Originally posted at “Dave Miller Daily.”
There are a lot of words you could use to describe Donald Trump.
Narcissist – his focus and concern isn’t America, it’s all about Donald Trump. He judges people, press, and everyone by “how they treat me.” “It’s all about ME,” according to Trump.- Misogynist – his treatment of women is despicable. No more need be said.
- Racist – it is not too much of a stretch to use this word to describe his border policy and his treatment of Muslims.
- Bully – he is mean-spirited, vindictive, and nasty.
- Bizarre – he says and does some of the most unbelievable things, and still manages to stay ahead in the polls. Most candidates who said a tithe of the wild, crazy things this man has said would have faded into obscurity long ago, but his poll numbers hold strong, and may even be increasing.
How is he doing it? Is it that he is scratching where Americans itch? Has he sold his soul to the devil? I predicted back in the early fall that by now he’d be an afterthought. I was sure that his act would have grown stale and Americans would have turned away in droves. But no, his poll numbers remain steady in the low to mid 30s nationally.
What is driving the Trump bump? Simply put, it is the same hero-worship, messianic, blind loyalty that drove the Barack Obama campaign in 2008. What put Obama in the White House? Was it his firm grasp of policy? His experience? No, America went ga-ga over him. He was going to align the planets and bring balance to the force. He was not a candidate, he was a phenomenon, a movement.
I saw several “man on the street” interview segments back in 2008, in which people were asked to describe their fervor for Obama. Seldom could they give any specific policy or belief of his. They were enamored with the man. “He’s going to solve our problems and make the world a better place.”
Ask a Trump supporter to tell you why they like him.
- He’s not going to let us get pushed around.
- He will stand up to other nations and not apologize for America.
- He knows the art of the deal and can run the country like a business.
- He is not politically correct and says what he thinks.
- He is a strong leader and will get things done.
It’s all nebulous, tough-guy, “art-of-the-neal” stuff. What you will not hear is a single specific, reasonable policy initiative. Trump doesn’t have them. Have you watched the debates? Trump blusters and bashes, but when the debate becomes about policy specifics, he goes quiet. Why? He has no idea. His campaign isn’t about tax policy, or fiscal policy, or social policy, or even immigration policy. He’s not put forward any real policy plans. When asked, he simply says,
“I’ll get the best people on it and we will solve it. I will make America great again.”
Look at his most famous specific idea. “I’ll build a wall and make the Mexicans pay for it.” Does anyone anywhere think he can do that? Build a wall? Perhaps. I want the next president to secure the southern border. But make the Mexicans pay for it? How is he going to do that? You can’t bully foreign governments. He’s running for president not king of the world. What is he selling there? Donald Trump.
Barack Obama sold himself. “I’m going to bring hope and change.” He created a mystic sense of awe – people thought he was going to change the world. For crying out loud, they gave him the Nobel Peace Prize for pretty much doing nothing! America went bonkers over him, fell in love. Then, when reality hit, many realized he wasn’t up to the task.
Donald Trump is Barack Obama. No, they have different policies, as far as that goes. But no one is voting for Donald Trump’s policies. They are ga-ga over his perceived strength, his self-confidence, his politically-incorrect bluster. Republicans are fawning over Trump as Democrats first, and then America in general fawned over Obama.
It didn’t work out for us that well these last few years, America. Trump would likely be a worse President than Obama has been – and we didn’t think it possible. Please wake up, Republicans. Don’t fall prey to the kind of hype that the other side of the aisle did in 2008. America has real problems and we need real solutions, not empty promises and self-important bluster from someone with messianic delusions.
Please, Iowa, let’s start a national trend toward sanity next week. When we go to the caucuses, vote for character, for competence, for integrity. But for the love of all that is holy, good, and for the love of this land that I love, DO NOT vote for Donald Trump!
Pretty please?
Hear, hear!
Cruz / Plan to Simply Taxes on Joint Filers
0% – 0-$50,000
10% – 50,001+
Trump / Plan to Simply Taxes on Joint Filers
0% – 0-$50,000
10% – $50,001 – $100,000
20% – $100,001 – $300,000
25% – $300,001+
Rubio / Plan to Simply Taxes on Joint Filers
15% – 0-$150,000
25% – 150,001-$300,000
35% – 300,001+
Obama certainly reveals is socialistic agenda with almost 40% for earners over $200,000 with a dramatic boost in capital gains.
Cruz is most dramatic…not realistic to implement, even though I like the turn to less taxes. Trump is middle ground and a bit more conservative than Rubio.
Trump/Rubio have published essentially the same policy using the same mechanisms for deployment.
Trump is not conservative. He just says whatever lie he thinks will get him elected.
Again, Trump is Obama.
I don’t disagree with that statement Dave,….yet he does have real policy, real guys working for him in that regard.
If Trump does gain real momentum when the voting starts, he will be forced to agree with Rubio, and that is how Rubio will ultimately overtake him. Both, are so very close in how they would govern (theatrics aside), that the GOP will certainly be more in tune with Rubio’s “governmental appearance”.
Trump might be good to have around to help in negotiation, simply because he is smart and savvy, not because he has any type of bedside manner for the nice folks (although folks that work for him and know him well, have good things to say about him). Will he cooperate?….who knows!!
I’ve worked for companies that his friend Carl has bought and run…they are ran very tightly, conservatively, etc. So, from a business perspective he really has over the years developed enough experience and systems to be successful in many ventures.
Trump’s run up to these primaries is all, and I do mean all theatrics! Once the voting begins,…he will pivot, then everyone can see if they really like an electable Trump or not. He knows he is in a battle that is very, very tight and can escape him very, very quickly.
I would have to disagree with you a bit on the conservative statement though. Trump is definitely a fiscal and economic conservative,…and, he is whatever he needs to be on the social conservative side of the party (lies and all).
A fiscal and economic conservative? Really? Given that he has for decades and to this day supports free healthcare for all (paid for by the govt.) I am not sure how one could possible be labeled in that way.
For business yes… for Healthcare; no at this point in time, he doesn’t have a clue, a real mish/mash of ideas. He would probably settle on one of the Republican ideas that were presented over the years that Obama swears doesn’t exist. One of those five would be better than the disaster we have in front of us today!
Healthcare insurance is business and socialized medicine is economics.
Health care should be free to all our citizens. Especially for all of us who do not believe in divine healing by the church. Free health care is a great thing. Jesus didn’t charge for it, why should we?
Jess, there was all this time thinking you flew the flag of the Democrat party – but actually I found the flag that you really fly.
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Troll?file=TrollFlag.jpg
You are right there Tarheel, and the reason that Trump is a mish/mash on the issue. He really has not formulated a plan as I have seen. Obama’s is certainly not a realistic plan with tons of evidence of how horrible it is for America and those that need healthcare. The interesting thing about a Trump presidency (again, I don’t see how that happens in the current state of affairs) but, just say it happened. He would not write any laws. The Republicans would have an opportunity to actually build a common sense healthcare structure that would preserve Healthcare and preserve the economics (structure and systems) of why it is the best healthcare in the world.
Still better than the alternative of Hillary or Sanders, or more probably Biden with their objective of continuing to devalue Healthcare and increase taxes at the same time.
Jesus didn’t charge for it, why should we?
Because drugs don’t get developed and produced by magic. Because pharmacies don’t dispense medicine by shaking a mystical fairy. Because med schools don’t give free tuition to students and doctors would like a salary so they can feed themselves and their families. Because hospitals aren’t built by wishing on a star.
If Jesus healed sick people by forcibly sucking some of the vitality out of healthy people and gave it to the sick, your analogy would be more accurate.
Free health care is a myth. Healthcare is not free anywhere in the world.
Spot on Bill Mac!
“Free health care is a myth. Healthcare is not free anywhere in the world.”
That’s the part of the Healthcare Bill that Nancy Pelosi did not want us to read.
Bill, did I ever tell you you’re a commenting hero of mine! This is classic. If miller ever starts a voices commenting hall of fame this is sure to be a nominee.
“If Jesus healed sick people by forcibly sucking some of the vitality out of healthy people and gave it to the sick, your analogy would be more accurate.”
Dave,
I’m glad that’s your opinion, and not the facts.
I’ll let Sheldon Cooper answer that one.
Will you pray for him if he becomes president? There is the crazy chance he could win.
Dave, Your boy Rubio is Obama…
Illegal Immigration (aka Non-Secure Borders) is the most pressing issue in this election. The only reason it is even being discussed is because Trump has brought it up and won’t let it go. Cruz has taken up that perspective as well, but only because Trump keeps it in the forefront.
Rubio will grant Amnesty and keep the borders open (should he win) and if this country doesn’t protect its borders (which is one of the primary mandates of the Constitution) the U.S. is doomed, at least from a conservative future.
Rubio is Obama…
Tarheel,
I always like to keep this chart in front of me when weighing candidates. In 1913, the first federal income tax was constructed and equated to about 21.2% for high wage earners in today’s wage system. That is reasonable. So, I use that as a rule of thumb, when imposed in 1913,…as it was used as a sort of tariffing balance for budgeting within Congress.
So as we compare our political systems and leaders today, it gets pretty simple.
Top Income Tax structures:
Democratic Socialism(European models) – 60 – 90%
Sander – somewhere above 60%
Clinton – somewhere above 40%
Obama – tempered by Congress just below 40%
Rubio – 35%
Trump – 25%
First American Income Tax – 21.2%
Cruz – 10%
In 1913, that was a shock to the Nation. The Democratic Socialists of our day just snicker at the wisdom of lower taxes and the advantages of pushing responsibility of true governing back to the people.
Trump is to the Presidency as is Hip Hop Rap is to American Pop music.
His resonance with the church crowd is revealing that New York values also belong to Evangelicalism.
We are seeing the fruits of our labors. All too many of the people our churches / pulpits were supposed to be teaching and influencing as disciples are big Rap and Donald fans.
This includes a wide swath of ages and backgrounds. I see the pulpits as culprits. We have turned our congregations into audiences and glorified personalities to star status. As our churches dwindle in number we have become as the insecure teen aged girl who keeps raising her skirt for attention and acceptance as we compromise our faith and transform our pulpits into playgrounds. All in the name of reaching people with their language.We say, Please like me–please come (and don’t forget your offering)We will do and believe whatever you want.”
We simply have more people who resonate with Donald, Pop and Rap than the biblical mind and real music. Compare the salary of a one time Rap concert with a one time major symphony concert with a staff and 40 musicians. Not even close. Rap rules. Just ask any one of your youth (outside of church of course)
Then we have the depth of our Theological think tank, Mr. Yippee Ki Yae, Dr. Toombstone P. Fallwell, strapping on the 6 shooter with the class of 2016, right in step with the good Mr. Trump and his yet-to-be-seen version of a great America. Two perfect deal makers.
And all the people said…
Just a word to the wise Glenn, not all rap is created equal and there are some of us who enjoy both classical and hip-hop. Grace and peace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwxW6IryMsc
Rapper Bob… I like it!
Gotcha Bob,
You must show me your bling sometime.
“Not to us , but Your name be the glory.” Sung on stage with lights, swagger, false bravado, perfect outfits, bling, and all T-Pain copycat style, I’m sure. (I had my picture taken with T-Pain–impressed?)
Combining this stuff with Christian intention is like having a weight-loss convention at the Sarah Lee factory as the cakes come off the line hot and juicy. “Hello everyone, please hold it together as we talk about self-control.”
My point is not to glorify or disparage any one style of music, but to reveal just how much our humanistic popular culture has leeched into our soul and churches. Enough that we will toss aside our doctrinal integrity for a ride in the cash mobile. (or helicopter)
Not that Trump has to be a Christian to be our president. But that he charades as one to make a deal with the lot of those who claim to follow Christ. Better that he not mention Jesus at all than to use Him and us for his campaign of deals. Do not think that this will stop if and when he becomes president. Don’t know why, but I feel about the same way with Cruz.
I might vote for Trump if he were not so busy sucking up to the Jesus clan to help him get in office.
So what if he said,
“Hi everyone. I am the greatest businessman, deal-maker in the world. I don’t do the Christian thing but I promise to abide by and support the Constitution as it applies to all people of faith and as it applies period.
I won’t pretend and be phony for your vote, but I will work hard for it.” –Donald Trump
Watching the Evangelicals become a giddy, loyal, vicarious harem is just too much though.
Soon we may all be able to speak Rap.
“Donald be chillin with his cake on fire. He ova the top pappuh fat!!”
You reveal your ignorance in your stereotyping of how those who both perform and listen to hip hop talk and act. I’m not sure what your point is other than to disparage a form of music you don’t like or appreciate.
Just for your reference, here is a link to a study done of hip hop performers based on the variety of words used. Many of them rank above Shakespeare.
http://poly-graph.co/vocabulary.html
Enjoy your education. And next time you decide to bad mouth hip hop try to do so as intelligently as these guys.
Your conclusions on that study are bogus. I like Christian hip hop as much as about anyone. But if you carefully read the article, it isn’t all that impressive. No one here including you believe that Eminem is more articulate than Shakespeare. The researcher said that he counted “pimps, pimp, pimpin,and pimping” as four different words. Really impressed with their articulation.
The only education that article will give anyone is in nonsense, vulgarity, and silliness masquerading as legitimate research.
The writer himself drops the f bomb in the article about “deep vocabulary” and he counts such words as “stankonia” and “nahwatamsayin” as words in this supposedly rich vocabulary. Please tell me you weren’t serious when you posted it.
Last year during the half time of the Super Bowl I was introduced to some people who I believe call themselves the Wu Tang Clan. Their lyrics were mesmerizing, because I couldn’t understand a thing they were saying. We backed the show up and watched with the closed caption on and I took a picture of their lyrics. (I wish Dave would let me post that pic) Here are the “intelligent” (Ryan’s word) words of Wu Tang,
“Plan Rocka, show stopa, flo froppa, head knocka, stella tail droppa.”
I will leave you smart guys to giving educations and determining who may be more eloquent, Wu Tang or Shakespeare.
I checked my notes and that was a young lady named Missy E who dropped that knowledge last year. My apologies to the Clan.
Thanks Dean,
I have seen a lot of ridiculous comments posted in this forum, many of them posted by myself, but this has got to be one of the silliest propositions I have ever read. Even though I disagree often with him, Ryan is normally super informed and reasonable, but this post of his has gotten me scrathing my head.
John/Dean,
Once again you can feel free to dismiss the research all you want and you can choose to be offended by the non-Christian author’s language all you want. It still does not allow for the dismissal of hip hop music as unintelligent, or for the mocking of a musical form you don’t like or appreciate or in the case of the comment I was responding to leading to the downturn of society and the rise of Trump.
Shakespeare himself was and still sometimes is considered vulgar. He and other poets and writers invented words to convey new thoughts and ideas or to put into common vernacular what had been regarded as slang. Hip hop music does the same thing.
Just the fact that Dean confuses the Wu Tang Clan (an entire group made up of men) with Missy Elliot, a female solo performer, reveals a lack of knowledge of the genre that renders intelligent commentary impossible.
Finally, the study was not asking if the lyrics were polite, reverent, or socially acceptable. Not was it attempting (nor was I) to say that all the artists mentioned were or are superior to Shakespeare. It was a study in vocabulary diversity. Which is what the commenter was mocking in his attempt to speak “Rap” in his reply above. His comment was stereotypical and to me, bordering on offensive, since it is a caricature of a genre that is both the language of a largely unheard and ignored people, and a blanket dismissal based on his personal bias against the genre rather than an actual analysis of what is.
Hope that clears up your confusion. I would be happy to talk hip hop music and culture with anyone here in this forum or privately in my email. It’s something I hold dear and find both fascinating and edifying.
Ryan,
That you like Rap and are “edified” by it, I suppose is a good thing.
I really did not mean to get off topic with the thread and I am sorry to have insulted something you love so dearly. So while I am off thread…
I assume you work in a ministry with people who live in this culture of Rap. I am hopeful that your defensive posture is about your love for them and your ambition for them to know Christ right where they live.
This love for them has you to look deeply into their world of influence with compassion. It has even opened doors for them to express themselves and their faith using the medium of Rap. You yourself may have been raised in this culture. With your knowledge and familiarity it appears this may be so.
But it also feels as though you are perhaps more concerned with defending a music/speech format that somehow cannot stand on its own merits. The associated values of deviancy, indecency, vulgarity (shall I continue) have so stained what could be just another way of making music, that to use it in concert with the Gospel or the world and its people (even they are a gasp at times) requires concerted effort and a great sales pitch.
You mention “Christian Hip Hop”. I am not sure what this is. (I reveal more of my ignorance).
Is this like Christian medicine, doctor and lawyer? Christian aerobics, food and clothing?
Each generation of Christians has a division that longs to take its “forbidden/evil” music and entertainment to the altar of sanctification whereby a topical application of Jesus words makes it alright. The boomers perfected the “Christian” Rock thing to a science. Their hoax is still in play today, having been purchased by the media and music industry and sold back to us as soul food.
Neither, medicine, law, music, nor Rap, etc can be Christian. Christians can combine chemical compounds, organize notes-sounds-and science into music, and Christians can stand on a performance stage, expressing their own heartfelt form of expressions. This does not make all of this “Christian”.
Johnny Cash reminded us of this when he was asked if he was a “Christian Artist?” He said, no, that he was a Christian who played his music.
The Christian can eat all types of food, even the way out stuff, but he/she doesn’t need to call it “Christian” food for a benign sense of rightness. Good food is just good food.
Music for Christians is just that. There is no secular or Christian version that waits for our stamp of approval. A Bb chord is not spiritual while an Eb is secular.
Christians must simply allow everything, “whatever you do in word or deed”, to be held against the light and standard of Christ before consumption. This is the litmus test for our purchases of entertainment, not what style or preference we may choose to defend as holy.
Otherwise we must get ready to go the the “Christian Circus” where all the lions pray before getting whipped and the tigers quote scripture and the bears Rap the bible—-O my!
“Just the fact that Dean confuses the Wu Tang Clan (an entire group made up of men) with Missy Elliot, a female solo performer, reveals a lack of knowledge of the genre that renders intelligent commentary impossible.”
Ryan you are correct in that I have no knowledge of the genre. However, your assessment that my lack of knowledge of the genre renders intelligent commentary impossible is incorrect. That opportunity was gone the minute you attempted to compare hip hop artists’ vocabulary with that of Shakespeare.
“Plan Rocka, show stopa, flo froppa, head knocka, stella tail droppa”
verses
“This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honor, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
The capper is you believe Hip Hop is edifying. No, intelligent conversation is impossible, I’m afraid.
I leave you with the edifying words of Rakim,
“Shells lay around on the battleground
Dead bodies are found throughout the town
Tried to put shame in my game to make a name
I’mma put it on a bullet, put it in your brain.” I hope this blessed you Ryan.
Sure because “stankonia” is an example of rich vocabulary. The article was an asinine joke. I cannot believe that you would seriously interject it in any serious discussion.
Now if you would have been defending Christian hip hop artists like Lecrae or Trip Lee, I would have heartily agreed. But, you chose to defend even the secular side of the genre and used a pop culture source as a legitimate research article. Secular hip hop denegtates women by calling them “hos” and routinely advocates violence against police, and glorifies drug use. I’m not saying that other genres don’t do this as well.
I would hope that you don’t find secular hip hop edifying.
LOL Dean thanks for continuing to prove my point. Your Rakim lyrics are from Juice (Know the Ledge) the title song for the film Juice which is a cautionary tale about the results of living a violent lifestyle. Both the film and the song are about as anti-violent as you can get. If you had read the whole song, instead of just cutting and pasting (aka prooftexting) you would have known you you were completely misconstruing the song.
Just quit man. You are making yourself look very foolish.
John, if you think all secular hip hop is about bling and degrading women I can’t help you. And yes I find great edification in both Christian and secular hip hop- though not in all of it in either genre. And artists you names do as well.
LeCrae’s latest mix tape features E-40, who is mentioned in the study you keep disparaging. CC2 featured a guest spot from Paul Wall. The original CC has Kendrick Lamar in one of the videos. Crae has also named Outkast (whose “stankonia” you keep mocking) and Lauryn Hill as key musical influences.
Should I keep going?
Who wouldn’t mock stankonia when it’s used as an example of “rich” and “superior” vocabulary? Come on man, nobody’s buying it.
Ryan, LOL. Thank you man. That omnipotence you carry around must be a burden at times. It must be boring having discussions with people when you know what they think and what they do. I offered no commentary on Rakim but I share now I do not feel his material reaches the lofty standards of edifying. I shared a few lyrics I am familiar with to demonstrate your nonsensical position of Shakespeare’s vocab being inferior to Hip Hop artist and the genre is not edifying.
You make the ridiculous proposition that hip hop is superior to Shakespeare in vocabulary and say I look foolish. In this subject your bafoonery is matched only by your confidence that your position is superior.
Dean,
I think you mean omniscience.
Rakim would have known that.
LOL
I’m done.
Ryan, you are correct omniscience is the word I intended. Typing 25 feet in the air has me a little sketchy.
Thank goodness someone who believes R Kelly and Russell Jones are edifying isn’t omnipotent. That would be trouble. I’m done.
Allow me one comment…”bring back Elvis”
Glenn
I think it’s far simpler than that. People of faith have been voting for Christians for many years now and have seen liberalism advance at an alarming rate because those Christians they have voted for have capitulated instead of taking a stand. They have seen their religious liberty encroached upon because those Christians they have elected have capitulated for the sake of political correctness and not being called a bigot.
So along comes Trump. They can see the holes in his testimony of his faith. But he doesn’t back down and he tells them plainly I will protect your rights.
Their own haven’t done it for them, so why not give the guy, who may or may not be a Christian, but hasn’t backed down from a soul, and who says he’ll do what they said they would but did not, a chance.
They’ve been betting on their own for years and rolled snake eyes
Trump is ahead not because of his position on issues or anything else. People are tired of the Republican agenda of “say anything, but do nothing”. You may be right, Dave, in the fact that he offers hope. Hope of real change…even if it is wrong.
It has amazed me when it comes to politics how Christians leave their Bible at home but they take their wallet to vote.
I’m continually astounded at the sheep being led astray by this arrogant, bloviating megalomaniac. He represents Christianity about as good as Creflo Dollar. His pandering is more obvious than the comb-over.
But another thought about why the Donald is still around — the media is making big $ covering him, and the Dems aren’t saying much about him at this point. Why? Because they WANT him to win the primary election. He will get skewered in the general election. Doesn’t matter who is on the other side.
Dave says Trump is Obama. I will take it one step further — I say Trump is Judas.
I don’t think I have seen as much negativity spoken by evangelicals about a Republican presidential candidate in my lifetime.
And it appears, at least for now, that it is having no effect on people, especially evangelicals.
I scanned National Review’s anti-Trump edition, including the article by Dr. Moore.
It is going to be interesting, if Trump becomes the nominee, to see how people who have been so vocal in opposition are going to behave.
Trump is a phenomenon. I am not sure conventional arguments are having any effect. If he loses, it will not be because the arguments have persuaded anyone. It will be because the polling data overestimated his support.
I have yet to meet one person who has told me they were for Trump until their pastor, Dr. Moore, or whomever, spoke against him.
Actually, I’ve convinced some to turn from Trumpism to the truth.
Louis: It’s no different than preaching on sin. If some or most choose to ignore it, then they suffer the consequences of that decision. Our duty is just to warn them. That’s all we are doing. If most choose to ignore it, well they suffer the consequences.
And I will say I told you so.
Louis, there is an emotional side of people who do not like and strongly with Trump that borders on blind obsession. I wrote some comments on another commentary here that if I were to use the Trump rhetoric and emotional descriptions of Trump to Rubio it would be this Rubio is a proven liar, Rubio is a cheater, Rubio peddles influence, Rubio is disloyal and dishonest, Rubio betrays the people who voted for him, Rubio is lazy and does not do his job, Rubio is open borders, Rubio talks like a born again but is Catholic, Rubio has no depth just a stump speech.
That is what you get here with Trump. Not much issues, just Trump bashing. Now I am from Florida and voted for Rubio , he is not as bad as the snippets above but he has the same flaws that all candidates do. If I disagree with Rubio on same issues I would state those issues and stay away from the general dismissive , hateful statements about Trump. Russell Moore is not doing the SBC any good with his anti Trump obsession.
Ted Cruz said on national television that Obama care caused him to lose his health care coverage. It’s a lie right out of hell. He never lost it at no point in time. I’ve said before that he will say anything to get elected, and he does. The truth is not in him. Trump does lead the pack morally, so what does that say about the rest of the GOP bunch?
Obamacare caused me to lose my healthcare coverage.
Yes, the low deductible, low out of pocket coverage we had, liked, and paid premiums on time for – was taken away because it didn’t meet ObamaCare standards and replaced by a much, much more expensive plan that does not cover near as much AFTER an insane deductible and a tripled out of pocket.
Here’s an interesting picture of Trump’s contingent teased apart by the Wall Street Journal:
http://graphics.wsj.com/elections/2016/how-trump-happened/
I realize that very few people are still following this post, but I just read that Huckabee and Santorum are joining Trump tonight at his event.
So now Trump has the support of the most visible Southern Baptist pastor/governor/presidential candidate in the race, and a conservative Catholic.
Trump has the darlings of the evangelical world from the 2008 and 2012 campaigns attending his event.
Are people who like or liked Huckabee in 2008 and Santorum in 2012 going to now disown them because they won’t disown Trump?
It appears that Trump is gaining the support not just of rank and file evangelicals, but now movement cultural conservatives.
Of course, maybe they are just crashing Trump’s event, but withholding their support? That hardly seems likely, however.
This is the strangest political season.
I always appreciate your comments Louis. What are your personal views on Trump? Could you conscientiously vote for him against Hillary or Sanders?
John:
Thanks. You are a great contributor to this blog.
My personal views on Trump are, like most candidates, a mixed bag.
I have not followed his business very closely over the years, but from what I know, he has developed skyscrapers and other expensive properties. And he has done so successfully.
That is not an easy thing to do. In fact, it’s quite hard, and it involves tremendous risk and lots of moving parts. Building one skyscraper can take you under. He has done it successfully in the most sophisticated real estate markets in the world, many times over. When people say Trump is dumb, they probably don’t understand what they are saying. But I would say his business acumen is very high.
He has not been in politics. That is not a disqualifier for me. However, I will say that politics can be very frustrating to business people because there is a lack of command and control to which they are accustomed.
His persona. It’s NYC. Not my style, but not a disqualifier. Lagardia, Demato, Schumer (pardon the spellings) and others all had/have a similar style.
His courage. In this field of candidates, unparalleled. That is what thrust him into the forefront. He made the comments about illegal Mexican immigrants about 10 months ago and was excoriated, lost the Ms. Universe pageant etc. Most people would have crawled in a hole and died, begging for forgiveness. He did the opposite, taking the strongest stand on immigration of any of the candidates, and that alone has distinguished him and garnered him support.
His statements – often reckless and excessive. That has not become a disqualifier because of the dishonesty and perfidy demonstrated by the other candidates.
His past. Some is troubling. The marriage situations. But his marriages are not any more or less concerning to me than the Clintons situation. He is up front about his. They are not.
Building casinos. I don’t care. I am not anti-gambling. I don’t gamble, but I believe Christians are overworked about that.
Filing business bankruptcies. I have had experience representing debtors and creditors in bankruptcy court, and I see the bankruptcy act as a very helpful piece of legislation. It enables debtors to get a fresh start, and it enables creditors to be treated equally depending on their class etc. I believe many well meaning people are horribly naïve about this.
His policies. Some I like. Others I don’t. Some need adjustment. The signature issue for him in my mind is immigration. Whether he will follow through or not is another story (see below). But Trump has decided that immigration is a major story along with security and the national debt.
I could go on here. We have dear friends from Mexico and other countries who have immigrated here. But no country is required to accept a level of immigration that is solely dependent on how many people can reach our shores. Every country, to protect the peace and safety of its own people, place limits on immigration. That is especially true for countries that have a generous welfare state. We also have what I believe to be an erroneous view of the 14th Amendment. I do not believe that amendment automatically gives citizenship to every person born here. The amendment does not say that, and the people who wrote that amendment and passed it specifically said that is not what was meant. It was meant to include citizenship for slaves and their children.
I also do not believe that the Bible requires the U.S. or Christians in any country to admits immigrants without consideration to the safety and security of their existing population.
I have heard some thoughtful people say that if we lose the immigration issue, it does not matter what happens on any other issue because it can be undone.
I look at what is happening in Europe, particularly to Jews, from the influx of large numbers of unassimilated peoples from other nations who do not value religious freedom or freedom of speech. We are foolish to gamble with that.
I am a free trader, so I am hesitant to back his retributions toward China.
I believe in human freedom. That is a big thing for me. Religious, speech, association, and just as important – economic freedom.
It seems to me that Trump fits in the economic freedom camp, but this is my greatest concern. Business people can sometimes collude with government to shut down economic freedom. I cannot tell where Trump would be on that. But that is true of all of the Republican candidates, except possible Rand Paul due to his Libertarian tendencies.
National Security – Trump seems aggressive here, and I favor a robust security policy.
National debt – This is going to be the toughest issue that any person who is elected President is going to face. It is a complex issue, and monetary policy is very complex – that is, how economies and debt work. Still, we have grossly overreached, and we will pay a price. Immigration plays a large role here, too.
My biggest question for Trump is that because he is a newcomer to politics how sincere his recent conversion on all of these issues and his party affiliation is.
People are betting that his new-found convictions are real. It is possible. It is also possible that he will get wobbly if elected – like Schwartzenegger in CA. Ran as an economic conservative, got spooked by critics and public sector unions, and ended up as a disaster.
The question is whether Trump is a total fraud (i.e. he is lying totally), or rather whether he is overly optimistic and doesn’t know what he’s really do when faced with opposition.
People are betting that the only guy in modern history to hit back, reject political correctness, and double down on his opinions, is going to be strong in the White House. Whether that is a good bet, it’s hard to tell.
But people are taking that bet rather than openly support career politicians whom they no longer trust.
Given what has happened over the last 16 years, you can’t blame them.
That’s why people are not listening to conventional arguments from their leaders.
Oh, you also ask whether I could vote for Trump over Hillary or Sanders.
Since I believe in human freedom strongly, and I do not believe that governments should restrict the freedom of their people, even economically through central planning and other devices, I will vote for the candidate who emerges in favor of human freedom the most. If that ends up being Trump, then I will support Trump over other candidates who use government to restrict human freedom and potential except in the case of life, liberty or the preservation of the U.S. as a place of freedom.
Louis, Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I think that if people would take the time to careful read this, it would clear things right up.
A good thoughtful observation of Trump and what he offers. Most of the Trump critics deal with describing him as clown, liar, immoral etc. and do not go any further. If nothing else he came in and stoped cold the establishment, money choice Bush who has millions already and had a 120 million dollar plus war chest. Trump has spent little money and beat the establishment Republicans, the conservative talking heads who want to keep their influence and a press that predicts his downfall daily.
He has position papers but is always denounced as having no substance. Rubio, for example as given the same speech since 2010 and is an empty suit. The rest of the pack picked up and beat a watered down Trump package except for R. Paul who is principled but wrong on the issues.
Immigration is what put Trump to the top. The Dems and Republicans just do not get how opposed the majority of Americans are to the present situation and the solutions offered by Dems, Rubio, Bush and Cruz. They got caught and stopped trying to push amnesty and open borders. If Trump is lying and totally distorting his positions on policies he can still do no worse than Rubio, Bush or even Cruz.
Free trade is one thing, what we have now is now free trade, it is free access by foreign and multi nationals to the American market place with like return. This is not what David Ricardo spoke of when he spoke of free trade and the invisible hand guiding the market place. The only thing the Republican establishment and Obama have totally agreed on is the terrible trade agreements that they both want for different reasons.
Personally I see the only person in the race that is totally different and can change the game is Trump.
So, Steve S.,
Let’s see if I have this straight.
Trump is a man who, with willful intent has lived an immoral life of lying, sexual misconduct, cheating people, all without any simple remorse, much less no sign of godly repentance.
Yet and however, “If nothing else he came in and stopped cold the establishment, money choice Bush who has millions already and had a 120 million dollar plus war chest.”
Therefore, you, as a Christ follower, consider that a meaning reason that he should lead the most powerful free country on earth?
You consider his integrity and honesty sufficient for you to reconcile with biblical principles due to the “Level” of human interaction in which he “deals”?
I am not voting for a religious leader, I am voting someone to run the government of the United States efficiently . If Huckabee is still in the running when it gets to Florida voting I will vote for him as he is qualified and is a true man of the same faith I follow. However, I would not hesitate to vote for Trump, Cruz or any of the rest over the Democrat. I voted for Romney who was truly a liberal at heart and did not factor in his faith nor will I do that for Rubio or anyone else that is currently in the race. Trump is a secular person and has lived his life as such. Trump secular life and apparent beliefs are more in tune in tune with 70 to 80% of Americans, so should people of faith resign themselves to voting only on faith issues or for the person who can govern and perhaps we can keep some influence and guidance to those in power as is what historically faith based organizations have done.
I think there is a lot more of my opinion of Trump than he stopped the establishment cold, that is just one example of someone who gets things done and changed the way things are done. Again Huckabee will get my vote even if it is symbolic if he is still on Florida ballot. After that the best person who can govern will get my vote, right now I would say that would be Trump. I agree with him on illegal aliens flooding the country, China, VA mess, tax reform and Second Ad.
I do not like the fact that Russell Moore has this a religious test issue with his suggestion I have lost my Christian values because I might vote for Trump. The SBC should not go there and certainly Moore has gone there. Rubio is the pick the ERLC, why ? who knows. This my opinion.
“I am not voting for a religious leader, I am voting someone to run the government of the United States efficiently.”
Steve S.,
I understand that. That is not the issue for which I have questioned you. Frankly, most everyone on this comment thread, I am sure realizes we are not electing a religious leader, but rather someone to govern the U.S. effectively.
The reason I question you is because I have read every comment you have written in these threads as to why Trump is superior, and thus far, your rationale is based in secular philosophy and humanistic rationalization.
I do not know how to answer your question perhaps I do not understand it. I think Trump’s position on a lot of issues are correct, I have listed them here and on other post many times. I believe he is an effective leader who is not your typical politician with the same old tired conservative, liberal, establishment or convention methodology that is not working. Teddy Roosevelt was called a class traitor and hated by the “establishment” and basically his policies were to make America greater and he did. I take Trump at his word, he is a secular person but he is not anti Christian and Christians will have a seat at the table more so than now. Trump might be opposing abortion just for political gain but at least he opposes it. Unfortunately, the majority of Americans want abortion to be legal, it is our job to change the mind set of the voters to gain traction on limiting and perhaps stopping abortion, at least abortion on demand. I wrote a long piece on how if I took the Trump foes approach to Rubio it would be this
I would never vote for Rubio he is a liar, he is dishonest, he alludes to be a born again Christian while maintaining he follows Catholic doctrine, he is disloyal, he is lazy, he is a true political insider, he is in the pocket of his donors, he is an influence peddler and he will not defend his record he distorts it.
No facts present even though there are reasons to support all the above. I do not support Rubio based on his record, his policy and his performance not just hurling words out to knock him.
Over and over people just mock , insult and demean Trump but seldom address his issues and appeal in a real way.
If the people in Iowa want to vote for candidates of real faith that stand up for what their faith calls for there is Baptist Huckabee, Catholic Santorium, 7th Day Adventist Carson who are the true champions of faith based campaigns more than the others.
Trump is secular and so is the majority of Americans. I have no vote on the religious policies of others but I do have a vote on political policies of American elected leaders.
Again I do not think I understand your question as perhaps I am reading too much into it or maybe I am too defensive as I do not know to express myself any clearer in print. I do appreciate the dialogue.
Steve S. states:
“Over and over people just mock , insult and demean Trump but seldom address his issues and appeal in a real way.”
Then Steve S., states:
“I would never vote for Rubio he is a liar, he is dishonest, he alludes to be a born again Christian while maintaining he follows Catholic doctrine, he is disloyal, he is lazy, he is a true political insider, he is in the pocket of his donors, he is an influence peddler and he will not defend his record he distorts it.
No facts present even though there are reasons to support all the above. I do not support Rubio based on his record, his policy and his performance not just hurling words out to knock him.”
Steve S. defines others as liberal, moderate, conservative, etc. However, Steve S. states that he himself cannot be defined as any of the above.
Naturally, this is my opinion, but from reading the comments of Steve S., it seems that he has a double-standard of judgment. He holds himself to one standard and everyone else to another.
Did you read my post? My comments about Rubio were an example of how basic and narrow most of the negative comments about Trump are. I can expand on each issue I addressed but did not .Rubio is close to an empty suit who speaks well and gives a great stump speech in my opinion. He does not keep his promises to voters who elected him, that is for sure, he lied is what he did.
As far as labels I am conservative on some things, progressive on others, neutral on others and bored on many. When I read post and talk to people I like most do pigeon hole them as to where they are coming from.
Steve: We are not so naïve as you are trying to make us. His religion has nothing to do with it, although he is pandering to Christians. He spoke at Liberty, even claimed the Bible as his favorite book. Yet google his other statements. One thing that may help you see the two sides of Donald Trump is the Steven Colbert show’s “Mr. Trump vs. Donald Presidential debate.
Warning: It is hilarious, but the words are all his and well……his. 🙂
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/29/stephen-colbert-makes-donald-trump-debate-himself.html
Donald Trump does not view and practice his faith as many of this board do. In my opinion he lives a secular lifestyle, he has a basic Christian understanding at this time. Yes he is pandering as is born again Catholic Rubio, praying to the cameras Cruz and converted to Catholic belief Bush. Again based on number one, ability and experience coupled with his life grounded in faith my vote will be for Hucakabee, if he is still on ballot. After that I will vote for the best candidate who I agree with on political issues.
Trump does have the same outlook as most Americans as we move to be a secular nation. I do not think anyone is naïve here some just blindly and rabidly anti Trump which s okay, that is our system. Let me be clear, Trump is not running a faith based campaign, he does have Christian heritage, he is not anti Christian, is he pandering yes, they all are except the true faith based guys. Over and over Trump in my view lives and operates in the secular world. I have asked why on different boards why Huckabee, Santorium or Carson are not the leaders in Iowa if indeed the voters mostly vote on faith based rationale. I do not know how better to explain what I think about Trump and he is what he is.
“Rubio is close to an empty suit who speaks well and gives a great stump speech in my opinion.”
Steve S.,
So, do I take it that you believe Trump to be a “full suit” who does more than “give a great stump speech.”??
Yes, based on his proven results, what he has done and the policies that he says need attention I believe he is capable of governing. Rubio is more of same old , same old, just younger with great speaking ability like President Obama. What is bold, different, point us in a new direction about Rubio or any of the rest? They are just minor differences around the edge all following Trump lead on issues.
Steve: Now you are just talking nonsense.
Debbie, tell me why I am talking sense, use issues and facts not just statements , other wise what is the point? What nonsense am I talking, tell me? Thanks
Steve: I don’t believe Donald Trump is a Christian. He once bragged that because of who he is he has no problem getting women into bed when he wants.
The issues don’t even matter to me although his approach to immigration is definitely racist, and that is just one of the many issues I could respond to, but the issues are nothing next to the fact that he is just a horrible, horrible human being. As Dave has said, he is evil. Democracy as we know it would suffer greatly. And most serve 8 years, and I will not have 8 years of Donald Trump and it has nothing to do with the issues you want to discuss, because you are conveniently passing over his evilness and that I don’t get at all, other than you know he is evil and just don’t care.
If you do not care about the issues that says it all. I assume you then just vote religion and morality. That is fine, we all have the right to vote as we see fit. However if that is your position, there is no need for dialogue interaction, you are set in your views. Just who would you vote for? It has to be Huckabee. Thanks for the exchanges.
You know the saying about what assuming does don’t you Steve?
I vote based on character and then the issues. The promises made by candidates on issues very seldom become reality once the person is in office, if you look in history. But character plays a huge factor in who I vote for as a Christian, a woman and a Republican.
All of you folks who keep insisting that Trump isn’t a Christian, do you think Hillary is? Sanders? All of this protest vote nonsense is whole lot of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
It would be tremendously disappointing – I thought better of Huckabee than to participate in anything with a man as despicable as Trump.
But, what this is showing us as much as anything is how politics has infected and corrupted the church. That anyone who claims to love Christ would even CONSIDER voting for a man like Trump shows that American evangelicals are more devoted to political power than to Christ’s kingdom.
Trump is an unbeliever, character-free, truly an evil man.
It shows how unhealthy Christianity is America when Christians would even give a thought to supporting such a man.
This is such a blatant attempt to leech off Trump’s success it is sickening, all under the facade of helping veterans. What a joke.
Just when I think Trump can’t sink lower, he surprises me. These two should be ashamed for attaching themselves to him.
And have used the phrase “This isn’t theology it’s politics” as a reason to align with someone like Trump. I just keep shaking my head more and more.
I think the problem is that you guys keep looking at this in a vacuum. When you consider that the alternative is Hillary or Bernie Sanders, I can certainly understand why someone will vote for him.
If you don’t want Hillary or Bernie in office, then give me a candidate on the Republican side I can vote for. 2 elections straight, no candidate I can violate my Christian beliefs and vote for. Instead of going up hill, it’s going downhill fast.
So keep giving candidates like Trump and I will not vote. The end result is the end result. But I will not violate my conscience.
That is you prerogative, Debbie. My prerogative is to vote for anyone who runs against the Dems.
I know, I know John, because it’s not about theology it’s politics. Right?
Why are you so mean and condescending, Debbie? Give it a rest, please.
If you want to have a serious conversation, I am game, but if you want to keep making little snide comments, please go troll someone else.
John: I am not being mean, these are the statements being made. I cannot for the life of me see how you can vote for Donald Trump. Don’t get it, don’t get it.
He’s the mean one, not me.
And I’m sorry but I can’t use the words serious conversation and Donald Trump in the same conversation. Just doesn’t work.
Debbie,
I don’t get how anyone could vote for a member of the party who literally booed God. And I don’t get how someone could neglect to vote against them.
John: I have said before that if there is a candidate that I can vote for in the Republican party, I will gladly vote. I have never missed an election since the age of 18 until the last election and this one.
The candidates are getting worse and worse, I don’t know how much lower we could go than Donald Trump, but I didn’t think we could go lower than in the last election, yet we did. It’s like morals, decency, and integrity no longer matter as long as the Democrats are not in office.
That is so wrong on so many levels I don’t even know where to begin and I think you guys know this. It just no longer matters. And don’t give me the abortion excuse. That sounds so hollow next to all Donald Trump is and he is for abortion in certain cases, so that argument would fall flat.
I just don’t have the moral dilemma you folks do. I vote against the party who booed God every time.
And again, John, if we will vote for immorality to defeat “the other side” then we are JUST AS immoral as the other side.
If we have no standards, no moral line we will not cross, then we are as immoral and ungodly as the Democrats we criticize.
Dave, Althougho always draw the ire of Debbie when I says, the fact remains that we are dealing with fallen man. I mean I keep seeing folks says, “I will not vote for Trump!”, and now I am seeing, ” I will not vote for Huckabee!”, and “I will not vote for Rubio!”. All of this nonsense is going to saddle us with Hillary, or worse Bernie Sanders. I’ve even seen pastors on here say they will vote for Hillary, and when they do that they lose all moral credibility as far as I am concerned.
How about an article on “I will not vote for a Democrat”?
They weren’t there for Trump, or so they say, and I believe them. The event honored vets in a very honorable way in the end so I see no harm. But I e been saying for several weeks if Trump does win the nomination, Huckabee would be a sound political choice for VP, to nail down the Evangelical vote.
My question for Huck would then be about becoming unequally yoked. Who knows, maybe Huck wins him to Christ. They clearly have a good relationship
So far, Christians have been compromising to gain favor and power with and through Trump. There’s been no Daniels around him, but mostly sycophants.
Will Huckabee be different?
Dave,…that is a pretty good analogy if Trump is the Nebuchadnezzar of our day (I’d say he is a bit more conservative than Neb though). Maybe Huckabee will be a reasonable voice for the man.
Chris Johnson,
Maybe he is the Cyrus the Persian of our day. Ole Cyrus did give the Hebrews a positive shout-out from time-to-time, kinda like a lot of folks feel he is giving the Christians.
Very good point cb! What I find interesting is all the angles that Christians go to to demean or to support the guy. Poor Cyrus 😉
Listen, Trump is simply trying to win…with a whatever it takes methodology. He lost money, board access, and other things as he put those four companies into bankruptcy, and ultimately saved a lot of jobs that would have been sunk with a liquidation. Its easy to check those records. I think most of the disdain comes from his rude, uncompromising ways. Its just folks don’t like initial starting points for compromise. If politicians are smart, you only target Trump with something that has no comprise, and blister him on that point. The problem for most of the politicians though,…is that their policies are only slightly different from his policies. Quite the advantage for a rude, son of a gun….
I love they way that Iowa does their bidding for political appointees…. It will be an interesting Monday night. 🙂
You know who would make a good running mate for Trump?
Larry Flynt.
A successful entrepreneur, and strong advocate for the first amendment. Outspoken and someone who has overcome personal hardship. Has employed thousands of women and married 5 of them. He was even a christian for a year.
You know who would make a good Vice President choice for Rubio? Brian Williams, Brian Williams helped his parents Castro’s Cuba in 1956. He is up to date with events and could report Rubio’s version of the truth.
They both have good hair.
Rubio losing his, but will get fake hair like his conversion to opposing his own Gang of 8 immigration bill, Now that is a man of conviction as the Trump foes would say.
Steve: While I posted that comment in jest, I take your point. I actually wish Rubio has stuck to his original position on immigration. And I do think, relatively speaking, Trump is to Rubio as Flynt is to Williams.
Bill I got your inference, it was good. Here is where I get lost in perhaps my own tunnel vision of thinking. You mentioned immigration, expanding on that , the reason Rubio, Bush, Cruz have changed their position, at least in public, is that the American people do not support any of their previous plans. The majority of Americans want the borders controlled and lawful immigration. The Republican have done nothing and want open borders as do the Democrats, a position most Americans do not want. It seems the Washington politicians care more about illegal aliens and their well being than Americans. H1B visas, killing skilled American workers, no skill illegals killing manual American workers. I live in Florida and it is fair to say Rubio betrayed the conservatives who put him in the Senate also immediately working with the liberal Gang of Eight. He thought it would go though quickly and he would be the better choice of the voters he let down compared to the Democrat . So Trump comes in and is way over the top, he gives people a real choice. Really what is the difference between Rubio, Cruz and Bush other than style and talking points on the immigration issue. Trump gives people a choice that is clear and certainly boldly stated. Illegal immigration is the biggest most dangerous issue facing America as we know it. The Immigration Act of 1965 and the 1986 phony enforced amnesty bill put us where we are now. Remember the main thrust of American lawful immigration policy is family reunification. This one issue in the main point Trump is popular, middle class people know what is going on.
Rubio hasn’t switched his opinion on immigration or open borders. He’s for letting anyone and everyone in. He will say anything to avoid his true position. Oh! Isn’t that what every Trump hater says about him.
If Rubio is a conservative, then we need a new party. Rubio is like the Wizard of Oz, “Pay no attention to the man behind the Curtain.”
Furthermore, why is anybody even talking about Jeb Bush as a possible or plausible nominee?
Dave — Your tone and your words astonish me. I’ve never heard the like of it before, from you.
It appears that you have a personal problem with Donald Trump, or at the least that you have gotten the short end of the stick at some point in time from a successful businessman.
Despicable? Evil? I take one look at his family and have to disagree. Despite three marriages, he has evidently quite successfully parented four children, despite being a workaholic. Oh, it was the women who did such good parenting, you say? Then I suggest he did a good job of picking mothers.
As a Minnesota-born woman (not subject to the niceties of the Southern culture) I see clearly that he doesn’t have any more of a problem with women than he does men. He treats people the same: without compassion if they need to be, in his opinion, put in their place. That being said, this is a guy who gets along well with other people, who knows how to have fun, who is innately kind — unless he is given a reason to not be kind.
As to his suggested TEMPORARY ban on Muslims, Trump is absolutely correct and I’ll take it a step farther: We need to stop ALL immigration until we have a secure system in place. Just because someone is from the U.K., Belgium, France or any other nation other than the Middle East does not mean they are automatically a non-terrorist. We have radicalized terrorists born in the USA, even.
Trump, in my opinion, is a romantic, an idealist. He remembers what life in America was like in the 1950s, and thinks with the skills and abilities he has acquired, that he can lead America back to that idyllic period. I don’t think he’s interested in money sex or power — those three bugaboos that have beset so many — because he’s past all of them; he has all of them already, and now asks himself, what mountains are there left to conquer? Make America Great Again.
He doesn’t talk policy because that’s not where he is. He’s a builder. He thinks like a construction worker. First you put up the frame. No sense wasting time now thinking about what kitchen appliances to put in months from now. Besides, one of the things he has done continuously in his career is find the best person to do the job, the one with the most expertise. I think he has the framework of some of the policies he will be working on, but now his main focus is on winning the nomination and then the election. He’s probably lining up the best people he can find for different areas ie: economy, military might and the like.
David Lane, the American Renewal Journey founder who does “Pastors and Pews” events around the country — it’s David who is leading the charge for 1,000 pastors to run for some political office this year (more than 500 have already said yes!) — David told me he is praying for Donald Trump, specifically that someone will lead Trump to become a devoted follower of Jesus Christ. Imagine what God could do with a Christian Trump!
I have started praying this same prayer, and in my Sunday School class we also are praying for Trump’s salvation.
A rational, thoughtful and honest assessment of Trump. Most of the post about Trump here are just descriptions of what people believe he is and yes he is not a born again Christian , he is not Huckabee for sure. I agree there is no other reason for Trump to be doing this except for the stated reason, he does want to make America great again. You summed it up very well.
Wow Karen, those are some sober thoughts! You seem to identify with Christ…”But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
One thing about American politics (like the politics in Israel of the day) is that is gives clarity to those that preach the gospel and to those that think they preach the gospel. That was the message Christ was making and Matthew penned. Trump will probably not win the day in politics (I still think a Rubio like campaigner has the edge), but he is successful at pulling the scab off of wounds on both sides of the spectrum.
BTW Karen: Are you praying for Trump’s salvation out of genuine caring for a human being or because he will make a better candidate and more acceptable as a Christian?
He has exposed the political and media elites like no other candidate in history. He’s changed the way politics will be done for the foreseeable future. Love or hate him, win or lose, good things have come from his candidacy
Karen: I read your comment and my jaw just drops. I still can’t believe that our country and especially Christians believe what you have written. God help us.
You know the Israelites looked to politics to save them from their troubles instead of God and completely missed who Christ was when He was here on earth.
Same in the OT and we all know how that worked out for them. There are those who are for Trump that have completely lost all on the moral compass level.
Karen,
I think you are 100% correct about Dave. I think it’s because he knows little about people. I think he is basically a good man, but he is caught up in the type of politics that brings the worst out of him. I’ve seen this happen to folks before, and it’s not a pretty sight, nor is it Christian.
If Trump becomes a Christian, wonderful.
That doesn’t mean he should be president. I stand behind every descriptor of him. I believe he is despicable and evil. I will use my voice to call Christians to sanity. Hopefully, we will end the madness and turn away from this man who lacks judgment, character, integrity and decency.
I do not apologize for standing against Donald Trump. If he is elected, I think those who support him will wish they’d listened.
When building a great building, and Trump has done that, you just don’t put up a frame without knowing where each energy dependent appliance will be put, and without a plan and a vision, one to see what you want and the other to get you there.
Trump knows that about buildings, he’s been there done that. But if we transfer that to running the country, to make America great again, that means he needs a vision of what defines great and a plan to get us there.
So far, all I haven’t heard what it looks like or how to get there.
Trump has five policy positions papers on Immigration Reform, Veterans Health Care Reform, Tax Reform, China Trade and his position on the Second Ad. He has been on every show that invades him far more than the others who usually evade unfriendly venues. Over and over on this site and many other there is just Trump name calling and generalizations. I have not heard the “vision” summary from any candidate that wraps up their complete agenda but we know where they generally stand. I believe Trump’s vision of Make America Again is better than the other whose vision of America is what? They will replace Obama or if a Dem they will be Obama. Perhaps I am naïve but I believe Trump is doing this because he cares about America. Yes, he has a big ego, yes he is unconventional etc. and no he is not a born again candidate of faith, he is a secular American like 80% of the American public.
I don’t think you guys know who you are really for. Here is an example: Carly Florina was paid 83,000 dollars by Merck Co. The money came from aborted stem cells. The Republican party is dirty, has been, and always will be. The Dems, aren’t much better.
If Trump is Obama, that is a good thing, he is surely to be elected President.
The Dems are much worse.
This is what passes for political dialogue these days. Al-Jezeera reported the public knowledge that Fiorina served on the board of Merck for less than two years, ending in 2000. She was paid (the figure $80k has been used) for it. Merck is one of the world’s largest pharmaceutical companies with revenues around $42 billion. They produced a vaccine from stem cells. Anti-abortion groups have called for an end to the practice of producing vaccines from aborted fetuses.
The cheap shot factoid that puts Fiorina in a sentence like Jess’ above is meaningless. She was asked about it and the response is
“Fiorina has been openly supportive of vaccines derived from fetal stem cells at least since her California Senate run in 2010. According to the Los Angeles Times, Fiorina clarified that, “It is when embryos are produced for the purposes of destruction, for the purposes of stem cell research that I have a great deal of difficulty.”
If the point is that there are no pure candidates. I’ll agree. After all, Cruz is dirty with secret Wall Street financing, etc. etc.
But contrast Fiorina’s service on a corporate board with Trump’s deliberate, knowing, admitted decisions to (a) commit adultery, shamelessly and repeatedy, (b) build casinos, (c) take some of his companies through bankruptcy and walk away from obligations…and the like.
Fiorina is pretty much out of the running for the nomination these days. Trump is still leading. If you like Trump, vote for him. Say these things don’t matter. Say that his slogan ‘Make America Great Again” trumps facts. We are in a celebrity culture. I get that.
I’ll vote for Hillary before I vote for Trump. She would be a better president.
I really appreciate your comment, William. While I cannot agree with your last sentence, I do appreciate your penchant for getting down to the facts.
William – speaking of cheap shots….that “dirty wall street secret” launched on Cruz is ridiculous too. Nothing there. He did nothing unusual for political candidates (using assets as collateral for loan) and got no special favors, plus he paid it back.
His only error may be in reporting on a single document to the FEC – its important to that that this “scandal” was uncovered using senate reporting data submitted by Cruz on time every year since he has been in the Senate.
Nothing unusual here. He may pay a fine for not reporting it on a particular document (although he reported it on numerous others) to the FEC.
You were dong so well, as John W. said, getting down to the facts and then you played from the same deck Jess plays from – thats not like you.
Cruz has had a hard time explaining it. Just watch some of his attempts. It is not a cheap shot but rather an example of his mild hypocrisy. He’s the angry outsider while connected with Goldman Sachs and Wall Street money?
Cruz was the first example of this type of political dialogue I thought of. It’s a legitimate point but isn’t a deal breaker. I’d vote for Cruz but not as a first choice. Trump is neither my first nor last choice nor anything in between.
He explained it very well and succinctly.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/01/14/ted-cruz-goldman-sachs-loan-sot-bash-ac.cnn
Like I said – nothing there. Cheap shot when first brought up – and not an example of hypocrisy at all.
Took Cruz a few tries to get it right. I’ve already watched him stumble over this. There is something there but it’s not a deal breaker.
Move along…
LOL…that video was made the very day the “story broke”. LOL
He has three of the largest super PAC’s out there. Those things are corrupting politics more than anything else. To say the candidates have no influence or say in them is hypocritical to the nth degree.
I couldn’t bring myself to vote for Clinton or Trump, but I have no doubt Clinton would not be as big a disaster for the country as Trump would be. We survived Obama, and frankly I think Clinton is smarter and tougher than Obama, although I disagree with most of her positions. We might survive a Trump presidency too, but it will be tougher. Who ever thought Republicans would even consider voting for a serial adulterer, pathological liar, vindictive bully and vice peddler.
William Thornton,
You stated you would vote Hillary over Trump. Therein is the great struggle for me. I have never missed voting. I even vote in Water Board elections.
If it came down to either of those people, I would be hard-put in between a rock and a hard place. Just two days ago, Hillary Clinton stated she would consider placing Mr. Obama’s name in play for consideration as a Supreme Court Justice.
If such a horror became a reality, American freedoms would melt away like snow on hot coals.
I am praying for wisdom. For the first time in my life, I do not yet know for whom I shall vote in the primary or if I shall cast a vote in the general election for POTUS.
Great observation, CB.
That’s why I believe a wiser course is talk issues and candidates frankly, but to avoid ultimatum type statements. It is clear to me that most of them have been made in frustration and are only half thought through.
I really like Russell Moore, but his statements in this election cycle about Trump have diminished him. They are overreactions, and have unnecessarily separated him from the constituency to whom he is supposed minister. I am afraid the damage is irreparable. I hope not, but I am concerned. He could have made the same points is a better way that would not have alienated him.
Louis,
Good to “hear from you.” It has been some time since we last conversed in a comment thread.
I also like Dr. Moore. We has several commonalities. Both of the Southland culture. Both have had to wrestle with things of which our culture taught us in our early development. Both have championed the protection of the unborn and both of us have adopted children.
. . . and we both have taken some hard shots from our peers and fellow Southern Baptists. . . . (His in a more public arena, of course).
I do appreciate a lot of the things he has brought to the table. However, I feel, as I understand you do also, he has hurt his cause somewhat by his hard and public opposition to Trump in the fashion of which he has made it manifest to his Southern Baptist constituency and the general public.
I am not a Trump fan. That is obvious if one reads my comments. However, I no longer represent any Baptist entity. I speak entirely on my own. Dr. Moore does not speak on his own. Therein, I think, is the rub.
I think you are right. He could have made the same point in a better way. (I must admit that has been, and still is, a hard lesson of which I have had to learn and am still learning.)
I do think he could have helped himself and his cause, had he been just as vocal about Hillary Clinton, the current POTUS, and other Democrats who have been so vocal in expressing their positions that are in absolute, diametric opposition to biblical values and the Judeo-Christian ethic on which our Republic was founded.
I do hope, as I assume you do, it is not too late for him to redeem himself before Southern Baptists. He is a good man, a brilliant scholar, and an outstanding follower of Christ, and I for one, would hate to see his tenure cut short as a Southern Baptist entity head.
That is not all Merck does….they are a pharma company. By that logic (if one could accurately call the things you say logical) – when you buy your medicine from them, Jess – or any other pharama companies then you too are supporting abortion and aborted stem cells.
Not defending Fiorina – but come on that’s ridiculous, even for you.
Tarheel,
Abortion is not all Planned Parenthood does either!
Jess,
Is that not enough? Is that not too much? Is that not sufficient reason to desire that PP cease to exist? What more do you need?
But, it is MOSTLY what they do. And mostly how they make loot.
By the way spare me the touting – but they do breast exams. That democrat/PP talking point has been debunked more times than Obama lied about healthcare reform. Well, maybe not THAT many.
Tarheel,
That is a lie. You should not be repeating junk like that. You are like the GOP candidates, you try to get folks to believe anything you say because of politics.
I just saw a photo of Huckabee standing behind a Trump for America podium. I didn’t really like Huckabee before this, but now, I wouldn’t vote for him against anyone other than perhaps Trump.
He and Santorum are simply desperate for the media to pay attention to them and the only way that can happen in the cycle, apparently, is to get near Trump. Of course they could have simply publicly disagreed with him on something and gotten attention too – but that would be negative.
I’m not defending them except to say I hardly think either of them are endorsing Trump, at least not yet. They have no chance – and they might “line up” if Trump is the Nominee.
Full disclosure: I have never been a Huck fan…but I voted for Santorum in the 2012 primary.
So, I’ve been reading this stuff: Trump, rap, Shakespeare, etc. I’m wondering if Jesus would go to dinner with Trump? Would he rebuke him as a Pharisee?
Really, what WOULD Jesus do?
this may be a little off topic but NOT much.
http://baptistmessage.com/editorial-does-the-erlc-represent-the-sbc/
You know, it’s probably naive, and I don’t know how it can be done, but I think the only effective way of curbing illegal immigration (at least from Mexico), is to help make Mexico a better place to live. In the end that might be cheaper and more effective than silly ideas about building walls or the ridiculous idea of rounding up and deporting 11 million people.
Mexico has historically the past 16 years a far lower unemployment rate than the USA. Their country is a mess because of their culture of tolerating corruption and their history of non citizen involvement. We do not owe Mexico anything. Should we expect a subsidy from Canada, they are doing better than the USA on the economic scene for now. Enforcing laws of the land is silly I guess, that is why we do not do it. Try going to Mexico illegally, see what happens.
Joe Biden calls the GOP candidates a gift from the Lord to the Democrats.
I believe it, matter of fact, I believe every word of it.
I don’t think I have ever seen a group of front runners in the GOP act as crazy as this bunch does. This nation of ours is finally getting back on track and we do not need a Republican president at this time. Every time we have a Republican president our economy crumbles. You can mark my word, I don’t think it will happen, but if we do get a Republican President we will dive headlong into a deep depression. One that will make the 30’s look like good times. You preachers may be the first ones in the soup lines. I hope you all are ready for your 401K’s to be worthless.
I will stand u and say, I told you so.
The Republicans and Democrats have both paved the road for the financial crisis and the decline of our countrythat is coming, I totally agree. How best to manage the country is the issue, it certainly cannot be Clinton, Sanders, Bush, Rubio etc. Only one person is out of the mainstream politics as usual, can change course and we all know who it is.
“Only one person is out of the mainstream politics as usual, can change course and we all know who it is.”
Steve S.,
I hate to break this to you, but Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, Theodore Roosevelt, and Andrew Jackson are dead. . . . and John Wayne never did run, but that don’t matter. He can’t now even if he would. He’s dead too.
That is cute and clever and I agree with you. However you know who I was referring to as he is the only one that is truly different out of the pack. The others however neatly packaged are more of the same that got us where we are. Of course I am referring to Jim Gilmore.
Steve S.,
I thought Gov. Gilmore was who you had in mind. 😉
And hey, while he served as Governor of VA, the Commonwealth did well. He was a conservative and he was truly tough on crime. In addition, he served this nation in military service and clandestine operations.
Truthfully, were it not for the circus atmosphere in which we find ourselves, he might very well be a person for political conservatives and conservative Christ followers to give prayerful consideration.
However, we find ourselves in our own “self-induced mess” as a nation and as believers.
Therefore, it is hard for some (maybe not all) of us we seek to vote in accord with the principles of a biblical worldview to determine for whom we will vote or if we can, in the end (general election) vote to be POTUS.
I agree, Jim Gilmore is a fine man and a good American of first order. He is ok with abortion up to 8 weeks after that no. That is probably a deal killer for anyone in a Republican primary. We know when life begins.
Steve S.,
Here is what he actually stated about abortion when questioned:
“Q: Your position on abortion, correct me if I’m wrong, suggests that there is a moment, at least early on in a woman’s pregnancy, when abortion would be OK. Is that right?
A: Well, OK is not exactly the way I would put it. But what I would say is this: There has to be some time for the baby to form in the womb, which I think happens at about eight weeks. And after that, I think that abortion should be limited except to save the life of the mother.
Q: Between the beginning and eight weeks, abortion would be OK if necessary?
A: Not OK, but the question is, should the law prohibit it at that point? And I’ve never taken that position. On the other hand, my record has governor of Virginia with the pro-life movement has been very strong. We passed a 24-hour waiting period, parental notification, & informed consent. I signed the partial-birth abortion ban. And I think I have furthered our pro-life movement very substantially, even though not everybody would agree with every nuance of my position.”
He also stated that R v.W was “wrongly decided.”
The law should not prohibit it, he is wobbly and trying to thread the needle. I just think that position would not hold up in a Republican primary now, in a few years it may well be the majority view as people of faith lose influence.
Steve S.,
Do people of “faith have influence” now? I fear we may not have true influence because we have “sold our souls” as beggars in the market square of political expediency.
We have danced to the tunes politician played rather than to be of the fiber of Martin Luther and say “here I stand” or like Patrick Henry and say, “give me liberty or give me death.”
Rather than to have influence as men and women of God, maybe we have made ourselves little “goats” led to the slaughter.
No , people of faith in America have lost their historic influence in social, culture and political affairs. This is a complex issue but in part to the people of faith voting and supporting politicians who give them lip service, slogans and ignore their support once elected. The Republicans for example have gotten support for being the lesser of two evils but have not supported or feel an obligation to faith base social agendas.
However the faith based organizations must stay in the fight. Charles Martel stopped the Turks in 792 , I think, and saved Christianity and Europe from Islamic invasion. If he had not been involved Europe would have been mostly Muslim it is safe to assume.
Patrick Henry was an advocate of vocal and physical opposition to the King of England. He did not shy away from his beliefs and promoted them. Christians should be involved in every aspect of life to affirm the message of the gospel. People of faith and biblical understanding will vote their conscience knowing they are electing a leader in this world but we know who the King of Kings is for eternity , that is the important decision in ones life, who to follow for eternity not for our short time in this world. I have always and always will ask God to bless America not because America deserves it but so America can serve God. People of faith who believed in God founded this country knowing it will only survive as long as the people follow Christian beliefs, that is how we got endowed.
Steve S.,
Therein we differ very little. It is just for the life of me I cannot understand why you are son adamant to defend Mr. Trump.
I agree with Trump on the three main issues that will harm this country at its very core,
1. illegal aliens who have now acquired political influence, neither party wants to touch this subject as well as our legal immigration problems. Democrats care more about illegal rights than voter rights. Republican Cruz, Rubio and Bush are running away from their true open border agenda.
2. Free Trade , TPP, NAFTA, China Currency manipulations and all the assorted trade problems that is eroding our economic base. Fast Track authority giving up congressional power.
3.Ineffieciency of government or as Trump so president like says stupid leaders which is true. I will not dwell on it but FBI, CIA, Secret Service, armed services being used for social programs, all aspects of government are becoming ineffective.
Throw in tax reform and the VA also
Plus the big thing that establishment Republicans and establishment “conservatives” fear is that Trump knows and will not play along with the “system”. He has money and money is freedom. Yes he is a populist but to me in a good way. Why would rich donors give Clinton and Bush millions just for the primary? Trump is the game changer if he is true to what he says. Is he over the top and can he do all he claims, no but that is part of his operating method.
Again , Trump is secular, with basic Christian foundations, he is not hostile to Christianity. However due his nature, his background faith based people Christians may have an influence more so than with the compassionate conservative G. Bush or Baptist Jimmy Carter.
I am long and apologize. I may be naïve and Trump has me fooled as his root of his motive. I think it is simple, I believe Trump is a patriot and want to do what is best for America. To me the others in the pack are basically from the same cloth with minor differences. So thanks for reading this and I have no gift for being concise. I just do not understand the scorn given to Trump and how lightly the failed establishment Republicans, talking heads and leaders who have done nothing mock him.. The Republican Congress recently just had a chance to call Obama out on funding abortions with Planned Parenthood and folded. At least Trump would not pretend he would do something and then not do it, either he would not call the hand or he would bluff, but he would win
Oh , I forgot the stupid Iran deal and the traitor Bergdohl dead. Terrible , as Trump says stupid.
I love hearing David Platt preach and this message on what Christian’s response should be to the Refugee crisis is right on point. This is what I agree with, not Donald Trump.
http://multimedia.sebts.edu/?p=6654
CB:
Moore has brought a lot of good stuff to the table, and he has been a good spokesman in most cases.
He has been unfairly criticized over his statement that it would be acceptable for a Christian to attend a party or reception for two gays who “marry”, but that it would not be appropriate for a Christian to attend the ceremony, as that would be a statement of affirmation of the union. (Note: That seems to be supported in the English world for hundreds of years – “If any here have any reason as to why these two should not be joined, speak now or forever let him hold his peace etc.” I think that is from the Book of Common Prayer. So I personally see attendance at the ceremony as affirming the union. But I, too, could see that a Christian could attend a party etc.
In my view, Moore has been unfairly criticized for this.
But I think that Moore has been fairly criticized in other areas.
He is a good man, and I hope that he can move forward and be productive.
Louis,
Thanks for the response and I am glad we agree on being hopeful that Dr. Moore will be able to go forward and be productive in his post as head of the ERLC.
I would like to point out once again that I’m against abortion and SSM. Here is one of the problems I’m having and it has to do with the trauma of rape. The emotional trauma a woman has to face because of rape, abuse and incest. Deep depression, anxiety, and even physical as well as long term mental disorders develop. Even suicide is possible.
We preachers and politicians try to enact laws and tell women that they cannot have an abortion in these situations. I would rather see an abortion than see a forced pregnancy on a mother who takes her own life and the life of the baby because of the trauma of rape.
We self righteous preachers and politicians need to stay out of a woman’s underwear under these circumstances. This is the very reason why the church is losing this battle on abortion.
I’ve mentioned I’m against abortion. Just because a pregnancy is inconvenient for a woman doesn’t mean she is entitled to an abortion.
I’ve been watching the church destroy itself for a long time now. We are also running our young folks away from the church. This is all happening in the name doctrine, politics, and lack of common sense.
If we are going to judge, at least let us judge rightly.
The people (dems) you vote for – believe abortion should be avail. on demand for any reason at any time in pregnancy and Obama (when in state senate in Illinois) and federal congressional dems even, along with planned parenthood, advocated both sucking brains out of babies before completely delivering them and denying medical care to babies born alive after ” unsuccessful” abortions.
Spare us the “I’m against abortion” mess. You’re lying and everyone knows it. If you really were against it – while you might not vote for Republicans – one who truly opposes abortion could never in good conscience vote a for baby killing Democrat like Obama – and you brag about doing so.
Please.just.stop.
Tarheel,
You have no earthly idea what you are talking about. Republicans made abortion he law. You only tell half and partial truths, you always have. If you were truly against abortion you would never vote for another lying Republican again.
Tarheel, great job at dodging the point.
Tarheel, You say you are against abortion yet you are against health insurance companies paying for birth control for women. You have no idea what and who you are for. None of your stances add up. You are against anything that will help a baby, yet, you want women to have them. I don’t understand you. Not only that, you are against every working man and woman in our church, because republicans are for the rich. I would suggest that you start being a pastor and not a politician.
Jess, I didn’t solicit advice from you – nor would I ever. On any topic whatsoever.
Your grasp on reality is so nonexistent it’s mind ogling and literally gives me a migraine. It’s really not worth discussing anything with you.
I’m done being trolled by you.
*Mind boggling
I for one would never ogle your mind
Dave – you’re about as funny as a train wreck. 😉
There might be some minds worth ogling.
Here’s a soft lie by the Cruz campaign, defended by the candidate.
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/01/30/iowa-official-criticizes-cruz-campaign-over-mailer/
Routine political stuff, unless the candidate has pretensions about leaving this kind of stuff behind and reclaiming morality, etc.
Huckabee had countless fundraising mailers that used similar tactics, which is why I lost respect for him several years ago. Perhaps our political system precludes a genuine, practicing believer from succeeding.
That mailer is pretty despicable. I’ve been rooting for Cruz of late because he’s got the best shot at catching trump, and is less odious than Trump, but he’s closing that gap.
Bill Mac,
Cruz cannot be president, he is “NOT” American born. Are you going to argue with Harvard Law Professors?
Jesse,
Why do you believe harvard law professors? people lie all the time.
Mike,
First let me point out that it’s not just the Harvard law professors. Remember when Mr. Obama was running for president. The majority of the republican party said he couldn’t run for president because he was born in Kenya. I ask you what is the difference between being born in Canada and being born in Kenya. Even the constitutional lawyers said that Obama couldn’t run for president. Mr. Obama produced his Hawaiian Birth Certificate and hushed most of his critics. Mike, what is wrong for one should be wrong for the other. Except in the president’s case he wasn’t wrong.
Mike, the reason I feel free to choose who I want for president is the fact that sinful practices control Dems. and the Republican parties. So it doesn’t matter who to vote for because both sides are wrong. I just happen to choose the democrats at least they own up to being liberal, and are more truthful. I would choose an evil sinner who tells the truth over a lying Christian every time. The truth is the truth no matter whose mouth it comes from.
I’m no constitutional lawyer, matter of fact I’m the farthest thing from one. If Ted Cruz was a true American why did he only change his citizenship only a few years ago.
Mike, I know you will make a case for Cruz, have at it but my mind will not change. Both parties have their problems.
Jess,
I am not going to make a case for Cruz.
All i can say is that he and the republicans who nominate him better get it right before they nominate him.
What I am saying is that people do things out of wrong motivations, whether they are republicans or democrats or are being paid to render decisions [not accusing anyone].
In other words, people lie all the time. Just because a case is similar doesn’t mean that the same rules apply or that they don’t. Since you are not a constitutional law scholar, why do you repeat, as true, what people of unknown character have said? They may be right. They may be wrong. What do you gain by repeating it?
As far as who you vote for, i think you are giving poor reasons [lying truthful sinners over dishonest Christians], but it is your choice and I leave you to our Master, by whom we stand or fall. By the way, many democrats also claim to be Christians,so your reasoning doesn’t really stand up.
As much as I hate to agree with Jess, I have to say he is right about Cruz. In my opinion, Cruz should not be allowed to run for president because he was not born on American soil.
John Wylie,
“Born on American soil” is not the same as “natural born citizen.”
The Constitution uses the latter, “natural born citizen.” The argument that “natural born citizen”means “born on American soil” is yet to be determined.
To state Cruz is not qualified on that basis is premature at the moment.
Mike,
I do understand what you are saying. I want to point out that you have been fair in your assessments. I commend you for that. I just simply have a problem with Cruz not being American born, but that’s just me. A lawyer in Texas has already filed suit against Cruz challenging his American birth.
I know what you are saying about the parties, it’s just that I believe the Dems are the lessor of the two evils.
The party who booed God is the lesser of two evils?
John,
Who was Jesus more likely to weigh into: the God fearing Pharisees or the tax collectors?
Just asking…
Just saying you are for God don’t make it so.
This is what is called a non sequitur. Using your logic we should vote for the party who booed God.
Jess and all,
From the below cited website:
Among the qualifications to run for president of the United States is the requirement that a candidate must be a “natural born Citizen”. Most legal experts have interpreted that to be anyone who is a citizen at birth and who did not need to undergo a naturalization process to obtain citizenship – a definition under which Cruz would qualify.
In a Harvard Law Review article, two former solicitor generals, Neal Katyal and Paul Clement, wrote: “Despite the happenstance of a birth across the border, there is no question that Senator Cruz has been a citizen from birth and is thus a ‘natural born Citizen’ within the meaning of the Constitution.”
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/12/where-was-ted-cruz-born-citizenship-presidential-debate
It sure seems that those Harvard boys have mixed opinions now don’t they Jess?
parsonmike, you are correct …. it is a simple conclusion according to the established law of the United States. See that code here…https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401
Additionally, you can look at the federalist papers that Hamilton wrote on the subject. Law professors that doubt these documents are like economics professors who think Keynes had a solution.
Chris, I agree with you but it is not settled black letter law. Has never gotten to a federal appeal review , Supreme Court does not want to handle the issue. If Cruz is the pick the Dems will challenge if nothing else to play politics just as Trump is doing. Trump is just being an effective politician with this issue.
steve s,…I can’t counter argue that point, except for the facts that were written outside the “black” letter back to the founding of the country, and the run up to the code that was written. There is “no” doubt that the findings of a Supreme Court would find the current law to be consist that Cruz is a natural born citizen. To your point though, the argument would never reach the Supreme Court, because a lesser court would adjudicate earlier,…but, politically Cruz does suffer. So, the better political game is played by Trump to cause FUD (fear, uncertainly, and doubt); while at the same time the law is a settled issue.
Chris, we agree, If Romney were as effective as Trump at politics vs. Obama 2012 he would be President Romney
absolutely,…Romney allowed a devout socialist to succeed in America.
steve s,…another quick thought. If the argument for “Natural” becomes defined by “dirt, or ground”, and not “intent and humanity”, then there are hoards of laws that will need to be re-written. The whole argument for “natural” has never been about dirt,..and probably the reason that it will never reach the Supreme Court.
Pretty black letter….from US code. Cruz meets this provision…
“(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;”
His mother grew up in Deleware.
Ted Cruz is an American citizen *by virtue of his birth* to a mother who is a citizen and lived in the United States for continuous. Of more than one year.theres nothing to see here –
This is nothing but crooked speak and political posturing by Donald Trump … who ironically is said to be one who shoots straight and doesn’t politically posture – shaking my head.
Tarheel, no doubt. Trump has used the “dirt” argument, which he know to be a red herring, to define the FUD at the moment. All’s fair in the wacky world of politics these days. The problem with the code IMHO is that it brought “dirt” into the fringes of the “actual intent” argument made against “dirt” in the Federalist papers. That is the counter use of the code by Trump against Cruz. If the shoe were on the other foot,…we may have the same argument being made from the other camp.
More applicable;
(g) “a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years”
Probably.
You’re likely right.
Tarheel,
You are leaving out one critical piece of information. The mother of Cruz was a Canadian citizen.
Jess…Eleanor Elizabeth (Darragh) Wilson (Cruz’s mom) was born in Delaware…worked in Canada for 3 years for an oil company.
“You are leaving out one critical piece of information. The mother of Cruz was a Canadian citizen.”
Evidence please.
Mike,
As I understand the argument it has to do with the meaning of the word natural which is what opened up the can of worms.
I do look for this issue to go to the Supreme Court.
Bill Mac,
All you have to do is google it. Ted Cruz’s mother was even eligible to vote in Canada until 2013.
I don’t care what any of you guys say, there is nothing natural about Ted Cruzes birth. His mother and father were Canadian citizens.
You guys do not want to hear the facts. That’s fine with me.
If you dig a little deeper, you will find that the article that discusses Cruz’s mother admits that there is no other evidence that she was a Canadian citizen. Her birth American birth certificate has been produced, and she wasn’t a permanent resident long enough to become a Canadian citizen.
Jess, I understand your desire to get on here and wind people up by taking contradictory positions. But you might want to consider how closely you are coming to bearing false witness. Yes, I’m sure you get some enjoyment out of it, but you really shouldn’t.
Well said, Bill.
Jess… she was on a list, which is not quite the same as being a Citizen. Your argument is the same argument that Hillary uses to say that there were no emails that contained “classified information” on her public email server.
With respect to Cruz,…you simply misunderstand what “natural” means relative to the Constitution of the United States. The parents of Cruz worked at a company in Canada for several years and then returned to the United States, where they are citizens.
This will never see the light day at the Supreme Court, because it has already been solved.
Chris,
Cruz and his family were citizens of Canada. Case closed. There is nothing natural about that. Matter of fact, there were folks here on Voices who said Obama couldn’t run for President. I hope it’s not because of sin color. If it wasn’t okay for Obama what makes it okay for Cruz. It has to be one of two things, skin color or Republican.
Jess, are you trying to argue that someone with dual citizenship cannot be President? I’m not sure about your line of thinking here.
Obama appeared to be qualified to be President from being born in Hawaii, as his mom is well known. I personally think he was never qualified to lead as President because of his ignorance about policy issue, and he has proven that for seven years on major legislation. But, that is simply history now, with little doubt of his failures on healthcare, and increases in debt….they are well documented.
Jess, here is a picture of her birth certificate, which has been widely circulated.
http://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2016/01/09/f7f83caf-91a9-4dcb-b238-faf9c8efbbd9/thumbnail/620×350/7e889d2c5835ec05b7af7b0fe3a693c2/ted-cruz-mother-birth-certificate.jpg
” alt=”” />
Now, the appropriate response would be for you to say, “I was wrong. My information was faulty and I made false statements.”
Dave Miller,
You know I’m not wrong. Let’s say I’m member of David Cline’s Church. Let’s call his church, America. I swore allegiance to a group called Atheist or bust, Canada. Am I a Baptist or an Atheist? his is the predicament Ted Cruz’s parents were in at Ted’s birth, plus his parents were Canadian citizens. There is nothing natural about it. Dave you would vote for Satan if he were a republican. I’m not saying Canadians are Atheists, but I just used an example.
Ted said that Mr. Obama is disqualified, he believed he was Kenyan born. What goes around comes around.
No, Jess.
We all know you are wrong. You are wrong, but too stubborn and deceived by your hate to realize it.
It is one thing to be wrong. We are all wrong at times. But to continue to be wrong when you’ve been shown the facts, when you have been shown the truth – that is willfullness, it is, as Bill said, “Bearing false witness.”
It is LYING, Jess.
You have been shown the truth and you hold on to lies.
You need to stop. You are just making yourself look sad and pathetic. You lose all credibility.
Jess, here is the Wikipedia (font of all truth) article on Ted Cruz.
“Ted Cruz was born on December 22, 1970, at Foothills Provincial General Hospital in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, to parents Eleanor Elizabeth (Darragh) Wilson and Rafael Bienvenido Cruz. At the time of his birth, Cruz’s parents had lived in Calgary for three years and were working in the oil business as owners of a seismic-data processing firm for oil drilling. Cruz has said, “I’m the son of two mathematicians/computer programmers.” In 1974, his father left the family and moved to Texas. Later that same year, his parents reconciled and relocated to Houston.
Cruz’s father was born in Cuba, and his grandfather was from the Canary Islands in Spain. His mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware, and is three quarters Irish and one quarter Italian.”
It’s actually pretty easy to check the facts, if you have any desire to know the truth.
For the record, Ted Cruz is not my guy – he kinda annoys me and I’m not sure why. But his mother was born in DELAWARE and no amount of “JessFACTS” is gonna change that.
Dave,
It’s not Jess facts, I think Harvard Law Professors know better than we do, and the said Cruz has problems when it comes to “natural.”
Good grief. Cruz may have a problem but it is NOT because his mother was a Canadian citizen.
Jess,
I’m not voting for Cruz, or at least not in the Ohio primary.
But you show yourself as one who stirs up trouble for trouble’s sake.
As quoted before we read:
In a Harvard Law Review article, two former solicitor generals, Neal Katyal and Paul Clement, wrote: “Despite the happenstance of a birth across the border, there is no question that Senator Cruz has been a citizen from birth and is thus a ‘natural born Citizen’ within the meaning of the Constitution.”
The Harvard Law Review represents Harvard and thus would include your two professors. And they thought it noteworthy to publish the opinions of two former solicitor generals, which by definition is: the law officer directly below the attorney general in the US Department of Justice, responsible for arguing cases before the US Supreme Court.
And these two esteemed gentlemen disagree with your professors [link please].
Does that mean they are right? No, of course not.
But you should quit stating as fact what two [possibly politically motivated] professors are declaring as true. You don’t know.
The Lord didn’t say Blessed are the troublemakers.
Mike,
So what! No skin off my back to give my opinion. I happened to watch two Harvard law professors on national television say that Cruz had a problem.
Mike, I don’t mind stirring up trouble if I think I’m right. What’s more is I don’t care what you think. Opinions are like noses, every boy has one.
Trust me, I will never lose any sleep over what someone thinks. I’m too old for that kind of drama.
I read everything you say, I don’t hate you or put you down for it. I do attack those who attack me for sharing what I think. End of story.
Thats right Jess,
You attack others. You belittle them for their opinions.
You state things as true when you don’t know they are.
I guess Jesus said: slap those who slap you first.
Cruz might have a problem.
True statement. Some people think so. Some don’t.
Cruz has a problem because his mother was a Canadian citizen.
False statement.
Dave,
I’ve shown you the truth, does your hatred and stubbornness cause you to continue in your false witness. I feel the same way about you guys as you feel about me, except for the hate part, the Lord will not allow me to hate. From what I’m hearing, and your hateful comments the hate isn’t on my part.
Anyone with any common sense knows the Republican party isn’t the way to go. We “have” to have a president that will represent all the people, not just the Baptist church. I believe in total separation between church and state. If we ever become a country ruled by religion, I’ll move to Canada.
I have already seen you guys don’t know the difference between a lie and the truth. If you used the KJV you might know the difference, but since you don’t……….
Jess, the KJV has only been found to have a few errors. There are better translations, from earlier transcripts. But, the KJV is not a bad version, as long as you can explain those instances of inaccuracy to those you are teaching.
Chris Johnson,
You have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t care anything about the dual citizenship of Cruz. I only repeated what the two Harvard law professors said on national television. The Professors said Cruz has a problem as to what is considered as natural birth.
Obama is one of the finest Presidents we have ever had. He brought this country from the shambles of the George Bush era to an economy every country wished they had. We are safe, not in a major war, and getting back on track. The greatest threat to our country is white males with guns. You can google that too. I’m scared each time a republican becomes president.
You all haven’t seen a depression like the one we will have if we get a republican president at this time.
If you preachers can handle your offerings cut in half or more by all means vote for your republican candidate. I’m finished with this thread.
Jess, you seem to be ignorant of the facts on politics and bible translations (KJV). And, I am not being rude by saying ignorant, but only mean you have zero facts to back up your rhetoric. Even your rhetoric on Bush. Obama and Bush were very much alike fiscally, which is unfortunate for all Americans.
I’m not one to give any politician a pass. Bush made his lion share of bad policy, yet he did have some moral backbone, but that is about it. Obama is even worse fiscally. Debt means nothing to him. He is a Keynes extremist.
If Obama remained as the leader of the country, the Constitution of the United States would cease to exist. Thank God this country was wise enough to limit a man to 8 years in order to help preserve the foundational philosophy of the US Constitution!
should say…”limit a man or a woman”… God forbid Hillary stays out of jail in order to run for the President.
Chris,
Where are your facts?
Let’s see Jess how this fine Prez has led the country economically.
“USA Falls From 6th Freest Economy to 11th Under Obama…”
http://dailysign.al/1Q7NkxT
Les,
Good job at posting right wing articles. LOL
Jess, I would tell you to just dispute the facts rather than trashing the source. But you can’t. So don’t embarrass yourself any more by trying to refute the facts of the article.
Guys,
Jess is nothing more than a troll. He’s all about stirring up strife and discord. I am not even sure if he really believes what he spews. It took me way too long to realize it. Let’s just ignore him and hopefully he’ll eventually go away.
Guys, I would suggest simply ignoring Jess. He does not listen to facts. He simply spouts left-wing opinions and hate speech toward anyone who disagrees with his politics.
There is little to be gained from arguing with him. You can show him a fact, and unless it comes from the Democratic headquarters, he won’t believe it.
Best to simply ignore him and move on to something else. There is nothing to be gained by attempting to talk sense to someone who will not talk sense, or to use logic to someone who will not listen to logic. When someone is shown facts and refuses to hear facts, there is not a point in continuing to present facts.
“And that’s a fact, Jack”
Dave,
Thank you, that is the first right think you have done for me. I would love to comment without a follow up by a bunch whiners. Just be sure to include yourself.
Evidently Iowa voters are not as stupid as Donald Trump suggested. Cruz wins Iowa. Trump in second but only barely ahead of Rubio. Look for Trump to go ballistic.
I got to the caucus and got very scared. There were probably triple the normal number of folks, and many were filling out the registration cards to become Republicans. My sense was that we were likely seeing independents coming to vote for the Donald.
That is what happened. My heart sank when they announced the results of the vote. We had a strong vote majority for Trump in both 29 and 30 (the two precincts that meet together). In one Rubio was second and in the Cruz was second, but Trump won both. I left thinking that my nightmare was coming true – Trump was going to win the Iowa caucuses.
I was thrilled when I got home later (after gassing up and doing some preparation for the big snow storm headed our way) and found that Trump was a loser in the race, and that Marco Rubio very nearly beat him for second place, finishing just one point behind.
So, I’m very encouraged that we may have dealt the initial blow to the Trump insanity movement. Maybe sanity will be restored.
Realize this, folks. 76% of the people who came to vote at the caucuses tonight said NO to Donald Trump. The Sanity Vote has to coalesce around a candidate other than Donald Trump – either Rubio or Cruz – and the craziness will come to an end.
Dave,
Iowa is not the standard for the rest of the country.
Jess,
Here is an excellent book that we use every year for our high school and college age students. The principles of Godly governance are enumerated in this concise read. Might be helpful to understand the principles of how God has designed business.
http://www.amazon.com/Business-Glory-God-Teaching-Goodness/dp/1581345178
Dave, I really like the process in Iowa. What I found most interesting was the turnout. Pretty encouraging for Republicans and hopefully that will carry forward through a long campaign.
The other interesting thing was to see the Democratic parties race toward socialism. That is astounding, since I can remember my family back in Texas in the 70’s were Democrats and extremely conservative, low taxes, free trade, etc. The Democratic party has completely forgotten what made America the most powerful economic and moral engine in the world for a time. Its the last 40 years of socialist movements that began back in the early 1900s that have systematically weakened and pulled apart the engine that led the world. Its really appalling how far the Democratic party has fallen for the sake of power and governmental greed.
America seems to be waking up to a small degree. But, it will take several generations of hard work to undo the tragedy of the political class (both Democratic and Republican) that has moved America toward a socialist form of government that our forefathers in this country knew would be nipping at their heals. Human nature…..
You know what, Chris Johnson, I agree with you.
I like the methodology of the Caucus as used in Iowa. It seems to bring about a lot of personal involvement from the voters.
Yes sir, folks in Iowa have the political process down to a fine art form, now when it comes to football . . . . . . . well, not so much. 😉
Birds have a hard time flying through “high Tide”! 🙂
I know that a lot of people question whether we should be “first in the nation” and I can’t give a solid reason why we should.
But I can say this, Iowans take our role seriously. We go to rallies and examine the candidates. We watch debates and figure out what is going on. There is likely not a more politically savvy and educated political state than Iowa, because we take our role seriously.
For reasons I don’t understand, the nation has entrusted us with the role of candidate gatekeeper. We cull the herd down to a manageable number.
Whether you like our role or not, we take it seriously.
It seems that Iowa has resisted the “instructions” and predictions of many political pundits within the various mediums from both the left and the right.
I found it funny listening to some of this last night and this morning trying to regain their “authoritative posture” regarding their predictions about the Iowa Caucus.
Yes… I loved just seeing the rooms full of people, and their children, becoming interested in how our nation’s representatives spend the money sent to them to allocate. Frankly, the entire US would benefit greatly using this same structure, and the “Progressives” would not be so progressive in how their money is spent (or allocated to bizarre activity). It is the beauty of the American system…a Republic based upon free market principles.
Dave, observing from a distance, I agree Iowa is probably the best choice to be the first. In my circle, few of us would care to caucuse if it meant every candidate had representatives speak before we voted. Also, my experience is Mississippians are more private with their choice. Iowans appear to walk the caucus sharing who they supported.
On another note, I believe Trump skipping the debate before the Iowa caucuses hurt him more than anything in Iowa. While the rest of the nation may have thought it cute it seemed to offend Iowans.
I’m not sure how much skipping the debate hurt Trump. I’m sure it didn’t help him. But his support in Iowa was NEVER as strong as the national press tried to make it sound.
I agree, Trump didn’t poll strong in Iowa as he did in other parts of the nation. The contest was close enough that if he would have done well in the debate rather than making a cartoon out of the last debate before the caucuses – who knows?
In a stunning turn of events, Trump is blaming his loss on unfair treatment by the media. This is the same media that is partially responsible for the fact that he is competitive in this race at all, with all the free publicity they have given him. He also says voters aren’t giving him enough credit for self-funding his campaign. Let me be the first to say that I am extremely happy that my tax dollars aren’t funding his traveling sideshow.
No, scratch that. To be fair, Trump is not blaming his Iowa loss on the media. He is blaming the media for not saying what an incredible feat coming in second in Iowa is.
I’ll be glad when we get down to one Republican and one Democrat for president. The nonsense will have to stop, we will then see who has the substance. This is where the republican candidate will come up short, and it will be very clear what the republicans stand for. I have a feeling America will not like it and vote in a democrat before it’s too late.
If you believe republicans will create jobs, raise your hand. I thought so.
Just a little note of reminder….the govt/president/politicians do NOT create jobs…except, of course by expanding its own departments by way of taxing and regulating citizens and then hiring people to tax and regulate the citizens.
The private sector (entrepreneurs) both “large” and “small” actually create jobs – and the dems want to tax and regulate job creators (entrepreneurs) to death and that impedes the creation of jobs.
“The private sector (entrepreneurs) both “large” and “small” actually create jobs . . .”
That is called capitalism. It is a good thing. I know some folks don’t think so, but they are wrong — very, very wrong.
Yep, CB. Yep, indeed.
Since the income tax was implemented in 1913, the following Presidents;
Harding, Coolidge decreased the US Debt. (both Republicans)
Wilson, Hoover, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama increased US Debt.
The highest debt “Trillion” dollar accumulators are (due to Keynesian economic theories and Fed Policy):
Obama 6.61 Trillion – so far
W. Bush 5.84 Trillion
Reagan 1.86 Trillion
H.W. Bush – 1.55 Trillion
Clinton – 1.39 Trillion
Jess, the speculation of the Government by infusing dollars into the economy (socialism) to prop up job creation has historically been a bubble maker, not an economic engine of stability. Unfortunately, Obama does not even understand these differences, but some in the Republican line up this go around actually do. As you can see from the past trillion dollar club, poor policy comes from both the left and right. Obama’s policies simply make the the top tier (less than 1%) more wealthy, because the fiscal policy that Obama implements is written by those folks. He and Ms. Clinton are in the same barter club with the same 1% club. They are stealing you blind. Bush was no different.
You might want to reconsider the Keynes economic path you support and begin to understand how to create equity for the poor. Anything that is received from the Government…. “free” education, “free” healthcare, etc. decrease equity for the middle class, and continue to make equity gains impossible for the poor. The policies that you are supporting are in a huge way causing the poor to be poorer, the homeless to remain homeless longer, and the middle class to obtain less equity over time.
The fact that you think a president can or SHOULD create jobs shows how twisted your thinking is.
Business and industry create jobs. The president is supposed to manage the executive branch of the government. The only jobs he creates are government jobs, funded by taxpayers, which often drain the economy.
You really need to learn how the American economy and government work, Jess.
Jess,
Your home state suffers due to government interference with free enterprise (capitalism). The EPA and its Democratic cheerleader squad (Head cheerleader is the POTUS) is putting coal and gas production out of business. Your friends, relatives, and church members suffer from lack of work.
Jess, I just can’t help but think you are just larking or raggin’ on these guys when you write some of the things you write in these threads. For, it not, you have become blind to the plight of your own people.
A shepherd must never fail to see the wolf coming. If he does, he is derelict of his duty.
I used to be the operator of a coal mine, I also have worked underground. I think I know how business works.
I have worked like a dog all my life, Yep I know how business works. Dave, you do not!
How many of the jobs at your coal mine did any president create?
Dave, actually many jobs. The president sets the tone for jobs to be created. Why do you think our wonderful president has had around 60 months straight of job growth. It only takes a Republican president about 12 months to put a stop to the job growth. I’m talking about business not government jobs.
Look what Reagan, 8% unemployment, under trickle down economics. Obama started with over 8% and it’s down to 5%. I rest my case. A democrat president is good for the country.
CB Scott,
I consider you a smart man, and I have always had a lot of respect for you. I like the way you think. Even if you and I disagree on certain issues I still respect you because of the way you carry yourself. You don’t come unglued when someone disagrees with you. CB, you state your case with a love it or leave it mentality. I admire that about you.
I would like to point out that the problem in the coal industry is natural gas. It’s cheaper to produce than coal. In Wyoming, some of the coal seams are 100 feet thick, therefore it’s cheaper to get out of the ground than Ky. coal. Kentucky just simply cannot compete with cheap coal.
CB we have to have what some call big government. EPA, OSHA, MSHA, FDA, DOT, and a host of other agency’s. Back in the early 70’s, I was working in a chemical plant, I made caulking and other industrial materials. One of the things we used were large bags of stuff called asbestos, it would get into the air we breathed. One day OSHA came for an inspection, the company broke out dust masks for us, and told us to wear them while OSHA was with us. The company knew what asbestos would do to us, but we didn’t. Many of the folks I worked with have died long ago.
When I was in the coal mine, MSHA would make us wear dust collecting machines to see what we were exposed to, we would have to wear the machines for 8 hours. When MSHA would leave the coal company would make us put the machines in a place where there was no dust, so it would look like we were not exposed to coal dust.
All I can say is I thank God for labor unions who force the companies to do what is right when the inspectors were not around. I thank God for Social Security Insurance and Medicare. These are some of the programs that the Republicans want to cut. It’s nonsense and devilish to even think about cutting these wonderful programs.
Republicans are for big business and not for the working man. Our churches are made up of hard working people trying to raise a family. We pastor’s have no business in politics or going against the working men and women that are the backbone of this country. I don’t think pastor’s of today have a clue of what the working people of this nation goes through. Our money is used to shore up big businesses, when they don’t even need it.
I used to be a hard nosed republican and actually hated democrats, and didn’t even want to be around them when I found out what they were.
Now, my friend, I’m a proud democrat and will not change. I love most things the democratic party stands for. All this Conservative business is a joke. Let me tell you what socialism really is, it’s giving free money to big business that doesn’t even need it. It’s giving money t a congress that will not even work for the people. I can go on and on, but what’s the use.
We can become a country of clean energy and create millions of jobs while doing it. But the oil companies have the politician’s in their back pocket’s.
CB I respect you, you try to show respect for me, you are an alright guy. I don’t see things the way you do, but you don’t try to belittle me for it. I talk to you man to man, because that’s what you show yourself to;be, and a good one. Thank you for the true conversation.
Jess,
First, let me thank you for your kind words toward me. However, the content of your statement about me demands a clarification on my part, lest I appear a hypocrite to many who read Baptist blogs.
Many who comment here have been doing so from the very beginning of Baptist blogs. Individuals such as Dave Miller, Debbie Kaufman, William Thornton, John Fariss, and others. They could all give a different summary of me from the early years and be right in doing so. I just wanted to state that to you, Jess.
Jess, I realize we need some of the agencies you have mentioned. Back in the day, coal operators near killed and did kill many of you here in these mountains due to their greed. Had it not been for union organizers, nothing would have changed. I believe that. Government agencies and unions did much to help the men who mined coal.
However, like so many times in history, those same agencies began to “go too far” in their authority and “take too much” from coal operators. The same can be said of the unions. The UMWA has, in many ways, forgotten the people for whom they were/are to represent. Greed came to play in contract negotiations and, in the end, the coal miners lost.
Jess, there are many mine engineers who know how to mine the coal in these mountains more economically, cleaner, and safer. They know how to convert it in to “clean energy” also. However, government agencies and the current administration will not let them. The POTUS has basically revealed that he wants to end the use of coal in America and that includes the coal mining in the western states. That is the truth.
The men and women of KY, WVA, and VA who work in the coal industry have greatly suffered at the hands of government oversight. — maybe I should say “government overreaching.”
CB Scott,
It’s easier to produce cheap natural gas than o produce coal. Power companies are going to natural gas. Kentucky is almost out of coal, what is left is hard to get to coal which costs a lot more to produce. I was a Ky. Mine Foreman for ten years, I have even subcontracted mines for my company to operate. Just because a seam of coal is there doesn’t mean you can get it out of the ground. When you have a water pump beside you every minute it’s nearly impossible to get the coal out of the ground.
Thank you again CB
Jess,
I must confess you know more about the coal industry than do I. However, I must ask, it it not true that BTU output from coal is higher than that of natural gas?
Therefore, is it not true that there is a need for the use of both to provide the clean energy that America needs? And surely, you are right. There is less of an abundance of coal than in the past in these mountains. However, has not technology advanced,making it easier to mine coal?
Jess, I speak here from no real experience. I have never mined coal. Yet, I have ministered to many in their lives and I have buried far too many who died young from working in a coal mine.
As, I stated, I never mined coal. A lot of what I have stated here comes from listening to mining engineers who graduated from VT, UT, and other institutions.
Jess, let me also state, I am glad to be back in these mountains of your heritage and that of many others like you. One thing I can say about the Appalachian culture; It is a healing culture for those of us who come here and allow ourselves to receive it.
CB,
Where are you in Ky.?
CB
The BTU output is probably higher than natural gas, but we must look at the cost. Right now natural gas is cheaper. Coal is not the same everywhere therefore it’s hard to determine it’s Btu’s. Some companies use a grass called Switch Grass to add to it’s coal to boost it’s BTU’s while going into the furnace. Texans know a lot about Switch Grass. There have been tests to see if it will grow in Ky. and it does. But it’s not feasible.
Jess,
I am in Floyd County. I serve McDowell FBC as pastor.
Concerning coal, Southern Company is making good headway in Kemper County, Miss in clean coal technology. It is just a matter of time, and money, before this technology is available and the retrofitting of coal plants will return coal to a viable source of energy. I am a Health Physicist working in Nuclear Power for Southern Company and clean coal along with new Nuclear (Augusta Ga) is going to keep energy cheap and plentiful for a long time (relatively speaking). Right now, Southern Company is making a lot of money from cheap natural gas. Most of our coal plants were designed as dual-fuel and can operate with either coal or natural gas. The profits from cheap natural gas is fueling the research into clean coal and valuable lessons as we re-learn how to build new Nuclear plants.
To your point Donald, I love how free market drives innovation. When regulation is properly constructed, with free market focus, innovation leads to more efficiency and ultimately better products. We simply need less and more efficient government, incentivized to induce free market initiatives.
All of the federal government, for the past 45 years, has promoted inefficient government expansionism through taxation or monetary policy (regardless of party affiliation). That must be reversed.
Donald,
I have listened to people having discussions about the retrofitting of coal plants, but do not have the understanding to articulate what I had heard.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Politico (surprisingly) does a pretty good job with this article, including the struggles. The plant was only 25% designed when construction began in 2010 and is way behind and way over-budget. However, Southern Company is determined that this is the future.
http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2015/05/billion-dollar-kemper-clean-coal-energy-project-000015
Donald,
Thank you for sharing this article. I will pray it becomes operational and renews an industry that many people depend on for their livelihood.
They are salt-of-the-earth people need two things in their lives. They need Jesus and they need work. I am praying for them to have both. I ask any and all on these threads to do the same, if you will.
Donald: I haven’t read the Politico article yet, but I will. Frankly I’ve always thought clean coal was an oxymoron. Are we really going to be able to burn coal without the toxic emissions, or just transferring the waste byproducts from one wastestream to another?
I don’t want coal miners out of work any more than I want tobacco farmers out of work, but it’s hard for me to envision coal that is extracted from the ground without massive disruption and then burned cleanly. Maybe the article answers all that, so feel free to just defer to the article if so. It seems to me that natural gas and perhaps nuclear are the best energy options.
It’s a pretty well balanced article.
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-FW935_presjo_G_20141205131247.jpg
Of course, the economy is much larger today than it was 50 years ago, and so it’s also worth looking at the change in percentage terms. Here, too, Mr. Obama has passed the Bush and Ford presidencies. In percentage terms, he falls behind Mr. Kennedy. (In an earlier post, we looked at the previous eight periods of economic expansion. The current recovery ranks fifth out of eight in terms of total job creation, or sixth out of eight in percentage terms.)
A range of caveats apply. The president has, at best, only partial control over the course of the economy, especially during his early months in office. The timing of when recessions strike has a key influence on how presidents rank, and economists don’t really believe that presidential policies are the primary cause of sharp economic downturns. Congress can thwart good legislation or pass bad legislation. The Federal Reserve, many members of which were appointed by the previous guy, may make policy errors or set great policy. Demographics and international economic conditions drive much of the economy too.
The labor market is clearly improving, but due in large part to the terrible economy when Mr. Obama took office, his presidency will probably be unable to catch up with those who presided during job booms.
from:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/12/05/in-ranking-presidents-by-job-creation-obama-still-lags/
Jess, this is the most responsible thing you have said so far…”Let me tell you what socialism really is, it’s giving free money to big business that doesn’t even need it. It’s giving money t a congress that will not even work for the people.”
Obama’s record is that he is doing what you said more than anyone in history. I gave you the list of the biggest offenders in including the Bush family…and Obama, now Hillary, and especially Bernie want to make giving free money to big business even bigger (QE). Its too bad you can’t see the fallacies of their ways.
Capitalism is not that at all.
You seem to trust Government more with your money, than having it to spend on your own. That is what socialism is…. a small group of folks that convince a big group of folks that they are better at distributing a “money system” than those that work and earn a wage. That type of government (socialism) is death to equity, death to innovation, and death to real progress.
Chris Johnson,
Yes, I trust government. I’m proud of government and our country. The government watches over our welfare. They keep wall street in check. I just don’t trust a republican government.
I’m unchangeable on this issue. I feel obligated to look out for America.
I too am blessed to live in America Jess,…. and God has allowed you and I the blessed freedom to live in a country where we disagree on how freedom is maintained. That is a good thing! Blessings to you brother.
Chris Johnson,
hank you for the meaningful conversation. God bless you.
Natural gas is cheaper and cleaner than coal, and coal importing countries such as China are getting it cheaper from places like Indonesia. The strong US dollar is exacerbating the decline in coal exports. Coal mining may well be an industry like tobacco farming, where the handwriting is on the wall.
If you’ve ever been to Beijing, the air pollution, mostly coal related, is frightening. Sometimes it is like being in a whiteout, unable to see the cars in front of you. The first time I visited China, our eyes began to burn before we left the airport, and that was in Shanghai almost ten years ago. It is much worse now. Much of the air pollution is also motor-vehicle caused.
Bill Mac,
So true!