There is great conflict in the modern church, even among evangelicals, about gender roles in the home and at the church. While there are extremes on both ends of the spectrums, evangelicals tend to fall into two groups. Egalitarians assert that the Bible regards all people equally and does not assign different roles on the basis of gender. Wives are not obligated to submit to their husbands, nor are pastoral or other church leadership roles limited to men. Complementarians believe that while men and women have equal value and standing before God, we have been assigned different roles. Men are to be loving, servant leaders in their homes, and wives are commanded to submit to their husband’s authority. In the church, the roles of pastor or elder are limited to men and women are restricted from holding those roles.
Here are links to the previous posts on this subject.
- Introductory post. (Men, Women, Marriage and Ministry: What Does the Bible Say?)
- Genesis 1 (In the Image of God: Male and Female in Genesis 1:16-28)
- Genesis 2 (A Helper Suitable for Him: Gender Issues in Genesis 2)
I would make the following observations.
1) These passages in Genesis are foundational, but are not really decisive. We tend to form our doctrine from the New Testament epistolary evidence and then read our perspective back into the Creation narratives. We are all going to see certain things in Genesis that are shaped by our New Testament study. In this post, in which I am going to examine Genesis 3, this will certainly be true.
However, it is still incumbent on each of us to attempt to do solid exegesis of the Old Testament passage. We may see them through the tint of our views formed by NT studies, but we must be careful not to do exegetical violence to the OT passages. NT study enlightens OT study, but proper exegesis of the NT never invalidates exegesis of the OT.
2) Egalitarian interpreters work hard to provide explanations for the half-dozen or so key NT passages that seem to teach egalitarianism. The “mutual submission” of Ephesians 5:21 somehow invalidates the call for wives to submit in Ephesians 5:22. Words are defined carefully so that passages like 1 Corinthians 11, when identifying a man as the “head” of his wife, do not really advocate a position of authority. They interpret the stuffing out of some of those passages. But the task of the egalitarian expositor is always to demonstrate that the passage does not say what it seems to say. It is the egalitarians’ duty to show us why the passages do not mean what they seem to mean.
The complementarian has an easier task. We demonstrate that passages mean what they seem to mean. Submission actually means submission. Headship is headship. Servant authority is servant authority.
So here is my fundamental point: there is a consistent complementarian ethic in scripture that runs from Genesis 1 through the passages in Paul (and Peter). The most natural interpretation of Genesis 1, 2 and 3 supports complementarianism. The role of women under the OT law also demonstrates complementarianism. Jesus seems to have been a complementarian. Paul’s and Peter’s teachings on women are most naturally seen in a complementarian light.
So, while my exegesis of gender issues in Genesis 3 will certainly not convince the ardent egalitarian, it is one more spoke in the smooth-rolling wheel of complementarian hermeneutics.
Genesis 3: The Fall and Curse
It is pretty obvious that whatever is going on in Genesis 3 is significant to gender issues in the rest of the Bible. It is here that Adam and Eve bring sin into the world and death because of sin. There are also some fascinating gender dynamics going on in the passage. Then, God delineates the curses on the Serpent, on man and on women. The curse on women in Genesis 3:16 is obviously crucial.
“Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
Paul uses this passage as the foundation for his gender teaching in 1 Timothy 2. In verse 11 of that passage, Paul exhorts women to “learn quietly in all submissiveness.” He states in verse 12 that it is impermissible for women to hold authority over men in the church. Paul then gives the theological bases of his pronouncement. In verse 13, he points out that man was first in order of creation. Then, in verse 14 he refers to our passage and says,
“Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
This post will be focused on two dynamics in this passage. First, we will look at how Adam and Eve related during the temptation. Then, we will examine the curse God placed on woman because of sin and try to figure out what was meant by those words in Genesis 3:16.
Gender Issues in the Temptation and Fall
The facts of the fall would not be debated by most evangelicals. The Serpent appears and, twisting the words of God, induces Eve first and then Adam to eat the fruit from the tree from which they were forbidden to eat. This is a great passage to show the pattern of Satan’s temptations and develop an anatomy of sin and temptation. That is not our focus here. We are simply examining gender dynamics in the Fall.
I would make the following observations.
1) God spoke to Adam
In Genesis 2, God gave his instructions about the Tree of Knowledge to Adam, before Eve was created. It was evidently Adam’s job to communicate God’s commands to Eve. He did not seem to do that job very well.
When God spoke to Adam, he simply prohibited eating the fruit of the tree. When Satan tempted Eve, she said that they were not allowed to eat the fruit, or even to touch it. Where did she get that idea? God did not say it.
Is it possible that the key dynamic in the fall is Adam’s failure to properly instruct his wife about the commands of God?
2) Adam was with Eve while she was tempted.
Am I the only one who grew up with the idea that the Serpent found a moment when Eve was off by herself and tempted her? Then, after she sinned, she went and found Adam and badgered him until he took a bite. That was the picture I always had.
Then, as I studied this passage I saw verse 6, which says that after the Serpent’s temptation, “she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.” She ate, then she turned to her husband who was right there with her the whole time.
During the time of Eve’s temptation, when she was being enticed to violate God’s command, Adam was standing there listening. What would have happened if Adam had spoken up? Perhaps if Adam had said to the Serpent, “That’s not what God said,” things might have turned out differently.
It appears that the primary cause of the sin was that Adam failed to accept the role God had given him. Instead of leading Eve, instead of standing between her and the temptor, he blended into the background. It seems to me that sin entered the world partially because the man God created did not take the place of leadership God gave him.
Again, I understand the limits of this evidence. It will not convince the ardent egalitarian. On the other hand, it is simply one more passage that easily dovetails with the complementarian position.
The Curse on Women and Men
Sin has consequences, and in Genesis 3:14-19, God spells out those consequences, first on the Serpent, then on the woman, then on the man. God guarantees the ultimate destruction of evil by the seed of the woman, making this passage (called the Protoevangelion) one of Genesis’ most significant passages. But once again, our concern is more limited and specific. We are looking at the gender issues.
It would be no surprise to anyone that egalitarians and complementarians view this passage differently. Egalitarians say that male authority was not part of God’s original intent and that the Fall and the curse of Genesis 3:16 actually instituted patriarchy and male dominance. Of course, Complementarians say this is not accurate. We believe that gender roles were part of God’s creation. The curse was not the institution of gender roles, but the perversion of them.
Genesis 3:16b makes two definitive statements. “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
The first statement is probably the most difficult to understand. What does it mean that the woman’s desire would be for her husband? The second statement is a little more straightforward, less debated. The husband will rule over his wife.
It is important to note that this is a curse – a consequence of sin. And this statement – both halves – is a declaration of fact, not an imperative. God is not telling us what should be, but what will be.
“Your Desire Will Be for Your Husband.”
This seems to be the key question here – what does it mean that a woman’s desire will be for her husband?
The key word, “desire” is only used three times in the OT. It appears in Song 7:10 and seems to refer to sexual desire. It also appears in Genesis 4:7, just a few verses after Genesis 3:16. This would seem to be the most significant context in determining our meaning, because it appears so close to the verse in context, and because it is also used in contrast to the word “rule” in both passages.
In Genesis 4:7, Cain finds himself jealous and angry at his brother, because his offerings were rejected by God while Abel’s were accepted. God warns him that sin is trying to take him, rule over him. He says,
“If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”
Sin’s desire is “for you,” as God warns Cain. Sin is desiring to dominate and control Cain. Actually, this meaning is not completely absent in Song 7:10. The sexual desire can have a possessive aspect.
The word “desire” has the connotation of a strong desire to control or master something. Sin wants to possess and control Cain. The Lover has the desire to possess sexually in the Song. And here, the women has a newfound desire to control and dominate her husband.
The man’s response? He now rules over his wife. He does not just lead her or serve her. Now, as a result of sin, he dominates and controls her. The curse is that what the woman seeks (to dominate and control her husband) will be frustrated by the husband’s dominance over her.
So, what am I saying?
1) The original intent of God was that a man and a woman would work together (complementing each other). He gave us different roles, but they were meant to be used in cooperation, love and support of one another. Man was to lead his wife, not to dominate her. Woman was to help her husband, to be his partner and support. God’s intent was for a man and a woman to be different, but not in conflict.
2) The curse is that the intent of God was marred. Men, instead of being loving leaders, would become dominating, controlling, even oppressive. Women, instead of being willing helpers, supporters of their husbands, would seek to dominate and control them.
It is not authority that was the curse, it is the “battle of the sexes.” God designed us with key differences – that predated the Fall and survived it. What the Fall did was corrupt the complementarian nature of our differences and made them competitive.
Men were never meant to dominate and oppress women. We were to be leaders – godly leaders. In the Kingdom, all leaders use their authority to bless and prosper those they hold that authority over. The idea that women were put here on earth to serve the whims and needs of a man is a corruption of the created intent – not a fruit of it. Sin corrupted the complementary roles we were intended to have and created the competitive, oppressive, battle between the sexes.
3) This view, that the Fall did not add something to creation, but corrupted what was already created, is borne out by the first part of the verse. In that, the process of childbirth was cursed with pain. Women were naturally designed to give birth (duh). The curse was not that they would give birth, it was that they would give birth with pain.
The curse in the second half of the verse follows that same template. Authority was always a part of all that God created. The Fall and the Curse did not create authority, it perverted it.
A Word about Authority
Some interpreters have been doing a remarkable thing in recent days – asserting that concepts of authority and submission are contrary to the ways of the kingdom. That is a hard assertion to make from scripture. I’ve been working on a post about this, but I’m not ready to post that yet. Let me give you the short version though.
Authority is a part of everything that God creates. He made the world and gave man dominion. He created the home and put parents over children and gave men a special responsibility to lead. I believe that there is even authority within the Godhead (see a lengthy discussion of the “Eternal Subordination of Christ here.)
The problem is not with authority, it is with our view of authority. Human beings seem to see authority as the right to oppress, dominate, control and use others. It is not such. In the Divine order, authority is always used to lift up and bless the person over whom you hold authority. The Father glorified the Son. Jesus Christ, the absolute Lord of all, uses his authority to save, bless and exalt us to the heavenly places!
So, does the Bible teach that I have authority over my wife? I believe that it does. But what does that mean? Does it mean that my wife exists as a slave to my needs? Am I to use her as I please? Is it my job to “keep her in her place”? Absolutely not. That is not God’s intent. It is a corruption of that intent.
I am to use the authority God has given me to bless my wife. I do not lead her so that I can have the best life I can have, but so that she will have the best life she can have. Authority is an obligation to bless, to lead into God’s grace and mercy.
Yes, authority is a part of everything God creates. But it is a godly authority, not an earthly perversion of that authority.
A Word to the Men
While the main focus here is the statement about women in verse 16, there is an interesting dynamic in Genesis 3:17. Remember what I said about Adam standing there beside his wife and allowing her to fall into sin? He did not use his authority to bless his wife and lead her in the paths of righteousness. He abdicated his responsibility and followed instead of leading.
Look at verse 17. It seems to buttress that idea.
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you.”
What is Adam judged for here? He “listened to the voice of (his) wife.” No, gentlemen, sorry! This is not an excuse to ignore your “nagging” wife. It is a hint as to how things went wrong. God gave Adam a command and expected him to lead his wife in obedience. But Adam followed instead of leading. Because he did not take up the authority God gave him and lead his wife into the ways of God, she fell into temptation.
Gentlemen, when we do not take up the mantle of SERVANT leadership that God has given us, the consequences in the lives of our families, our churches, our lives is disastrous. The world needs men who lead – not by human standards of dominance and oppression. It needs men who determine that they are going to be servant leaders, devoting their lives to blessing their families and churches by being all that God called them to be.
May it happen, O Lord.
Okay, I’m going to make a request (which I fully know will be ignored). That’s the nature of the blog!
It would warm my heart if we would discuss Genesis 3 and the proper exegesis of that passage. Okay, I know I brought some other things up, so I opened the door. But could we focus on this passage in the discussion?
Pretty please?
“Okay, I know I brought some other things up, so I opened the door.”
DAVID, I’m reading along, trying to follow the logic, knowing I can stay on topic (almost),
but then . . . I see . . . those words. . .
“I believe that there is even authority within the Godhead”
(link deleted by editor)
I think I made a strong biblical case for the historic doctrine of the Trinity – which includes ESS. If you don’t like that, fine.
But any further attempts to belittle others with ridicule on this comment thread will be deleted. We are trying to elevate the discussion, not descend into the gutter.
“”It appears that the primary cause of the sin was that Adam failed to accept the role God had given him. Instead of leading Eve, instead of standing between her and the temptor, he blended into the background”” How is there any “Adam shoulda, coulda” before sin enters the world? Wouldn’t the relationship before sin have been unaffected by sin? Implying that Adam didn’t do what he was supposed to do before the actual fall would seem to be implying that Adam and Eve were not in a completely sinless state before the fall. The sin was eating of the… Read more »
I refer again to Genesis 3:17, in which the curse falls on Adam because he “listened to his wife – and then ate.”
Was Adam supposed to stand by in silence and wait for Eve to sin?
The coming of sin is a process in Genesis 3, which culminates in the fall when they ate the fruit. It starts with Eve listening to the temptor, twisting God’s Word and then being seduced. A contributing factor is Adam’s silence.
The fall is a process, with contributing factors along the way.
There is some debate on the standing of Adam and Eve before the fall. Were they perfect? Just innocent and untested?
They obviously were not Christ-like in perfection, because they fell. They were innocent and untested. However, I think it may be a stretch to infer that this means that every action prior to the eating of the fruit was just and right.
Thanks for your comments regarding authority. The world has certainly distorted the concept of biblical authority. On the issue of Adam and Eve prior to the fall, remember that God had given only one commandment: that they were not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It thus appears that, as to all other possible sins they could have committed, they were utterly innocent: it would never have occurred to Adam to, for example, curse God or kill Eve. The only sin he was aware of was eating of the forbidden tree. And, of course, this… Read more »
If, as I believe, Adam was given authority (godly, servant-based) over his wife prior to the fall, then it would not be accurate to say that the only command he had was not to eat. He had been told to multiply and fill the earth. Those were two commands given in addition to the prohibition on the tree. So, I guess I do not think it is accurate to say that there was only one command. I’m not sure we are that far apart here (maybe we are – who knows?). But I am agreeing that the eating of the… Read more »
An unwise choice contrary to the will of God = sin. We know Adam an Eve were naked and unashamed = they were innocent. You seem to be saying that if they were lazy and the garden was unattended that would have = the sin of eating of the tree? The only sin they were capable of committing was eating of the fruit because that was the one thing they were told to specifically not do. Can you give me the Biblical basis for saying Adam failed to lead his wife prior to sin entering the world? You don’t need… Read more »
I was only countering your assertion that they only got one command.
They were told to tend the garden. To multiply and fill the earth. They received a series of commands. I would guess that disobedience to any of those commands would have been sinful, right?
All that is theoretical and conjectural, of course. They violated the command against eating the fruit.
But, when Adam was judged in Genesis 3:17, it was for “listening” instead of leading.
“They were told to tend the garden. To multiply and fill the earth. ”
Where did God say if they didn’t do those things they would die? Were they capable of being tempted to not do those things? When sin had not entered the picture yet?
That is true. But what would have happened had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit, but didn’t fulfill the other commands?
We are dealing with conjectures here.
However, it is clear that Adam did not speak when Eve was being tempted. It is also clear that Genesis 3:17 calls him on that silence. I think the way that is worded is significant.
Yes, the sin was eating the fruit.
But the events that led up to that sin were factors that contributed to the fall.
But the events that led up to that sin were factors that contributed to the fall.
Is that conjecture or can you support that Biblically? it seems like the events as you describe them would have been sin themselves?
But what would have happened had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit, but didn’t fulfill the other commands?
Without sin they were pleased to do what God wanted them to do. The only temptation to sin was the tree. you seem to think there were other temptations in the Garden?
My bottom comment (which is currently 20, but will be 21 when I leave this comment and will continue changing!) answers this. In an effort to bring it all together, lets move to the bottom.
And understand that we absolutely believe that Adam and Eve were created to complement each other. But think of their pre-fall state as that of little babies – could you say “look the little boy baby failed to protect the little girl baby” They were absolutely innocent and knew nothing about failing until “their eyes were open and they saw they were naked.” The only temptation to sin was the temptation to eat of the tree – nothing else. Only one thing they could fail at. And I think that by the time we get to the NT teachings on… Read more »
I’m not sure I understand the pre-fall condition of Adam and Eve as well as I’d like. Some call it perfect. The old Dispensational term was innocent.
Certainly, they had not fallen into sin. But neither were they perfected like Christ, or like we will be in glory.
They were adults, undoubtedly naive (as per your “babies” illustration above), in the Image of God, untouched as yet by sin. Beyond that, I guess I need to narrow that down a little farther.
The only temptation was the fruit. For Adam to have been tempted not to do what he was supposed to do would have been Adam being affected by sin that hadn’t entered the world yet. The only shoulda coulda before the fall was “Adam should not have eaten that fruit.” Not Adam should have done xyz – the relationship before the fall was a perfect, I believe complementarian relationship – Adam led as a servent leader and Eve followed. They each had their specific roles.
I guess I’m not sure that exegesis supports your assertions. God gave several commands.
Where does God make the “commands” to be fruitful and have dominion equal to the command not to eat of the tree? You’re saying that there were more possibility of sins than just eating of the tree?
You made the statement that God gave only one command. I pointed out that God gave Adam and Eve several commands. That was my only point there.
There seemed to be only one command that could have resulted in disobedience and that was “don’t eat the fruit”
On listening to his wife – the sin wasn’t the listening it was the sin of eating the fruit.
I hate when we run out of layers on the comments – so this is in response to #17 – putting it back all the way to the left. Okay, I will concede your point for the purpose of argument. There was only one sin that could have resulted in the fall. But does that mean that everything they did leading up to that moment of sin was justified and righteous? I think that is what you are saying. I am saying that eating the fruit resulted in sin. Agreed. But I am also saying that a series of choices… Read more »
now, its #19, but its the comment above this one – for now at least.
Here’s my thing Dave Miller and then I let this go for others to have their fun with. I don’t think you can prove Biblically that there was anything Adam shoulda coulda done in pre fall world. I think when we try to go back and impose what we want to believe into Scripture that we weaken our argument. Complementarianism doesn’t need this point. Adam and Eve were innocent, there relationship was perfect – it’s what God intended the relationship between men and women to be. It’s what we are striving to get back to and I think the NT… Read more »
Hi Bess,
I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think our goal is a return to innocence. We are going to be, as Christians, more than Adam ever was. We will be fully adopted sons and daughters of God, re-created in Christ. Just a minor point though, considering the rest of what you said. Good discussion.
Jim G.
“”But I am also saying that a series of choices that Adam and Eve made leading up to the moment contributed to the final bad choice they made to sin. A process of bad choices (which all took place within a few minutes time perhaps) led to the sin. Are you saying that everything they did right up to the very moment they ate the fruit was sinless in God’s eyes?”” I’m saying in a pre fall world there is no process of sin because that whole idea of process is what we have in a fallen world not the… Read more »
“Are you saying that everything they did right up to the very moment they ate the fruit was sinless in God’s eyes?””
Do you really mean to say this? You think they sinned before Adam ate the fruit?
I actually meant to use the word perfect, or blameless.
Everything they did was perfectly justified right up to the moment they suddenly committed a sin?
Isn’t it more reasonable (and biblical) to see sin as it usually is – the result of a process of unwise choices. Here, we are talking about choices over a few minutes time.
“……process of unwise choices. Here, we are talking about choices over a few minutes time.”
It’s a process of unwise choices NOW because of sin. Was there a process before sin entered the world?
Every other sin we talk about is in a fallen world. The first sin – no fallen world.
Again, no disagreement. My point is that the sin did not magically happen in an instant. It was a process that developed bringing Adam and Eve to that moment where they made the fateful choice.
And part of that process was Adam’s failure to assert the truth that God had spoken to him when Eve was being lied to by Satan.
I guess we’ve hammered this one to death.
Nah, don’t think so. You haven’t convinced me. But thanks for putting up with my nagging. 🙂
Hi Bess,
I would say that process was called “temptation.” Adam should have kicked the snake in the teeth when he said “Hath God said…” :0)
Jim G.
Temptation is right and the ONLY temptation was to eat of the fruit – I don’t see how Adam could have been tempted to not be the husband he was more than capable of being in the pre-fall world. My first question was “how could Adam have not being doing what he was supposed to be doing as a husband when there was no sin because that would have been sin.” Sin is what makes us not do what we should and could. The only thing Adam and Eve were forbidden was the fruit. Nothing else. They were in a… Read more »
So, Adam and Eve’s every instinct was right and just right up until that nanosecond in which they chose to sin? That seems to be what you are saying. I am saying that the Serpent appeared to them and began a process of temptation that lasted perhaps several minutes, an hour – who knows? During that time, as the temptation grew, Adam and Eve began to get confused. Eve engaged the Serpent instead of turning away. Adam listened and did not speak what he knew to be true. He followed instead of leading. As the temptation went on their confusion… Read more »
“The idea that they were 100% perfect until the nanosecond in which they decided to sin seems absurd, doesn’t it?” No, I don’t find it absurd at all in a pre-fall world. If there was no sin, then there could be no effects of sin. The sin that caused the fall was eating the fruit. There’s no sin until there’s sin. Now I know that you infer from Gen 3:6 that Adam was present the whole time the Serpent is tempting Eve and that may be true, but I think it’s more likely that there’s a break in time between… Read more »
We gotta go feed the kids Dave. Thanks for the dialogue. Maybe you can kick around the idea “Was there a process of sin in the pre fall world” Which you seem to believe but to me the pre fall world was sin free so this idea of a process of sin is the effect of sin on the fallen world. And I think that’s the main point here – How could there be any shoulda, coulda in a pre fall world where sin had not messed everything up? I look at the world pre fall as what I think… Read more »
For the record, this is the kind of discussion that I love to have. We have had a lively disagreement, but it has been focused and cordial. I’m headed to Applebee’s, so I will give someone else the last word here. Or at least the last word until I down my salad!
So where’s my gold star? I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this, but I agree with everything else you wrote so you’re not doing so bad!
Another year of Upward begins tomorrow and of course one kid has to be at church at 8:30 and another kid doesn’t have a game til 1:00 and my youths are leaving on a mission weekend. So I will leave the discussion now. You’ve actually helped me organize my thoughts more on this subject, just not the way you may like!
We start Upward tomorrow as well, though I have to go to an out of town funeral instead of doing my normal halftime devotionals.
Interesting discussion. Heading another direction, what strikes me is this: “The problem is not with authority, it is with our view of authority.” I would disagree and say the problem IS with authority, and secondarily with our view of authority. As a Venn diagram, one circle would be “Against Authority,” the other would be “Against Misuse of Authority,” and the two would overlap. And IMO the “Against Authority” circle (which includes any view that authority is inherently not good or not of God) might actually be larger. This is a profound, foundational issue. It changes everything. Ha ha! In order… Read more »
This is such a good comment, you ought to consider posting it twice.
Interesting discussion. Heading another direction, what strikes me is this: “The problem is not with authority, it is with our view of authority.” I would disagree and say the problem IS with authority, and secondarily with our view of authority. As a Venn diagram, one circle would be “Against Authority,” the other would be “Against Misuse of Authority,” and the two would overlap. And IMO the “Against Authority” circle (which includes any view that authority is inherently not good or not of God) might actually be larger. This is a profound, foundational issue for Christians. Ha ha! To post this… Read more »
There it is!
Grace in action; thanks.
Hey and I guess I submitted twice! (youth group called and I forgot I already posted this, sorry).
Ok, I’m sick and hyped up on cold meds and cough syrup, so pounce on this all you want:
Is the specific act of eating the fruit the sin or is it really the blatant disobedience? Was it not that eating the fruit was sinful only because God had said not to do it?
I know there’s not a practical difference: the action showed the disobedience. But is there one for theology’s sake or am I standing too close to the microwave and thinking there’s a point here?
Doug
Think about the meaning of the name of ‘the tree’.
‘.
I think we are all aware of the name of the Tree. Do you have a point to make about it?
And I thought it was just me. It’s been a long day and I find I’m not getting anybody’s point anywhere 😉
Bess, I don’t even get my own question this morning. Too much cold medication.
The name of the tree is actually unimportant. God could have called the tree “Fernando” and then said “Don’t eat” and eating it would have been sinful. The disobedience was the sin.
Thank you for responding, DOUG.
DOUG, I hope you feel better soon. Start drinking a lot of water to hydrate those inflamed tissues, get extra sleep if you can, and here is an old French-Canadian remedy:
boil up some water and pour it into a large bowl;
add some Vicks Vapor Rub to the water;
lean over the bowl, cover you head and the bowl with a towel to make a ‘tent’, and breathe the steam. Sometimes the old remedies work better than all that over-the-counter junk.
I think some extra sleep will help you the most, but drink lots of water.
The arguments for complementarianism are really based on reading the statements in Genesis, for example, as prescriptive and not descriptive. While there is a certain element of authority in command situations, the ethical considerations and the eternal purpose for the statement can never be ignored. I remember once, when the wisest man I ever met ask me, “Have you ever thought about the fact that every last soul on the face of the earth at one time could be the elect of God?” I answered, “No.” the reason was obvious: my eschatology would not permit any such thing. Then seven… Read more »
Here is a dialectic:
God’s Word is so magnificent it goes beyond dialectic and is more akin to a shining orb. Which is why we can’t comprehend the beauty of gender roles.
But it is simple in essence, available even to children and the simple-minded. Which is why we/they accept gender roles.
Okay – I think I’m seeing that. Interesting.
With no offense meant to Brother Randall, what you say (Dr. W) makes sense to me. And from another perspective: if “gender roles” are prescriptive, why doesn’t the Bible somewhere say, “Women shall do the following. . . ,” likewise “Men shall. . . ,” and “Ne’er the twain shall meet”? The comment that does not click at all for me is K. Gray’s, “God’s Word is so magnificent it goes beyond dialectic and is more akin to a shining orb. Which is why we can’t comprehend the beauty of gender roles” and “But it is simple in essence, available… Read more »
I got the same rendering John. What confuses me with this view is that it is OK for a woman to be President, leader in a company, leader in the world, but then when she comes home or goes to church she has to hide this part of her and become gender role minded. Tell me gentleman, could you do this? Scripture has been given that I believe show women in ministry and leadership, but I don’t understand why she gets to use her God given talents for the world, but not the church. Shouldn’t it be the other way… Read more »
Its kind of a leap from saying that women are not to have a certain role in the church to saying that women are to have NO role in the church. Just because the Bible says that women should not be pastors does not imply the things that you infer. IT seems that you create a false comparison. It is not all or nothing. If God established certain roles, why would you say that the only way for a women to have an impact would be to abandon that role? Wouldn’t a woman best be able to accomplish God’s work… Read more »
Dave: I am speaking of having certain roles in church.
John Fariss you are right. Dave Miller asked us to stay with exegesis; what I wrote was conclusory. I did not mean to imply “God revealed to me’ or end the conversation. Rather, I had strong reactions to Dr. Willingham’s lengthy, reference-heavy comment. I decided not to respond point by point but to borrow his form (dialectic) to express several responses in simple fashion. I’m a layperson. Sometimes I think the average layperson who has a simple, orthodox understanding of the Bible on gender issues is being told that he/she is unenlightened, incapable of “getting it,” and “at eternal peril… Read more »
K. Gray, I did not mean to offend you, and if I did, please accept my appologies. I appreciate the spirit in which you responded. And lay-person or clergy–and I both hate the distinction and believe it is non-Biblical at best–we are all just students of the Word. Merely as food for thought, let me ask you: are you sure that who was created first, or for that matter, who surcumbed first to temptation, is all that significant, especially in terms of the so-called “gender roles”? Granted, God could have created both Adam and Eve simultaneously, but He did not;… Read more »
KGray: The thing about even your comment above is that we do not have the Holy Spirit in us revealing as well. That you could possibly be wrong. I believe you are. And I have no problem with you living this way if you believe this is correct Biblically, the problem comes when you believe all women should live or believe this way when I see the Bible saying differently and as I told Dave above, I believe if holds a woman back to a select few things, stifling her gifts to a small degree. And for me that is… Read more »
The church in scripture didn’t hold those back who were gifted in any area. The church allowed and encouraged health of both the church and the people, men and women. The church today is more destructive to people than it is healthy. That is a big problem. We should know better, yet we continue to slap down and break down people and for what??? Christ stopped this when he confronted the Pharisees. Paul the Jews.
I appreciate the short hand and your well thought out, biblical defense of what scripture very clearly teaches.
“”Merely as food for thought, let me ask you: are you sure that who was created first, or for that matter, who surcumbed first to temptation, is all that significant, especially in terms of the so-called “gender roles”?”
Creation order IS very important theologically, so much so that Paul explicitly states who “sinned first.” Now, you don’t have to agree with Paul, but you still have to acknowledge what he said.
Frank: I would say come visit our church sometime and see how it’s supposed to be done. After discussion here I kiss the walls of our church. 🙂
Bess: I would comment on what you wrote in your last comment but I would surely be deleted. 🙂
Debs, your Enid cult is infamous in the SBC and you yourself as a product demonstate that your church is not at all how “it’s supposed to be done” Unless someone chooses to be indoctrinated into a hatred for all things SBC that is. Your church is famous for claiming the SBC is intolerant but you are the most intolernt of dissenting opinions of anyone posting on any SBC blog. You have shown yourself to be incapable of disagreeing with anyone without being hateful, condescending, and arrogant. Not a ringing endorsement for what pap you learn in Enid. Oh and… Read more »
BESS, I am a Roman Catholic as you know, and I frequently tune in to the telecast at Debbie’s Church in Enid to hear the sermons. I have not seen any ‘sign’ that they are ‘a cult’.
On what actual evidence do you base that accusation, or is it just a slander against those good people?
Dr. Willingham, The last time we had a discussion, it ended with you admitting that you had your facts mistaken and then you proceeding to insult me. Hopefully, this time will go better. Personally, I really can’t follow much of your reasoning here and it appears to me to be more “stream of consciousness” than logical argument. The one thing that I do take issue with you on is what you said somewhere in the middle of your discourse: Nay, such egalitarian verses are there to put a check to that madness which will evince itself sooner or later –… Read more »
Debbie, of course people can believe and live in the manner they choose! And good Christian people disagree. I thought this was a discussion in which people state what they believe and why.
I agree with the main post.
You believe I am wrong, and so be it, friend. I would not count this as a brick wall issue.
John Fariss, thanks for your gracious response.
I would not derive anything from the order of human creation, except for other Scripture which refers to it.
I think there were several “sins” in this situation. Before the eating of the fruit there was apparently, a switch from believing what God said to believing what Satan said. Also Eve added to the “don’t eat” with “don’t touch it.” Also there is Adam. Was he busy dressing and keeping the plant in front of him and oblivious to the conversation going on with the serpent and Eve so that he didn’t “abandon” his protector duties until, he looks up, “sees” a change in Eve’s appearance, i.e. the “light that covered her was out, she was different and she’s… Read more »
I guess there is a lot that is still speculative.
Good thoughts, thanks for joining in.
I would like to add, continuing with the idea that there was a process leading up to the sin of eating the fruit, is not every man and woman, boy, girl tempted to sin the same way? 1)drawn away of their own lust and enticed. Lust conceives and brings forth sin. And sin when it is finished, brings forth death. Eve looked, thought it over and lusted. Adam looked at Eve, thought it over and lusted for her, more than he desired to obey, submit to, revere God.
I really appreciate this post Dave. I have often described myself as a reluctant complementarian because of the way so many comps drive the authority issues until they sound like oppression issues. But this post seems good to me. But I do have one issue, and that is the conclusion for comps about the role of pastor. I can see what you say about men and women being different and complementary. But when you get to roles in the church we are on different ground. You say, ‘It is the egalitarians’ duty to show us why the passages do not… Read more »
“”The church today is more destructive to people than it is healthy. “” Debbie, please speak for your own church and not mine. I don’t doubt that the church you participate in is grumpy, negative, disfunctional, and off-base biblically — you’ve pointed this out more than once. However, our church–though not perfect–is a blessing to many people each week. We feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and visit those that are lonely. If you asked people if our church does “more harm than good,” they’d probably slap you (and then come ask me for absolution). Please, don’t make pronouncements about… Read more »
Oh my goodness, I just about joked on my water. 😉 Thanks for that laugh.
My church is also a wonderful church – not perfect by any means but it is definately not destructive. I also know many other churches that are not destructive.
To Bro. Randle: I was not aware of my insulting you. Indeed, I never think in such terms. In the give and take of debate things are said that can be easily misconstrued, when the person making a statement might well have another purpose in mind. I think there is both a complementarian as well as an egalitarian emphasis in Scripture. There are times, when we need to hear and heed someone with the knowledge for taking certain actions like the missionary who said to his son one day, “Son, drop to the ground now, and crawl this way.” His… Read more »
Dr. Willingham, the complementerian view is balanced in at least four ways that immediately come to mind: – Equal standing. Dave Miller described it: “Complementarians believe that while men and women have equal value and standing before God, we have been assigned different roles.” – Love one another. A general commandment to all Christians in their relationships with one another, inclusive of Scripture which describes specific situations (e.g., in speech, in disagreements and conflicts, in parents and children, in considering others’ interests and welfare, I Cor. 13, and so forth). – Sacrificial servant-leadership. In Ephesians Ch. 5 the specific example… Read more »
KGray
The issue I see is that far too many men focus on the commandment given to the women and conveniently forget the command given to them and the far tougher command at that. I have always contended that if men Loved their wives as commanded there would be no need for this series of posts and certainly no worries by men that their wives were not quite submissive enough.
Everyone does seem fixated on submission, you’re right. Actually the instructions to husbands look pretty imposing! Heavy risks on both spouses; human sin WILL occur, no one will do it perfectly. Still….
It is very easy to deceive ourselves, to fail to grasp underlying realities. The Trojan Horse from Greek History is a good point with reference to complementarianism which does not allow for exceptions. That is a deal breaker in my book. In 53 years of Christian living, in six years of intensive research in Church History, in 28 years of pastoring, in 3 years of Social Work in Missouri and Kentucky Welfare Depts, in Black History research, proposing a doctoral dissertation in that field, and in a Doctor of Ministry project in Christian Love and Race Relations, also a Master’s… Read more »
Agreed, God’s Word contains many creative tensions which defy logic and have great beauty and mystery.
You had raised a point about limitations (“checks and balances”) to which I responded.
You also posit that the complementerian view should allow for exceptions, because God has done so (Deborah, Miriam), and because extraordinary women have led out in His kingdom (Lottie Moon). I agree, because there those exceptions are in the Bible, as clear exceptions rather than the rule.
Exceptions are also a rule, a counter-balancing rule. They constitute the other side of the paradox so to speak. Treating an exception as merely an exception misses the point, because our very salvation is by the rule of exception, that is, exception to the rule of justice, judgment, and punishment. Anomalies drive us to acknowledge that the exceptions are more than just that. When one sees the incongruity between the actual and the desired effect of the application of a one-sided principle, that incongruity or anomaly should move one to look again at the original principle to see if there… Read more »
I agree that the terms “rule” and “exception” are artificial and in some ways inapposite when referring to God’s plan for genders, even though I used them. That said, what I hear you say, in essence, is “chill.” (Phrase borrowed from my children). A good thought, flexible and healthy in many ways, but providing little guidance for practical application. The words in Scripture provide great practical guidance for we simple laypeople.
I leave the hermenautic(s?) to Dave Miller; I speak from the perspective of a simple-minded layperson.
Perhaps the understanding of complementarians about ‘exceptions’ to the rule, may also give rise to the understanding that activity that might PREVENT these exceptions from taking place in the Church, might not be the kind of activity that honors God’s Will. ?
The so-called exceptions come primarily because egalitarians either a) do not understand or b) twist the views of the complementarians.
Deborah is not a problem for complementarian teaching. Miriam. Esther. Mary or other women in Jesus’ earthly ministry. None of them are a problem to a consistent complementarian hermeneutic.
But this is my personal problem Dave. a ‘consistent complementarian hermeneutic’ demands a ‘literal’ reading of the text. If we say that the Tim and Cor passages mean what they mean how does that translate into consistency? Silent means silent. Have no authority surely means have NO authority. Yet, there are women who had authority- Deborah- there are women who spoke and taught. Our consistent complementarian answer has been that women can’t be pastors but how does that fulfill the literal reading of these verses? And if we nuance these verses to make them fit a pastoral prohibition then how… Read more »
Basically, many (not most, not all) e-gals read the clear biblical passages related to gender roles the way they do is because they WANT to read it that way.
Joe: You are right. I do want to read it this way. I want to be able to do whatever I feel God calling me to do and that would include in the church. I do want it to be in the Bible. I do want God’s permission and blessing. You are right, I do not want to believe that God would restrict women with a passion for spreading the Word of God and what they have learned to men and women to teaching women and children only. It’s hard to know that I as a woman am restricted by… Read more »
Debbie, the issue is what the Bible says, not how you or me or anyone else “feels” or “wants” on the subject.
And God did not call any woman to preach/teach in the church because in His word He said that was for men only. Therefore, any desire you have to do any such thing is not from God because He does not contradict His word.
Does the phrase “suck it up and deal with it” mean anything to you?
Dave: That is where you can I would disagree. This is how the Holy Spirit leads. How does a missionary know that God calls him or her to be a missionary. How did you know God was calling you to be a minister? We are Christians. Yes, we are human, but look in scripture. Paul knew to go places and not to go places. The Holy Spirit guiding him.How does that happen? Through the Bible, yes definitely. But also through feelings, thoughts. If it lines up with the Bible, which I would disagree with you that women doing far more… Read more »
For sinful people, our feelings and desires are often contrary to God’s Word. We are not let by our feelings. We bring our feelings and desires captive to Christ in all things.
I want to know how you can actually believe that wanting to teach more than women and children is sin. How wanting to teach God’s Word to men and women is sin. Because that is in essence what you are saying. We have feelings Dave. God put them there. He gave them to us and God didn’t do it by accident. Yes, in our humanness we sin with those feelings, but as Christians we sin far less than some would have us believe. This being one.
Um, I Timothy Chapter 2 verse 12.
God gave us feelings, but like all things in the fall, sin has corrupted them. My experience in counseling is that most people’s feelings run contrary to God’s Word and need to be brought under the authority of God.
The worst thing to do is to place our feelings in an authoritative position over the Word of God.
Joe: That answer is no answer. And you were doing so well. It thought your answer on preaching so that others have a desire for the word was very good.
Well I don’t know how I’ll be able to sleep tonight knowing I dissappointed you.
Oh, and you had a typo. Let me help you out.
Joe: That answer is not the answer I wanted to hear.
It’s the Word of God and then God convicting through the Holy Spirit, using the Word as a sword(feelings) that we realize our need of a Savior. I could go on and on. Baptists do not want feelings but that is not scriptural.
Joe: That has been discussed and since I believe scripture interprets scripture you have to deal with the passages where women were leaders, were in ministry and like Strider that has not been done by complementarians. All scripture has to be included here not just popcorn verses.
That has been discussed and since I believe scripture interprets scripture you have to deal with the passages where women were leaders, were in ministry and like Strider that has not been done by complementarians. THAT IS A FLAT OUT LIE. Wow, Debbie, for someone who complains about people saying things that aren’t true about them, you sure seem to do your fair share of bearing false witness. Even a cursory reading of Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood – the standard for Complementarianism, (published OVER 20 YEARS AGO!!!!), shows that Complementarians have looked at each and every case to which… Read more »
What if like Francis Chan has said, you believe what you believe because you were fed it? What if you were given popcorn verses and fed what you believe but it is not in the Bible? What if everyone, including those who have been preachers, teachers, Christians, leaders, for years, simply said Lord show me the truth and read the Bible? What if. I did that very thing 20 years ago. Now does that make me more spiritual? NO. But I wanted to find out the truth of scripture not what I was fed long before Francis Chan challenged us… Read more »
I agree that Francis Chan is great. He’s also a Complementarian.
It seems this view is also based on the thought that Eve was fooled by Satan and so down through history this has been taught, but if you really look at scripture both men and women fell for false doctrine. Both men and women failed or sinned. And in the church many male leaders fall for false doctrine and have committed sins both small and great so that passage and interpretation fails. As for the passages you gave Joe, look at them in light of other passages that show women(and there are a great number of them) doing traditionally male… Read more »
Hey Debbie, guess what? No matter how much you blather and whine about it, with the exception of the few moderate leaning/CBF loving churches like yours, women in the SBC are not and are not going to be given the opportunity to teach men. Knowing how much that bothers you brings a big smile to my face on this cold, dreary day. 🙂
Of course, Debbie, you are always welcome to your feelings. Whether you follow them or not is your choice. But I hope you understand that I’m not willing to accept your feelings as a decisive authority on gender issues.
I have to follow exegesis, which leads me to the complementarian position.
That is dismissive Dave and cuts off communication. That is why this issue is never settled. I also follow exegesis. I also believe scripture to be the final authority, but I also believe in God leading with the scriptures and you have not dealt with passages at all related to women but to write one sentence as to why that does not apply. I am not buying that. That is not exegesis that is dismissing. It seems like an answer but it is not.
That is dismissive Dave
In dealing with you, that’s the best way to be. Pat you on the head and tell you to run along now–the adults are trying to have a conversation.
DR: Yes he is but he is also doing things that he is being criticized for such as giving up his ministry and following Christ. His wife is a huge part of that. Some people claim complementarianism and live as egalatarians. His wife has also taught and spoken to both men and women several times. I am not criticizing as I think she is a wonderful speaker and love to listen to her heart as well. God is doing something in Francis Chan.
So, he can be a Complementarian as long as you approve of how he lives that out? Perhaps you’ve had the well poisoned over there in Enid as to how Complementarianism actually functions in most of our homes and Churches. I challenge you to spend some time with Bruce Ware, Tom Schreiner, Wayne Grudem, and John Piper and their wives and then tell me how God isn’t doing something equally “wonderful” in their lives as well.
Oh, and by the way, one of Chan’s closest friends is Mark Driscoll, a very outspoken Complementarian.
Perhaps you’ve had the well poisoned over there in Enid
I’m sorry, but that may well be the biggest understatement in the past 327 years. (snicker, snort, larf)
Joe: This means that you cannot deal with my argument. I am ignoring your comments until you can deal with the text. Either deal with the text or know that your comments fall short and further my argument. 🙂 Thanks for that though.
Get your Bible out and dig. If you can’t do that there is nothing more I can say to you. What you find may surprise you. Is what you believe what you have been fed with popcorn verses? Could be. I think it is. I think over the years I have shown that it is.
“Popcorn verses”?
Is this a term you guys use in Enid to refer to passages in Scripture you don’t like?
Because it seems that if anything qualifies as a “popcorn verse” it would be interpreting Galatians 3:28 as having to do with roles, when in fact in the context it is specifically speaking of having equal access to salvation through the blood of Christ.
Is this a term you guys use in Enid to refer to passages in Scripture you don’t like?
Ok, I will be sending you a bill for the new laptop you owe me after I just shot Dr. Pepper out of my nose all over this one after reading your skewering of Debbie.
“Some people claim complementarianism and live as egalatarians.”
This is a dismissive and insulting comment. Just because complementrians don’t live out the caricutures and straw men that the egals paint doesn’t equal that they’re not living out Biblical complementarianism.
And yes the so called “exceptions” are dealt with ad nauseum – the egals just reject the exegisis with ideas that some mean partriarchy guy from the past intentionally misinterpreted scripture to suit his nefarious plot to keep woman down. It’s the Dan Brown conspiricy theory. The Scriptures we hold are corrupted.
And on this one point, I think he brings up something revolutionary and I would love to see it happen. I am doing it again, so who knows where it will lead. I may change my views on some things but on this so far I believe it stronger. I have taken the challenge again, even though I did it twenty years prior.
Debbie, It seems to me that in this line of thought you have going here you are placing one’s desires over and above the plain teaching of Scripture. Over and over again I see in contemporary Evangelicalism the deception of Satan in Genesis 3 – “Did God really say?” What results is a radical reinterpretation of Scripture based on feelings and questions like “Would God really give someone a desire if…?” The same tired old argument is used when dealing with homosexuality. You are using the same exact existential trajectory (and the same hermeneutical trajectory as well – see Wayne… Read more »
Again DR. This is dismissive of what I have said and I don’t deal well with dismissive comments. You say the Bible is the final authority yet you continue to ignore passages dealing with women in the ministry. There is no getting around it, they are there.
Only in your mind do people ignore passages. Go back and read my previous comments on other threads and go actually read a book or two by Complementarians instead of just listening to the bias that comes out of your Church. You will see that again you are bearing false witness.
As for getting around passages, I don’t think I’ve ever seen you actually offer a full interpretation of any passage of Scripture.
Show me anywhere where you or anyone have dealt with it, then I will concede you have not ignored it. I have looked. I don’t see it dealt with in any discussion we have had. It’s why it is continually dealt with. You believe you are right. Period. I don’t. Period.
Debbie, I noted elsewhere that I wrote a comment that didn’t publish which details where the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has dealt in length with each Biblical personality and passage you threw up. And in much more detail than simply listing them as if the mere mention of each was some sort of slam dunk against Complementarianism (which they are not). But just for the record, you and I have spoken of the difference between prophesy v. authoritative teaching on the Dave’s post on “A Helper Suitable…”: https://sbcvoices.com/a-helper-suitable-for-him-gender-issues-in-genesis-2/ Check out our conversation where I deal with the fact… Read more »
Sorry, Debs, you had another typo. However, I’m always ready to help you out.
This is a pretty accurate representation of what I have said and I don’t deal well with logical comments that are accurate.
Be nice, Joe. I know you Bama fans are still smarting over Auburn’s national championship – you aren’t even #1 in your own STATE.
But try to behave yourself or I will call you a Boston Red Sox fan again.
Actually, I don’t mind the Sox. And yes I was pulling for the Ducks and they couldn’t get it done but rest assured, Bama will be back. 🙂
yep. In this world, evil is always present.
Debbie, I think he is making a good point. How is your hermeneutic any different from the one he mentioned?
You told us that complementarianism could not be true because of your feeling that its not fair, that you should be allowed to do as you please.
I don’t equate women in ministry and homosexuality as effects, but the hermeneutic used is often similar. It is based on “self-actualization” rather than sound hermeneutics.
I’d like to see you attempt to answer DR’s argument, not dismiss it.
No Dave, that is not at all what I said. I did appeal to the Bible in my statements. Reread my comments or I will explain it to you. But that is not what I said. The Bible is the final authority.
What I said was this. We each have the Holy Spirit. God gives each of us gifts. That is all scripture. God leads us, gives us passions. The Complementarian view denies this but it is all through scripture. Deal with this among other passages I gave. I do believe in feelings. I do believe that is how God leads as well. Everything God gives and does is for a reason and how in the world can one say it is sin for a woman to preach the Bible to men and women? It’s just not anywhere in scripture and is… Read more »
“The Complementarian view denies this but it is all through scripture.” When you make a broad brush blanket statement likes this you are either absolutely ignorant of what complementarians teach or you are just downright lying. It is the same with the statements that complentarians don’t deal with “exceptions” in Scripture. If you actually believe that no one has ever dealt with Deborah, Miriam et all then you need to educate yourself. I hope you’re just ignorant and not outright lying. It’s one thing to disagree with someone’s interpretation of scripture but you bear false witness when you claim those… Read more »
Bess: Deal with my argument. I was raised complementarian since I was in grade school. I was one because it was taught to me although I never truly bought it, I lived it. I am well aware of complementarians believe. As for lying. It’s not something I practice so if you would deal with the arguments instead of being dismissive in this manner which I do not ever accept, then we can discuss.
Debbie, you continue to show your ignorance. Obviously what you were “raised” in was the caricuture and straw men that you continue to hold on to. There are whole websites that deal with this issue. The fact that you choose to ignore those and now we can see that you must be intentionally lying to try to defend yourself does not speak well of you or your position.
In 1 Timothy 5:11 Paul writes as if all young widows were not able to control their desires to be married? But is that true? In Titus 1:12 Paul writes as if all were gluttons. But was that true? Paul was addressing certain situations. I believe the same thing applies to the passages given by complimentarians.
Debbie,
This may pass for Scripture interpretation in Enid, but not over here. That is one of the silliest attempts at a defense of an unBiblical position I have ever seen. You might have as well have used 2 Timothy 4:19.
This may pass for Scripture interpretation in Enid, but not over here.
Stop it!!! I’m about to bust out laughing over herer. Stop it!!!
Again dismissive. Yet what I have said is in scripture, the very scripture you say is not here, using scripture interpreting scripture. Let me lay it all out for you and you deal with this instead of being dismissive. Deborah, Miriam, Huldah and Noadiah. All had authority over men. Matthew 28:1-10, the Great Commission was first given to women. Acts 2:1-4, the Holy Spirit empowered both men and women at Pentecost. Romans 16:7 Phoebe, Junia, Chloe, are all called apostles by Paul. Joel 2:28 says that both men and women will prophecy. Scripture interprets scripture. Not to mention that Christ… Read more »
Oh and then we have Anna prophesying over Jesus himself.
And don’t listen to women like Joni Erickson Tada because she has been speaking to both men and women for years. Writing books for both men and women for years. One of many. Anything she has said that is not Biblically true? Yet she is sinning for speaking in churches and arenas to both men and women? Preaching the Word of God? Where is this sin? But it has to be if what you say is correct. Where as she preached heresy?
Why does the order of Christ appearing to women matter to you, if you argue that the order of creation as well as Eve’s temptation (and all Scripture thereon) does NOT matter?
If we use either of these arguments, it should be the one actually applied in other Scripture and not the one inferred from Scripture.
Why does the order of Christ appearing to women matter to you, if you argue that the order of creation as well as Eve’s temptation (and all Scripture thereon) does NOT matter?
(crickets chirping in the background)
Oh, SNAP!!!!
D.R. Randle: This may pass for Scripture interpretation in Enid, but not over here. Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): If ‘over here’ means your church, such may be the case, as is probably the case in some congregations in Enid (over there’) that have beliefs similar to your beliefs. But, I would surmise Debbie is no more speaking for Enid (‘over there’) than you are of Athens (‘over here’), in which there are, in Athens, Christians congregations that affirm women as ministers. Thus, it does hold ‘over here’ (i.e., Athens) and ‘over there’ (i.e., Enid), as it does not hold, as… Read more »
Debbie, Here is another lie: “the very scripture you say is not here” Seriously, why aren’t you convicted that you are bearing false witness? I really don’t understand. Now, as far as each of these cases you mentioned. Perhaps you should do some reading. The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has pages and pages of articles that deal with each situation you mention above. Here are the links: Deborah Miriam Huldah Noadiah Chloe Junia Phoebe Acts 2 Joel 2 By the way, it is another lie to say that Paul called Phoebe or Chloe an apostle. For someone who… Read more »
Joni Eareckson Tada may say she is complementarian, but she lives as an Egalitarian. She speaks to both men and women. The site CBMW is read by both men and women. That to me is hypocritical to preach and write that women cannot teach or preach to men yet that is exactly what those women do. A conference was given recently which housed both men and women at the conference with both men and women speakers.That does not compute with what they teach or preach. And DR once again you dismiss my arguments as garbage without dealing with one of… Read more »
Debbie, Again, you spout more lies. I linked all the articles on the CBMW site for each of the arguments you gave. I linked our discussion on another thread (which you claimed you couldn’t find – it took me all of 4 minutes). You lied when you said Paul called Phoebe and Chloe “apostles”. And you lied when you said I lumped all your arguments together and called them garbage when I only called the one ridiculous argument you made “garbage”. So I have to wonder, do you guys in Enid teach a class on how to lie when you… Read more »
Oh, and as for Joni Eareckson Tada, it seems like once again you really don’t understand Complementarianism, or at least you believe that by pigeon-holing it and building a straw man you can simply knock it down any time someone doesn’t conform to your straw man image. This once again proves that you don’t actually know what Complementarians believe. Perhaps it’s time to read those articles and pick up some books and quit listening solely to the voices of Enid (can I get another scream…).
Debbie, The lie that you told was that “Complementarians never deal with” the arguments you presented earlier. It’s a lie because you and I discussed it previously (which you later denied and now you seem to agree happened). It’s also a lie because you continued to repeat that same mantra even after I told you that the arguments had been dealt with over and over again for the past 30 years. And it’s a lie because you claimed to have read Complementarians previously (which had you, you would have no doubt run into answers to your arguments, given that they… Read more »
“This is why it is so frustrating to try to discuss with you.” I don’t know how many times, how many people, in how many different ways, have tried to explain this to her – first that she demonstrates no understanding of what a true biblical complementenrianism actual is – and that no one can get anywhere or get anything out of trying to communicate with her. Then she ends up pretending -” I just want to talk why are people so mean to me all the time” She’s like dealing with an Asperger kid – who has no idea… Read more »
By “over here” I meant “in this thread” where many capable expositors of God’s Word can see through the garbage of that argument.
D.R. Randle: By “over here” I meant “in this thread” where many capable expositors of God’s Word can see through the garbage of that argument.
Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): Most of my family members are in churches that would not consider women for ministerial positions, for many of the reasons espoused here, but some are in churches that do, but I am unaware that any of my family members would consider the beliefs (and the rationale for such) of other family members that differ on this issue as garbage.
Well, them not recognizing it for garbage doesn’t change the fact that it IS garbage.
Joe: Well, them not recognizing it for garbage doesn’t change the fact that it IS garbage.
Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): The ontology of the positions being what they are, I guess my family members find it useful to express their differences in a manner that does not marginalize or impede conversation.
Norm,
Not every argument used in defense of an Egalitarian position is garbage. But the one that Debbie used here certainly is. And it’s disrespectful of the hard work that both sides do in seeking to interpret the Bible. Drive-by interpretations which amount to suggestions imposed on the text with little to no merit are detrimental to the Church and as such they are garbage.
And that’s your final answer? How much thought that took. Geesh.
It took at least as much thought as you’ve spent reading actual Complementarians. Are you ready yet to admit that you were lying when you said that Complementarians never deal with the passages you mentioned earlier. Or do you want to keep bearing false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ?
D.R. Randle: Norm, Not every argument used in defense of an Egalitarian position is garbage. But the one that Debbie used here certainly is. And it’s disrespectful of the hard work that both sides do in seeking to interpret the Bible. Drive-by interpretations which amount to suggestions imposed on the text with little to no merit are detrimental to the Church and as such they are garbage. Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): We all have differing skills for discerning biblical texts, some more than others, yet for the most skilled among us, dare I say there are probably others with even… Read more »
Norm, Let me ask you one question and after we discuss the issue I bring up, I’ll answer your post. Here goes: What would you say to Debbie, who has continually lied in saying that Complementarians (as well as myself) have never dealt with her arguments regarding the female prophets and the gifts of the Spirit? What would you say to her in the face of mounting evidence that she is not only wrong, but deceptive in her continued attacks on Complementarians? What do you say about her twisting of my use of the term garbage, saying that I “have… Read more »
D.R. Randle: Your thoughts? I’m just wondering why you’ve concentrated on this one small point I made and ignored a mountain of issues in what Debbie has said. Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): For either of you (i.e., any of us) to assert what the other knows, feels, or has done is questionable at best, thus it is better to deal with what has been said and not assert cognitive- or internal-state knowledge or motivation of the other. Such is the domain of the individual and our assessments of such are speculative and should only be asserted with qualifying language (e.g.,… Read more »
DR: I find it interesting that you call me a liar and get so worked up over what? I do owe you an apology because I just now scrolled up to see you linked to articles. I honestly did not see that before. For that I apologize but it is not lying, it is human error. It is hard to follow the comments on this thread as they jump all over the page. I saw your rant today and scrolled up further. I saw the links. I am not a liar. I may be a lot of things but liar… Read more »
Debbie, I don’t know if you saw my note, but there were several comments yesterday that got caught in the SPAM folder here. DR’s was one of them. Several of yours as well. I took them all out and brought them in here.
There was some kind of site glitch – not sure of the cause. I’m an old guy. I know how to type but when it comes to site management, I’m often in the dark.
And as I said before I was raised complementarian since I was young(Independant Baptist and Bob Jones supporting church) in my house we girls were encouraged to speak up for ourselves to anyone and to go for whatever dream we wanted to reach. The sky was the limit. We had the full support of our parents, even when I as an eighteen year old went to confront our then minister for calling a board meeting calling for my discipline based on a rumor that was not true.
I just found three of Joe’s comments in there. I know this – if you put links up, the chances of going into moderation or SPAM folder goes way up.
I’m trying to keep an eye on it.
Yes Dave, I saw the note this morning and so far have had no problems that I know of. Thank you.
Debbie, when I read your comments and your refutations of complementarianism, I almost always say to myself, “But that is not what we believe.”
I think you are often answering a caricature of our doctrine and not what we actually believe.
My reply to that Dave is then what do you believe? Because in my mind if that is not what you believe then complementarian has changed or morphed a lot and it’s then closer to Egalartarian beliefs than complemenarian and so what is the point and all the noise?
Ignore the spelling. 🙂
It couldn’t possibly be that THE GREAT DEBBIE is actually ignorant on what she speaks and owes apologies all around for bearing false witness against complementarians. Oh no not THE GREAT DEBBIE who knows all. How many people have told Debbie she doesn’t have a clue? No there is nothing that THE GREAT DEBBIE needs to learn.
Bess: Ummmm no.
And Bess how about addressing my argument instead of this Jr. High game that I outgrew 40 years ago and address the arguments I am giving. That would be a pleasant change. Everyone gets so emotional on this and they shouldn’t. It’s ridiculous albeit a important discussion, I’m sure I won’t change your mind. But it’s always worth discussing because I think we are dead wrong.
Debbie,
See above in comment #150 for my response to your latest comment to me in this thread. I accidentally hit the wrong “reply” button.
DR: It seems you and I disagree again. You use the word lie like the word heresy. You will have to point out where you and I discussed it in this thread because I do not see it except for the links you put. Now, I am willing to discuss with you but you throwing the word lie around is frustrating to me and frankly making me angry. If we discussed it in another thread I do not remember, I am in many discussions as well as the fact that I had a blog for 4 years that I concentrated… Read more »
Debbie, Earlier (in comment #125) you said the following: Show me anywhere where you or anyone have dealt with it, then I will concede you have not ignored it. I have looked. I don’t see it dealt with in any discussion we have had. It’s why it is continually dealt with. You believe you are right. Period. I don’t. Period. Then in the very next comment, I linked to the discussion. You claimed to have looked for it, but it only took me about 5 minutes to find it. That’s irresponsible. Additionally, something you seemed to ignore above is your… Read more »
DR: How many comments are in this thread alone? I also work and have a life outside of this conversation. If this is how you “win” arguments, sorry but I can’t take your view too seriously when it seems to be all about winning and losing. Attempting to falsely accuse me of lying and then attempting to prove it. There are probably comments I have not seen yet and as Dave pointed out, some ended up in SPAM which I don’t know how you expect me to read those. The truth of scripture gets lost in such drivel. When you… Read more »
I also apologized to you once, I think once is sufficient DR. You want me to gravel evidently or rub my face in it and you can call this pride or just wanting dignity but it’s getting ridiculous. I was wrong and did not see the links. I said this. If you want me to concede on that basis. That’s really poor Biblical exegesis. All you have to do is give me the # of the post where your comments are instead of expecting me to see them. But your calling me a liar expecting me to gravel is downright… Read more »
Debbie, I understand you hate being called out for making a completely false statement, but come on. Making me the enemy here is not helping your case one bit. Bottom line: You made a false and misleading statement (that Complementarians never deal with women like Priscilla, Huldah, Deborah, etc) and you didn’t even take the time to fact check before you did it. It’s not about the links Debbie. It’s about making declarations before you’ve even checked to see if you have a clue what you are talking about. It’s about making false statements like “Phoebe, Junia, Chloe, are all… Read more »
Difference here is this DR. We are Christians with the Holy Spirit in us. Big difference between that and a lost person. This is wanting to spread the Word of God. Big difference between that and sexual desires or world desires. One is building the Kingdom.
If there is such a big difference then why do you seem to use the SAME EXACT argumentation? Why do you argue like “a lost person”?
Read my comment to you above DR. This is another dismissive comment and I think it’s because you cannot effectively deal with my argument. That is usually the case.
Dismissive?
Is that your best attempt at trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you are using the same exact argument that homosexuals use to justify their behavior?
I’m not sure what argument I’m not dealing with, but it seems that you’ve avoided the very clear parallels of your arguments to those in favor of homosexuality. Talk about dismissive.
Well, what do you expect. Debbie believes their are people waling around who are saved that haven’t yet repented from their sins (i.e. they’re practicing homosexuals in relationships with member of their own sex) so of course she’s going to use a similar argument.
Huh? I’m serious DR I do not understand this type of argument which is as old as the hills. I am not being dismissive, I have given scripture when the whole chapter, chapters are read, the interpretation cannot be denied yet you have not dealt with one of them but revert to this argument that is so old that it is older than I am. Deal with scripture.
Debbie, I certainly wouldn’t want to admit that I was using a pro-homosexual argument either. But the fact is that you are. And until you face the fact that existential arguements are worthless and at times even evil, you’re never going to see Scripture plainly. You will always interpret it with an emotional bias. As far as dealing with the passages, I left a lengthy comment which somehow didn’t post. I have it saved on another computer, which I will be able to access later tonight. It will show among other things that both I and Complementarians in general have… Read more »
You will always interpret it with an emotional bias. See, The Debbie’s main problem is that she doesn’t think. She feels things. Nothing gets processed through her brain. It’s all mush. For instance, take a look at this quote: You are right. I do want to read it this way. I want to be able to do whatever I feel God calling me to do and that would include in the church. I do want it to be in the Bible. I do want God’s permission and blessing. You are right, I do not want to believe that God would… Read more »
“” the interpretation cannot be denied””
I’m not sure where this post will end up, but I’m struck by the prideful attitude that this one person thinks that her interpretation is “inerrant,” though I don’t think she gives the Word of God that same treatment.
Now this is garbage.
I have a more important question for you Debbie. I saw a show the other day about John Wilkes Booth, with the claim that he actually lived (someone else was killed in the farmhouse) and that he ended up settling in Enid and, I think, dying there.
You guys buying that?
Nope. 🙂
Garfield furniture here in town was formerly a hotel. Supposedly John Wilkes Boothe lived and died there. We don’t buy it. It makes for good revenue though. 🙂
Really? You guys don’t believe he was the real deal?
No, although I am sure there are a few who may. But I think they are from out of town. 🙂 I am a history purist I think.
I think complimentarianism is right, but I think what Debbie is getting at with her “popcorn verses” comment is the idea of singling out a few verses here and there to substantiate one’s position instead of looking at the broad context of Scripture. I think this is what Jon Zens is getting at as well from what I have read from him concerning this subject. However, after I listened to some of the video that he did on this subject at Enid, I think he might be inconsistent when it comes to his hermeneutical approach to Scripture. He is considered… Read more »
Complementarianism does not use “popcorn verses” – it is a view that uses the whole counsel of Scripture. To throw out a phrase like “popcorn verses” is simply an ad homienum. If you cannot start with a respect for the person and that person’s belief in what Scripture has revealed then there is no point in entering a discussion. When one has to resort to personal attacks and just downright lies to defend your position – than what you’re believing is obviously not able to stand up to debate.
bess: I believe it does. Constantly.
And again you show yourself to either be absolutely ignorant or just downright lying. Which from what we know of you is not a suprise. At all.
And you refuse to take your Bible out and deal with this. Fine, ignoring is something I do quite well. If you can’t talk about the subject, we won’t talk at all. I am fine with that.
For myself, I look at a group like CBMW and their advocacy for a doctrine of ESS (Eternal Submission of the Son), and I realize that they needed to have that doctrine to shore up their positions. I’m not sure what is or is not respected as ‘orthodoxy’ among Southern Baptist people, because I get different points of view from them; but among the Orthodox (RC’s, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.), the doctrine of ESS is not taught. Is the teaching of the subgroup CBMW able to stand on its own merits, or must it lean on the doctrine of… Read more »
I have this from Ben Witherington’s site concerning the origins of ESS: “This novel teaching was first enunciated by G. Knight III in his highly influential 1977 book, New Testament Teaching on the Role Relationship of Men and Women (Baker, 1977)” and this, also from Ben WitheringtonThis new teaching on the Trinity came to full fruition in 1994 with the publication of W. Grudem’s, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Zondervan, 1994). Two chapters in this book outline his doctrine of the eternal subordination of the Son in function and authority. The impact of this book on evangelicals cannot… Read more »
He is simply wrong.
You can argue against ESS, but you cannot pretend it has not been around for a long time.
I’d encourage you to read this article – there is a long section on the history of the doctrine with links to other articles.
Here’s another article you might read. For a knowledgeable person to say that ESS did not exist before 1977 is inexplicable.
If it wasn’t for a certain former blogger who L’s worships because of their extreme moderate/leftward lean, she wouldn’t even know what ESS was. For that matter, she probably couldn’t spell it. She’s just repeating what Don Quixote has said.
Christine, For someone who is Catholic and seems to always look for ways to bring up the Early Church Fathers, you seem woefully ignorant of your own authoritative traditions in regard to the Trinity. From Athanasius to the Cappadocian Fathers, Orthodox Trinitarianism began by separating itself from the Arians in regard to the issue of the Substance of each member of the Trinity (homoousios), not the issue of rank, which all agreed was inherent in the Trinity. The Arians asserted, as you and other Egalitarians do, that rank determines substance. The Trinitarians separated the two and claimed that rank and… Read more »
I was not able to make it to Jon Zen’s lectures, work gets in the way for me at times,so I admit I am not familiar with his books or work.
Deal with the arguments I have given Bess or I will not discuss with you. These things always end up like this and I’m not buying the bait, it’s dismissive, it’s not using the Bible to give your argument fully and it’s just plain ridiculous. Discussion is what I want. I will not respond to ad hominem attacks. I just won’t. Women have been held back by our denomination and yet early in our history that was not the case. I feel we left the Bible for a Fundamentalist position that I honestly do not see as Biblical and why?… Read more »
Debbie, until you stop bearing false witness against complementarians than YOU don’t deserve a response. You are the one who always resorts to adhominuem attacks. And women are not being held back in anything. Again you lie an bear false witness.
Deal with the arguments I have given Bess or I will not discuss with you.
Translation–Agree with me or I’ll just say you’re a hatemongerin’ fearmongerin’ fundy. Come on, Bess, you know if you’re going to play with Debbie it has to be by her rules.
Rule #1–The Debbie is always right.
Rule #2–If The Debbie is wrong, see rule number 1.
It always ends up the same way with her doesn’t it Joe. In the whole history of mankind only Debbie knows how to interpret Scripture and we should all just sit at her feet and worship her and her superior intelligence. she just cannot accept that very sincere intelligent people, Christians who have the Holy Spirit just don’t agree with her. Agree with Debs or you’re eeeevil and don’t know a thing about the Bible
And where does she get her talking points from?? It ain’t scripture, obviously. I mean, we’re going to get banned if we say the name but maybe I can get by with just his nickname–Don Quixote.
Joe: Every point I have made is directly from scripture with references to that scripture. Every single one. Now let me ask you something. SB’s and churches in general used to be segregated, they taught slavery, we were wrong then. Scripture was used. The interpretation was wrong. It used to be taught by churches that women could not work outside the home. That changed again. It was wrong. Scripture was used. That scripture was and is improperly interpreted and again left out entire passages of scripture. It was taught that women could not vote, own land, this was taught in… Read more »
Oh, so since racism was wrong then gender roles MUST be wrong. Yet another page out of the homosexual playbook.
Which translated means, I have no answer for the scripture you gave Debbie.
and Debbie it’s exactly how you conducted yourself here – bearing false witness and attacking those who disagree with – that’s why more and more people are having there eyes opened to who you really are and not wanting anything to do with you. You are incapable of carrying on a conversation with anyone who disagrees with you without lying and attacking.
Which translated means that you are absolutely lying if you think your “arguments” haven’t already been refuted over and over and over again. You just reject it.
Whole websites devoted to refuting your “arguments” and yet you continue to bear false witness claiming nobody can deal with your superior reasoning skills and intellect.
I reject it because I am discerning here and it leaves out the other 98% of the Bible. The Bible does not ever contradict itself. By excluding women I believe we are out of the will of God and this is is seen by the ineffectiveness of the church. It was not that way in the First Century church which was thriving and growing and being used greatly because both men and women were using the gifts God gave fully. I have shown this in scripture. Yes, I reject it because I think all of the Bible is about Christ.… Read more »
So you’re saying Debbie that the Church is ineffective because of Complementarianism. Hmmm… So tell me, is it Satan that is causing so much growth in the Acts 29 Churches? I mean surely all those people who have come to Christ at Mars Hill, The Villiage Church, Journey Church, and Summit Church and dozens of others over the past 10 years must have done so apart from the will of God. And then there’s John MacArthur’s, John Piper’s, Mark Dever’s, CJ Mahaney’s, Alistar Begg’s, and hundreds of other committed Complementarians’ churches which have seemed to thrive and be used in… Read more »
Howdy folks,
I was able to read this helpful link that was provided by good ole Dave Miller [Thanks Dave!]:
https://www.cbmw.org/images/jbmw_pdf/15_2/10.pdf
Based on what I read from Wellum and what Wellum says about Erickson [Wellum disagrees with him BTW], I think these two have set us all a good example of how to discuss this issue in relation to tone and substance.
Thank God for these two men.
Howdy folks,
I was able to read this helpful link that was provided by good ole Dave Miller [Thanks Dave!]:
https://www.cbmw.org/images/jbmw_pdf/15_2/10.pdf
Based on what I read from Wellum and what Wellum says about Erickson [Wellum disagrees with him BTW], I think these two have set us all a good example of how to discuss this issue in relation to tone and substance.
Thank God for these two men.
God Bless,
Benji
I can see it now, I will stand before God in judgment of my sins, which one of them I will answer to is spreading the Gospel to every creature as commanded in scripture. Teaching and preaching to men and women about Christ and the Cross. 🙂 Somehow that doesn’t seem to jive with scripture now does it?
Wow, what a nice red herring. I prefer cherry herring myself.
I’ll try typing this really slowly for you. No one has said ANYTHING about spreading the Gospel to every creature as commanded in scripture. The point is that women cannot serve as pastors, teach men, or lead in the church. And outside of your little band of moderate leaning/CBF loving loonies, the SBC has settled this issue and is complementarian. Good luck with changing it but don’t hold your breath. On second thought, please hold your breath—for as long as possible—maybe even a ltitle longer. 😛
DS: “What unique responsibilities do you think Christian bloggers have?” Joe: “I think first of all a Christian blogger should present a Christian worldview based on God’s word. [I]t is important that we do not come to people with clever words of man’s wisdom as Paul said. I also think we need to demonstrate the love of Christ when dialogueing [sic] with those who disagree with us. We need to have the humility to realize that we can be wrong and the willingness to learn from people.” Joe: “Ok, I will be sending you a bill for the new laptop… Read more »
Norm,
No matter how much you, L’s, or Big Mamma Weave want to make it mean so, I never once meant, suggested, or implied that people who hold to…you know what, never mind.
If something is unbiblical I’ll always hold my breath. Look at our history Joe, nothing is under the heading of never. I have shown that in my comments. But again, you haven’t dealt with the scripture, you haven’t dealt with my arguments. Just say you can’t. There is no harm in saying that. And you aren’t SB so you have nothing to lose by simply admitting it. And the above is exactly what you are saying. If a woman can’t preach and teach men in the church, yet it’s OK outside of the church, that not only is talking in… Read more »
Debbie, why should anyone respond to anything you say. You have declared that only you know anything and everybody else is an idiot so end of discussion.
It’s kinda like someone just wants to beat everybody over the head with her Bible – being as everyone who thinks differently could not possibly know anything about the Bible.
In the meantime L’s is over in another thread spouting off all kinds of unbiblical nonsense.
I plead the fifth on that one. 🙂
No, seriously, I just like to have people think. To see things in scripture that maybe they have not seen before. Passages they have not considered in context. Is it beating someone over the head to use scripture, the very scripture that we should appeal to as the final authority in my argument? To point out passages that are being left out? That’s what teaching is isn’t it? If that’s beating over the head than that is what I am doing. The purpose of Christ’s death wasn’t just to get to heaven, it was to free Christians, men and women.… Read more »
If you think L’s is saying things Unbiblical you certainly don’t need me to correct her. Use your scripture and explain to her(without calling names and other silly tactics that hurt and do not build) why she is wrong. If she doesn’t see it, pray for her.
I think you are using unBiblical tactics here, in fact the Bible isn’t even on the radar with your comments, so I use scripture and try to give what I believe the Bible teaches. It’s called teaching, witnessing, discipleing(sp?).
Debbie, you are the one with the reputation as internet bully so trying to deflect who you are on to others ain’t gonna work. I have demonstrated that I am more than capable of having a civil discussion with those I disagree with. You Debbie, on the other hand continue to show that you have zero respect for anyone who doesn’t bow down to your allegeded supriority in interpreting Scripture. The fact that you will always choose to attack Christians over tertiary issues and not correct a woman who is clearly lost shows your heart. You keep exposing yourself and… Read more »
If you think L’s is saying things Unbiblical you certainly don’t need me to correct her.
Way to deflect there, Debs. The fact is you have AFFIRMED L’s in her unbiblical, unChristian positions for YEARS. Therefore, since you have LIED to her rather than telling her the truth shouldn’t you try to undo some of that and actually share the gospel with her and tell her she’s lost? Oh, wait, don’t tell me, let me guess. L’s is one of those magical people that is really saved but just hasn’t figured it out yet, huh?
You haven’t proven anything with scriptures. You have asserted. Just because The Debbie says “That is what this scripture means” doesn’t make it so. Just like a few weeks ago when you had a bee in your bonnet trying to prove that Mary Magdelene was an apostle because she was asked to give a message to some people–you crawfished on that one after having it shown to you that you were wrong. Just because you claim that those verses that clearly teach that only men can pastor and lead in the church does not make it so.
Here Joe, you’ll like this quote:
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” — MacBeth
Love me some Shakespeare 🙂
I bet they really like that quote in Enid. 🙂
Except that I am using scripture Bess, which you don’t seem to want to deal with, instead you attack, which does not take a lot of thought to do, to try and not answer the passages given which cannot mean anything other than they mean. It can’t be explained away. So it seems you ignore them in favor of name calling. Old Bess, very old.
Debbie, there is no point in talking scripture with you as you have declared everyone else to not be following the Bible. There is no having a reasonable discussion with you as YOU always attack anyone who disagrees with as not knowing a thing about the Bible and you have now adding lying to your attacks. You are doing your same old rants and who is the one that posters are turning away from Debbie? Oh wait Debbie has the approval of those clearly lost, but those who are Christians diasgree with her and she thinks she’s doing something right?… Read more »
Let’s make sure we stay with the discussion of the topic. Sometimes, folks, we stray from commenting on the topics to commenting on the commenters. That seems to take us down the wrong path.
General exhortation for edification!
Of course, Joe Blackmon said he likes the Red Sox, so for the next 3 hours, personal attacks on Joe will be tolerated.
Aye cyamba!!!! Actually, if Alabama’s baseball team were any good I’d pull for them. Since they’re not, the sports not worth watching. That is, unless you pull for a team that tries to buy a World Series every year. Doh!!!!
I do agree there, Joe. The way the Red Sox and Phillies have tried to buy the World Series this year has been despicable.
LOL
Guys feel better now? Good. Just because The Debbie says “That is what this scripture means” doesn’t make it so.. Joe: Tell me how can you misinterpret the meaning of Matthew 28:5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. Matthew 28:6 ”He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. Matthew 28:7 ”Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you… Read more »
Every apostle in scripture is named an apostle. Paul, Matthew, Peter, all of them. You point to ONE SCRIPTURE that gives Mary the title of apostle. One. It isn’t there. Therefore, she was not the apostle to the apostles. He gave her a message to deliver. End of story. No Christian denies that there were women who were used by God over the course of history. You want to attach special significance to these instances where scripture does not. Your objections have been answered by others far more studied than I. If you don’t take their word for it why… Read more »
Debbie, I appreciate your posts here. I must share with you that I have had this argument before with some of the same people you are arguing with now. I find it interesting that you bring scripture to light time and time again, yet no one answers with scripture, just a declaration of your ignorance. They claim to use the whole counsel of scripture but NEVER address the scriptures you quote. At some point you will get tired of arguing with a stump and get tired. They will feel better about themselves and more self righteous than before. My favorite… Read more »
I find it interesting that you bring scripture to light time and time again, yet no one answers with scripture, just a declaration of your ignorance. They claim to use the whole counsel of scripture but NEVER address the scriptures you quote.
Whatever. Those scriptures have been addressed by people much more schooled in exegesis than you or I. Here is a link with plenty of references to poke swiss cheese type holes in any of these so-called “exceptions”.
https://sbcvoices.com/genesis-3-temptation-the-fall-and-gender-roles/#comment-32540
Does the phrase “read ’em and weep” mean anything?
I find it interesting that you bring scripture to light time and time again, yet no one answers with scripture, just a declaration of your ignorance. They claim to use the whole counsel of scripture but NEVER address the scriptures you quote Whatever, Robby. Those passages have been dealt with by scholars far more familiar with them than I ever will be. If The Debbie won’t accept their exegesis then there’s really no need of repeating it here. The link below gives multiple examples of those scriptures The Debbie has supposedly “brought to light”. BTW, she doesn’t bring anything to… Read more »
https://sbcvoices.com/genesis-3-temptation-the-fall-and-gender-roles/#comment-32540
DR posted NUMBEROUS links above where these passages have been dealt with. Therefore, The Debbie’s assertions (she doesn’t prove anything, she asserts) have been answered by people who know the languages and culture better than you, I, The Debbie, or Don Quixote ever will. This idea that The Debbie has appealed to scripture and no one can answer her is a red herring.
Of course, if ‘NUMBEROUS links’ proved anything we would have to concede that evolution is the correct view since there are truckloads more evolution articles and views on the internet than creationist.
Strider,
The accusation that Debbie made was that Complementarians “never deal” with the passages and personalities she brought up. In listing the links, I show conclusively that in each and every instance, Debbie is incorrect that Complementarians “never deal” with her arguments. All she has to do is what she should have done long ago: Actually read what Complementarians have written.
So your statement regarding evolution is simply a red herring. Joe is right, these have been dealt with over and over again – as far back as 30 years ago.
No DR that is not the accusation I made. The accusation I made was that you, Bess, and others did not deal with my argumentation. You personally. I make an argument and I guess you expect me to know what the complementarian argument is. I used to but evidently things have changed somewhat. I am addressing my remarks to you personally not to John MacArthur or others you have linked to, although your links do help me know where you are coming from. But I was getting frustrated because you, DR and others were not answering my arguments. You were… Read more »