Editor’s Note: Rick Patrick is a frequent commenter here. He sometimes commits the unpardonable sin of disagreeing with me, but he always writes well and makes a clear point. I’m dying to see which of his five points is going to get the most discussion here today.
These random opinions jump around. Fortunately, like the best things in life, they are free. If you don’t like one of them, don’t buy it. Or better yet, tell me why I’m an idiot, or as we say in our Christian vocabulary, “Share the truth in love.”
1. Church hoppers should be forced to wear a “Scarlet H” on their clothing.
Yes, occasionally there are grounds for a Christian to switch churches locally. I’ve done it once myself. But usually they are hurting their own process of Christian maturity by blowing a petty matter out of proportion. It’s not good for them personally. It’s not good for area churches as it only fosters a sense of competition. And it’s not good for pastors who invest themselves in equipping believers as it drains them emotionally.
2. The NFL rule change has eliminated the kickoff return from football.
Granted, I only watched one preseason game, but this is unbearable. Kicking from the 35 results in touchbacks 90% of the time. As boring and perfunctory a routine as an intentional walk in baseball, if this is going to be the rule, just give them the ball on the 20 yard line and cut out the commercial.
3. Rick Perry is going to be the next President of the United States.
His message is uncompromising, which is another way of saying that he possesses the courage of his convictions. I will watch with great interest to see if conservative Christian voters, who were less than energized by the candidacy of John McCain, will once again step up and be willing to confront the secular culture of the blue states rather than continuing the unwise tactic of “accommodationism.” Surely we don’t have to become lost liberals in order to reach lost liberals. For all the talk about Christians needing to stay out of politics, Michele Bachmann has done more to bring to Secular America a clear and balanced perspective of wifely submission than all the TV preachers and seminary professors put together! What an opportunity to speak to the culture and become the salt and light Scripture encourages us to be.
4. Local Baptist associations should reconsider their office buildings.
When I’ve traveled internationally to Mexico and Ukraine, the IMB missionary had living quarters for his family, but no other office headquarters. He went from church to church supporting the work, meeting with pastors and equipping the saints. If the average association is comprised of thirty or forty churches, that’s at least 200,000 square feet of building space. Find an office for the associational missionary there. Why purchase even more real estate and force the association’s budget to pay overhead like utilities and maintenance? Less money to power companies means more to missions.
5. NAMB is once again creating bureaucracy and not eliminating it.
When I read about Al Gilbert’s new “Love Loud” post, all I could think about was Ken Hemphill’s “Empowering Kingdom Growth” job and Bobby Welch’s “Global Evangelical Relations” organization. I guess streamlining NAMB was so 2010. Does it interest no one else that every SBC post (Page, Eliff, Gilbert, etc.) now goes to someone who served on the Committee That Must Not Be Named With the Box That Must Not Be Opened?
1. A missing element from the Church Hoppers note is that a constantly shifting church membership is one from which pastors are hard pressed to train and raise up new leaders. 2. Peter King addressed the touchback rule in his column at SI.com. The Steelers kicked off from the 30 and were told to cease and desist. The NFL says the rule is about safety, not competition. Don’t expect them to back down. 3. What’s the Rick Perry/Michele Bachmann connection? That’s a confusing paragraph. 4. Amen and Amen. We use far more space than is needed. Even in situations where… Read more »
Jeremy, 1. I couldn’t agree more. 2. Yes, it’s boring but here to stay. And thanks for mentioning SI’s Peter King, whose subheading “Ten Things I Think I Think” I have shamelessly adapted for my title. 3. Sorry for the confusion. I know it’s way too early, but I’m assuming a Perry / Bachmann ticket. 4. It could save some money. 5. It just seems like the GCR Task Force members are all getting appointed or elected to SBC leadership positions. The box is a reference to that committee’s proceedings, sealed from reporters, historians and curious pastors until the year… Read more »
On point 4: That’s actually what we do: part-time DOM uses an office in a local church when he needs one.
Didn’t someone write a song about church hoppers a few years back?
I always try singing them THIS song, but they just walk away like Megan Fox… http://youtu.be/MWXySUb02gs
As to church hopping, I think whatever attitude we take requires that we use the same standard when someone leaves another church and comes to mine as to when someone leaves my church and goes to another.
If I treat someone leaving another church and coming to ours as a victory, and then act like someone hopping to another church is some kind of violation of God’s Word, I lack integrity.
I think that is important. I like the idea of the Scarlet H, though.
There you go again, looking at both sides of an issue and treating all people with fairness. I know you didn’t learn that lesson from observing the New York Yankees organization!
Liberal.
I will watch with great interest to see if conservative Christian voters, who were less than energized by the candidacy of John McCain, will once again step up and be willing to confront the secular culture of the blue states rather than continuing the unwise tactic of “accommodationism.” I would be willing to bet a Hardee’s thickburger that no ony will they not be willing to vote the way Christians should vote, but that they will be even more vocal about how it should be ok for Christians to vote for pro-baby slaughter/pro-“gay rights” (snicker)/anti-freedom of speech candidates and how… Read more »
Joe,
You may be right. It sure seems that Christians are moving away from strong conservative stands, which grieves me.
Now, about this Robin the Boy Wonder avatar…why not Batman? I mean, who makes the sidekick their icon for online chats?
Oh, I did that on a website called HeroMachine. I always liked the Robin of Earth 2 (pre-Crisis, not that that will mean much if you’re not a comic book geek) and created one based on that character. I think the reason they movie away from strong conservative stands is that the culture is so anti-God and therefore anti-conservative that it’s just easier for them to get along and not be harassed. I mean, I totally get the fact that overturning Roe v. Wade will not get more people into heaven and I also understand that most ‘Pubs really don’t… Read more »
Permit me to be the counterpoint here. I am a pretty unapologetic political conservative, but what I see a real danger in confusing gospel work with political work.
It is unfair to assume that everyone who is reticent to discuss politics has necessarily embraced liberalism or lost conviction.
1) I believe that conservative principles are best for the USA.
2) I believe that the hope of the gospel is not linked to USA politics, or even to our restoration.
Dave Miller:
Thanks for saying :”It is unfair to assume that everyone who is reticent to discuss politics has necessarily embraced liberalism or lost conviction.”
I think sometimes people do want to discuss politics because it can become heated so quick.
Dave,
I was also bothered by that point. I am political conservative as well, but would want to qualify that not all political liberals are lost, just as not all political conservatives are saved. Can a person not be a genuine, regenerate Christian and believe in big government and universal healthcare?
For the record, I do not believe that all political liberals are lost or that all political conservatives are saved. For example, and only God knows, but I believe Jimmy Carter, a political liberal, is saved. I also believe Mitt Romney, a political conservative, is lost. Again, only God knows.
1. I say we put the H on the church hoppers the minute pastors of churches that grow as a result of said hopping stop feeling good about the growth. If the hoppers deserve an “H” then the misleading church stats deserve an “F” and most pastors have earned an inflated E! 2. This is wrong! 3. As for Rick Perry- he will NOT be elected. Right or wrong the dude comes off as George Bush 2.0 (to Michelle Bachmann’s Sarah Palin 2.0). Besides, anyone who is tied to people like John Haggee can’t get elected. And quite honestly I… Read more »
I’m not ready to throw my full weight behind Gov Perry, but I think that your dismissal of him may be premature as well.
Mr. Patrick:
You are hereby informed that the GCRTF also voted to limit SBC blogging and tweeting to members of the GCR. You and Mr. Miller are hereby ordered to cease and desist.
OK, but I blog and was not a part of the GCIRJATF. I skate by on the technicality that I was not in the US when the vote took place.
Eileen, brilliant comment.
Jeremy, I may be behind the times, but I need a translation of GCIRJATF.
It’s jeremy-speak for whatever that alphabet-soup of an acrostic is supposed to mean, that thing referring to some commission report from the SBC last year.
I promise to be a faithful comrade and comply with the cease and desist order from the central committee. For Sale: One slightly used housecoat worn gently in the basement while blogging.
Can I have your bunny slippers?
The Presidential team of Michele Bachmann/Rick Perry will run a very spirited and competitive campaign against President Obama and Vice-President Biden but will lose in a close race.
I believe you’re right because so many Christians are so tired of the “mean spirited culture war” that they don’t vote the way Christians are supposed to vote.
Tom,
We agree on the ticket, but perhaps not the order. Do you have Bachmann for Prez and Perry for Vice?
Patrick:
Yes, the order I typed is what I meant. Would you not be willing for the order to be that way and if so why not?
I just see the ticket reversed but could easily support her for President and Perry for Vice.
In fact, opposite Obama and Biden I would have to give serious thought to a Lady Gaga and Charlie Sheen ticket, the logic being that they wouldn’t get anything done and it is better to do nothing than to make things worse.
Rick,
That made me laugh out loud. Trying to see what a Gaga-Sheen campaign poster would look like…
I might go Sheen, Gaga -Winning!
Hate to be contrary (no, not really 🙂 ), but if Michele Bachmann is on the ticket, particularly as the Presidential candidate, then President Obama will win re-election in a landslide. It will not be pretty or close. As a conservative, this ticket excites me about as much as Dole/Kemp in 1996. Right now, there are no major Republican candidates who are conservative AND electable, IMO. But, then again, what do I know? I’m still shocked that Americans elected the current President.
I would have bet my last dollar that Joe would be the first commenter after my comment but us good old SB do not bet.
I only commented as to what I believe will happen–I prognosticated.
I also pronosticated and gave my reasons why I expect that to happen–that instead of voting the way Christians are supposed to vote, many who claim to be Christians are willing to compromise and vote for something like Obama.
4. No idea why our association or two others I have been in need a building.
Our association can barely afford a DOM.
Our association can’t afford a DOM at all. Nor can any of the others in our convention.
Aaron, I agree 100% A generation (or two) ago most associations that I know of did not have any full time employees. No DOM, no secretary, no employees at all. They elected an association president and secretary from among their member churches and all association work was done on a voluntarily bases. (What a concept!) The only thing the association paid for were any expenses associated with fulfilling the duties of the office you were elected. No buildings and no salaries equaled much more money for joint local missions work, and that’s where the local association concentrated it’s efforts on… Read more »
1. Is this a surprise when a large head-count is the measure of effectiveness in most all things Baptist and, irregardless of the complaints lodged over the matter, take a close look at the models held up at conferences, clinics, programs, etc. all accross SBC life. Pastors are taught, encouraged, and measured by their role-models and peers largely on the basis of head-counts. So…in turn, we are fearful of calling a halt to church “hoping” (or in Baptist parlance, “tranfer of membership”). I wonder if this is more of a “ministerial” problem than a lay-person problem. 2. Is this a… Read more »
“His message is uncompromising, which is another way of saying that he possesses the courage of his convictions.” Well if I can’t argue theology in this post, I’ll go ahead and get myself into hot water over politics. 🙂 I want to like Perry, but he has just about lost me. His prayer rally could have been good, but he really should have taken a back seat once he organized it. As it is, to me it looks too much like his real interest was launching his political campaign by winning over evangelicals. The timing was too close to draw… Read more »
1. Church hoppers should be forced to wear a “Scarlet H” on their clothing. wm: No tags are needed. Pastors can spot them…and are happy to have them hop on in. 3. Rick Perry is going to be the next President of the United States. wm: Not sure I like this wild conjecture. He has proven that he knows how to play evangelicals who haven’t learned not to be easily played by politicians. Bachmann has effectively dodged a straight answer on submission, which, according to her is merely ‘respect.’ Expect her to be pressed on this one. 4. Local Baptist… Read more »
You guys live in a different world than I do. Our DOM covers a territory from Minnesota to Missouri and about 100 miles in from the Nebraska/SD border. We can’t even pay him without the help of NAMB. He has no office, no secretary. He had a car. He has a computer. He has a house.
I acknowledge the vast difference here. I’ve always been in deep south associations.
We lost all of our DOMs in the Dakotas over the last couple of years. The GCR changes required all of those NAMB guys to become church planter/catalysts and set some absurd benchmarks for the first year. It hasn’t been pretty on that front up here.
Wow. First I’ve heard of that. Would love details. Did I understand right that there is not a SINGLE Director of Missions in the Dakotas? Or were you using hyperbole?
No hyperbole at all. We explained to all of our associations that there is no longer a way to use any NAMB funded people as Associational Missionaries early this year. All of our associations are now using a “moderator-led” model except one that has their old Assoc. Missionary staying on as a volunteer. In fact, we only have one NAMB missionary in the Dakotas at this point who is not a part of the state staff. He is a church planter at heart, so this wasn’t a big shock or change for him as much as it was for some… Read more »
Same in Iowa. It’s a job title and job description change.
I have two comments on each of your points: “in jest” and “seriously” … 1.“in jest” … if it wasn’t for counting the Hoppers, reported church membership would only be 50% or so for all SBC churches; putting an “H” on their shirts would cause too much competition between churches to get the Hoppers on their ledgers “seriously” … Southern Baptists have a lot to be hopping about today to cause them to go shopping … even into other denominational markets 2.“in jest” … I’m sure that the rule change has something to do with being culturally-relevant … seems like… Read more »
Well here’s my two cents worth
1.) I don’t chase after disgruntled visitors from other churches at all. I used to do so, but I learned it’s a waste of time
2.) Amen to that!
3.) I truly hope you’re right brother. He would make a great president.
4.) I’ve always thought SBs build and maintain too many buildings.
5.) I believe the only paid employees on the SB payroll should be missionaries and the payroll clerks necessary to write the checks. It’s amazing to me how many state employees we have in our state convention.
I remember when I first started in Cedar Rapids, we received an infusion of several families from a local Bible church who came because I “preached the word” and their pastor no longer did. A couple of years later, I had stopped preaching the Word and they had to find another church.
I learned a lot from that.
My people get mad at me because every time we get a visitor from another church, I tell them they need to stay where they are.
As for the five things, I think I will just start by chiming in on number 3. Don’t folks remember that Perry was part of Al Gore’s campaign a few years back? He is worse than Bush 2.0, he is more like Bush 3.0. The elder bush was a “pretend conservative” as well after he joined in with Reagan. And the younger Bush managed to spend more and grow government more than anybody who preceded him ever dreamed (hardly conservative). If he hadn’t been followed by such a free-spender in Obama, his records might have stood for a little longer.… Read more »
On the points: 1. If we would focus our efforts on reaching the lost and not build fancy buildings and run special programs designed to attract disgruntled people from other churches, there would be less church-hopping. Also, if there was less pastor-hopping, that would likely help as well. 2. Haven’t seen a pre-season game and didn’t realize they had changed the kickoff. They’ll never drop the commercial: a touchdown results in 3 advertising spots. 1: after the TD; 2:after the PAT; 3: after the kickoff. The money wins out over anything. Safety? it’s related to the rising tide of injury… Read more »