William Thornton is the SBC Plodder.
Dwight McKissick was included in the article as saying, “The church lasks the moral authority to address the world about race before we set our own house in order.”
The article further notes that McKissick pointed that the denomination continues to employ all white as top executives and seminary presidents.
“It is obvious the rhetoric and reality is not matching, he said,”
For a lesson in rhetoric vs. reality, the link at the end of this sentence is the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission’s staff directory page. The Executive Staff is all white. There is one, out of 25, African American on the page. She is a consultant.
Danny Akin comments on the SBC and racial reconciliation with the words that, “My grief is we’re late to this party…We should have been leading the way. Not much of a party at ERLC HQ, it seems.
I like Russell Moore and think he is hitting better notes that his predecessor. Isaid so early on after he was given the position of CEO of the ERLC.
Moore had the opportunity to build his team from the ground up at the ERLC. He selected, quite quickly, a team that included no African Americans. His choices, seems to me from the SBC hinterlands, were sound but express the familiar principle that there are only so many high level jobs in the SBC and her entities and we like to hire people we know well and are comfortable with. This is an explanation (one that I offer for Moore, not one that he has offered to my knowledge), not an excuse.
Perhaps other issues were on his mind in 2013.
Brethren, blame the messenger if you like on this but these are optics that everyone sees. We could have been addressing this business of integration in both churches and our entities before last year’s flame up of racial issues. Moore is one of the SBC’s point men on racial issues. He should be expecting his own employment structure to be scrutinized and I’m sure he has a response prepared.
The headline I would be surprised to see is this one (maybe he has called for this, I haven’t see it):
ERLC’s Moore calls for greater diversity in top SBC positions
It’s pretty safe to sit in D.C. look at the camera and call for action by SBC churches.
William, This is why I brought the motion I did at the SBC last year (which is now being worked on at the EC) and is why I wrote my book. I really do believe that Russell Moore cares about this issue sincerely. But, the problem in the SBC is that we choose and promote our friends and those we know personally. It is understandable. That is how the world works. But, when you are at Southern Seminary for years, the people you know and trust are also there and this is what happens. I like Russ Moore A LOT.… Read more »
Well said, Alan.
I don’t know that any “mechanism” is needed other than for those who hire to pay attention to what they are doing and what they are saying. If 20% of SBC churches are ethnic minority then in an entity whose purpose in part is to call the SBC to ethical behavior relative to racial issues, then 81 of 82 trustees being white (I accept Alan’s stats, haven’t checked myself) is an eyebrow raiser in and of itself. I’m guessing that if ERLC is asked about this they will offer a stat that features the percentage of trustees who are African… Read more »
The EC’s trustees are 81 of 82 white, not ERLC. I was using them for comparison.
Amen Alan.
I would say that the first and foremost mechanism needs to be the willingness to intentionally develop close, personal relationships across racial lines long before it’s time to select teams. That way people have a base of godly, Christian friends they can call on to lead that is constitutionally diverse.
Right. This issue will be remedied when personal relationships develop, as I think we all agree that the real issue is not intentional discrimination but are more a result a buddy system or a boys club mentality.
Setting up rules by which minorities MUST be chosen over non minorities for no other reasons than a goal of “diversity” based on skin tone will be, IMO a huge step backwards. Intentional discrimination is not the way to solve this.
Jim, Tarheel: Hasn’t the “we’ve got to form relationships” also the problem? That isn’t happening and frankly it takes a long time to form any meaningful relationship. The clock is already ticking and has been for too many years. Why do we always want to slow down a process when it really needs to happen yesterday?
If this gets slowed down any more than it has been it will be at a stop. It’s now 2015.
The 81 of 82 EC trustee figure (I also am assuming to be correct without checking) probably has another factor that hasn’t been mentioned. Along with the ‘appoint my friends’ tendency, there’s also a lot of scrutiny on CP giving. I’m really grateful for increasing ethnic diversity among SBC congregations. Could it be that many of the newly affiliated black and hispanic churches (whether because they’re church plants or established churches who recently moved into cooperation) are not high percentage CP givers, according to the old formulas and preferences? I’ve got no stats to back that up, but it makes… Read more »
Alan
I agree completely. We do not need to way for the last vestige of friction, that may never come. The Boards just need to DO IT
This is not just an ERLC issue. It is the continuing issue in all of the SBC. We elected Fred Luter. Well done! But until leadership and boards reflect the call to diversity, we have a LONG way to go. I’m not sure I desire or would support any kind of quota – haven’t thought through it enough to say at this point. But this is where the battle is now. We broke down a barrier when we elected Fred Luter. But until trustee boards and entity staffs reflect this diversity, we cannot act as if we have arrived. And… Read more »
We have a quota on the lay/clergy distinction in our trustee boards proving that we are not averse to quotas on things we care about. Considering it is 2015 and we refuse to address this issue on our own, perhaps we should institute quotas for the next 15-20 years or so to rectify this? We should be further along. The EC will bring a report in February in response to my motion that calls for this to be looked into and reported. Let’s see what they say. If it has no concrete recommendations, then the next step is a bylaw… Read more »
My mom was appointed to the FMB as a trustee over our pastor Rob Zinn because of that “lay”/”clergy” system in the 80s. It can work well. (I’d add my mom is arguably more qualified than Rob due to a SWBTS degree plus FMB experience, but I’m not at all suggesting that means he was unqualified.)
Oh, and I am no fan of quotas either. And I am also very grateful for Dr. Page, so I agree with all of that. I am just LESS a fan of the current situation and am looking at lessers-of-evil at this point. I do not think that we are being actively racist. The problem now is not racism, per se. It is personal preference and doing what is most beneficial to one’s self – which plays out racially. I wrote a book outlining the history of this in American Evangelicalism since the 1600s. Continuing to focus on Race alone… Read more »
Alan, if you have a few minutes to listen to the Piper clip I posted below, I’d like to know if you think this gets to the heart of the matter. Thanks for your thoughts.
I hope we can see racial integration in the SBC power towers. A few nagging questions keeps popping up in my head… 1 – Do we bring in minorities just because they are minorities? 2 – If I were a minority, would I want a job offered to me just because I am a minority? 3 – Even as a white male, would I take a job because I fit some racial / gender profile? The answers I keep giving myself are: 1 – This is a tough one that I cannot figure out. If I am not being hired… Read more »
When I read this article it made me think about this short interview that Collin Hansen did with John Piper on the issue of being “color blind”. I think if our SBC leadership would all implement what Piper (and Alan and William) is describing we’d be on the road to true reconciliation. I pray that’s where we’re headed now, though the pace may seem slow.
http://resources.thegospelcoalition.org/library/can-t-afford-to-be-color-blind
It seems to me that the ethnic makeup of the SBC leadership will change when the ethnic makeup of our churches change. And this goes for “white” churches and “black” churches. I’d be willing to bet (I’m not really betting, because I’ve looked) that people calling for greater diversity at the SBC entity level are serving in churches that are pretty racially homogeneous, especially at the leadership level. Speck/Mote.
I agree, Bill.
I would like to personally welcome the SBC to 1971.
Correction. I meant 1871
What percentage of the denominations boards, institutions and agencies would need to be “racially diverse” to properly reflect the constituency percentage of the denomination itself.
If folks are going to go down this optics for the sake of racial fairness route, shouldn’t the percentages reflect the denomination as a whole?
While we all think that “quotas” are inappropriate, they may be necessary. Or maybe any time a person is hired or trustees are appointed, in each case there should be a question asked. “Why was this person not a minority?” And that question should be answered accurately. I can’t say what should be done with the answers, but I do know that study after study have shown that you have to do something to get changes to happen. People are surprisingly consistent.
Do we have a job performance evaluation form–for trustees and employees both, perhaps? These would be different, of course, but there might be a surprising amount of overlap. If one of the headings on the form had to do with diversity, you might be amazed how much this could change things–especially if this is the second item on the evaluation form. You only change what you evaluate and measure.
Did not the early churches of Rome and Asia have their own social peculiarities? Our unforced segregation’s are healthy. The Christ we love is no less the Lord of his Church because we have cultural and stylistic preferences that vary to levels of benign disassociation. We will not become more spiritual and Christ-like because we try to force such disparate harmonies. We need not join the world and its campaign for quotas unless it is the world we care about pleasing. As we see, the world and its politics will not stop at “Racial equality.” As our country becomes more… Read more »
Glenn, I am assuming your opening question was serious and not rhetorical. Yes, the early church had its own peculiarities and the apostles sought to diminish them and to form a unified church that was not separated by race or ethnicity or background. We see several instances of this: 1) Acts 15- the letter to the churches started in heavily Gentile areas instructing them on how to be “sensitive” to the consciences of their Jewish Christian compatriots without becoming Jews themselves and therefore adding to the Gospel. 2) Paul’s rebuke of Peter in Galatians when Peter’s conduct changed upon the… Read more »
Ryan–Thanks for the very encouraging words and scripture. I will continue to use benign disassociation and add benign association because I trust you will allow me further definition. Just as the intentional, unintentional segregation based upon ethnicity is alive and well. And so it shall be for as long as there is time. One is not so good, the other can be quite natural. Most of my black brothers in Christ don’t want to attend my church and it is not because they are not welcome to do so. No, welcome is not the issue and it must never be… Read more »
1. The idea that I should be able to wall off my little segment of Jesus’ church—which He owns, by the way, after paying a pretty high price—in order to make sure that my stylistic preferences are met to my satisfaction is a distinctively American (and distinctively anti-biblical and anti-Christian) conceit. 2. The idea that our racial segregation is benign vaporizes the moment you engage anyone in our culture about same-sex marriage or any other controversial issue. Thinking lost people will take about zero-point-zero seconds to tell you that your church has no credibility to discuss what is right or… Read more »
As one who is pastor of a church that is now running about 50/50, I can flatly say that if we do not have the intent in our actions to be inclusive, it’s probably not going to happen. And it’s not just being welcoming and loving to any who may come, but being inclusive to their cultural ways and incorporating them in to how we go about worshiping and serving as the church. The absolute biggest obstacle apart from hardened hearts, which thankfully we are not dealing with, is leading people to be objective and honest in assessing “their” church… Read more »
Well said, Bart. You have hit on my missional and biblical motivation here. I am happy to spend my life holding open whatever door I can grab hold of to help people from other ethnic backgrounds fully participate and lead in the SBC in order to strengthen our churches and our gospel witness in a 21st century America. It is Biblical, right, and totally necessary. It is past time for this change to really take place.
Thank you.
Case in point. It’s possible to realign one’s interpretation of scripture (context ex post facto) through the filters of political correctness and social engineering.
Proof-texting to support a pre-calculated position in support of quotas adds nothing to the argument IMO
Ain’t buyin that one.
I assumed that the “q” word would be bandied about on this. I didn’t call for it or use the term. I don’t recall anyone other than Rick Patrick calling for quotas ( he prefers ‘parity’).
I just thought it worthy of note that Russell Moore calls for church integration while not exhibiting any significant degree of the same in the organization over which he presides. This is not sinister on his part but rather a hindrance to his racial reconciliation thrust.
I neglected to say that Rick calls for C/non-C parity, not racial parity.
William,
Like Rick substitutes “parity” for quota – It seems Dwight, Alan and others have substituted “mechanism” for quota.
Hi Friends, Been a while. I actually like the term “proportionality.” And while we are on the subject of Moore’s hiring habits, I believe in hiring Southern Baptists for the ERLC of the SBC. (3 out of his first 5 hires were not Southern Baptist at all.) It still amazes me that people fail to see the value in leadership that “looks” like our membership. If one in ten Southern Baptists are African American, then the ERLC should have about three African Americans and at least one entity President should be African American. If one in ten Southern Baptists are… Read more »
Actually, my favorite word for this is “proportionality.” Although sometimes derided as a quota, I do think our leadership should “look” like our membership. Hence, if 10 percent of Southern Baptists are African American, then 2 or 3 of the ERLC’s 25 staff members should be as well. Similarly, if 15% of our members are Calvinists, then one of our six seminaries and one or two of our eleven entities should be led by one. If ten speakers are on a Pastors Conference lineup, maybe two or three should be Calvinist, and there should certainly be an African American in… Read more »
Seems we run all over the world to assist people with the gospel in their heart language. These groups are plainly affinity groups who would not come an worship in western circles. Frankly, having served for many years, I think we are creating attention to an issue that perhaps is really more a matter of affinity on both sides as opposed to any real race issue. Now before you heave stones, it would help you know my own brother has a wife who is black and I performed the wedding. Also, when I served in a predominately black county, I… Read more »
I see a lot of talk about quotas. I just have to observe that Paul didn’t implement quotas. He dealt with this extensively in Corinth and Rome and we have his letters. His solution was not quotas. His solution was admonition. His admonition was founded on the gospel of Jesus Christ and expressed in several ways. His admonishments were authoritative because he was an Apostle. We don’t have that kind of weight in our position, but we have that kind of weight in the words he left us and as people filled with the Holy Spirit. We all like to… Read more »
Jim, Your thoughts are spot on to me. The ERLC and the SBC exist to serve Christ and his church but it is never too difficult for this to reverse it self. I want a church that welcomes , loves and integrates, not only other ethnics, but all the other social “minorities” as well. I would love to see this a convention wide reality. I would love for all churches who name Christ as head to follow Christ teachings and examples concerning prostitution, johns, gays, “white collar” criminals, “financially challenged”, satanists, alcoholics, atheists, Mormons, Muslims and agnostics alike. (shouldn’t we… Read more »
I have been saying for a while that the place to address these issues is to institute aggressive recruitment of ethnic minorities into our seminaries. Brent Hobbs’s point is well-taken, and it’s a shame that it hasn’t received any more comment or interest than it has. We must ask ourselves whether we care about tearing down racial barriers in our churches. Alan and Dave are 100% correct in calling for us to think about this and to act upon our stated convictions. Is racial openness a priority for us in the SBC, or isn’t it? And yet, alongside asking whether… Read more »
Hi Bart, Back in the 60’s our Mormon friends went through the wringers of Civil Rights and Social Justice advocacy. Mormons held similar prejudices as most all Americans at that time. Their 1969 Apostle vote failed to reach unison and it was nine more years before a miracle revelation would instruct them to overturn their previous stance on blacks and Mormonism. Today they are “reaching out” to the black community but, to this date, the Mormon hierarchy and President/Apostle leadership has not prevented individual Mormons from their continued prejudice against blacks. What, in your opinion, can we learn from the… Read more »
Bart, I’m curious, since our giving standards have changed since the implementation of GCR. Doesn’t all missions giving count? Why wouldn’t giving to BMA count? It’s missions giving. By the pre-2011 standard, would Ezell or Platt be qualified as having total “buy in?” There is so much gray area now. How do we determine what total “buy in” is?
Bart handles far more money than I do and is used to large numbers therein…but if I might reply: All giving counts, just not in certain categories. Churches, though, can only include giving to SBC causes (national entities, state convention causes, or association) as Great Commission Giving. Local church spending on mission trips, direct local missions, support of Gideons, or other mission causes that are non-SBC may be reported but not as GCG. One might note here that somewhere around 20% of SBC affiliated churches don’t file the Annual Church Profile, so any giving not received by our entities, where… Read more »
Bart, you ought to rework this into its own post, too many people are going to pass over it in the comments section. I would also like to see some numbers about CP giving among black, Hispanic, and Asian congregations so we can evaluate if that actually could be a factor to consider or if we’re just offering it up as an excuse when the facts don’t really support it. Also, we need to ask if the CP giving percentage is a hindrance to more diversity among the boards, who needs to budge first? Do we need to lower CP%… Read more »
And those minorities you “aggressively recruit” for the sake of “proportionality” will also fund the denominational apparatus “proportionally” in line with the effort and cost of cultural correction?
Bart, great post.
I could not help but notice that you are taking active steps through relationships (#1 -3).
I agree wholeheartedly with #6.
Bart, one more thing…Thank you for not looking the SBC entities to deal with this and actually doing something about it yourself.
I appreciate the lengthy comment and take some of your points, especially the point about aggressively recruiting by seminaries. Articles here often lead to comments that have moved from a rather specific issue to a treatment of the broader application of the same. Here, I’ve made a point about the ERLC whose mission is not the same as NAMB or IMB in regards to evangelism in NA and the world. The ERLC is our point entity and Russell Moore is our point guy on racial issues. He has, properly and candidly, called for integrated churches; however, the ERLC could hardly… Read more »
The primary reason we have segregated churches is because of the white church’s history of slavery and racism. The secondary reason we have segregated churches is because the black church (due to this context of slavery and racism) became not just a house of worship but a cultural beacon, an island of solidarity in a sea of oppression. This is especially so given the black church’s key role in the abolition and civil rights movements. From this outside segregation and internal solidarity arose a unique church culture with its own styles of music, preaching, and ecclesiology. For many black Christians… Read more »
Jeff, you have a point in regards to the identifiable church cultures. What we have found, in a neighborhood 80% black, is that a person who has roots in the church is unlikely to choose us. However, a lost, unchurched black has little in the grounding of the black church culture, just as a lost, unchurched white has little grounding in the white church culture. The fruit we have seen as we have intentionally sought to become inclusive to all is from souls coming to Christ and from children in our densely populated neighborhood where except for a couple of… Read more »
Jeff P, Thanks for your reply. I recognize that our church is far too insulated from our community, both black and white. One of my goals as a pastor is to change that. I agree with you that those individuals without a church background are less likely to know or maintain the cultural identifiers I mentioned. In our very small, rural town, most folks identify with a particular church even if they rarely or never attend. And knowing our church members’ perspectives and abilities, it would be difficult for us to integrate “black-church” elements in our worship with any credibility.… Read more »
Jeff, you wrote, “Maybe if we focused more on inter-church cooperation instead of intra-church recruitment, we would create a kind of credibility that would actually make black people more at home in our own congregations.” I think this is an important place to start. Black Baptists will wonder about predominantly white churches wanting them as members when there isn’t even any inter-church cooperation between their churches. This could come off as paternalistic, even if it is not intended to be. Starting where we are is the beginning of getting where we want to be. I have heard my father speak… Read more »
To all concerned, Should ethnics have total buy-in to a denomination where 37% of the churches say that they are fine with single race churches, 81 out of 82 EC members are Anglo, and all the entity heads are White. Those optics are staggering. Does that denomination really want your buy-in or just want you in for their own benefit? If the SBC really wanted multi-ethnic leadership at all levels, they could make it happen. It’s a question of will. The church at Antioch made it happen(Acts13: 1,2), and so could the SBC. The optics at the EC board, entity… Read more »
Dwight: Do you have any thoughts on my suggestion that we can’t expect a diverse leadership before we have diverse congregations?
One way to demonstrate that you are serious about wanting a diverse congregation is to diversify leadership. The church I attend has a black worship leader. I suspect that this encourages black people to attend there. He is also very good at the job which is likely how he came to have it to start with but he probably improved on the job too.
Bill Mac, If we wait on congregations to integrate before the convention leader ship integrates, we will probably never see the convention integrate. Our churches will only integrate with intentionality. Just as the convention encourages & promotes whatever else that they want to see our churches engage themselves in, the same should hold true for integrated churches. If your point is a grass roots integration movement is better than a top down “let’s get ‘er done” movement….I agree. But, it would certainly help the movement-be it grass roots, or top down-if the convention was integrated at the ebtiry head level,… Read more »
Dwight: I don’t know if I disagree or not. I just think we open ourselves up to charges of hypocrisy if the people championing greater diversity in SBC leadership are in churches where the leadership is a sea of all-white or all-black faces. If we cannot effect change in our own congregations, how can we effect change at the national level. What we are saying, in essence, is that someone else has to fix things.
Bill Mac, You make a valid point. I know of three White Baptist professors who actually joined and were/are actively engaged in Black National Baptist Churches. Their credibility in the Black community is huge. And it is directly attributed to their seeking to understand before being understood, and their willingness to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes. However, those who advocate inter-racial churches need not necessarily be from thoroughly inter-racial churches in order to have credibility, they simply need a track recorded of where they have power and influence, they made the right decisions regarding race; and from this… Read more »
Dwight,
I think you are making excellent points.
mike
Never criticize someone unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. And then it is OK because you’re a mile away and they’ve got no shoes!
Dwight,
I have some questions that I hope no one takes as being judgmental, it really is just curiosity. Are conversations like this taking place in the historically black denominations? Is there a concern for greater integration? Or is there a high percentage that would rather remain segregated?
Jon, Fair and relevant question. Based on my observation and conversations, I would answer, No! Conversations like this are not taking place in Black denominational circles-at least not to my knowledge. There are three reasons why I think this conversation is not taking place. 1. The thinking is that Whites really would have zero interest in genuinely and meaningfully having this dialogue. 2. There is a distrust level, based on history, that in my judgement, that causes the majority of Black denominational leaders and their constiteuency(sp) to not want to have such a dialogue either. (3) The general feeling is… Read more »
Dwight, You said that this conversation is not taking place in historically black denominations – and then you said by way of explanation the following; “three reasons why I think this conversation is not taking place. 1. The thinking is that Whites really would have zero interest in genuinely and meaningfully having this dialogue. 2. There is a distrust level, based on history, that in my judgement, that causes the majority of Black denominational leaders and their constiteuency(sp) to not want to have such a dialogue either. (3) The general feeling is that Whites want to be large and in… Read more »
Tarheel, I answered the question that was asked, which was; is the discussion of integration of churches happening in Black denominations. I then gave-to the best of my knowledge-an honest answer. I proceeded to give 3 reasons why I believe that this discussion is not taking place among Black denominations. I am not blaming White persons for Black denominations not holding this discussions; I am simply reporting the news; not making the news. Biblically speaking I believe that it is a mandate that we be one. I believe that segregated churches-no matter the color-are out of the will of God,… Read more »
Dwight – here is one place I think you miss it – “Should ethnics have total buy-in to a denomination where 37% of the churches say that they are fine with single race churches, 81 out of 82 EC members are Anglo, and all the entity heads are White. Those optics are staggering. Does that denomination really want your buy-in or just want you in for their own benefit?” I want faithful BFM2000 affirming southern baptists at head of entities and as trusteees. I am an SBCer and “buy into” the SBC b/c of our shared values not a particular… Read more »
Tarheel, would you “buy in” to an organization where you basically had no voice or representation even though you shared values with that entity?
I guess we need to define basis for “buy in” as it relates to Southern Baptist denominational organization.
I mean by “buy in” that I embrace the values, goals, and theological underpinnings of the SBC – therefore my voice and representation is found when my leaders embrace, and proclaim if you will, the values, goals and theological underpinnings ( the BFM2000) I share.
Skin color has nothing to do with it.
Tarheel, but right now we are making it about skin color. The ERLC is doing that right now with their call for integrated churches from a platform of non integrated leadership. Until we practice what we are preaching, why would any black who agrees with our mission believe us? We say to them we want you and need you, yet how do we actually show that when their are hardly any given any leadership responsibility in the convention?
I agree we should practice what we preach – however preaching and teaching on this (as with other matters) happens in the local church not the corner office suite at the ERLC headquarters. I happen to believe – that true and meaningful and appropriate gains in this area must happen in local churches – then and only then will we see it happening in our entities – in fact, I believe gains have been happening in many local churches. The cold hard truth is that instructions from an SBC entity head that does not have his origination in local churches,… Read more »
Tarheel, it must occur in both areas. Yes we need local churches integrating. But we send a message that is loud and clear if we also don’t integrate our entities.
Jeff P. ,
My point is – The extent it happens at the entities does not necessarily mean it will flow down to local churches. In fact it probably won’t.
Conversly, if it happens in churches it will happen in the entities.
Great question, Jeff P,
I wish Tarheel would answer it.
Answer what?
Tarheel, no disagreement that an appointment by an entity or even adding minorities to trustees or staff of entities will not flow downhill to the churches. It would however communicate to society at large and especially black Baptists who are skeptical we are serious about it. Until we back up words with action, our words ring hollow
What value is “communicating to society” if it has no effect on our churches? The churches are the real SBC. I know some might take this the wrong way, but in some sense the leadership is a facade. So we have a diverse leadership and continue to have all white and all black churches? It seems to me that what we are communicating would then be a tad deceptive. Just in the interest of full disclosure, if someone were to track my involvement in these comment streams regarding race, I’m frankly all over map. Sometimes I’m shoulder to shoulder with… Read more »
Bill Mac,
I think that describes me as well.
Disagreements with Dwight and others on this issue stem from proposed solutions not the general idea.
Tarheel,
Here’s Jeff P’s question that I wanted you to answer. Here is a paraphrase of his question:
Would you buy into an organization where you had no voice, no decision making power, no representation, no one that looked like you in a leadership position, no one that looked like you in a hiring/firing position, no one that looked like you who was in charge of a budget…would you want buy in there?
I will answer the question first and then explain why I reject the premise of the question. I would likely not “buy in” to an organization if the situation you presented were in fact the case. With that said – I reject the premise because in the case of the SBC – representation, voice, leadership, ect…is determined not by skin color but by whether or not those “representing” me are qualified faithful southern baptists who share my vision for missions and my affirmation of the BFM2000. So long as my “representatives” meet that criteria I will “buy in” and encourage… Read more »
Tarheel,
Those in have bought into the theological underpinnings & the shared missions endeavors. Bart was calling for a deeper buy in financially & he alluded to “other affilations” being an indicator of less than the level of but in that’s necessary for entity head leadership. He used dual affilations with the BMA & SBC as a disqualifier for entity head leadership. That’s a buy in beyond embracing the theological underpinnings & the missions endeavors of the SBC. I think we’re talking past each other.
Dwight is right. There’s more, for me, than just agreeing with our theological underpinnings. I think it is institutional suicide to put at the helm of our convention or our entities anyone who doesn’t really give a rip about our convention or our entities. Where’s your heart? I want leaders who love this aggregation of believers and churches. The mere presence of a dual affiliation, I should clarify, is not a disqualification in my view. But if another affiliation is your heart-affiliation—if another group is your wife and the SBC is your mistress—then that could lead me not to support… Read more »
Bart, Your concerns are valid for any organization regarding “buy in” before one is placed in leadership at the pinnacle levels. The problem with your position though is, who determines what the bar is related to “buy in.” You & Tarheel obviously have different bars. How does an ethnic joining the SBC know what the bar is; and who determines, what are the metrics for distinguishing between the wife & the mistress? Who decides where one’s heart is more toward the SBC or some other organization? I agree that the names you call have what you call “total buy in”… Read more »
Agreed Bart – agreement on theological underpinnings is but part of the reason for cooperation one might say – Shirley there are other reasons for cooperation. I’m simply arguing that skin color should have nothing to do with it. I am arguing that I am “represented” in the SBC when faithful Southern Baptists are leading the entities. I don’t look to skin tone for my representation. If every single entity later were “Minority” – and they were faithful Orthodox Southern Baptist I would have no issue with that whatsoever. I don’t care what color someone skin is. People are people… Read more »
*Surely not Shirley
*every leader not every later
Lol
You raise a great point Dwight. Perhaps they don’t want the buy in. In addition my suspicion is you can find similar percentages of status quo acceptance across racial and ethnic lines.
I know enough about human nature to know that my inclination to “buy-in” would be a scenario where my ethnic-cultural affiliations are in a majority.
Problem in my opinion is the social engineering of optics that may or may not reflect a movement of HS.
I’m just curious, but does anyone know if there are statistics regarding the ethnic mix in new church plants versus older churches?
Jim, I would certainly hope so as much of our church planting efforts through GCR are focused on unchurched, urban areas which in many areas means largely minority. Then again, as mentioned earlier with the still predominant whiteness of our seminaries, if we are sending white church planters to largely minority communities, they are facing many of the issues of trust that have been discussed in this thread. But yes I’d like to see that info as well
Mark Dever has said that pastors tend to over-estimate what they can accomplish in one year and tend to under-estimate what they can accomplish in ten years.
Russell Moore has led the ERLC for one year. Maybe we ought to wait before we pronounce any verdict upon the accomplishments of his administration in the area of racial integration.
Good point, Bart.
Respectfully, one really doesn’t have to wait ten years to perceive that Moore’s coming out the gate in full social-engineering mode.
Smacks of Washington.
He’s made statements about sbc churches being (present tense) pockets of “unreconstructed racism” … a charge lacking any presentation of data to support the claim.
The reference to post civil-war “reconstruction” demonstrates his lack of grasp on American history IMO.
If any internal “reconstruction” is going to happen, I prefer the initiative and direction of the HS as opposed to systems and quotas based on anything other than the content and character of the individual.
Bart, Brent, Tarheel, Volfan reported a short while back that an Asian was rejected to head the IMB. My assumption is he had to have demonstrated buy in to have been named a finalist. Hispanics have told me that a highly qualified Hispanic with a Ph. D, fluent in Spanish, was rejected for a high profile job. The job was given to a less educated Anglo, who could not speak Spanish, and speaking Spanish was important for this particular job. Again, I know for certain that one of the four African Americans that you name as having buy in-and I… Read more »
I’d vote to hire those men.
Bart, I’m sure that you would hire those men. But, my point is that men who have met the “buy in” threshold, still haven’t been appointed to entity head positions. When one considers that 81 out of 82 persons on the EC committee is White, it raises the question: Why wasn’t persons appointed to the EC commitee from the churches pastored by the four men that you named that meet the “buy in” threshold? Members of their churches certainly qualified. How can we have 20% of our churches classified as minorities and only one lone minority selected to serve on… Read more »
Until the definition of “Buy-in” for the SBC does not have to include that you were present at all of the CR-related annual meetings, we will not make progress in reflecting today’s needs. Nor will we configure for the future. Further, like many organizations, it’s not the written rules that are the problem, nor the stated intentions. It’s the unwritten rules–like one’s involvement with the CR or serving under a pastor that was–which are driving the decisions and relationships. We need to recognize that there are faithful servants of Jesus who weren’t anywhere near the SBC in 1981-1995, and allow… Read more »
I’m not sure I but into (see what I did there? LOL) your working hypothesis that these men you speak of were rejected because they were minorities…That would be overtly illegal and certainly immoral if true…therefore, Unless you have first hand knowledge of that assertion it might not be wise to repeat it.
Personnel decisions are by nature a bit, for lack of a better term, secret and for good reason. There are a myriad of factors that go into the decision whom to hire or recommend to the trustees for hire.
Tarheel,
Would you explain why it is the minority that’s always excluded when it comes to hiring & the decisions to do the hiring is usually made without any minority involvement? Do u believe that is fair & balanced in a convention that boast of 20% minority churches of my money serve me correctly.
We focus too much on relational connections when considering trustee and entity level appointments. I agree with all that Bart has said here and it is very good. However, I am concerned that the bar for “buy in” might be artificially set higher for ethnic minorities in certain regards than it has been for Anglo leaders. We elected a slew of SBC Presidents whose CP giving was around 2%. Were they bought in? We just named David Platt as IMB president. His churches CP giving was very low. We elected Ronnie Floyd as SBC president. His CP giving is up,… Read more »
My “buy in” comments relate more the theological underpinnings than certain level of monetary contributions to the CP – although, I readily admit it is a metric that many use to determine the “Southern Baptistness”. Our church gives generously to the CP because we “buy into” the missionary endeavors and theological underpinnings (BFM2000) of the SBC – For us it has nothing to do with “representation by skin color”. Granted, I have stated in other threads that my personal opinion is that SBC churches should give generously and substantially to the CP and and my preference is 10% – but… Read more »
Question for those posting in favor of quotas (or whatever you call them) and saying things like “its past time we do this” and “its 2015”, etc…: Would you support a denominational rule that local churches have pastoral and support staffs look like the community they are in? If, for example a church has 4 staff (A Senior Pastor, An Associate Pastor, a Music Director, and a Secretary) and they are in a community that is roughly – for discussion – 50% African American and 50% white – then should there be a convention rule that 2 of the staff… Read more »
I’m not necessarily for quotas, but take Alan Cross’ point in regards to the trustees of the EC being 81 of 82 white. 2 minorities would be an improvement. As far as your question, it’s a strawman. You know churches are free to govern and staff as they see fit, as they are accountable to themselves. As for our entities, the are accountable to all of us, at least supposedly
Oh, so church autonomy trumps what is being proposed here as the right thing to do?
If it is the right thing for Southern Baptists to do…then why not support it across the board?
Why not, by quota, make our church staffs and deacon boards look like what we demanding of entities?
Still apples to oranges in your scenario. Although many churches are indeed making an effort to “look like the community in which they serve,” we are talking about making the *leadership* of an organization look like the *membership* of that same organization. Thus, if a church’s *membership* is 50/50 white and black, then I think it would be wise for the church’s *leadership* (including staff, teachers and deacons) to look like that as well. One other point… I think sometimes people reject this notion of fair and balanced member-leader representation because of the “rule” aspect, or the “requirement” aspect. Let… Read more »
Tarheel, unless you are looking to change SBC polity what you state is impossible. So why even pose it? Our churches are autonomous, but are our entities?
My point is that if it’s the right thing to do – it’s the right thing to do – autonomy aside.
Heck maybe we can start with those howling for diversity in the entities actually having it in their churches. Set the example.
If Moore is called into question for not living up to his rhetoric on diversity – shouldn’t bloggers be as well?
Tarheel, so I guess that means I speak from a position of credibility, see as we run about 50/50?
50/50 what?
We run 100% humans – well maybe with a few church mice.
😉
Tarheel, you were the one who called for those calling for the SBC to diversify and become more inclusive to exhibit it in the church. So since we do, is it OK for us to call for diversity, at least progress towards it?
I have no problem with calls for diversity I have problems with calls for quotas. I highly doubt you instituted a quota for your church membership – but if you did and you want to argue for a quota for the entities then by all means go for it.
Lol.
You do realize that my comments on that were a bit tongue-in-cheek and were meant to illustrate my point that diversity has to start within the churches – by your testimony you’re doing it – and like I said I bet you did it without quotas.
Also, didn’t you post at some point that your church is not in the United States?
I’m told that the divisive issues surrounding skin color are not as prevalent and lots of other countries as they are in the United States – is that true in the country you’re serving in?
Tarheel, and I agree about quotas. Stated that earlier. But how about some progress? Any progress? As a church we don’t match the demographics of our neighborhood yet, as it runs about 90% minority. But when we arrived 3 1/2 years ago we as a church were 2% minority and 98% white, and old to boot. So at 50/50 we have made progress. That’s what we need to see, and so far, all we see is talk. We’ve been intentional about becoming more inclusive, so must our leadership and entities in addition to our churches. None of this will happen… Read more »
Jeff – I’m just sincerely concerned that the push for quotas (some call them mechanisms – others call it progress or steps in the right direction – but when it’s really fleshed out it’s quotas) is truly a step in the wrong direction – I think with many the motives are pure but I truly believe that trying to shortcut this by instituting quotas will make the situation worse. It’s almost like some people think that if we just had a black seminary Pres. – or a black entity Pres. – or black chairman of the Board of Trustees that… Read more »
Tarheel, we’re in Columbia…….South Carolina
Where the confederate flag still flies on statehouse grounds. Race is an issue we deal with often
Lol….South Carolina – not sure why I thought you were outside the states – someone I thought said that – sorry for the mix up.
Anyway – lol.
Tarheel, well….we did try to become our own country one time 😉 Kinda involved the same issue we’re still discussing today
If I’m right about where Tarheel is, I’m somewhere between you guys, geographically speaking. Even spent some time in Columbia at CIU. Jeff said something thought-provoking: “Kinda involved the same issue we’re still discussing today” You’re right, but the cause of the issue is less related to slavery and more related to Northern aggression, although I don’t think even that is quite accurate. A little closer to something that is less politically charged what many churches in my area have been going through: worship wars. Older folks want the younger folks to come to church as long they “buy in”… Read more »
Likewise for a church in a city that is say – 75% African-American and 25% white then shouldn’t – say 4 staff member church have 3 African Americans and one white staff members? Wouldn’t having 4 whites on staff – according to arguments made here that – be an injustice?
Maybe such a church should institute a quota?
Following the conversation up to this point, I think there’s a question that’s being begged: that white people can only represent white people and that black people can only represent black people. We will never integrate with that mindset. Dr. Luter, as a counter-example, represented my interests (I’m pretty much a white guy) as president of the SBC, yet not my interests as an individual but as a member of an SBC church. What’s the difference if every single leader in the SBC were black? Would they not represent my interests as such? I think they would even if I… Read more »
Jim,
You make a valid point. But, given the reality of the existence of qualified & willing minorities to serve as entity heads, why aren’t they given an opportunity?
In Acts 6 the early church solved this problem by selecting 7 Greek-speaking men to distribute alms to the Greek widows. That resolved the complaint. The early church could have easily said that the Jewish leaders could very well represent the Grecian wifoes. But, they didn’t say that. Why make such a claim when capable, available, & willing Greek men are willing to serve.
Exactly Dwight,
It is always about inclusion, not about integration (at least as is politically defined). As an example…If there were a situation where I was allowed to serve with a group of men, 50 with a darker colored skin, and 50 with a whiter colored skin,…yet I come to find out that only 50 of those men were Godly and had a darker colored skin. Those are the men that I would serve.
Serving is based in commitment, knowledge, doctrine and inclusion,… forced participation, ranked by skin color, is simply a trap maintained by Satan.
Chris, your comment on Jan. 29 at 12:18 is a great one, indeed.
I’m sure I don’t know who all is willing to serve or not to serve. I’m also not sure the example is completely analogous. The Greek men weren’t chosen to have positions of great power, but it seems like we’re talking about a power struggle in the SBC. Do we… A) have men who desire power? B) want to convey the idea that we’re all in this together to people who don’t trust anyone except members of their own race? C) have existing leadership doesn’t trust people of a certain race? If it’s A or C, then we need to… Read more »
I heard Tony Evans recently on a Moody broadcast. His comments about their evolving ministries (in their “neck of the woods” for us suthenuhs–or “hood”, or neighborhood for others) revealed that they are not very much on the radar of concern for how many whites, Hispanics, or Asians are numerically proportionate or represented. They haven’t joined in with CNN and Politico to insist that the SBC, UMC and other religious organizations get their act together concerning white male domination and homophobia. They are just way too busy seeing God transform lives and inspire very non-traditional methodologies and programs in the… Read more »
Thanks, Glenn. I have a lot of respect for Tony Evans. He hasn’t always been perfect, but I think he has gone a long way. I even sent him a handwritten letter once commending him on a message and he responded with a card with a short, handwritten note on it. That’s way more than I expect from a man with the time constraints I’m sure he is under as a pastor and a national public figure. My grandfather, who was a Baptist preacher in another time when racial sensibilities were not as good as what they are today, in… Read more »
Dwight,
Jesus and his apostles were a group “representing” a single, what might say, “race”….so was Jesus committing an injustice in not including other “people groups” in his close nit group of Apostles? Is the message they shared suspect because it was not initially carried forth by people “representing” varying skin tones?
Tarheel, If you study the complexions of the Jews of Palestine during the time of Jesus you will discover that they came in a wide range of colors. Jesus himself was a person whose “hair was like lamb’s wool,” and “his feet was like bronze or brass,” “his head was white”[the greek word used for ‘white’ in Revelation 1 describing Jesus indicates the color of white whine, therefore we can surmise that Jesus complexion resembled the color of white wine]. Jews come then and now in a wide variety of colors. There is no reason to believe that all of… Read more »
But it’s safe to say none were black (so to speak) so I ask again was Jesus’ ministry based on what buys give – and not giving “voice” to those with darker skin tones?
*what buys give – should read *injustice
Wow! How did you get there from here 🙂
I thought I was bad at spelling.
Wow. Your autocorrect has some issues, Tarheel. One might admit that whatever Jesus did was absolutely right, and therefore is beyond question *when He does it.* But you take that same group of folks, and the second problem in the church, after lying about money, is that there is perceived racial/ethnic injustice, isn’t it? And do we not see, typically, that part of the response in Acts 6 is to broaden the ethnic base of church leadership–even if meant “creating” positions for the new group? I don’t know quite how that all should mirror over into today, since we have… Read more »
Heel, bloctem surtsin johtu lave.
Your friend, dean
Tarheel,
No it’s not safe to say “none were Black.” Many of them would fit the American definition of Black, in complexion and features…”hair like lamb’s wool”…”feet like bronze or brass” They were a mixed multitude-African and Jewish(Exodus 12: 38).
Tarheel,
Jesus certainly “gave voice to darker skin tones.” His voice was one of them.
So he gave no voice to white folk, then as there were none of them in the inner circle? My point is – your line of argumentation purports that only those with dark skin can represent those with dark skin and only those white skin can represent those white skin so if Jesus and his apostles had dark skin – then were whites were treated with injustice, by the lack of “representation” right? I say of course not – the message of Christ and the apostles is universal and skin tone is irrelevant to that message – both with regard… Read more »
Tarheel, No where have I argued here or elsewhere that only “Blacks can represent Blacks.” Please retract that erroneous and deliberately false allegation, or demonstrate and document where I’ve made such an outrageous, unbiblical, untrue, and impractical claim. What I have said that 81 out of 82 EC committee members being White is an injustice…and it is. I’ve said that zero entity heads who are Asian, Hispanic, or African American is blatantly non-reflective of the multi-racial composition of the SBC. That my friend is simply a fact. Why do you think that there is a ample representation of Black speakers… Read more »
Dwight, I think you’ve you some pretty harsh language – deliberately false? That’s essentially calling me a liar, is that what you mean to do? No, I do not think you have use those exact words – but I am not the only one on this thread who has understood that to be your inference. Please read the comments by others who have stated the same understanding of your comments. You’ve been pretty clear that you feel that blacks do not “have a voice” in the SBC because they are not represented in the leadership – you said that you… Read more »
Tarheel,
White scholars have argued that everyone in the Bible is White. William F. Albright, A H Sayce, Dake, and many, many others have made such a claim. Most White scholars would argue that the disciples were White. Therefore, they had a voice according to White scholarship. I believe that one could find all colors represented among the disciples. That’s simply the racial makeup of that area, and that was more-so true in Bible days.
Furthermore, Tarheel, Russell Moore represents me and the entire composition of the SBC in an excellent manner. I’m grateful beyond measure that Moore is at the helm of the ERLC. He is God’s man for that job at this unique juncture in our nations history. I am proud that he is my representative and more importantly the Kingdom’s representative regarding race issues in my denomination of choice at this hour. I dare venture to say that if a Black, Asian, or Hispanic man had made some of the statements, and taking some of the positions that Russell Moore has taken… Read more »
I felt the same way about Fred Luter – I have stated many times that I do not care what skin color or a person has – it is a relevant to me – I care more about who the person is (i.e. their character, their value system, what they believe, etc.)
I voted for Dr. Kim for president – because I felt that he would be a better president in lots of ways than Ronnie Floyd – and none of those reasons had anything to do with skin color.
*Irrelevant.
Dwight,
You said – “White scholars have argued that everyone in the Bible is White. William F. Albright, A H Sayce, Dake, and many, many others have made such a claim.”
And that claim is patently ridiculous. Several years ago we had all of the “portraits of Christ”/”portraits of apostles” removed from the hallways and classrooms of our church – reason? Because of the patently ridiculous caricatures of blonde haired blue eyed American looking Men.
Jesus and his apostles were not “white”, was not “black” – he and the apostles most likely looked like people we identify as “Arabs” today.
Tarheel, I am saying that Whites in leadership ought to include people who look like me, especially if they meet the buy-in threshold. For the last time, yes, Whites can represent me, and Blacks can represent Whites. That’s not the point. The point is that all should be seated at the table, not just Whites. To extrapolate anything else from my words is to put words in my mouth. Please retract the allegations that I am arguing that Whites can’t represent Blacks. As much as you regret it, President Obama represents you, simply because he’s the President & you &… Read more »
I’m not against inclusion – I’m for it – I’m against appointing anyone to position because of their skin color and further my opposition to that is just as strong and just as fervent as my opposition to excluding a person because of their skin color.
Respectfully Dwight – I’m sticking by tge assertion that you’ve implied what I said.
If you’re adequately and fairly represented by Moore and people of his skin tone – then what is your point in insisting blacks be there in avoid what you’ve called “injustice”?
Additionally – as I said I am not the only person on the thread who has taken your comments to imply what I have asserted that they imply. Why are you not demanding retractions from them?
Dwight and Tarheel, If I may offer a few words of peace… It seems to me that Dwight is saying that Moore represents him but he still wants blacks on the ERLC for other reasons. And also in other places. Dwight, good non-racist white people are color blind. And they can’t understand why you are not. I think your goal should be to become colorblind as well. But just like the white folk just didn’t become color blind overnight, it isn’t going to happen very quickly. [And by you, I mean non-racist good black Christians, as a whole.] Is not… Read more »
Thanks Mike – your comments are welcome and will be considered. You’ve made good points. I appreciate it.
Mike, Your comments were/are appreciated. I get your point. I agree with the sentiments that your points convey, Slight pushback though. The goal of being colorblind is not a biblical goal. God made the colors(Acts 17: 26). All of His creation is colorful. A one color world, race, and creation would be rather boring. The goal is not for Tarheel or me to become color blind. Usually those who argue for colorblindness are the ones already included & empowered. The goal is to not allow color to be a barrier or hindrance to full inclusion(Acts 2: 5, 13: 1,2; John… Read more »
I am headed back to my eye dock this week. It seems that I am not color blind and I perhaps “should be”. Maybe he can fix me. I am neither color blind, nor ethnicity deaf. And I hear real good too. My wife wants me to grow up to be a mute. If I refuse, she just wants me to grow up. I have numerous friends who are mixed ethnicity (like our President). Talk about a slice of our society that gets an extra dose of prejudice–darts from both sides. This group is growing rapidly in our country. If… Read more »
I would like to chime in if I may. I believe Dwight when he says that he believes that whites in the SBC can represent him. The very fact that Dwight has remained with the SBC and not left us speaks to that truth very well. He is just saying that it is time for a change, time for the cronyism to stop, time to look at qualified folks outside of the usually candidates. I for one agree with him completely.
“He is just saying that it is time for a change, time for the cronyism to stop, time to look at qualified folks outside of the usually candidates. I for one agree with him completely.”
I do too – I just don’t favor making skin color the basis – that would be simply exchanging an undesirable system of cronyism with another undesirable system of skin color-based preferences.
Tarheel,
It’s a little hard to diversify if you don’t take note of those differences. If you have qualified candidates who are people of color, why not at this point give them an extra look? It’s not affirmative action, it’s convention working toward diversity. Diversity must be intentional.
My issue is with the focusing on external differences as if they are foundational to the character and the soul of the person – truthfully skin color is no different in determining who a person is then the color of their hair – but it would be absolutely ridiculous – and rejected by everyone – if we set quota in place for people with large noses versus people with small noses. People are people skin color is simply an external matter – it is my position that we make it far too important in our society and that does nothing… Read more »
I hear you Tarheel. And I track with you until I am reminded of passages like Genesis 11, Genesis 12:1-3, Acts 2:5-11, Galatians 3:28, Revelation 5:9, etc. I am like you. I am not sure I understand WHY skin color matters any more than the size of one’s nose matters. But what I do know is that it DOES matter. It matters to those who feel disenfranchised by a system that has led to ONLY white entity heads and MOSTLY white trustees. And I believe it matters to God, as evidence by the passages mentioned above. We ought not to… Read more »
It matters to God in that he created us that way and we should never be ashamed of who we are, what we look like, or how we been created – Shall the clay say to the potter why has not made me thus? I’m with you there. I am not sure those cited passages imply that there are *differences* between people of different skin color in the eyes of God – in fact I think those scriptures teach that there is unity in our common need for the gospel – and Unity in celebration of such – regardless of… Read more »
Our son pastors a church that is integrated. We have about five or six black members and at least two integrated families, i.e., white wife and black husband, black husband, white wife. These days, the church will take any and all who are willing to receive and follow Christ as He is presented in the Bible. It helps to say that the last church I served had Blacks who attended sporadically. Some were friends of our son in grade school and high school. We had at least one young man who come and spend a night with our son, and… Read more »
Good thoughts, Dr. Willingham. We have several members of our church of recognizably different ethnicities. Nevertheless, we are still a mostly white church. We just had a funeral this week for a black member with ties to the black community. (Most of our neighborhoods are integrated these days and she didn’t live in the traditional black neighborhood in town, which even has white people in it too now. It’s not fitting to say that there is a black neighborhood per se, but we all recognize that there is a black community because of extended families, etc.) Because of her ties… Read more »
William, Thank you for the post, it would appear from the discussion that we all agree that there is a problem but disagree about the right course of action. If the intelligentsia of the Convention push for a social progressive approach ( redefining the Gospel, quotas for entities and Seminaries etc) this means that many must be willing to step aside to let others go before them. Some of course will not voluntarily step aside so they must be sacrificed on the altar of social progressivism for the greater good of the organization. The discussion on this blog shows that… Read more »
You’re right Wilbur – i’ve asked the question a couple of times whether Dr. Moore (for example – but he would be the one since he’s “Leading the charge here”) would be willing to step aside so that a “minority” could be placed in his position? I ask tgis a bit tongue-in-cheek because I don’t really want or expect him to do that – but if he were to and were to announce that was his reason and a minority was put into that position that I think people would see the point that the new appointed would, in the… Read more »
*NOT be judged on their character and qualifications and INSTEAD be seen as the “affirmative action hire/appointment”.
Tarheel, I remember meeting you in Baltimore, and appreciated our brief visit. I recently read that when you meet people & get to know them “the horns come off”-:). “Your horns came off” in Baltimore-:). But, with your latest “affirmative action hire” quote…you are about to put your horns back on. That almost tops the outrageous comments that you’ve made here…and that’s pretty hard to do. No one, absolutely no one, is advocating an affirmative action hire. No one is saying substituting color for competence. To suggest such is patently offensive. That’s why I question the wisdom of “buy in”… Read more »
Dwight, Respectfully, truly respectfully, I realize that you have not said that you want an affirmative action higher but when what you’re advocating is taken to its logical conclusion and that is what you have – quotas, no matter how lofty the goal – and how sincere and good intended the gold may be and in this case is – the reality is that when a person is hired because of a quota then those questions are always going to be in the forefront – this is why I oppose skin color quotas so strongly – this is why I… Read more »
Dwight,
I enjoyed meeting you too in Baltimore – I hope to see you in Columbus!
Tarheel, Precisely, philosophically many ideas sound really good, even admirable but in the application things can go haywire. This is why the conference must spell out exactly what they want the SBC to do and then let us in the trenches discuss this within the context of the local church. We all agree that racial reconciliation is close to the heart of God the question is how can a denomination address the issue without embracing a secular philosophy that has thus far yielded poor results not to mention tampering with the Gospel itself. In my hind the Gospel is the… Read more »
Wilbur,
Would you be more specific regarding who is “tampering with the gospel” and in what way is the gospel being tampered with?
Dwight,
It has been suggested on this blog that social justice is innate to the Gospel. My viewpoint is that justice is the result or byproduct of the Gospel. The distinction is important.
wilbur
Yes, it’s a very important distinction.
Wilbur, Jesus called the gospel “the gospel of the kingdom.” The “kingdom” implies all people, “every creature.” Therefore the preaching of the gospel includes the reaching & the reconciling of the races. Jesus called the greatest commandment loving God and loving people. Therefore, racial reconciliation is a gospel demand. A gospel that centers on the cross of Jesus but neglects the crown of Jesus-his reign, rule, and authority, over the affairs of man…is not the gospel that Jesus preached. A gospel that wants people souls slaved while simultaneously enslaving them, is a gospel that is woefully insufficient and misinformed. That’s… Read more »
Wilbur, Social justice, to me, means justice in the sphere of society or the world. Peace between people. But that is not the work of the church. The work of the church is to proclaim Jesus Christ is that peace. But how can we proclaim that He is that peace IF we are not at least working towards peace within the church? There is then at least two issues. One issue is the social justice issue in which the church should be proclaiming that trust in Jesus is the answer. The other issue is that within the church, we should,… Read more »
Wilbur,
Paul clearly equated the gospel with racial reconciliation in Galatians 2: 14. A proper understanding & application of what Paul said there, should forever settle the question of whether or not the gospel demands racial reconciliation.
Brother Dwight, Thank you for your lengthy response. I agree with you that “racial reconciliation is a gospel demand.” Racial reconciliation is a gospel demand as much as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, caring for orphans and widows, ministering to the handicapped, teenage pregnancy, drug abuse, concern for the persecuted church, acting to stop pornography, suicide prevention, advancing literacy, advocating smoking cessation classes etc, etc. Each of these and so many more are “gospel demands”. And as such local congregations need to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s leading in how to address them at the… Read more »
Wow Wilbur. I totally disagree with everything you have written in your comment. And strongly disagree.
Tarheel, tell me if you think it a reasonable expectation that THE one SBC agency that calls for and promotes racial integration, harmony, and justice has at least some minorities in top leadership. Then tell me if you think that the notable LACK of any minority in high level position at the ERLC opens them up to criticism and undermines their general call for racial harmony and their specific call for congregations to be more racially diverse. I haven’t called for the ERLC CEO or any other head to be replaced by a minority or that any concrete numerical policy… Read more »
William, “Tarheel, tell me if you think it a reasonable expectation that THE one SBC agency that calls for and promotes racial integration, harmony, and justice has at least some minorities in top leadership.” Hopefully though he’s not advocating preferential actions based on skin color (which will end up With quotas) but if he does – then I think he should live up to The rhetoric. “Then tell me if you think that the notable LACK of any minority in high level position at the ERLC opens them up to criticism and undermines their general call for racial harmony and… Read more »
TH, the question was (1) is it a reasonable expectation? Either it is or it isn’t, and (2) do you think credibility would be enhanced on racial issues?
But if you want to answer questions not asked, fine.
Yes, it’s reasonable and his credibility will be increased if he practices what he preaches.
The principle of diversification is one that we all agree on – it’s the methods of implementation that lead to the disagreements.
I’d like to know what implementation methods he’s calling for.
So far as I know he is calling for church racial action by use of education and persuasion which are what I would expect the ERLC to do.
In regard to his own staff, he hasn’t volunteered and hasn’t been asked.
I, for one, do not think that Moore has to fix a perceived problem before calling for the problem to be fixed. I’m not sure there is a problem, but I fully understand why a black man would like to see other black men in leadership positions. I also understand the wisdom in SBC entities reflecting the “look” of the churches. There are certainly a great many capable folks of all types to fill these positions. A call for color-blindness rings hollow when compared to the reality of the world we live in. Race matters, but racism is sin. A… Read more »
Don,
Your comment here is a 5 star comment. I give it a million likes.
Dwight, As I have read and followed this discussion it seems to me that Dr. Moore has been left off the hook. As William has pointed out, perhaps Moore had his mind on other things when elected, but before he gets in front of cameras or writes commentary that churches should get their act together, it would seem that he should have looked in the mirror and dealt with his own oversight on staffing. My question to you Dwight is, “Reading that you respect Moore greatly, have you had any correspondence with him (either by phone, email, etc.) speaking of… Read more »
Nate, Russell Moore & I met each other, when we debated each other on the gift of tongues at the SBC San Antonio. We have no close personal relationship. I see him at the annual SBC. He heard I was on Southern’s campus in the library doing independent study, & he made his way there to greet & welcome me. Beyond that, we have had no ongoing relationship or communication. During the Trayvon Martin controversy, he made what I considered a great statement in response. I publicly lauded his statement & he sent me a communicaid thanking me for my… Read more »
Thanks Dwight.. I’m sorry if I came across as blaming Moore as that wasn’t my point. I do think he could set a great precedence (when he took office) because he does believe what you have described and I do think leaders in high profile positions lead best when they lead by example. That was my point and I still would encourage you to consider sending him a note to encourage him as well (perhaps you have).
Just as MLK fought for the integration of society, Russell Moore’s legacy might be having fought for the integration of the SBC & her churches. The fact that the SBC ERLC is leading & hosting this discussion & not the NBC is significant. Just as it took King to lead the fight for the integration of society–it would have been easier to dismiss & silence the voice of a White leader calling for this–it’s going to take a White brother to lead the fight for the integration of our churches.
“it’s going to take a White brother to lead the fight for the integration of our churches”
I think that is a correct insight, but you and others will need to work inside the historically black church affiliations as well.
Thanks for being a willing participant.
Nate,
I believe that is why the Lord has brought me to the place of leadership at the Associational level, and growing acceptance at the National level within the NBC; so that I can be used of God to advance His Kingdom in cooperation with the people of God who are Baptist & of color. I pray that God would use me to help bridge the gap. Thanks for your response Nate. I appreciate what you had to say in it.
The bottom line in my mind is that there doesn’t have to be a quota, simply an intentional effort at diversification. We have several very capable black men in the convention. Dwight McKissic, Voddie Baucham, H.B. Charles, and Bryan Carter just to name a few.
The idea of an “intentional effort” as the key seems like the way to start.
John Wiley, Parsonmike, Tarheel,
“Intentional effort.” I’ll vote for that. Now, if we can get Tarheel to vote for that, I’ll take the”horns off of him.”-:).
Personally, Although there are lots of positions that are desirable, I would like to see a black seminary president. They bring a fire to the pulpit that I would love to see reignited in the SBC.
Ken Fentress, Senior Pastor of the Montrose Church in Rockville, Md would be someone who could fill those shoes, although I don’t know that he would have an interest.
I sat under him for two Hebrew courses and a class on Genesis. His daughter and my daughter were friends at the school they attended. I was sad to see him leave Southern Seminary.
Is he the guy who was nominated for SBC president? Or was that a different Maryland pastor?
That was Dr. Kim.. different guy..
Ken Fentress would make a great SBC seminary President. So would Robert Smith. Golden Gate has a Black Professor who made the finalist list when they hired their current President. He would also make a great President. His name escapes me at the moment.
Thanks Nate
Brother Dwight,
I am glad that there are so many qualified brothers out there who would fit the bill nicely. That fact alone should be enough to set aside any comparison to affirmative action or quotas. I am also glad to hear that the professor in California at least made the short list in the process.
I’d need to know how that noble sounding phrase is defined…before I’d vote for it. So I guess for now – the horns stay on – whatever that means. Maybe the application process – or vetting process – should be changed so as to hide identities of applicants until later in the process so that there is no racial preference debate whatsoever. Maybe all applicants (instead of nominations) do so by computer and are assigned a number by computer – and identifying information is not part of the process until vetting process takes place based on qualifications and strengths. This… Read more »
Tarheel,
As much as our race (and yes there are races) has discriminated against the black man, you are genuinely worried about us showing a little intentionality toward a person of color? If they meet the qualifications why does it matter that their ethnicity is also considered? People of other ethnicities bring so much to the table, and it runs much deeper than simply skin color. It includes customs, and perspectives, and experiences. We ought to embrace an intentional consideration of minority candidates for key positions.
Tarheel,
Are you familiar with the NFL rule that requires NFL teams to interview at least one minority while looking for a head coach? That rule has lead to at least 3 Black head coaches competing for Super Bowl championships & (I believe, if memory serves me correctly) two of them one the SB. Without that rule in place they all maintain that they would not have been interested viewed or hired for the head coaching jobs. We ought to at least require such a rule in the SBC. That would be intentional minority consideration for entity head hiring.
Tarheel, I think that a better idea is t devise a way that intentionally mixes up the racial makeup in targeted entities. The idea is to jump start an inclusion of minorities. Now will the best person for the job get hired? Who knows, but who knows even now? Aren’t many hires part of a system or network? So Admin A hires applicant B because B is from A’s alma mater. B is qualified but is hired over C because of a separate reason. So instead of that reason, hire D, also qualified, who happens to be a minority: An… Read more »
John, I just don’t think another form of discrimination is the answer to discrimination – and a quota – by definition – is discrimination. I just don’t think you fix a wrong by implementing a different spin on the same wrong. It’s wrong to intentionally NOT hire a person because of their skin color – so it stands to reason that it is wrong to intentionally hire a person because of their skin color – That’d be wrong because in actuality you are discriminating against people who are not a certain skin color because they can’t get the job because… Read more »
Perhaps I should’ve said to fix a *perceived* wrong – because I do not believe for a minute that there has been intentional discrimination based on the skintones resulting in a refusal to hire as it relates to the top jobs in the Southern Baptist convention – as I’ve said before and I think most of us probably agree the hires/appointments are more of a result of the cronyism and boys club mentality. It’s the same circle of friends and acquaintances that get these jobs.
John, you said – ” If they meet the qualifications why does it matter that their ethnicity is also considered?” Are you afraid that no minorities would rise to the top in a process like that? Do you think that minorities need the help of Whites granting them position to succeed because they can’t do it without receiving special treatment or consideration? I truly doubt you think that – but at its root – affirmative action/quotas suggest exactly that. This is why I suggested the “blind computer model” so to speak where skin color it’s not even a consideration until… Read more »
Tarheel,
Many times both or many applicants are equally qualified for the job, and the one chosen is not more qualified than another. So the one chosen is chosen based on some other consideration.
In the idea of Intentionally Choosing Minorities, the equally qualified minority would be hired over all other considerations, with the idea of promoting reconciliation and unity. There wouldn’t be a quota but a concerted effort to hire qualified minorities.
mike
In my comment posted at:
January 31, 2015 at 10:45 pm
Of course, when referencing not believing that people were intentionally not hired in the SBC because of skin tone – I’m referring to modern times/currently. Of course this type of discrimination happened in the past – I obviously don’t deny that.
Mike, I know that – that’s why I suggested not knowing identities until final stages of process when those other considerations like you speak of come into play.
At that point – so long as there’s not a requirement to hire One skintone over another – that may form of “intentionality” I may could find agreement with.
I just have a hard time getting on board with us saying we must have a minority at the beginning of an hiring process because that discriminates against anyone who is not in that category.
Tarheel,
Minorities were intentionally left out of that circle for the far greater part of SBC history. Wouldn’t you consider that a “wrong” that needs to be corrected?
We can’t correct the past.
I just have trouble with the idea of atoning for sins of the past with a “new and improved” form of dscriminatory practices.
Tarheel, My final word on this subject for the night. Please don’t ever express in writing or verbally that when a minority entity head is hired that it is an “affirmative action hire.” First of all that would’t be true. Secondly, it’s intended to be a criticism/put down rather than a compliment. Thirdly, it would cause their cola borers, staff, SBC family, outsiders, and others to view them in that light. That would be so unfair to the person hired, and to those that would celebrate an appreciate the hire. One thing for certain is that cannot be said ’bout… Read more »
I would not have to say that or write that for people to think that if a quota is put in place.
IMO, Quotas (whatever we call them) don’t help the further the cause (we both desire) they create more obstacles.
The problem with your argument is that it ultimately leaves us with no remedy. To simply say, oh well, the answer lies in color blindness is not dealing in reality. The only way to remedy this disparity is by being intentional and deliberate in our actions. Just like getting rid of cronyism will require deliberateness.
My remedy is a blind applicant process until the final stages….this deals with cronyism and this issue as well. Do t you think People of all skintones would rise to the top in such a process? Or again, do certain people need help to rise to the top? Are they incapable of doing so on their own merits? I happen to think that people of all skintones will rise to the top without the help of quotas. As I indicated to Mike above, I understand that in the final stages when you have several equally qualified applicants that all sorts… Read more »
Tarheel,
How would the blind applicant process work? Would the applicant’s name be known early in the process?
No – the applicant would submit application by computer and the computer was assigned a number to that individual and the committee will only be looking at numbers and data not names/locations/church names/place of employment etc….all identifying data is stripped until “top numbers” are chosen.
I have never even heard of such a thing. Is this sort of thing already in use by some employers?
Forget the blind processes…will never happen for significant SBC positions, maybe for any SBC positions. We’re all about power: power to give jobs, power to influence job givers, etc.
But have a fun discussion anyway…
William, It’s not just the SBC. But what it will take is a single person in power who has the integrity not to hire his friends. I serve on a school board and a few years ago we were in the process of hiring a new superintendent. The principal placed his name in the hat, and there were some on the board who simply wanted to place him in that position. What we ended up doing was treating him like any other candidate. In the end, we chose to hire a different person. What I am trying to say is… Read more »
John, the difference between your BOE experience and the SBC is that the former has, by law, to be public and open. The latter does not. School boards can still hire in house pals but it has to be done openly and pay etc. is public.
William,
You’ve got a point there. But I am a believer that things can change and great improvements can be made.
Even though our process was open in hiring a superintendent , we still could have simply hired the principal. It would have pleased a lot of people, and we would not have been required to interview anyone else. Although we are required to post the opening and receive resumes, we were not required to consider any of them. My point remains that one person in power making a conscious choice to end cronyism is all that is required.
Actually John, wouldn’t it be a majority of the board required to end cronyism?
One person insisting on interviewing other applicants would prove pointless if the majority of the board were dead set on the “crony”, right?
Tarheel,
It has been my experience in life that most people are naturally followers, so it only takes one assertive person to turn the tide. And while it is true that the majority have to vote that way, swaying the vote isn’t all that difficult.
True enough I suppose – unless you had two assertive people pulling in different directions.
🙂
William, I agree wholeheartedly! That is the real problem that must be dealt with.
This is why I suggested the blind computer process. It eliminates much of the “appoint my friends” power structure.
John,
I would think that companies use such methods as they require online applications and identifying questions of skin color, gender, etc…are not even asked…you have to pass through several predetermined computer “filters” before an actual person even sees the resume.
In fact – I would hope that churches do not ask ascertain the answers to questions regarding skin color of candidates who send resumes for the committees consideration…in fact unless the candidate submits a pic, video or other skin color identifying info the committee might not even know the skin color of the candidate until they ask for and receive a video or sneak into his correct church under cover to watch him preach – LOL.
Our church is going through the process of hiring another pastoral staff member and that was certainly true for us.
This all reminds me of what Oliver Hardy told Stan, “Here’s another NICE mess you’ve gotten me into.” I had lunch with three ladies yesterday. Didn’t mean to. One of them asked me if I was a minister and it went from there. Turns out these are 3 sisters, each living in a different town here in Georgia, but meeting together for “church”. We had a great time. I asked them to give me their wisdom on the subject we have been discussing here on this blog for the last few days. My only regret is that I didn’t have… Read more »
Glen,
Do you mind sharing a little more specifics ’bout the 3 sisters comments. I couldn’t glean from your post what they may have indeed said; or what their take actually is.
Hi Dwight, Each of them brought in their own experience and church back-ground. 1-Pentecostal 1-AME 1-Non-Denom They found more than a few points of disagreement along the way in which I could have gone out for a hair cut and I don’t think they would have missed me. What they did agree on was: 1-If the pastors ain’t for it (better relations and associations) it will never get better. They each had pastors they loved and knew they loved them. 2-Folks can be scared until they meet and talk eye to eye. The deliberate need is for pastors to have… Read more »
Glen,
Thanks for the details. I think these kinds of conversations lead to better race relations. Thanks for engaging them. Sounds like a really great time of fellowship & exchanging info-seeking to understand each other.
And Yes!!!! I want to know how you answered the ladies question.
Dwight, It was very much the pressure, I suppose, of a news reporter asking you a question you’d prefer not to answer. She never lost eye contact with me. I could tell somehow that she had asked this question to others before as well. I said, “I hate to tell you the truth, but the reality is—a majority in our church would welcome you with open arms and heart. But in my heart and experience, I also know that your chances of a rejection are real. No, they won’t come right out and say, “go away”, but it will be… Read more »
How far are you willing to go? Does that cause anyone else to think of Jesus commanding us to go the extra mile with NON-believers? If we’d go the extra mile with them, how much further should we go with our fellow members of the Bride? Or said a little differently, is there anything that a priori we should be opposed to doing on the grounds that it expects too much of US?
Galatians 3:26-28(NIV) (I’m a white guy, and the relevance of my disclosure of that will become apparent in a moment) So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Certainly verse 28 can be extended to include… fat nor skinny, tall nor short, BLACK nor WHITE.” Because we are all one in Christ Jesus, we should avoid… Read more »