Editor: CB shared this with me, and I meant to put it up on New Year’s weekend – I was in deep mourning because evil prevailed so constantly in football, both college and pro over the weekend and my brain was not functioning correctly. I forgot. The video is pretty graphic.
Beverage alcohol is a drug. The use of beverage alcohol has brought much sorrow to many people. The video below was sent to those of us in Alabama who support ALCAP (Alabama Citizens Action Program). I ask you to watch it. Give it some thought.
I have a deep hatred for alcohol, nevertheless, it is the abuse of alcohol, not the use of alcohol that’s the problem. There are literally millions of Christians who use alcohol, and I personally know several, who never abuse it.
Brother Jared,
Your “abuse” not “use” is a weak argument. Dr. Adrian Rogers said; “Moderation is the cause to the alcohol problem in America, not the cure for it.”
Blessings,
Tim
Amen, Tim Rogers.
Adrian Rogers has two great sermons on “The Battle for the Bottle.” You can get it at lwf.org.
It ought to be required listening in all our seminaries.
David R. Brumbelow
Tim,
According to your line of reasoning we should also not do anything that brings pleasure via ours senses lest we become gluttonous and idolatrous because “moderation is the cause.”
Joshua,
The Adrian Rogers quote is specific to the use of beverage alcohol. The sermon from which this quote was taken is specific to the use of beverage alcohol and the problems inherent to its use.
David R. Brumbelow directed the thread to the sermon’s location. It is an excellent sermon related to the use of beverage alcohol.
You are a young guy. If God grants, you have a lot of productive ministry ahead of you. I think you would do well to at least go to the lwf.org site and listen to it.
That is just my opinion. I realize the Jesus did not say in the Scripture, “If you use beverage alcohol you will burn in hell.” That is not my point at all.
Nonetheless, I do think hell has enjoyed the continual laxness and passivity of Christian preachers and teachers related to the problems directly related to the use of beverage alcohol.
CB,
I understand Rogers’s context but it is perfectly valid to apply the same principle to other activities which can become sinful. My point remains valid.
The issue is, Rogers believed the Bible taught total abstinence. Thus, he could say that “moderation is the problem,” attributing the slightest use of alcohol to leading to sin. I, as many other good Southern Baptists, believe the Bible does not teach total abstinence but prohibits drunkenness.
Personally, I am a tee-totaler. I was delivered out of alcohol and drug use at the age of 23 by the grace of the Lord and his glorious Gospel. However, I see no biblical warrant for total abstinence for all men nor will I preach or proclaim such. The problem is sin and I will preach and proclaim the forgiveness and freedom from it which is found only in Christ.
Joshua,
You said, “I see no biblical warrant for total abstinence for all men nor will I preach or proclaim such.”
How about, “Be sober” (1 Peter 5:8; and elsewhere). Sober is the Greek word “nepho” which literally means “wineless.”
David R. Brumbelow
CB,
Call me when Adrian Rogers’ words become Scripture. 🙂
David,
My response is at the bottom of the thread.
Joshua & Mark,
Notice what I have not said as well as what I have said. Mark, you know I did not say, nor do I believe Adrian Rogers words are Scripture. Although, I know he was a good expositor of the Word, as I am sure you would agree, if you are familiar with his ministry.
Joshua, I never did drink or use drugs prior to my conversion. I have to confess that all the terrible things I did, I did with willful intent and more sober than the judges and prosecutors who were constantly trying to send me to prison.
I did not abstain from the use of drugs and alcohol because I thought it was wrong. I had no concern with what was wrong or what was right back then. My reason’s were totally mercenary. I saw what happened to a lot of guys like me who used drugs and alcohol. It made them make mistakes that got them locked up or dead. I had no desire to be in either condition.
You stated that you are now an abstainer from the use of alcohol and other drugs. You stated you had been “delivered from its use” at 23. How that all started is none of my business. But I would imagine that the first time you used drugs or alcohol, you did not do so with willful intent to later have it become a serious problem in your life.
I would think few people use alcohol for the first time with willful intent for it to become a serious problem in their lives. I am pretty sure, although not positive, that was what Adrian Rogers meant in the quote used above by Tim Rogers and referenced by David R. Brumbelow.
The person who begins to use alcohol as a beverage never knows if he will become an abuser of its use.
We can debate all we desire about the scriptural prohibitions or the lack thereof. But we ‘all’ know that “the person who begins to use alcohol as a beverage never knows if he will become an abuser of its use.”
We also know that beverage alcohol does harm human beings in the womb. We know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. What we do not know is how much consumption of beverage alcohol it takes to bring about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in an unborn human being. Yet, we do know that if women in their child bearing years do not use beverage alcohol their babies will not be born with FAS.
BTW, Mark and Joshua, did you watch the video? All I had asked of anyone was to watch the video and think about it.
CB,
Those are all great pragmatic reasons not to drink but pragmatism does not trump Scripture. Alcohol consumption is not prohibited.
My initial response was to Tim Rogers’s inconsistency, not the video.
Joshua,
You are right. “Pragmatism does not trump Scripture.”
That is true. Yet, the Scripture, in both the OT and NT mandates the use of common sense.
I also realize we, as believers, fail in many areas to use the common sense mandated by Scripture. Several of those things are always used in discussions on the use of alcohol.
Yet, it is plan enough that the lack of the use of common sense is far more costly in regard to some things. The use of beverage alcohol is one of them. Obviously, in our culture, it is a major area wherein the absence of common sense is evident, bloodily and tearfully so.
Tim,
I liked Dr. Rogers. Great preacher whom I admired and loved hearing him preach at Mid America Baptist Seminary while I was there. But he was wrong on this one. The bible itself does not attribute the problem to the “use” of alcohol. The bible celebrates the proper use of it and condemns the misuse (drunkenness) of it.
Dr. Rogers was right on target. We shouldnt try to explain away the book of Proverbs teaching on this subject about the foolishness of drinking fermented wine.
David
Les,
The Bible never celebrates or condones the use of alcohol.
If you are assuming the word “wine” is alcoholic (and / or always means alcohol), that is an “interpretation,” not you just taking the Bible for what it says.
Biblical and ancient use of the word “wine” is not synonymous with “alcohol.”
David R. Brumbelow
Vol and David B.,
Vol I think you should have said “the foolishness of getting drunk on wine.” Proverbs condemns drunkenness.
David B. yes the bible celebrates the use of alcohol, as with any good thing He created. He gave it to us to “gladden the heart” (Psalm 104).
With respect I think you are the one putting an interpretive spin on the word wine. ut this debate isn’t new, is it?
Oh, I forgot:
“then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.”
(Deuteronomy 14:25-26 ESV)
Les,
The Bible often mentions nonalcoholic or unfermented wine and calls it “wine.” Examples include Proverbs 3:10 (just pressed grapes always produce unfermented wine or grape juice); Isaiah 16:10; Joel 2:24; Matthew 9:17 (First mention of wine, oinos, in this verse is unfermented. Second mention of oinos in this verse is fermented wine. Jesus Himself here calls unfermented wine, “wine.”).
Interestingly, the modern English translations translate this obviously nonalcoholic wine with the English word, “wine.”
So in light of this, maybe the question is, “Why do you ‘interpret’ Psalm 104 to refer to alcohol?”
David R. Brumbelow
For those who may wonder about Deuteronomy 14:26:
Deuteronomy 14:26 – Does it Commend Alcohol?
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2011/08/deuteronomy-1426-does-it-commend.html
David R. Brumbelow
Les,
You are right. “this debate isn’t new, is it?”
Nor are the inherent problems humans have with the use of beverage alcohol. Actually, the problems have only increased in our present culture. Thus, the debate continues.
There is a problem with the debate though. Far too many men of God have cooled off on the need for the debate to continue. And again, that is my opinion.
David,
““Why do you ‘interpret’ Psalm 104 to refer to alcohol?””
I guess because of the word according to the Hebrew lexicon.
I’ve seen the attempts to try and make the case you’re attempting. Across the spectrum os scripture it just won’t work.
David,
I read your piece on Dt. 14. You said,
“Next time a drinker waves Deuteronomy 14:26 in your face, let everyone know that many authorities say shekar, the word for strong drink, can also refer to a nonalcoholic beverage.”
The operative word in your piece is “can.” Now I haven’t had time right now to follow your research to see if it is valid to say “can.” But why all the warnings about too much grape juice? Why forbid priests to drink grape juice? You are certainly entitled to your interpretation of the passages. but your interpretation certainly doesn’t carry the force o “the final word.”
Les
David B.
You also wrote in your paper:
““Not only the word yayin, but also shekar can refer to grape juice as well as to wine (cf. Deuteronomy 29:6…”
How do you conclude that shekar in Dt. 29 means grape juice? We agree (don’t we?) that shekar in Lev.
“And the LORD spoke to Aaron, saying, “Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations.
(Leviticus 10:8-9 ESV)”
…means something with alcohol. So what maks the Dt. passage mean non-alcoholic?
I had a Memphis Cop tell me that in all his years of police work, that everyone he pulled over for drunk driving always responded the same way. When asked how much they had to drink, they’d always say “2 beers.” Most people think that they’re drinking in moderation….and really, they’re more buzzed than they realize.
I will never understand any Believer, who drinks alcohol for fun. I’ve never seen alcohol do anything but bad. I do understand that some Christians do it to be accepted by the crowd…you know, drink at a party, or else you’ll look like a prude and wont fit in. OThers may do it, because they like getting high on it. But, that’s no excuse for doing something as foolish as drinking fermented wine, as we’re taught in Proverbs, and as we’re taught by everyday life.
I hope Believers will reconsider thier views about alcohol.
David
I remember this. One of the best videos portraying the sorrow and pain that can come from drunk driving. I am one who enjoys moderate use of alcoholic beverages. But, I will definitely be showing this to my teenage children. They need to see what the effects of alcohol abuse can be.
Powerful video. I like that it is not the typical 30 second public service spot, but a full out relentless message about the costs of drinking and driving.
I wish someone would make a video about all the bad things about alcohol…like the drunken Dad beating his wife and children….the teenage boys throwing up in some nasty toilet at some convenient store…mothers not taking care of thier children because they’ve been “drinking in moderation”…girls having sex with some ole boy they hardly know because they’re too tipsy to discern and make wise choices…a child with FAS(Fetal Alcohol Syndrone) because Mommy wanted to drink one glass of wine to look sophisticated before she even knew that she was pregnant…and the list could go on and on and on about the foolishness and bad consequences of alcohol….maybe it’d make some people think twice, or three times before hitting the hooch.
David
David, I agree. That would be powerful. Had I had someone following me around in HS and college, they would have plenty of footage of some of that, unfortunately. I lived much of it and only by God’s grace did I come out of that. In fact, my dad was an alcoholic and brought much heartache to our family for many years due to his excessive drinking. Thankfully he stopped drinking altogether some years before he became a Christian and had some very good years before his death.
Biff,
What about the screaming drunken wife attacking her totally sober husband with a butcher knife???? Or don’t things like that happen in Tennessee?
Jake,
That’s another excellent illustration of the bad consequences of alcohol.
David
It’s because of the stereotypes you use that makes people tune you out.
the stereotypes are true. I’ve seen them firsthand….seen them on the news….heard the family members who have suffered these things…
They are much, much too true.
David
It happened to Willie Nelson. I think the quote I read was, “As I was going out the screen door, and running down the road, I thought; ‘A man don’t have to put up with this.” 🙂
C. B..
You wrote, “Beverage alcohol is a drug. The use of beverage alcohol has brought much sorrow to many people.”
You are exactly right.
I like the way bass fishing pro Lendell Martin put it, “I’ve never seen anything good come out of a can of beer.”
May you all have a drug-free New Year.
David R. Brumbelow
Even though a lifelong Yankee, I grew up wanting to be a professional bass tournament fisherman. I had to give it up because I didn’t like grits or cornbread or moon pies. I’ve never heard of Lendell Martin but my boyhood hero was Roland Martin.
Bill Mac,
Check out:
http://www.flwoutdoors.com/community/profile/home.cfm?uid=24404
The Lendell Martin quote is from Baptist Press, and from “Ancient Wine and the Bible.”
David R. Brumbelow
And I thought that this was a “VERBOTEN” subject on here. Somebody change the rules again so they could promote an idealogical agenda? Or is is only those of us that promote responsible usage of beverage alcohol forbidden to bring it up?
Powerful video and I agree with it that we should not drive drunk and should also strive to drive safely.
I would love to see a video like this portraying the devastating effects of sin in peoples’ lives.
And furthermore…..do auto accidents occur among sober victims? We all know that the answer is yes. I’ve helped pull the dead and mangled bodies from the twisted metal and NOT A DROP OF ALCOHOL involved. So lets all jump on the band wagon and abolish anything but public transportation, no cars, nor motorcycles, no horses or buggys….someone might go to sleep frome boredom and fall from the saddle. THE ANSWER IS PROSECUTION of those caught operating a mode of transportation with a certain BAC…..oh I forgot it is already against the law. And for those of you who did not watch the whole vid….what about the joint the one guy had??? Huh, what about the pills shown, most likely downers??? All you prohibitionist types have is an agenda against alcohol and you will do whatever you have to do to accomplish it.
Jake, you said, “All you prohibitionist types have is an agenda against alcohol and you will do whatever you have to do to accomplish it.”
Yep.
Or, said in Cajun, “True dat.”
David
There ought to be a law against glutton SBC preachers too but to the shame of the American public there is not.
Jake,
If you’re referring to me, I’m not a glutton. Who are you talking about?
David
Biff,
Yes sir….I am referring to you. You are a glutton and a prevaricator. How much do you weigh and what is your height? From past debates, I suggest that your BMI would place you squarely in the category of a glutton. You twist the truth into what you want it to be not what it was meant to be. And that makes you a prevaricator.
Jake,
How tall I am, and how much I wiegh has nothing to do with being a glutton. A glutton is someone who lives an undisciplined life…living to eat, drink, and be merry….living life to the excess….
I try my best to not be a glutton.
David
Good video. Some years ago, I was in a traffic court in Indianapolis, under Judge John Christ (that really was his name). I’ll never forget what he said: “If anyone comes into my court and is convicted of drunk driving, he is going to spend time in jail. Period. Driving drunk is like pointing a pistol into a crowd, pulling the trigger, and saying “I hope I don’t hit anyone””.
Amen to that, and to his throwing drunk drivers in jail.
I won’t bore you with too many more ” War ” stories ; but, I’ve been close to alcohol – too much at one time – almost nothing anymore . Anyone can go themselves or take their teenagers at least for ” Ride Alongs ” with the local Rescue Squads . The police have a similar program but it can be not as active and insulting to many in this crowd. For alcohol related accidents Friday and Saturday nights are the busiest normally after 11: P.M. until the wee hours. The later the hour it seems the harder they hit. Or during the day Squads in larger cities run Routine Transports that take both husband and wife who have been cleaned up by their servants , tranquilised by a doctor and laid on separate beds awaiting the Squads arrival -alcoholics . Or any night of the week a Rescue call about a person whose has either beaten himself or someone in the family up. Blood and body waste all over the beds and floors and children , family members who have been covering this stuff up for ages and are embarrassed – AND who you will know them from school or church. All alcohol problems . I saw Kenny Callahan a Squad Member on a bad wreck reach into a lady’s throat and clear her airway and shove the oxygen hose and aspirator into her throat – thru the smashed teeth , jawbones, blood etc where a mask wouldn’t work – alcohol . I picked up someone who had smashed a tree and was unrecognizable and when we got the wallet out of his pants in the E.R. Room it was Kenny – dead of course . I saw a friend on a call who had come to my house on a call and I ended up living at the Squad every night in exchange for running calls after the volunteers went home. Rescue Squads can provide an escape or an activity for anyone in the family and teach valuable lessons. They stick together and have activities but this is no reason for the church to discourage participation . Off duty policemen volunteer their off hours there and are good instructors. After I got hired by an airline , single of course , I was often asked why I wasn’t chasing the Flight Attendants ; after all the LPR was there and the rooms paid for. LPR is short for Liquid Pants Remover. Too nasty to talk about – your daughters need to hear it anyway . My answer was , ” Been there – Done that “. Truth was mostly, that I needed to get away from motorcycles and into the airlines so bad that I made some promises . Oh ! Almost forgot , my uncle the West Point Graduate and decorated WW2 fighter pilot after he retired went to a southern town and became a hospital administrator. He drank too much all along and his body finally wouldn’t take it any longer and he stole from his job and was just let go. His parents who emigrated from Germany before the war were still alive. This stuff is a DISEASE – not necessarily a one time good time. Some of these War pilots came back from a “killing” mission only to see their name on the board to fly again the next day. They needed sleep quick after eating and this is how they did it. It’s not all just being a “dirty rotten drunk” – it’s a disease that crosses all boundaries . Seen people who loved to fight and were “good” at it provoke problems with unsuspecting drunks who were going to “defend” their girlfriend’s/ wife’s honor . A young drunk is going to get hurt – bad .
Drinking only feeds our total depravity!
Great quote, Ron.
David R. Brumbelow
Ron – “only ” is a bad word . It does lots of things. Pulled teeth and amputated limbs in the past.
Wait. What? You believe in total depravity?
Les,
Yes, I believe in total depravity, but I do not believe in total inability. In my depravity — I choose not to be as bad as I can be through drinking. But, it seems that those who believe in man’s inability are also unable to give up the Suds. 🙂
Ron, smiley face back.
Pleasure in moderation is not a sin Ron. Not all pleasure is wrong and to portray that it is is wrong. Good grief.
I wish you guys would be as concerned with spiritual abuse which is far more a problem than drunken Christians, as you are alcohol.
AMEN Debbie. And these guys are spiritual abusers.
After reading the defense of drinking over the last few years … It seems that 5 points and a 6 -pack … Go hand in hand.
Ron, it depends on what the 6 pack is. Bud? No thanks. Guinness? Yes.
Les,
Try the new Guinness Export it will make you throw rocks at standard Guinness.
Jake, thanks for the tip. We’ll probably get in trouble here for beer recommendations though.
Don’t worry about it. This is a once quarterly argument that we have here. No one’s mind has ever been changed one way or the other….somebody just gets a burr under their saddle and decides to canonize their own version of the truth. Usually the number of responses on this blog subject reaches 150 or more.
Quarterly?
We do this every fortnight, I think.
Jake, it is interesting to see though. I will say that being an ordained Baptist who attends a PCA church for years now, I still have at least some toes in the Baptist world. I have SBC family and many good friends in SBC churches. There are MANY Baptists who imbibe moderately on the sly. They remain pretty private about it out of fear of whatever they think will happen to them.
I remember one Baptist pastorate where a really good man of God was not only ostracized to some degree because he was employed by AB as a truck driver (though he didn’t drink) but of course couldn’t serve as a deacon. Now their prerogative for sure. But very hurtful to the man.
Definitely a hot topic.
Ah, fortnight. From where pints of ale abound, among Christians no less.
lol
Les,
I am familiar with ostracization. My wife and I were thought highly of in our congregation untill we opened a beer, wine and spirits store. Then the “powers that be” wanted to modify the church bylaws so that “people like them” could be removed from church membership. Now some of our “friends” have to slip around to visit us, even at home. Or more frequently, “come go to XXXX with us and we’ll have dinner and a movie” or a variation on that theme.
Jake Barker,
I want you to know this and I want you to believe it. I would visit you. I would not “slip around” to do it either.
On the other hand, you might not visit me. 🙂
CB,
Yep I believe you. If you came to visit, you would be offered coffee, ice tea (sweet if it is your poison) or a soda pop. I would, depending on the time of day, have a small glass of red wine or a beer (if ballgame time) followed by unsweetened ice tea. However if you were a recovering alcoholic ( and you say you never partook of alcohol) I would keep the bottle safely put away in the ‘fridge.
And yes, I would probably come and visit you. I might challenge you to a debate if you preached without Scriptural warrant to back up your words…..but visit you I would.
Ron Hale – I hope you don’t think I was defending alcohol use .
David,
You said: “How about, “Be sober” (1 Peter 5:8; and elsewhere). Sober is the Greek word “nepho” which literally means “wineless.”
David R. Brumbelow”
What is your source for the etymology of ???? (nepho)? Also, have you consulted BDAG for your strict interpretation of “sober?”
Joshua,
Brumbelow etal minds are made up and they absolutley refuse to be confused with the truth.
Joshua – while you fiddle around disecting the Scripture people are being molested by perveyors of alcohol with the ,” A little bit won’t hurt” and that molester will makes sure he brings that child to your church to hear your wisdom. Someone that is an alcoholic has to stop – period ; while others who see it your way still bring it into the house. The smell of booze forces a response. I have to think that your age along with growing up in a protected enviorment has given you warped ideas ; and, while avoiding sin is a solution – it just doesn’t work like that.
Jack,
Sir, you know nothing about me. Your comment about me being young and from a “protected environment” is ridiculous. I spent from teenage years to 23 filling my life with drugs and alcohol.
The rest of your comment is so incoherent I will refrain from responding.
Joshua – c b scott -If you spent that amount of time ” filling your life in drugs and alcohol ” doesn’t just the smell of liquor or the essence of a drug trigger an unwanted impulse ? If your talking cocoaine or methadone for a period of time then you know there are cookbooks that tell how to mix to get the desired result. Fathers who sexually abuse their children – you’ve heard of that right – they use alcohol in many cases to break inhibitions and provide themselves with an excuse. John Wylie picked up on what I was saying. c b scott you disappoint me . No drugs and I’m not over-medicated ; no alcohol but Joshua wants to say a little bit is o.k. while thousands suffer even with the smell. Joshua , I’ve picked up “alters” off the floor that was knocked down from a kid crawling around his room trying to find the door after he slit his wrists to ” drink his blood ” as it says somewhere in the Bible. What part of that don’t you or c b understand – and this person and his brother were zombies with stupid smiles and brains pickled long before this incident. No trap ! But to do what you say you have done with drugs and booze and not get knocked off your feet going into a room where it/they is being used is hard to fathom. What’s easy to understand is how , you think , you can “moderate it” Lets see the Bar Book or Drug Book for that , Sir !
Jack, I don’t know who you are, but I am one who drank heavily as a teen and in college and a few years after college. My father was a very bad drunk for many years.
I drink some beer (not much due to wanting to limit calorie intake), some wine, usually with a meal or special occasion, and some single malt scotch. Have done this for years.
Never have I had the smell trigger an unwanted impulse. I’m not even sure what that means. I don’t drink too much and thoroughly enjoy it.
I don’t know why that is a bad thing. Do soe abuse it? Sure, same as with Big Macs, sexual sin, etc.
Les – What you don’t know only effects you. Have you ever visited a “dry out ” medical facility. Lots of them and lots of people in them . Maybe you should talk with someone who has been to one and get an awakening.
Les – I forgot . You have never had the smell of liquor trigger an impulse because you have continued to have a glass under your nose. You have to stop first.
Jack,
You: “Have you ever visited a “dry out ” medical facility. Lots of them and lots of people in them.”
Yes and yes. As I said, my father was a drunk for many years. He was in and out of those facilities…and AA and etc. I’ve spent much time in and around those facilities. In addition, I have two sisters who were addicted to crack for years. They became clean and I went to many meetings with them.
I’ve spent a lot of time around people with alcohol and drug problems.
Just FYI.
Jack,
I’m really trying to take you seriously, but you’re making it difficult. How do you purport to know so much about me?
You said, “I forgot . You have never had the smell of liquor trigger an impulse because you have continued to have a glass under your nose. You have to stop first.”
Well, you’re wrong again. I stopped ANY alcohol consumption between 1982 and 1992. 10 years!!
Go figure. Still no impulses triggered.
Les – With all that experience , what in your mind does it take for a person to quit killing themselves ?
Jack, I don’t follow. What do you mean “killing themselves?” You mean me?
Right Jack. What are you talking about?
Brother, I love you and have a pathos for you relating to many things you share. We have been on these boards together for a long time, but I must confess, sometimes I read your comments and I can’t help but wonder if you are drunk, over medicated or both.
What you are saying here makes no sense.
While I wouldn’t want to speak for Jack I think I do understand what he’s talking about. He talking about the loss of inhibitions that alcohol brings for some people and the devastation that accompanies it. He’s talking about the stumbling block that someone exercising what they believe to be their liberty can be to those who used to be ensnared in alcohol. Jack, I understand what you’re saying.
I do believe that the Bible teaches moderation rather than abstinence. But I don’t want the stuff in my home, and I don’t want my daughters to have anything to do with it. It puts off the savor of death to me. There is a big difference between believing that the Bible teaches moderation in this matter and being pro alcohol.
c.b scott – What I;ve found is that people relating to a sordid past tend to reduce or embellish it. A fellow was going around SBC churches telling how when he lived in California he was “invited” by either the Crips or the Bloods and witnessed a “hit” and he was in such “danger” . He got a Love offering as he also said he had gotten free admission to a Bible school with this story. Guess Crips or Bloods didn’t fly airplanes or hear this guy run his mouth. How many working doctors or attorneys are members in your church ? or City , State or Federal drug enforcement people. They won’t be a part of some of this stuff. ” Don’t BS a BS’er “
Jack, I do agree with you there about people embellishing their past. I don’t know about the California guy who allegedly spoke to gangs, but I do know about a former Muslim who claimed he was trained as a jihadist as a kid to come kill Americans only for the truth to be that he moved to the U.S. when he was around 3 years old. (Which he recently admitted.)
Anyway…
Jack Wolford,
Yeah, I know those things. That may be why I play a lot of things down from my own history. That’s also why I know you are hurting sometimes.
Look Jack, I apologize for poppin’ you like that. I was off base. I know you have been around the horn a few times. I know you have seen a lot of stuff. I know you say some things from painful experiences from the past. I’m sorry Jack. I was off base and I stand down on my insult to you.
“Quarterly?
We do this every fortnight, I think”
I bet…..(uh oh…gambling AND alcohol) that alcohol is mentioned in one form or another about every 3rd blog post.
Lydia,
Maybe so. And maybe the reason is that it is such a problem in our culture and it is growing constantly.
Did you watch the video? I just ask people to watch the video and think about it.
I think the use of beverage alcohol is far too costly for it not to be addressed and often. I realize the same arguments are trotted out continuously. Nonetheless, looking at the effects of the use of beverage alcohol every day, makes me strongly inclined to say something about it.
Of course, at some point in each week of my life, I say something to someone locally about child abuse also. Often I say it to someone who has been using beverage alcohol. Maybe that is why I am so against the use of beverage alcohol. Maybe that is why I speak out against it so often.
Sorry CB, I meant that tongue in cheek. It was brought up a few threads ago and was not even the topic. (wink)
I was raised by a long line of Baptist teetotalers from my mom’s side who thought one drop was a ticket to drunkeness and debauchery. My dad had an occasional drink at his club but never at home. To my knowledge he was never drunk once in his life. It would be unseemly to have too much. A lack of self control which was his hallmark.
So, I see both sides. All I know is that the teetotaling side made me want to check it out, though.
Lydia,
I take no offense at you. I know you were raggin’ on me. I also know you are tougher than most so I used your comment as an opportunity to make a point. I hope you take no offense at me for that.
One thing you said here though is something I think about in this on going debate about the use of beverage alcohol among Christians today.
You stated, “All I know is that the teetotaling side made me want to check it out, though.”
Lydia, I think that is a true statement. First let me say, I do not think we should tell children to drink at home so they will learn how to handle it. I think that is a mistake. There is some research out there about children from such permissive environments having a tendency toward alcoholism, but I do not have it at hand.
No, I do not believe we should teach our children to drink responsibly or anything like that. I think that kind of thinking is a major snare of the Trapper. I think it makes hell happy.
Yet, I do believe that the the “tried and failed” method of just yelling at kids and telling them that God will cast them into the deeper parts of hell if they ever “touch beer and whiskey” simple does not help.
(Have you ever noticed how some sisters who really hate beverage alcohol say the word “whisskeeeey? It makes you either want to drink it or shoot it.) 🙂
I think we need to be willing to truly educate them as to the problems of the use of beverage alcohol. I think we need to introduce them to some messed up people. Of course, we don’t have to go beyond our relatives sometimes to do that do we?
Yet, a lot of Christians do not allow their children to ever be around their relatives who have lost so much to the use of beverage alcohol. We tell our kids we are better than our alcoholic brother, sister or dad or mother. We don’t allow our children to visit them or have them in our homes. I believe we make a mistake when we do that.
I think we should be honest with the Word of God in our teaching of our children and I think we should allow them to be around family members with the problems inherent to the use of beverage alcohol. (naturally we must be careful)
I think we should take them to see a drunk tank on Friday night after the “working drunks” have gotten paid and spent all the “milk money” on beverage alcohol and are now locked up on a drunk charge. Hospital ER visits on a weekend help make the case also.
I could go on and on with this, but I think you get my point. I think we do our kids an injustice when we do not teach them about beverage alcohol with a common sense approach. Naturally all such teaching must be from the perspective of a biblical worldview.
Those are some of my thoughts, my opinions.
“I could go on and on with this, but I think you get my point. I think we do our kids an injustice when we do not teach them about beverage alcohol with a common sense approach. Naturally all such teaching must be from the perspective of a biblical worldview.”
I totally agree with this except for the “biblical worldview” part which I have often wondered about since the bible tells us what the “worldview” is going to be and it ain’t biblical! :o) Yet, we are to live here and be engaged in every day life as believers…so I suppose that is what biblical worldview means. :o)
To take any mind altering substance that is not prescribed for survival is the real issue. How can the Holy Spirit guide and convict in such an environment?
However, I have often wondered how a missionary in France would approach this issue. :o)
“No, I do not believe we should teach our children to drink responsibly or anything like that. I think that kind of thinking is a major snare of the Trapper. I think it makes hell happy.”
one more thing, this is the same thinking, in some ways, that our schools take on about having sex responsibly.
To teach them about birth control, condoms, etc. It has been proven to not work well at all. The underlying thought is that they are going to have sex anyway.
We should never approach anything like this in such a manner. I would never presume my child is going to drink or have sex before marriage. Yet, the child should be fully informed at the proper time as you describe above with the encouragement that they are too smart for such things and you expect them to make wise choices in the future. Then read them Rev 21 every night until they leave home. :o)
Well, if’n it’s alright to drank corn liquor, then I’d better get Granpappy to fire up the still, agin. He’d done quit squeezin’ the corn since he’d started to Church and was tryin’ to get right. But, if’n it’s alright to drink, then he can fire up that still agin without feelin’ guilty about it. And, if’n moonshine was given to us by the Lord so that we could have a good, high time, then maybe we could start havin’ church fellowships with moonshine? maybe we could even serve a little moonshine before church starts, since some of yall say that the Lord gave it to us so that we can rejoice more? You know, pre-worship cocktails, I believe you city fellers call it.
Anyway, Granpappy…hey Granpappy….get that still goin’ agin. We can drink agin’….we can drink agin’!!! Wooooo hoooooo!
David
I got some corn liquor in my store. Made in Gattlinburg. Good stuff…..it’s legal….taxes paid on it. Mighty mighty pleasin’ Pappys corn squeezins!! Moonshine apple pie, marinated cherries and marinated strawberries……all good.
Jake,
I had family that made the real stuff…illegally. I had more family that drank it on a regular basis.
David
Were you a rodeo clown in TN because you make a great blog clown.
Mark,
There’s no need to act ugly about it.
God bless you.
David
Now you’re calling me ugly? lol You can make fun or whatever you call it just above my comment, but my blog clown comment is too much?
Double standard much?
God bless!
Mark,
YOu’ve got issues, Dude. You know you where you trying to ridicule me…put me down…calling me a clown. I wasnt calling you any names. So, why’d you go there? You know what you were doing.
David
“The vine bears three kinds of grapes: the first of pleasure, the second of intoxication, the third of disgust.”
Diogenes
David Brumbelow,
Still waiting for your source regarding the etymology of nepho and if you ever consulted BDAG for the word.
Joshua, i am too am interested. Because exegeting that verse (1 Peter 5:8) in the manner that David Brumbelow is, that would mean that would not only have to ‘abstain from wine’ continuously, but we would also have to ‘stay awake'(be vigilant) continuously. Using then that proof texting, I could therefore preach that if you sleep at all, you are in sin.
But, if I study the verse and understand that Peter is speaking figuratively not physically, then it makes sense. If not, then we should stay away from the lion cage at the zoo.
prchrbill,
Are you serious in what you are stating about “be vigilant” in 1 Peter 5:8? If so how would you exegete 1 Peter 1:13-15 or 4:7? How would you exegete Eph. 5:15-16 or Col. 4:5-6 and several other passages related to the continued watchfulness mandated for believers.
My intent here was not to “slice and dice” the Scripture, but I think maybe you are mistaken about the nature of the biblical mandate for our continual vigilance in all things. Our continued vigilance goes far beyond issues pertaining to the use of beverage alcohol.
cb scott,
I was simpy using the literal meaning of the greek words like our good friend was. I was also showing the error of simplistic interpretation of passages when you cannot carry onward with the same type of interpretation in the rest of the verse that you started with.
If I take the command ‘be sober’ as the literal meaning ‘abstain from wine’ and not the figurative definition, I must also be consistent in applying the same type of hermeneutic to the rest of the verse. Therefore, ‘be vigilant’ means literally to ‘stay awake’, therefore by following the rule established for the first part of the command, i must now stop sleeping. It also means that the figurative language Peter continues to use, cannot continue to be seen as figurative, but that our adversary is an actual lion.
The question now goes back into your court to prove that Peter was speaking literally about the use of wine, or he was speaking figuratively about ‘being discreet, watching’.
The other verses you have posted are not in play, since we have a dear brother claiming 1 Peter 5:8 tells us to abstain from drinking wine. I am pointing out that this type of interpretation of this verse is quite simplistic and an illogical way to read and understand scripture.
I will look your other verses now, but please answer my objections to the misinterpretation of 1 Peter 5:8.
I await your good and thoughtful answer.
prchrbill,
If you notice, my arguments have been from a biblical, whole counsel of God, scriptural commonsense approach.
My engagement of your comment was to question you of the nature of your statement about continual vigilance. You have answered that question.
prchrbill, did you view the video?
cb scott,
1st, your ‘whole counsel’ statement however is tainted with the presupposition that drinking alcohol according to the scripture is wrong, when it has been shown on this comment list that the Bible speaks clearly of wine/strong drink being partaken and commended by scripture in certain ways. Everytime you see the word ‘sober’ you revert back to what the word ‘could mean’ but however, the context does not necessarily, and in fact I would say it does not support the idea of not partaking in alcoholic beverages. Taking the apostles ‘figurative phrase use’ an defining it by one word is a common mistake that folks make who rely on Strongs and/or a Lexicon that only gives ‘possible definitions’ but does not define the use of the word based on the phrase it is used in. I think I proved that point by showing how ‘be sober’ is wrongly interpreted when you follow the logic outward.
I, however, do agree that the Scriptures do teach that drunkenness is a sin. I have not made any claim otherwise. However, the idea of ‘complete abstinence of alcohol’ as being taught by the scripture is disproved by Paul’s own words to Timothy.
Wine is a gift, but gifts can be misused and it becomes sinful when used beyond or outside of its purpose.
Sex is a gift, but sex outside of marriage is misusing the gift and it is sinful.
No, I did not watch the video. I do not need a video to tell me the perils and evils of drunkenness. I have seen it affect my own family with divorce, my cousin almost going to jail. But those evils didn’t come from a bottle, they came from the man/woman that abused what is a gift.
prchrbill,
I think you are superimposing something of your own making over what I have stated here. I have not once used the word or argued the meaning of the word “sober.”
We are always to take the whole counsel of God into consideration when we consider various things in our lives, beverage alcohol being only one of them.
I have not made any effort to parse Scripture here. I did ask you if you were serious about your comment regarding “vigilance.”
That was a fair question. You gave a fair answer. Had we been addressing any topic whatsoever and you had made the same statement relating to the mandate of “continual vigilance” I would have asked the same question.
Frankly, I have never used 1 Peter 5:8 as an argument related to the use of beverage alcohol. I don’t think the context there permits a strong argument against the use of beverage alcohol. I do think that the context related to giving continual and due vigilance to how one lives out his life for Satan seeks and takes every opportunity to destroy us.
prchrbill, if you have those situations you speak of (and I am sure you do, I don’t doubt you) I would think you have a similar position as do I about the use of beverage alcohol.
Don’t blame C. B. for what I said. I’m the one who said Scripture commands us to be sober. Interesting that some would say sober has nothing to do with whether you take recreational drugs by drinking alcohol. Sober means more than not drinking, but it surely includes not drinking.
I only said this in response to the contention by one that the Bible never says we should abstain for the recreational drug of beverage alcohol. I believe the Bible both directly, and through biblical principles, commands us to abstain.
Biblical examples on “Sober:”
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:6-8
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Where did I get that sober (nepho) means “wineless?” Among others, John MacArthur. In his commentary on 1 Timothy he says, “A leader in God’s church must also be temperate. Nephalios (temperate) literally means ‘wineless,’ or ‘unmixed with wine,’”
John MacArthur later says,
“A man who is a drinker has no place in the ministry. He is a poor example, and will surely be the cause of serious sin and disaster in the lives of others who follow his example as drinkers, justifying their indulgence because of their leader.”
David R. Brumbelow
Now that we know what John MacArthur says, can you actually address the context of 1 Peter 5:8? Since you are so fond of the semantic range of the words for wine, surely you have checked out the same for the words for sober.
David,
“sober” surely may mean literally “not intoxicated” among other things. I don’t think anyone disputes that as a definition. It is interesting, though, that he would write,
i.i. “he must be sober…not a drunkard…”
Why would he say in essence, don’t drink…twice?
But in fact that is not what he said. The ESV is right when it translates “sober-minded.” Then, not a drunkard? Now by no definition I know of would “not a drunkard” mean “not a drinker.” He could have said that. But he said that an elder should not be one who is characterized by drunkenness. And that fits perfectly with other scriptures. Moderation.
I just want to say that the other “Les” is not me. Happy new year.
Les,
🙂
David
Les Puryear that is….
David 🙂
Right. I’m “that” Les.
😉