At times, Baptists from Texas have been known to cause a ruckus in SBC life. It was about 40 years ago that Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler were forming plans for a revolution in the Southern Baptist Convention. Yesterday, news dropped that a Texas megachurch pastor aims to make serious waves in the SBC – but with a wholly different approach than Pressler and Patterson.
Jack Graham, pastor of Prestonwood Baptist, through one of their staff, announced that the church would be withholding their Cooperative Program giving, one million dollars annually, until they’re more satisfied with the leadership and direction of the SBC. We’re tempted to be shocked by this action because of the number of zeros that accompanies the financial figure. But the real story here is that a former SBC President has chosen such a destructive tactic to strong-arm change in our cooperative ministries. That’s a serious charge. And I plan in this article to explain why the charge is not overstated.
This Tactic Is Destructive to SBC Cooperative Work
Pressler and Patterson showed the way to affect change in SBC life. They worked through the bylaws and convention processes to win a majority of committee and trustee spots in order to affect change.
It’s a good thing for all of us their tactic wasn’t to withhold or redirect Cooperative Program giving. Had they chosen that path during the 70’s and 80’s, who can doubt it would have led to a splintering or fracturing of the SBC rather than the unprecedented resurgence God allowed us to see?
The reason Jack Graham’s tactics are destructive to the SBC is not because the budget will take a hit, as sorry as I am to see our missions work and seminaries have less resources to use. His tactics are destructive because as soon as this philosophy is adopted, as soon as Graham’s behavior is emulated, the entire endeavor of cooperative ministry collapses. Envision this: Faction is quickly pitted against faction in SBC life in ways far more dramatic than anything we’ve seen before. Each group states their demands and holds hostage their missions giving until those demands are met. Some factions give up and splinter off. The ones with the big money buy their influence and no one cares what the vast majority of SBC churches think—because their budget isn’t big enough for their threats to matter. This doesn’t even take into account how many churches and pastors check out of cooperative ministry because it’s become as politicized as secular politics.
If Jack Graham believes dramatic change is needed in SBC life (and I’ll disagree with him all day about that, but that’s another conversation), he should emulate those that have gone before us, continue to cooperate in good faith, and seek to influence by advocating, electing, and convincing rather than threatening to defund cooperative ministry. Pressler and Patterson chose the way of courage. It was costly and took time, but the fruit is evident now. What we’re seeing today is not courage. It’s destructive and should be widely condemned.
Withholding Funds to Seek Influence Should Be Rejected
Yesterday’s press release indicated Prestonwood was withholding funding because of their concerns and that it likely would be restored if those concerns were satisfied. This is seeking to influence through financial pressure and I see no way around that interpretation. It sounds from the press release that Graham and Prestonwood wouldn’t even dispute that’s the purpose, even if they don’t like the wording of my description.
Graham’s views on the direction of the SBC have been clear for anyone who cared to listen. They’ve been promoted by some of the more tabloid-style state Baptist papers. I’ve known for some time now that Graham isn’t happy with Russell Moore. The article indicates there are additional unnamed concerns.
Now, I’m actually a pretty big advocate of churches being able to give to cooperative missions as they feel led and not guilted into a certain percentage. So this would seem like an issue where I’d normally say, sure, Prestonwood, if that’s how you feel led to steward your money, then have at it. What makes me see this as more than just a local church stewardship issue?
Local church stewardship issues—when a church’s leadership feels stewardship demands missions dollars be redirected—can be handled wisely and quietly. I’ve handled some in the past. Never have I thought it would be productive to publicize reasons we decided to end support for a ministry. There’s a way to redirect missions giving as a church leader that doesn’t end up at a press conference or in a newspaper headline. This is not about an autonomous SBC church choosing to give (or not give) in a different pattern than they used to. This is about taking that decision and using it to pressure and cause people to take your threats and your position more seriously than your voice alone warrants.
Please don’t miss the fact that Prestonwood could have quietly (or, less desirably, vocally) withheld funding from just the ERLC, which receives a small percentage of total CP giving while continuing to fund IMB, NAMB, our SBC seminaries. Why withhold all CP money and why the press release? Those are only a few of the questions that make this situation so disturbing.
We don’t have a convention where big money buys a big voice. But that’s exactly how we’re being treated right now. Those who have a lot of money are in the newspaper reminding us—in dollar figure form no less—that their voice needs to be heeded, or else…
A Few More Questions
Is this the way we want the SBC to operate in the future—Churches threatening to withhold money until their demands are met? Churches with big budgets calling the shots while thousands of average-sized churches watch and hope our vision for the convention aligns with the self-appointed convention benefactors? Do we really want IMB personnel on the field waiting to hear if churches are withholding funds because we can’t get along about secular politics?
I reject this future for the SBC, and because I do, I can’t be silent now. This path is destructive to our cooperative work and I pray we don’t choose it. Jack Graham and Prestonwood, leadership here looks like reversing this decision. Other SBC leaders, if they won’t, please call this for what it is.
Article in the news reported that FBC Orlando withheld almost $1 million 2-3 years ago and directed resources as they desired.
My two year old wasn’t the first kid to throw tantrums. That fact didn’t stop me from correcting the problem.
I am a 70 yr old southern Baptist pastor from texas……so I am well aware of the arguing and bickering among southern Baptist…the ejecting of professors and missionaries and the fighting over funds. Somewhere some how out convention continues to be more of a disgrace to the glory of God over out public bickering and refusal to co operate. If our people would get back in the word and stay on their knees before God humbling themselves the kingdom work would be far more affective in the usa. Study Galatians again.
Alas I found something about the FBC Orlando situation. Since it was brought up 9 minutes after this went live, and then twice again early in the comment stream, I thought it worth sharing. “First Orlando pastor explains decision to reduce CP giving” at the Florida Baptist Witness http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/display_article.php?id=1665909&view=202206 The implication has been in each case has been that Prestonwood’s decision can’t be that big of a deal because others have done similar things in the past. Read the article for the context of FBC Orlando’s decision—not to withhold cooperative missions funding, but to redirect it so that more went… Read more »
Same thing. Directed giving.
Directed giving is the same thing as not giving anything? Are we from the same planet?
I can only speak for me. I am an earthling. Here is a tweet from Jack Graham yesterday at 6:39 AM—”Prestonwood will increasingly support S Baptist missionaries through the International Mission Board.” Apparently, Prestonwood will be giving to missions in a more directed manner than in the past. “Not giving anything” is inaccurate. Furthermore, the ESCROWING of CP funds is not at all the same as the REMOVAL of CP funds. Once the SBC addresses the concerns of Prestonwood (and other SBC churches), all escrowed funds may certainly, at that time, be donated in total. If when a GCR church… Read more »
Here is a tweet from Jack Graham yesterday at 6:39 AM—”Prestonwood will increasingly support S Baptist missionaries through the International Mission Board.” I’ll give credit where credit is due. With the initial announcement through the Message, they said they’d escrow about $1,000,000. From past giving, that’s divided about 50/50 CP/LMCO. THAT made it sound like they were going to at least temporarily pull direct to missionary funding b/c they didn’t like actions by the ERLC/Moore. I still stand by my post on the overall tenor/reasoning behind what they’re doing, BUT: I’m glad to see they’re committed to the international missions… Read more »
This mirrors tactics taken by the left in response to the Trump election. I am terrified that civil discourse has become a thing of the past and we not boycott, picket, riot, pull funds or simply abandon the cause. Lord help us.
Excellent article, Brent! Great questions too!
It saddens me to see this strategy.
I have a question too ….will this not limit or eliminate their ability to send messengers to conventions or will the Exec Board count “escrow” money toward that? (goodness I hope not)
Seems to me this might be cutting nose off despite thier face as now they have NO “voting” influence to effect change….or did they give just enough to get messengers? If so, that would be even more dastardly and cowardly, IMO.
As they’ve given during part of this year, it probably won’t affect the 2017 Annual Meeting, but if they do continue and indeed stop all CP giving, then they would not be allowed any messengers at the 2018 convention. More timely might be the question of whether church members who are trustees of SBC entities should resign. If I’m not mistaken I remember Prestonwood showing up in several places in nominating committee reports.
Also, I am sure Prestonwood has numerous members on various trustee boards and such….if they are no longer cooperating by withholding CP funds – do these trustees/committee people need to resign?
Not impugning or saying they should – I am really not sure.
I was going to ask about the same question in that would they still be considered Southern Baptist? I hope this tactic is not given in to. It’s tantamount to the Martin Luther era selling of indulgences or blackmail. It’s just not something that should be paid attention to in the face of right or wrong.
Apparently this 7 month old article is already out of date. I guess Prestonwood and Jack Graham “lost the vision”
https://conventionalfutures.com/2016/06/03/vision-funds-mission-the-great-commission-and-the-cooperative-program/
Wow. “I believe that with all my heart. It’s why I continue to participate in the Southern Baptist Convention. Do we have our issues? Sure. (Come to the summer business meeting and you’ll see some of them!) But what brings us together and keeps us united is much stronger than what could ever divide us: our passion to see the gospel go to the ends of the earth. This has been our rallying cry from the beginning, and if we are to have a future as a convention, we must continue to rally around the task Jesus left us. Everything… Read more »
yep. if control can be gained through money, then its not by definition, “cooperative.” It is Oligarchical? is that the right word?
This whole discussion saddens me apparently politics, differances, and control with the SBC is more important than the souls of the lost. Broken over this!
This is not an isolated situation. I know of a large church in Georgia that did this a few years ago, and for the same reason. Another large church in South Carolina reduced their giving from 8% to 3% recently as a form of protest. Prestonwood is certainly not the first, nor will they be the last to use their dollars as a way of expressing their priorities and their desired vision for the future of the SBC. I love Prestonwood. I was saved and baptized there back in 1982. I realize some may view this as something of a… Read more »
CORRECTION
I wrote: “Presumably, they could give that amount to Guidestone’s Mission Dignity Fund or to Southwestern’s new Preaching School or directly to some other entity.” Upon review, while the donations CAN be made directly to an entity, they CANNOT be DESIGNATED to any specific fund.
“at some point, you feel like the organization is not even really yours any more, but is going off in directions of which you do not approve, and there’s simply nothing you can do about it, because no one is listening.”
this is how small churches without money feel all the time….but they trust the process that is agreed upon by all, the democratic process, a.k.a. cooperative.
So turn your scrutiny to the leadership and say, “Why will you only pay attention when your funding is threatened? Why won’t you listen to godly small church members and pastors who disagree with you? Why won’t you break the cycle of appointing trustee boards to all of the agencies that are only there to rubber stamp the central planners’ agenda?” The pastors who are withholding funds are doing so because the leadership to whom they are addressing their protest have built a culture in the convention in which this is the only effective means, then they turn and call… Read more »
John S, that’s nonsense. Change is affected through the trustees, who are appointed by the committee on nominations, who are appointed by the committee on committees, who are appointed by the SBC President. The process is open and available to anyone who cares to get involved. The fact is (as demonstrated at last year’s convention during the resolution against the CF and the ERLC Q&A time, for example) that Moore and SBC leadership actually are in sync with the majority of SBC messengers. Yes, there are godly small church pastors and members who disagree with some decisions of SBC leadership,… Read more »
And…this right here is what is going to put us on the road to a split. Maybe it’s necessary. The loose bonds of cooperation for the sake of gospel mission for which the convention was created have mutated into a bloated central hierarchy and bureaucracy that does more to promote the kind of politics you are decrying than it does to support mission anyway.
And to be honest, you come across like you’re just building your own profile and vying for your place in the empire. And if the side of power and establishment prevails, you’ll probably get it eventually. Someone will notice your loyalty. Then you can have a real bully pulpit of your very own.
John S. do you actually go to the Convention or know how the process works? Your remarks make broad assumptions that are groundless. Brent is absolutely right that Moore is in step with the overwhelming majority opinion of the Convention. As for your ad hominem against Brent, you are again completely off the mark.
Todd – yes I understand the process. And, no ad hominem, just an observation.
Forgot to add– “overwhelming majority of opinions” of the members versus the messengers at a given annual meeting are totally different things. Convention locations GREATLY affect attendance, among other things. But if this heats up there is a good chance it will pick up in order to demonstrate that the “majority opinion” is actually not with Moore.
Rick said, “I realize some may view this as something of a “nuclear” option, but frankly, when the concerns of our churches are ignored by leaders who simply say, “Show unity, be sweet, there are no problems here, don’t make trouble, just keep sending us your money and we’ll take care of the rest,” at some point, you feel like the organization is not even really yours any more, but is going off in directions of which you do not approve, and there’s simply nothing you can do about it, because no one is listening. Sometimes, money is the only… Read more »
Thank you, Brent. That’s just what this reeks of and it is so very disheartening. That some resort to shortcuts and ad hominems. It’s arrogance, that dreadful heart condition that plagues every one of us. After failing to gain traction with argument and dialogue, they double down and resort to powerplays rather than consider the possibility that they are wrong. If “influential” members of their congregations used these tactics they would never justify such means.
“Brent: Yes, it is viewed as a nuclear option—precisely because money was never intended as an influence mechanism. There are ways and channels to get the organization to change direction. They involve a lot of people agreeing with you and making your issue a priority—and that over a period of years. Some have a hard time getting a large group of people either agreeing or caring enough about their particular concerns to make changes through the nominations and trustee system. If someone chooses to work around the system through the shortcut of funding threats, they shouldn’t be surprised when people… Read more »
A point of clarification: the church Bro Patrick references as where David Uth is pastor is FBC, Orlando, FL, not FBC, Jacksonville, FL.
So sorry, Dr. Vines. I have been too quick on the keyboard today. Thank you for that needed and helpful correction.
I dont see this as a threat to thee CP. Pre-CR, CR, post-CR churches have done this. Let’s see what happens.
Too many heads exploding too soon here.
So because they disagree with a legal brief supporting religious liberty and some comments by Dr. Moore about the wisdom of supporting Donald Trump; Prestonwood (and others) are going to withhold hundreds of thousands of dollars that go to support missions, seminaries, and a host of dedicated employees at SBC entities? What a sad, shameful, and hurtful thing to do. My respect for Dr. Graham and his church (and those like them) is shattered. I expected better of them.
Should be David Uth. Auto spell, I guess. Excuse.
Thanks for your comment, Dr. Vines. I updated the original comment with the correction.
I’ve seen the “others have done it too” defense several times now. It’s beginning to seem like this is a coordinated response. And the fact that no one has posted any details or links to the FBC Orlando situation (a quick internet search yielded no results) leads me to the initial inference that the situation is not comparable. EVEN IF IT IS, just because someone else made a bad decision in the past doesn’t mitigate the damage this one does.
Back in the day, Paul Pressler wrote a book entitled A Hill on Which to Die, which made a point that convinced many back then, and that continues to convince many of us today, that there are certain issues—such as biblical inerrancy—which, in spite of the risk and potential hurt involved, are truly hills on which to die when it comes to continued denominational cooperation vs. division/non-support. For many of us, the BF&M marks the parameters for Southern Baptist hills on which to die (though on the specific issue of closed communion as enunciated in the BF&M, it is doubtful… Read more »
David, excellent comment. Thank you. Again, I agree. It appears that the hill on which to die for some is politics and whether or not one affirms your support of Trump for president. That is a very sad situation, if so.
David – I am going to go off subject for a moment and I hope what I share isn’t offensive. Though no names are mentioned in what I posted on my FB page a few days ago, it deals with your father. What do you get when??? You take a deceased Tennessee Preacher‘s sermon illustration… Shared by a Liberty University Instructional Mentor / Professor living in Wyoming… Posted to his team of adjunct Instructors, through Virginia to around the globe… Where one of the team who Pastors in Dubai shares that deceased Pastor’s illustration on his FB page… Where a… Read more »
Thanks, Jon. I never ceased to be blessed hearing accounts of how God used my dad and his ministry in the lives of others.
David, perhaps you know the answer to this and I would really be interested in knowing. I don’t remember, although it certainly could have happened, that Land actually castigated Southern Baptists for a particular viewpoint with the same vitriol that Moore has on those who supported Trump. Perhaps, Land wasn’t as connected to social media as Moore is, but the reality is, at least in my opinion, that this is the big difference between Land and Moore.
I have never seen Russell Moore castigate anyone with vitriol.
Well, that’s probably why you and others can’t understand why this is still coming up. While I disagree with Graham on the stance he’s taking, until people realize Moore initiated much of this it probably won’t go away.
One man’s castigating with vitriol is another man’s speaking the truth in love. I guess it all depends on whose toes are getting stepped on.
David,
I agree.
But I do think all sides in this one can get along if the heat were turned down just a bit.
Well, this fire storm will be a blessing to my weekend and certainly no distraction whatsoever.
Brent, thanks for this needed response to the news reported from Louisiana out of Texas. (Couldn’t anyone from Texas reported this?).
The bottom line here…& in many other discussions here and on Facebook regarding this issue seems to be the valuation of political access versus prophetic influence.
I’ll choose the latter every day and twice on Sunday.
Okay, I’m going out with my wife in a bit. Ya’ll play nice. Someone make sure Tarheel behaves.
“We don’t have a convention where big money buys a big voice. But that’s exactly how we’re being treated right now.” Actually, we do. And that’s part of the problem. The trustee strategy that took the convention away from moderates has been used to build a bureaucracy of yes-men and insulate the central planners. It was only a matter of time before churches who have been increasingly disenfranchised pushed back. Money talks. Perhaps this is not the ideal way to make your point, but I don’t blame them for doing it, because I think it is a bigger issue is… Read more »
John S,
What are small church pastors so upset about? I pastored a medium sized church in the South. In Alabama. Most people and pastors I know are not upset with Dr. Moore or the ERLC.
Maybe the pastors you know aren’t upset, but many pastors I know are, and the number is growing.
John S, Again your comment shows an ignorance of the trustee system or the history of how trustees have operated. Your comments are unfounded.
John, serving as a trustee in the past at NOBTS and NAMB, I understand how the trustee system works and the history of the trustee system. Prior to the Conservative Resurgence, the trustees were “fans” and “rubber stamps” for the leadership of the entities. From what I have read and heard, it appears that’s what the trustees are at the ERLC.
Jesse – Of course they are.
Tons John S. I hardly call SBCToday tons of voices. And blackmail is not the way to get your voice heard in a good way.
I should use the word extortion instead of blackmail. Both are unsavory ways to get your “voice heard.”
Debbie I don’t even read SBC Today so yeah….
Moor responds to his critics by pointing them to the scriptural principles he bases his decision making on. His critics are frustrated because they have no Biblical ground to stand on so they have to turn to criticizing “how” he says things rather than what he says. Basically attempting to marginalize the message by attacking the man. The problem of course is that the critics of Russell Moore have been just as, or more, vicious in their critiques. Not to mention more naked in their ambitions. Robert Jeffress calls those who would not vote for the President on moral grounds… Read more »
“Who exactly is influencing whom?
“Do not be misled, Bad company corrupts good character…” 1 Corinthians 15:33”
Great, great question and scripture reference!
I think the answer is obvious…..see Randall’s comment above.
Randall’s comment is Below actually… lol
absonjourney, could you please supply the Scriptural justification? I have been asking for one and sadly must have missed it. I would greatly appreciate a Scriptural justification for the brief, the election statement, ignoring Eric Walsh and the Johnson Amendment for starters.
Thank you very much.
*vigorous applause* for absonjourney.
The problem with Moore’s comments about Trump is they were right, and sadly, so were his comments about Trump’s most vigorous supporters. Unfortunately too many people who held their nose and voted for Trump took Moore’s comments personally when they never should have.
Now I have my own problem with people who held their nose and voted for Trump. Those same people could have elected a reasonable candidate if they hadn’t played politics for power. I think those people deserve a measure of shame, but that’s just me. It doesn’t make them bad people.
Thoughtful article. I think Prestwood has proven the point that, for some, Trump trumps mission and gospel cooperation. I would have some understanding if we were talking about a doctrinal issue or a question of mission priority. No, we are talking about politics. We are talking about being offended by Russ Moore. I’ve been offended by fundamentalists but I’m still leading our church to give. I’ve been offended by Calvinists and non- Calvinists, but we are still giving. I’ve been suspect of this or that but I’ve not come to the issue that would stop me from supporting cooperative missions.… Read more »
Like.
Double like!
Triple like
And more “Like”
Sorry, anything beyond ‘triple’ just seems silly.
“Donald Trump is a sad hill to die on. He is an even sadder reason to suspend cooperative giving”
– Beautiful comment.
“Donald Trump is a sad hill to die on. He is an even sadder reason to suspend cooperative giving.”
I heartily agree with this statement, though Moore should also bear a responsibility as an Entity Head to not incite with rhetoric many find offensive on an issue that should be a hill NOT to die on.
I realize this is the rub that we disagree on. I would say that Graham is just as wrong as I believe Moore to have been wrong on his vitriolic tweets and op eds.
I disagree.
It could reasonably be argued that Moore was trying to combat the effort of some to “unequally yoke” Southern Baptists and more broadly evangelicals to Donald Trump….it is clear that great number of big names (including Graham, BTW) were publicly trying to do just that.
I guess that whole unequally yoked thing can be applied lots of ways – eh??
Tarheel, if you read my comment I said this is the rub we disagree on. I hear your argument, I’m not sure you hear mine. Both Graham and Moore have been too vitriolic in their statements. Again, this is my opinion, but to let Moore completely off the hook and only act as if Graham is doing something “wrong” is why we are even discussing this to begin with.
Question: Do you think Moore bears any responsibility for implying that SBC’ers were “out of their minds” for backing Trump.
Nate, I will answer that question. I think Moore does bear the responsibility of his words saying SBCers were “out of their minds” for supporting Trump. And if he knew what the results would be, he would do it again. That’s what you have to do when you are a man who cares about the Gospel and you see the people who you love, who God has called you to help lead, chasing after an idol. The idol is political power. Trump promised its return after some felt it was lost under President Obama. Those who felt that way were… Read more »
The president and his surrogates demonstrate, day after day, that Moore’s fears and warnings were not unfounded.
This is exactly why this will continue, because you, Bill and others think Hillary would have been better. Of course, you’ll never admit that but she was the only other person who would have been elected. No 3rd party was going to win; you know this but contend otherwise. So we don’t know where this administration will take us, but everyone knew where Hillary would take us.
Moore does own his words, as does Graham. Neither is being helpful to uniting the SBC
Nate: Everyone seems to own his own words except the President. He lies to our faces practically every he speaks. But his supporters never bat an eye. It’s all “blame the media”. Well, the media did not make him lie about his electoral college margin just a couple days ago. The media does not make him repeatedly lie about voter fraud. Even people at Fox News are shaking their heads. I was and am an unashamed never Trumper, but I honestly see more promise in him than I did before the election. But he is his own worst enemy. He… Read more »
On the contrary, I would contend that many pro-Trumpers have failed to truly comprehend the thinking of many never-Trump, never-Hillary, folks all along. You don’t understand how a failure to support Trump does not constitute for us a de facto support of Hillary. The bottom line, as I see it, is the degree of hope one places in the electoral system and government to bring about what is right and true in the world. I do not have a high degree of hope in politics or any politician to accomplish anything of lasting worth in the world. It is much… Read more »
He’s holding a campaign rally in Florida for crying out loud and he’s already won the election! He is addicted to adulation. At a campaign rally, no one is there to disagree with him, or oppose him, or fact check him. How long before we hear about the awesome crowd he drew? He’s finding being president is a lot less fun than running for president.
My hope is not in a reinvigorated America. However, I do care about the country I live in. The absurd notion that anyone other than Trump or Clinton was going to win is well… I have no problem with those supporting Moore to the extent they don’t act as if nobody can speak against him. If you feel as if this doesn’t apply to you, great. David, I legitimately asked you to give me your thoughts as to why Moore is taking more heat than Land did with SBC’ers. Now, it appears pretty clear. Everybody thinks he is incapable of… Read more »
No, Nate.
His motives were pure. He made some mistakes in presentation, he has acknowledged it….he’s apologized for his rhetoric in as much as it was hurtful.
No one is saying he’s infallible – we are just saying it’s Time to move on.
For those of you who incorrectly perceive that the only concerns people have with Russell Moore have to do with Donald Trump, let me invite you to read either the essays, or at least the abstracts, from the THIRTY editorials that have been written in opposition to Moore’s leadership over the past four years.
I believe they will provide you with a broader understanding of the principled opposition to his ministry philosophy and leadership style.
[link removed by editor]
But, all those come “editorials” from the same corners of thought (mostly “trad” 316gang types, and a few really really strange bedfellows) that have disliked him and set themselves against him from day one…actually before day one.
It’s been a snowball that you hope will gain traction….
also, not coincidentally in my view the vast majority of those were written recently like within the last year and half…now what does that coincide with? Hmmm….let me think? The movement that starts with a T…and is often used in conjunction with a train…. Like I have sald before – this is a 4-legged chair creating a “perfect storm” for RIck 316Gang “war” ….. Anti-Calvinism Meets Muslim fear-mongering Meets Republican politics at all costs Meets Pro Trump I still am waiting on an answer to the question that has been asked concerning whether or not there was any coordination between… Read more »
Yes Rick we know, no little needle has gone unturned by you and the SBCToday group.
BWAHAHAHA
Rick come on brother. A good third of those are from P&P. You consider them a credible source after all they did to your buddy Ergun?
Well, at least they were right about Ergun…lol
Tarheel, I am more than happy to put you out of your suspense. I started to do so earlier by simply responding, “Who’s the conspiracy theorist now?” 1. DEAN HAUN RESIGNATION I did not speak to Dean Haun, at all, prior to his IMB resignation. (I did reach out to him afterward, knowing that he made a difficult personal decision as a matter of conscience, and that he would be feeling some heat for it. I thanked him for his courage and for standing by his principles. I sincerely respect people who are willing to do so, even when they… Read more »
Unfortunately, I must now say a word about the SBC Today post “Russell Moore’s ERLC—A Compendium of Concern.” As several of you have pointed out, the inclusion of SIX articles by Pulpit and Pen has been somewhat controversial now, on three different levels. Although one brother estimated that 33% of the articles were by P&P, the truth of the matter is that only 20% (six out of thirty) are theirs. 1. UPSETTING TRADITIONALISTS I heard from one or two Traditionalists who, like yours truly, remain profoundly grieved whenever we think of the memory of Braxton Caner, which we do often,… Read more »
Rick, Ok. So 20% are P&P and the other 80% are from your little bandwagon – it’s hardly evidence of being as exhaustive as you claim. The P&P in your words “criticizes absolutely everyone” and SBCToday and CONNECT316 criticize absolutely everyone in anyway connected with Calvinist thought. I’m glad to hear from you that Rev. Haun Nor Dr. Graham nor any of their staff have been in any way consulting or communicating with you/Connect316 regarding these issues. Other than your self professed complimentary comments after the fact. (I don’t want to overstate what you’ve said – is that what you’re… Read more »
Hey, classic linkbait. Hide a url under a bit.ly so no one can see what site they are going to visit, and it’s not even Twitter. Just over here shaking my head.
My like trumps other likes #swidt
I believe that Jack Graham and Prestonwood Baptist Church have taken the wrong path in this matter. A better way would be to meet with the Texas trustee on the board of the ELRC and express displeasure. Beyond that, a pastor of Dr. Graham’s standing could surely secure an appointment with the chairman of the ELRC board of trustees. If that tactic fails, then Dr. Graham could introduce a motion at the annual meeting of his state convention. A motion or resolution from a big convention like Texas would carry a lot of weight with the trustees of the ERLC… Read more »
Mark, I would be glad to see steps like you’ve mentioned rather than what we’re seeing in this instance. Thanks for pointing out there are many other options than pulling funding.
Let’s see here. A morally bankrupt president with a long history of using his checkbook to get his way…defended by a SB church using their checkbook to get their way…because said SB church is upset with a SB employee who pointed out the moral bankruptcy of said president.
And all of this applauded by the Executive Director of Connect 3:16.
The irony is palpable.
I keep telling Dave we need to get a way to like or upvote comments around here. Cause this ^^^ is another great one!
Five-star comment.
Two thumbs up.
= no more mics to drop.
Beautiful.
Randall,
Truth = mic drop!
Hopefully, I am wrong, but I see others doing the same.
Truly sad
And those who are not Christ Followers will continue to ask why they would want to when we act no different.
I guess following Jesus and all He commands (Matthew 28) is only followed when convenient.
Come on my SBC brothers let’s die to ourselves and reach our neighbors and the nation’s with the Gospel.
Let’s not forget we are not called to act like Democrats and Republicans we are called to act like Jesus Christ!
Dallas 2018
What has a lot of small church people upset is the lack of respect given them by the convention… when Ed Stetzer and some of his SBC friends tell us we need to reach across the aisle and make Hillary Clinton supporters “feel” welcome and help them in their understanding of defeat in the Presidential election almost to the point of apologizing for Trump winning irritated several SBC members. When challenged on his website about this statement you get a response of I’m too holy to discuss your oponion… when in fact nothing was said about reaching out to those… Read more »
Like
I can assure you what Russell Moore says doesn’t reflect the values and beliefs of the majority of churches in the SBC, which is made up of small churches. I believe Dr. Steve Gaines will be elected for a 2nd term in Phoenix, and a new president will be elected in 2018.
“I can assure you what Russell Moore says doesn’t reflect the values and beliefs of the majority of churches in the SBC…”
Yet on the two issues raised by the Prestonwood article Russell Moore reflected *precisely* the values and beliefs of the SBC as expressed in resolutions passed by overwhelming majorities of Convention messengers.
The churches are not necessarily disagreeing with the resolutions. It’s the application where churches disagree. Most can unite on the principles passed, not not how the leadership is fleshing it out in their application. That doesn’t give a green light to Moore. At my church, a number of members disagree and are afraid to speak out because our Pastor has been very vocal and is very connected in the SBC and the local seminary. That doesn’t translate into support or agreement.
Tiffany Long: How do they or you think it is applied wrong. The resolution is pretty clear in its intent.
It is a resolution on the moral integrity of public officials. That would include the office of President. There can be no misapplication.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/773/resolution-on-moral-character-of-public-officials
Which is comprised of both small and large churches.
If one will look back over the last several years to blogs and Southern Baptist Press stories for example, people and this included ministers were complaining that there weren’t enough sermons being preached on sin. That the church was being womanized and not manly. We read this a lot. Now Russell Moore comes along and despite opposition preaches against sin and moral failings. Not just once but through out Trump’s life and career(remember he is also a businessman who went for the throat and it didn’t matter if the throat belonged to a rich or poor person. See why he… Read more »
Careful, Mr. Cofield. Exposing hyperbolic intellectual dishonesty is liable to attract criticism.
As OS Hawkins said, Dr. Graham’s decision to escrow funds to CP has nothing to do with Trump. Let it go. My question is, what Pastor on here would not face the same recourse from his members if: 1.) You told the older members of your church that they needed to step down from their positions of serving and witnessing for Christ due to “budget reasons.” They could still attend church, but they needed to let someone else use their gifts in that position you have faithfully been committed to for 20, 30, even 40 years- and are still seeing… Read more »
1.) You told the older members of your church that they needed to step down from their positions of serving and witnessing for Christ due to “budget reasons.” They could still attend church, but they needed to let someone else use their gifts in that position you have faithfully been committed to for 20, 30, even 40 years- and are still seeing the fruit of that ministry? ______ If the budget reasons are real and profound and the leadership had been in discussions and are in agreement that such a coursecorrection had to happen to sustain long term (and even… Read more »
If it had nothing to do with Trump, why is no one offended by what Dr. Moore said about Hillary Clinton or her supporters? Lots of Democrats still in the SBC who saw her as a better alternative.
First, I am not just speaking about Dr. Graham and Preston. I am speaking in broader terms. Secondly, while what Dr. Moore says may accurately repepresent the majority of those who attended the convention, I assure you what Dr. Moore says doesn’t accurately reflect the values and beliefs of the majority of Southern Baptists.
I keep hear from the same few people that “Dr. Moore says doesn’t accurately reflect the values and beliefs of the majority of Southern Baptists.” Still trying to find evidence for that claim. In fact, there are few Southern Baptists I know that would disagree with Moore.
Well (1) we can only go by those who actually show up to the Convention and vote and (2) there is no indication that the messengers that do attend are not an accurate representative sample of the Convention as a whole. The fact that many ministers you know share your opinion is not evidence that the majority of the Convention sides with you. The only way we have of measuring the intent and values of the Convention is the votes of its messengers, and Moore has consistently reflected those values.
Todd,
Yes, that’s exactly my point.
And cries about underrepresented “small” churches sound just like those people who complain about church decisions but don’t go to the business meetings. I do feel that the SBC should consider smaller cities that aren’t tourist traps like NOLA or Orlando. I’m sure that would keep hotel costs reasonable. You have to actually GO to the meetings, though, if you want your precious voice heard.
Tarheel,
Thank you for the civil response 😉
I believe we can entertain your view on the missionary action. And I am certain it was painful. Especially for those called off the field…
I believe we can agree to disagree on how Moore handled the situation at covention.
However, the situation with amicus brief needs our attention. I don’t believe I assumed anything. I outlined how it would be perceived in the local church. As to the information or any accusation, the words of Dean Haun speak for themselves.
http://baptistandreflector.org/tennessee-pastor-resigns-as-imb-trustee/
Thank you for the ecchange.
But, you have only heard Haun’s story and therefore have assumed its complete and correct. I am not assuming what Haun has said is not true – and certainly not impugning him in any way. I am just saying that 1)we have only heard one side of that “story” 2) There since there is little to no profit at this point of full “trustee board statements”, President’s statements (beyond what Dr. Platt has already said), etc creating a I he said, he said…we are unlikely to hear from the other side. So only having the benefit of one side of… Read more »
I find it funny that the ones saying the trustee system is not a rubber stamp forget not too many months ago that Dr. Platt was forced to come forward with evidence that the IMB had blown through millions of dollars…all these funds were approved by the trustees (no accountability to the SBC, which is another topic entirely) that was news to the SBC. What would happen if pastors tried that in our churches? If you really think that the Trustee board of most (if not all) SBC entities don’t simply rubber stamp the agenda put in front of them,… Read more »
The issue isn’t about Trump. Some may be pushing the issue in that direction, but that is not the core issue.
God is judging us. He is giving us the leaders we have always wanted. That is just my take on the issue.
I don’t agree with the strategy of Prestonwood. Jack Graham is a Man of God, a fine Pastor with a tender heart. I disagree with him here greatly on tactics. I do not agree with Russell Moore. I could care less about his Calvinism or non-Calvinism. I care more that he speaks for Southern Baptists. His stewardship of the ERLC has not in my opinion “been his best work.” While some see him as prophetic, I see him as an elitist and an arrogant speaker who often doubles down when confronted, often blaming others for not “understanding him”, or failing… Read more »
ERLC: I propose a test. Let’s use the scientific method. I recommend that someone move at the convention in Phoenix that we disband the ERLC effective the end of the 2018 fiscal year with the proviso that we vote can re-instate it at the 2020 convention. My guess is that 99% of us won’t miss it. PRESTONWOOD: As to Dr. Graham at Prestonwood: I don’t have any comment except he should explore every other channel before using the nuclear option. Why withhold funds to the CP if the ERLC and/or the guy who is running that agency is the target?… Read more »
This has been mentioned but it bears asking again.
If a wealthy church member decided to withhold his tithes and offerings because he wasn’t happy with the pastor or some other leadership decision, in order to force his will upon the congregation, would any of you here have words of encouragement or admiration for this man?
That happened where I was Bill. Though the protest then was a silent one while the conspirators worked behind the scenes rather than an open transparent rebellion. I have already stated that I disagree with the method. I do like the fact that it is open rather than a secret. This will end primarily in two ways more than likely: Moore will go or many others will. That is the reality. That is where we are.
Rob
Todd, It is not only pastor friends I know who are dissatisfied with Dr. Moore’s leadership at the ERLC, but it is also SBC church members. Right now in my current church I am fighting off a push to escrow our CP gifts from a group of members who know what is going on in the SBC. I am encouraging them to give the established SBC process time to see what happens at the ERLC. As I speak with other pastors they are sharing with me the same reports. As more grassroots church members learn about the current leadership and… Read more »
I wonder though if these members you speak of being bothered with “what’s going on” the SBC/ERLC are primarily so because people
Of “prestige” and platforms are telling them they ought to be….and the drama surrounding Trump.
I.e. Huckabee, Graham, falwell, Jeffress along certain websites and divisive groups – SBCToday, Connect316, etc…
Are you suggesting that the hoi polloi have to get their marching orders to make waves based not upon their own convictions but whatever the people of “prestige” tell them to do?
Who tells you to believe and do what you do eh?
Rob
No sir.
So it has nothing to do with Trump?
Objection. Asked and answered.
Rob
Everyone is ignoring the elphant in the room and that is that David Platt, the President of the IMB, had his church, The Church at Brook Hills, withhold funds to the Alabama Baptist Convention because he didn’t want any of the church’s funds going to support Samford University – the issue being members of Samford’s Religion Department. Also, if you look at the website for The Church at Brook Hills, you will see that they support a number of missionaries who are not IMB. It’s a little hard to tell small SBC churches to give more to Lottie Moon when… Read more »
” The bottom line is that Dr. Russell Moore should have thought about the consequences of his acitons every time he decided to opine in the Washington Post.” I disagree. I absolutely believe Russell Moore knew full well the “consequences” of pushing back on the the status quo/tradition and looking at things through a biblical perspective. And that’s part of the reason I am thankful for him. Russell Moore seems to be the type of man that serves God before wanting a seat at the table despite the “consequences.” I actively pray for more men like him. I hope, by… Read more »
The prophets did not apologize for being “misunderstood”.
Rob
“so Moore didn’t have the influence he thought he would.” I think it’d be more accurate to say: “so his touting of biblical principle and historical Baptist positions relating to immoral politicians didn’t have the influence he thought it would” (I say that not rehash that issue – but to point out that I believe that RM did WHAT he did because he thought it to be right and wanted to speak rightly to other evangelicals who he saw being pulled astray from what we have long said we believe regarding these issues (at least when it relates to democrats).)… Read more »
It seems you guys are bent on making the issue about President Trump. Help yourselves if that is your pleasure. The issue is about Moore. It appears perhaps you are Moore loyalists. And that is your privilege. At least you should show some respect and a certain amount of humility and civility to other brothers and sisters in Christ who do not agree with certain stances Dr. Moore has been taking, which clearly do not reflect the values and beliefs of the vast majority of Southern Baptists over 40 years of age.
Jesse–your authoritative statements are just too general. I’m 65 and believe Russell Moore to be just what we need at ERLC.
Jesse, “It seems you guys are bent on making the issue about President Trump. ” Unmmmmm……. Graham said it *IS* about that – plain and simple. “In a text to Baptist Press, Message Editor Will Hall noted he had queried Prestonwood about its giving to SBC causes after pastor Jack Graham was interviewed in December by The Wall Street Journal. Graham told The Journal the church was “considering making major changes in our support of the Southern Baptist Convention.” At issue, Graham said in the interview, was alleged “disrespectfulness” by ERLC President Russell Moore toward evangelical supporters of Donald Trump… Read more »
That isn’t the only issue. Dr. Graham also talked about the growing disconnect between entity heads and the SBC churches.
He said it was the issue.
The growing disconnect? Bawahaha. You mean as opposed to when HE was a leader in the boys club?
It’s not any worse now than it was then it’s just that he doesn’t like not being in the club like he used to be… There are others who feel that way too.
You, as a trump supporter – should understand this…. it’s kind of like the old establishment Resisting the establishment of a new establishment they can’t seem to control. 😉
Sometimes the language of the SBC’s bylaws and constitution are difficult to interpret, but it seems to me that a church which withdraws its contributions in order to force a personnel issue around the established trustee system and process would easily be defined as “not being in friendly cooperation” with the convention. Any of its members on committees and boards should be immediately suspended, and none of its messengers should be seated.
As I said, you guys are in the Moore fan club, and that is your privilege. There may be some 65 year olds who are members of the club with you. That, too, is their privilege. However, I doubt the majority of that age demographic within the SBC would be members of the club. I respect your right to be a Moore fan.
Don’t worry – we “respect your right” to be fanboys of the members of the old boys club….. so we will dismiss your comments out of hand too.
Boy, this is helpful. :-/
Personally Jesse it wouldn’t matter to me if you respected it or not.
And if there were others(and I have no doubt there is considering evangelicals put Trump in office) it just shows how bad the churches are right now. Majority does not mean anything. Christ or the disciples or any main character in the Bible were usually in the minority. I’m OK with that and high numbers is not what helps me decide my stands.
Just once I’d like to see one of the prominent Christian Trump supporters hold the president accountable for what he says. It is galling to hear the president decrying “fake news” in the media while he and his mouthpieces are the biggest sources of fake news in the country right now. “biggest electoral victory since Reagan”, “won the popular vote”, “3-5 MILLION illegal votes, all cast for Clinton”, “highest crime rate in 47 years”, “terror activity in Sweden on Friday”, “Bowling green massacre”. When the media, biased as they may be, is portrayed as the “enemy of the people”, and… Read more »
You know this kind of diatribe proves a point. From a discussion of Jack Graham and The actions of his church into a launching of a lament of the current President. Good. Glad we got that out of the way. Glad we know what all this wailing and knashing of teeth is really all about. For the record I also abhor lies from politicians. I find your rancor a bit of selective outrage. Somehow I must of missed all those consternations about how you could keep your doctor and your plan, as well as that spontaneous demonstration in front of… Read more »
I didn’t need to speak out on the lies of Clinton and Obama because they were rehashed ad nauseum from the same Christian folks who are now silent on Trump’s.
No, I don’t think Trump is a worthy hill to die on, but some evidently think so.
That is nonsense and you know it. Those lies I mentioned either affected people’s lives or covered up the fact that people’s lives ended due to incompetence. Somehow they deserve no mention by you because others that now say nothing did all the talking then? God have mercy Bill do you hear yourself? You chide and condemn others on their inconsistency but you are just as inconsistent as they are.
Rob
What I hear (or don’t hear) is Trump getting a pass on things that would send Christians into apoplexy if they were done and said by Democrats.
What I hear is that you get apoplexy whenever the name of Trump is mentioned, yet had nothing to say when other politicians (namely Democrat) did near or the same in the false witness category. You do here the same you accuse others of doing = just the other way around. Romans 2:1.
Rob
Rob: That’s fair. I certainly have made it clear that I don’t think Clinton had the moral fiber to be president, and that I would never support her as president, but I don’t think I’ve specifically mentioned Bengazi or the other specific things people have brought up. But this is my reason: She’s not in my political party, she’s not the darling of high profile evangelicals, and lastly, she’s not the president! I didn’t want Trump to be president, but now that he is, I want him to be a good president. I don’t want the person who represents my… Read more »
Well…I don’t see him representing my religion. As for those who deflect and blame I don’t need to watch a news conference = all I need to do is open up and read a Baptist blog :-). Any President regardless of party is “our” President as a Citizen. We all hold whoever holds the office and their acolytes accountable and rightly so. When the President and the Secretary of State did those things you were silent then. It just seems to me your words now are ringing hollow holding the current occupant to account when you were unwilling to do… Read more »
Thanks
As a pastor, I appreciate and support Russell Moore and the ERLC. I can see how some people disagree with him, but the opposition seems like a severe overreaction to me. He is clear on prolife issues, has held firm on the biblical view of marriage, has called for the compassionate treatment of refugees and immigrants (while acknowledging the need for national security), and has stressed the importance of character and morality in our elected officials. Almost all of those opposed to him seem focused on his concerns about Donald Trump and his criticism of those who were enthusiastically supporting… Read more »