It’s time to tackle one of my favorite issues, let’s talk Sunday School. In many places it’s dying on the vine, it’s being traded in and swapped out. It’s considered out of date and it’s not working. I’m here to tell you that Sunday School can be powerful, effective, life changing, church reviving and Christ honoring and will become your favorite time of the week. One of the problems is we are stuck on this idea of Sunday School being something it’s not. Today I want to talk about the “D” word. Let’s dive into the deep of deep.
So you want a deep Sunday School huh. The whole open group thing doesn’t appeal to you because you are worried about having to “water it down”. You don’t want to teach the boring stuff, you want to have deep teaching. Let’s stop for a minute, I don’t have any idea what “deep” even means. What are you teaching that’s so deep? Hebrew poetry structures? Are you examining the Hebrew Lexicon and searching for possible meanings for Selah? Examining every Old Testament prophecy and cross referencing historical and current events? Are you doing a historical look at I and II Maccabees? (One more). Are you trying to do a new translation from the oldest available Hebrew text? What is a deep class? I know what I have seen, most of the time when a teacher, leader or guru wants to go deep, he or she has a pet project or a personal agenda they want to teach. Put the rocks down, I didn’t say you do, just saying that is what I’ve seen. Don’t get so touchy, it’s like I hit a nerve. PUT THE ROCKS DOWN.
Ok, now that we are past the desire for bloodshed (I hope) let’s talk about what you should be teaching. You need to be looking at Old Testament books and examining how God is revealing Himself and what we learn about God, His character and His attributes from His revelations. You need to look at the law to see what is teaches us about ourselves, how unable to actually be holy we really are. You need to teach the wisdom of the Old Testament and the skills for living that are explained. You need to show people Christ in the Old Testament and how He is in every story and proclaimed through the entire redemptive history. Teach the principles of what God is showing us in the Old Testament, but do so without teaching legalism, and remind those in your class who aren’t Jewish that we aren’t Jewish, so don’t try to keep the law like a Jew. There isn’t a temple, it doesn’t work. (You think I’m joking, but I’m a serious as a teetotaler at a brewery with RC Sproul.)
You need to teach them Jesus. You need to teach the Doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement. . . but don’t call it that. Just tell em Jesus died in your place so you can be justified before the Father. Yes, use words like Justified, Sanctified and Glorified, just define them. Also define Born Again, Gentile, Epistle, Propitiation and anything else that brings a confused look to someone’s face. Remember, we are growing through Sunday School, so there should be new people in your class. Teach them the hard stuff, but make it so they can learn it.
Talk about stuff that matters to them. Talk about death and eternity, about marriage and divorce and sex and kids and drinking if you can survive the conversation. Talk about abortion, elections, Election, the 2nd coming and talk about then using scripture. Talk about stuff in the Bible, and a great way is to talk about it while it comes up while teaching the Bible. Use material to help you. I know, I know, you all hate curriculum, you can write better stuff than the guys who write this stuff for a living. Can I be harsh? Get over yourself and go buy The Gospel Project, or something else. Lifeway has great stuff, and their Thru the Bible is perfect for many of you. Just get it. Ok, go to the website and try a sample. Do it.
Ok, last thing. Teach your people to be transformed. Let me break it down this way, teach them like you assume your teaching will change their lives. Teach them how to study the Bible, teach them that life lessons that will save their lives are in the scripture. Teach them the whole thing is important, not just the part about dragons spewing rivers or wives submitting. Teach them about context, exegesis, isogesis and why it’s bad and why you never, ever do it. You don’t do it, right? Ok, good. Teach them about translations, the different translation philosophies and why they shouldn’t use the new NIV of the TNIV, and of course to avoid the New World Translation. Teach them about worship, prayer, fasting, studying and reading and quite times and such. Talk about outreach and evangelism (cause we are growing, remember) and make your class a safe, happy and fun place to bring people. This will require you to have some fun and be a little social. Bring coffee and maybe donuts. One class I worked with had chocolate covered bacon, and their class grew. Just saying, couldn’t hurt. Find good resources, bring good resources, share good resources. Teach your people to be Biblically literate, have a Biblical world view and to become teachers themselves when the class is too big and you need to have two classes. Teach them so they can become leaders, deacons, pastors and of course bloggers.
Now, do all this, allowing for time for fellowship, prayer, and be open to new folks and teach in such a way that new people are learning, engaged and feel open? Overwhelmed? It’s a big task, but Sunday School is amazing when you are open, caring, loving and you engage people with the power of the Word. Is it deep? I don’t know, I think sometimes we go deep enough to bury our class while it’s still living. Stop being deep, just be real and teach what matters. Teach with passion and love and excitement and then invite people to come and teach them stuff that will change their lives. If I can do it, you can do it (and I’ve done it with Middle School boys, so I know you can). Good luck, you’ll have a great and amazing time. Thanks for not stoning me.
All I can say, is DUDE!!!
So, what do we do with all of these rocks now? Somebody need a fireplace built?
I would offer that it’s more than just this:
“Use material to help you. I know, I know, you all hate curriculum, you can write better stuff than the guys who write this stuff for a living.”
It takes me more than three hours to prepare a decent lesson from a pre-written one. And that’s arguably just ‘decent’. Any less and it’s arguably ‘indecent’. And now how do you support class members who actually desire to study in advance? Even with a prepared curriculum shared by the entire Young Adult department at Great Hills by the minster for that group (shout out to Keith Pate at New Hope First Baptist in Cedar Park!!), we didn’t have an organized way for these adults to come prepared. We did get better at it in time, but it’s a shortcoming that deserves attention and that was with a full-time staff member dedicated to that age group.
They might study better if there is better material than a “quarterly”? Sure: offer supplemental material and test that theory. Let your “A” students (or is that TYPE A students?) first excel at studying, and then start incorporating them into the leadership of the department so they THEN can excel at relationship.
And let’s be super clear: want to go deep? Teach them how to love each other as Christ loves the church. “They won’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.” (Sorry Dave…)
Sorry Dan…just love to talk about Sunday School!
Dan,
Good stuff. It is tough to do everything you said but it is a smorgasbord of ideas to pick and choose for starting up. Two (2) things I would definitely like to see is the pastor working with a select few and sending them out to begin groups and so on. Secondly, have a night set aside to simply pray with the men. The greatest teacher is simply the hit and miss experience as we mature in Christ.
Occasionally, our Sunday School would merge two classes and set a topic. The teachers would team teach and it had a great affect on both classes. It kept you on your toes, too. Could you imagine the Young Couples class merge with Adult V and the subject be on Marriage for 4 weeks? That would be biblical and have a great effect.
Good post. Lots of heart. No rocks here. I like dodge balls. Not as messy.
Being semiretired now, I have occasion to attend SS as a member not a teacher (as pastor I always had a class and taught deep stuff, or at least stuff that I thought interesting) and find it somewhat tedious. The fellowship is rich, the class is a caring class but it’s a talking head lecture. I’m not sure if there is a lot of learning going on althought the teacher is conscientious and generally well prepared.
I think you are on target with your assessment of what passes for deep – hobby horse stuff mixed with an supposedly, and intentionally, impressive display of someone else’s knowledge of Greek or Hebrew hijacked as if it were the teacher’s own.
Of course, we fixed a lot of SS problems by not reporting and emphasizing the declining numbers any longer.
i-so-GE-sis, n., teaching the bible as if your one hobby horse had equal presence in every verse. From Greek “iso” same + “ege” to lead.
Good post!
same as ‘eisegesis’ ?
Not quite the same, just poking fun at the typo. iso=same, eis=into.
We just pick a book in the Bible and start at the beginning and go from there, verse by verse. Its easy and deep at the same time. Tons of supplementary materials.
I’m using the Gospel Project material and like it. Mainly because you can’t just take the material and teach it. You have to prepare your own lesson to teach, and frankly I need to do that.
I enjoy just reading and teaching a book from scripture, but I think SS should be structured to take folks from somewhere to somewhere. TGP seems to be doing that.
But I’m very aware that we’re not teaching material; we’re teaching the Bible.
For the past 3 to 4 years I have been teaching a Sunday School class of a group of median adults at the church where I and my wife are members. For a little more than a year we have been going through The Gospel Project. Average attendance is 15 to 20. We sit in a circle and the format is very participative. While a missionary in Spain, I have led various small groups, from more traditional Sunday School to home cell groups to small group discipleship groups. As I see it, there is a time and a place for all the above. The important thing is that in the schedule of activities of a church all the key areas of church life are adequately covered: worship, teaching, evangelism, service, and fellowship.
I believe it is crucial that at some time in the week every church member be a part of at least one group that is small enough for personal interaction, not just sitting in rows listening to someone lecture. While we are able to do this fairly well in our current Sunday School class format, there are also advantages to meeting in homes and not having to limit yourself to the one-hour time slot generally given for Sunday School. The problem with many contexts in the US is it is often easier to get people to come for an hour of on-campus Bible study when they are already going for worship service anyway than it is to get them to someone’s home for 1 1/2 to 2 hours during the week. But, personally, all things equal, if I had to choose between the two, I like the home group format better.
David, your point is well taken and I thoroughly enjoy home groups, but for many of us who pastor churches in urban areas this is impractical. Namely, because we have children (and teens) who come without their parents, who we pick up in our church van, or who simply walk over to the church. These children/teens need Sunday School (or call it whatever you want) in order to teach them and present to them the gospel.
Now, some may say, why don’t you simply have “children’s church” during worship, but then our people wouldn’t be able to come to worship. There are simply not that many folks who actually are willing to teach/lead these children’s classes. Plus, we bring these children into worship, have them sit with our families and let them enjoy “corporate worship” of our Lord.
I believe Sunday School was started, in large part, to address the situation I face in my church. We see its fruit. All the baptisms we have had in the last couple of years have come from these children/teens who have professed Christ. Sunday School was an integral part of sowing the gospel into their souls.
Nate,
Yes, I agree you must adjust your strategy to your context. As I said above: “The important thing is that in the schedule of activities of a church all the key areas of church life are adequately covered: worship, teaching, evangelism, service, and fellowship.”
David, wasn’t disagreeing with you, just adding to your insights. Probably didn’t come across that way.
Sometimes, in spite of Dave Miller’s protests to the contrary, an emoticon does help out. I wasn’t thinking you were disagreeing. And I was agreeing with you. In other words, we are all agreeing. 🙂
I disagree with you agreeing with him agreeing with you about your agreement with him.
And emoticons are still evil.
I have people in my classes who desire to build a Sukkah this Fall, not from legalism, but from excitement in the true point of the Torah…to learn more about their Messiah and because the book of Revelation is full of allusions to the Feasts that even a learned Christian would not notice. This is one key to unlocking this Hebraic book.
Pet themes are not always bad…I think most people have a bent they are drawn to…engineers are drawn to the scientific patterns and measurements in scripture, accountants to numbers…linguists to the Hebrew and Greek. We all have a piece of the puzzle of scripture to share. Scripture is a rich tapestry. We should not lord it over others but share and the as Bereans check it to be sure it is true…but don’t dismiss it till you have tried to disprove it and found it wrong. We can all learn from one another.
As a University trained linguist I want to know and teach in an exciting way when Jesus said alpha and omega defines him…what that means exactly. I am not satisfied by the pat answers and I don’t believe congregations are either…but they don’t know where to look.
We have to go back to the Hebrew in Genesis 1:1…and the alephbet Moses used was not the one you learned in seminary. That was changed on Daniel’s watch and I believe by Daniel obeying God to seal up the book till the time of the end…the untranslated 4th word of this first verse of creation is aleph tav spelled AT in the most ancient form…looked just like our English only on its sides. The A was an ox head…strong leader, first. The T was two sticks/trees crossed, a cross, if you will…also X as in signature on a covenant…also last letter so the end. So here we find the strong leader of covenant…on a cross…the one who begins and finishes what he starts…arriving in the 4th millennium since creation. Then we see the sixth word spelled lAT vav is a hook, nail, fastener and the conjunction ‘and’. It generally just hooks onto the nouns as if a prefix…but here is connected to the AT. The pictures spell that the heavens are fastening or impregnating the strong leader of covenant into the earth…or some variation on that just on the verge of the 7th or Millennial Reign of Christ.
Think what you will of this…but God put his entire plan in that one verse. When we ask God what His word means and who He says He is…if you mean it He will take you on an extraordinary adventure…that is what I tell my students…not what to believe…just where to begin the adventure.
Pardon me, Dee, but your gnosticism is showing…
Dee I say this with all the love in my heart. Don’t teach that in Sunday School. Start a small group or a bible study. You might as well speak Hebrew. Anyone new will be totally lost. Do that stuff in a closed group.
Thank you for your concern. First, I met with the pastor twice who gave me 3 Wed services. I did have new people because they were excited and invited friends. I just reviewed a lot and passed out materials and people wanted to learn and stayed late asking questions.
Yep x 32
That’s not for Sunday School. That’s stuff to talk about occupying the time on a long trip home from an ACC Nation if you are an SEC Nation and your NATION lost and your starting QB got his passing arm broke ’cause it don’t matter anyhow ’cause you feel like you gonna die and you just don’t care.
I haven’t had any trouble teaching this and having people who are interested enough to bring their friends. I don’t recall much happening in church other than serving ice cream that brought visitors.
Dee,
Just wondering what resources you use in preparing your teachings. Do you depend totally on your own study or do you consult the works of other scholars and experts in the field? If you do consult other people, who are they? What are their credentials? Where have they studied? What are their current works?
Thank you for asking, though I know not to expect anyone to respect people who, while some have credentials, do not lean on traditional seminary credentials because seminaries do not teach this. Even in my Linguistics classes I went against the grain proclaiming that Paleo-Hebrew had to be the original language of the earth and not Proto-Indoeuropean…a completely made up language, by the way, that they teach at University!
I had studied to transcribe an unwritten tribal language, create a grammar, teach them to read and write and at the same time translate the scripture for them and teach them the Bible, so when I began to learn Hebrew square letters, I found the Paleo Alephbet and modern cursive at the same time so learned them all three at once. I am not your normal, do things the easy way kind of person. I dissect languages for fun.
I use your normal BDB, Strongs, Thayer’s, Septuagint concordance, Englishman’s, Clark’s and Klein’s Etymologies on the Hebrew, etc.
But after self study, I did find others who had very interesting works.
http://www.edenics.org/global-edenics-team/
This site lists the Global Edenics team of researchers from all faiths who work with Isaac Mozeson author of ‘The Origin of the Speeches’ and the lexicon ‘The Words’ and ‘The E-Word Digital Dictionary’.
These works confirmed my earlier suspicions of the original language of Eden. He has an interesting take on what happened at the Tower of Babel. All languages are much more related than it appears to the layman. And he proves that the University linguists are ignoring the obvious in favor of an evolutionary theory bias they are holding to.
In addition, Jeffrey A. Benner’s many works have been foundational, including ‘Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible’. Bradford Scott’s lectures on ‘Agribio Linguistics’ of Hebrew are fun and educational. We spent a week with him teaching and playing music with my husband at Sukkot a few years back and he had previously shared many resources with me. We seriously underestimate how hungry our congregations are for real meat of the Word! ALL AGES LOVE HIS TEACHING and he brings DNA and string theory and other aspects of science into the mix showing where it relates to the Bible and Paleo Hebrew. He shows the relationship of Hebrew to the language of our DNA.
Dr. Frank T. Seekins is also fun to listen to on You Tube. He makes Paleo Hebrew easy for the layman. I often use his book ‘Hebrew Word Pictures’ when I teach the average person Hebrew in the Bible.
Those are only a few…there are many others I read and listen to. Rico Cortes is an expert on ancient eastern covenants and levitical laws so he brings life to what is happening in scripture. Eddie Chumney on the Feasts…but I do not limit myself there. I also study a wide variety of material because I do not want to be out of balance. I want to keep a tension so I am centered on Truth and not out of touch with the average Christian. I am comfortable teaching someone who knows nothing about Bible as well as sharing with someone who holds a ThD…I meet with him Monday morning at 10am to discuss the possibility of me teaching a class soon. He has expressed interest in understanding more. Not desiring superiority, I just don’t want someone’s position or title to hold them back from learning more about God. If the information has merit it will live on, if it does not, it will die. Just research it and find out if it does or not. It may not be for you. That is okay. I just love languages so am intrigued with the Hebrew and my Savior and as long as He has people asking me I will share.
Greg, you are either using a word you do not know the definition of or you are advocating throwing out all archeology and book learning. I have said nothing of this knowledge saving anyone. I am advocating salvation grace through faith not of works or knowledge. However, I believe ignorance is not bliss and no excuse for error. And when I teach I teach that doing is not for salvation but a way to learn hands on. Knowing who I am in Christ is the foundation.
But when Jesus told us he was the Aleph and the Tav He said so for a reason that you are choosing to ignore…as a previous SBC Voices article pointed out…Jesus is using this as a scripture reference—pointing us to the myriad of Old Testament passages containing this word…by telling us this fact He is saying to us ‘look at these passages because they speak of Me’.
Knowledge of the Hebrew language is rudimentary to understanding context. It so happens that the Old Testament prior to Daniel was written in a pictographic language seminaries do not teach. That is not my fault and it is not my fault that God chose to make me love studying languages. Thousands of years have passed since it was changed to the Aramaic form and the KJV 1611 is nearly unreadable to the average person in 400 years. Clearly God had to do something to anchor His Word to the reality He desired us to know.
Calling names does nothing to dispute error. If you want to say I am wrong I am open to evidence. But I would prefer you just study to show yourself approved as the scripture says. This is just something to show you God thought of everything. Isn’t that what you believe anyway?
The gnostic part, though not totally accurate, is apt to the point that you often claim to have some sort of knowledge that makes your ideas clearer and better than those who do not have this knowledge.
I actually questioned my Hebrew professor Harry Hunt regarding whether there might be a pictographic element to a couple of glyphs in the Hebrew alephbet circa the fall of ’85 or the spring of ’86. I proposed that the specific glyph came with them from Egypt. He was able to demonstrate it was present in the ugaritic cuneiform.
My brother Jason–a specialist in avionics software like myself but an arguably more detail-oriented person than I am (with degrees in electrical engineering from Tennesee Tech and computer science with a 4.0 from Arizona State–introduced me to the pictographic interpretation. I’m not out and out rejecting it. Hasidic Jews also emphasize a rather thorough going numerology that they believe demonstrates a similar attention to detail. I also find that fascinating.
But seeking to derive meaning behind the sometimes not always clear text is something we might ought to wait for God to directly reveal to us in the afterlife. I think we have our hands full just interpreting and applying the Bible we have without using the movie Beautiful Mind as a new hermeneutic principle.
And it isn’t name calling if it conforms with a biblical pattern of heresy. Plus the allusion is to an old Reader’s Digest feature called “Pardon Your Slip is Showing” which is a rather light-hearted recommendation that you reconsider the “strength” of the “academic” material you’re presenting. Claiming special knowledge that Southern Baltist seminaries don’t teach pretty much proves my point, by the way…
You are assuming that SBC seminaries are known to teach only truth. I seem to recall they are fallible places which often were known to teach the bible was not inspired…
It seems to me they could have used some deeper understanding of the Hebrew in order to see how multilayered scripture is and therefore impossible not to be inspire.
You seem to assume that I’m not smart enough to learn around the subject matter I’m taught and that your position is actually an inspired by God view of how the Bible in constructed. I reject both assertions in their entirety. 😉
I don’t see how me having a different viewpoint than you makes one more or less smart than the other. I am saying that Hebrew as a language works this way. I am saying John repeatedly writes things that can only be understood in this way. Such as when he refers in John 1to the Word being God…I believe it confirms that he is saying the Word is the aleph tav and that the aleph tav is the Word and Jesus and God. Truth is spelled aleph mem tav which is the first middle and last letters so the scripture is truth and written with all the alephbet. You are free to disagree. But this works with every single Hebrew word.
When Jesus says something 3 times I want to know what He wants me to know and how far He wants me to take it. I see John 1 as the 4th witness to this.
And where else do you see that Jesus had to die on the cross in the OT? Allusions to His suffering yes, but nailed to a cross? The Hebrew word for sign is spelled aleph vav tav…strong leader nail cross…or strong leader fastens two sticks /covenant…like in Ezekiel and the grafting in of believers to Israel.
I still believe you know Christ and are a good Bible teacher if you disagree with me. I’m not disputing that. I’m just offering this for consideration as you study. You may freely discard it if it means nothing to you.
Contrary to what you think, I work quite well with other believers of a variety of beliefs different from my own who have chosen to work together and glean from one another regardless of denomination but agreeing on the core gospel.
And by the way, I do not subscribe to anything that does not seem to be supported in the scriptures themselves as witnesses. Where number meanings are implied in scripture and confirmed in the New Testament teaching, I would make like analogies and take it no further.
Jesus clearly is referring to this. Quarrel with Him.
Dave, I don’t claim it superior …I claim it is urgent in these days when Christians do not know the difference between Allah and YHWH.
Scripture testifies to itself and I am an avid excited disciple who asked you difficult questions years ago. I sent emails to several trusted pastors to answer my questions. One answered. I studied the Greek of the scriptures given and then asked again to explain where I was wrong. No one could. I honestly begged for an explanation of where I was wrong. I want truth not error. I do think I found my answers because that confirmed it for me.
It is not uncommon for Greek students to vastly over-argue points from the Greek. Most things are determined by usage and context, not by secrets discovered in the text.
I had not discovered secrets in the text it was in the plain Greek. I determine usage of Greek terms by their use in the Septuagint and other places in the New Testament. I understand rules of translation. I always take the literal meaning in the most trusted manuscripts (of course a debatable issue) as the foundation. However, the Torah was the foundation for all word and phrase definitions because that is how these men were thinking. So the answers that I was given by a man I know was sincerely giving me his best answers really made no sense. The one that stands out to me is John in Revelation ‘I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day’. I was told that is supposed to be Sunday, but don’t see any scripture to back that up. However if you take the possessive and rephrase it Day of the Lord…all of a sudden I see something that is found in the Old Testament and realize John was being shown what is happening on this prophetic ‘day’. Again you are free to disagree and I don’t think I am spiritually superior. But I think mine makes more contextual sense without doing contortions to make it mean Sunday. I am in a dialogue with someone who keeps a Rabbinically Kosher kitchen explaining how I believe Jesus did not expect that level of effort, just common sense understanding and obedience…so I am used to spiritual debate being friendly not name calling and accusations. I believe people only resort to that when they do not have an answer.
Ultimately, I only really wanted to convey my personal examples that there are fun ways to teach and that your students/congregants who have trouble getting into personal Bible study and preparation for classes can and should find their niche. There are ways to make Bible study very personal to you and not dry and studious. I ask God questions that concern me and He guides me to the answers. It is a journey and I encourage others to ask Him questions and be ready for Him to answer.
I was in Toastmasters because my husband wanted to learn to speak in public well and so I took it as a serious witness opportunity and hone my own love of public speaking. However, I did not want to be branded the one who always talked about God. So I found incredibly fun ways to share my faith without them suspecting. Some of my speeches were about ‘The man who took the punishment of the adulterous woman’ about Jesus taking all the curses of the Levitical test for us. They had no clue till the end when I told them it was Jesus.
Another was how the Chinese New Year is a remnant from Passover. Another was Zola Levitt’s teaching on the Feasts and Human Gestation. There is something amazingly fun or amazing to add to every Biblical subject you just have to look, ask and know your audience.
This is always an interesting subject. With its immature history, the previous 230 years or so have yielded some good and bad outcomes with respect to “Sunday School”.
I have come to see “Sunday School” as an attempt to return to the earliest of fellowship gatherings within the church just after Pentecost. Since preaching in America today is typically now defined as a man standing in front of a group of folks for an hour. Some hours more entertaining that others…. The invention of the “Sunday School” seems to have some appeal, although cyclical. It appears to me that the quality of such is driven by the quality of the Spiritual leadership connected with the practice.
If the church and leadership is able to increase the number of Pastors and Teachers within the local body, then Sunday School can be effective, but then it simply begins to look like the early church without the tag of “Sunday School”.
Just some observations,
Blessings,
Chris
It’s interesting how our different experiences determine our perspectives. What Dan seems to be referring to as “deep” I would probably call “foolish.” Whereas what Dan is actually advocating for I would call “deep.”
In case it’s not clear, I totally agree with Dan and am very thankful for this discussion. But it’s just reminding me how we have all seen good/deep teaching watered down or perverted into something that no longer drives us to know and follow Christ. So when I say “deep”… I’m talking about helping people see the depth of their depravity and how deep are the riches of God, I’m wanting people to see how deep the Father’s love is and how deep the cup was that Jesus drank down at the cross. Anything less than this (and I think Dan will agree) is just shallow.
And a huge AMEN to the Gospel Project – I’m looking forward to diving into it with the guys at church soon!
I am ALWAYS suspicious of people who claim to know more about Greek and Hebrew than people who gave their entire lives and fortunes to study the subjects.
So some person on the internet is going to tell us some new secrets that people like Keil and Delitzch missed?
Brilliant comment, Louis.
Why not? Remember some people get special direct revelation from god himself and that openess to the spirit obviously supercedes scripture.
Dee is not alone is suggesting she is one of them. Others on Voices have said they do too…..you questioning that? ;-). (I sure am)
We’re just haters though, obviously.
Tarheel,
If one doesn’t believe in God answering prayer, Naturally, they wouldn’t believe that God gives his ministers sermons.
I was shocked to find out that some of you don’t pray for a sermon, and we wonder why there is a decline in Baptisms in the SBC.
Oh brother.
Nothing supercedes Scripture…not seeing where you think you saw that in anything i said.
Let us throw out all archeological discoveries since the 1880`s to honor them.
Which ones are you talking about, Dee? Which archaeological discoveries have been made that lend support to your position? I’m asking for specifics here. Cite your sources and detail how they support your theory.
Dale, I answered. If you want to know my sources, you will apparently have to check with the moderator or contact me personally.
I hope this answers your question…
I think the earliest archeological find of this Paleo Hebrew/Phoenician writing system was in 1855. Much more has been found in the 20th c.
I think it is widely agreed it was used for writing the Torah and all Hebrew writing till the time of Ezra who adopted the current script upon return from the Babylonian captivity (Daniel was instructed to seal up the book until the time of the end around this period). It continued to be used by the Samaritans till 135 CE. (Rabbis claim the current system was at creation then lost to the Paleo, then found again…not sure I buy that claim).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet
For starters, this Wiki article gives a nice succinct background for those who do not know what this is about.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/6_early.html
This page and others listed on this site show photographs of early, middle and late Semitic writing much of which has been found only in the 20th c.
The first example on this page is the word m’al spelled mem aleph lamed…or water ox staff…which is translated as ‘from God’. To me this means that the word ‘from’ is the water, as in flowing from and God is the strong one who guides with a staff.
Skip to the third photo. The first two letters are clear…an ox and a tent…aleph bet. This spells father, the strong one of the house.
Fourth, we have again ox staff…aleph lamed. Strong guide. God.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/6_03.html
Middle Semitic
1st photo– teeth water eye…shin mem ayin…spells sh’ma meaning hear with obedience. So the eye is understanding, teeth has to do with pressing in to do or chewing on the understanding, the water is the flow or follow through of obedience. Shin mem hay… teeth water window (shamah) is the unused root of heaven so I believe there is a relationship there between the two words. The hey means behold or what comes as a result…of pressing into the flow or follow through= heaven. Hebrew is full of intentional puns imbedded in the language. I think we are meant to feel the connection between these words.
3rd photo, fragment #1, line #9 — Let us focus on just the words House of David…House –spelled tent arm cross or bet yud tav. To me this says that to be in a family we work together in agreement or covenant with the floor plan of the tent. The bet was originally shaped like the floor plan of a tent. The arm means work. The two crossed sticks mean the sign of the covenant or agreement.
David –spelled door nail door or dalet vav dalet. Dalet is the entry of the house. The vav is the nail, hook or fastener. It is also the conjunction ‘and’. So the name David is connecting two doors. The star of David is actually two ancient dalets connected to one another…which proves this statement. The House of David was both houses still as one. After Solomon the two houses split. I believe the House of David is meant to rejoin in the end of days. Doors have cross beams…The covenant is two sticks/bones joined as one…or the cross and putting on flesh. Consider all the allusions to this in scripture. We will all know one day if this is true or not.
I hope this answered your question. And again, no condemnation if this is not your cup of tea or just plain disagree.
There are more facets to this unrelated to archeology, but to linguistics that could only be researched fully with the help of numerous people of many languages helping…
such as Isaac Mozeson’s Edenics studies which I mentioned earlier. But he might disagree about which alphabet came first because he is dedicated to Rabbinic thought and may not question them on that point. His major claim is that all languages of the earth are related to Hebrew and he makes a great linguistic case for it. He points out words in common that the big name linguists ignore. He states ” The establishment Eurocentrists still support “origin unknown” for LAD (boy), even though Hebrew yeled and Arabic walid mean “boy,” and the root of birthing is Lamed-Daled.” More can be found here…
http://www.edenics.org/wp-content/uploads/oos_jpost.pdf
Just consider this something to chew on if it interests you.
I failed to mention that Brad Scott was on the History Channel for his expertise on The War Scroll found in Qumran cave 1. So if you watched that you saw him.
I think part of the problem is that we fail to recognize that people are on different levels. It’s like the big complaint that some have toward many schools these days where material is being presented on the lowest level so that no child gets left behind. The complaint is that many kids are being under-taught. When my family moved from Ohio to NC in my 5th grade year, the scope and sequence of my new school was way behind where my old one was. I was bored and stayed there until I graduated.
The typical synagog school in the days of Christ were a little different. All the children would come for general instruction. Those who showed promise stayed around for more refined instruction. One or two out of those were tapped for rabbinical training.
So, one aspect of the Sunday School issue is that different people are going to require different levels of interaction with the material. This means that the typical Sunday School structures aren’t adequate. Either you need to turn your more advanced students into teachers or provide different levels of Sunday School education for people. The problem is that tends to set people off: “Are you trying to say that I’m not smart enough for so-and-so’s class!?!”
That brings up another consideration. What is the didactic goal of Sunday School? To what extent are we merely passing information, and to what extent are we trying to grow people spiritually? While somewhat related, those are two different goals. Both are necessary, and not one to the exclusion of the other. And everyone will be at different levels of growth in each category.
There’s more that could be said on this, but my comment is already long. My point ultimately is that these things need to be taken into consideration to build an effective Sunday School program or to provide an alternative to accomplish the same things.
Well said. I was bored in 9th grade SS because I attended Christian school and was hungry for the Word, not satisfied with a teacher who only skimmed/ read the lesson last night and not truly excited about the Word.
“I think part of the problem is that we fail to recognize that people are on different levels.”
And, I think, not just on the “student” level. I’ve mentioned before that while I’ve got a BA in Bible, and look like a ‘Teacher’ on those Spiritual Gifts tests, I am actually pretty lousy at planning and giving lessons. Sit me down with a group of people in a Biblical discussion, though, and let me listen, and I can usually pretty well figure out where the misunderstandings and ‘knowledge holes’ are, and gently try to clarify or fill them (I refer to this as Clarifier (rather than Teacher) ministry). I don’t think it likely that I am the only person with this type of gift (I’ve run into at least one person on Voices who appeared to have something similar). But it can sometimes be hard for someone with this type of gift to know where he/she fits. We can make an excellent adjunct to a ‘normal’ teacher, provided the teacher doesn’t feel that we’re upstaging him/her. I’m just not sure if most people know what to make of a “Teacher” who doesn’t fit the “normal” teacher mode.
More generally, I’m trying to point out that you may have people whose gifts don’t fit the usual expectations. You can either sideline them because they don’t fit what you think you need, or prayerfully find out how to put them in places where they’ll be effective. The latter may be part of providing “different levels of interaction”.
Ben, great point! I couldn’t agree more.