Last week, (Oct. 21-22), Southern Baptist Theological Seminary held the 8th Annual Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies Conference on Whitefield and the Great Awakening. This year celebrates the 300th anniversary of Whitefield's birth. Like many Evangelicals, Whitefield (1714-1770) has been a hero of mine as a leader of the First Great Awakening in the 1700s. In my seminary days at Golden Gate, I studied him for an independent study class on evangelism and compared/contrasted the Great Awakening and the Enlightenment and have been familiar with his life, ministry, and influence ever since.
October 1, on The Southern Blog, Jerome Mahaffey said that Whitefield was a model for today's preachers. He spoke specifically about his work to bring Christians together so that they could work across traditional lines of division.
Whitefield brought a message of unification to the world at a time in history where dissenting and secession was the norm. Even while the “democratization of Christianity” was being birthed, Whitefield reminded people of their genuine commonalities. These efforts are still needed as we live in a world where hatred and racism appear to gain ground.
I agree that Whitefield's life was influential, but parts of his legacy led to greater division than he could have ever imagined. I also agree that he affected a great deal of people with the gospel and was influential in creating the environment needed for the colonies to come together and stand for independence against King George. His call for an individual response to the gospel could be seen as laying the groundwork for the idea of individual freedom and the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness (mixed with the influence of Enlightenment philosophy, of course). However, while he called for the “good” treatment of African slaves and while he worked to evangelize them and called upon others to do the same, he also advocated for the legalization of slavery in Georgia in the 1740s-50s when slavery was not allowed there. Whitefield did not just passively accept a horrid practice that was thrust upon him against his will. He actually advocated for it because it would have helped him with the orphanage that he built in Georgia and with economic development of the plantations around the orphanage. No one was more influential than Whitefield at the time. What if he had crusaded against slavery instead of advocating for it? Would the United States have begun differently 30-40 years later? Would we have seen race-based slavery as a sin against God instead of as God's ordained plan? One wonders.
Much of this kind of history has been ignored by white Evangelicals in the past when it comes to the heroes of the faith. We study Southern Evangelical preachers and theologians of the 1800s and 1900s, we look at the formation of the SBC and say erroneously and simplistically that it was about missions (that is like saying that the Civil War was about state's rights), and we harken back to the glory days of growth/baptisms of the SBC in the 1950s and 60s without considering the issues of the day and asking real “what if?” type questions.
For example, what if Baptists in the South had maintained their previous abolitionist perspective of the late 1700s and early 1800s and had not subverted themselves to the larger racist, slave-owning culture of the South by the 1840's? Would they have risen to prominence or would they have died out? Would their influence have served as a prophetic barrier to the break up of the nation over slavery and the carnage of the Civil War? John C. Calhoun, the senator from South Carolina, declared in the 1850 Senate debate on the Missouri Compromise that the breakup of the denominations by 1845 (Baptist, Methodist, and Presbyterian) over slavery predicted the eventual possible breakup of the nation. The Church could not solve the problem so the nation dissolved in a bloody death spiral with over 600,000 fatalities.
If Baptists in the South had been chastened by the defeat in the Civil War instead of baptizing it through “Lost Cause” theology that they interpreted as God's way of purifying them and making them more righteous, would we have had the resulting Jim Crow racism that gripped the South after Reconstruction? Could repentance and reconciliation have happened? Could black and white Christians have come together to build a new society?
If Southern Baptists in the 1950s and 60s, at the height of their cultural influence in the South, had led the way in dismantling segregation laws and in bringing racial healing to our nation, would the Cultural and Sexual Revolutions of the late 1960s and 1970s have happened? Could we have won the Culture Wars before they started by engaging in sacrificial love on racial issues during the Civil Rights Movement while the largest generation in American history (the Baby Boomers) were coming of age? Could we have torn down the entire racist edifice? It could be said that Roe vs. Wade in 1973 was a result of the Sexual Revolution. We were unable to change minds on that issue, perhaps because we were too busy seeking to protect our “way of life” on the race issue. We must also wonder if our massive growth of the 1950s and 60s would have happened if we would have been counter-cultural and prophetic on the Race issue. Would white Southerners have still flocked to our churches en masse (64% of all church members in Alabama were Southern Baptists by 1971 in a state that claimed to be majority Christian) if we would have collectively been telling them that their racial views were wrong and sinful and that they needed to change? We could not do that because we embraced those same views and because it is difficult to get people to take positions when their “way of life” depends upon them not taking those positions (to paraphrase Upton Sinclair).
And, this brings us back to Whitefield. His motivation for calling for the legalization of slavery in Georgia was that it would help him with his orphanage and bring economic development to the surrounding area. He thought that slavery could be done humanely and christianly care for the slaves under consideration. Obviously, he was wrong on every point. But, when we look at his motivation, we see that he took two good things (caring for orphans and economic development) and proposed a very bad thing (enslavement of other people) to enable them to happen. The ends justified the means in the pursuit of a better way of life. Slaveowners would take up this rationale and declare that they could not imagine life in the South without slaves. It just wasn't possible. And, look at the blessings! God would not be blessing us so much if we were wrong! So, therefore it must be ordained by God and it is the Christian duty of the slave to obey his Master. We now look at that thinking as absolute error and heresy. It is the forerunner of the “prosperity gospel.” But, they could not see this at the time because it benefitted them not to see it.
Southern Baptists, fortunately, have recognized these errors, but we have recently begun talking about them in new ways. Thomas Kidd, history professor at Baylor, has a new book out where he explores Whitefield's legacy in both the good and the bad. I have not read it yet, but I have interacted with Dr. Kidd over these issues and am happy that he is looking at the whole picture. The book is George Whitefield: America's Spiritual Founding Father (Yale University Press, 2014). Kidd told me that the advocacy of slavery was discussed at the aforementioned Whitefield conference at Southern Seminary last week by multiple speakers. That would not necessarily have happened in the more recent past, not because we would have agreed with Whitefield on the issue, but because we were blinded to the affect that his advocacy ultimately had.
In addition, Dr. Kidd has authored a 3 week study published by the Gospel Coalition as curriculum in recognition of Whitefield's birth. The topics are 1) Whitefield's Passion for the Gospel, 2) Whitefield's Theology and Break with John and Charles Wesley, and 3) How Could Whitefield Have Owned Slaves? Having looked over the study briefly, it addresses interesting and relevant topics of Whitefield's life and influence and seems to be very balanced.
I recently wrote a book about this overall topic myself: When Heaven and Earth Collide: Racism, Southern Evangelicals, and the Better Way of Jesus (NewSouth Books, 2014), where I explore the aforementioned “What If?” questions and seek to discover where racism in the church came from and how it has morphed into other expressions that still affect us today in our mission and discipleship (such as consumerism/individualism and its offspring) as we often attempt to use God to enhance our own “way of life.” I contrast this with the “Better Way of Jesus,” which is the Way of the Cross and of Sacrificial Love and give many historical examples of how Jesus's way is better.
Southern Baptists have been shaped by our past history and theological positions far more than we often admit. We need our theologians and pastors to better understand and articulate where we have come from so we can reposition ourselves for gospel life and witness in a post-Christian age. I am glad that Southern and the Gospel Coalition are sponsoring events and curriculum that looks more closely at the whole picture so we can unravel what is good from our past and discard what is evil.
Part of engaging in a 21st Century apologetic is being able to answer the skeptic/critic who says, “If Baptists were wrong on slavery/racism in the past and used the Bible to justify their oppression, then why should we listen to you today when you make truth claims on other issues?” That question comes up constantly and we need to know how to answer it. We need to know WHY our Baptist forefathers capitulated to advocating for slavery and racism (basic answer: to beneift themselves instead of dying to self and trusting God), renounce our continued part in the subversion of Christianity in other ways, and we need to heed the warnings of the past so that we do not make the same mistakes on other/related issues in the present-future. This takes thought and humility and an on-going repentance and constant faith in God. It is the fact that we DO take the Bible seriously that makes this repositioning/repentance possible, however, and that also enables us to say to a culture that no longer sees us as an influence that we, too, recognize the price of a 150 year embrace of relational heresy and a lack of trust in God as our Source of life and provision.
I pray that as we consider the legacy of Whitefield's life over the past 300 years that we will thank God for his proclamation of the Gospel while also recognizing that his blindness to the evil growing in America also had a lasting legacy that was deadly. The Church in America owns these scars of division now, both white and black. May we go forward with humility and faith in the God who restores, reconciles, and makes all things new when we turn to Him.
EDIT: I originally attributed Thomas Kidd's 3 week study on Whitefield to The Gospel Project. It was published by The Gospel Coalition. My error.
Really good stuff, Alan. You should write a book on the topic.
This line, “…subverted themselves to the larger racist, slave-owning culture.”
That is the key. You could fill in the blank and that describes one of the church’s biggest problems. “Subverted themselves to the larger __________ culture.”
Excellent stuff.
Good article, Alan. Lot’s of food for thought.
Man – you work hard on these, don’t you?
Thanks Alan for the article. It reminds us of the good, bad, and ugly in the lives of people, leaders, and our nation. I’ve just got time to mention one thing and it concerns a group of Baptists in the South referred to as the Sandy Creek Baptists. By 1835 the Sandy Creek Baptists of the South were against the practice of slavery, advising churches “to exclude members who will not abandon the practice, after the first and second admonition.” (Purefoy, pp163-64). They practiced church discipline in this area. Most were poor farmers and sharecroppers with bi-vocational pastor/farmers. Just mentioning… Read more »
Sadly, all of our heroes of the faith have feet of clay. Whitefield, being a big agent in the 18th century, had big feet of clay, and his take on slavery in Georgia made the son of the proprietor of Georgia Colony furiously mad at the Evangelist for supporting the introduction of the great evil of slavery. And yet, Whitefield was one of the first ministers to include the African Americans in his evangelist effort, winning them to Christ and recognizing them as truly converted. Whitefield’s efforts which were directly germane to the First Great Awakenings also suffered from the… Read more »
Dr. JW
well said and valid point. Even if it were not I would not ale issue with you on this subject since you have forgotten more that I will ever know about this sort of thing. Now if there were only some way to turn that into a paycheck 🙂
Dear Rev. Payton: (that name appears on my ordination paper for some reason of other). You can take issue with me anytime as no one is sacrosanct, lest of all yours truly. Opposition is never easy, but it must be endured, if we are ever to arrive at the truth. When a view endures the vicissitudes of criticisms, it becomes all the more valuable. Reckon it will confuse them about the name on the ordination papers?
Dr. JW
I agree push back is always good, however, I try to realize when I am in over my head. I learned a long time ago not to try to match wits with you.
Re. confusion about the name. I was thinking today that that other Payton, 70 years ago about this time, was preparing to go through the Bulge with Patton’s Third Army to relieve the 101st Airborne. Used that in a sermon illustration this morning. the march started on Dec 16, 1944.
D.L.: I want you to know that I consider it an honor to have your father’s name on my ordination papers. He was such a quiet, kindly person, one would never suspect that he was a warrior in the first wave ashore at Omaha beach and that he had that determination and drive that carried him through the Battle of the Bulge with two friends dead and frozen feet. He is missed by many who knew him,a nd our world can ill-afford to do without him. And as to crossing swords, I would warn my fellow bloggers on the SBC… Read more »
Dr. JW We miss many of the Great Generation. I wish their ideals, morality and work ethic still gripped us today. Re. Dr. Vaughn, I was in a class of 10 (small for SWBTS at that time) my last year in seminary who read the book of Ephesians in Greek with Dr. V. That is one of the classes I am teaching (senior level) during the spring semester. Guess who’s notes I will be using. I have his old Sunday School Board Study Course book on Ephesians, it is a classic. I would use it as a text if it… Read more »
Dear Brother: I shall never forget your Dad, one of the quietest, finest men I ever knew. He was a great example of the fine deacon body of Calvary Baptist Church in St. Louis, like Brother Harvey Stricker just to mention one. During the period from 1948-1959 that church put more boys and girls into the ministry and mission field than any other church in the Southern Baptist Convention during that period, according to what I heard over 55 years ago. I have a book in my collection given to me by Brother Judson Clement, another of the fine men… Read more »
Dr. JW
Dr. Vaughn was among the finest Professors I had. And that is coming from the mouth of a Trad. He had a fantastic grasp of the New Testament especially the nuances of the Greek Text.
The hardest part of my dissertation-related research was coming to grips with the sins of our forefathers on this question. Southern Baptist historians with a conscience face three options, I think: 1. Whitewash over the problem and pretend that everything was OK. 2. Expose the problem and ONLY the problem, cutting these people out of the herd and pretending that they aren’t a part of your spiritual family tree. 3. Realistically identify the problem, consider where they went wrong, try to learn from it, and try to celebrate what they did right. Let’s face it: Far from applying solely to… Read more »
Dr. Bart
Good analyzation. Number three seems the only viable option. In all candor my greater concern is not my forefathers. There is much in our history both ecclesiastical and secular that no one wants to have tattooed on their forehead. My greater concern is the present. While progress has been made there is still a long way to go and we are moving very slowly.
Bart: You have a good take on the matter. Take Black History, for example. They often reminded Americans about the need to put into practice the principles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, but some of them owned slaves. And I do not refer to cases where a man or woman owned their spouse, a way of getting them out of slavery. No, there was even a case in South Carolina, which Black Folks told me about, where a Black man was married to a White woman and owned 200 slaves (a fact that never made it into… Read more »
What can be done to atone for our ancestors sins? I ask this in relation to the repeated public floggings that have taken place in the last 50 years. Perhaps if we continue to publicly humiliate ourselves our collective white guilt will be removed.
It’s interesting, Wilbur: Alan and I just the other day spent an hour on Twitter trying to defend the idea that anybody ought to listen to what Southern Baptists say about homosexuality in light of the SBC reputation on race. I’m interested in this subject not because of “white guilt” but because it affects our work today.
Dr.Bart
Great question. Let me purpose something. We spend to much time talking about what SB say/do/believe. Working collectively can have an impact obviously. The stronger impact is not what the collective SB say/do/ believe, but what individual local pastor/churches say/do/believe. You have great influence in your community. Others do also. Each pastor and church influencing their community will bring more influence and change than collective SB action, meetings, resolutions etc.
And permit me to clarify how it affects our work: WE need to know what Alan is teaching, because it shows that what happened with Southern Baptists and racism in the 1860s is NOT equivalent to our refusing to endorse same-sex marriage; rather, it is the equivalent to our caving in to the demands of the sexual revolution. Southern Baptists who had been anti-slavery caved in to a slaveo-wning culture in exchange for money and cultural influence. Southern Baptists are tempted today to cave in to the sexual revolution in exchange for money and influence. Telling the story of our… Read more »
All of that is exactly right, Bart. I am not trying to throw out all of the good. However, I am also not convinced any longer that our forefathers didn’t know what they were doing. There were many witnesses. Those who say that there were Southern Baptists calling for change (and they are right) makes the whole situation even worse. The fact that Muslim Tunisia outlawed slavery in 1848 and that abolition was happening all over the world shows just how isolated the American South was becoming. Why did the church go along with it? I have not even mentioned… Read more »
Wilbur, The “white guilt” issue comes up with posts like this. My readings and family research over the few years has given me a different take. I see no need to indict all “white people” with Southern roots with the guilt and ghost of slavery. Here is a quote from the research of Armisted L. Robinson: “Most Americans, no doubt, imagine the prewar South as a region so thickly dotted with immense plantations on which most of the black and white populations worked and lived. But, on the contrary, while slaves made up 40% of the total population of the… Read more »
I found that my ancestors owned slaves AND fought in the Civil War. 4 brothers fought for the 17th Mississippi Cavalry Regiment at Vicksburg and such places. But, that line goes all the way back to 1623 in America and they were Virginia and North Carolina planters with large estates and slaves up until the move to Mississippi in 1850. While you are right that the majority did not own slaves, the racism that supported slavery was adopted by rich and poor whites alike. After Bacon’s Rebellion in Jamestown in 1676, there was a concerted effort to make race and… Read more »
It should be noted that the ruling class used racism to keep Blacks and Whites lower on the economic scale from getting together. Even after the war, this was the means, by way of segregation, of keeping the poor Whites from even thinking of working with poor Blacks. The same could be said of the Middle Class. Once the brainwashing began to break down, things began to change. Much of our thinking, even about our wars, is the result of brainwashing techniques used by our government, and even more by the folks behind the scenes who also make use of… Read more »
What a great topic for reflection and discussion. We should not run away from these topics. We should not obsess over them, but being conversant and charting a positive course for the future always needs to be part of the conversation. We could easily identify the sins of the past of our own forefathers and those of others. I wonder how far back we should go? Slavery is not a big topic in the New Testament – Jesus, Paul, Peter et al. did not address the topic of ending slavery. Do they share in any complicity? Surely the members of… Read more »
That is exactly the point. We have our own issues. I am not trying to point the finger, but learn. As for the early Christians and slavery, NT teachings dismantled the practice philosophically. And, I think that Paul directly confronted the support structure beneath it in Gal 3:26-29. He confronts all of Aristotle’s categories in his Natural Slavery philosophy that was spread all over the world by his pupil, Alexander the Great. Paul reiterates this direct confrontation with the slave system in Col. 3:11. Southerners were digging up Aristotle to defend their slavery ambitions and were subverting Paul to him.… Read more »
Interesting comments indeed, Louis.
I cover all of that about the Greek influence and Gal/Col in chp 4 of my book, by the way.
Please allow me to add some historical context to Mr. Cross’s post: “that is like saying that the Civil War was about state’s rights” While slavery was a triggering cause of the war, the states certainly believed it was their decision, not the Federal Government’s, to decide for themselves whether or not to keep slavery. You cannot imply that the war was not about states rights. “His motivation for calling for the legalization of slavery in Georgia was that it would help him with his orphanage and bring economic development to the surrounding area. He thought that slavery could be… Read more »
Ken P., You represent the historic Southern Partisan position well. I am very familiar with it and it has been articulated for years in much the same way as you list it here. When I was younger, I used to believe it myself. Further study has caused me to reject the merit of that position. I do not deny that much of what you say is what people in the South thought. I am just saying that I don’t think it was right. As for Whitefield supporting the Biblical merit of slavery, my perspective is that what he supported was… Read more »
African slavery was founded on kidnapping, something expressly forbidden by the bible. To suggest that the bible is somehow ambiguous on the slavery practiced in the US is preposterous. We can find “support” in the bible for practically any sin we wish to hang on to.
Bill Mac.
I did not mean to imply that slavery was ambiguous or allowed by the Bible, but that many people, including George Whitefield, thought that way. All American Christians bear the responsibility for slavery, both north and south.
Ken: I’m not sure how all American Christians bear responsibility for slavery. Certainly Christians holding an anti-slavery view (regardless of their geographical location) aren’t responsible for slavery. I don’t know much about Whitefield. I’m sure he was a good guy in some respects, but suggesting that slavery isn’t so bad to those born into it is monstrous. It could only come from the lips of someone who was not a slave. It is instructive to note that further down in that same quote, Whitefield claims that no hot country (like Georgia, apparently) can be cultivated without negroes, and he bemoans… Read more »
“Yes, he advocated treating them kindly, but no more than a farmer treats his cattle or horses kindly.”
Might that be a bit presumptuous?
Tarheel: No, I don’t think so. Consider Whitefield’s words: However this be, it is plain to a demonstration, that hot countries cannot be cultivated without negroes. What a flourishing country might Georgia have been, had the use of them been permitted years ago? How many white people have been destroyed for want of them, and how many thousands of pounds spent to no purpose at all? He clearly doesn’t value the life or liberty of “negroes” as much as that of whites, and sees them primarily as a means of prosperity, along the same lines as people who want horses… Read more »
I’m just asking this is a question not making a statement. I am no way support slavery – but I also would think that The issues surrounding all of that were much more complex then we sometimes make them out to be with the benefit of hindsight. Is it possible that he felt that by taking them in he was in a way protecting them….I admit it’s hard looking back for me to imagine someone thinking that way – but in that context is it not possible? Perhaps he”willed” them to someone else whom he felt would also treat them… Read more »
Did not slave owners have the authority to free their slaves? I think if you read the whole letter, you will see that his primary motivation is money and prosperity. Yes, he was a kinder slave owner than most, but honestly the issues are not that complicated. He owned slaves that he readily admits were immorally obtained, but says hey, it’s too hot for white folks to work the fields so our hands are tied. He actually bemoans the hardships that white people endured before they could get their hands on negroes of their own, and what a great place… Read more »
Slavery was a practice of many nations; it is still going on in some of the Moslem countries, according to what I have read. When America began, we were under the British empire, a king was in control although some rights had been won and recognized by populace. Our society was a class structure, King, nobles, middle class, and the masses, mostly peasants. The nobles were addressed as Lord by tenants as well as others who were in a lower class. This class structure, absent the King after the Revolution, continued in the South long after the Civil War. Some… Read more »
Alan
I believe you prior position on this issue is the superior position
Alan,
Your article is very well written and the points you make are well taken, however from a practical standpoint what do we do with it?
In my mind I cannot logically connect our ancestors acceptance of slavery with the current homosexual debate.The reason few are taking our position seriously is because we lack credibility,,,,not because of attitudes of a hundred years ago. The two cannot be reasonably connected.
wilbur
Many people are saying that because we were wrong in the past on slavery, we are likely wrong now.
I am pointing out WHY we were wrong in the past – because we tried to benefit ourselves and we twisted Scripture to support the position that would cause us to be accepted or that would benefit us. Whitefield fell for that temptation when he advocated for slavery to benefit his orphanage.
We should beware of the same temptation today on other issues.
I think to reasonable people “we” lack credibility on issues related to homosexuality, not because of what our ancestors did hundreds of years ago with slaves, but because “we” are inconsistent with regard to sexual immorality in our churches, in our preaching, and with those practices which we condemn.
well said
Alan, that truly is the issue. Credibility gets wrecked quickly. All human hearts will twist the scriptures to suit the need; Whitfield, as well as all of us are never out of that arena in this world at this time. In my short stint on earth, I am strained to remember a time when race baiting has been at a higher level in America. Its a tender box of racially colored language from the pulpit to the streets. Religious facades make preaching almost cover a multitude of sins….such as the ways of Whitfield, when you think about it, is not… Read more »
Alan
I am struggling a little to find relevance and applicability as it relates to today’s issue. What are the stats on “many people”. How many of those who reject our counsel on the current issues even know who Whitfield is. Perhaps I am not tracking with you.
We can certainly learn from our mistakes. Historically we interpreted scripture to protect our interest and that must be avoided. However, using our history as a way to discredit out contemporary positions..I am not sure.
I was thinking the same thing about what to do practically with your article, Alan. Your articles is very well written and very thought-provoking, but it doesn’t really tell us more than what we pretty much already knew. Yes, it provides more details, that I was not familiar with particularly Whitfield’s accommodation/advancement of slavery To accomplish the good and godly end of building an orphanage, but we all know that many of our our ancestors were to one extent or another racists and some held slaves. We, most of us anyway, understand that the end, does not justify using wrong… Read more »
Tarheel, Why study history at all? What is the point of talking about Whitefield’s life on any level, then? I have been pretty clear about the practicality of what I am getting at. It is interesting to me that when this topic come up we quickly hear people say, “Why revisit the past?” and “Why talk about this incessantly?” Well, I don’t know that we DO talk about it that much. Not nearly as much as say, Calvinism. But, the practicality of it goes in many different directions. History is political and it is social. It is also theological. How… Read more »
Alan: “20% of SBC churches (10,000) are majority-minority churches. There is a major disconnect there.”
To those of us whose age enables them to remember church sit-ins, doctrinal statements that included segregation, and a lily white denomination, 20% is an astounding figure.
William, we have seen huge progress in church plants and in inviting ethnic minority churches to join us. But, we are seeing barriers to those leaders moving into SBC leadership. Those barriers are primarily relational and are based on past separations. I do not think that they are a result of active racism. So, history is in play more than philosophy or theology.
Yes, we are making progress and I am very glad. I know where we once were. I am just wanting to see the progress that we have/are making be actualized. We’ll get there.
William
As a young pastor I never thought i would see the 20% day.
Alan, Thank you for writing this. BTW I ordered your book months ago, read it and greatly appreciated it. A question. You said, “82 of 83 of the trustees of the Executive Committee are white. 20% of SBC churches (10,000) are majority-minority churches. There is a major disconnect there. If you don’t think that that present reality has anything to do with what happened in the past, I really don’t know what to say.” If I am understanding what you say here, 1 of 83 EC trustees (slightly over 1%) is an a non white (African American?). But 20% of… Read more »
Alan, I got distracted and didn’t ask, what are some ways forward to having more than 1 of 83 EC trustees be minority?
Les
Totally different subject….what happened to our Cardinals??
“Christians were on the wrong side of history then, and they’re on the wrong side of history with regard to homosexuality.” (And like phrases) I too have encountered that mantra, in my discussions with lost people. Particularly when they are trying to justify on the sexuality. Honestly, I have found that just about any excuse will work for people who do not want to accept the word of the Lord. It’s a common refrain. The thing is I’m just not sure we can answer it to satisfaction of those espousing it. One, I think it’s rooted in a rejection of… Read more »
So, are you saying that the study of history/church history has no value to us in the present day for example, warning, and present application? Should we ignore history? Or, should we just ignore history when it has to do with racial issues? “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” – Edmund Burke, George Santayana, et al. You are right. We disagree here. You said: “One, I think it’s rooted in a rejection of God, and we have no actual ability to overcome that other than just sharing the truth and let the Holy Spirit do his… Read more »
“So, are you saying that the study of history/church history has no value to us in the present day for example, warning, and present application? Should we ignore history? Or, should we just ignore history when it has to do with racial issues? “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” – Edmund Burke, George Santayana, et al. You are right. We disagree here.” Um, we would disagree if that is what I said. Strangely though you asked me a question – and then proceeded with your presumption of my answer as if I had said it. Of… Read more »
Tarheel, I agree that we should not talk about this incessantly. Believe it or not, I wrote this book but have never preached on it directly on a Sunday at my church, though I have preached on multiple themes found in it. . I spent 5 weeks on Wednesday nights talking about it and two sessions on Sunday nights, but that is about it. I preach about a lot of other things. I write about other things, too. Take a look at my blog. I guess that I am not sure what you are talking about when you are saying… Read more »
Of course I believe you – there is no reason to say ‘believe it or not’…you seem like an honest dude.
It does seem that you post on this topic when you post on voices – but that could just be perception -which, admittedly is not always reality.
Maybe I should start reading your blog. 😉
I write about this and immigration, mostly, when I write here. I also wrote about the Executive Committee trustee meeting last month because I went there to speak to my motion on ethic participation in SBC leadership. So, yes, this issue has become a theme of mine over the past year of so on this blog, primarily because of the book. But, I write about other things too and my preaching/ministry hits on a lot of different topics. I write on this here because I did the research over several years and when I see something related to it, I… Read more »
Tarheel: Why should we never forget and continue talking about this, because it has not been that long ago that these things occurred and the SBC did not acknowledge their occurrence until the last 20 years ago and then only mildly.
The statistics Alan gave are not that great for 2014.
I am glad Alan wrote a book about it, is talking to groups about it and continuing the conversation here.
I also don’t know what to say to your comments except wow. Just wow.
Tarheel: To add one more, I think racism is still alive and well today among our churches, towns, men, women. It is always interesting to me that children naturally are about themselves, throw temper tantrums, do things wrong without being taught, yet skin color and racism is something they must be taught and does not come naturally. Skin color means nothing to a child.
Debbie Regarding “…the SBC did not acknowledge…”, you and I, as demonstrated by our prior conversations have different views on the SBC issue. While I understand your meaning I still must insist the the SBC is, at it vital point, individual churches, not one conglomerate. The SBC is/does what the individual churches are/do. One cannot congratulate or castigate this entity with one broad stroke brush. Many churches have made great strides in the area of race on a church by church basis. Each church affecting (or is it “effecting) their own community. Case in point. The church I pastored in… Read more »
Debbie, “Tarheel: To add one more, I think racism is still alive and well today among our churches, towns, men, women. It is always interesting to me that children naturally are about themselves, throw temper tantrums, do things wrong without being taught, yet skin color and racism is something they must be taught and does not come naturally. Skin color means nothing to a child.” Hate is a natural result of the fall. It does not have to be taught… while the manifestation of unchecked or encouraged hatred takes is largely learned by children and yes, adults – the sin… Read more »
Alan, “I write on this here because I did the research over several years and when I see something related to it, I am motivated to write. Spend 5 years writing a book on a topic and you’ll understand. :)” I am way too ADHD for all that! I do admire you for your work on your book and clearly your research has impacted your, to use your word, “themes”…and that is cool. In fact, it is more than cool. Like I said, I think we agree on more than we disagree – certainly we both love the same Lord,… Read more »
Wilbur, I agree
Alan I do agree that history is important if for no other reason than I was a History major in college. I also agree that we can learn from history. I agree that understanding History can help us avoid making mistakes in contemporary times. However (you knew that word was coming 🙂 ), I think we have had enough study, conferences, meetings, articles, blogs etc. It is time for ACTION. I dare say that the vast majority of Christians and non Christians alike know that racism is evil regardless of how it came about and its historical nuances. It is… Read more »
Anyone ever read the old “Slave Narratives”?
Yes, indeed. I found a narrative by a very old woman in my home town who recounted some of her slave experiences when she was a girl owned by “Massah Billy” my GG-grandfather. Seldom will any of us who have long roots in the American south be able to uncover any personal details of such things. It was quite interesting. The narrative was a couple of decades before I was born, remembering a time almost a century before I was born. While I understood that some of my ancestors owned slaves, and many, many were CSA veterans, being able to… Read more »
“We always sanitize history and heroes. I have no objection to being reminded of their flaws and failings.”
Absolutely agree. Heck, sometimes we don’t even wait for them to die before we do so.
Great article, Alan. I commend you both for your research and your analysis.
John
“We need to know WHY our Baptist forefathers capitulated to advocating for slavery and racism (basic answer: to beneift themselves instead of dying to self and trusting God), renounce our continued part in the subversion of Christianity in other ways, and we need to heed the warnings of the past so that we do not make the same mistakes on other/related issues in the present-future.” This is such a good point. Thanks for this article, Alan. I hadn’t ever stopped to analyze why and how pro-slavery Christians came to their conclusion. And interesting thoughts on Whitfield taking a good desire… Read more »
Alan, thanks for the article. Very helpful thoughts. I wanted to share a recent experience that might also be of some use to someone. I was recently in a discussion with a liberal friend of mine over the issue of homosexuality and the Bible. He doesn’t believe in inerrancy any more, but he used to when we were younger, so he kind of knows where I stand. So he threw out the argument that you can’t use the Bible to condemn homosexuality because in history Christians have used the Bible to condone evils such as slavery. As I replied to… Read more »
Bob, you said: “I explained to him that while he was correct that professing Christians had distorted the Bible to condone their sin, that it appeared to me that the analogy of slave-owners twisting Scripture better fits the liberals of our day condoning homosexuality. They distort the clear teaching of the Bible in order to avoid social, economic, and political struggles. Rather than standing for truth they take the easy way out and make the Bible fit with the secular culture.” Yes, Bob. That is what I have found. The course of logic and thinking of the slaveowners is reappearing… Read more »
I’m definitely going to have to check out the book Alan, though reading it any time soon may be a challenge as I’ve just recently begun my MDiv.
FYI, I grew up on a farm outside of Selma, where my parents still live. I live and work in Mississippi now but next time we’re back over that way we may try to come visit you in Montgomery as I’ve really profited from your articles here.
God bless,
-Bob B.
Sounds good, Bob. Would love to talk more. Like any first-time author, I definitely want people to read the book. That is great. But, if people just buy the book and don’t read it, I am not totally unhappy with that either. 😉
Actually, the best thing about writing the book has been the discussions about it. That is why I wrote – to provoke conversation with others and to find answers.
I very much enjoy Alan Cross talking about Maxwell AFB and places near my hometown. As a 62 yo I lived most of what he is talking about. I was in the River Region last week on family matters and my history shimmers in the Alabama sunlight. I accepted Christ in an SBC church and spent some time in an IFB type church that thought the SBC was liberal apostates in 1964.
Dear SBC Voices, I like much of what I have read here at SBC Voices, you do a great service to the SBC by discussing the issues facing our denomination. As a recent alumnus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, I think I have PPP-TS (Post-Paige Patterson Trauma Syndrome). I have a lot to say about my time at SWBTS and my thoughts about the state of the SBC today. My book on my experiences at SWBTS and the SBC is coming out soon. Anyone interested on hearing the first-hand experience of a student at a Southern Baptist seminary and cooperative… Read more »
Lee,
It’s for the best for SWBTS and the SBC that you chose to move on. I will not waste my time or money buying your book. Goodbye.
Volfan,
Dude, what an absolute jerky thing to say.
You’re not a jerk, come on.
Actually Tarheel, the “jerk” thing to do is to invade a comment stream and post something that has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. That is selfish, egotistical, and the very definition of “spam”. And I say that as someone who likely would fall in the “PP did wrong, trustees are not doing their jobs” camp.
Yeah, I don’t disagree with that that, SV – he should’ve picked another thread to put that in – but do two wrongs make a right? I Guess having spent over 20 years working with teenagers and young people I get a little defensive when I feel that A young person is being scolded. That actually happens a lot on the site – all the comments of “when you get older you’ll understand”, or “When you get older your opinion will be valid ” annoy me. It also annoys me that when “older” ministers criticize and critique “younger ministers” blogs… Read more »
Actually, Tarheel,
This was the “jerky” thing to say:
“As a recent alumnus of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, I think I have PPP-TS (Post-Paige Patterson Trauma Syndrome).”
Again, I don’t disagree. I don’t agree with the way and attitude he phrased everything he said, but again two wrongs don’t make a right.
Tarheel,
Did you go to the blog that Lee hotlinked, and read what he wrote. I did. I’m just responding to what he said. The SBC and SWBTS is better off without people with the attitude of this man. He wanted to leave, and he wanted to throw some parting shots at us. He also was using this comment thread to try to sell some of his books, which I’m sure is full of more of his “philosophy.”
David
I had not at the time that I’ve made a comment to you – and I still stand by what I said to CB that I don’t agree with the tone in which he said what he said but I also think that your tone was out of line as well. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Vol, I don’t think it is “jerky” at all. Against my better judgment, I read the post in the link. It was like watching late night T.V. years ago — all reruns. Same tune, same lyrics, different singer. He actually hit a nerve when he implied he suffers from PTSD. He uses words like “militaristic,” but I’d bet he doesn’t know what it means to serve–and certainly doesn’t know what PTSD is all about. But, that is probably just a personal reaction. The only thing I’d be interested in knowing about his “book” is who publishes it. My guess is,… Read more »
Thanks, Jack.
David
Lee
No thank you. As a 2014 grad you are not seasoned enough to make valid evaluation and commentary.
DL,
That’s kind of an uncharacteristic comment from you. The man has nothing valid to say because he’s presumably young?
Tarheel
Thank you for the correction. My dismissal was uncalled for and in poor taste. Sometimes my mouth moves before my head engages.
Lee please accept my apologies for my ill chosen words. I am truly sorry.
I’m glad I never mess up like that DL. 😉
Too bad you are bitter dude,… as the Apostle Paul encouraged,…count it all joy! Just remember, fundamentals are requirements for good stewardship, and don’t be a fundamentalist without a way to back up the fundamentals. In other words, some guys that are labeled fundamentalists are not all that fundamental.
Chris
Interesting comment. You may be on to something there.
yep… sometimes mislabeled fundamentalists are really those men that take a liberal view of the scriptures and try to teach those methods as fundamental,…. an onset of bitterness typically comes from not knowing the difference between fundamentalist views that are less than scriptural, with those of exegetical precision. Leadership is judged well on that basis.
“In other words, some guys that are labeled fundamentalists are not all that fundamental.”
Yep.
I have noticed that myself
Having read Lee’s blog, it seems obvious to me that he is zig sagging from one extreme to another. He has yet to grasp the reality that the biblical precepts/truths/doctrines are two-sided and apparently contradictory on purposes, that they are designed to produce a tension in the human mind so one can respond to any particular situation that arises. The tension enables one to be balanced, flexible, creative, constant, and magnetic. Out of that tension one responds appropriately to any given situation, the particular response that that situation requires under God. Otherwise, one is forever shooting off at a tangent.… Read more »
Lee,
I’m sorry you were hurt so badly during your experience at Southwestern.
I too have had times in my life where I struggled with anger and bitterness as a result of life’s frustrations.
I understand, and rather than chastise you – I will pray for you. I mean that sincerely.
I do hope that you are able to move past and forgive those who have hurt you so badly.
I’m also sorry that you and your comments have been so summarily dismissed by some on this blog.
Lee,
Might I suggest you take your comments over to a discussion where they might fit in more closely?
https://sbcvoices.com/whom-should-seminaries-educate/
“I understand, and rather than chastise you – I will pray for you. I mean that sincerely.” Why not just do both? I am sure that is what Paul did for Peter as did Jesus do for Peter. There is no doubt that the Father chastises those He loves. I appreciate those who have and still do chastise me. I also know they pray for me. The guy needed chastising for his rude comments. He got it from Vol. Tarheel, is there an implication in your statement that you will pray for Lee wherein you believe Vol will not? I… Read more »
Oh it is?
Interesting.
🙂
I agree, but Mike the first time I’ve been more effective with a little softer touch then a complete dismissive disrespectful comment.
*Might the first time…
Not Mike…lol
Tarheel
a lot of valid points are being made here as it relates to chastising/praying for/mentoring etc. One point stands out to me. I have a number of issues with what Lee has written, attitude etc. However, because of my negative first time interaction, I have pretty much destroyed any chance of having a meaningful productive conversation with him. Hence nothing is affirmed, resolved, or advanced in the discussion.
Oh, I’m not so sure. We all make mistakes. Apologies go a long way. If he ever post here again and chooses not to interact with you it will certainly be his loss. I know I’ve learned a lot from you.
Tarheel, You think I talked to Lee too strongly. In my head, I was just stating it as a matter of fact statement. You know, “Lee, if you don’t like the SBC and SWBTS, then leaving is the thing you need to do. And, you really didn’t need to come in here, and throw grenades at Dr. Patterson, SWBTS, the SBC, and Bible believing Christians. And, it looked like he was trying to push his book, which is soon coming out!!!! To promote his new found liberal ideas. I thought he needed to be asked to just leave, if that’s… Read more »
Tarheel
You are very gracious my friend.
CB,
You are right, Brother. NOthing…and, I mean nothing… would thrill my heart more than to hear that this fella had come back to the truth. I would rejoice with the angels of Heaven, if Lee were to tell us that he was gonna love the Lord, and believe the Book, and be a witness for the Lord. My heart would overflow.
CB, God bless you, Brother. You are a friend that I have grown to appreciate and love in a deep way.
DAvid
Vol, on a completely different subject…how about those Vols?!
Les,
How bout those Vols!! I nearly jumped thru my ceiling when we scored to tie the score, and go into OT. And then, to win the game!!! Well, let’s just say that the paramedics had to be called.
Woooooooo hooooooooooo! Go Big Orange!
David
Partially related, see this article from BP: http://www.bpnews.net/43637/liele-1st-baptist-missionary-from-america
Interesting to note is that Whitfield comes up here as being responsible for Liele’s slaveowning.
Yeah that is an interesting article.
Also found it interesting that Leile himself also owned slaves.
If we are going to say that owning slaves, always means that the slave owner was a racist – as we understand that term today – what does that mean blacks themselves to owned other blacks as slaves?
Just to return to the issue of Whitefield, I would like to point out that the Awakenings which occurred under his preaching (and they were acknowledged to be such by his contemporaries, and if he was so bad, theologically, why did he choose John Wesley to preach his funeral, and why did Wesley preach it? A good sermon by the way, but that is remembering from nearly 40 years ago.). His preaching provided a conversion experience common to people in many parts of the colonies, a factor in the uniting of the colonies for the American Revolution. Also I should… Read more »