation, especially for the Christian is a poor reason to deport Dreamers. They can have the jobs. I want them to be educated. What I don’t want is for their lives to be traumatized by being deported to a land they don’t even know. Some have no rights for the citizens and women’s rights are non-existent. Danger may be waiting for them. These Dreamers have to follow strict requirements, they can’t get student loans. I want them here. Switzerland and I imagine Canada will be hosting these people and it’s just not what the United States was… Read more »
If we look at this from an economic perspective, it makes sense to provide a legal pathway for the Dreamers to gain citizenship. Why? One of the issues in our nation today is a shrinking work force. As baby boomers are retiring, the number of working adults is declining. This decline results in lower payments into the Social Security system. The benefits paid to retirees come from money paid in not by the retirees but rather from younger adults in the work force. The Dreamers number 800,000. The citizens of the USA have already paid to educate them. Why subtract… Read more »
Mark, I believe that is what Congress will be mulling over during the next few months. There were already neo-amnesty bills in play, and then Obama, through Presidential fiat thought his was the best option. Obviously, his work didn’t go very far and has created even a bigger mess to deal with legally. To some immigrants that have come and are coming to the United States within the legal guidelines, this has to seem a bit of an affront to Christian values. Its that old…Do as I say, not as I do situation. I listened to a DACA recipient this… Read more »
As much as I’m inclined to be against all things Trump, this isn’t a terrible idea. I doubt he thought of it. If DACA truly is illegal and unconstitutional, it should be revoked. Make congress put their money where their mouth is.
1. I do not have much confidence in Congress. They could not even repeal Obamacare. Even when they know the right thing to do, they are rather inept at getting it done. 2. I grieve the pain of every child in every nation whose parents commit crimes. They always are the ones who suffer innocently, regardless of the nature or location of the crime. 3. I am not sure what I think about allowing all children of illegal aliens to remain here. It seems to me this practice would incentivize illegal immigration: “Break into America with your kids and even… Read more »
I’m not certain American Southern Baptist missionaries are going to be well received by people kicked out of America by the man Southern Baptists overwhelmingly supported. Somehow the message of “we didn’t want you in our country but we’ll help you adjust to this one” doesn’t sound compelling.
Well, their parents did break the law, so there’s that.
I would look at it more like, “Even though your parents broke the law and entered our country illegally, and even though we have to insist that you leave, we do want to meet your basic needs and help you get resettled in the country where you are legally required to reside.”
And in all likelihood, it would not be the American Southern Baptist missionaries, but the national churches doing this ministry, with the support of American missionaries behind the scenes, I would think.
Rick,
Small correction.
If they are born here in the USA, they are automatically citizens.
Dreamers are those who were born elsewhere and brought here as children. Thus they may not remember their homeland (birth land) and only ‘know’ the USA as home.
What part of my statement are you responding to here, Mike? In other words, what are you correcting? Was it the parenthetical comment about “never even visited?” To clarify, “never even visited….since they crossed over as an infant or toddler.” I’m not sure what you and Debbie are reading among my numbered comments that gave you the impression I was talking about anything other than “Dreamers who were born elsewhere and brought here as young children.” Is it Point 4? I was assuming these were children that were *not* born on US soil, but were brought here as very young… Read more »
I was thinking the same thing as Bill when reading your comment Rick.
Pertaining to #3: I don’t believe any solution offered by Congress will be a continuing open door for Dreamers. In fact, the term “Dreamers” may cease to exist after the current group is given some sort of legalization. I think most members of both parties (well, not the grand standers) want to simultaneously solve the current situation (11M illegal immigrants / 1M Dreamers) while devising a comprehensive plan to reduce future illegal immigration. If you remember, a comprehensive plan was in the works by the Gang of 12 before ideologues of both parties killed it. So, the option is to… Read more »
Amen, Amen, Amen Eric. And for those who think Trump “did the right thing”, I would disagree. Threatening to deport innocents who were here as children, most from newborn to 10 years of age, this is nothing but blackmail using the Dreamers as bait. Meanwhile the Dreamers are scared, so scared that most cannot concentrate on their studies or jobs. This is so wrong on so many levels. People are not poker chips or bait. These are human beings being threatened to have everything torn away from them and throwing them into a situation I am certain that none of… Read more »
Rick, How, in any shape or form, does this resemble the character of God, as fully revealed in Christ? How, in any shape or form, does deporting Dreamers who have known no other country but this one, resemble the character of God, as fully revealed in Christ? Is the conservative mindset now to punish children for the sins of their parents? The counsel of Scripture tells us to care for and provide for the foreigner and the stranger. This brings up a larger issue for me. I’m 33. I’ve been pastoring full time for 11 years. I’ve served from the… Read more »
“There is a strong movement in the SBC that blindly weds Christianity with ‘Republican politics.’ I used to say conservative politics – but Trump proved that principled conservatism was never the issue – political power was and is.”
This is absolutely true.
Q1. It upholds the rule of law in a just and orderly society. A criminal cannot break into my home with his children and become a rightful resident of my house. Neither can a criminal break into my country with his children and become residents of my country. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Q2. Sin has consequences. The young man whose father murders his mother and goes to jail for life will experience pain and suffering because of the crime of his father. Make no mistake, such a scenario grieves me. But it does not imply a specific reward as compensation.… Read more »
Your statement about the GOP and the SBC could not be more true. Especially considering the way the SBC forced Dr. Moore to back down after Jack Graham threatened to withhold his money and the way Robert Jeffriess is nothing but a mouthpiece for our President.
It’s been bad in years past, but now it’s a total sell out that is costing us our witness in the larger culture.
“and I hope and pray there are more of us.”
Eric: I dare say you are the majority.
Rick: I just don’t see how you can know the true facts of who the Dreamers are and why they are in this country and be able to justify your points. I just don’t see how.
Some traditionalists have said not to think with emotion but use facts, but I think both are important. Emotions and facts. But whose facts are you reading?
Yes, that is an absolutely true statement.
I was referring to Bill Mac’s affirmation of Eric’s statement:
“There is a strong movement in the SBC that blindly weds Christianity with ‘Republican politics.’ I used to say conservative politics – but Trump proved that principled conservatism was never the issue – political power was and is.”
“Rick: I just don’t see how you can know the true facts of who the Dreamers are and why they are in this country and be able to justify your points. I just don’t see how.” Prior to Obama’s 2012 DACA Act, the children of illegal immigrants were not granted the right to live, work and study in the US legally. Five years ago, Obama granted the children of such *criminal trespassers* a benefit that perhaps he should never have granted. In fact, Congress has repeatedly refused to pass the act that gave the Dreamers their name—the “Development, Relief and… Read more »
Rick, your point that “A criminal cannot break into my home with his children and become a rightful resident of my house” is helpful in clarifying part of the issue. You say, “Neither can a criminal break into my country with his children and become residents of my country.” In the end, though, I think it reveals that the average person doesn’t see these two acts as equivalent. If someone is breaking into my or your home, we will likely call 911. But have we called ICE or DHS or whoever we could call to report criminals breaking into our… Read more »
With all respect Rick, I believe you are creating some false equivalencies. The act of illegally entering the country and the act of breaking and entering someone else’s house are both illegal, to be sure. But the equivalence stops there. One is a felony, the other is a misdemeanor. A felony is a crime punishable by at least one year in a state or Federal prison, while a misdemeanor–which also includes such “crimes” as jaywalking and running a red light–has much lighter penalties, not to mention differences in motive and criminal intent. Because of this, it is also false to… Read more »
John, 1. BOTH ILLEGAL “The act of illegally entering the country and the act of breaking and entering someone else’s house are both illegal, to be sure.” I’m with you so far. 2. DIFFERENT DEGREES “One is a felony, the other is a misdemeanor… [and] has much lighter penalties.” Well, felony or misdemeanor, this link describes the penalties for illegal entry: http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html They still seem rather significant to me—more than jaywalking and running red lights. 3. CHILDREN OF CRIMINALS “It is also false to equate the children of illegal immigrants with the children of…other felons.” Says you. Yes, their parents… Read more »
OK Rick, here is my point-by-point analysis: 1) No disagreement. 2) You still want to equate a felony with a misdemeanor because the penalty for illegal immigration “. . . still seem(s) rather significant to me—more than jaywalking and running red lights.” OK, let’s talk penalties. I read the article you referenced, and what stuck out to me was that the penalty “can be fines or imprisonment up to 6 months.” The key words here are “CAN BE.” My police and investigative experience is in Talladega, Birmingham, and Montgomery. People do not go to jail there for jaywalking or running… Read more »
I think both Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump when describing DACA seemed to emphasize that it was full of adults yet did not mention that they came to the United States as children. That seemed to take away this fact. They were children, minors. They know no other country but the United States. Also to be in the DACA program one cannot have done any crimes or have a criminal record which goes contrary to Jeff Sessions saying that DACA compromises national security. That is simply not true. These two points among a few others were very troubling to me… Read more »
In this link from Paul Littleton on Facebook:
“The DACA program was instituted by Obama after Congress repeatedly failed to pass the so-called DREAM Act that would have created a path to citizenship for some brought to the United States as children.”
http://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/spinning-facts-daca/
And president Obama did say that DACA was to be temporary and Congress should pass proper legislation to give them a path to citizenship if they maintained their place under the DACA guidelines.
I guess the hope would have been for Congress to pass legislation before DACA was done away with. And the hope now is that they will before the 6 months is up.
“They tell me that if Evangelical pastors and churches would speak, then they would have cover to act on behalf of DREAMers.”
What do they mean by “have cover”? If this is a matter of compassion and the right thing to do, why do they need cover? Where’s the integrity to stand up and do what they believe is right, regardless if anyone else does or cover is not given?
Jon, not to be too cynical, but we are talking about Congress. Now both parties have to worry about their fringes trying to primary them out of office. In the case of Republicans in strong Republican districts, they have to worry about the nativist branch pushing a primary challenge. On the other side, left center Democrats have to worry about full blown socialists attacking them from the left.
Ideological Purity is all the rage now. Moderation is anathema.
In lacking the integrity to do what one knows to be right just to keep their job, I say replace them. If you let them stay you know what you are getting… someone who needs your cover to be able to use you as the reason they made a decision they would not have made without you.
Yeah – we’re taking about Congress.
I mean that they want to work with people in their district and not be the only ones to speak. The reality is that every poll everywhere shows 55-85% of people (depending on the state) want legalization for Dreamers. But, the majority is often not as loud as the 10-25% who want them deported. Those people are constant with their calls for deportation. So, the Congressmen are asking that the people who think these young people should stay actually speak up. If all they hear from are the “deportation” crowd, it makes everything harder. This is just basic representative politics… Read more »
Alan,
One quick note… is that whatever the plight of the “Dreamer” ends up with respect to whether they remain in limbo (Obama’s directive), become legalized (neo-amnesty with perks through Congress), or systematically removed in order to follow the law of the nation (existing laws on the books), the church can be there to help, love, and share the gospel. The great commission is something the church can do in all three of those scenarios… that will never change.
Alan, Great comment and for the church isn’t the GC our charge?
The Great Commandment? Love your neighbor as you love yourself? Yes.
And the other GC as well, of course. It all works together.
Alan – Yes. To say we love them but don’t share Jesus is not the kind of love God was speaking of… I don’t think.
Just curious. How many of you here are out of work because an illegal immigrant took your job or got a job you were in line for? How many of you have been assaulted or burgled or in some way violated by an illegal immigrant? Now of course illegal immigrants get jobs that citizens could theoretically get and of course some of them commit crimes, including violent crimes. And of course we need immigration restrictions and border security. But this just seems like such a small issue compared to what other things the nation is facing. Is it a problem?… Read more »
I must say, I have never nor do I know anyone who has ever had a job “taken” from an immigrant or robbed/harmed by an immigrant.
Well said, Bill.
And what does that have to do with the legality of this situation? Do we have laws to follow? Is it OK to ignore them because it doesn’t suit us?
Work to pass legislation. This is not that difficult of a solution with the exception of the Congress.
Jon: They were and are following the law. They are illegal in the sense that they cannot get citizenship as DACA specifies. They are not breaking any law until now since Trump did away with it.
These are a whole different set of circumstances. They are following the law. They pay taxes, they cannot get welfare. No one has suffered because a Dreamer has gotten a job, paid over 11 billion in taxes and is a productive student, worker.
Debbie – your statements are incorrect. DACA has never been law. It was an executive order that gave reprieve to a group of people and has never made anyone legal so Trump not wanting to continue Obamas executive order is not making anyone illegal – because according to actual law they always have been. Now, do we need to change the actual law – I think we do – I don’t want to see these people deported – The only way to do that is to actually have Congress do their job and pass a bill that the president can… Read more »
*It was an executive order that gave enforcement reprieve…
OK then rules David Cline. Is that better?
My point in using the word laws David Cline, is that they are law abiding people who are not criminals. They go to school, they work, they pay taxes. And they have not broken our laws.
The system is in bad need of repair it stinks – but the dreamers have in fact broken our current laws.
Many of them have intentionally used fake ID’s, obtained SS cards and drivers licenses fraudulently (as adults) – these acts are illegal too – and show some sort of conscienceless of wrongdoing…
I think congress should fix immigration law by, among a great many other things, create a path for speedy legalization of the dreamers thus allowing them to stay until they obtain citizenship (if they desire) by way of the same path as others immigrants seeking citizenship.
That is speedy path to legalization for dreamers *currently here* – Congress has gotta find a way to turn off the spigot though.
David Cline: I don’t believe your accusations against the Dreamers for a second. Do you have a link or a source for your accusations? I find them to be utterly poppycock.
https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2017/06/09/justices-state-cannot-prosecute-immigrant-using-fake-id/385549001/
Older one: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/us/foreigners-obtain-social-security-id-with-fake-papers.html
And outside of links… It is common sense that fake IDs and Social Security cards are being used by illegal residents … Otherwise they would not be able to get the “productive jobs ” that so many people say that the dreamers have – as one can’t be hired without demonstration of being a citizen or legal resident with such identification.
I put two links in a comment above… But it is awaiting moderation – I had forgotten that you can’t put two links in the same comment…
Anyway here’s another:
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/
David C: Those articles are just hard for me to believe considering that Dreamers cannot commit a crime and stay in DACA. If there are indeed that many who stole SS numbers, that is almost everyone in DACA and I just can’t buy that.
I think Dreamers are law abiding and that they or their parents or guardians would not steal identities when the program allows them to work, get driver’s licenses etc. They do not have social security numbers and they are undocumented. They work within DACA.
But employers are not legally allowed to hire persons without SS numbers and proof of legal residences.
Unless all the employers are breaking the law – the only other option is that these persons presented persons have used fraudulent documentation.
The Atlantic article defies your assumption and is hardly a bastion of Trump talking points.
As to your ” that didn’t happen, because it would be a crime” – the article from Iowa demonstrated that state governments are forbidden by the courts from prosecuting identity fraud, false drivers license is, False Social Security numbers for illegal immigrants.
Dave, Dreamers have real SS numbers and work authorizations if they have DACA. That is what DACA is. Dreamers with DACA are not working under fake numbers. They aren’t working illegally at this point.
I would argue that they are working illegally as they are illegally here in the first place –
They are working with “permission” from the Obama administration and are still illegal immigrants.
I support actually making the current dreamers (and current ones only not future ones) legal residents through legislation while the dreamers pursue either permanent residency or citizenship through the means that everyone else who obtains these does.
Dave, They might have been brought here illegally, but they are working legally. First the Obama, then the Trump Administration, has issued work permits to them. When Trump had every opportunity to revoke DACA in January, he did not do so and continued to give out SS numbers and work authorizations. He told Dreamers with DACA they had nothing to worry about as recent as June. And, the government kept giving out more and more authorizations. So, they were not working illegally under any definition. Their immigration status falls under unlawful presence, which is a misdemeanor, but any immigration action… Read more »
Maybe if the question was asked… If an illegal did not get the job… who would have? I’m not speaking against the illegal here but asking the question from a different angle. Does it really matter if we know someone or not? For many, it is a judicial issue.
I don’t know anyone who was murdered, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, nor should be looked at differently than what it is.
“For many, it is a judicial issue.” For many, it an America for Americans issue. As I said, it’s a problem. But it’s not the monumental problem that the far right is making it out to be. Immigrants are easy targets for the ire Americans feel, as they always have been. It was the Jews, and the Irish, and then the Japanese. Now it’s hispanics. Dislike of the unlike is an all too easy fallback position. It’s ok if we go to them (as missionaries, aid workers, etc), but we don’t want them coming to us. We love them as… Read more »
And Jon, yes, we ignore the laws we don’t like. Let’s not pretend we don’t.
Bill,
Is it right to ignore the laws?
You’ll have to ask the people who ignore them. You can find them on any highway. You can ask Joe Arpaio as well.
You can also ask the Bundys, the darlings of many on the right.
I live in one of those states being overrun by illegal aliens. Yes, we do experience the crime and yes, we do see the jobs being taken. But ICE doesn’t want to know, the local PD can’t ask status, the schools and human services cannot keep up and are running dry on money but cannot refuse service or ask status. So yeah, it is a big deal. But our understanding out here on the front line is that in 6 months it isn’t deportation that begins, but a 24 month weaning off the public spigot. Federal aid in various forms… Read more »
Sarah, I notice that you avoided naming the state that is being over run with illegals. This makes me wonder if you are a troll?
I don’t buy Sarah’s comment either Bennett.
I think it’s interesting you call us Liberals David W. Although anymore that is a compliment.
Personally, I wish we’d give these Dreamers a path to citizenship. And, if they take that path, then great. If they don’t, then deport them.
But, it’s interesting that liberals say that we can’t blame Dreamers for being illegal, because their parents brought them here. So, it’s not their fault. But, those same liberals blame every White person for slavery!!! And, White people, today, have to apologize for slavery and for segregation and for any other racist thing that was done in the past. Interesting. Very interesting.
Just thinking out loud,
David
David – It’s all about getting votes. If 10 million conservative Canadians moved south to the USA and the D- knew they would vote R- if, given the chance, there would be an uproar about how illegal they are.
Too many on the left are gobsmacked.
True
Jon, So, the whole impetus to legalize Dreamers is “all about getting votes” for the Left? You sure do seem to know a lot about the motivations of people. And quite a bit about immigrants in America, legal or otherwise. As for “ignoring the law,” I’m not sure who you’re directing that toward. It seems like “the law” figures prominently in all of these discussions. We’re asking that the law be changed, which is quite different from “ignoring the law.” Dreamers have availed themselves of DACA, which was a deferring of the application of immigration law toward them – again,… Read more »
Allen, I’m simply saying… follow the law or change it.
The voter comment is my conspiracy theory, which I think to be true.
Jon said, “Allen, I’m simply saying… follow the law or change it.” Actually Jon, I think you’re saying a lot more than that, especially since every time we bring up changing the law you put forward arguments against that. You don’t come across as neutral … at all. I’m not criticizing you for having your opinions. That is what the discussion is for. As for following the law, those calling for a change in the law are following the law. As for Dreamers, they came forward and availed themselves of the protections offered. We are citizens and have every right… Read more »
Allen – Jon said, “Allen, I’m simply saying… follow the law or change it.” Actually Jon, I think you’re saying a lot more than that, especially since every time we bring up changing the law you put forward arguments against that. Jon now says… I went back and reread all my comments and did not find one that showed me making an argument against changing the law. At the end of one of my comments I stated… “Work to pass legislation. This is not that difficult of a solution with the exception of the Congress.” Allen says – As for… Read more »
Nice try at deflecting the issue, David.
In defense of Jon, one would have to be very naïve to believe that the Left sees the continued importation of high levels of immigration and the legalization of immigrants who are not here legally as part of their electoral strategy. I would be surprised if anyone here would deny that. California is exhibit A. But it is not correct to assume that only those on the political Left support the legalization of many who are here illegally and/or continued high rates of immigration. There are many motivations at issue. Some people may not be politically active but want to… Read more »
No limiting principle? Secure the border and enforce immigration laws. Dreamers were BROUGHT here as children. They aren’t making the choices to come here. So, one can’t decide to come here as an adult and then qualify for it. Compassion is a pretty good reason to do a lot of things. I don’t think it is a lesser motivation. As I actually talk with people on the Left on this issue, I’ve never heard the “future voters” argument. I’ve basically heard moral arguments of right/wrong and arguments about human rights. Unless everyone is lying and just promoting a faux rationale,… Read more »
Louis,
Sound reasoning.
David R. Brumbelow
Alan: I agree with much of what you said in response, except the issue of a limiting principle. You say that you have little interest in how many come here. I believe you. I don’t think you care about that. But that is what I am talking about. I do have an interest in that. How that is dealt with is very important to many. Why would it not be a good idea to let them stay as workers, under green cards, paying a special tax annually, but not qualifying for citizenship? That would please the people you have spoken… Read more »
Louis, you misread what I said. I didn’t mean that I have no interest at all in whether or not we have borders. I mean that I’m not advocating for more or less immigrants to come from a moral/religious perspective. I’m focused on those already here. In talking about Dreamers, I’m not trying to talk about the whole thing. Those are separate discussions that involve economic and political considerations. I’m not focused on that right now. I’m focused on the people here and how we treat them.
Alan: I did read you literally – “I have little interest in how many come here.” It’s fine if you do have an interest in that question, but I have no idea what it is. And your statement that “I’m not focused on that right now” is consistent with that, and I understand that. I totally get that you are focused on what you perceive to be the humanitarian issues. I buy into that in lots of ways. There is much the church can do just to help people. But the former DACA folks – the help involves not just… Read more »
Louis, I don’t believe that the 1986 amnesty was responsible for what happened over the past 30 years. You’re putting all of the blame on those who came. I’ve yet to see anyone seriously talk about blaming the employers who hired them, the consumers who wanted cheap tomatoes and who were fine with hiring contractors who employed cheap illegal immigrant labor to put roofs on our houses, etc. We provided the market, employers hired them, the government looked the other way, but we can only find the moral clarity to blame the immigrants who came illegally. That is wrong, and… Read more »
I’ve always contended that employers who hire illegals should be strongly punished.
In fact, aren’t there are unenforced laws on the books that would do that.
If we cut off their ability to get a job without coming here legally – that would help dry up illegal immigration.
Agreed. Stop doing business with anyone who uses illegals, and the problem is solved in a very short time. Indicate to your suppliers that you are willing to pay much higher prices for much of your goods and services. Problem solved. If you are also concerned about overseas outsourcing, stop shopping at Walmart.
Bill,
And how is one to know if the businesses one frequents are using illegals?
Mike: Good question. It would take some research certainly. But if one is really up in arms over illegal immigration, they’ll take the time.
Thanks, David.
I have avoided this discussion generally because it tends to sound like who is “right” and who is “wrong.”
On policy issues such as this, there is often not really a clear right or wrong.
Alan:
Agree completely regarding your comments about business and consumerism.
But the 1986 amnesty incentives not only the immigrants but also those on this side of the border who want high levels of immigration.
If securing the border is important to folks, support for the wall and mandating the use of e-verify are tools that will help.
The President may negotiate to get those items in exchange for favorable treatment of the DACA folks.
See, Border Security, E-Verify, deporting criminals, fining/imprisoning abusive employers – those are all actions that a government can take to address this problem that do not target vulnerable victims of the broken system.
That is my issue. When all you do is go after the undocumented immigrants already here – especially the kids brought here when they were young – you are no longer operating in a moral or ethical space … especially when there are things you can do first that are just.
Alan,
The way I see the situation is that anyone who is pro-life would want families to stay together and live where they at least have a half way chance to support their families. Today, we pick and choose the meaning of pro-life, and if we pick and choose that meaning we are truly not pro-life but only pro-birth.
Part of the problem in addressing this with existing law is that the illegal aliens already here are NOT all employed. Many have come with “farming the government” the ONLY job they intend to take. Add to that, where I live, the very real issue of the drug cartels importing labor for their mj grows IS a problem. If only it were just a matter of a relatively small number of hardworking kids seeking educations and jobs. It isn’t. And when we become emotional about kids being deported to a country they cannot remember, to a language they do not… Read more »
Sarah, Your assumption that none of us are “on the front lines” and are just speaking from middle class “ivory towers” is inaccurate. Border states are not the only “front lines” in this. Many people who read and comment here are directly involved in community ministry and work with immigrants, the poor, and those connected to this debate in a close way. Let’s not assume that we are all just speaking without knowledge. If you want everyone deported, you have every right to advocate for that, as you are currently doing. “Raising prices on goods and services” will indeed affect… Read more »
Sarah: I just can’t buy your scenario considering what is required to stay in DACA and research that shows those in DACA and immigrants in general, both legal and illegal are law abiding citizens, more so than Americans. They have less incarceration rates and less incarceration rates than Americans.
http://thehill.com/latino/324607-reports-find-that-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-us-born-citizens
That last sentence should be less crime rates than Americans.
“Sessions: We are a people of compassion and we are a people of law. But there is nothing compassionate about the failure to enforce immigration laws. Enforcing the law saves lives, protects communities and taxpayers, and prevents human suffering. Failure to enforce the laws in the past has put our nation at risk of crime, violence and even terrorism. However, according to the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, those who committed “a felony offense, a significant misdemeanor offense, or three or more other misdemeanor offenses” are not eligible for DACA. Neither are those who pose a public safety threat, which “include,… Read more »
Debbie – “As we wrote in February, numerous studies have found that immigrants do not commit crimes at a higher rate than non-immigrants.” What the studies fail to say (intentional or not)… Every crime committed by an illegal immigrant against a person… business… ________ … would not have have been committed here if the illegal immigrant were not here. The survey attempts to make it sound like having less a crime rate among illegal immigrants is ok because it is better than being higher. I am not sure if any person… business… ________ … who has had a crime committed… Read more »
John: As tragic as this situation is, we are talking about Dreamers. You can’t name one tragic crime and paint all with a broad brush. I think you know this.
Debbie, I know what the discussion is. I responded to your words. Is the studies you reference speak of dreamers? If not, then you introduced the broader topic, not I. If you want to speak to dreamers, then please do.
Alan,
What is a good response to those who make the comment: Immigrants have had many years to become citizens of this country, why didn’t they?
Jess,
If you are talking about DACA immigrants then there has been no path, as in zero chance, for them to become citizens, I do believe
Mike White,
Thanks for the information!
Are all the “kick them all out” folks in favor of punishing those who hire illegals as harshly as punishing illegals themselves?
A fair question asked very unfairly. The phrase “”Kick them all out” folks”… doesn’t say you want to discuss this but to try and start a back and forth with name calling up front.
It would be like me asking… Would all (especially Bill Mac) the “I hate the Constitution and any type border for the USA” folk want to meet with me to keep Robert E Lees statue from being removed?
If you’re not in favor of kicking them all out, then the question isn’t for you. I frankly don’t care if Lee’s statues stay or go, but from what I’ve read, Lee would be horrified that there are statues of him. He was not in favor of memorializing the war. I think many folks look at Lee with rose colored glasses, but he was wise about this. In our system of jurisprudence, we typically punish all complicit parties in a crime. We should punish those who hire illegals every bit as harshly as the illegals themselves. Like Dave says, dry… Read more »
I’m not a “kick em all out” guy but I do support E-verify requirements and punishments for employers who hire illegals.
In order to “fix” illegal immigration problems – once required facet is to deal with the “demand/reward” for illegal immigrants.
I’m only against illegal immigration.
In John 8 Jesus was presented with an unsolvable conundrum. The Pharisees had him in that he had to either uphold the law and stone the woman -which would cause the crowds to walk away defeated and resigned to hopelessness- or he had to reject the law showing that he was a sinner against God’s standards. Of course, he saved the woman and didn’t violate the law. He is Jesus after all and the crowds and we can have hope! In reading this comments stream I am discouraged to think that anyone non-believer would rightly see that we are people… Read more »
Strider – Why stop at Dreamers? Why not support open borders for all who are hopeless and in need of mercy, hope, and compassion? Or do we limit this compassion, mercy, and hope to only those who are here already and to all who long to be here… hurting…. oppressed… just wanting a better life. Do we say – stay away. My point is: for the sake of the gospel, do we really stop with what we have here? When we rescue a Dreamer from deportation and they have family who would benefit from being here, do we tell that… Read more »
Jon we don’t know each other or you probably wouldn’t ask me that! I agree with Frank Zappa who said that politics is the entertainment arm of the military industrial complex. You don’t talk politics in the UAE. You preach the truth. That’s what we need to do. Alan has suggested we stand up for the oppressed. I agree. But only as far as writing congress goes. Passed that and we cooperate with oppression. To be salt and light we must speak out publicly and privately. We must be the Good Samaritan. We must represent His Kingdom where He is… Read more »
Strider: That is a great point – political opinions apart from the Gospel. In the grand sense, we cannot, as all of life is dedicated to Christ. But I think wisdom would have us recognize that not all questions are that important, and the answers to questions are not always clear. If we don’t hold those truths also, we are both unwise and proud. For example, does the Gospel mandate that I have an opinion about whether a minimum lot size in a political jurisdiction should be 10,000 square feet or 15,000 square feet. Does Jesus care? Is this related… Read more »
Louis, I love the way you state that I make a great point and then nullify it. Your comment is an tried and true argument and usually works. I have been reading Tolstoy lately. In his book ‘The Kingdom of God is Within You’ he argues that any time we cooperate with political authorities we disobey Christ command of non-violence since all earthly governments use violence to stay in power. Matthew 5 is clear and usually shoved in a corner, vs 39 ‘Do not resist the one who is evil’. Jesus goes on to give very specific examples. We reply… Read more »
There are oppressed people but I wouldn’t call dreamers oppressed. At most you might say they are oppressed if they end up being deported in the future. Are they worried? Sure. But so are a lot of people about a lot of things. I’m frankly not too concerned. Only about 12% (from what I hear) want dreamers deported, so that only about half of Trump’s base of support. I think he’ll find a way to let them stay.
The one group of immigrants that weren’t oppressed by Americans, but leave it to us, we seem to have become a equal opportunity immigrant destroyer with no one left out of the destruction.
Of course Tolstoy *almost* completely renounced the refinements and inducements of the world system – actually leaving family behind (with the exception of one daughter) traveling around as a Christian monk. In fact many of his experiences to find peace parallel Siddhartha Gautama, including the title of Tolstoy’s work “The Kingdom of God Is Within You”. Gautama found that peace could not be found among the pleasures of the world, utilizing asceticism, meditation, and non-violence as the means to the goal – something that in latter life Tolstoy embraced within a Christian umbrella. Weather it was totally Christian or not… Read more »
Rob: I am not expert on Tolstoy, but I have enjoyed Strider and you bringing him up. Interesting stuff. In a related matter, the term “social justice” gets thrown around a lot. The people who often use the term “social justice” today use it to advocate for more government action to address what they perceive as inequity, not justice. That is actually the opposite of the how the term came to be. The term actually meant the exact opposite of government action. Government, it was recognized, was charged with dispensing justice. But there were some areas of life outside the… Read more »
Strider:
You do make a good point, but there are lots of points to be made. No?
There are no such things as “Gospel Issues.” If the Bible said so, I would totally buy into that. Polemics are not the same as commands, no matter how many times people repeat them.
Debbie, I lived next door for two years to folks in the cartel–and Dreamers. Didn’t know about either part of their life til the grow was raided and they fled for the Midwest. I live on one of the “major drug trade artery” interstate highways in the southwestern/mountain region of the US. I trust my own eyes and ears more than I trust statistics of who got convicted. Statistics report convictions. We live with the arrested but released, the got roughed up for getting in trouble, and bury the got killed in revenge rather than got arrested and convicted. If… Read more »