If I have learned anything during my time as a pastor in Louisiana it is confirmation that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely (originally from a letter by John Dalberg-Acton 1st Baron Acton to Mandell Creighton dated April 5, 1887). Please no jokes about the political irony of living here in the home state of Huey Long where “Every Man is a King.” For years I’ve wondered… what will it take for my fellow LA Pastors to see through the obfuscation, manipulation and bad stewardship which we allow to continue unchecked in Alexandria. I’m flummoxed as to what will it take to make significant changes in leadership in our state convention?
- If the outright rejection of engagement with even the possibility of a 50/50 CP split is not enough to convince you we have problems (the LBC keeps a higher percentage of CP money in the state than any other state convention in the south [I inadvertently left out “in the south” in my original post. My apology for the confusion] and we were told that such a split would only be considered if our Louisiana churches gave more to Alexandria);
- If the inordinate amount of money given to Louisiana College and the earlier SACS validated concern of undue influence is not enough to convince you we have problems (Louisiana College gets more money from the LBC than NAMB gets from the LBC and at the time of my research a few years back they received more than any other state convention connected college or university);
- If the lack of transparency in financial accountability from the Executive Committee is not enough to convince you we have problems (I’m not suggesting fiscal illegalities or mismanagement of that kind, but some pastor friends have regularly attempted to get information or reports regarding LBC expenses but to no avail);
- If the heavily anti-reformed (arguably fundamentalist) tilt of the Baptist Message and its apparent distrust for certain SBC entity heads is not enough to convince you we have problems (over the last few years not one published article regarding the entities have offered anything but negative critique regarding leadership at the IMB, NAMB and the ERLC as well as a possible SBC presidential candidate);
…then maybe this will be the issue that will finally convince you we have a problem.
For years there has been an unwritten practice that candidates for the Presidency of the SBC do not actively engage in campaigning. Certainly, we know that campaigning goes on between friends and acquaintances at the coffee house, in the seminary student center, during Sunday school classes and at association meetings, but the practice has generally been relegated to those private, person-to-person meetings and not been espoused by the candidates themselves. However, that is certainly not the case in Louisiana. Political expediency rules the day here in the Pelican state’s Baptist Convention. (In my opinion, this unwritten practice feigns humility and as far as I’m concerned I’d rather forego it and have a deliberate statement from the candidate’s mouth as to why I should vote for him and not for the other guy, but that’s just me.)
In a full plenary session of the Executive Committee of the LBC in 2016 Dr. David Hankins, during his Executive Director’s Report, presented a statement (with the caveat that he’d never done this before) on something akin to “5 reasons why Baptists shouldn’t vote for JD Greear.” For transparency’s sake, I was not at this meeting but I was contacted by a number of attendees and told about the shocking display of impropriety which took place before the historic convention in St. Louis. I wish I had specifics to offer regarding his talk, but none of that portion of his speech was reported on in the Baptist Message the following week. When asked why that portion was not reported on in the print media it was said, “Well, we can’t print everything that happens in the meeting.” Keep in mind, it wasn’t just something that was said, I understand that it was the key portion of his address.
Forward to yesterday afternoon (March 15th). I was sent information that the LBC is the host of and likely designed the website for Dr. Ken Hempill’s 2018 presidential campaign, www.kenhemphill2018.com. Can you imagine? A large state convention’s Executive Director publicly and in his official capacity during a plenary speech, forcefully and deliberately lobbying against a candidate and then two years later, that same state convention actually HOSTING the CAMPAIGN website for their particular candidate on the state convention servers. It is unheard of and it is inappropriate.
Think about this friends, Pastors in Louisiana who are either still deciding who will receive their vote, or for those who, God forbid, intend to vote for Dr. Greear, our state convention is the online (and arguably print) headquarters of the “traditionalist candidate.” In all honesty, given what we have seen from the Baptist Message and the actions of LBC leaders, this turn of events should not surprise anyone. Yet, I remain shocked by this action. I must ask, does ANYONE else in this state have a problem with this terribly inappropriate use of our convention resources and the clear lack of concern for those of us who might be on the other side of this aisle as it relates to the coming election?
I’ve attempted in times past to point to the manipulation and hubris of the actions of some of our state leaders, but most of those words fell on deaf ears. Surely now my brother Pastors will finally speak up about this action. Surely this is such a clear violation of common cooperation and convention work that someone will do something about it. Or will it be more of the same… good pastors, not wanting to rock the boat for fear that they might be blackballed from the cool kids table, or worse yet be passed over for that big church in the parish seat?
Please Pastors do the right thing and call for change. Call for change in the tired and entrenched leadership, call for transparency, call for a laying down of arms, call for the inclusion of all our churches that voluntarily function in accordance with the BFM, and call for an end to the divisive and mean-spiritedness which has gone on for too long in this state convention.
I am calling on pastors of the LBC to contact the Executive Office of our state convention and demand that (1) convention employees cease their open (meaning in their official capacity as a convention employee) campaigning for one candidate over another, (2) to cease the open negative speak about one candidate over another and to (3) immediately cease hosting the “campaign website” (I can’t believe I’m even writing these words) of any candidate for the Presidency of the SBC, unless of course, they want to host sites for BOTH candidates as a ministry and service to the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention. However, something tells me it won’t get that far.
In the same paragraph of the earlier mentioned Lord Acton quotation he also wrote, “There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.” It’s time we open our eyes and admit that the Louisiana Baptist Convention is broken and is in desperate need of real and lasting cultural change. We CAN do something about it! The question is, who has the backbone?
Click here and scroll to the bottom of my original article to view the digital proof of the above accusations and concerns.
What a disaster. I’m trying to imagine pretty much any other state convention office at the time an idea like this is floated… “even thought it’s usually considered in bad taste to campaign for SBC President… maybe we should help run a campaign for one of the announced SBC presidential nominees… that’s a great idea! I’m sure no one else would be capable of that unless we host the website and all the media files for them! I’m sure the churches will really appreciate our venture into something like this! We can even tweet out links to the website and media from the state convention account!” “Hey guys, maybe this isn’t such a good idea.” “You’re right, what were we thinking?”
Oh come on, what’s a little corrupt CP funding diversion for political purposes among friends?
Okay, wow – I’m guessing this gets NO traffic.
I want to say a couple of things. First, while I didn’t post this myself (the “Brain Trust” handled it), I think it certainly qualifies under the category of SBC news and opinion.
Second, I want to speak to the topic of SBC presidential campaigning. I actually have no problem with campaigning for president. I think it is silly that we have pretended that the “office seeks the man.” What a myth. Men have sought after and campaigned for the SBC presidency for decades, but we’ve maintained this facade that we don’t do all that secular campaigning.
However, if this is true, that a state convention office secretly hosted a campaign website, I have problems with that.
In general, I think ENTITIES ought to be neutral. I know that in the past entity leaders have given endorsements, but I am not sure that is a good thing. State convention presidents and entity leaders may give personal words of encouragement, even endorsements (I’d prefer they didn’t) but they should not join in active campaigning.
If what Jay alleges here is true, and I have no reason to doubt him, it is troubling for sure.
This presidential campaigning thing, let’s face it, guys…it’s tricky.
But not surprising. At all. It’s been going on for years, just not in the public eye.
And, if it is NOT true, the jury will “disregad it” and “unhear it.”
Of course, Dr. Hemphill has disavowed any divergence of any CoOp funds. Of course, as with all such discussions, the bias is always on one side only, or not.
We just can’t seem to distance ourselves as S.B.’s from any and every controversy. The National Convention is nearly 100% political, and has been for my entire 40 years of ministry at least. Politics is a dirty business as the saying goes–even dirtier when it is “religious politics.”
It’s out there now . . . Ken Hemphill diverted CoOp funds to anchor his political power grab for leadership of the SBC. His victim is his poor, defenseless, non-campaigning opponent. That’s the buzz.
The good news, if there is any in all this, is that the vast majority of SB churches have little or no interest in National Denominational politics. The bad news in this, and there is plenty, is that the creeping disinterest in National denominational politic is being reflected more and more in local State and Associational fellowships.
I don’t know Mr. Greer (I’d have to even look up the spelling of his name), but I am sure he is a conscientious pastor who wants to do something to support a denomination he apparently has some connection with. I hate seeing implications he has any other motives but wanting to help.
I do know Dr. Hemphill, from working for him for three years of my seminary sentence. I’ve shared a coffee in the student lounge with him. I’ve heard him preach several times. I hate to see implications he has ulterior, devious motives for a Convention “take over” and is willing to stoop to any level to do so. I guess that is possible, but I don’t buy it.
Jack: You write that you do not know JD Greear. You obviously have a computer, so I would think if as a pastor, you wanted the truth in this, you would do research on him and on this situation. Both would serve to inform you of both who JD Greear is and the facts of this situation.
Also you write about bias, but yet show your own bias in the last paragraph. Do some research of the facts and find out who JD Greear is. He may or may not be the next Convention President. That alone surely warrants your time finding the facts.
Jack: I might also add, no one is condemning Ken Hemphill. I personally think him to be a good man, and one that would also make a good President of our Convention, if he is still his own man as he seemed to be in the past. I also know that men such as Dr. Hankins and others can pretty well talk a hibernating bear into buying a bed with the idea that it is a necessity for a good winter’s nap. This is what I see happened if any impropriety were done. I sincerely hope not, as this is not a win at any price nor should it be. I would be disappointed if Dr. Hemphill did this and knew because I truly respect both men running for President and was fine no matter who won.
Did Dr. Hemphill approve this?
He’s featured in videos & interviews where he talks about “why I’m running for SBC President.” There’s plenty of evidence that this was done with his knowledge, cooperation, and permission.
Man…good point. I’m going to hold out hope and assume he didn’t know that CP dollars were being used until proven otherwise. I really hope he didn’t (assuming everything that has been brought to light has been true).
I have an email that certainly makes it look like he is complicit in this action.
Jay, I’m sad to hear that. Thanks for all the work you put in to this.
Let me say again, I don’t think there is ANYTHING wrong with the site, from my point of view, other than the fact that a state convention is hosting it.
And SECRETLY.
I do hope not.
Dave,
I don’t disagree. My problem is knowingly using CP to do so. That’s a big problem, and if I’m completely honest, not inconsistent with what I have seen from the LBC in the past….
If CP funds were used to pay for the website of ONE of the candidates for SBC president, and that can be established, then Louisiana pastors should rise up and demand an apology and perhaps some resignations.
THAT is the key issue for me.
“Or will it be more of the same… good pastors, not wanting to rock the boat for fear that they might be blackballed from the cool kids table, or worse yet be passed over for that big church in the parish seat?”
I fear this to be a major reason that such conduct continues unchecked in not only the state convention in reference here, but in others also. Sad times for sure.
I am of the opinion that this is going to tarnish his reputation as being a man of integrity. I think the proper course would be for him to withdraw the nomination and apologize for this gross miss use of Cooperative Program dollars and resources in the Louisiana Baptist Convention. If Dr. Hemphill did not realize Cooperative Program dollars would be used to make this then he is in the clear but should still withdraw. I know people are trying to equate this to the YouTube video that was made a couple of years ago, but this in no way is similar. That was created by a pastors wife from J.D.’s church with her own camera on her own time and did not cost a dime. While there were endorsement on the video, everyone knows that they were not paid. Everyone knows that entity leaders in the convention always endorse a candidate in some form or fashion. This is true for the more Reformed group in the Southern Baptist Convention and true in the Traditionalist group as well. I’m fine with campaigning for the office, but what I’m not fine with is Cooperative Program dollars being used. The Louisiana Baptist Convention has some serious questions to answer.
I do not want to defend anything here.
But let me play devil’s advocate. I don’t know how tech-savvy Dr. Hemphill is. We know that Dr Hankins and the LBC people were the driving forces behind his candidacy (well, that is the story everyone seems to believe).
If LBC offered its expertise to set up a website and it was all done above board, Hemphill paid for it, and such, I’d be uneasy but I’d be willing to give it a pass.
But this is bad because it was done in secret. There was nothing that seemed to publicly admit to the LBC link.
I am fighting the urge to respond to every single comment with, “It’s tricky.”
*giggles
It’s tricky indeed.
Ronnie Parrott and Baptist 21 have weighed in on this.
https://baptist21.com/sbc/2018/louisiana-baptist-convention-cp-dollars-presidential-politics/
If you want to know the point of view from someone sympathetic to the other side, I feel like this activity has been going on for quite some time now by those in the Greear Camp, and I just want to welcome you to the “I feel like my Cooperative Program funds are being used to promote ideas I oppose by the leaders of the other denominational wing” club.
In my opinion, there is no significant difference between a national entity leader appearing in a video released to the public, sending a tweet, writing an endorsement letter, making a phone call, sending out emails, or otherwise using their CP-funded equipment, time, office, and platform to promote their preferred candidate, and a state entity leader using their CP-provided equipment, time, office, and platform to promote their preferred candidate.
These are almost precisely the same. The distinction without a difference is that a website is a slightly different form of communication from a tweet, email, phone call, facebook post, or text. But each of these forms of communication were produced using the time, equipment, office, and platform of Cooperative Program fund receiving executives in Southern Baptist life.
While this dynamic is true for both sides, in this case, the Greear side has the distinction of being the first to use their resources to campaign for him. The Hemphill side followed suit afterward. It has been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Just take it as a compliment.
You can’t really be saying this, can you?
You are comparing a comedy rap video put out by a young woman at her own expense to a website put up secretly by a state convention to actively support one candidate.
A bunch of folks jokingly said, “It’s tricky.”
Here, a state convention secretly published a campaign website.
And you can see NO difference? None?
This is shameful, Rick. Shameful.
The intellectual dishonesty required to argue those are the same thing is beyond me.
This isn’t comparing apples to apples. This isn’t even comparing apples to oranges. It’s comparing apples to cats.
Rick: I know you are an intelligent person who can’t believe the two are the same thing. That is ludicrous.
This shows what happens when you allow political zeal to interrupt your discernment. You compare a harmless fun video to the political machinations of a state convention – and you claim there is no difference.
Rick, there was a time when you were better than this.
So, Rick, is this lbc action proper? You’re OK with it?
And, lest we allow facts to get in the way of things, Rick, when Ashley made her video (which was fun – you should be ashamed of all that you did to her in response to it!) there was only ONE candidate. Steve Gaines had not announced.
NONE of those who said, “he’s tricky” (and that’s ALL they did) were endorsing Greear over Gaines. She made a funny video – and it was harmless until you and your friends tried to turn it into something shameful – BEFORE there were two candidates.
The leadership of LBC enlisted a candidate to run against Greear – partisan. They secretly put forward a website. You folks have spread all kinds of negative (and I’d say slanderous) words about Greear.
That you cannot see the difference is mind-boggling.
Rick,
You know what I’m not mad anymore that you banned me from your site. The level of intellectual dishonesty that runs amuck over there is impressive. I just wish you’d acknowledge how ridiculous your post sounds. Read it out loud. Do you really believe what you’ve written? Honestly?
“In my opinion, there is no significant difference between a national entity leader appearing in a video released to the public, sending a tweet, writing an endorsement letter, making a phone call, sending out emails, or otherwise using their CP-funded equipment, time, office, and platform to promote their preferred candidate, and a state entity leader using their CP-provided equipment, time, office, and platform to promote their preferred candidate.”
Let’s see here…did the messengers of the LBC authorize this action? Did the Executive Board, let me answer that one for you because I’ve heard the answer is NO. Don’t you believe the money that was spent would have better gone to good use supporting, oh I don’t know, maybe a missionary, or church plant, or seminary student from Louisiana? I mean come on Rick. This is absolutely not like a pastors wife using her own time to support her pastor with a funny video or someone using their Twitter account to congratulate J.D. for the nomination. You’ve clearly drank way too much Kool-Aid. The vitriol your site has for J.D. is bizarre and unChristian. I’d call y’all to repent, but I’ve done it before and it just meets deaf ears.
Rick,
So, Ashley made the video as a fun joke to support her pastor when NO ONE ELSE WAS RUNNING and called people she knew to say “it’s tricky” WHEN NO ONE ELSE WAS RUNNING and you are really going to equate that with the Louisiana Baptist Convention supporting and hosting a campaign website that launched after JD announced?
That is ludicrous and a completely ridiculous comparison. You are not a stupid man. Everyone knows that. But, what you wrote above makes no sense at all.
I also don’t care if candidates campaign. It’s best to throw off the old “unspoken rules” anyway. They were always a farce. Obviously, all of the consternation expressed two years ago when Ashley released her video was totally false and fake. Someone should apologize to her.
Seriously.
I hope you will lead the way because if you’re going to use her fun video as your excuse for this, you really should talk to your boys who expressed outrage two years ago and tell them to apologize. They were telling us all about “standards” and “appropriateness” then but now, you use her playful video WHEN NO ONE ELSE WAS RUNNING as the cover for THIS?
That is a shame.
I’ve never met Ashley, but I know that she had fun and then these men cruelly turned it into something she felt guilty about.
Rick and his friends ought to feel ashamed for what they did to her – using her as a pawn.
Rick,
You are really reaching here, I think. The young lady who made the video was little more than a kid in many ways. The people who lead the LBC are full grown adults with years of service to Southern Baptists behind them. Most of them have been around the SBC as long as I have and much longer than you.
You are stretching this to absurdity, Brother, to make a point of defense for something that only makes it more indefensible.
You need to walk this back, don’t you think?
Rick,
I want you to be honest. Like, really honest. And I want you to really think through this question. Don’t just respond quickly after you read this question. Really think through this and please, with everything in you, be honest.
Do you really not see the difference between a girl making a fun video about her pastor running for the president (before there was any opposition) and a state convention funding a campaign for someone running for President with CP dollars?
Please, please, please be honest and think through that question.
The campaign video is not primarily the issue. I don’t think CP funds were used in her case, unless the person doing the video of Platt, Moore, et al, were CP receiving employees.
I’m mostly talking about CP recipients like Akin, Mohler, Platt, and Moore, using the communications devices in their offices, and their paid time, and their platform, to favor one candidate over another. Sorry if that was unclear and you thought I was only talking about the Rap Music Commercial.
I think it’s a little late to try to tapdance away from what you said, Rick.
I do think a public apology for the shameful and cruel way you treated Ashley is in order.
I also know it will never come.
There is no precedent of any of those you named nor anyone else using their entity resources to support any candidate. None. No one would bother if David Hankins personally tweeted or emailed his support of Hemphill. THAT would be a fair, and honest comparison. This is why none of us has any tolerance for you, Rick. This is intellectually dishonest and you blow through it like it’s no big deal. Politics over all. Truth is whatever serves the cause. It’s shameful.
To Ashley,
If you’re out there, I’m truly sorry for any pain I may have caused you. While the video and original song were not my cup of tea, I was mostly concerned that SBC Entity Heads were appearing in what looked to me like a fun, contemporary promotional video hyping JD’s candidacy.
At the time, I was offended by what I interpreted as their active campaigning. Since that time, such active campaigning by those men through various tweets, endorsements, and social media posts have become commonplace.
Please know that, at the time, my concern was with them and not with you. Please forgive me. I never intended to cause you any pain at all. Best of luck with your future video projects.
To All Others:
We can clear up much of this misunderstanding if you will simply look at my original comment and strike eight words from my second paragraph: “appearing in a video released to the public.”
My argument does not hang on the video issue which has become a distraction. It focuses more on other forms of communication, like tweets, emails, letters, phone calls, social media posts, websites, and texts.
Baptist leaders on both sides use their time, office, equipment, and platform to share their denominational political views. Our CP funds afford them with these communication tools.
Well, anyway, it’s Friday. Good luck on your brackets. Hook Em Horns!
A sincere apology would be TO Ashley and involve less explanation and justification, it would seem.
You know, J.D. Greear and Ken Hemphill are both good, solid Southern Baptists. Either would make fine a fine president of the convention. I believe either one of them could help Southern Baptist churches fulfill the Great Commission through their leadership of the SBC.
Therefore, I think it would have been really refreshing had all the “king makers” stayed out of it and just let those who attend the SBC in June cast their votes and allow the newly elected president to fill the role.
Wishful and probably foolish thinking I know, but what if . . .
CB,
I completely agree with you. Let the messengers decide! This shadiness needs to end.
I don’t completely agree.
I don’t see anything wrong with a candidate putting forward his platform. This mythology that we simply meet at the convention and God places his hand on someone – well, uh, no.
If you feel led to run, run. Tell us what you plan to do. Explain why you think you should be elected. Post a website, if you wish.
None of that is wrong.
But all things in public and no secret nonsense.
///I think it would have been really refreshing had all the “king makers” stayed out of it and just let those who attend the SBC in June cast their votes and allow the newly elected president to fill the role.///
THIS!
If it was done with private money, why was it secret?
Since we are to avoid the apperance of evil, then if it was done with private money, should it not have been loudly proclaimed so as to not bring disrepute onto the candidate?
Mike,
To quote Johnny Cash
“Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand
Workin’ in the dark against your fellow man
But as sure as God made black and white
What’s done in the dark will be brought to the light”
James,
Yep.
Our church website is on a platform by lifeway but that doesn’t mean lifeway is endorsing my church or its beliefs. There are lots that happen that are not voted on by the messengers of the SBC or you supply the alphabet convention.
Are you suggesting that this is nothing more than LBC hosting his website?
Even Rick, with his strained and tortured defense, did not advocate that.
Greg,
did you pay Lifeway?
Uh, yep. They provided a service and it was a neutral one.
Did supporters of Greear help pay for Hemphill’s website? uh, yeah.
Were they asked if their CP moneys should go to support a different candidate? Uh, no.
You dont see the problem?
You can’t see the difference?
Good point
before we ask for another special prosecutor perhaps we should just think positive and not jump to the conclusion someone is being “TRICKY” . 🙂
Well, LBC has admitted the facts of the story. So, something about denial and a river in Egypt or something.
Louisiana Baptist Convention has admitted it all.
https://brnow.org/News/March-2018/Hemphill-unveils-campaign-website-backed-by-Louisi
brnow is clearly the best Baptist journalism around.
Keep reaching greg. Keep reaching, you might accidently hit on truth.
There is perhaps a reason for this: maybe the LCB feels that Dr. Hemphill’s election is the best course for the SBC. I will wait for their answer . I have in my years as a SBC church member and pastor often felt that the state newspapers did or didn’t speak for me as a SB. I do note that there are only 50 comments and normally only 200 max or so on a “hot thread” so, perhaps people in our pews are not as tuned into as we are to the issues. Peace
As I said above greg……
Greg, I don’t measure posts by how many comments they get, but I will tell you that this posts hits are now measured in the thousands. So, there does seem to be interest. And it has only been out a few hours. I am guessing that by tomorrow it will reach that couple hundred comment threshold – will that satisfy you?
Honestly, I often wonder if there is ANYTHING unethical or underhanded that some of these folks could do that some of you wouldn’t support. Our ethics and morals can never be subsumed into our political agendas. Never.
Sir I haven’t supported anything underhanded or unethical.
I was commenting on the fact that a lot of the people in the pews don’t seem to be as worked up over issues that seem to energize the same 200 hundred or so regular commenters on this site.
You certainly SEEM to be excusing this action.
You SEEM to be saying that a state convention secretly setting up a website and advocating for a presidential candidate is not a big deal.
Am I wrong?
But my comment is directed in GENERAL, not just at you. I wonder why there are folks who will NEVER condemn certain folks no matter what they do.
So, Greg, what is YOUR opinion of what the LBC did?
Look, Rick was making a false (totally false, without any justification) accusation a few weeks ago about JD and some PR firm. I don’t think he ever apologized for that, but I’m told he altered his accusation slightly when he was confronted with the truth.
Can you imagine if JD had a website sponsored by NAMB, or by BRNow, or by some other SBC entity? People would be squawking like you can’t imagine. Remember that they savaged Ashley for making a fun video – when no one else was in the race. Savaged her.
I don’t mind JD or Ken or anyone having a website. Shoot, if LBC wants to set that up, for a fee, then more power to them.
But this is NOT appropriate. Why can’t you just say that?
Oh the howling if JD had done anything even close to this. But now it will be “good for the goose/gander” thing. Truly sad for the state of affairs and if I may say, any credibility Rick had left has evaporated.
Since the first day I began blogging I’ve seen the “goose/gander” argument used and I have never accepted it.
We do not accept situational ethics and the sins or misdeeds of others do not justify ours.
Men and women of integrity hold their own side accountable, they do NOT justify what their side does because the other side did it first or the other side is worse.
Agre Dave. RP has used it often. Sadly.
Brother Jay,
A few corrections & thoughts:
*The LBC keeps a higher percentage of CP money in the state than any other state convention”- This is simply not true. Check your facts. The LBC does not keep more than any other state convention. It is also worth noting that the LBC has (and has had) a plan in place to advance our percentage split to SBC, even before it was “cool” to do so. That plan was actually written by Dr. Hankins.
*LC gets as much money from LBC as it does because it is the ONLY Baptist college in LA. Most states have more than one Baptist college.
*”Lack of transparency in financial accountability from the Executive Committee”- the books of the LBC are open to the Executive Board and regularly audited by a CPA. For you to publicly allege lack of financial accountability without specific evidence is sin in the camp and a personal slap to every member of the Executive Board. Anyone can ask the LBC about specifics other than items related to specific personnel issues that cannot legally be publicly divulged.
*”Political expediency rules the day here in the Pelican state’s Baptist Convention”- I believe the Presidents of SBTS, SEBTS, and ERLC have publicly endorsed JD Greear. That a SBC entity president would endorse a candidate is far more troubling than a state convention president doing so. Have you exposed them? Have you called on them to cease and desist?
Eric,
The “advance plan” is really no plan. It hinges on churches giving more to the LBC. Which has not been the trend. When asked to consider a new plan, it has been met with a resounding no. Why?
To the last part of your comment, the issue is not Dr Hankins endorsing Hemphill. He made clear 2 years ago to the Executive Board that he adamantly opposed Greear.
The issue is that CP dollars have been used to clearly endorse a candidate. I am also wondering if CP funds are being used to provide meals at the Hemphill speaking engagements across the state of Louisiana. I know LBC disaster relief teams are at the very least cooking the meals.
Obviously, you are in Louisiana. So if you can answer any of this, I’d love to hear it.
Brother Ben,
The “advance plan” actually hinges on LA Baptist churches contributing an amount over the CP budget (and this year’s CP budget is last year’s receipts). When that happens, the amount given over the budget is split 50/50 between LBC and SBC. Then, the next and successive year’s split is automatically adjusted by the surplus sent to SBC (as a percentage). Even if there are budget shortfalls in later years, the split is maintained. You say it is really no plan, but it has resulted in a 1.74% increase in the SBC portion over the years. I wish the progress was faster, but, as you said, it has not been the trend for churches to give more.
The Executive Board has not considered a new plan because the LBC budget is lean–as lean as it has ever been. To go to a 50/50 split would be detrimental to LBC missions and ministries, especially in light of the 2020 plan which calls for 300 church plants before 2020.
It is my understanding at this point that no CP dollars were used for the website.
Eric,
I appreciate your explanation of the “advance plan.” I am aware of the small increase that has been made in the last several years. 1.74% over 11 years is not a “win,” however. Surely, in that amount of time the LBC could have made some changes that showed the intention to move closer to 50/50.
As far as CP dollars used for the website, I guess it’s semantics now. Convention employees created, built, and hosted the website. Dr. Hemphill paid for the site to be hosted on the server. That is a true statement, but he did not pay for the employees who worked on the site, Louisiana Baptists did.
As a Louisiana Baptist, I would expect that at the least, if my CP dollars were going to be used for SBC politics, they would be used for any candidate who asked for us to assist. It is my understanding, though, that in Louisiana it has been made clear that only Dr. Hemphill’s site could be, or would be, hosted.
Thank you for your response and I appreciate your earlier email. I made the change to my omission from your first point on my blog but I can’t seem to get to change it on this site.
To your Paragraph #1
Dr. Hankins literally wrote the book on the Cooperative program and in it, while he was still working in Nashville working at the Executive Committee he argued, and I quote “State conventions each send a percentage of Cooperative Program receipts on to the SBC. The goal was for a fifty-fifty split, with the state convention keeping half and the SBC receiving the other half.” (One Sacred Effort, Brand and Hankins, pg 97). Further, I can tell you that when asked that question on the floor of the convention about 4 years ago, his response was something to the effect of, we could consider doing that if our churches would send more money. Dr. Hankins has been at the helm of this state for maybe 12 years and we have not made the slightest move in that direction. Isn’t that enough time to have moved that way? You are well heard on your point regarding LA keeping more money than any other state. That is a typo on my part. Clearly that would not be the case with the frontier states. I intended to say than any other state in the south. I will be happy to edit that.
To your Paragraph #2
I have done more research on this topic than I care to dredge up here. As a concerned 6-year member on the Board of Trustees for LC I can assure you I know what I’m talking about. There are other states that have only one college. Further, If all these schools in other states with multiple institutions can function with lower funding, wouldn’t one assume that LC should or at least could attempt similarly? Especially considering the lop-sided eye-test when paired with the other stats related to other entities? Would it be better to use this example: say last year a Louisiana church gave a $10,000 gift to the LBC, if that was the case LC would have received $1,491 (at 14.91%) and all 6 seminaries together would have received a total of $814.16 (at 8.14%). This could be and in my opinion SHOULD be challenged.
To your Paragraph #3
All I know is as a pastor of a Church in Louisiana for over 16 years, I cannot call to request detailed information on the expenses of, for instance, the Executive Office in Alexandria. That is a fact. That is a clear lack of financial accountability at least on the part of a concerned pastor. Why not share that info? If you are a pastor, may I ask, do members of your church have the privilege to receive expense reports if they were to ask for them? I don’t mean openly publishing salaries, but do they have the right to know where and how their money is being spent. I assume your church practices this, why would not the convention? By the way, I’m not the only pastor who has asked about this, a number of my pastor friends have also been denied such information.
To your Paragraph #4
I know of no entity head who, in their official capacity, has spoken negatively of one candidate and willfully, and with convention resources, campaigned for another candidate to the degree of hosting a campaign website (something I assume has NEVER been done before). Have the Presidents of these entities privately, or on social media, or in their personal life encourage voting for one candidate over another, I believe so, as they have the right to do. However, I would absolutely take them to task if they, like Dr. Hankins, addressed the plenary session of their Board and told their trustees reasons why people shouldn’t vote for a certain candidate. I know of NO other entity head who has ever done that.
When I write, I am fully prepared with facts, or I don’t write. Of course I do thank you for pointing out my lack of clarity on the first item. I will adjust that accordingly. Also, I would love to sit down with you or communicate more fully over a phone call or meeting if you would like. I would be happy to share much, much more information that I have which I have chosen at this point not yet to publish.
Brother Jay,
We do have a plan already in place to take the LBC to a 50/50 split, instituted by Dr. Hankins himself. We have moved toward 50/50 by a 1.74% increase. Perhaps we should spend our time promoting increased giving to the COOPERATIVE PROGRAM to get us there more quickly.
When you say we give less to SBC “than any other state in the south,” you are still incorrect. We give a greater percentage than at least 2 other southern states, one with a budget approximately double ours. Look it up.
I looked at a couple of neighboring state convention budgets to illustrate my point about college funding. LBC gives 14.91% to LC. The Mississippi Convention gives 19.03% to her 3 colleges. The Baptist General Convention of Texas gives 15.8% to her 11 schools. My point is simply that we give so much to LC because we have only one state Baptist college. Many other conventions have more than one college, which splits their education pie.
As a minister in this state, I, for one, have never been denied financial information from the Louisiana Baptist Convention. I have, on more than one occasion, asked for detail and seen said detail from accounting.
Let’s give Hemphill the benefit of the doubt here.
Sure, his words and face and voice are on the website. However – can it be shown clearly that he knew the funding sources?
It’s one thing to say there’s evidence pointing towards a relationship between Hankins and Hemphill; we could even assume Hankins offered to help set it all up. That still doesn’t imply Hemphill knew where the money was coming from and who was donating. It’s not a bad thing to trust a friend who says, “Let me handle this part, alright? You do all that other stuff and I can set up the website. No, I’ve got a way to cover the costs. Don’t sweat it.”
Consider just the videos. Did Hemphill choose the videographer? The video editor? Producer? Choose the format? Select a video hosting site? Website hosting service? Or did he turn to someone he trusted and say, “A little help?”
Let’s take a breath and see if Hemphill responds, or the LA Baptist Convention offers clarity. I think it’s a godly approach, this giving our brothers a chance to consider facts and respond…or even express regret and offer amends.
I don’t know that any of us are specifically upset at Hemphill here – though certainly, he had to know about this.
I think the real problem is LBC and what they did.
But I’d hope that Dr. Hemphill might speak to it.
Best comment so far!
I don’t know if it violates the charter of LBC or not. If it does it is certainly inappropriate . I do believe it was unwise for sure in this politically charged era that we live. People have always taken sides in the SBC elections and I wonder if there has been similar cases in the past that were kept secret or less known.
If the NOrth Carolina convention had produced a campaign website for JD, you wouldn’t be upset?
Let’s get real here!
Dave,
Often, ones zeal and/or desire clouds up ones thinking.
I would be upset (might be a strong word) if anyone sit up a site for JD, he already has the support of this one. BREATH DEEP AND RELAX I am just kidding.
Dave,
Like I said, BLIND.
Greg, he has my support.
I’ve offered supporters of Dr. Hemphill the opportunity to make a case for him, as long as they do not include the perquisite bashing of JD Greear. But no one has taken me up on that so far.
But we are not CP funded.
Are we seeing the traditions of Traditionalism?
I thought CP dollars were used to win the world to Christ not win an election for ones preferred candidate for SBC President.
I do hope if KH is not privy to CP funds being used this way that he will discover this poor decision… stand against it and call out those responsible at LBC, by name, to cease such activity immediately and separate himself from such actions. He needs to show he is pro CP funds being used for the right reasons. If he can’t or won’t, we need to know how he sees and supports CP monies being used.
Times have certainly changed. Anyone familiar with the Conservative Resurgence will remember the tide turned permanently when SBC entity heads began to campaign for the moderate candidates after a couple of conservative presidential wins.
Guys who had previously kept their heads down and pastored their churches entered the conflict because of the entity heads campaigning. John Bisagno, Joel Gregory, and Jim Henry, I believe, were leaders in this group that opposed such campaigning and entered the conflict.
I feel people that receive CP dollars should stay clear of such campaigning. If I were invested in a candidate who was opposed by someone whose salary is paid by CP dollars I would be annoyed.
While we as Baptists cannot set rules, I think we need to decide what the new guidelines are.
There’s no doubt, as I think you are hinting, that the CR kinda broke the model a little. Now, with websites and such, we are going into a new era.
I think a reasonable level of campaigning is perfectly fine, but I kinda think CP $$ oughta be neutral dollars.
Now, can a president or executive endorse privately without involving their entity? That’s tricky. But it seems possible.
However, I know of at least 2 state convention presidents who have pretty much put the weight of their state conventions behind a candidate. That seems to cross a line.
The problem is that in this new world, the lines are not clearly drawn.
During the CR one of the hot topics for a while was our SBC entity heads being political. When Russell Dilday preached his “Higher Ground” sermon in chapel many were offended that an entity head used a seminary chapel service to make his position clear in the battle.
I seem to remember Loyd Elder and Roy Honeycutt made some statements that were interpreted as sidining with the moderates.
Personal social media accounts and the like have complicated things but I am still persuaded an entity head being paid by cp dollars should remain neutral in the SBC presidential election.
Yes, Dean…exactly ….That’s why Dr. Hankins (a CP funded employee) speech almost a year ago against the idea of a Greear candidacy was so inappropriate… And he solidified that inappropriateness by using cooperative funds money to forward the campaign of his recruited and preferred candidate.
Dean Stewart,
Interpreted?
Brother, a Shanghai Rooster sitting atop a F-350 Ford truck out in the parking lot would have known e political nature of what SBC leaders on both sides of the isles were talking about back in the CR.
I happened then. It happens now. However, frequency of occurrence does not make something right or acceptable. Nor does the parties involved make something right or acceptable. This argument goes back to the goose and gander argument earlier in this thread.
Are you differentiating between national entity leaders and state convention leaders – or would you apply the same rules to both?
I am thinking through my own “suggested guidelines” for SBC campaigning.
I would not apply the rules to both. I distinguish between national and state execs.
Forget LA for a minute, I would not be to happy with people who are not invested in the Mississippi Baptist Convention telling us what our state exec needs to do or not do. We have a state board, an executive committee and a fabulous state executive director. They can handle our business. As for what we do with money we keep in the state, I can’t see how that is anyone in another convention’s concern.
However, we all are invested in the SBC. I am of the opinion our entity leadership should not promote a pastor over another for president of our convention.
I could see a state exec endorsing a pastor from his state as the SBC president and that not cause any concern. If the fine people of his state feel different that is their business not the business of the entire SBC.
Should a state exec have the blessing of his board before he campaigns for a candidate?
Dave, IMO I don’t think so.
I think, there again, the line gets blurry. I would say that we Arkansans, for example, have no business telling Mississippi or Louisiana what to do with their in-state behaviors (within Biblical certainty–which should be clear that we’re not really dealing with that here). If LBC’s Exec campaigns for or against a person for LBC President or as an in-state trustee for LC or other entity, then that’s not anybody’s business but Louisiana’s and they can deal with it through their own methods.
But here you have LBC investing in telling the rest of us what to do. That’s what a campaign website is: it’s a website telling the rest of us who to vote for.
That’s not inherently bad. However, if someone in Mississippi wants to push back and say that it’s not appropriate, then LBC can’t hide behind “don’t tell us what to do in our own state” when the behavior in question is explicitly for the purpose of telling other people what to do, in their own state. If this were an “info sheet for LBC churches,” then I would say none us out of LA should fuss, just like I would be highly irritated with the ABSC if we spent money advertising to tell South Carolina’s Baptists to do something. (They stole one of my friends to be their Exec, so….)
That’s one of those lines that’s blurrier now in the web era. An LBC opinion piece in the LBC paper, 20 years ago, or a sermon/message at an LBC event, etc., isn’t the rest of our business. But the LBC reaching out into Arkansas or Mississippi or North Carolina to tell the rest of us what to do, then it becomes open to being pushed back against.
Now, it should be a fair critique–
And as to State Execs or anyone employed campaigning: they should be free to do so, provided they accept any consequences from it. If Dr. Hankins discovers next month that the voting majority of LBC ExecComm members are pro-Greear and they fire him, he chose that path. Same thing in the other way with any of the entity presidents at the SBC level–if you use your platform in that manner and then your board takes you out, then you are facing the consequences of your actions.
Now, I figure the LBC board isn’t going to do that any more than SBTS or SEBTS would, but that’s my take. I’m on an entity board here in AR and our entity employees don’t get prior permission to speak on touchy issues, but from time-to-time we have had uncomfortable “please find a better way to do that next time” conversations. That’s what the board should do. LBC’s board should do what they believe is, within what is best for the mission of the LBC, best for the LBC.
Doug, it is a unique ethic that says a person endorsing a candidate is telling everyone what to do and therefore he invites rebuke from others. Dr. Hankins has not told you what to do. The website was not sent to everyone but you must access it. I spent 30 seconds on the website and I did not see Dr. Hankins name at all on the main page. Ken Hemphill has clearly stated it is his website and he is paying for it with his own money.
Dr. Hankins’ participation in this website is an LBC issue and they will deal with it how they see fit. Certainly, we can all blog about it and share our opinions, that is what we do, but no one outside the LBC has been affected by this. It seemed to me when Jay first posted his article there was a hue and cry because Dr. Hankins spent CP dollars on a website endorsing a candidate. That seems to be waining.
As a sidenote, the general attitude of mistrust of each other among Southern Baptist is the reason I don’t think offsite participation is a good idea for our annual meeting. Can you imagine if this year JD Greear were winning by a 53 – 47% margin on the paper ballots and when Louisiana’s electric totals came in they were so overwhelming for Ken Hemphill that it swung the election for him? I am certain there would be blogs claiming corruption. Our convention might never recover.
Jay,
Thanks for bringing this to the light of day. I thought the announcement of a website a few days ago was…bizarre. Now, I think this information makes those actions a travesty.
Then there’s TrickyRicky (let’s make him own his disdain and disparaging…which seems to be his trademark MO). He and his cadre of crusaders deserve to be relegated to the ash heap of our convention’s history in the same manner in which the Crusaders of old have been relegated in the annals of world history. Such desperation would be laughable if it weren’t so personally destructive (e.g. Ashley) and blight on the name of Southern Baptists today.
I am hopeful that the vast majority of engaged Southern Baptists today will not be tricked by the likes of Ricky into plunging our beloved convention into an SBC Dark Age.
Rick and 316, the Hankins father and Son team, Flowers and others have:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
Eric Hankins kinda looks like Aurthur Fonzirelli anyway. 😉
LEt’s try not to make this personal.
But since I would guess that being compared to the Fonz is more of a compliment, I will let it stand.
I quote these because I agree with these 2 statements
1) There’s no doubt, as I think you are hinting, that the CR kinda broke the model a little. Now, with websites and such, we are going into a new era.
I think a reasonable level of campaigning is perfectly fine, but I kinda think CP $$ oughta be neutral dollars.
2) I feel people that receive CP dollars should stay clear of such campaigning. If I were invested in a candidate who was opposed by someone whose salary is paid by CP dollars I would be annoyed.
I agree it was over the line, but not sure unethical or underhanded is the best description. Is that good enough for a blind guy. 🙂
I think Dr. Hemphill tweeted that he paid for the site …
It’s not on his twitter feed…
I think it is, I just found it on his tweets and replies.
I don’t know if it’s ok for me to link to it but here is what he said.
“I am thankful for my web site and those who helped develop it. For the record, I paid for it. I wanted a central place where I could share my concerns, convictions, and hopes for our SBC.. I am honored to be a candidate and hope you visit the site.”
I don’t know what he means by paying for it … raises more questions than it answers.
I found it. Thanks Alex.
I noticed someone asked him why his own state convention didn’t host his site. It does seem odd that Louisiana would instead…IMO
I hate to burst your bubble, but this kind of shenanigans is typical in the SBC. It is also why I left the SBC after 37 year. Guys, this kind of thing happens all day long in the good ol SBC. My suggestion is that you give more money to the CP, that might help. In all seriousness, I really hate to see this, and I hope the SBC repents of all of its sins.
“If we don’t stop the ‘Calvinist take-over’, evangelism will die in the SBC.” -Traditionalists
“Hey, we should use CP dollars to run a presidential campaign.” -Also Traditionalists
What is ironic is that the Trads are gearing up to use CP giving as a differentiating factor in the election, and then they used it for campaigning….
https://goo.gl/images/ijRLU7
Dr. John Yeats of Missouri has also been actively and relentlessly engaging in partisan political advocacy for Ken Hemphill.
Since he is a convention officer this could cause a dilemma.
Wow, that’s exciting! I’ve been needing a website for my church, $50 is a steal! I’m sure LBC wouldn’t mind giving me the same deal, right? After all, my need is to actually get people to church and share the Gospel with them. Plus, I’m just as much from Louisiana as Ken is, so that can’t be a reason to tell me no.
Great point Nick. I am sure there are a plethora of churches in Louisiana who would love to have the services of the state convention personnel and their expertise, high quality equipment, and a hosting for center for their church websites for $50.
Paying such a small amount for a domain name and hosting package is certainly a good deal.
*Paying such a small amount for a domain name, hosting package and content development is certainly a good deal.
I think either of these guys will make a good SBC President.
I remember the CR well. Dr. Honeycutt declared “Holy War” from the Chapel of Southern Seminary in 1983 (I believe I have that date right). Dr. Dilday (SWBTS) and __________ (Foreign Missions Board)(Can’t remember his name) came out openly in support of Winfred Moore against Charles Stanley in 1985. It was said at that time that was the first time entity leaders openly campaigned for an SBC Pres. candidate.
Of course, State convention newspapers have always weighed in on this. ALL of the state papers (except Indiana) editorialized against Adrian Rogers becoming President in 1979.
I would prefer that entity leaders not recommend, vouch for, or campaign for candidates publicly. They still do so privately, however. And they probably send employees to the Convention meeting on the entity dime if they are supportive.
It’s impossible to police this kind of thing. But I really do wish entity leaders would remain silent.
I do not believe that the property of state conventions should be used to support one candidate. LBC should apologize and offer to host a video put together by Greear.
Vol, the article says, “Hankins told North Carolina’s Biblical Recorder newsjournal last week, “Our communications team gave counsel” regarding the website. “We have a lot of people writing articles, a wide ranging group of people.”
“We are glad to host the website,” Hankins said, “because we believe it is in the best interest of the Louisiana Baptist Convention, and we are excited about the opportunity for people to know Ken Hemphill and how he can lead us as the next president.””
Now I don’t know, so I’m asking. Does any CP giving by churches help pay for the computer system, the communications team, and Dr. Hankins’ pay package?
Les
http://www.bpnews.net/50552/hemphill–no-cp-funds-used-for-sbc-candidate-website
That article emanates the tacit admition that the server was paid for by LBC and those working to construct the site were LBC employees. That is CP funding working to establish and tech support the site…a site which breaks with the TRADITIONAL SBC approach to nominating and selecting our convention President. THE WHOLE THING, not just the CP component is simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Let non-affiliated blogs—like I have participated in previously as well as here—interview candidates equally, without bias. It’s worked before and served us well.
Note that none of this stuff came up until Adkins made the matter public. There was a lack of openness and transparency. After the fact, we get all this. There are still questions.
Good article by BP.
Exactly, Mr. Thornton.
This “website partnership” was secret and clandestine until Jay shed sunlight on it….
Then we get *some* answers to the questions Jay raised and brought to light – however there are still many questions that have not been Answered.
Also, let’s not forget that the oft mentioned “large cross-section of concerned Southern Baptists”(by Dr. Hankins in numerous articles) who recruited Hemphill as a candidate is still largely unidentified as well.
I’ve known Ken Hemphill for all 43 years of my life because he’s my dad. And if there’s one thing I’d love for everyone to know, it’s that he’s a man of integrity. Nothing he’s ever done in his long life of ministry has been for a “power grab.” In fact, he’s been willing to let go of positions of influence when he believed the Lord was calling him in a different direction.
I hope that the distinctions between different pastors within the SBC aren’t exaggerated in the conversations running up to the convention. Because what unites us is so much greater than what may divide some. Here are a few things I’m absolutely sure of: Both my dad and J.D. Greear are men of integrity and Godly character. Both men have been effective pastors and leaders. Both men believe in the gospel, are passionate about evangelism, are committed to the fulfillment of the Great Commission, honor Baptist distinctives, and love the church deeply, and want to see healthy, flourishing churches across our convention. Both men would be exceptional presidents.
The quality of these leaders is something to celebrate. May the Lord establish the work of their hands. And may the tenor of the conversations leading up to the convention bring glory and honor to Christ, who is head of the church. The future of the SBC will not be dictated by one election, it will be crafted by daily decisions we all make in our homes and in our communities to reflect the character of the one who is our hope and our salvation.
Tina, thank you for your comments here. Wonderful tribute to your dad and very kind words as well about JD.
I don’t personally know your dad. However from a distance and from what I’ve read and heard over the years I totally believe your dad to be a godly man of the highest integrity.
May God richly bless you and your family.
I have a high level of respect for Ken Hemphill, although I likely do not share all of his views. I don’t believe there has been a syllable of personal criticism of him here. The problem is with some supporters, their actions and words.
Tina, What a great addition to the discussion. I’m glad you commented and appreciate what you’ve said here. I echo what William said about the criticism here being directed at some of Hemphill’s major supporters (who are crossing lines they know shouldn’t be crossed, but have decided for some reason that they’re going to engage in those actions anyway), and not at Hemphill himself.
Tina, what a great tribute to your father and thank you for this important call to stay focused on what binds us together. Thank you. I’ve never met your father, but have respected him from afar. You make me want to meet him, thank you.
The concerns I’ve heard are not directed to your father, per se, but rather to some of the dealings surrounding this process. I hope that the respect Southern Baptists have for the man and concerns for how this process is playing out with some of those supporting him can be kept separate. They are in my mind, at least.
Tina,
I echo all the comments of respect and admiration for your father.
I have noted several times in my comments that I believe (and hope I’m right) him to be a godly man of integrity over and against some of his most vocal supporters and certainly better than the unseemly tactics some are using on his behalf.
It remains my position that the shady political machinations and tactics going on confirm what we’ve known for some time about a certain cast of characters – but simultaneously are not in line with what I’ve long believed and observed from a distance in the ministry of Dr. Hemphill.
I’m trying real hard to separate the shameful tactics of some and Dr. Hemphill personally… Thank you for the reminder to resist any temptation toward conflating those.
Tina,
Thank you for responding. I hope it is clear that I took great care to not focus the content of this article on your father. I have long respected Dr. Hemphill and have a number of his books in my library. I do believe that his purpose for entering the race is altruistic and above reproach. However, I do NOT believe that is the case for those who enlisted him to serve in this way. I am surprised that he allowed a campaign website to be erected for his run (in my understanding the presidency of the SBC has been free from such overt campaigning on the part of the candidate) but as I noted earlier, I’m not really bothered by the notion and believe that such a thing actually might be helpful for the convention AS LONG AS IT’S NOT DONE BY A STATE CONVENTION OR SBC ENTITY (but it is still very unusual and thus, uncomfortable for me to see at this point).
Again, I appreciate your interaction here and am thankful for your kind and disarming words. They are needed and add substance to this post.