Christians today seem to find a way to argue and even divide over just about everything, don’t we? There is a growing rift in some churches and between some Christians over the decision that parents make about how to educate their children.
Our four children went to Christian schools, public schools, and even homeschooled a little. We tried it all. We found a system that worked well for us – the Miller System of Edumacation! We put our kids in Christian schools through eighth grade to get a solid foundation, then put them into the public schools where there were educational and extracurricular opportunities that simply were not available in Christian schools. One son (with help from another) designed and built from the ground up an electric car that competed in Electrathon races (I won’t tell you that his car broke the state record, because that would be bragging.) My younger son and daughter were involved in show choir and drama – again, opportunities not available in the local Christian school. Jenni homeschooled our daughter one year in elementary school.
The Miller plan worked well for the Miller kids.
But other families have other plans for educating their children. Some parents believe that they should be their children’s teachers not only in spiritual things, but in math and science and reading and everything else. So, the school their children at home. Others, for various reasons, either cannot or choose not to take on this burden and pay the tuition to put their children in Christian schools, partnering with the teachers to instruct their children. Many, whether out of necessity or conviction, send their children to the local public schools.
That is a choice each family must make on behalf of their own children. Unfortunately, some people are not content to let each family make its own decision on these issues. They appoint themselves as the church’s “ministers of educational meddling” and go around telling everyone else how they should educate their children. That, of course, usually leads to hard feelings and even division.
Some are absolutely convinced that homeschooling is superior to every other form of education and that those who do not homeschool are letting their children down and compromising spiritual values. Others believe that it is wrong to shelter children and that it is best to guide them to live righteously in spite of peer pressure – even to be witnesses and influences in the spiritually needy public school system. Some kind of split the difference by sending their children to Christian schools.
Every family is different and every child is different. While certainly, parents are to be the primary influence on their young children, how they teach them to read and write and do arithmetic is not something the Bible mandates. Each parent should do what is best for their children.
And they should leave other families alone.
I was a youth minister for five years early in my ministry and I’ve continued being involved with youth throughout my 30 years in ministry. I’ve seen a lot of children grow up and become adults. I’ve seen homeschoolers and public schoolers and Christian schoolers. And I simply have not seen evidence that one form of schooling is de facto superior to all the others. I’ve seen some wonderful homeschool children grow into godly young men and women. And I’ve seen some homeschool kids who grew up to be real stinkers. I’ve seen kids grow up in Christian schools and become men and women of spiritual depth. And I’ve seen some whose faith is about as genuine as Kim Kardashian’s wedding vows. I’ve seen public school kids who gave in to the ways of world and some who learned to stand strong against the pressures of the world and serve Jesus!
I do not believe that there is one way to educate children. But I do believe that when parents try to impose their educational decisions on others, they cause aggravation and even division in churches. I have become increasingly aware of conflict in churches that roots in divisions over the way parents choose to educate their children.
Each of these forms of schooling has its advantages and disadvantages. I’ll give you my observations about each. But I believe it is your choice as parents how you are going to raise your children. And I think that spiritual busybodies ought to stop trying to impose their educational choices on others.
Advantages and Disadvantages of Public Schools.
Obviously, public schools are less expensive and offer opportunities for sports, the arts and some academic subjects that other schools don’t have. While public schools offer greater temptations and more negative influences, they offer parents the opportunity to teach their children to resist peer pressure and to be witnesses to those who need Christ.
The biggest problem with public schools is that they have often become devoted to educational philosophies that are contrary to the Christian faith and are even sometimes hostile to Christianity. That varies from region to region around the country.
Another disadvantage of public schools is that they have to educate everyone. Sometimes, they focus more on the struggling student and less on those who are academically advanced. So, an advanced student can become bored with school while the teacher focuses on meeting the needs of the ones who don’t learn as quickly.
Of course, public school education usually guarantees that a child will come in contact with a wider variety of people – races, nationalities, socioeconomic levels, and such.
Advantages and Disadvantages of Christian Schools
Not all Christian schools are created equal. The Christian school my children attended in Cedar Rapids maintained high academic standards – at one point the parents actually had to band together to say that we felt that perhaps the demands were getting out of hand. But my children got an excellent foundation in reading and in other core academic subjects. And my children could be involved in sports and others activities that perhaps would have been much more competitive at larger public schools.
The downside of Christian schools is that some are poorly run and not as academically advanced as the one I just mentioned. Some present a Christianity of rules more than a vibrant faith. Young people can grow up in a Christian school and be “good kids” without a vibrant faith based in a personal relationship with Christ. Christian schools can sometimes pressure outside conformity to faith without producing inner passion for Christ.
Advantages and Disadvantages of Homeschooling
Obviously, the best part of homeschooling is that the parents are the primary influence on the children. Children are shielded from the sinful world. Homeschoolers are able to spend less time on school and so are free to get involved in fun activities in addition to their studies. Obviously, if you watch the annual spelling bee, homeschoolers have the freedom to pursue their academics and some become very advanced. In fact, if you have a very high IQ student, homeschooling makes more and more sense.
But contrary to what some homeschoolers have told me, there are some serious disadvantages to the homeschool experience – dangers that should not be ignored. Here are some I have seen.
- If dysfunctional parents homeschool, they tend to magnify the dysfunction in their kids. Some of the best kids I’ve known have been homeschoolers, but some of the most messed up as well. It comes down to parents.
- I’ve known homeschool parents who were lackadaisical and disorganized in their education duties and their children did not receive a very good education.
- Here’s the big one. Some homeschool families seem to operate as isolationists. They only want their kids around other homeschool kids who share their values. They don’t participate in youth groups or children’s groups if there are kids attending who have “worldier” values. But you cannot obey the Great Commission at the same time you isolate yourself from the needy world. There is one church in our town that is basically a homeschool-only enclave. Good people. But I don’t think that a church like that understands the missional purpose of the church.
Concluding Thoughts
1) Make an informed decision about what is best for you and your children. There are options.
2) Do not try to impose your choices on others. Let other families make their decisions as you made yours.
3) The church is not a country club for superior saints, it is a hospital for sinners. Our youth and childrens ministries need to reflect this. We cannot be the church and keep sinners out of our fellowship. Sinners may have children that are not as clean, tidy and well-behaved as our little angels, but if we do not welcome the poorly behaved child into our church, I think we offend God. Churches need homeschoolers, public school kids, those who attend Christian schools. That diversity may be difficult, but it is beneficial for the church and even for those who are
A Question
Is the conflict that I have seen in churches in this region a problem in ministries to children and youth in other areas? Do you observe that homeschool/public school dichotomy that I have seen? Maybe this is only a problem around here? I wonder.
As a youth pastor, I do not advocate one form of schooling over another and I have made strides to reach out to the students that come from all three scenarios you described. And for the most part, the families do leave each other alone.
But, as a parent, my girls are never going to a public school. Ever. Not just because it’s an almost thoroughly secular education. Not just because of dealing with bullying or lousy teachers. I was a substitute public school teacher for 3 years and saw more than enough at the “good” schools to know that your kids and mine are being exposed to FAR more content than we should be comfortable with. But, I won’t put them in public school because I disagree at a core level the idea of government run, taxpayer-funded schooling. On principle, I will not put my girls in public school.
If you study the history of public schooling as a concept, you will see that it is rife with socialist/communist ideas and it is designed to make sure that students do not reach their fullest potential. Not to mention how poorly most counties run their schools, financially and otherwise. I just cannot support a system that has these irredeemable core factors.
There are more things to consider as a parent than just how good the school is or giving your kid a variety of experiences (almost all can be done without including public school).
Interesting, I was a youth pastor, now an associate pastor, substitute taught for 5 years in an Arizona school that was less that stellar, but my kids (including my daughter) are in public school. My view was in doing high school and college ministry, my strongest students, best leaders, most theologically sound and most refined (as if by fire) all came out of public school. I spent my time looking at “why” and how to support them and I found one strong thing. Parents are the strongest influence, and time in public school can become a strong mission field, allowing students to live out their faith. In the New Testament, it seems that each Christian is on mission from Salvation on. The kids in Communist countries and Muslim countries remain serious about their faith, while our kids fall away in droves. My kids, the youth at my church and the ones I mentor, they see the problems with the “Secular Humanism” in the public school, and they are on mission, living out their faith and they know they must depend on the Holy Spirit. As they do, they grow in their faith, just like we see the faith in the first church, in China and other closed countries.
This is just my experience, I am NOT telling you that you need to publically educate your children. I just see our correlation, that we both worked in youth ministry and have kids, but have a different opinion. Just wanted to express my view.
Dan: The problem isn’t with kids that are your kids’ age. When they hit high school, especially 11th/12th grade, you gotta give them some kind of voice in where they go to school. Especially if they see themselves as on mission like you say. Now, as pro-private school as I am, I supported one of my youth going to public school her senior year because she felt like her parents couldn’t really teach her any more than she already has learned from them and she wanted an evangelistic presence on her campus. But, at that point, she had a pretty thorough Christian worldview so her ability to discern situations was on a much higher level than most teens.
I do have a problem with the idea of kids who don’t have a Christian worldview walking onto a public school campus and trying to swim with the sharks.
It is interesting you mentioned that the one correlation was strong parenting. I couldn’t agree more. Simple question: Which environment is more likely to encourage the parent/child relationship: public school or private?
I think your question is invalid, and I don’t mean that as a criticism, I think we have given the school too much authority in our kids life. The environment doesn’t matter, I am the father of my children and it’s my job to foster the parent/child relationship, I don’t need an educational environment to foster the relationship.
Like I said, when i was a youth pastor, my strongest and most solid kids had a faith based home life, involved parents and involved in church. It’s not about the educational system, it’s about the primary relationships.
Dan,
I think you have a very valid point here. “We have given the school too much authority in our children’s lives.”
We will shape our children’s worldview around God and His Word or someone else will instill in them their worldview.
Only 4% or adults live according to a biblical worldview. Therefore, if we want our children to have a biblical worldview as adults, we must take the primary role in shaping it.
It is not invalid. My parents did their level best as Christians to raise me with a Biblical worldview and with healthy relationships. But, from experience now I know that the resistence they received from public school in certain decisions (like sex education) made it tough on them unnecessarily. It also made it tough on them because I picked up some nasty habits in school that I simply would not have picked up at a Christian school because they don’t put up with that nonsense (usually). So, yes it does matter and deep down you know it does. I find a little disingenious that you would say it doesn’t matter when you’ve been in the private school sector. You know the difference in habits and behavior. Student after student who come to our school work on those bad habits and we see progress in them, just to have them transfer to a public school and see those bad habits come right back. If you think that doesn’t put extra strain on a relationship between parent and child, then I honestly don’t know what to say to you.
I agree it counts most at home. It is not the school’s responsibility to raise your kids. It’s yours. My brother, sister, and I SURVIVED public school because of our awesome parents. But, if the school keeps getting in the way or does little to nothing to help your child progress, then it is your responsibility to put them in a school that does a better job in a helping a Christian parent.
In short, it IS about the educational system when the educational system interrupts or slows down progress made at home.
We must agree to disagree ndefalco, because I went to public school and I learned so much and grew so much in my faith because of the FCA, my youth group and my parents. I experienced some persecution, but it was when I was still under my parents shelter and I was cared for and learned to move through it. I had solid kids in every youth group with the same experience. I grew the most in my faith at a fine arts, state, secular university as I learned to defend my faith, as I did ministry, and as I served my BSU.
I also thinking that kids don’t get the same bad habits in Christian school is a little naive. 2 types of kids in Christian schools, those who’s parents want them to be in a Christian environment because they love Christ, and the kids who got kicked out of public school. I had a sibling who was the latter, and she taught a lot of innocent kids some very not-so-innocent things. I think the view that kids learn bad things in secular schools and not in Christian Schools is. . . .well wrong.
ndefalco:
You are a youth pastor, which is great.
But do you say these things in your church?
Louis, I don’t really have to say them. I’ve written enough on my own blog for them to know if they want to know. Also, I am a full-time private school teacher, so it is pretty obvious where my loyalty lies. To this day, I have never verbalized to any of my parents at church where my kids will end up going to school for the simple fact that it immediately polarizes and ostracizes families. Since I don’t consider it a sin to homeschool or public school a child, then I don’t have a problem coming alongside them and ministering to their student within that context.
ndefalco:
It’s good that you are handling it well.
What is your ministry context? Rural, suburban, urban? What ages does your particular ministry cover – high school only, or junior high and middle school, too?
What is the demographic of your youth group? How many kids total? What percentage of the families are homeschool, private Christian, private secular, and public?
Do you have intentional outreach into the private secular and public schools that is unique from what you do to reach homeschool and private Christian kids? If so, tell me about the outreach that is uniquely directed to private secular and public schools.
Thanks.
Louis just lawyered up on ndefalco. 🙂
CB:
That certainly was NOT my intent. His response seemed reasonable. I was just trying to get a hand on the demographic and strategy of that church.
The public schools in many places are bad, and educational choices vary greatly. I was wanting to learn about the church generally to see how this one particular youth pastor handled things.
Louis,
I was raggin’ on you. No malice intended. I got a kick out of the way you put those questions out like a machine-gunner on a Puff the Magic Dragon out of a C-130
I cover middle/high school and it’s mostly suburban mindset, but some rural (some of our youth come from a small town on the outskirts). I have about 15-20 in our youth group. And we have had a pretty even balance of private,public, and home school youth. Recently, we have seen an influx of mostly public school students.
My outreach efforts between private and public school is the same because there are lost students at private schools, too. So, there really is no difference in my approach. Homeschooled students are different though. I try to encourage neighborhood outreach with them, but they mostly learn evangelism by going on mission trips. I see my job with homeschoolers to get them out of the house and around their peers and other adults as much as possible.
I do not see myself as an advice-giver to parents on where to send their kids to school. I am not a parent of a teen and honestly it is more important to have them on my side as a youth pastor, where I have a gospel influence in their family. But, if I did have a parent come to me to ask me where I think where they should send their kid, I would put all the options on the table and give pros and cons to all of them.
Not sure if that answers your questions, but there you go.
Good article, Dave.
-The public school option vastly depends on where you live. There are places where the public school environment isn’t any more toxic than the Christian schools are. Yes, you will always have sinful kids (in all situations) but the biggest difference is whether sin is promoted on an organizational level either through official policy or apathy. We wouldn’t send our children to Mormon school or a madrasa, and yet in some public schools, secular humanism operates as the permeating religion in everything taught. Here, in Missouri, public schooling can be a reasonable option in many places. In New York where we’re moving, I’m thinking the chance of public school for our family will shrink drastically.
-Christian schools may have trouble confusing one’s spiritual status and one’s school status (tardies, failing grades). Necessary institutional rules like dress codes can get confused as scriptural mandates and breed Pharisaism or rebellion. (I went to Christian school K-12 so I know its plusses/minuses best).
-Any school that doesn’t have recess (not just “Physical Education”) should be challenged. Unstructured play time is an important part of kid’s mental and physical development.
-Sometimes we adults cop out of living on mission ourselves by putting our kids in public school as “missionaries.” If we aren’t regularly getting to know lost people, inviting them into our homes for meals, praying for our neighbor’s needs, our kids won’t be missionaries no matter what school we send them to. Or we cop out of talking about spiritual things with our kids because we send them to Christian school. Or we cop out of being involved in a local diverse church body because we as homeschoolers think we are the ONLY ones capable enough for our kids’ education and spiritual upbringing.
-No one should have to wear jean skirts in any of the above scenarios.
In my work as an administrator at a private school/home school co-op for a couple of years was really nice in two regards:
1) We did not have the typical “Christian School” dress code. We enforced modesty–but that could be done w/ t-shirts and shorts. I was the vice principal and I mostly wore jeans and polos… then when the weather got nice I even broke out the khaki shorts…
Funny story–one of our teachers had to drop off some stuff at a Christian school in Kansas City we played sports against. They were much more fundamentalist and required a strict dress code. She wasn’t thinking along these lines and went in carrying the stuff while wearing jeans and a nice shirt. As she was walking down the hall to the offices, she passed a 5th grade boy who hissed at her, “Sinner.” I told her, “You should have hissed back, ‘Pharisee.'” Okay, that might have been wrong to do and not gracious, but it’s funny in my head…
2) K-12, we had a 45 minute long lunch period for everyone… most kids ate in 10-15, so that left 30 or so for recess and running around. It was really cool when all the kids were together and a game of 90 student k-12 red rover broke out.
On the flip side, the moms of the school rose up and banned dodge ball (well before I got there), b/c it was “too aggressive” and the “boys just all look like they want to hurt somebody.” I was like, “Yeah that’s the point!” Poor boys… all they wanted was the opportunity to throw the ball at somebody and I had to get on to them if they did.
However, one time one of our high schoolers was just so itching for it that I took him and one of his friends around back with the dodge ball. I told them, “We’re going to play a game, it’s called Share the Love. This ball is named “love”, the two of you have five minutes to share it anyway you want.” A game of one-on-one dodge ball ensued and they were good for the rest of the day.
So yeah… recess for all ages and no jean skirts! 🙂
You’re on point, Dave.
Your bullet about the dysfunctional parents homeschooling is right on. Most of us are. One point to make here; Homeschooling begins at birth. We basically configure the child’s program the first 7 years of their life and it does not vary much from there. As we make a decision to place them in one of the three mediums of furthering their education we must seek the discernment and wisdom from as many people as we can before walking the plank. Many don’t do that and the kids are worse off than before.
We home school through a system called Texas Virtual Academy – K12. It is part of the Public School system. They send us the books and we use our computers to go online to do most of the work. A real teacher comes online to talk to each student. They monitor the progress of each student and provide report cards every 9 weeks. It is free and really good for the kids. They have a program of exercise. We print out a program to follow and exercise with jump ropes, running, stretching and other things they can choose from for the day. The social activities are weekly with the group meeting at a local Mall or play ground. We attend a large church and the kids have more to do socially than we can keep up with. We are dysfunctional but this program provides the order and systematic education the kids need. It helps us as well.
Great post.
Raised in public school, went to two public universities, a southern baptist seminary, and worked at a private school/home school co-op.
I’ve experienced a good variety in this.
Being in Missouri, we’re not culturally that different than Iowa (at least the north and central parts of MO), and I’ve seen some of that same divide.
Several, not all, of the parents associated with the private school I worked at thought we were morally and academically superior to the public schools…when the truth was we weren’t. Academically we were actually inferior (we just had some bad cases of grade inflation in my opinion), and though we started the day with Bible classes, had weekly chapel, and used biblical values in our structure and discipline, we still had boy friends and girlfriends sleeping together, girls getting pregnant, kids doing drugs, kids cheating, kids being disrespectful, kids drawing certain sexual symbols on opposing teams busses during ball games… and certain parents in denial, “My child wouldn’t do that.” “Right…that’s why we caught him doing it.”
I will grant that proportionally it was different, but the simple fact is just like public school we had some kids who loved Jesus and were true to their faith, and we had other kids who were lost sinners and acted like it (some even manipulating parents and teachers into thinking they were “good kids”).
The idea was even propagated by many there that the kids needed to go to Christian universities and colleges after they graduated.
In my own life–i did some of my most intense spiritual growth and most engaged witnessing while living on campus at a secular university.
From all my experience my opinion has become: when I have kids, whatever area I live in, I’m going to do my homework and make the best educational choice. I’ll take the lead at teaching morals, the Bible, and prayer at home. As for general education–if I’m in an area w/ good public school options, I’ll go that route… if the Christian schools look as if they will provide better avenues, then I’ll go that route…
“Several, not all, of the parents associated with the private school I worked at thought we were morally and academically superior to the public schools…when the truth was we weren’t.”
I’ve seen that. In a previous church, we actually had children (and not some of our better behaved kids) going around telling other children that they were superior because they were homeschooled! It is that attitude (whatever direction it comes from) that causes problems.
Another option (albeit not possible at the moment) is to Christianize all public schools, thus reaping the benefits and minimizing the downsides of both public and Christian school systems.
CHASE,
what religion are you ?
I am a Christian. What are you?
What is MY religion ?
This one . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXz7CiIovJ8
I, too, believe in ‘orthodox’ Christianity and in the ancient creeds of my faith.
But would you want my faith taught in pubiic schools ?
The people of my faith would not advocate your vision for public schooling in America . . . I don’t think that your vision is respectful of the right of all American parents to educate their children according to their own faith.
I believe it is the right and the duty of a PARENT to determine the religious education of a child, and I think, Chase, that most Americans still agree with that principle. At least, I hope so.
I think you want the best for this country, but I don’t think it can be had by forcing our own religion on people’s children politically . . . it’s not our way in America.
Our country is free from that. People have died for that freedom to pray as we see fit in our country, we must remember that, and honor both the freedom and their sacrifice.
I seriously doubt that it is worth the time to argue with someone who puts the word orthodox in scare quotes. God bless!
How exactly do you advocate that we “Christianize” our public schools?
I have not thought through the subject as thoroughly as others, but I will give a few ideas off the top of my head: forbid the teaching of anything contrary to orthodox Christianity as true; require mandatory instruction in the Bible and orthodox theology; teach church history, apologetic methodology, and practical application of religion; offer courses to help prepare those interested in ministry; offer and urge participation in biblical Greek and Hebrew classes; regulate behavior by biblical commands; deliver sermons to the assembled students; etc.
I certainly don’t interpret freedom of religion the same way that many on the left do (complete elimination of Christianity from the public square), but in a nation that honors freedom of religion, it doesn’t seem likely, or even advisable, to have the public schools enforce a Christian viewpoint.
I’d like them not to be hostile to Christianity, but to actively promote it – I guess I can’t go there.
Ideally, such a situation would be voluntarily enacted by the people.
But it wouldn’t be ‘America’ any more, if the public schools served instruction in only one denomination, would it ?
Christiane,
The root of the issue is whether such a course of action is biblically correct (which I’d rather not argue right now; I just wanted to throw the other option out there). If my proposal is biblically correct, then any secular consideration of national identity is irrelevant.
Hi CHASE,
I might understand you better is I knew what you meant by ‘biblically correct’ and ‘orthodox Christianity’. But I do not.
What part of ‘orthodox Christianity’ has led you into thinking along these lines ? Thanks if you have time to respond.
Biblically correct means, “In agreement with the teachings of the Bible.”
[o]rthodox Christianity means, “the traditional Christian faith as established in the Church’s early ecumenical creeds.”
Honestly, I shouldn’t have to define these things for you.
The consequences of Christ’s lordship over the all nations and all aspects of life.
“The consequences of Christ’s lordship over the all nations and all aspects of life.”
yes, I see from this a bit more into your thinking, Chase.
But then, you have many, many Christian people who have read and pondered the words of Our Lord in the Gospel of St. John 18:36 . . .
“”My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom.
If it were, my followers would fight
to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.”
Perhaps you can understand that many Americans may read the same Bible and come up with other perspectives?
And most Americans do not support a theocratic government.
Politically, how would you want to see your religious goals for American public schools accomplished ?
What’s that? I smell … Christian Reconstructionism. Google it.
Wait, KEVIN, give Chase a chance to explain his views . . .
or at least the REASONS he sees things the way he does
Kevin,
I am not a theonomist.
Chase –
So describe where you bail on CR. Help me out, because what you have described is well within the ballpark.
Kevin
Kevin,
I believe that, while it is the duty of the state to uphold the moral law, Mosaic civil law is not currently binding.
Hi Chase –
Hmm, still smells like Christian Reconstructionism. Look, whether biblical commands or Old Testament law, what you describe is Christian Reconstructionism for schools. Here’s where the problem is. What you describe is impossible without the staples of Christian Reconstructionism: (1) Postmillennialism, (2) Reformed Social Theory, (3) Biblical Law, and (4) Christian Dominionism.
Quibbles on number 3 (maybe 4) determine whether one is a theonomist. But I don’t think Christian Reconstructionism is so narrow to exclude quibbles. Could just be me, and I can’t spend an hour on SBC Voices to talk more. Bottom line is: I think what you describe is impossible without (at least) 2 or 3 of the above staples of Christian Reconstructionism. To be honest, I also believe it’s unbiblical. Gotta go.
Good talk,
Kevin
Kevin,
I consider CR to be a subset of theonomy, so I disagree with the lack of importance you place on the theonomic view of the law within CR thought; but if you do not have time to continue, that is fine. God bless!
Hi Chase –
Last comment – really! Your description above requires certain possibilities, I think. That’s where I brought in Christian Reconstructionism. I don’t care to label you. You don’t have to adhere to CR (or whatever similar categories) in toto to end up with your (impossible) scenario.
I suppose the required point, in my mind, is postmillennialism. Do you at least hold to that!? To be honest, as I said above, I don’t see how such reform in schools is possible without what I outlined above – optimistic postmillennialism as key.
Thanks for the talk,
Kevin
Kevin,
I lean towards postmillenialism, but I am not dogmatic about it. I do believe that functioning Christian societies are possible outside of postmillenialism, though. They existed in the past, and likely will in the future, though perhaps not in the West.
“Is the conflict that I have seen in churches in this region a problem in ministries to children and youth in other areas? Do you observe that homeschool/public school dichotomy that I have seen? Maybe this is only a problem around here? I wonder.”
No, I think it’s everywhere. We made the decision to homeschool this year, simply based on what we felt was best for our family at this point. There aren’t many homeschooling families in our community, so we were a little nervous about it. So far most folks have been pretty supportive, thankfully. I found it interesting, though, that it was difficult to have an honest conversation with other homeschooling parents about the pros and cons of homeschooling. I think that when you get so used to having to defend your decisions all the time it’s easy to click into a defensive posture that makes honest evalution difficult.
But yes, the public school/homeschool debate is everywhere. And both sides can get pretty vocal in defending their choices. My feeling is that when folks get judgmental or argumentative about it, it stems from insecurity. We want so badly do do what’s best for our kids, and we often second-guess our parenting decisions. Other people making the same choices give us a feeling of validation, and it’s easy to start arguing “everybody should” as you seek that validation.
Thanks for the point about needing to welcome even the “poorly behaved child” into the church. Most of our kids and youth that come to our Wed. night program are unchurched, and most of those are from the low-income, unstable family life that is so typical of our community. Brokenness comes with baggage. Most of our folks recognize the gift God has given us in this minstry opportunity, but every once in a while the “our kids” vs. “those kids” spectre raises its head. And yet it’s often ‘those kids’ who are more engaged in the lesson than ‘our kids.’ Brokenness comes with baggage, but sometimes it also comes with hunger.
I’ve seen that difficulty divide churches. In a previous church, we began a very good ministry to the “bad part” of town, and people began to come to our church. But some of the parents got antsy that their children were in the nursery and children’s area with children whose behavior (and hygiene) was not up to our normal standards.
Leigh:
I am glad that you are homeschooling your kids, that it is working well and that you have that option.
It is very important for homeschoolers to feel supported, especially in places where it is not the usual option.
I also appreciate the sensitivity you have toward other people.
God bless.
Dave:
Great post.
I wholeheartedly support any parent with respect to the educational options they choose.
I believe it is very important for the church to be open and welcoming to all types of people, in all situations in life.
Allowing a few unthinking people in a church to make comments about the educational choices of other families is hostile to the very mission of the church. It needs to be addressed when it occurs.
In my own experience, the only parents that I have seen being critical of the educational choices of other families are the homeschoolers. The parents say things. The kids say things. It has created hurt feelings.
While I can see many possible educational values in homeschooling, there is something wrong with a culture that encourages its devotees to be critical of other people.
We have lots of private school kids (Christian and secular) in our church, but their parents and students do not make comments about the educational choices of others.
I don’t know why there is such a lack of manners among some of the homeschooling population.
Maybe they would be helped if they put some manners and ethics courses in some of the homeschool curriculum.
If they don’t, it is up to churches to address this – privately, if it is occurring.
Louis,
Just a thought. I too have seen some pretty nasty sides of homeschooling groups. many are to criticial, hostile, and simply rude to any who do not fit into their mold. However, I would say that they are the vocal minority rather than the vast majority. I was also homeschooled and lived in a very healthy environment. I was strongly encouraged to have close friends form other schooling methods, we were taught to treat others aorund us with the same respect no matter their differences with us, we were taugh that we weren’t special, just different.
I think that is the biggest thing. To often parents teach their home schooled children how their family is special because of their choice. They think they are more spiritual. We mainly home schooled because our public school system in the area did a bad job at educating students. I’m sorry to hear your experience with those families has been so negative. If it’s worth anything, we aren’t very fond of those types of families and make a point to tell them to get their act together.
Dave,
This really is a good post and I do so greatly want to interact with it, but I can’t at the moment. This is the perfect post to comment about the rearing of sons, “The Four Strongs Of Manhood,” and the philosophical idea that “Fathers are not to be in the boy business, but in the man business.”…..But, I can’t…………………………….
for in these latter years, I am not rearing sons anymore, but daughters. And daughters have wrecked every rule I have on the rearing of children.
Bringing up little girls is just not as simple as taking a boy and making a man out of him.
Female children are complicated.
There is so much more to talk about here but I just do not have the time right now….Today is my birthday and I have to take my two little girls into the city for them to buy my lunch (with my money) and get me a birthday gift (with my money) and then take them shopping (with my money) in thanks for their celebrating my birthday (with my money). Yeah, bringing up girls is just not the same as making men out of boys…………………………………..
But, I think it might be much more fun. 🙂
You are a good Papa . . .
Happy Birthday, C.B.
and God Bless You and those little girls.
Thank you L’s,
It is true that rearing females is far more complicated than rearing males.
I’ll give you an example. If your are a Black Bear hunter, you can tie a male child out in the woods as bate and most of the time you will get a good kill shot on a bear when he comes up to eat your kid.
But just try that with a female child. All that perfume and scrunch stuff they put in their hair smells so strong that a bear won’t come within ten mile of them.
L’s,
I just noticed I misspelled the word “bait.” I can tell I have gotten older on this birthday than any other one I have ever had in my life.
I think parents hurt their child’s education efforts when they do not realize that it is their character, their walk and thier interest that teaches the child rather than what they are trying to make the child to be or even trying to protect them. It is the same with the Shepherds of the church. If they are trying to get people to do what they are not doing themselves it becomes a catastrophy. Scripture says, “nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;” 1 Peter 5:3. More is caught, than taught. This verse is an identifyer for pastors, but it is the character we must all strive for in raising and educating our children. If we require of our children anything we have not tested and proven and made part of our lives we are sowing seeds of rebellion within them and not even know it, same for the church. Before long, we will be reaping what we sow. I would suggest that we be a little like David. See what we are good at even if it isn’t conventional and do that the very best we can as God completes the job. If teaching isn’t our cup of tea, if we are not consistant and/or if we are not continuing to learn ourselves then go a different direction. Little is much when God is in it.
Dave: Since I don’t have any children of my own, and thus any substantive comments I have would be purely anecdotal, I’ll merely say that I thoroughly enjoyed this post. This was both well-balanced in substance and genuinely loving in tone. Keep up the good work.
Like most pastors, I’ve pastored people in all three educational categories enumerated here. My girls are public school and I serve on the local board of education. I think that parental involvement is key in whatever educational choice we make for our children.
On personal level, I’ve been very impressed with the homeschool kids I’ve pastored. They seem for the most part to do very well educationally, spiritually and they tend to act more mature. Their one deficit that I’ve found lies in the area of soical skills. I’ve been impressed also with some of the Christian school kids I’ve pastored as well.
Having said all that though I never want to be isolated from our local public schools. I have no desire to be a Baptist Amish and practice isolationism. I’m not saying that all homeschoolers or Christian schoolers do this. But we are to be salt and light in this lost world and I am really concerned when people act as though the only correct choice to make is something other than public schools.
Dave, you’re such a sensible guy. I don’t understand how you could be a Yankee fan.
We homeschooled (back when it was a genuinely fringe concept), did public schools, private non-christian schools, and christian schools. Public was the best. The Christian school was the worst, by far.
Some kids thrive in legalistic Christian schools and some crash and burn. I’d avoid one of these.,.far too poisonous an atmosphere.
Somehow most all of us survived public schools when evolution was unquestioned. How could it possibly have happened?
The zealots for any of the choices should be ignored. You are on target with this.
How did I become a Yankee fan? Good upbringing!
I’ve avoided this topic all day, but the teacher in me is well… never mind.
Parents are free to choose whatever they think is best for their children. Parents, like children come in all sizes and persuasions. As a teacher I think I’ve seen it all. I’ve had parents ask me to give their child more homework, so their child won’t bother them while they are cooking dinner. The list of demands and special excuses could fill volumes.
Despite the day to day issues inherent with educating children, my primary concern is that parents have a real choice. Let’s face it, public schools come with far less demands for money, and for many people, especially now, public school is the ONLY option. Few options mean sometimes having to compromise what we, as Christians, believe.
Many (thank goodness not all) states are now imposing a homosexual curriculum in grades K – 12. To add tyranny to the sin, some states will not allow parents to opt-out of this curriculum. Maybe it’s time to ask if the state now owns your child and will decide for you their morals and sense of right and wrong.
Homeschoolers are a target of many state legislatures. Some states allow home schooling with few obstacles. Others go so far as to demand teaching certificates for parents.
I’m in favor of parents making the best choices for their children. However, talking about choice and really having a choice may be two entirely different things.
Parents, be vigilant and do not assume that the public school has the interests of your children as their primary concern. Check your state’s performance objectives, the textbooks they use and how well they meet the standards in place. Get to know the people who sit on the local school board and your state school board.
Vouchers, vouchers, vouchers.
Chief:
Despite my comments about the obnoxious behavior of some in the homeschool community, the points you raise are really important.
Supporting school options, including homeschool and vouchers, is a big deal.
I really don’t see that slowing down. I see it growing as we go forward.
“Many (thank goodness not all) states are now imposing a homosexual curriculum in grades K – 12. To add tyranny to the sin, some states will not allow parents to opt-out of this curriculum. Maybe it’s time to ask if the state now owns your child and will decide for you their morals and sense of right and wrong.”
This right here is why I won’t send my kids to public school. Because, it is essentially socialism. The idea that the state owns you. And they won’t stop. Sure you’ll have the occasional Christian principle that will defend his school’s freedom of choice when it comes to teaching moral imperative, etc. But, for the most part, the growing bureaucracy of the public school system will continue to encroach on the rights of parents and continue to ignore “minor” individual problems (like the sin of gossip) that go on during school hours.
*principal, not principle. oops.
We may delegate part of my child’s education to another, by the primary accountability for the rearing and education of our children is ours.
If we desire our children to see the world through the lens of a biblical worldview we must provide the lens.
The BAMA game is going so bad I can’t read or write.
That should be: “We may delegate part of our children’s education to another, but the primary accountability for the rearing and education of our children belongs to us.”
CB, you’re winning, so it can’t be that bad.
Doug,
The Bulldogs are 5-5. Their program is struggling. They held us to 7 in the first half. We looked pretty bad.
I’m starting to wonder if my Hogs skipped breakfast the day they played the Tide. Can’t believe y’all put 38 up on us given what has happened the past two weeks.
Be interesting to see how those tie-breakers work out if we beat LSU and Miss. State.
Doug,
When LSU plays you Hogs, I’ll be “ruttin'” for ya. 🙂
Now, if we can just OK State to lose (and the Hogs beat LSU, of course), that will really confuse things.
I’m thinking, though, that Miles, Petrino, or Saban would have fun demolishing Houston 🙂
And you guys only have Auburn left. Unless you’re really wanting to count Georgia Southern, that is.
Doug,
Houston is in the state of Texas. Texans think they have some kind of “giftedness” about football. All knowledgeable football people in the world know that is a myth.
One school in Texas has found the courage to admit the truth and seek entry into football greatness. A&M is now a legitimate football team. (as soon as they get a real field and stop playing in a cow pasture. I think some folks from Auburn are going there to show them how to engineer a field and plant grass conducive to football rather than raising cattle.)
Houston is hopeless against an SEC team. Football fans all over the country just need to realize that an SEC team will play for and win the National Championship forevermore.
Hey Dave Miller,
I realize you do not care for Nebraska football but this was a class act by Nebraska coach Ron Brown.
http://www.huskermax.com/vbbs/showthread.php?25993-Ron-Brown-s-Pregame-Prayer
I believe God was glorified!
Robert-
Completely agree. That was an awesome display of grace and leadership by Coach Brown. Very cool that to see the teams come together like that.
Food for thought about public education.
In October 1961 the Supreme Court removed public prayer from public schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale.
The argument was that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion, officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited.
I guess we can argue the merits of that decision for a long time. Nonetheless, it is a fact that before 1961 the Bible was used extensively in curriculum design and development in public schools and public prayer by faculty and administration was a common (almost daily) event. Since 1961, public school aptitude test scores have dropped considerably and consistently. Is this drop a direct result of the Supreme Court’s action in October 1961? I supposed that can be debated and various factors can be cited for the drop, but the fact still remains that public school education has suffered since 1961.
cb,
You raise an important issue. I had been in teaching for a good many years, before I woke up to the fact that standardized tests only tell us what we want them to.
I’m not going to run down standardized tests as evil incarnate. They have some useful purposes, while at the same time, they can do harm. There really is no more efficient and completely objective way to get information on how students are performing academically. Many educators prefer portfolio assessment, but that is riddled with all manner of subjective thought which leads down the road of bias, favoritism, and inaccuracy.
Standarized tests are big business. Years ago, almost every elementary age student took the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills). It was considered one of the best testing instruments and almost every state in the union used it. It has now been largely replaced with two other primary tests, the Stanford 9, and individual state tests. These tests are all, in theory, supposed to measure what students have learned against what the state thinks a student should learn. In general, there is nothing inherently wrong with this kind of testing. It simply provides information to schools, students, parents and communities regarding how well students have learned. But that is ALL they do.
If I understand my audience here at Voices, most of you know the difference between criterion referenced and norm referenced tests. What you may not know is that the results of these tests are treated the same way as a norm referenced test. Any statistician can tell you how flawed this action is. Comparing apples to oranges is never a good idea and any information it produces is still rotten fruit.
We love to sound compassionate with titles such as ‘No Child Left Behind’. The truth is the bell shaped curve demands that some children are left behind. We say we want all children to succeed, but we need some students to fail miserably.
Education is left to the discretion of individual states. That’s a good thing. There is no federal law that demands all students in every state be taught the same thing. In fact, states are free to devise their own standardized tests and many do. In AZ, students take the AIMS (Arizona Instrument to Measure Standards). Other states avail themselves of tests such as the ITBS and Stanford 9. However, there is no ‘national’ test that compares students with each other, or the performance of students based on years past. The closest we come to that is a voluntary test we know as the SAT or ACT.
The point is, there is no way for educators to know if our kids are performing better or much worse than they did in 1961. The expectations are different from state-to-state. I encourage everyone to look up the standards for their own state and then compare those standards to another state.
It seems that at least once a week, I read some article from an educational think tank (read politicians), that says our students don’t perform as well as those in Europe, China, Japan, etc. That’s my first clue, that these people don’t know what they are talking about. It achieves the purpose of frightening people, encouraging class warfare and an ‘us against them’ mentality, but I have never seen the proof. If anyone can produce the testing instument these dooms-day prophets base their information on, I’d sure love to see it. I’m confident however, that it doesn’t exist.
I don’t know if the elimination of school prayer has made any difference. I could probably make a case for either. That’s what educators do. We muddy the water with inaccurate comparisons, charts, graphs and dire predictions. There was a time when I was a huge proponent of school prayer. But I have changed my mind. I don’t want my children praying to Allah courtesy of the Imam.
There is one thing I’m sure of. Any civilization that turns their back on God deserves what they get. If our kids aren’t performing as well as they used to we only need to look at our broken families, the glorification of violence, the acceptance of sin as ‘normal’, and our own so-called self-reliance, that has no place for God. There is only one answser: “Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and Perfecter of the faith”.
Chief Katie,
I agree with much of your comment. I do not agree here:
“The point is, there is no way for educators to know if our kids are performing better or much worse than they did in 1961.”
It is true that since 1961, public school aptitude test scores have dropped considerably and consistently.
Is this drop a direct result of the Supreme Court’s action in October 1961? I don’t really know that. I do know that we are in trouble in the public school system today in ways that we were not prior to 1961. Frankly, we are in trouble in the public school system in ways we were not prior to 1973.
The argument can be made that every time we, as a nation, a people, a family, a church or as an individual parent, embrace an ethical and moral breach our children suffer the consequences.
BTW Chief Katie,
I am no proponent of “No Child Left Behind.” That concept was flawed from the beginning and grew worse with each passing year. “Teaching to the test” is not teaching and certainly is not conducive to learning in children.
Wonderful post Dave.
The decision on education really has everything to do with the family. I was homeschooled and it worked well for me because my mother was actually a really talented and organized teacher and our schooling system in the area was rather infamous for giving poor education. However, I also knew many families who were homeschooled who had no business doing it. They were disorganized, lazy, and sometimes far to hypocritical of others.
I am proud that I was raised in a home where I received a solid education, but was also encouraged to have good friends from other backgrounds. It was a good mixture, and I think I was better for it in my circumstance just like other friends of mine were better with being in public school. Thanks for the post Dave. You hit on some big issues.
cb,
Would you be willing to show me the evidence that test scores have dropped since 1961? Mind you, I’m not challenging the fact that you believe it is true, based on your own observations and possibly other data. My point is, unless you can demonstrate this factually, it slowly becomes part of our national psyche whether it is true or not. I’ve been hearing about how poorly educated our children are for decades and I was in school in 1961.
Standardized tests change over time. The ITBS has at least four revisions that I know of. Stanford 9 has three.
I accept completely that teaching to the test is a really bad result of standardized testing. However, it’s only a bad result, if the standards, for which the tests are based, are themselves lacking. If we say we want all kids to understand and use algebraic expressions, then teaching algebraic expressions, is what teachers will teach and it follows that kids will learn it and the tests will reflect that learning.
We can read every possible criticism of student achievement, but if we can’t demonstrate objectively that it is true, then it’s simply one person’s opinion.
Again, I will joyfully and carefully read anything that can be produced that shows a downward trend in student achievement. I’ve been at this education game a long, long time.
For clarity, the NCLB is just another name attached to Title 1 and Title 10 federal funding and it has been around since the 60’s. Politicians give this funding a lofty title, but it hasn’t essentially changed. Most parents haven’t read it and if they did, they’d be quite surprised to learn that it removes some of their basic rights as citizens.
Please let me offer that I am not attempting to argue with you. I always enjoy your postings here and respect your opinions. But I do want people to be critical about things we normally accept as truth. If you ask 10 people on the street if they think students are not performing the way they once were, I’d guess 9 would agree. But not one of them could point to any objective evidence that demonstrates that it is true. It’s much like asking people who are not Christians what they think Christians believe.
God Bless cb…………..
Chief Katie,
I can share data with you. But that would take a long time and you know it. You are a teacher. You have been taught, just as I have, the methods of research. The research is out there. I am doing nothing more than posting material from my own research. (Most of which I had to do to get my degrees) Most of it is from memory, both ancient and recent.
I will say this as to an illustration of the situation in education. (BTW, I am not actually casting stones at public education alone. I do not believe that the primary problem of poorly educated children is with public education. I have rocks to throw at “Christian” schools and homeschool education as well. Stay tuned.)
Now back to the illustration. Chief Katie, How many twelve year old boys do you know who cannot read? I know many. I have had to teach more than one seventh grader how to read. How many check out lines have you been in wherein the twenty-something year old cashier could not make change? How many tenth graders do you know who do not know who Thomas Jefferson or Adolph Hitler were? I know many.
I know standardized tests have changed. One reason is because students could not pass the ones from past usage. Another reason is because there is big money in the development and production of standardized tests in this country.
BTW, I was also in school in 1961…….. occasionally. 🙂
Chief Katie,
I will give you a good one volume source. You are a teacher, so it will not be all that boring to you. It will probably burden your heart as it did mine. Most things I read do not burden my heart, because I have seen a lot of “stuff” in my time, but this book bothered me greatly. It is entitled On You Own Without A Net: The Transition to Adulthood for Vulnerable Populations, edited by Flanagan, Foster, Osgood, and Ruth.
Ruth teaches at the University of Chicago. Osgood teaches at Penn State. Foster teaches at UNC. Flanagan teaches at Penn State. I stated where the editors teach so you would not think they are a bunch of seminary professors who would have an inherent bias against public education.
CB and Cheif Katie,
Here is one for you. Our state has it’s own test. But I was shocked to find out that all students taking the test are entitled to “accomodations” if they need them. And MANY DO. This means, they can have a “reader” read the questions to them because they are not good readers. (We are talking 11th grade). Some need readers AND “scribes” to not only read it to them but write it down for them as well. My question is: If an 11th grader cannot read the test, why is s/he taking it?
Lydia,
It’s about the money.
“Accommodations” for testing purposes are written into IEP’s for students with learning difficulties who have been formally diagnosed and put on a plan tailored to their special needs.
It sounds like the ‘accommodation’ you are referring to might be one that is for a test seeking knowledge of curriculum content rather than testing reading or writing skills.
Hard to know for me since you don’t mention the state or give details about the situation specifically concerning the children being ‘accommodated’,
but that is what it sounds like to me.
Lydia, the ‘laws’ have demanded that all children be tested, even the ones that are ‘strapped in and drooling’.
I hate those laws because they are not about ‘education’, they are about ‘something else’.
There are legitament reasons for testing and some very good standardized tests, but that is not what is going on in many cases. You are describing possibly one of the mis-uses of testing. And yes, it is shocking when people hear about it.
Chief Katie,
Here is another good source. Dr. Daniel J. Singal has done some extensive research relating to the drop in standardized test scores in the last quarter century. Check out his material. Again, it is not exciting reading, but it does connect the dots quite well.
BTW, He is not a Baptist preacher or seminary professor. He has been around a while, graduated from Harvard, teaches at some university in NY state. I think he teaches in the Psych. Division, not really sure though.
Anyway, read his work. You might find it interesting.
Our daughters went to public school, more or less. The younger one went to a Performing Arts Magnet School in Houston (and lived in Houston with college students) for her junior and senior years in HS. This was sort of like a private school. It worked out well for them but there is nothing quite like moving your daughter (age 16) into an apartment in Houston.
Their Mother was very active in their schools as a volunteer. This was clearly a help to both the schools and to the girls.
My thoughts are that you can direct your children up to about age 9-10. Then you can talk about what you feel about things (around them) until they are 12 or so. After that you just have to hope that you have done enough.
Here is one of the finest Christian Schools in the country…..okay I do have a bias.
I know it is long but the whole video will give you clear vision of the school.
http://media.brentwoodacademy.com/?p=1348