Editor’s Note: Rick Patrick is a frequent commenter here. He sometimes commits the unpardonable sin of disagreeing with me, but he always writes well and makes a clear point. I’m dying to see which of his five points is going to get the most discussion here today.
These random opinions jump around. Fortunately, like the best things in life, they are free. If you don’t like one of them, don’t buy it. Or better yet, tell me why I’m an idiot, or as we say in our Christian vocabulary, “Share the truth in love.”
1. Church hoppers should be forced to wear a “Scarlet H” on their clothing.
Yes, occasionally there are grounds for a Christian to switch churches locally. I’ve done it once myself. But usually they are hurting their own process of Christian maturity by blowing a petty matter out of proportion. It’s not good for them personally. It’s not good for area churches as it only fosters a sense of competition. And it’s not good for pastors who invest themselves in equipping believers as it drains them emotionally.
2. The NFL rule change has eliminated the kickoff return from football.
Granted, I only watched one preseason game, but this is unbearable. Kicking from the 35 results in touchbacks 90% of the time. As boring and perfunctory a routine as an intentional walk in baseball, if this is going to be the rule, just give them the ball on the 20 yard line and cut out the commercial.
3. Rick Perry is going to be the next President of the United States.
His message is uncompromising, which is another way of saying that he possesses the courage of his convictions. I will watch with great interest to see if conservative Christian voters, who were less than energized by the candidacy of John McCain, will once again step up and be willing to confront the secular culture of the blue states rather than continuing the unwise tactic of “accommodationism.” Surely we don’t have to become lost liberals in order to reach lost liberals. For all the talk about Christians needing to stay out of politics, Michele Bachmann has done more to bring to Secular America a clear and balanced perspective of wifely submission than all the TV preachers and seminary professors put together! What an opportunity to speak to the culture and become the salt and light Scripture encourages us to be.
4. Local Baptist associations should reconsider their office buildings.
When I’ve traveled internationally to Mexico and Ukraine, the IMB missionary had living quarters for his family, but no other office headquarters. He went from church to church supporting the work, meeting with pastors and equipping the saints. If the average association is comprised of thirty or forty churches, that’s at least 200,000 square feet of building space. Find an office for the associational missionary there. Why purchase even more real estate and force the association’s budget to pay overhead like utilities and maintenance? Less money to power companies means more to missions.
5. NAMB is once again creating bureaucracy and not eliminating it.
When I read about Al Gilbert’s new “Love Loud” post, all I could think about was Ken Hemphill’s “Empowering Kingdom Growth” job and Bobby Welch’s “Global Evangelical Relations” organization. I guess streamlining NAMB was so 2010. Does it interest no one else that every SBC post (Page, Eliff, Gilbert, etc.) now goes to someone who served on the Committee That Must Not Be Named With the Box That Must Not Be Opened?
1. A missing element from the Church Hoppers note is that a constantly shifting church membership is one from which pastors are hard pressed to train and raise up new leaders.
2. Peter King addressed the touchback rule in his column at SI.com. The Steelers kicked off from the 30 and were told to cease and desist. The NFL says the rule is about safety, not competition. Don’t expect them to back down.
3. What’s the Rick Perry/Michele Bachmann connection? That’s a confusing paragraph.
4. Amen and Amen. We use far more space than is needed. Even in situations where the buildings are used often, offices include enormous hallways and cavernous meeting rooms. Eliminate some chaff, folks.
5. What is the committee that shall not be named and what’s up with this box thing?
Jeremy,
1. I couldn’t agree more.
2. Yes, it’s boring but here to stay. And thanks for mentioning SI’s Peter King, whose subheading “Ten Things I Think I Think” I have shamelessly adapted for my title.
3. Sorry for the confusion. I know it’s way too early, but I’m assuming a Perry / Bachmann ticket.
4. It could save some money.
5. It just seems like the GCR Task Force members are all getting appointed or elected to SBC leadership positions. The box is a reference to that committee’s proceedings, sealed from reporters, historians and curious pastors until the year 2025.
On point 4: That’s actually what we do: part-time DOM uses an office in a local church when he needs one.
Didn’t someone write a song about church hoppers a few years back?
I always try singing them THIS song, but they just walk away like Megan Fox… http://youtu.be/MWXySUb02gs
As to church hopping, I think whatever attitude we take requires that we use the same standard when someone leaves another church and comes to mine as to when someone leaves my church and goes to another.
If I treat someone leaving another church and coming to ours as a victory, and then act like someone hopping to another church is some kind of violation of God’s Word, I lack integrity.
I think that is important. I like the idea of the Scarlet H, though.
There you go again, looking at both sides of an issue and treating all people with fairness. I know you didn’t learn that lesson from observing the New York Yankees organization!
Liberal.
I will watch with great interest to see if conservative Christian voters, who were less than energized by the candidacy of John McCain, will once again step up and be willing to confront the secular culture of the blue states rather than continuing the unwise tactic of “accommodationism.”
I would be willing to bet a Hardee’s thickburger that no ony will they not be willing to vote the way Christians should vote, but that they will be even more vocal about how it should be ok for Christians to vote for pro-baby slaughter/pro-“gay rights” (snicker)/anti-freedom of speech candidates and how awful it is that those mean old corporations are making profits. I would say if anything, that crowd has become more acomodationist over the past 2-3 years.
Joe,
You may be right. It sure seems that Christians are moving away from strong conservative stands, which grieves me.
Now, about this Robin the Boy Wonder avatar…why not Batman? I mean, who makes the sidekick their icon for online chats?
Oh, I did that on a website called HeroMachine. I always liked the Robin of Earth 2 (pre-Crisis, not that that will mean much if you’re not a comic book geek) and created one based on that character.
I think the reason they movie away from strong conservative stands is that the culture is so anti-God and therefore anti-conservative that it’s just easier for them to get along and not be harassed. I mean, I totally get the fact that overturning Roe v. Wade will not get more people into heaven and I also understand that most ‘Pubs really don’t care much nor will they do much about making abortion illegal, but how it makes NO sense to vote for a candidate who openly says “I will oppose any restrictions of any kind on a woman’s right to choose”.
Permit me to be the counterpoint here. I am a pretty unapologetic political conservative, but what I see a real danger in confusing gospel work with political work.
It is unfair to assume that everyone who is reticent to discuss politics has necessarily embraced liberalism or lost conviction.
1) I believe that conservative principles are best for the USA.
2) I believe that the hope of the gospel is not linked to USA politics, or even to our restoration.
Dave Miller:
Thanks for saying :”It is unfair to assume that everyone who is reticent to discuss politics has necessarily embraced liberalism or lost conviction.”
I think sometimes people do want to discuss politics because it can become heated so quick.
Dave,
I was also bothered by that point. I am political conservative as well, but would want to qualify that not all political liberals are lost, just as not all political conservatives are saved. Can a person not be a genuine, regenerate Christian and believe in big government and universal healthcare?
For the record, I do not believe that all political liberals are lost or that all political conservatives are saved. For example, and only God knows, but I believe Jimmy Carter, a political liberal, is saved. I also believe Mitt Romney, a political conservative, is lost. Again, only God knows.
1. I say we put the H on the church hoppers the minute pastors of churches that grow as a result of said hopping stop feeling good about the growth. If the hoppers deserve an “H” then the misleading church stats deserve an “F” and most pastors have earned an inflated E!
2. This is wrong!
3. As for Rick Perry- he will NOT be elected. Right or wrong the dude comes off as George Bush 2.0 (to Michelle Bachmann’s Sarah Palin 2.0). Besides, anyone who is tied to people like John Haggee can’t get elected. And quite honestly I can’t say that bothers me much. Hagee is an extremist. And while I consider John Haggee a brother in the faith I most certainly wouldn’t want someone with his political views running this country.
Unfortunately the Republicans will snatch defeat out of the hands of what should be a sure victory because of an unbelievable lack of credible and energizing leadership. Find one person under the age of 40 (and not from Texas) who can get excited about any of these Republican candidates.
4. Exactly spot on!!!
5.
I’m not ready to throw my full weight behind Gov Perry, but I think that your dismissal of him may be premature as well.
Mr. Patrick:
You are hereby informed that the GCRTF also voted to limit SBC blogging and tweeting to members of the GCR. You and Mr. Miller are hereby ordered to cease and desist.
OK, but I blog and was not a part of the GCIRJATF. I skate by on the technicality that I was not in the US when the vote took place.
Eileen, brilliant comment.
Jeremy, I may be behind the times, but I need a translation of GCIRJATF.
It’s jeremy-speak for whatever that alphabet-soup of an acrostic is supposed to mean, that thing referring to some commission report from the SBC last year.
I promise to be a faithful comrade and comply with the cease and desist order from the central committee. For Sale: One slightly used housecoat worn gently in the basement while blogging.
Can I have your bunny slippers?
The Presidential team of Michele Bachmann/Rick Perry will run a very spirited and competitive campaign against President Obama and Vice-President Biden but will lose in a close race.
I believe you’re right because so many Christians are so tired of the “mean spirited culture war” that they don’t vote the way Christians are supposed to vote.
Tom,
We agree on the ticket, but perhaps not the order. Do you have Bachmann for Prez and Perry for Vice?
Patrick:
Yes, the order I typed is what I meant. Would you not be willing for the order to be that way and if so why not?
I just see the ticket reversed but could easily support her for President and Perry for Vice.
In fact, opposite Obama and Biden I would have to give serious thought to a Lady Gaga and Charlie Sheen ticket, the logic being that they wouldn’t get anything done and it is better to do nothing than to make things worse.
Rick,
That made me laugh out loud. Trying to see what a Gaga-Sheen campaign poster would look like…
I might go Sheen, Gaga -Winning!
Hate to be contrary (no, not really 🙂 ), but if Michele Bachmann is on the ticket, particularly as the Presidential candidate, then President Obama will win re-election in a landslide. It will not be pretty or close. As a conservative, this ticket excites me about as much as Dole/Kemp in 1996. Right now, there are no major Republican candidates who are conservative AND electable, IMO. But, then again, what do I know? I’m still shocked that Americans elected the current President.
I would have bet my last dollar that Joe would be the first commenter after my comment but us good old SB do not bet.
I only commented as to what I believe will happen–I prognosticated.
I also pronosticated and gave my reasons why I expect that to happen–that instead of voting the way Christians are supposed to vote, many who claim to be Christians are willing to compromise and vote for something like Obama.
4. No idea why our association or two others I have been in need a building.
Our association can barely afford a DOM.
Our association can’t afford a DOM at all. Nor can any of the others in our convention.
Aaron,
I agree 100%
A generation (or two) ago most associations that I know of did not have any full time employees. No DOM, no secretary, no employees at all. They elected an association president and secretary from among their member churches and all association work was done on a voluntarily bases. (What a concept!) The only thing the association paid for were any expenses associated with fulfilling the duties of the office you were elected.
No buildings and no salaries equaled much more money for joint local missions work, and that’s where the local association concentrated it’s efforts on local missions.
Of course this was back before “The Ministry” became a professional career choice and not a calling 🙂
Grace for the Journey,
1. Is this a surprise when a large head-count is the measure of effectiveness in most all things Baptist and, irregardless of the complaints lodged over the matter, take a close look at the models held up at conferences, clinics, programs, etc. all accross SBC life. Pastors are taught, encouraged, and measured by their role-models and peers largely on the basis of head-counts. So…in turn, we are fearful of calling a halt to church “hoping” (or in Baptist parlance, “tranfer of membership”). I wonder if this is more of a “ministerial” problem than a lay-person problem.
2. Is this a surprise after football players began wearing pink shoes?
3. It’s too early to know what is going to unfold with Perry and/or others. Recently the GOP has become pretty good at sabatoging themselves. Of course an effective President needs to have strong convictions, but he/she also needs to be able to LEAD this nation back toward greatness. Perry may or may not be that person…we’ll see. Meanwhile, hurray for Bachman’s gutsy and appropriate response!
4. Is it surprising association “offices” are often poor investments when they could actually be centers of mission/ministry action as well as “birthing centers” for new congregations? If associational “office” space is going unused or underused, it may have more to do with an outdated or ineffective working definition of associationalism. As long as pastors and congregations measure themselves by budgets, buildings, and butts this conversation will continue in churches and associations.
5. I think Rick’s thinking on point 5 is right thinking and obviously true for any thinking person to see and think…I think.
Thanks Rick and Dave for the post. Blessings
“His message is uncompromising, which is another way of saying that he possesses the courage of his convictions.”
Well if I can’t argue theology in this post, I’ll go ahead and get myself into hot water over politics. 🙂
I want to like Perry, but he has just about lost me. His prayer rally could have been good, but he really should have taken a back seat once he organized it. As it is, to me it looks too much like his real interest was launching his political campaign by winning over evangelicals. The timing was too close to draw another conclusion. I’m not going to vote for someone just because he’s willing to play the evangelical.
Most of the rest of the candidates are too off the wall for me. Bachmann? Almost as bad as Palin! Paul? No, he’d just veto everything. Gingrich? Don’t think anyone takes him seriously. On and on. So far, I have no idea who I will support. I never thought I would give Romney a second thought, but I’ll be watching him closer, though his history on pro-life and pro-family issues are causes for concern and possible deal breakers.
May have to write-in Tom Ascol.
1. Church hoppers should be forced to wear a “Scarlet H” on their clothing.
wm: No tags are needed. Pastors can spot them…and are happy to have them hop on in.
3. Rick Perry is going to be the next President of the United States.
wm: Not sure I like this wild conjecture. He has proven that he knows how to play evangelicals who haven’t learned not to be easily played by politicians.
Bachmann has effectively dodged a straight answer on submission, which, according to her is merely ‘respect.’ Expect her to be pressed on this one.
4. Local Baptist associations should reconsider their office buildings.
wm: Wait a minute. Egos require edifices…and staff.
5. NAMB is once again creating bureaucracy and not eliminating it.
wm: I’m not prepared to agree with you that NAMB is doing an equivalent job creation as in the two Xcomm jobs you mention.
You guys live in a different world than I do. Our DOM covers a territory from Minnesota to Missouri and about 100 miles in from the Nebraska/SD border. We can’t even pay him without the help of NAMB. He has no office, no secretary. He had a car. He has a computer. He has a house.
I acknowledge the vast difference here. I’ve always been in deep south associations.
We lost all of our DOMs in the Dakotas over the last couple of years. The GCR changes required all of those NAMB guys to become church planter/catalysts and set some absurd benchmarks for the first year. It hasn’t been pretty on that front up here.
Wow. First I’ve heard of that. Would love details. Did I understand right that there is not a SINGLE Director of Missions in the Dakotas? Or were you using hyperbole?
No hyperbole at all. We explained to all of our associations that there is no longer a way to use any NAMB funded people as Associational Missionaries early this year. All of our associations are now using a “moderator-led” model except one that has their old Assoc. Missionary staying on as a volunteer. In fact, we only have one NAMB missionary in the Dakotas at this point who is not a part of the state staff. He is a church planter at heart, so this wasn’t a big shock or change for him as much as it was for some of the other guys who have left.
I would love to say more of what I know about the situation but I don’t want to risk getting any of those guys into any kind of trouble. Whoever thought they would like to be “in the know” must be nuts. I don’t care for it much at all to tell the truth. I have considered writing about the benchmarks and such, but I am pretty sure that this blog or even my own blog isn’t the place for such rants. Suffice it to say, I have had some great conversations with other SBC folks from all over the country thanks to our recent disaster situation in Minot and I feel better for the chance to commiserate with some of those fine folks.
Same in Iowa. It’s a job title and job description change.
I have two comments on each of your points: “in jest” and “seriously” …
1.“in jest” … if it wasn’t for counting the Hoppers, reported church membership would only be 50% or so for all SBC churches; putting an “H” on their shirts would cause too much competition between churches to get the Hoppers on their ledgers
“seriously” … Southern Baptists have a lot to be hopping about today to cause them to go shopping … even into other denominational markets
2.“in jest” … I’m sure that the rule change has something to do with being culturally-relevant … seems like everything is being changed these days with that in mind
“seriously” … while the rule was focused on player safety, you can’t eliminate injuries from football – too many “professional” players view themselves as gladiators; they can chop your head off from the 30 or 35-yard line
3.“in jest” … I still have my McCain/Palin yard sign, hoping for the best
“seriously” … I agree that a Perry/Bachman ticket appears to be the best thing on the horizon for the Christian voter – our founding fathers didn’t really separate church from state and neither should we when it comes to our vote
4.“in jest” … or simply force association offices to use those new light bulbs and recycled water to save money
“seriously” … it’s a great idea – too much church real estate sitting empty through the week
5.“in jest” … no comment for the sake of being reverent
“seriously” … I hope NAMB loves loud enough with their new evangelism emphasis to invite the Conference of Southern Baptist Evangelists (COSBE) back to the table
Well here’s my two cents worth
1.) I don’t chase after disgruntled visitors from other churches at all. I used to do so, but I learned it’s a waste of time
2.) Amen to that!
3.) I truly hope you’re right brother. He would make a great president.
4.) I’ve always thought SBs build and maintain too many buildings.
5.) I believe the only paid employees on the SB payroll should be missionaries and the payroll clerks necessary to write the checks. It’s amazing to me how many state employees we have in our state convention.
I remember when I first started in Cedar Rapids, we received an infusion of several families from a local Bible church who came because I “preached the word” and their pastor no longer did. A couple of years later, I had stopped preaching the Word and they had to find another church.
I learned a lot from that.
My people get mad at me because every time we get a visitor from another church, I tell them they need to stay where they are.
As for the five things, I think I will just start by chiming in on number 3. Don’t folks remember that Perry was part of Al Gore’s campaign a few years back? He is worse than Bush 2.0, he is more like Bush 3.0. The elder bush was a “pretend conservative” as well after he joined in with Reagan. And the younger Bush managed to spend more and grow government more than anybody who preceded him ever dreamed (hardly conservative). If he hadn’t been followed by such a free-spender in Obama, his records might have stood for a little longer.
From all that I hear about Perry, he is an opportunist who changes his stripes to suit the situation. I can’t say that I am impressed by him at all.
On the points:
1. If we would focus our efforts on reaching the lost and not build fancy buildings and run special programs designed to attract disgruntled people from other churches, there would be less church-hopping. Also, if there was less pastor-hopping, that would likely help as well.
2. Haven’t seen a pre-season game and didn’t realize they had changed the kickoff. They’ll never drop the commercial: a touchdown results in 3 advertising spots. 1: after the TD; 2:after the PAT; 3: after the kickoff. The money wins out over anything. Safety? it’s related to the rising tide of injury costs, not injuries.
3. I think Gov. Perry is assuming on the evangelical vote and tried to convince he’s Christian with his prayer event, that now shows itself as mere political grandstanding. I was hoping Dave Miller and Jeff Musgrave would run, but they don’t have a DOM to cover for them while they campaign. Seriously: while I haven’t found 3 policies of the current regime I like and will most likely vote to get them out, I’d love to see the opposing campaign focus on what they’re for rather than who they aren’t. I know you’re not President Obama. Now, tell me something you will actually do. Not what you’ll run your yap about, but what you’ll do.
4. Local associations, churches, seminaries, state conventions and nearly every Baptist entity ought to reconsider their overhead expenses. Do we really need all the buildings? Do we need all the staff? We have the buildings to house the staff—-but do we need those people? Could we not spare a few rooms in some churches for them?
5. Interesting that NAMB’s press release about the “Love Loud” job doesn’t mention service on the GCRTF. I’d think that listing his qualifications of SBC life, if you’re including the Resolutions Committee, you’d included the GCRTF. Surely it’s not anathema already, is it? Let’s hope his work leads to more people saved and more disciples growing than we would have had otherwise.