Here is a great quote on legalism from Chuck Swindoll:
“The problem with legalists is that not enough people have confronted them and told them to get lost. Those are strong words, but I don’t mess with legalism anymore. I’m 72 years old; what have I got to lose? Seriously, I used to kowtow to legalists, but they’re dangerous. They are grace-killers. They’ll drive off every new Christian you bring to church. They are enemies of the faith. Other than that, I don’t have any opinion!
So, if I am trying to force my personal list of no-no’s on you and make you feel guilty if you don’t join me, then I’m out of line and I need to be told that.”
Chuck Swindoll
As most of you know Southern Baptist are quite known for being legalistic. When I read quotes like this it breaks my heart and makes me cringe, knowing my convention is known for legalism and that the quote above too true.
Matt, what is “legalistic” in your view? That quote doesn’t make me feel too keen either. There are times folks have accused me of legalism, yet I do not see myself as legalistic. I see myself as seeking to “imitate good” 3 John 11, “working out my salvation”, “setting” myself “apart”, “eagerly” pursuing and seeking “to acquire” the “love” described in 1 Corinthians 13, and “earnestly” desiring to “cultivate the spiritual endowments”. Is this legalism? I do not for a second think these things save me. I think they are part of “observing all things” which Christ showed us to… Read more »
I will tell you what legalism is like and why it is so hateful. When my mother rededicated her life after my sister’s conversion who had been influenced by our grand father’s renewal, the church where she attended would not even let her work in the nursery, because she had been married three times. Twice was beyond the bounds in the fifties and three made one a scarlet letter person. Yet my mother contributed two babies to that nursery, and her son would be called to preach and hr daughter would marry a preacher. fter that her two grandsons would… Read more »
No one thinks of themselves as legalistic, but what I have found is that we all are in some areas.
I have to echo Matt here. Legalists never think they are. (however denying you are a legalist doesn’t mean you are one). When they come against things like alcohol, tobacco, gambling, cards, dancing, movies, voting for Democrats, etc. they all believe they are standing upon clear biblical principals and (and here’s what makes them legalists) that everyone else needs to follow their example. Legalism is personal conviction made Law.
Bill, While I agree with you that legalism is personal convictions and preferences made law, I noticed that you tried to throw alcohol into that mix. Interesting. What I would say to you and Dr. Willingham is that things that are clearly taught in the Bible are not legalistic. That’s obedience. Whether you eat in restaurants that sell liquor, or you dont, that’s your own personal conviction. Whether you buy a big screen tv, or you think that it’s wrong to buy such luxories, is a matter of personal conviction. But, when the Bible clearly states things… then it’s not… Read more »
David: I didn’t try to throw alcohol in there. I did throw alcohol in there. I believe it is legalism to demand alcohol abstinence. You believe abstinence is clearly taught in scripture. I do not. I have brethren who believe dress codes for women are clearly taught in scripture. I do not. I have brethren who believe that the wearing of jewelry is clearly prohibited by scripture. I do not.
I quite enjoy debates about alcohol consumption vs abstention but I doubt Matt wants this thread to go in that direction.
Bill,
I dont think it’s really fair to call those of us, who believe that alcohol drinking for pleasure is foolish according to Proverbs, and that it’s sinful to be high, or drunk, on alcohol is sin according to Ephesians, legalistic. We’re just trying to be true to the Bible.
David
Matt, I have listened to and read Charles Swindoll for more years than most seminary students have had life. I recommend him, his radio broadcasts, his books. I imagine if he and I sat down and conversed about his statement, we would end up agreeing on the legalists he is referring to. I think Dr. Swindoll would also disagree with many who label others legalists. You are right that we all have a little legalism in us. However, I find it striking that we seem to have a cottage industry of those who feel called to call people names, in… Read more »
David: So am I.
Hey Volfan007, It’s been a long time since we’ve “chatted”. I hope you’ve been well. You said, alcohol drinking for pleasure is foolish according to Proverbs, and that it’s sinful to be high, or drunk, on alcohol is sin according to Ephesians You think a glass of wine is foolish according to Proverbs. That’s just fine. I disagree. Although I do agree with the later about being high or drunk is sin. I can live with those disagreements. However, David B. quote Patterson saying, …abstinence is not only wisdom but also a matter of obedience and holiness before God. This… Read more »
Legalism demands not only that the bible is true and infallible, but that my interpretation is also true and infallible. It judges that what is sin for me is sin for all. It refuses to deny itself alone but desires all others to deny themselves equally. It destroys grace and clouds the Gospel and it is precisely what Jesus came to set us free from.
David B: I too have listened to Chuck Swindoll longer than most seminary students. I have also read his books including the one he wrote on Grace and I would have to disagree with you. He would disagree with you.
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Bill,
So, would you say that lying might be wrong for you, but it would be ok for me? Or, that adultery might be wrong for you, but it would be ok for me? Or, is lying a sin against God? Is adultery a sin against God?
Debbie,
I, too, have listened to Chuck Swindoll many, many, many times. I have read many of his books. I like them. I think that they’re great. Dont you find it just a little bit interesting that legalists like David B. and me would like what Chuck Swindoll has preached and written?
David
David: Please don’t be absurd. Does God not convict people individually about certain things that may have a hold over their life, things that others do not struggle with, things that are not a sin, in and of themselves? See Paul for details.
david: To be honest? Yes. But I also think that it would convict you at some point.
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Bill, I think that if you read what I’ve written, you will see that I do agree that some things are left to personal conviction…the things that the Bible does not clearly teach about. For example: should a Christian go to a Casino to eat at the restaurants, or to see a show? or, not? Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian should not go to a Casino. But, many, many Christians would have a big problem going to one. They do not go. That’s fine. Some Christians dont see anything wrong with just going to eat at the… Read more »
David: I agree that the bible does deal with drinking fermented wine. I just don’t agree that it forbids it. I place drinking alcohol in the same category as eating at Casinos or listening to Allison Kraus. I do not place it on the same level as lying or adultery.
Volfan007,
Do you agree with the Patterson quote in my previous reply? Your earlier replies seems to hint that you don’t while the later ones that you do.
Curious.
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Mark, I think that it’s absolutely foolish for anyone to drink alcohol for pleasure. And, if someone is drinking alcohol for pleasure, then they are foolish and playing with fire. Mark, I believe that abstinence is the best thing…the holy thing. But, if someone is drinking alcohol for medicine….like in NyQuil, then, of course it’s not sinful. So, yea, I agree with Dr. Patterson up to a point, but I guess he and I are a slight sliver apart in another way. I think to drink the fermented wine and strong drink of today is foolish, and I really dont… Read more »
Better to be careful than sorry about matters of conduct. TheBible does command us to do so in so many words. While I think it is a serious problem that we have let the world set the agenda on the elements of communion at the same time, knowing the penchant of people to over-indulge, it would seem that caution is the better part of good sense. However, that does not countenance over-harsh judgments of those who are quite severe toward those who happen not to think as strictly as they do. Dr. James Willinghams last blog post..The Climax of the… Read more »
Dr. Willingham,
Your statement
is so true. People have the tendency to over-indulge in practically anything and everything. However, when singling out over-indulgence we tend to overlook our own short comings only to point out our pet-peeves.
Mark
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To Mark: It is extremely difficult to see our own short comings. However, the Lord does have a way of moving us to think outside of the box of our own narrow little perspective. Sooner or later the false outlook will collide with the wall of hard reality. Following the Lord is never easy in this world. In fact, it is so hard as to be down right impossible without Divine enablement. Our innate depravity continually confronts us. Still the main motive for the effort is simply gratitude. We must be grateful for the privilege of even trying, success being… Read more »
Just because some have the penchant to overindulge, does not mean that we add on where scriptures do not.
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Debbie said
Exactly!
Sometimes we play games of theological “gotcha”. For example, a beer is equated with a joint, but over eating (either now or in the past) is not allowed to be compared with overindulgence in alcohol.
I won’ t add to that. I hope everyone can figure it out. 🙂
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A beer is the same as a joint. They both make you high…artificially.
Eating two quarter pounders with cheese is not gluttony. Gluttony is sin. Eating until you are full is not sin. Gluttony is a person who lays around lazily…eating all the time…gorging themselves and drinking. That’s the sin of gluttony.
Do you know any gluttons in the SBC? Really?
David
It’s amazing to me how one can whittle down an exact amount of alcohol to qualify as drunkenness (like one beer), while continually suggesting that gluttony be this amorphous, ambiguous notion tucked safely away from all the overweight southern baptists running around. Gluttony is a sin, but no one seems to be committing it. It’s some lazy person no one knows that never leaves the couch and yet somehow has money to grow fat. Everyone knows overindulgence when they see it – whether it’s alcohol or twinkies. To suggest otherwise is just absurd. In the same way that some can… Read more »
Darby, So, every overwieght person is a glutton? Really? And, overweight according to who’s scale? And, at exactly what weight is one overweight? And, exactly how much food is too much? One might think that you are a little bit legalistic. Also, no one said that you are drunk on one beer. I said that a beer and a joint are just alike. You get artificially high on both of them. There’s no difference. Alcohol and weed are very similar. It always amuses me to hear someone boldly and arrogantly say, “Well, I might drink a beer or two every… Read more »
“So, every overwieght person is a glutton? Really? And, overweight according to who’s scale? And, at exactly what weight is one overweight? And, exactly how much food is too much? One might think that you are a little bit legalistic.” I never said that. I’m not the one who tries to codify these things. You are. I’m simply using your language and logic concerning drunkenness and applying it to gluttony. I personally challenge people to kill all the idols of their hearts with the gospel, not regulate their idolatry to a level that seems right to them – whether that… Read more »
Darby,
It’s not being legalistic to obey the Bible’s teachings out of love for Jesus, because you want to please your Lord. Are you antinomian?
David
I agree with you. It’s not legalistic to obey the Bible’s teachings out of love for Jesus. However, it’s legalistic to add to or take away from the Bible’s teachings, even if it’s for someone’s “own good.”
And no, I’m not antinomian. I just have new covenant theology sensibilities that some might equate with antinomianism. 🙂
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I thought this quote from an article about Laker’s star Lamar Odom brings out my point well. It must be Providence. This section is a quote from a physician concerning Odom’s sweet tooth: “Odom freely confesses that he just can’t help himself when it comes to the sweet stuff and always keeps a stash on hand of Gummi Bears, Honey Buns, Lifesavers, Hershey’s white chocolate, Snickers bars, cookies and more. He eats the sugary snacks morning, noon and night, and even says he sometimes wakes up in the middle of the night, chows down on some treats, then falls back… Read more »
Darby,
Comparing problems caused by alcohol to sugar does not even deserve a serious resonse.
David R. Brumbelow
Which is why you and not someone else has responded? 🙂
Darby Livingstons last blog post..A Scalpel or a Sword: Surgery or Slaughter?
Darby,
Good retort, and it may be true :-). But I still stand my my previous comment.
David R. Brumbelow
Well, at least I would still stand by my previous comment if I had spelled “response” correctly.
David R. Brumbelow
@volfan: Do you think Psalm 104:15 is foolish? You’ve acknowledged that you are a weaker brother on this issue by discussing your past relationship with alcohol and drugs. I’d like to encourage you to do a lengthy study about stronger brother/ weaker brother issues in scripture. You may not be able to drink wine for pleasure in this life, but in heaven we all will, and it will be wonderful. Just because you can’t have that legitimate pleasure in this world doesn’t mean you should go around denying it to everyone else. Now, I have a responsibility to keep you… Read more »
G F McDowell June 11, 2009 at 9:42 am @volfan: Do you think Psalm 104:15 is foolish? You’ve acknowledged that you are a weaker brother on this issue by discussing your past relationship with alcohol and drugs. Wow, this comment is crass, a direct accusation that a brother is weaker because of past sin. Actually we are all weaker brothers but your comment is a little much. My Lords blood shed for our sin was without leaven, pure and undefiled so the wine we take to represent His blood should be without leaven, pure and undefiled. Drink all you want,… Read more »
GF, Wow! Do you wear a cape and have SS on your chest? SS for Super Saint? How old are you, my friend? And, instead of answering your questions to me, and instead of telling you that I have read and studied on the passages of weaker/stronger brothers for hundreds of hours in my lifetime, I would encourage you to read Peter Lumpkins new book about Alcohol. It’s absolutely the best thing that you could possibly read about this issue. Now, I’m off to my secret lare to hide away until I can ensnare some other unsuspecting Christian, and ultimately… Read more »
Hello Bro? McDowell, I was wondering how you can comfortably teach Psalm 104:15 and advise young people who have never had any alcoholic beverages that it is okay in moderation when no one can ascertain if they will end up like Volfan from the result of the first drink? That a woman who is pregnant could transfer the Fetal Alcohol Syndrome to her child? What is moderation? How little “gladdens the heart” and how much saddens it and breaks it? I appreciate you taking time to log on and answer. selahV selahVs last blog post..ARE YOU VULNERABLE? Part 4….SAFEGUARD YOURSELF… Read more »
I must chime in… I can teach Psalm 104:15 because it is in the Bible. We should comfortably teach all of Scripture. I never touched alcohol until I was 21 years old. Why? because it would of been sin. Now, I personally, do not think Scripture prohibits drinking alcohol in moderation. How much is “in moderation?” The amount that doesn’t allow you to become drunk. This might be different for some people, but one Amber Bock with my steak does not make me in any way “drunk.” One Amber Bock does so little that if it is doing anything I… Read more »
If a christian is afraid that he might be a person that could become a drunkard it is wise for him to never touch the stuff.
How does the christian know this??/
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..There is a way that SEEMETH right to men. =-.
Matt, A woman can get FAS before she even knows that she’s pregnant. Do you think that God wants babies to have FAS? If not, how does your interpretation of wine in the Bible fit with the fact that FAS can occur before the woman even knows that she is pregnant. Also, I know of some people who turn into drunks after just one drink. How can you possibly say that the Bible teaches that it’s ok to drink in moderation if it leads to a person becoming an alcoholic? I can also teach Psalm 104:15. I would say that… Read more »
@volfan I need to apologize for causing you offense. Sorry about that. Online it is difficult to discern tone, and my remark about you being a weaker brother was not spoken in malice, or in an attempt to tear down my brother. I am a weaker brother in many issues, and I look forward to the day when sin will not plague my body. I don’t feel a need to address the substance of your post, however, because you did not explain how your position is possible in light of Psalm 104:15 and many other scriptures, and instead, you pointed… Read more »
43 G F McDowell
The issue is sin. Zero people are in Hell right now because of alcohol.
That is why legalism sends so many people to hell.
What is it that sends one to hell, legalism or sin.
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..There is a way that SEEMETH right to men. =-.
Jerry, right up above your question, I think I pretty comprehensively explained the relationship between legalism and eternal damnation. Legalism can be good at reducing CERTAIN TYPES of sin, but also breeds sinful pride. Legalism helps impart a proud, false assurance. I believe MOST people who go to hell don’t expect that that is their destination. Any time I’ve witnessed to people, they’ve stated some form of the point of view that they’re pretty decent people, and that they figure that if Hell even exists, they’d probably be able to avoid it because they’re not THAT bad. When we make… Read more »
GF, My closing paragraph to you was nothing more than a joke…a joke that showed that you were thinking that someone like me was the big, bad, Lex Luther of Christendom, who was trying to make all Christians legalist and do away with booze in the world. That’s all. Dont read so much into a sarcastic joke. Also, my brother, I do not believe that a person can go to Heaven by not drinking alcohol. Puleease. I also do not think that a person goes to Heaven by not committing adultery, by not lying, etc. Salvation is a gift of… Read more »
“How can you possibly say that the Bible teaches that it’s ok to drink in moderation if it leads to a person becoming an alcoholic?” Just because something can be perverted it is wrong? If a person is becoming an alcoholic, obviously, they should stop drinking. Those who have self-control can drink in moderation with no problems. This is not a big issue for me. I only have a drink when I want a beer, no different than wanting a Dr. Pepper. If I was ever to be employed by the SBC then I would happily never have an ounce… Read more »
Well, Hello Matt, you’re back addressing my comment. Thanks. Wish you’d go back to the first one I wrote and answer some of the questions I posed there. You say, “I can teach Psalm 104:15 because it is in the Bible. We should comfortably teach all of Scripture.” I agree with caveats. Scripture should be taught with the balance of the rest of Scripture which is full of warnings. When you “teach all of Scripture”, do you also warn that you do not have the ability to discern with any reasonable degree of certainty that the persons (teenagers, college students, husbands… Read more »
Matt,
I noticed, like Selah did, that you dodged the FAS thing?
Also, I would like for you to address all the questions that I asked you in the above comment from me. Pretty please?
David
Those wanting to drink alcohol (one beer with a steak) will only be convinced when someone they love is killed in a accident involving alcohol and some how leave a note saying, “Uncle so and so, I found the beer in your ice box and knew you would not mind if we took it to the lake with us, thanks you loving 16 year old neice, nephew, son,” or whatever. Eat drink and be merry folks, when you see Jesus offer him one of your Bud lights. .-= Jerry´s last blog ..There is a way that SEEMETH right to men.… Read more »
That argument is non sequitur. That is just like blaming gun crime on guns themselves. I think most folks around here believe that guns don’t kill people, rather, people kill people. Alcohol does not kill people. People kill people. Alcohol does not destroy lives; people do. If an alcoholic father beats his children with a baseball bat, it would make just as much sense to blame his sin on Louisville Slugger as it would to blame it on Bud light. No, we need to be absolutely clear; that man is responsible for his behavior. That is where the blame must… Read more »
Volfan, I wasn’t saying that Matt was “dodging” the FAS question. I was referring to my very first comment in this stream regarding the post. For a refresher I’ll paste it here: “Matt, what is “legalistic” in your view? That quote doesn’t make me feel too keen either. There are times folks have accused me of legalism, yet I do not see myself as legalistic. I see myself as seeking to “imitate good” 3 John 11, “working out my salvation”, “setting” myself “apart”, “eagerly” pursuing and seeking “to acquire” the “love” described in 1 Corinthians 13, and “earnestly” desiring to… Read more »
Matt, for the record, I know you addressed my first question but not the others. Thanks. selahV
[rq=2981,0,blog][/rq]ARE YOU VULNERABLE? Part 4….SAFEGUARD YOURSELF & OTHERS
Per Volfan: “Also, how in the Tennessee hills do you make the jump from recommending Peter Lumpkins book on alcohol to equating it with the Scriptures leaves me scratching my head big time.” That is certainly what it seemed to me you were doing. I posed a passage that seems to contradict your position. You pointed me towards, not a commentary that seeks to systematically and consistently interpret all of scripture, mind you, but a book that supports your position. I was arguing from the scriptures, and you were arguing from a book written by a man, and you were… Read more »
That is certainly what it seemed to me you were doing. I posed a passage that seems to contradict your position
This passage is supposed to contradict volfans position. What a stretch.
SelahV, I so often find myself on the same side of so many issues as you, and so I am a little sad that we are in disagreement on this one, but I want to honor your request to answer your questions. 1. I was wondering how you can comfortably teach Psalm 104:15 and advise young people who have never had any alcoholic beverages that it is okay in moderation when no one can ascertain if they will end up like Volfan from the result of the first drink? The same way I comfortably advise young people about human sexuality.… Read more »
54 G F McDowell June 11, 2009 at 2:59 pm
SelahV, I so often find myself on the same side of so many issues as you, and so I am a little sad that we are in disagreement on this one, but I want to honor your request to answer your questions.
Aw come on SelahV, McDowell wants you to join him in a cold beer. It saddens him to think you wont have a cool one with him.
Dear Bro. McDowell, I am sorry I am at such a disadvantage with you. You know the issues upon which we can hang our hats and I do not. Know, my gracious brother, that it saddens me too that we could not be in agreement with this one as well–especially since I see my Stetson with a bit paler shade of your two favorite colors. 😉 Although you have an advantage insofar as appreciation, I can still appreciate your views and more notably your tone in conversation. So yes, I am equally sorry we find ourselves on opposite sides of… Read more »
SelahV and David, I certainly was not dodging the question. Something else just stuck out to me and I decided to respond to it. There is no way I can ever respond to every point and question made in the blogosphere. I am going to answer your Question with another Question.. 🙂 You make FAS seem like it is something that happens all the time and is a major problem… If that is true, what about in Europe when you drink wine for almost every evening meal? Why dont we ever hear of all of the terrible cases of FAS… Read more »
GF, When you said,”I don’t think it was unreasonable of me to think you were elevating Lumpkin’s book above the plain teachings of scripture.” That’s about the stupidest thing I’ve read in a long time. I’m sorry to be so blunt, but this is just plain idiotic. Of course, I wasnt elevating Lumpkins book above the plain teachings of Scripture. Good grief, Charlie Brown! I do think that you can see much Scriptural evidence in his book for abstinence…much Scriptural support. And, what Selah told you was excellent about Psalm 104. BTW, I went to Logan’s Roadhouse in Paducah, KY… Read more »
Matt,
You and GF’s interpretation of Scripture is not only wrong, but it could lead to many babies getting FAS. And, it could lead to a lot of people getting hooked on the drug of alcohol.
I seriously wish that you would both reconsider what you believe about this issue, and what you might teach to others.
David
Volfan, some folks get happy when they are with their lovely wives. Don’t count. 🙂 selahV
[rq=4065,0,blog][/rq]ARE YOU VULNERABLE? Part 4….SAFEGUARD YOURSELF & OTHERS
Selah,
🙂 It counts with her, though!
I’ve got a great wife, and we dont need alcohol to be “happy.” We have the Holy Spirit inside of us instead. Amen, Selah?
David
“I’ve got a great wife, and we dont need alcohol to be “happy.” We have the Holy Spirit inside of us instead. Amen, Selah?”
Amen! I dont need alcohol to be happy either. I also dont need books to be happy. Just because we dont need them in order to be happy doesnt mean they are wrong and unnecessary.
And I don’t need blogs to be happy. Just think. Blogs are on the internet. So are SBC newspapers, etc. It has been shown that the internet THE place for pornography. All you could ever want. It’s a billion dollar industry. Marriages, families are destroyed because of it. Don’t we bloggers and commenters continue to draw people to the internet where they might be tempted to use it for things they shouldn’t?
Just what are we promoting?
[rq=4113,0,blog][/rq]IssuesEtc on Free Will
I’d rather be filled with the Holy Spirit than with alcohol.
David
David,
Mark makes a great point. He makes the same argument as you and yet you would reject it.
Also, “filled” means controlled. I can still be controlled by the Spirit while drinking an Amber Bock. 🙂
Matt, I really understand why you do not have time to answer all the questions in the blogosphere, Matt. But since I had a bit of time, I did a bit of research for you to answer your question on FAS in Europe. Did you know that according to Katy Jo Fox in her research in 1999 of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in Europe, that: “Twelve and a half percent of the world’s population live in Europe, Europe being defined as the countries from the Atlantic to the Urals, within the continent of Europe. Those twelve and a half percent consume… Read more »
SelahV,
No harm done. We are just having friendly dialogue. Your words have not come across negatively one bit!
Matt, No argument here. I’m just stating my thoughts and thinking you wanted to respond to mine as I responded to yours. But I didn’t know it would be so time consuming. Again, I’m sorry. Mark, great to hear your view. I’ll think about giving it up. Only thing is, I find I’m a light in the darkness here. Salt, ya know? And since I am advocating in all my walk as much as possible, I do try to bring glory to Jesus when I log on. I just can’t see much glory in agreeing to a glass of wine… Read more »
SelahV and David,
Just curious, what exactly do you do with Paul telling to drink wine for medical reasons? Is just social drinking wrong? Or drinking any alcohol for any reasons?
SelahV, How about the consequences of EVERYTHING we do that can lead to sin? You speak as if alcohol is the only thing people can and do abuse. You seem to take an all or nothing approach to alcohol. What else do you do this with? You can’t see much glory? Let me tell you about the glory of Jesus as seen in abstinence due to someone trusting in this type of “good” work. My dying grandmother is trapped in a legalistic works mindset. She doesn’t understand why she is suffering ’cause she’s never had any “alcohol or tobacco” in… Read more »
Mark, I am so sorry to hear of your beloved grandmother’s situation. That must hurt so much to think she is living with that kind of burden. Enslaved to a “religion” rather than freed to the abundant grace of God’s merciful love and forgiveness. My heart goes out to you and to her. Her because of her struggle; and you because of your love for her and desire to see her know the Christ of the Bible whose attoning work on the cross of Calvary releases her from such bondage. My prayers will include you and your grandmother as you… Read more »
Sister SelahV, Thanks for your prayers. We’ve spoke online before. I tried briefly to explain Calvinism. I’m “johnMark”. 🙂 One example of why I struggle with the way you come across at times concerning alcohol. Even in your gracious post above you said the following: With my views I no more offer condemnation of Matt, a brother-in-Christ who has an occasional beer with his steak, than the loved ones and friends I have who struggle with pornography, promiscuous living, arrogance, pride or self-control in relation to their anger with others who disagree with them. When you throw alcohol with dinner… Read more »
Matt, Drinking alcohol for recreational purposes…to just get high on alcohol…would be what the Bible calls “foolish” in Proverbs. Drinking alcohol for medicinal purposes would be fine…just like taking any other drug that the Dr. might prescribe. If the Dr. prescribes the drug of alcohol for you to take for some reason, then fine. But, to just drink alcohol to get high would be foolish, according to the Scriptures. And, of course, to get drunk on fermented wine is sin against a holy God, according to Ephesians. I just want to say, along with Selah, that I dont condemn Matt,… Read more »
Brother Mark, I love that! Sister SelahV…that’s sweet. Okay, let’s go back to the drawing board. I no more condemn Matt for drinking a beer with his steak than I condemn anyone for anything that I do not agree with. How’s that? Ya see, I wasn’t trying to draw the inference toward the action of a particular sin other than the sin of “condemnation”, judgement. I had someone in the blogosphere who never comes to my site, EVER, and judge me for a question I asked. It was quite sad, even silly. I am the chief of sinners and I… Read more »
Good afternoon, Matt! I don’t “exactly do” anything with Paul’s words. 🙂 But I would no more disagree with his position on drinking for medicinal purposes than I would with his words “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” Romans 14:21 If by my abstaining and saying I am abstaining and explaining why I am abstaining causes a brother to stumble, or offends him, or he is made weak by my position, then I will readily beg forgiveness. I pray I have not… Read more »
Selah, First, can you rub off some of your style of engagement and perspective on David007? His above reply challenge items that people are not pushing. To infer that I do not take my Savior’s grace upon my resurrected life and holiness seriously is just poor form and worse. To infer that I am endorsing antinominianism is just poor form and worse. And here we go again bringing up Calvinism. :::sigh::: That said, I understand your point better. I hope you understand where I was coming from. It was years ago where we interacted. You weren’t any meaner than you… Read more »
Brother Mark, I just cracked up! That is funny! “no meaner then than” I am” today”. That is funny. Gosh, I’m laughing so hard I can hardly type. hee hee hee. Oh my. Ya know…I was thinking about talking to Volfie about some of his commenting. Funny you should mention it. I was gonna have to go look up that big word, “antinomin–whatever”. That’s one of those mult-syllable words I was talking about in my post on SBC Blogging. Gotta go look it up and study it awhile, then come back and see how it fits in a current conversation… Read more »
LOL. Now I’m cracking up. Yeah, friends we can be.
Thanks for addressing 007. I understand his passion for his position. I really do. Hear the but? But that doesn’t mean he must not show grace and accuse me (those like me) of things we aren’t calling for.
Thanks!
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Should “Celebrity” Pastors Offer Disclaimers =-.
Brother Mark, have you noticed that you haven’t called me “Sister” since you admonished me for my faux pas in phrasing my position on not condemning Matt for his beer and steak? hee hee. I have. As for your “but” regarding Volfie. I know how you feel. Folks sometimes call me ungodly, sarcastic, biting and a legalist, Fundamentalist, Arminian, unregenerated de-formed soul when they read my comments and views on the blogosphere. And really, they don’t have any reason to do that. But it doesn’t stop them from doing it. And I’ve seen where folks call Volfie (and those like… Read more »
Mark,
I was not talking about Calvinists. I was talking about “young,” “Dortian,” Calvinists. I’m concerned that antinomianism is starting to creep into this crowd, and into the emerging crowd, in our SBC.
David
David, This is not meant to be an attack, but from where I stand I see a bunch of “young” Baptist Calvinists (Dortian or other) who are more heavily committed to Lordship Salvation and the denial of carnal Christianity than the several generations of Arminian Baptists before them. There seems to be a matter of reading (which is not ‘postmodernism’ or ’emergent’ but legitimate interpretive/pragmatic differences) on some aspects of holiness, but I want to puke every time I hear the charge of ‘antinomianism’ being raised against young Baptist Calvinists. We’re anything but. .-= Todd Burus´s last blog ..Cynicism and… Read more »
Todd,
I do not disagree that many non-Calvinists and Arminian types have been nearly antinomian with their view of I’ve been baptised, and I go to Church on Sunday, and I can live like I want the rest of the week. Sadly, yes, that’s true.
But, I’m seeing this promoted…even taught…by “young, Dortian Calvinists.” Not all of them…but a large number of them seem to be going this way…along with “young, emerging Pastors.” I could be wrong…but that’s the way it looks to me and some other people that I know and talk to.
David
David,
Again, I don’t mean to be mean, but could you provide examples of this for us? I will grant you that there are many “young, emerging Pastors” who are leading their followers towards antinomianism, but the ones I know of are barely even Christians much less Calvinists.
.-= Todd Burus´s last blog ..Cynicism and The Sinner’s Prayer- Paul’s Testimony =-.
Volf…I do understand what you mean. I think there is evidence on all sides that some folks think being saved gives them the ticket to live as they want. It’s so silly when the scripture clearly says otherwise. We are to deny ourselves, our desires, anything that comes between us and God…and yet, there are those who whitewash sin and rationalize sin and explain away sin as if it is the proverbial word-twisting of Satan in the Garden of Eden…and then not only are they taking a bite, but turning around and offering it to their “Adams” as tasty little… Read more »
Paul was a fan of moderation. The idea that moderation (as a concept) is incompatible with morality is incorrect.
David: By your definition, is what you call a Dortian Calvinist what everyone else calls a 5 point Calvinist (or just Calvinist)?
The moderationist position is not antinomian unless there is a law against drinking alcohol. Even David admits that there is not.
Bill, The Apostle Paul wrote, “For me to live is Christ, to die is gain.” There is nothing moderate about that statement. Living for Christ demands our entire heart, soul, mind, strength…it demands our setting aside our own whims and desires to love our neighbors as ourselves. Jesus Himself said to deny ourselves, if one asks us to walk one mile, then we are to walk two. Nothing moderate about that. Paul tells us to “Pray without ceasing.” What is moderate about that? We are told to do all things without grumbling or complaining? Does the Scripture tell us we… Read more »
Phillipians 4:5
Question: Do you sit down to that delicious loaf of Pepperidge Farms bread and eat the whole thing in one sitting? Do you watch television around the clock? Do you spend all your free time on the internet? Do you drink a gallon of tea all at once? If not, then perhaps you are a fan of moderation as well. Do you consider yourself a moral person (not perfect)? Then perhaps moderation and morality are not incompatible.
I assume you disagree with David that drinking alcohol is not, in itself, sinful?
Sirs: You folks fight with the gloves off. Not a good idea. What I would like to know is how they got drunk at what was suppose to have been Communion in I Cors.11, if they were not using wine? A friend who was raised an orthodox Jew told me that the cups which were used in the Passover were wine not grape juice. Now in so noting I am not insisting on unrestrained drinking, etc. But I have seen too much hypocrisy practiced by those abstainers to have much confidence in that view. You ought to have had the… Read more »
Dr. Willingham, I agree. Some men do fight with the gloves off. 🙂 And some women must use their nails to protect themselves. Again…I go back to Scripture. The man most noted as wise in the Bible says “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Prov. 20:1. Wine here is the same word as the wine that gladdens the heart, only one passage in context is surrounded with the blessing of God in its natural state of harvest and life provision…the other in its state of adulterated poisonous mockery. Three verses… Read more »
SelahV, Is this serious, that the stunning revelation that the Bible teaches abstinence from alcohol comes from the fact that Philippians 1.21 is “not a moderate” statement? Of course it’s not, but the question of moderation in living out Philippians 1.21 and moderation in drinking are not comparable statements because the word ‘moderation’ is being abused here. Think about it this way. Galatians 2.20 says, “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son… Read more »
Dr. Willingham, I’ve actually heard people argue that the Corinthians were getting drunk at home before coming to church, which hermeneutically holds about as much water as saying that all the favorable references to wine are unfermented, and all the unfavorable references are fermented wine. To paraphrase Dr. Mohler, If you can prove that Jesus turned water into unfermented grape juice, then I can prove he turned it into Diet Coke.
Once again, if you will read Peter Lumpkins new book….he will answer all of your questions and statements a lot better than I can. And, answer them with Scripture and historical context, he does. Now, of course, I seriously doubt that some of you will be open to believing what he says….your minds are already made up. Some of you wont even read it, because you dont want to know something that disagrees with what you have learned from someone. Soooo… And, Todd, the evidence that it’s the Dortian Calvinists who are leading this moderation drinking view charge is so… Read more »
David: I’m sure many of us on the moderation side are happy that Peter has had a book published. It is a lot of work and a great accomplishment. But Peter’s book is not the end of the alcohol debate, and I doubt he expects it to be. We on the moderation side, instead of presenting the scriptural support for our argument, could simply say “If you would just read God Gave Wine, by Ken Gentry, all your questions would be answered”. In the end we just end up throwing books at each other. I don’t want to pester, but… Read more »
David,
Do you take believing that alcohol can be consumed in moderation as being synonymous with antinomianism? That’s a pretty extreme claim and I highly doubt we will find many people here on board with such an unscriptural stance. That said, I wasn’t looking for examples of young Calvinists who support and teach moderate drinking, I was looking for examples of young Calvinists that you appeared to know of who support and teach antinomianism. I hope this is a distinction you are willing to make.
Does the Bible teach abstinence from alcohol? Of course it does and Southern Baptists have recognized this for many decades. 1. Proverbs 23 gives a detailed description of fermented wine, the kind that makes you drunk. And the smartest man in the world, King Solomon, said not to even look on that kind of wine. 2. Proverbs 20:1 says “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.” Notice it says the wine itself is a mocker, not the overuse of wine. Unfermented wine is not a mocker, but fermented… Read more »
David, I have a report from the April 2009 (which is more recent than February 2009) issue of the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health which says that “Men who regularly drank up to a half a glass of wine each day boosted their life expectancy by five years” and that “Light, long-term alcohol consumption of all types of beverages, whether wine, spirits or beer, increased life by 2.5 years among men compared with abstention.” Therefore, if you really love the temple you will drink in moderation. (Or, we could avoid (ab)using verses which talk about (1) the church, or… Read more »
Bill, G F, Todd and all….I hate to bow out of this conversation, but I’m on my way to Texas to pick-up my precious granddaughters and will be unavailable for deep conversations till Wednesday. I look forward to rejoining the stream following their visit. Just didn’t want you to think I was knocked out. 🙂
David B. …nice to see you join us. Like your thought on “sober”.
selahV
.-= selahV´s last blog ..ARE YOU VULNERABLE? Part…5, FAMILY FOCUSING =-.
1. Proverbs 3:9-10 says, “Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.” The smartest man in the world, King Solomon, said God will bless with abundance of wine those who put him first with their finances. NOTE: Of course, some will claim the insight to differentiate between various types of wine and say the type mentioned here is non-alcoholic pre-incarnate Welch’s. 2. Psalm 104:14-15 says, “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man… Read more »
Deut: 14:26
?And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth?, and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Darby, That’s interesting, since the Greek word translated with the English “sober” in those verses (nepho), at least according to the lexicons, has nothing to do with alcoholic drunkenness. Instead, said word refers to a state of mind, being mentally and spiritually in control, having self-control rather than (as BDAG puts it) “being mentally or spiritually drunk;” not letting one’s passions rage or become excessive. Reading alcoholic drunkenness into such verses is a case of eisegesis. Please notice that many of those who disagree with your position are themselves abstainers, personally. Further, I am not what David refers to as… Read more »
Stephen,
I think you mean to be addressing David and not Darby on this one.
.-= Todd Burus´s last blog ..Cynicism and The Sinner’s Prayer- Paul’s Testimony =-.
The Reese’s Cups comments and some others are not worthy of a reply. But feel free to continue to mock the biblical convictions of many believers in Christ. Vats or winepresses bursting forth with wine – ever notice they do not produce alcoholic wine, but fresh expressed unfermented wine? You have to let it decay to make it alcoholic. A common practice back then was to boil the fresh wine down to about a third of its volume; into a thick liquid or syrup. It would last without fermenting or spoiling in this state. This thick wine would be mixed… Read more »
David, “The Reese’s Cups comments and some others are not worthy of a reply. But feel free to continue to mock the biblical convictions of many believers in Christ.” I think that is the problem here. I can’t believe that there is anyone on the moderation side that is mocking anyone on the abstinence side’s “convictions.” What, if anything, is being mocked is the elevation of convictions to absolute biblical truth. I would be surprised if there is a single person here who would say you have to drink wine. Please don’t confuse conviction with truth. .-= Todd Burus´s last… Read more »
Stephen, You said of the word “sober,” “refers to a state of mind, being mentally and spiritually in control, having self-control” I may be missing something, but that seems to perfectly make my point. The first thing alcohol does is affect your mind, your judgment. That first drink clouds your God given mind, judgment, conscience. Alcohol causes you to do things you would never do in your right mind. That first drink ends your sobriety. That first drink adversely affects your “state of mind, being mentally and spiritually in control, having self-control.” I’m not saying “sober” (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8; 1… Read more »
Todd,
Your last comment seems to contradict what you said last night, “Therefore, if you really love the temple you will drink in moderation.”
I guess you were making a joking comment.
David R. Brumbelow
.-= David R. Brumbelow´s last blog ..O. S. Hawkins on Alcohol Today =-.
David, It wasn’t a joke unless you think your original comment was as well. I was only using the same logic you were (i.e. that science shows alcohol use is good/bad for the body) in order to justify my belief that drinking in moderation is okay. My actual complaint here is that you are misusing 1 Corinthians 6.19 (as do most evangelicals) to say what you want it to. The only action being spoken of in context in 1 Corinthians 6 is sexual immorality, yet for some reason we use this to justify not drinking, smoking, getting tattoos, and all… Read more »
Todd, During His discussion of immorality, God says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and you are not to harm it. So you are saying that this principle cannot be used to apply to any other substance, practice or situation that is harmful to the body? We can trash and abuse our bodies in other ways and this biblical principle in no way applies? If the Bible does not exactly, specifically, word for word deal with the issue then toss it out? I don’t buy that argument. That view seems more a matter of finding loopholes in… Read more »
David, I don’t really care about the alcohol issue anymore, but in looking at 1 Corinthians 6 I think you should reconsider. It says, “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.” This passage is most assuredly referencing sexual immorality and thus must be the first transgression we consider in reading it. Now, as to your question of if I am ” saying that this principle cannot be used to apply to any other substance, practice or situation that is harmful to the body?,”… Read more »
David, You are still reading your own personal preferences into the word. Take a look at the lexical entry for the word I mentioned – it talks about emotions, attitudes, desires – things that can get out of control apart from alcohol. If the point was to be in control of one’s drinking, why didn’t the writer just say so? Why write a whole ‘nother verse to say so later? Look at the entire context of your quoted passages – it’s about being serious minded and watchful, not partying til Jesus comes to get us. And there is a major,… Read more »
I have to challenge the idea that people only drink for the drug effect. You cannot prove that because it simply isn’t true. Some people have a drink because they like the taste. The “drug effect” of one drink for someone having a meal at home is practically negligible (it varies with people). Should we ban turkey because it makes people sleepy, or cola because it makes people jumpy? Do we want sleepy or jumpy people driving cars? Should we ban tobacco because the nicotine is highly addictive? Our bodies are a seething mass of chemical reactions, that respond, in… Read more »
Bill, They like the taste? Dont you think that most drinks could be made without alcohol? and taste just as good? Besides, liking the taste of alcohol is an acquired taste….that stuff tastes nasty, because it’s fermented. Do you like the taste of rotten oranges? Also, I went to a wedding Saturday night. Afterwards, they had the reception away from the Church. The bar was open…boy, was it open. And, I saw Church members sucking down booze like a baby going for it’s bottle. I watched these Church members, who would probably use the moderation arguement for thier drinking, and… Read more »
Is it any wonder we don’t get anywhere when we substitute narrative for normative and preference for truth? Talk about postmodernism!
.-= Todd Burus´s last blog ..Sunday Devotion- A Prayer over Joshua 10.42 =-.
Stephen, You continue to prove my point. Alcohol affects you physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally. It affects your attitudes and desires. Alcohol causes you to lose control. Yes, those things can get out of control apart from alcohol; I guarantee they easily get out of control with alcohol. A man having a beer and a steak – that beer will adversely affect his being “serious minded and watchful.” The first drink affects your judgment, reaction time, etc. Have you noticed that all America is for prohibition when it comes to on-duty airline pilots? As I previously said, “sober” does not just… Read more »
Bill,
What David 007 said.
If people stopped drinking alcohol for the drug effect, the brewers would have to get an honest job.
David R. Brumbelow
.-= David R. Brumbelow´s last blog ..O. S. Hawkins on Alcohol Today =-.
Did you know that soy sauce is fermented? Did you know that buttermilk and yogurt are fermented? Sour cream, sauerkraut, all vinegars are fermented. Many types of pickles are fermented. Some people like the taste of fermented foods and drinks. Fermentation is not an evil or unholy process, neither are its results.
David B: Are brewers not honest? What is meant by an honest living?
Personally, I am not bothered by drinking. I got drunk once in life and heaved up my socks. That was soo many yrs. ago. Drinking has never held an attraction for me. It does not make me feel good, and I have no need to do it. On the other hand, I know my history, Greek, and some Hebrew. Southern Baptists in all of the churches first founded in America used wine in the communion. Grape juice was unheard of. They also exercised church discipline. Brutal use of biblical quotes is never wise. Head bashing is not advisable, and there… Read more »
I just find it humorous that in order to be an “official” church planter with the SBC at the national level… 1. You can’t have had anything to drink within the past year, and you have to be able to assure the assessers that you will stand strongly against alcohol. 2. If you have ever spoken in tongues you won’t receive funds. Obviously, everything can be abused. Shoot, sex is abused, but we don’t ban that. Maybe we should? I just think that if Jesus (wine) and Paul (tongues) couldn’t be a church planter in your denomination then you’ve got… Read more »
Mike, Paul never spoke in a private prayer language. People can speak in tongues in the SBC, but a PPL is certainly not that. If a person goes to a foreign country and preaches the gospel in a particular language that they have never learned, praise God! The IMB will certainly alow them to continue to be missionaries. But, if they are in their room speaking gibberish, then it is certainly wise, as a non-charismatic denomination, to not allow them to be SBC missionaries. I happily encourage all private prayer language people that want to be missionaries to go over… Read more »
Matt: Was speaking in tongues never done (or instructed to be done) privately?
Nope… I refer you to Dr. Hershael York-
http://hershaelyork.blogspot.com/2007/06/its-not-language-its-not-prayer-and-now.html
I can’t quite agree. 1 Cor. 14 makes clear that tongues is man speaking to God (that’s prayer) and that we have the choice of doing it publicly or not, depending upon the presence of an interpreter. It is, as the text says, used as a sign to unbelievers, if public. But it also says it is for personal edification. I don’t think it is a slam dunk either way, and therefore not an issue to disqualify much needed missionaries. I could be wrong, but I very much doubt that a missionary candidate with a history of public tongues speaking… Read more »
selahV
I’m sorry that our first encounter has somehow snapped the entirely wrong picture of myself, my views, and my heart for Christ.
You cannot give a clear picture to someone whose mind is clouded with alcohol
Darby Livingston
These are just a few of the reasons Baptists should wisely oppose the manufacture, sale, and consumption of Reese’s Cups.
Now we have this poor fellow offering an argument for the benefit of christians having a cold beer. I am amazed.
.-= Jerry´s last blog ..There is a way that SEEMETH right to men. =-.
Matt: If they are in their room then it would be private wouldn’t it. We have no business being in anyone’s prayer closet, and how they choose to pray is not our business. Period.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..The Gospel =-.
Debbie,
Its not a prayer closet if it doesnt fit the biblical form of prayer. A private prayer language is nothing, but gibberish. I “spoke” in a ppl for over a year and it is nothing,, but emotionalism. Although I do not question the genuineness it is not of the Spirit of God, but rather a manipulation of the spirit.
Matt: This is where you and I would disagree. I believe it does. I believe the outer gifts are still for today. God can give them to whoever He wants. It is not for you or I to say. And it is a prayer closet which is private.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..Why I Am For The Hate Crime Bill =-.
Debbie, I am also a continuationist (kind of) that believes the gifts are still being used today. God, IMHO, has not “ceased” using the miraculous gifts just because everyone from the apostolic age is dead. God can and does give them to whoever he wants. My point is that according to the Bible, a private prayer language isn’t a gift to give because it isn’t found in the Bible… except the fact that the Corinthians were misusing tongues, speaking in tongues without interpretation(which is exactly what a PPL does), and Paul corrected them saying that it wasn’t proper and of… Read more »
One of the problems our modern eaters and drinkers have that before the twentieth century people did not have is what is called subliminal seduction along with foods designed to destroy the body. Subliminal seduction techniques such as an empy whiskey glass with some ice cubes in it was one of the best selling ads one whiskey company ever had. What was in the ice cubes had to be seen under a microscope practically, the floating wild figures that man sees in his dts.(delirium tremens). Many of the ads that sell fast foods have subliminal sexual things in them, which… Read more »
This topic was dealing with legalism. I have been in two churches where both pastors were really shallow in their faith. Each Sunday I left church feeling that no matter how hard I tried, I never measured up. No matter how sincere I was in the word, sharing my faith, giving, attending and so on, it was never enough. It was like there was an invisible bar that was raised. You never knew where the mark was, just that you never made it. The pastor could never tell you how to grow in the faith, just that you never measured… Read more »
The Two best reasons for doing any thing in Christan living are; 1) A desire to glorify the Lord Jesus christ. 2) Gratitude. That idea of gratitude was what God used to reach our son and call him to the ministry of the word. Just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill (If there is any such thing as a run-of-the-mill sermon)Sunday morning sermon on Gratitude, text, I Th.5:18, in Aug., 1994 reached his heart and the rest, as they say, is history. As to legalism, it can be as destructive as antinomianism. Arminians can be just as ungodly as antinomians. I know of… Read more »