Les Puryear is in the process of planting a church with very little funding. At his blog, “Joining God in His Work“, he gave some very helpful suggestions how someone might plant a church without a large bankroll behind him. I asked him for permission to reprint that here.
With all the discussion over the funding of church planting, I thought I would share how we are planting a new Southern Baptist church with no outside funding. Yes, that’s right; no outside funding. It can be done. Here’s how we’re doing it.
1. Get a secular job.
Don’t take any salary from the new church until the church can meet its financial needs for startup costs and weekly expenses. Also, when you are in a secular job, you are actually around lost people. These are the people you are trying to reach with your new church plant.
2. Put your children in public school and have your wife get a secular job.
There’s nothing worng with having your children in public school. They will get out of it what they put into it. Also, your children need to learn how to be around lost people. Being around lost people provides opportunities for witnessing for Christ. Your wife needs to be around lost people too.
3. Start a weekly bible study in your home.
Let the people know that the plan is for the bible study to ultimately become a church.
4. Once the bible study outgrows your home, find space to rent.
We outgrew our home bible study in two months. Thankfully, the Lord provided a local YMCA for our meetings. Your local YMCA is a great place for a new church plant.
5. Join your local Southern Baptist association, state convention, and the SBC. Cooperation is key for any SBC church. Join the SBC. As a member of the SBC, your church will automatically have tax exempt status. This will save you $850 in legal fees to become a 501c3 entity.
6. Pray, pray, pray.
Nothing will happen without prayer. You can never pray too much.
“”There’s nothing worng with having your children in public school.””
I’m sure you mean well and I applaud you for what you offer in starting churches with little or no funding (I’ve started two that way).
But, the above sentence is like a land mine in the middle of a beautiful pasture. Nothing could be further from the truth. Telling people “there’s nothing wrong with putting children in public school because they will get out of it what they put into it” is like saying: “go play in the traffic; it will be OK as long as you are careful.”
If one’s only way to “start a church” is to sacrifice your children’s hearts and minds in government-controlled, Prussian-style, tracking-based school then I’d say, God hasn’t called you to start a church.
Any good that might come from starting a church is greatly outweighed by government run schooling.
Again, I’m sure you mean well, but that one statement simply cannot go unchallenged. I’m sure you see it as a very small part of your post, but a land mine is a very small percentage of a field but the results of stepping on it are extremely grave.
I’m amazed that you did not say, “homeschool your children,” but instead “let government school your children.” The former would be a viable option that fits very nicely with starting a church without the downside of losing one’s children.
My kids are in public schools and have invited friends to church, shared the gospel and are doing great. I went to public school I shared the gospel and help start a Christian organization on campus. I can’t build walls around them forever, but I can sharpen them, encourage them and teach them while they are in public school and I have influence over them. Just my thoughts.
Dan, I understand those common arguments. I, too worked in the public school system as a teacher. I, too, went to public school. My kids, too, graduated from public school. None of that changes the fact that the public school–by design–is anti-Christian and pro-socialism (or industrialism). That’s just the facts.
Also, I could invite people to church in brothel, but that doesn’t make the brothel anything more than what it is.
It is ironic that the most damaging evidence of late for the public school system comes from a “pro-public school” documentary, “Waiting for Superman.” I’ve spent the last 8 years researching education in all its various facets, so I’m not speaking from a spirit of fear, but a bank of knowledge.
Though, I’m not going to have a fit over Les’ (or anyone else’s) statements for public education, I do want to give my counter-point.
This does not even address the recent bill before the legislature in California mandating the teaching of “gay history” in all state textbooks. As California goes in this regard, so will the textbooks throughout the U.S. This is further proof that the agenda of government education is anything but education.
As I said, I’m not going to jump up and down in a tantrum, but simply state the facts as I know them. I only bring it up because Les brought it up first.
Did you really just compare school to a brothel? Wow.
Frank-
You make a lot of sweeping statements on this blog that I just ignore. This is your most ignortant statement yet. Where do you get the inane idea that sending your kids to public school is akin to telling them to be careful playing in traffic? That is pure stupidity. There is no other word for it.
If you want to homeschool your kids, do so. DO NOT for one second think that those who choose to send our kids to public schools and choose to allow our children to be missionaries to their classmates and families are somehow doing any less than what God has called us to do, any more than someone who homeschools.
Ignorance, generalizations, and outright falsehoods like the ones you put forth are one of the reaons that I struggle so much with being supportive of the homeschool/private school movement in many churches. It’s all fear based, not faith based.
In John 17, Jesus prays that believers will not be taken out of the world but will be protected from the evil one. Children who are Christians have a role in the advancement of the Kingdom and in that prayer. You are foolish to ignore that truth.
I pray daily that the ghettoized, fearful, separatistic menatility that you expressed in your comment would be expunged from the American Church on a daily basis. We are called to love and reach not to flee and abandon.
I will leave you with a quote from Jim Elliott that summarizes my feelings perfectly- “Children are arrows in a quiver, and they are to be trained as missionaries and fired at the devil.” If more Christian parents felt that way, maybe public schools would be different.
Ryan,
If you honestly think that children are allowed to openly discuss their faith in a public school, then you are profoundly wrong. I’ve seen elementary school kids suspended for such behavior. And… it’s only going to get worse. Heck, my principal asked me to put a cover on my Bible or remove it.
Our schools are openly anti-Christian now, and that’s ‘da’ facts. I taught for 10 years and I rarely saw a child who could hold up against the assault they were subjected to by other children. I personally think it is wrong to subject our kids to so much negativity.
Katie-
As a parent of 2 children in public school I could not disagree with you more. My oldest shares her faith on a regular basis in her school with both friends and teachers. One bad experience or administrator does not allow for a sweeping generalization.
Besides, who said being a Christian or sharing faith was going to be easy? You need to grow up and put on your big boy pants. We are not in the game when we pick up our toys and go home because someone told us to stop talking about Jesus.
I think American Christians are spoiled and I weep for the future of the Church in America if we continue to whine about how “hard” it is to share the Gospel in a public school Go to China or Iran or Egypt and share your faith and then come home and thank Jesus that you’re getting a hard time from a principal about putting a cover on your Bible.
We have no reason to withdraw from public schools, we just have a lot of whiny, embittered, alarmist “Christians” who need to wake up and see what’s going on.
As a former public school teacher, I can tell you that we do not ‘proselytize’ our students. We are to teach what is on the curriculum in accordance with state standards of learning, as outlined to us by our administration.
Public school teachers today are being asked to do so much more than teach. Christian parents can help them by sending their children to school with the understanding that they are to be respected by others, and they are to respect others. Christian parents need to communicate with their children’s teachers concerning academic progress (or lack thereof) and any concerns that the parent or the child may have about the school experience. This communication should also be conducted respectfully on the part of the teacher and the parent, so as to keep the focus on what is best for the child.
Religious education is serious business and is the duty of parents and clergy. But public school teachers should never ‘proselytize’ any child in their care . . . that is absolutely not professional.
Ryan,
I don’t doubt that some children share there faith in public school. There will always be exceptions. But, for me (I understand you disagree) I don’t think violating the clear teaching of Scripture in regard to the education of our children is justified by evangelism.
The point then becomes, for me (again I understand you disagree) is does the Scripture say anything about how a child should be taught or what a child should be taught?
Then, I reason, does government forced schooling based intentionally from the start on anti-Christian principles fulfill God’s clear teaching.
The answer to the first question is: yes, the Bible clearly teaches how we should educate our children. In short, education must be completely under the control of the parent. The content must be thoroughly God-centered. I think these two principles are clearly taught in God’s Word.
Does government forced schooling fulfill the above agenda from God’s Word? Clearly it is not a God-centered curriculum–by law. Clearly it is not parent controlled. If you think you as a parent can control your child’s education, just read the law. For example a school official in most districts (I do not know about all) can assist your daughter in getting an abortion without your knowledge. Do you consider that control?
Most parents have no clue where our public education came from. Most people do not know for example that the method for teaching reading for over 30 years was developed initially to teach deaf children, which is why phonics (from the Latin word of sound or voice) was not taught.
I’m simply making an appeal for American parents to do a little bit of research so the discussion is based upon facts, not feelings.
Referring to me as a “whiny, embittered, alarmist . . . who needs to wake up and see what’s going on” when I have: 1) taught in public school; 2) researched and read about government forced education; and 3) given my life to developing a unique approach to provide Christian schooling that is affordable and distinctively Christian while being academically superior . . . well, I think your accusation is a bit harsh and misguided.
Ryan,
I said I was going to exit this discussion, but I can’t ever remember having someone tell me to put on my “big boy pants”. I find that extremely insulting and just plain rude. Been watching Bryan Masche?
I have tried to be generous here even when I don’t agree, but this exceeds anything I have ever seen on a Christian forum. And I never thought I’d see it here at SBC Voices. If putting on my “big boy” pants is your best suggestion, then you are 19-20 years too late. I had those pants on while I was onboard ship in the Persian Gulf defending your right to say something so nasty under the whole idea that you can use your free speech unencumbered by such ideas as civility, to say nothing of speaking that way to a Christian, let alone a Christian woman.
You are entitled to your opinion. You can disagree and that’s perfectly fine with me.
You haven’t spent 10 years working up close with kids, parents, administrators and the many dark forces that are out there.
I’m certainly happy to see that your children are doing well, but I have seen students suspended in an elementary school for such a discussion. Ever watched the discussion between a child who is a Jehovah’s Witness and a Mormon? No, I didn’t think so. I have.
I understand my place here. I am not as well educated as some of you are. I just have a measly M.Ed., and it’s not in theology. But I’m quick to admit when I am wrong, because I don’t have the same knowledge. However, education is something I know a great deal about. It is my Christian duty to warn parents about the unseemly and downright sinful influences their children are facing. I hope for the sake of your children, you’ll not agree with the state when they come for your children… because Ryan, there ARE coming.
This is another thing that is tiresome and what I would consider very extreme for which so many Christians are famous for doing, including Voddie Bauchman. Not only overstating the case as in they are coming for your children, the government is evil, run for your lives for the sake of your children. I’m sorry but I was educated in the Public school system, my children were, 2 in college, one with her Masters degree, the other getting there, and while the system is far from perfect, dangerous is a little over the top.
And please Katie, don’t tell us that you know more than we do, I don’t buy that either.
“”Not only overstating the case as in they are coming for your children,””
Debbie, I don’t know if I would use that particular phrase in describing how the government views children, but it seem pretty clear from the history of the government school movement that the purpose was not education, but socialization.
John Dewey, for example, was a favorite philosopher of socialists, and considered a “father of American education.” So the idea that the government has an agenda that is something more than education and academics does not seem to be far-fetched.
Also, the early movers and shakers (power behind the government school movement) were industrialists, not educators. Have you ever wondered why? I don’t, because the history is clear, they viewed children as commodities to increase the economic power of America (and there bulging fortunes).
Just thought you might want to consider another perspective.
Frank: If you want to see the truth of the history of the public school system look up these two names. Horace Mann, Henry Bernard. I majored in history along with my nursing classes in college.
Did your history degree also teach you that public schooling is the 10th plank of the communist manifesto? You should have mentioned looking up Karl Marx as well.
No it didn’t Jeff because I don’t believe that to be true. I have to bow out of this discussion, it’s going beyond conspiracy theories. I truly pray that you guys see the ridiculousness of this conversation. Sorry Les, I do appreciate the thought you put into your post. I’m sorry it went in this direction.
Unfortunately Debbie, your belief doesn’t dictate facts or truth. Take the time to read the Communist Manifesto. I had to read it for a course in college 14 years ago. I was stunned when I read it.
And before anyone accuses me of calling the US public school system communist, I am just pointing out that Marx claimed public schools were necessary for his goals and nothing more. Go and read it for yourself. I did.
Well said, Ryan! I went to public schools, but that was 1958-1970, and I was not a Christian or churched anyway. My kids are a different story though: they were in public schools 1987-2004, and they are both Christians, and as far as I can tell, the experience did them no harm. My daughter is still active, and my son less so–but it is not because of public schools. The fact is: some fall away from active participation in faith matters, no matter what, be they public-, private-, or home-schooled. And often when they do, it gets blamed on their schooling, at which they are confined for six hours a day, five days a week, 9 or 10 months a year. However, this is, what? 18% of their time during years from grades 1 through 12? Anecdotally, I find more young people out of church due to family or church issues than school issues. My son is a prime example; the churches I served from the time he was in pre-school until his HS graduation were all dysfunctional, and he simply got tired of seeing so-called Christians acting like jerks (and worse) to one another and me. In other words, churches can themselves be a toxic environment, as can homes, even when it is not visible or obvious to “outsiders.” And as for public schools, I will concede that some that are are anti-Christian, but the public schools in the US are not monolithic, not even where I am, in a Maryland suburb or Washington.
John
John, Frank, Chief, et al,
Here’s a link to a great article/analysis of what happens when the church serves the public schools rather than abandoning them. Yes, I realize this will be dismissed by some because it is a PCA movement, but the non-closed minded among us might be intrigued.
http://byfaithonline.com/page/in-the-world/transforming-neighborhoods-by-transforming-public-schools
I’m sure Frank and Katie will find tons wrong with this approach, but they find fault in anything short of building a fort with a moat and machine gun nests to “protect” themselves. 😉
Really Ryan? A moat? Did you hi-jack that comment from our President who found it necessary to insult every person from AZ who actually has to fear the machine guns from the illegals coming across our border? Since I live in AZ… well… never mind.
You are not a teacher. But you are a parent. You said previously that you had two children in public school. Would that be your 7 years old and your 3 years old, or is it the one not quite 1 year old? Not that it matters. Send me a message when you children have been under the indoctrination of the public schools for 10 more years.
I’m not a Presbyterian Hater, especially the PCA but I prefer Voddie Baucham.
Voddie Baucham advocates Christians pulling their children out of government-run schools. He has a response for those who say they can’t afford private education or home-schooling — find a way.
Dr. Voddie Baucham says Christians cannot expect to win the culture war unless they are willing to pull their children out of the public schools — or as he calls them, “the pagan schools” — which allow teaching that is not biblical. According to Baucham, many Christians say they would love to get out of public schools, but cannot afford the alternative. His answer is simple — find a way.
“Do whatever you have to do. Do you know there’s a national network of home-schooling single mothers? They find a way. It’s amazing what people do to find a way,” he says. “We find a way to do everything else in this world — and nothing matters more than what we’re doing to pass on the faith from generation to generation.”
Baucham is also calling on churches to step up and help. “[Churches need] to find a way to assist and equip Christians, to disciple them in this area of education,” Baucham continues, “so that the church can then assist parents who need help finding a way to get their children out of these pagan schools.”
The Christian education advocate has released a new DVD series called, “Whoever Controls the School Controls the World.”
And then there is this: http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2010/1/11_January_Question_of_the_Month.html
My husband has a question for you. As an Elder in your church, is this the way you talk to people who look to you for spiritual guidance? Would you actually say to a woman who sits under your authority that she needed to put her “big boy pants” on?
We shall await your reply.
Katie: If you are going to be in these discussions, I think reality is in order. They are coming to get us? You want us to take this seriously? Government conspiracies are a dime a dozen.
Ryan, I may have missed one of my posts, but I don’t remember advocating any violence or threatening people with machine guns.
That statement makes you sound well entrenched in your perspective. I doubt any evidence that actually has a basis in fact will sway your mind.
By the way . . . you assume that someone who advocates Christian-based education is not involved in public school reform. I guess you know what they say about “assuming” things.
It is not even my goal to persuade you to at least investigate a Biblical approach to educating “your” children. You do with them as you please–their your children.
I understand you have a different perspective on letting the government have a significant role in shaping the minds of your children. You see that as “godly.” I see it as “ungodly.” We obviously differ.
But, that doesn’t mean that I think your ignorance of the facts cannot be remedied. If after you read books like “The Underground History of American Education” and several others, you remain unconvinced of the damage government controlled education causes, then, at least, you are speaking from an informed point of view.
The ad hominem approach you are taking does not dissuade me, and I doubt persuades anybody. It just makes you look uncivil.
And, if you want to continue to insult me, you should at least be fair and go to the back of the line of people who don’t agree with me — it’s a very long line.
Are you guys really bent on spending your life afraid and spreading fear like the Apocalypse? I think that is so wrong and so contrary to scripture. The Bible speaks of how we are to be with our government, and we are to pay taxes, obey the laws and live in peace as much as we are able to.
To drum up things with no cooberating proof, but the tales keep getting bigger and bigger. It isn’t the way we are to live as Christians. I haven’t lived that way for years, although I was raised to fear everything, including the scanners when the supermarket first came out with them. Then it was Social security cards, because they were one step away from the number on the forehead, then it was credit cards for the same reason. Now it’s leaked into working wives vs. stay at home(as with schooling, either way God leads is fine, it is a personal choice).
How is this much different than God has left the churches so we must too, and May 21st is the end of the world type thinking? It’s no different. It’s extremism at it’s finest. Conspiracies abound.
Private Schools are fine. Public schools are fine and unfortunately the intent of this post went south several days ago.
“”How is this much different than God has left the churches so we must too,””
What?
Yes Frank, it is a question that I believe is relevant to the comments the two of you are giving. I would also classify it with the sky is falling.
Ryan, I really don’t mind you disagreeing with me. You call me ignorant, yet I am willing to bet I am better informed in this area than you are in any way you want to measure.
For example, and this just one. I’d bet that if someone asked you: “does homework (a staple in public education methodology) increase learning,” you would answer, “well of course.” Most people who have kids in public school would answer this way, and many in private school.
The fact is: I researched this intensely and did not find one credible peer reviewed research paper that said homework was productive. I did find several that showed homework has a negative impact.
So, while you may disagree with me, I don’t think you can prove your accusation that I am ignorant.
Secondly, you accuse me twice of “lying.” Yet, show me one falsehood I have proposed.
I am not attempting to change your mind or anybody else’s. I am simply offering a different perspective. In my last school (middle school) one student rammed a pencil through the eardrum of a little girl. Another little boy was beaten so bad by classmates that he was put on life support. These instances took place within a month of each other.
If you do not think this is equivalent to “playing in traffic,” you and I most certainly will disagree. However, I was not primarily referring to “physical” danger, but to emotional and spiritual danger.
One more thing before I go to bed: your insults are completely wasted on me because I could not care less whether you think I am ignorant, fearful, ghettoiszed, separatist or whatever. I learned a long time ago not to evaluate my self worth according to the opinions of strangers.
“The fact is: I researched this intensely and did not find one credible peer reviewed research paper that said homework was productive. I did find several that showed homework has a negative impact.”
Frank, I absolutely disagree. Homework, if assignments are appropriate in content and in length, can ‘reinforce’ what is learned in class. Not to mention the training in responsibility.
Teachers on a ‘team’ can actually structure a homework assignment that brings elements together from the different disciplines: for example ‘graphing’ learned in math class can be used to illustrate data from a science experiment. Or a writing assignment can use a prompt that is developed from a topic discussed in a social studies class.
This cross-curriculum type of independent practice actually does help students to ‘pull together’ what they have learned and try it out on their own in a new format.
Believe me, they thrive when encouraged to try this kind of convergent exercise.
There are many ways in which appropriate, well-designed homework assignments can benefit and strengthen learning.
I don’t know what research sources you have used, since you did not give any references, but I think you might want to widen your research sources a bit.
Christianne,
I know that is what the common sense, public mindset says. You can disagree all you want, but it won’t change the facts. I’m suggesting: check the research. It is unmistakably negative in regard to homework.
I have a stack of research including two full length books. One is written by a public school advocate, and the others are journals and essays and various other sources.
Yet, you have never even read one research article, but simply reply out of your “gut” feeling. Just google: does homework work and see for yourself. I would never expect anybody to take my word for anything.
But, when you find out what the research says, ask yourself: if homework doesn’t increase comprehension, why is it a mainstay of the public school approach? I’ll give you one possible answer: the government is not satisfied with controlling your children for 6 o 8 hours so they tack on 2 or 3 more.
Homework not only does not help academically, it is one of the main stressers on family life. The last thing most parents want to do when they come home from working 8 hours with a 2 hour commute is try to figure out little Johnny’s Algebra.
Also, ask yourself this question: why is it the teacher’s text has clear, complete explanations for how to do math problems, but that is not given to students and parents? Does that not seem strange to you? If reason A doesn’t make sense for why the school does something, shouldn’t we look for a reason B?
Finally, I have started two schools now in the last 12 years both with a “no homework” policy. For one, it is a major selling point for parents. But, more importantly, by giving students a complete curriculum (clear explanations of problems) and eliminating homework, 98% of our students in Middle School scored post high school in the Standardized Tests.
Please, don’t take my word for it. A simple “google search” will open your eyes — unless they are glued shut by pride or prejudice.
A simple “google search” will open your eyes — unless they are glued shut by pride or prejudice.
Frank,
They’re not only glued shut, they’re self-glued shut to anything remotely conservative. She has self glued them shut to the gospel, which she hates with a passion that scares the bejesus out of me–I mean, I’m more afraid of her than any muslim extremist. She has also glued them shut to anything she might regard as conservative politically.
“Also, ask yourself this question: why is it the teacher’s text has clear, complete explanations for how to do math problems, but that is not given to students and parents? Does that not seem strange to you?”
Boy is this true. My friends who have kids in public school complain about this all the time. It usually starts around 4th grade when it becomes a huge problem because they are not spending a lot of time on the concepts before they have homework on it. The kids are lost, the parents are lost (because they do not teach math like they used to..even the definitions have changed) and it is a recipe for total frustration. As one friend told me, “Why couldn’t they have at least sent home a list of the definitions.”
I live in one of the largest public school districts in the country. We bus kids across town to attend a school that is not in their community. And yes, the supreme court said they could attend local school. But guess what? They are full and have waiting lists. We spend 70 million per year on just busing. Elementary classrooms have 30 kids but by the end of year have 32. Since “mainstreaming” is now a federal law, you have low functioning kids in the classroom with high functioning and the teacher has to teach to them all. That is not possible with time, discipline and paperwork requirements.
Our pastor took his mildly autistic child out of public school by 3rd grade. He was disgressing. his wife went back to work so they can send him to a special private school for such learners that costs 10,000 year for such students. And he has literally blossomed in that environment. The change is remarkable. He was lost in the public school.
Our grandparents did not have homework but were better educated in the basics. How can that be? They were reading, doing chores and playing instruments after school.
And one last point, in our public school system, they have cut history down so much that students have no clue what has gone before them. It is not even offered at all in their senior year. Perhaps that is not a bad thing when you consider the text books and who might be interpreting history for them. :o(
I make my point by seeing they are only taught the glories of the New Deal and Roosevelt as the savior.
And the only economics they are taught in HS is Keynesian.
My soon to be mother-in-law is a teacher at the high school I graduated from. I’ve been around her when she was having a discussion regarding home schooling vs. sending your kids to public school. She is not anti-homeschooling, but she makes a very valid point that often doesnt get mentioned. What happens to the lost kids in public schools, and the other Christian kids in public schools, if the majority of Christians switch to homeschooling their children?
As a youth pastor, I can see clear distinct advantages to sending your children to public school (I’ll clarify that my community is in the middle of the “Bible belt”). But the homeschool kids in my group are at such a disadvantage socially compared to those in public school. The homeschool kids are so sheltered that they can’t witness to anyone when we go on a trip because they’re so afraid and don’t know how to interact with other people. And there are kids who’ve switched from being homeschooled to going to public school and it’s plain to anyone to see how they’ve actually grown in the walk with the Lord since being around lost people forces them to own their faith.
Justin –
Those kids are not being evangelized in schools. Period. That argument is weak because even with Christian kids there, they are not sharing the Gospel on the whole with the lost kids. It is a rare event when they do.
That said…even if they did, it is a fallacy to assume that the ONLY place those kids can be evangelized and the ONLY place those kids have relationships is IN THE SCHOOL.
BTW, are there kids that are socially awkward and anti-social in the public schools? Should be an obvious “yes”…so that should be proof that public school is not what makes kids “social”. Sadly, what most people mean when they say kids are “sheltered” is that they don’t know the latest trends and pop culture. That is unimportant and shows the subtle worldliness of the church more than a desire for personal growth of these kids.
The answer to the issue is getting them around other people/kids, not necessarily putting them in public schools. Don’t culturally isolate yourself…nor should you culturally indoctrinate yourself. This idea that schools are morally neutral is subtle and deadly.
I agree with your last paragraph, the solution to the “sheltered” homeschooling is getting them around other people. And when I said social I wasn’t referring ot pop culture but to their ability to interact with others in a normal manner.
“”What happens to the lost kids in public schools, and the other Christian kids in public schools, if the majority of Christians switch to homeschooling their children?””
A very simple answer: more souls will be won to Christ by a great revival that will sweep the land. In just a few short years Bible literacy in our churches will increase a hundred fold (or some significant number).
The best thing that could ever happen for our nation is to take back the care and nurture of our children’s hearts and minds. It will not decrease evangelism, but increase it.
“”What happens to the lost kids in public schools, and the other Christian kids in public schools, if the majority of Christians switch to homeschooling their children?””
Would you send your kids to the juvenile detention center to witness to the lost kids? Or would YOU go with them? Think of middle school as a juvenile detention center for pre teens.
Paul said, beware when helping YOU are not tempted. He said this to adults. How much more should we take that seriously for children/teens!
This may or may not be true, but the question should be asked is it true of all Public schools. I do not find it true in Oklahoma. And why is it Public schools and society as a whole are passing and implementing bullying laws when the Christian private schools did not do so first.
I went to a public college just a few years ago that implemented thinking for oneself on every matter. Papers were allowed and accepted to be written with a Christian viewpoint. Writing classes and all classes requiring papers to be written encouraged opposing views and were graded according to content, not the professors personal opinion. I came away with a 3.43 grade average in all my classes and I did not hide in my writing or my conviction as a Christian.
Think of middle school as a juvenile detention center for pre teens.
That’s a little over the top don’t you think Lydia? I think we should table the school discussion and get back to Les’ article as a whole which I thought had some good suggestions.
Les,
That was good stuff. Sounds like what Paul did in several cities.
“And why is it Public schools and society as a whole are passing and implementing bullying laws when the Christian private schools did not do so first. ”
Debbie,
HUH? The private schools did not need a “law”. They just kick them out. That has happened quite a few times at my daughter’s school. Bully’s do not last very long at all. Parents sign a contract about what is expected. And even then, the other parents do not pay all that money for their child to get bullied. The have higher expectations. And such things are dealt with asap.
Makes one wonder why the public schools needed a “law” in the first place.
Debbie,
We have had an anti-bullying law since I began in Christian education 15 years ago–it’s called, The Bible. Our students either discipline their lives according to God’s Word, or they can find somewhere else to study.
Your statement is about as ridiculous as any I’ve ever heard. For one: Christian schools don’t have “laws,” other than the Law of God.
Good job at completely missing the point.
And Frank, your statement is ridiculous because private schools or most private schools do not follow through with discouraging bullying. What’s ridiculous is to condemn those who choose to send their kids to public school, making it sound worse than it is. As one commenter said, the fear seems to be worse than the reality. You have been told of many good experiences with public school. There are some fine public schools. We have wonderful public schools and colleges. I don’t condemn those who send their kids to private school. But this discussion wasn’t about public or private schools which get as many comments as the Halloween thread, the divorce thread, the Calvinism vs. Non-Calvinism threads. It’s just your opinion, it doesn’t matter which you choose for your child. It’s what you teach them at home that matters.
Parents will not be judged by God on whether they sent them to private or public school. Either choice is good, either choice is fine. I’m tired of this silly debate. And it is silly. Nonsense.
“And Frank, your statement is ridiculous because private schools or most private schools do not follow through with discouraging bullying”
Debbie, Do you honestly think parents are willing to scrape and sacrifice to send their kids to private school and then put up with bullying? They PAY to have their kids bullied?
This makes sense to you?
I will admit, I have a hard time understanding your comments and where you are coming from most of the time. You make declarative statements that do not seem to be thought through.
I do NOT think sending a child to public school is a sin. But I do know for a fact, the education is below par. Test scores across the board, prove it. I do not find that silly at all.
Yes Lydia, believe it or not Private schools have their share of problems too. I went to a private school for 4 years. There was bullying, and girls getting pregnant having to leave school, just as in public school. They are not perfect. The students who leave private school are not perfect either.
I am not saying that private schools are not good, but I am also saying that public is not a bad choice either. Like working moms(another comment subject grabber for the extreme at heart) it’s a choice. Period. We need to leave those who choose public school alone. Good grief, the moral of my comments are that you all are the extreme. And I’m so tired of the tall stories and the extreme Christians.
This thread is not a private school vs. public school thread yet it has been turned into one. That by the extremist who jump hard on one small point Les made. The discussion of church planting without outside funding got buried. A discussion that I believe is important. Church planting is what we do as Southern Baptists yet that discussion got blindsided by what I would consider extremists against the Public School system.
I agree with Frank. That is like sending your little ones to be Ambassadors to Lybia. I think all parents should spend some time in public schools to see what they are really like. But then, they generally do not want parents there during school time.
Watch “Waiting for Superman” if you have no clue what goes on in public education around the country. I found it on Redbox.
And I say this as one who has worked as a consultant in public education projects over the last 4 years. I had not been inside of a public school since I graduated HS. I was STUNNED. From elementary to high school, very little teaching or learning is occuring.
My wife and I are both in the school system. Seems to me there is more fear than things to fear. Maybe that’s just in Iowa. It’s not like there are no Christian teachers and administrators. Has anyone ever thought that maybe the public school are they way they are because all the Christian kids are being pulled out to be home schooled? Just a thought. Start a Good News Club at a public school. We did.
It is incredibly short-sighted to think that public schools are the way they are because people pulled their kids out. I am willing to venture that you don’t REALLY believe that either.
There are many ways to be involved and be around non-Christians than putting them in public school. The idea that they need to “learn how to be around lost people” is, again, short-sighted. They are around lost people all the time.
Maybe parents should try and open their eyes to the lost people with an eye toward evangelism rather than simply handing their kids over to said lost people to train them on how to think, believe, and act.
Just a thought.
I agree with the other points, but that one was not well thought out and/or completely naive.
I also have an M.Ed, I have 3 kids in Public education, some great Christian teachers I know of, and we are not only aware of what is going on in our schools, but are there often. Maybe it’s just in Iowa where I live (oh, and in Arizona where I know many, many Christian school teachers), but I don’t think it’s that bad? Do you recommend all Christians quit teaching school, or it’s ok for a Christian to be a school teacher, as long as we don’t send our kids there? I have heard all the propaganda from the Christians, but I haven’t seen much to justify it. My kids aren’t learning about “alternative lifestyles”, my 9 year old isn’t bringing home condoms, and I met the principle, and she doesn’t have horns or a tale.
I know many wonderful public school teachers and quite a few who are believers. They are stuck in a bad system and do the best they can.
I have never met a parent yet that thought “their” public school was bad in any way.
There are a ton of reasons why they are bad for children. Too many to go into here. But let me put it this way, the teachers are spending most of their time doing paperwork for the system and dealing with discipline problems. Much of the work students do is actually busy work.
If you have any way to do it, keep your children out of public middle school. It is like “Lord of the Flies”.
Here is an interesting note. US schools score very low globally in math. YET, we score highest in student self confidence that they are smart.
We are churning out students who are ignorant but think they are smart.
I agree Dan.
I read this as a “how to” without outside funding.
It’s not a “must” or the “only way” type of thing.
Some public school situations are not bad at all. Our kids attended a great public school in our city. After elementary, they went to a private prep school here in town. The education was good, good enough so they could score well enough on the test to get into private school. And the school was full of really good families with good kids.
There are other situations where that would not be a good option.
I have another question, though.
If we are telling people they should not put their kids in public schools, how will we reach the people who populate the public schools? Are we basically calling them to come to Christ and then immediately get out of the public schools, too?
Certainly you don’t believe that the only thing people do in their life is go to school, right?
They live in neighborhoods. They have jobs. They are involved in sports. They go to the store.
I don’t have to let my kids be taught by non-believers who are teaching them things opposed to the gospel for 35-40 hours a week in order to reach families and kids who attend public schools.
More than that, I am not convinced that elementary age kids are called to be missionaries.
“”If we are telling people they should not put their kids in public schools, how will we reach the people who populate the public schools””
Louis, I don’t know if this is meant to be a rhetorical question or not. But, very little evangelism takes place in public schools. Granted, I only taught in about six or seven public schools (K-12), but I did not see much evangelism taking place. I did have the opportunity to share my testimony in a very limited way, but it was not effective.
What statistics do show without any reasonable challenge is that public school has a greater negative affect on Christian students than Christian students have on the public school.
The analogy above of sending our children to Libya as missionaries I think is one way of looking at my point of view. I certainly respect your right to hold a different point of view.
I will guarantee you that any question raised has been raised and answered many many times. I have a shelf full of books on education, including several unpublished government reports, so I’m not sharing my opinions.
However, I’ll say again, Les put that point as one of only six so I’m thinking he meant it to be a significant part of his strategy. To now see people complain that anybody even noticed, seems a bit strange to me.
Also, the public school debate has been one of the hottest issues at the national level of our Convention in the last decade, so it is certainly not a trivial issue.
Great point, Frank. He clearly was making public school an integral part of his strategy…it wasn’t an “aside” he made it 1 of 6 main points.
You addressed some things here that I think are pretty critical.
“Les put that point as one of only six so I’m thinking he meant it to be a significant part of his strategy. To now see people complain that anybody even noticed, seems a bit strange to me.”
Great point. I think the complaints might be a little defensive. It’s one thing to identify some benefits to Christian students being in public schools. It’s altogether different to suggest that it’s better than home or private schools.
“What statistics do show without any reasonable challenge is that public school has a greater negative affect on Christian students than Christian students have on the public school.”
I think parents who have children in public schools will have an extremely difficult time accepting that. Unfortunately, the statistics aren’t completely necessary. The evidence is sometimes very obvious.
“…very little evangelism takes place in public schools.”
I don’t even know where to begin to comment on that statement. It’s such a painful truth. Sure, all of us have anecdotes of young evangelists, but they’re not the norm.
I think that if students were truly missional, God would be using them to overcome the affects of the legal restrictions in the schools. It’s unfortunate that the place they go to learn is supposed to be the place they go to teach.
Louis,
You read this correctly.
Les
Les,
Did you include point #2 just to get a response? There is really no other reason to include that point. There are many substitute ways to “be around lost people”. Why not simply encourage people to find ways to minister and be around lost people? That would serve the point and not be intentionally provocative for no good reason.
Jason,
My purpose of including point 2 is because it is a practical way to for the church planter to fund himself. I had no other ulterior motives in mind.
What surprises me is the reaction to such a suggestion. Is placing children in public school akin to heresy?
Les
Thanks for the post Dave. I certainly got more out of it than the raging debate about how we as Christians should abandon the Secular Education System.
Dan, nobody was raging. I certainly went out of my way to be respectful and I am restraining myself against replying in kind to your remark.
I didn’t say that people were raging, I said the debate was raging. Not sure why you want to start being respectful now Frank.
I don’t think that Les meant to say this was the only way to do things folks. If you have a conviction about homeschool or Christian school, follow it. But this is a way to make it happen.
Sorry, Dave
I don’t see it as one option among many. I understand you think it is no big deal. That is your opinion.
Hey Dave, you should have listed the Home School Movement as one of the things “splintering” our Convention 🙂
Passions run high on the issue, don’t they?
I think it’s really funny that they have facts and figures, like my kids will suddenly become heathens. I am reading things like “evangelism rarely takes place in public schools”. I did it. Kaylee (my daughter) is doing it. I prayed every morning with a math teacher and a guidance counselor. I am passionate about helping students start Christian organizations on campus. Facts, figures, tests, results and angry people aside, public school doesn’t look that evil. Of course, maybe yours are.
And many others have done it Dan. It seems it’s anything to make a point, true or not.
OFF TOPIC . . . (sorry)
sharing something ‘special’
“It was Disability Awareness Day and the folks at Fenway did a lot of great things for kids with challenges..
here is one (with autism) who sang and when he got nervous, the Fenway Faithful helped him out’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhcZRFcjbhw
God Bless the ‘Fenway Faithful’ 🙂
Dave:
Exactly.
I was part of a church plant in 1992. We had 5 couples. We could barley pay the pastor. We got a small salary supplement for 2 years that decreased annually.
Our pastor had his kids in public school.
The church has survived. Just celebrated 18 years.
Louis,
Good for you. Until the mid-1990’s, this was the normal way to start a new church. Thousands of new churches began this way and continue to do well today.
Les
Re: the actual topic.
Maybe we should discuss the wisdom of starting a church that has no financial support from any other church or denomination. It has been my experience that many pastors start a church because they can’t find a job at a church or are disillusioned with things in general and could not find support from anyone. That is not always the case, but it does seem to be the general rule.
A wise church planting strategy would be for churches to plant churches…not random individuals starting churches. Thoughts?
I agree. Getting to third or fourth generation from the “mother church” is hard but ultimately worth it.
Jason, you are not really addressing the “actual” topic.
Les’ post is one on methodology not motivation. You’re assessment of the “general rule” of why church planters start churches is unfair and unsupported by evidence.
Further, the methodology Les suggests does not assume lone ranger planting and, even if it did, is there any biblical basis for the oft repeated philosophy that only churches should plant churches? Does anyone really think that the churches at Ephesus and Corinth were “sponsored” by the Antioch church in any way similar to our practice today?
My contention: Churches don’t plant churches, church planting missionaries do. Churches send and support missionaries.
Blessings,
Todd
Todd,
Exactly. I hope and pray that those who start churches are led by God to do so, not because they don’t want to pastor established churches.
Les
Is the actual topic church planting and not public school? I say “yes”, which is why it is an attempt to get back to the original topic. Since the discussion was more around public school than church planting, my comment was meant to try and drive discussion back to some of those issues.
Did I address an underlying issue of church planting and not the methodology posted? Yes, I did. But would you not agree that discussing the motivating factors of why someone would want to “plant a church with little or no outside funding” is important to a post about “how to plant a church with little or no outside funding”.
So, I reject your statement that my post was not about the topic.
As to my statement about lone-ranger church planters…I started off by saying “it has been my experience” that is true. It has. Is that always the case. No. Does that mean they will be unsuccessful? No. Does it mean they should NOT plant a church? Not necessarily.
I would love to see the evidence that disputes my claim. Seriously. I don’t think such a study exists or could even be compiled to show stats on this issue, so your reference to said evidence seems a little spurious.
As for your final point about biblical evidence for churches planting churches…I think the evidence suggests 2 things from the New Testament. One, that church planters were apostles or those directly commissioned by apostles to go to specific places and start churches because those apostles were busy elsewhere; and two, that the people that left to plant didn’t get the idea themselves but were sent out of a place where they were trained and taught and that those places/people that sent them supported them financially.
On the biblical analysis, I think we are in agreement — just using different language. I have no objection to your description, I just wouldn’t call it “churches planting churches”, that’s all. 🙂
As for your initial comment — addressing the issue at hand would mean evaluating the methodology at face value. Instead, you called into question the legitimacy of the model and those who would advocate its use by taking your negative experience and limited frame of reference and extrapolating it into a “general rule.”
My main issue is that I believe that Tent-making missionaries ought to be celebrated not treated as suspect or characterized by someone’s unsubstantiated assumptions.
Fair enough.
I, too, think we are probably in agreement on this issue.
It wasn’t my intent to malign said missionaries. I only bring up my personal experience with guys who were mistreated at churches and decided to plant a church for wrong reasons. I have known a lot of guys who did just that, though when talking to people they will talk a good game of “I have a heart for the people of city X” or “God called me to do this”.
As for the language of “churches planting churches” I would say that term describes what that would like now, not as descriptive of Acts. Since the Apostles are gone, the only way to emulate the model seen in Acts would be for churches to send missionaries to plant other churches.
Yes, I asked about the legitimacy of the model because that is an important point. It is a fair issue. If the model is illegitimate than the methodology is moot. I do NOT think the model is illegitimate, but I wanted it to be discussed, not assumed. That said, I think there are better models for planting.
Thanks for the clarification. 🙂
For what it’s worth, I’ve seen my share of “wrong reason” church plants too, but most Church Planters I know plant out of a passion for evangelism and the need for gospel churches.
God’s blessings to you as you serve Him!
— Todd
Good post. As far as the comments go concerning public schools, you would be hard pressed to find anywhere in society that promotes the Christian worldview or values. The only way to keep the non Christian influence from bombarding your children is to create a monastery like compound. Jesus did not pray that the Father would take us out of the world but that He would protect us from the evil one.
John,
Nobody mentioned anything about a monastery. And, the Scripture verse you refer to is one in which Jesus is speaking of grown disciples, not children.
I would say using your reference, you would be hard pressed to find any institution in society more committed to the secularization (or worse) of our youth than the government run forced schooling.
And, public school comprised one-sixth of Les’ strategy, so I don’t think it is unreasonable to respond to that issue.
If Les would like to retract that point, then the discussion of public schooling would not be applicable.
I’m thinking that had he said, and when you outgrow the home find a bar to meet in on Sunday mornings because they are not usually opened early on Sundays, then I think someone would likely say: “is that such a good idea.” Then we could debate that.
Personally, I pointed out that I thought the rest of his post was very good and provided helpful tips on one way of getting a church started.
I think part of the problem is that people are assuming that those people seeking to educate their children in home are trying to take their children out of the world completely. I think that is a huge assumption.
The driving motivation isn’t cultural isolation, it is the avoidance of secular indoctrination through education.
BTW, if you are going to use Jesus’ example maybe you should evaluate the way that he was educated or the way that Jews viewed education. Do you think they were sending their kids to the Roman schools?
I think you’ve made a terrific point here.
Jason,
In your case and many others I’m sure the motivation isn’t cultural isolation, but in more cases than not it’s the motivation for homeschooling families where I live. Even if the parents would disagree with that assessment it’s what happens. Homeschooled kids where I live are culturally isolated and usually end up going wild when confronted with the real world.
Justin,
The whole idea that all or even most home school kids are sheltered from the real world is a tired stereotype. I have been a youth pastor for 15 years and am now a pastor and I have seen plenty of kids from both sides of the equation that don’t fit such a simple view.
And the idea that all kids in public school being traumatized and corrupted is a stereotype? Why is one ok and the other isn’t?
Dan,
Where did I say that the other wasn’t? I said I have seen plenty of examples from both sides and that was it.
Justin, that may be the case where you live, I’ll have to take your word for it.
Nationally over a period of many decades now, the evidence is very clear: homeschoolers excel in life. Many colleges actively seek them out because they excel. Homeschoolers score 2 to 3 times higher on standardized test to get into college.
Our private school has a home school division and these kids and young people are excellent, well-adjusted citizens.
As I said, your experience is what it is and I won’t dispute that, but the evidence greatly points to your sample as being outside the norm.
Frank,
I don’t know if you saw this or not, but there is one group that wants nothing to do with home schoolers apparently and that is the US military. They assign kids who don’t come from traditional brick and mortar schools as “Tier 2” and will only allow the force to be comprised of 10% from that category. Just saw the news last week. Their reasoning is interesting based on the articles I have read, but it basically boils down to a lack of “conditioning” or regimentation if you will in attitude and behavior in the “tier 2” group.
Jeff (re:military)
Or maybe it is because the military is run by DC bureaucrats who have an agenda in promoting government-run education. The government’s opposition to home-education is well-documented – so I see no shock in any decision like that.
That may be true.
Of course the statistical studies show that kids who are educated at home stay in the faith at a MUCH higher rate than those who do not. See “Soul Searching”. I also believe Lifeway Research has done studies on this as well.
But there is a legit possibility that kids will leave home after home school and be unprepared for the world. I would be willing to bet that if those same kids went to public school, the same problems would have arisen, only earlier. But just because some kids “go wild” does not mean that you throw them into a school and hope for the best.
If a family has no other option but public school, I understand. But those families need to work extra hard in family discipleship to teach their kids and undo the things they are taught (formally and informally) at public school. That usually does not happen.
There is a reason we are losing between 70-88% of our “churched kids” by the end of their freshman year of college. I don’t think that reason is home school.
The idea of godly home education is not just “doing schoolwork at home”…it is about rigorous discipleship that includes “schoolwork”. Parents that fail to disciple their kids, regardless of the location they receive schooling, will see their kids “go wild” more often than not. That said, parents must see their job of discipleship includes their education or they severely hurt themselves and limit their influence.
I agree the reason we lose kids isn’t home school. Mark Hall of Casting Crowns wrote a book called “Your Own Jesus”. i think the problem with kids leaving is that they never develop a faith of their own and just go to church because it’s what’s expected of them or their parents take them.
And Jeff & Frank I understand that my sample is small, just sharing my view from what I’ve seen. I think there definitely is a time and place for homeschooling, and a right and wrong way to do it. I guess my experience has just been with more families that have done it wrong than with those that got it right.
I think point two fails on all counts. There are plenty of ways to get involved in the community without having to put your kids in public schools or requiring your wife to work outside the home either. I know because we do neither of those things and we still have found plenty of opportunities to meet lots of lost people and spend time with them.
The rest of the strategy is very sensible, but point two ends up creating a huge distraction over something that isn’t integral in my opinion. I can’t figure out why Les included it in the first place really.
“”something that isn’t integral””
Jeff, that’s a huge point (beyond the merits of homeschooling or private schooling).
I apparently didn’t write what I was thinking very well. What I was trying to say is that I don’t understand why he included it at all and should have just been left out. I don’t think how you school your kids has any effect on the success or failure of your church planting and I frankly don’t see why he even mentioned it.
I am not trying to say that he didn’t make it integral in his post, merely trying to assert that he shouldn’t have done so.
And since it may also be unclear from my previous comment. My wife stays at home and doesn’t work and we home school all three of our kids and plan to do so through the entire course of grades for each of them.
I imagine he mentioned it because it is the free option. It is difficult to plant a church without significant financial support if your kids are in private school or your wife is staying home to home school them. Trust me on this, I am planting a church with little funding because God has not impressed upon me the need to beg for money.
Public schools will not destroy your children if they are trained up in the way they should go.
Kirby,
You wrote, “I am planting a church with little funding because God has not impressed upon me the need to beg for money.”
Amen, brother! My church plant is using a portion of our giving to assist other new church plants who receive little or no funding. Email me at lespuryear AT hotmail.com and tell me a bit about your new church.
Blessings!
Les
Jeff,
Point two is vital if both parents work in a secular job. That’s why I included it. It’s hard to homeschool your kids when both parents work. It’s not impossible, but it’s gott abe hard. 🙂
Les
Sorry, I meant to say “gotta be”.
Les
I just thought you were speaking German, Les.
Les,
The premise that both parents have to work is the part that I absolutely disagree with. As I said, my wife hasn’t worked outside the home (I qualify that statement because she works a ton in the home) at a secular job or otherwise for overs 9 years now and we have survived financially on a lot less than most people make. I just believe that God is good for His Word and will take care of the necessities and I haven’t been let down yet.
If people feel like they should put their kids in public school, then while I think it is a bad decision, it is their decision and I am not going to tell them what to do. Let them be firmly convinced in their own mind about that.
I am all about the ability to plant churches on low budget/no outside funds. I think God can provide all our needs, particularly when He calls us to do something.
Question to Jeff and others advocating homeschooling: does it not presuppose first that there is one stay-at-home parent, and second that the stay-at-home parent has the education and more importantly the temperment and gifts/talents to be a teacher? If so: not everyone does!
I have temperment and the gifts to teach, and almost became a teacher myself. However, I worked at secular employment, then went to seminary, then pastored full-time churches, so I never had the luxury of being stay-at-home. And although my wife was stay-at-home, at least until our son was in high school and our daughter in middle school, she simply does not have the temperment, gifts, or talents to teach. In situations where the presuppositions of being financially able to have a stay-at-home parent and that parent being able to effectively teach are not met, what alternative is there to public school, other than an often cost-prohibitive private school (where there are often various problems themselves)?
John
John,
I am not saying that everyone has to home school (see above) but I will take a crack at the question. Home schooling is not limited by the abilities of the parents at all. We use a computer based curriculum that allows the kids to learn at their own pace, and there are plenty of other ways to do it as well. It is a matter of priorities and mindset. In my experience, people generally find a way to do those things that they really want to do. For example, if parents decide to send kids to a private school, they come up with amazing ways to find the money.
All right Jeff, that is well said. If you are able and willing to do computer-based learning, I suppose that will work in those households where the stay-at-home parent lacks the wherewithal to teach. Frankly, I have some concerns about computer-based teaching; for the way I learn, and many others, there is no substitute for eyeball-to-eyeball, personal contact and/or peer learning. But again, there are going to be drawbacks to any form of education; sometimes it comes down to learning or teaching style, and sometimes it comes down to selecting the lessor of two “evils.”
You state, “In my experience, people generally find a way to do those things that they really want to do. For example, if parents decide to send kids to a private school, they come up with amazing ways to find the money.” I generally agree with your major premise–we see that all too often in church, where someone cannot “afford” to tithe, but they can afford to make payments on a $20,000 boat they put in the water maybe half a dozen times a year. But relative to the minor premise, I think back to my first pastorate, 1986-1990. They insisted they were a full time church, and paid me $18,000 a year–including salary, housing expenses, insurance, and every pen and paper clip I used, everything except $33 a month to the old SBC Annuity Board. It was in a depressed county where there were few jobs available and the population had decreased from 34,000 to 16,000 over the previous 30 years. The county’s only private “Christian” school had been created in the 1960s as an alternative to integrated public schools. Even if that had appealed to my wife and I, there is no way on my salary alone (and no job was available to her) we could have afforded $10,000 a year per child (we had two) for private school, no matter how creative we might have gotten. While there are middle class earners for whom your conclusion no doubt apply, it does not work at all for those in the lower end of the wage scale. In fact, I dare say that is a presupposition for the whole argument in favor of private schools, and somewhat even for homeschooling. Both are middle class, perhaps upper middle class and above, folks. What about those financially below?
John
John,
Just as a comparison for the sake of understanding, based on the figures you provided, I currently make less than you did in your situation in 86-90(and knowing how inflation has been in the last 20 years I imagine it works out to less than is apparent from just the numbers). My situation is similar. The church covers all utilities, provides a parsonage and pays me a salary plus but it still adds up to less than $18K/year (My gross income on last years taxes was under $16K but I didn’t take the time to look up the exact number). By federal definitions and state definitions, we live below the poverty line for a family of 5 if I remember correctly.
We currently home school and our approximate costs have been around $350/per student for software per year(we had to buy two different grades the first two years). We are planning to reuse the software as we go, so after the initial costs when we switched to this method it is now down to $350 per year. The computers that we use have either been given to us or purchased as “used” at greatly reduced price (less than $150). The software also includes projects, science experiments and so on that involve learning away from the PC and make use of the local library and internet and such. You are right about learning styles, but the thing about home schooling is that it allows us to adapt to our kid’s individual needs much better anyway. My oldest child is highly intelligent and moves very quickly through his work most of the time with little oversight or help. My next oldest has a learning disability and needs more help and accommodation, but he is able to use the exact same software and is doing well also. My youngest isn’t yet old enough to start on the computerized curriculum (it starts at 3rd grade) and we do more traditional work with her using materials we used with the boys as well when they were younger.
I say all of that to say that the “financially below” are not limited by anything more than desire or imagination when it comes to educating our kids. It is a matter of being passionate enough to do the legwork that is required for us to make it work. It is a decision we made and it is one that we have committed to seeing through. Does that help answer your question?
“”Even if that had appealed to my wife and I, there is no way on my salary alone (and no job was available to her) we could have afforded $10,000 a year per child (we had two) for private school, no matter how creative we might have gotten””
John, I understand your concerns, but it does not have to be that way. Our church has a private school (32 years). We are in one of the richest towns in the US. One of the wealthiest Christian schools in the US is just down the street: $24000 per year per child.
Our school provides generous scholarships through the sacrificial giving of our church. In 32 years no child that has applied has been turned away because of finances.
We have a commitment to providing an academically superior Christian education to any child that wants one and is willing to live good and work hard.
If more churches would provide this type of ministry to children, we’d turn America around in very short order.
Frank,
That is an excellent point as well and it has been my experience that a lot of private Christian schools have bent over backwards to try and help people with costs(through scholarships and such) rather than turn them away.
Jeff,
I can’t argue with you there. I’ll give you a big “AMEN.”
Les
Jeff & Frank, my financial concerns were directed toward children attending private schools, not homeschooling. As I said, Jeff answered that objection well. My remaining objection is the contention that people can “always” or even “usually” overcome financial hurtles to send their kids to private schools if they are just creative enough. Where we were at 1986-90 did not offer scholarships. It was cash on the barrelhead, up front. Neither us nor others below the povertyline (yes, Jeff, we were too; in fact, our kids qualified for free lunches at school–which when I mentioned it to a deacon, he got mad and said he’d better not ever hear of our kids accepting it, but they didn’t even consider raising the salary) had a snowball’s chance in August of sending our kids there. If private schools where you are have a different philosophy, more power to them; but these did not. Many private schools were created with a separation of “classes” intended. Some moved past it, but I suggest others have not, which is where my concern lies. On the whole however, I do not have a problem with public schools. You generally find what you are looking for: look for education happening in a public school, and you find it; look for an anti-Christian slant, and you will find it.
John
Oh JEFF, your dear wife DOES work, God bless her. Just not outside the home.
🙂
Isn’t that exactly what I said? 🙂
“Also, your children need to learn how to be around lost people.”
Whether you go to private school or public school – you’re going to be around alot of people who behave like their LOST. The kids at the private schools (Christian academies) I grew up around in south Georgia had a reputation for partying hard and hooking up. Private vs. Public – no real difference in my experience. I just observed that the private school kids were often more guilty of hypocrisy.
Just to add, many of my teachers growing up in the public school system were active members of their respective churches and many taught Sunday School. They weren’t nonbelievers as Jason characterizes public school teachers.
The vast majority of school teachers are not believers. That should be pretty widely accepted. There may be “many” but they are not the majority. True?
Of the believers, they are not allowed to teach Christian values in their classes.
I’m not sure why you are even disputing that point. Public schools are not places that promote Christian values THROUGH THE GOSPEL. Period. The idea that public school is somehow “amoral” is crazy. Values are being taught, but they are not biblical values.
“”Just to add, many of my teachers growing up in the public school system were active members of their respective churches and many taught Sunday School””
First, your anecdote about carnal private Christian schools is just an anecdote and does not relieve us of our responsibilities in regard to educating our children. There’s good schools and bad schools just like there are better disciples and not so good ones.
Second, if we are comparing histories, I can tell you after sitting in several teachers’ lounges that the majority of teachers do not teach Sunday School on the side.
Christianity, along with being a Republican (I’m the former not the latter) was routinely maligned on a daily basis. Jason’s characterization seems closer to reality than BDW’s based upon my research and experience.
There are pockets throughout the US that are exceptions to the rule. They are few and far between, but they do exist.
PS — One thing BDW’s post points out is something many people do not realize. Most traditional Christian private schools use the government model, including at times the same textbooks.
As BDW correctly points out in my opinion, those schools are little to no improvement over public schools.
Jason: “The vast majority of school teachers are not believers. That should be pretty widely accepted.”
I guess that depends on where you’re from. I grew up in south Georgia. The majority of my teachers were believers. As far as values, what they taught, I and others recognized as Christian values. They certainly weren’t promoting values incompatible with a Christian lifestyle.
Frank L: “First, your anecdote about carnal private Christian schools is just an anecdote and does not relieve us of our responsibilities in regard to educating our children.”
And all anyone – including yourself – has to offer is anecdotes. There’s good schools and bad schools. I agree with that. I’m sure you also agree that we’re all sinners living in a sinful world. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that private school kids are drinking, smoking and having sex just like public school kids.
Frank L: “Jason’s characterization seems closer to reality than BDW’s based upon my research and experience.”
Again, you have your anecdotes, I have mine. Would you agree that perhaps people enjoy different experiences with public school education depending on where they live? I’m going to guess that my experience in public school in the rural heart of the Bible Belt might be a little different than someone elsewhere in say California or a more pluralistic large city.
You offered your example of Republicans being maligned. My yearbook quote was “Enjoying Georgia? Thank a Democrat” because there were so few Democrats in my school. Different experiences obviously.
I do find this public school debate interesting. I think it’s safe to say that those who are anti-public school and anti- “traditional Christian private schools” – hold views that are at odds with the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists who do send their kids to public schools as well as those who send their kids to the traditional Christian private academies that exist throughout the South.
I’m gonna guess too that the majority of Southern Baptist female pewsitters do hold jobs outside the home. And only a small minority of Southern Baptist women choose to homeschool their kids. Yet, I suspect the number of Southern Baptist clergy who homeschool, the number of Southern Baptist pastor’s wives who don’t work, etc. is much higher than that of the laity.
So when Southern Baptist leaders call for an exodus from the public school system, that’s not going to “connect” with the average Southern Baptist in the rural Bible Belt. Well over half of the families in the Southern Baptist church I grew up in had someone employed at a public school as a teacher or coach.
I believe that even teachers who are believers are highly limited in what they are allowed to say and do – they are given curriculum, they are given books, they are given rules, they must do certain things. Even in the South. Sure, there are some school districts better than others, but all are working under certain constraints. As a teacher what it’s like to be a Christian in that environment. It’s tough. I feel for the situation they are in, tough deal for them.
I would also offer up the fact that it isn’t simply the teachers, but also the fellow students and the environment as a whole that impacts and teaches kids. It is naive to throw a kid into the lion’s den and hope he survives like Daniel. Do kids make it out alive? of course they do. I did. But to think we were not impacted by what we were taught is simply ignorant. We were. Greatly! Moreover, we all know kids we went to church with that went to school with us and did not survive…those numbers dwarf the survival rate.
As for calling for an exodus…I need to think about that for a bit.
Frank, we use textbooks, but not from the likes of Houghton-Mifflin, Harcourt, and other secular publishes. I have seen that they are guilty of sending all the wrong messages to kids. The very first story in Houghton Mifflins’s Basal Reader is called “Cliffhanger”. It’s the story of a little boy and his dog. What could be wrong with that? Plentry! A violent thunder storm comes upon them and the child’s father tells him to go in the house and stay there. A thing any prudent parent would do. OH…. but not this little boy, his dog is up on cliff and can’t get down, so the child disobeys his father and saves the day and his dog. Most kids see this little boy as a hero. What’s the hidden message?
We do have one exception to our policy when it comes to math. We use Saxon math and in my opinion, it can’t be beat.
Secular textbooks are loaded with bias and I won’t use them. Since I’m the boss, I get to make the rules. I do consult with my teachers, and my Pastor, but so far, so good. I might add the congregation is very willing to support us so that the expense is minimized. It takes a servants heart to make sure that our children get the best educational materials. My Pastor has a vision of raising up Godly children. It makes all the difference.
We have turned away students, but not for the lack of finances. I know that teachers can’t adequately teach students in overpopulated classrooms. I won’t budge on that. When we get enough requests at a certain grade level, then we hire a new teacher. We have found that it is better to have a solid vision in the beginning instead of putting out fires.
I have not regretted leaving the public schools. God was at work in my life, and for once, I listened.
God Bless
Chief, we have designed a program that is not dependent upon enough kids for a class. Because our approach abandons not only the public school message, but the public school model (a sage on the stage) we can have a hundred third graders or one third grader. We can, and do, fluctuate from year to year.
Not only that, we begin using iPads in our Pre-K curriculum and throughout. Our Pre-K’ers, with just minimal instruction are teaching themselves to read.
Two years ago we took a struggling student in public school and he will graduate next month, a year ahead. He also was a straight A student in Latin, and all his standardized test scores were post high school.
I say that because many people do not really know what can be done if you scrap all the pre-conditioning and build a program from what God’s Word teaches.
Also, because of our unique modular approach our students have almost one-on-one access to qualified teachers. One of our teachers is a doctor who gave up his practice to come work for us.
So, I just hope the positive result from this thread will be two-fold: 1) people will start churches trusting God to provide; and 2) parents will provide a godly education trusting God to provide.
I can’t believe what I’m reading. Send your kids to public schools?
I wholeheartedly agree with Frank. He hasn’t said anything that isn’t true.
After I finished up my Naval Service, I got my graduate degree and then taught 3rd grade for 10 years. I loved my job. It was very rewarding. I’d not change a thing except for the constant push to make teachers complicit in teaching that sin is just another lifestyle. They wanted us to read Trade Books all about why I have two mommies. I did not play that game. But they kept on pushing. One day I heard that a social worker would come to our school and present the ‘naturalness’ (is that a word) of homosexuality. It turns out that some parents had heard about it as well. Since I taught in a small rural community, the parents talked to each other and showed up at school. Just about 70 of them. They demanded to look at the AZ state performance objectives. I was so relieved because I knew that there was no such objective. My Principal called the district office, and voila, the Superintendent of Schools had a sudden change of mind in regard to state sponsored curriculum.
If this had happened in Massachusetts, the parents would have been evicted from the school campus. In the so-called cradle of liberty they have introduced GBTS curriculum as early as Kindergarten. Some parents used the courts to let them opt-out if they thought the subject matter was not suitable. They lost. The judge ruled essentially that what parents want isn’t as important ‘diversity’. Anybody want to put up with state telling you that your views on how to raise your children don’t matter? The schools have no business doing that, and to strip parents of their educational rights is just reprehensible.
NO, this is not an exception. Exactly what state first legalized Gay marriage? And what happened next. Which state was the first to mandate buying health insurance? What happened next?
Not all public schools are bad. In fact I know of many, many public schools who offer an excellent education. But keep in mind that most teachers and school administrators are very liberal. Ever read the NEA website? Can anyone tell me why the NEA should invite the likes of Dr. George Tiller to speak to the teachers at a NEA conference? What does he bring to the table except for disdain of human life? How about teachers showing up at the Madison, Wisconsin state capitol and then calling in sick? What great role models they are. What message are these teachers sending to their students? We should shelter our children from the winds of depravity for as long as we possibly can. You cannot un-ring the bell.
If you are fortunate enough to have your children in a good public school, then you are very fortunate. I personally think it’s unthinkable to deprive a child of the best possible education. If you can’t afford it then at least read everything about the school, attend school board meetings, etc.
Frank, I agree that sending your children to public school is akin to changing seats on the titanic.
Several years ago, Ed Stetzer did an analysis of SBC church plants. In the research, not surprisingly, full time planters grew larger churches than part time ones. However, he also noted “One of the most significant factors was the employment of the spouse.” When the spouse was employed, churches were significantly smaller than when the spouse did not. While no causal relationship was established, it is a statistic worth consideration.
http://www.newchurches.com/mediafiles/summary-of-the-study.pdf
Todd,
I grow more and more concerned when pastors and church planters begin to base their methodologies on research data instead of the Bible. Bivocational church planting is the biblical way of starting a new church. I would encourage everyone to rely more on biblical principles than research data.
Les
Les,
You’re right, we should not base our methods on research data. At the same time, as we seek wisdom and counsel, research data can provide useful information that helps us as we make our decisions.
As for bi-vocational planting, it is certainly one important biblical
model, but not “the” biblical model.
Paul’s policy was to not that he be self-supporting, but that he not receive support from those to whom he was ministering (this seems to be a practical and contextual decision – see 1 Cor 9; and the opposite of the Lord’s instructions to the 12 and 72 when he sent them out – see Matt 10:10-11; Luke 10:7).
At many times, but not all, Paul supported Himself through tent-making. At most points in his ministry, he received some level of outside support, sometimes being fully supported by sending churches and even making appeals for such support (see, e.g., 2 Cor 11:8-9; Phil 4:14-18; Rom 15:24; 1 Cor 16:6; cf. 3 John 1:5-8). Further, we must surely factor in the fact that Paul defended the right of gospel ministers to make their living from the gospel (Gal 6:6; 1 Cor 9:9-14; 1 Tim 5:17-18).
So, we should indeed affirm and support tent-making ministry. We should certainly consider tent-making a viable option for planting churches. I believe we err, however, if we label tent-making “the” biblical model and make it a mandate for all church planting.
Blessings,
Todd
Todd,
I agree that it should not be a mandate for church planting.
Les
My question is just how many church plants were started with the kind of financing enabling a man to work full time planting and his wife not to be forced to work?
Les is talking about starting a church with no outside financing.
Notice Les said, “Here’s how we are doing it.” He’s not saying that church planters can’t homeschool or that their wives must work or even that all church planters must get outside jobs. He’s merely showing how there are other options than getting full funding from a donor base, renting a huge facility right away with launch services, core teams, killer band, etc. I appreciate his example and advice in this area, especially having read on his blog of the difficulties of leaving a pastorate and how he is seeking new opportunities for ministry.
Amazing how we jump so quick to secondary matters and ignore the major thoughts of a post.
Josh said,
“Amazing how we jump so quick to secondary matters and ignore the major thoughts of a post.”
So true, Josh. This post was on church planting, not the value of public school vs homeschooling.
I will say, though, that the Bible says that we are to go into the world and be salt and light unto it. We need to teach our children how to impact the world around them instead of the world impacting them. You can hide them from the world only for so long. When they go to college, they will be exposed to ungodly influences. When they get a secular job, they will be exposed to ungodly influences. What are they going to do then?
Finally, this method of starting new churches was THE method used by the SBC in its most explosive growth era: 1944-1965. I would venture to say that more churches have been started this way since the SBC began than any other way.
My message to pastors and church planters is if God is leading you to plant a new church, go do it. Don’t let anything stop you. Here’s one way to do it without funding from NAMB.
Les
To be fair, when you give a list of 6 things like this, you are inviting criticism of those 6 things, individually and as a whole. It is unfair to then criticize the criticism for picking apart different aspects.
Also, to be fair to those who have commented on point #2, they have generally stated that they agree with everything but those points. In blog format like this it is rather boring if we all keep commenting on how we all agree with points #1,3,4,5, and 6. True?
Les,
I echo Jason’s reply. You made public schooling an issue by an unqualified endorsement connecting it to church planting. It sort of becomes a dilemma like asking me: “Have I stopped beating my wife.”
Then you defend it: not church planting but public schooling with this argument–
“”I will say, though, that the Bible says that we are to go into the world and be salt and light unto it.””
That arguement is fallacious because you suggest that we should intentionally place our children in an environment that is harmful to them as “soldiers in a spiritual battle.”
I doubt that you would suggest that we send our young children to the Tendeloin of San Francisco at night to be salt and light to the prostitutes and drug addicts who so desperately need the gospel. It is an activity, though godly, that is not age appropriate.
God bless those children who grow up and then take on the mission of being a public school teacher. That is a whole different issue.
Like Jason and others, I can appreciate you post, especially since I’ve done that very thing in that very way successfully twice in my career.
Of course I agree with the idea that we should teach our children to be light in a dark world. But the logic of the argument doesn’t flow, and I don’t think it represents what Scripture teaches about evangelism OR raising children.
First, I don’t think most people are attempting to “hide their kids from the world”. That is a little dramatic. There is a difference between your kids being “in the world”, which they can do in any number of ways, and with them being instructed on how to think, believe, and act by the world. There is a difference between them seeing the world around them as people that need Jesus and handing them over to those same people that need Jesus to teach them how to think, believe, and act.
Second, that line of thinking makes the false assumption that (a) all these children are saved, (b) they are mature enough to filter false information, and (c) that it is the job of children to be evangelists. I know this is a difficult discussion point and it goes to the heart of some really tough issues regarding salvation.
Third, there is a difference between (1) elementary age children and their ability to comprehend and communicate the Gospel and to filter the information coming in from teachers and friends and (2) that of college age students to do the same thing. There are years of prep work between those two. There are years of maturity between those two. There are years of service and growth and experience between those two. There is a false assumption that in order to have a secular job and reach people for the Gospel you must be in the public schools. There is a false assumption that there is no better preparatory place for them than the public school. There is a false assumption that in order to be faithful in evangelism you must be in the public school (tracing that one out should be easy enough). I think you see my point, so I’ll stop.
There are other important issues involved here regarding parental responsibility and various other things, but my point is that a lot of things are assumed here that have not been proven.
Your point isn’t lost. I love that you’re addressing the option of starting a church with little or no funding. It’s really important. I think the conversation needs to take place for a number of reasons.
It’s just that including #2 in your list isn’t simply a money-saving tip. It’s commentary on family convictions.
“BTW, if you are going to use Jesus’ example maybe you should evaluate the way that he was educated or the way that Jews viewed education. Do you think they were sending their kids to the Roman schools?”
Kenneth Bailey has some interesting points about Jewish education in Nazareth his book, “Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes”. Even though Jesus was God in the Flesh and did not need educating. :o)
I want to clear something up. My decision to educate my child in a specific private school had everything to do with plain old academics. Those who send their kids to public school, who want “educated” children, will have to supplement with lots of homeschooling anyway. The “content” is just not there.
And a big portion of their day is not learning concepts and foundations but with busy work and many interruptions with discipline issues.
Just compare today with what children were taught before the Dept of Education existed. My dad started learning Latin when he was 10 in a rural public school in the 1920’s! My mom, educated in a one room schoolhouse,was reading classics at an early age. They were “educated”. Expectations were very high for them.
Children are pretty much sponges until about age 12. Why squander that in Dewey’s experiment “that schools are for social reform” we know is not working.
I have come to the conclusion the only way to reform education in this country is if enough parents take their children out of that broken system.
” will say, though, that the Bible says that we are to go into the world and be salt and light unto it. We need to teach our children how to impact the world around them instead of the world impacting them. You can hide them from the world only for so long. When they go to college, they will be exposed to ungodly influences. When they get a secular job, they will be exposed to ungodly influences. What are they going to do then? ”
Les, this is a red herring. What you are describing is more FIC stuff and homeschooling fringe people. We do not live on a rural farm avoiding those who are not like us.
One of my child’s precious playmates in the neighborhood lives with her “mom and step mom” which is how they were introduced. Get it? They are our neighbors and we live at peace with them and love them.
In this situation, I get to handle the questions she has.instead of her being indoctrinated that this is normal. Children are easily desensitized to sin and it becomes the norm. Aside from academics being my main concern with public school, I am glad I do not have to explain how the teacher is wrong concerning such lifestyles.
Les,
You said: “This post was on church planting, not the value of public school vs homeschooling”.
I do not wish to be ungracious, but I don’t really believe that you could possibly mean what you posted. Public schools are without any doubt, a tool of the government indoctrinating childen. If you don’t see that, then you aren’t looking. Schools are not supposed to be the agency that corrects all social ills. They are supposed to be a place to get a classical education and learn how to think. Now they are places that are dysfunctional. Did you know that the feds can mandate that a school educate a seriously mentally disturbed child? I had one of those children. He picked up a desk and threw it across the room. Did I say that they are unsafe? Luckily no one was hurt, except for huge hole in the drywall. I solicited help, but since the child had been to a shrink, and gained the label of ‘conduct disorder’ which is a medical diagnosis, we were forced to keep him, no matter how much havoc he caused to his classmates. During the summer break, he set his house on fire so he moved away to become the problem of another public school.
I know that not all schools are bad, but to just to just shoot from the hip by telling people to put their kids in public schools seems to be not very well thought out. Public schools are bastions of liberalism. You are an educated man. Just maybe you should investigate what you recommend.
I don’t hold you in disdain, to the contrary, I’m glad you are working to regain what you have lost.
As a parent and an educator, if anyone told me to place my child in public schools, I’d not be able to follow that person any longer. Not because I don’t respect them, but because they didn’t do their homework and a Pastor needs to provide due diligence before they give a recommendations based on not seeking out even the minimum of facts.
I will pray for your success. I know your heart is in the right place.
May God bless you richly.
“Public schools are without any doubt, a tool of the government indoctrinating childen.”
I have read something about this concerning decisions made and implemented by the Texas School Board. It was pretty shocking.
Christiane,
I’ve not read that article but if you can post it, I will read it through.
Texas is a unique state that holds some sway over all of the textbooks that are sold to the entire country. The three top schoolbook publishers are: Houghton-Mifflin, Harcourt-Brace, and McGraw-Hill ( no not Tim and Faith). The people sitting on the Texas board are always subject to the ebbs and flows of political thought. Right now we have more conservative members and they have mandated that textbooks contain less bias, and to produce books that are not full of revisionist history. But it’s always a struggle. If the liberals have more votes we get the opposite result.
Most school districts end up buying from the publisher who will provide the most bang for the buck. They pretend to do otherwise, but every teacher who has been teaching long enough knows that this is sleight of hand tactic.
In my state, the Board of Education requires all schools to display the materials that are being considered for a district purchase to the public. It usually lasts 30-45 days. We put the materials out and parents may take as long as they wish to look them over to evaluate the content. In reality, even though we notify the parents, we usually have about 30 people stop to look at the materials. The parents of the other 400 children can’t be bothered to take the time. But they sure complain if they don’t like what’s in them, after the fact.
Districts expect a major textbook purchase to last for 7 years. Teachers review the books, offer their comments are required to teach a few lessons out of the books before they are purchased. It’s a waste of time, because again, they are going to buy what is most cost effective.
As you can see, the entire process is seriously flawed and is dishonest.
I wanted to tell you that Catholic schools perform much better than public schools when it comes to standardized testing. I was recruited by the Phoenix Diocese to teach in their schools. They were very impressive. I was especially impressed by the orderliness of the schools I visited. But in my heart, I knew I couldn’t do it. I would have not been required to answer questions on the faith, but I knew it would never work. Bishop Olmstead is a wonderful man and he has clear vision on what and how schools should be ordered an designs.
God Bless
Hi KATIE,
I have taught sixth, seventh, and eighth grade in Catholic schools in New Jersey. Hardest work I ever did was trying to keep up with the nuns’ standards. Wow.
I agree. The students I taught were very well grounded in proper basics for their class levels. Rigorous curriculum, and maximum time ‘on task’ for both reading and mathematics.
They LEARNED. !!!!!!
I loved it. I will always be grateful to the great teaching order of the Sisters of St. Lucy Filipini (Morristown), who guided me professionally.
What I learned from them later benefitted my students in the inner city schools.
If you guys can find a way to NOT have comment streams jump the banks and flow all over the place, let me know!
Sorry, DAVID.
As a retired public-school teacher, I was impressed with Katie’s very honest sentence. We were forced to teach a fairly complex civics and economics curriculum content to our sixth-graders, at the command of OUR state board of education. Let’s put it this way: we tried valiantly to do our best. Politics and education don’t always serve children’s needs, when the decision-making does not include individuals who aren’t knowledgeable about child development and learning.
I’ll stop now.
Sorry.
(fascinating subject for me, you know)
Sorry.
Dave,
I shall leave this thread so as not to cause any hurt feelings. It’s never my intention to do that. But you have at least three people posting here who have had significant experience in the public schools and we earnestly think that public schools are not healthy places for our children.
I personally encourage Les on his plan, but not if includes subjecting children to public schools.
Thanks for your patience.
Les,
Thanks for posting this. Even though I disagree with the implementation of point #2, I do agree with your intent behind #2, to teach your family to reach lost people.
I think this is a good plan and helpful to think through…if this is the route you want to go in church planting.
I hope you feel that any criticism on points is not meant as an attack, but it is simply people taking your methodology and thinking through the validity of your points. After all, that was your goal in posting, correct?
Thanks Les.
Jason,
I have no problem with criticism. I am just surprised with the focus on the one point. You’re correct, though, in that if everyone agreed with every point, it would be pretty boring. Honestly, I had no idea that public school was such a “hot button” issue. I have learned something today. 🙂
My children are grown and gone now (one son: 39 years old; one son: 36 years old), so I don’t have any real idea about what is going on in public schools today from a personal perspective. I will say that the vast majority of my former church children attend public school and they are doing fine. Most all of my pastor friends who have school-age children send them to public school as well. They are doing fine too.
Perhaps it depends upon the public school in your area. Our local school’s are in suburban areas and maybe that is why our public schools are pretty good.
This has aroused my curiosity enough to write a post about it on my blog. Look for it soon.
Blessings,
Les
Jason,
One more thing. What would you substitute for point #2? That point addresses the funding issue of the family. How would you do it?
Thanks.
Les
Les,
There is no doubt that a pastor planting a church with no outside funding is in a tough spot financially. If the focus is on how to raise money through a two income family, then you have to be creative on earning money. A lot would depend on the family situation (age of kids). I knew a couple that both worked and sent their 2 kids to daycare, but the cost of daycare was almost the wife’s entire salary. If your kids are grown, this isn’t an issue, right? If your kids are a bit older, them maybe a part time job can be worked out by the wife, maybe even full-time depending on the age of the kids. Of course there could be an option for Christian schools. Lots of options available other than just sending them to public school and mom getting a full-time job.
Regardless of that, priorities must be established. If people are convinced they need to plant a church and convinced they need to educate their children at home, then they need to figure out which is more important. maybe they need to delay planting until they can establish a home situation where priorities stay in line and they can manage it. You cannot sacrifice home for the sake of church. I think we all agree on that point.
My contention was less about the finances, and more about your description of public school as a means of teaching your wife and kids to share the Gospel and provide them with opportunities. You didn’t mention finances in your support statements, only evangelism. My point is that there are MANY ways to evangelize kids in public schools without becoming a public school student. (Same philosophy as evangelizing drunks, prostitutes, coaches, engineers, bus drivers, etc – you don’t need to join them to reach them. right?) You have neighbors you can reach. You have sports and other activities (boy scouts, for one) where your kids are around unbelievers. Honestly, with my wife not working a job she is more free to share the Gospel with our neighbors, with the women at the gym, etc. I think we need to broaden our perspective on what and where we can evangelize. To be honest, some jobs hinder evangelism because of office policy…and then after a long day of work, you come home too tired to do anything else.
I think you gave us some good points, I just don’t think #2 was one of them. The underlying message of “Get your family (wife and kids) involved in evangelism” should be point #2, from there you can list ways that they can grow in their faith and help grow the church.
I hope that helps.
Jason,
Yes, that helps. Thanks.
Les
If I were to have a substitute for #2, it would be to learn to live on one income. Just be content with a lower standard of living. That indeed seems to be Pauline 🙂
That’s a good point too.
“”they are doing fine””
Les, I appreciate your graciousness receiving criticism, though I hope I have not been “critical” of you and what I perceive is the intent of your heart.
I hear the above argument all the time from people. My question always is: “how do you know they are doing fine?” or the corollary, how would they be doing if they had spent from 2 years old through high school in a dynamic Christian school that is academically superior?
I guess using most criteria, I’m “doing fine.” What I never will know is how much more devoted and effective I’d be in life as a believer if I had gone to a dynamically Christian, academically superior private school or homeschool.
10 years ago before I started research in Christian education, I would have (and did) feel the same way as you feel — what’s the big deal with point #2. I don’t see it as incidental anymore.
But, please realize that I am not being “critical” of you. I appreciate your spirit and hope that a different perspective on point #2 might make a good strategy even better.
I would point you to google, Tucson Fellowship of the Cross, to see an entire church-planting movement that is seeking to do exactly what you outline above. The pastor of this unique church plant is a long-time friend of mine. I am helping him help lay men do just what you outline above.
God bless you, and thank you for your post.
Frank L,
When I said they are “doing fine,” I mean they are well-adjusted, strong Christians serving the Lord where they are. I will take a look at the Tucson Fellowship that you mentioned. I think we can all learn from each other how to plant churches with little or no funding.
Les
Les,
A good place to find some reliable information is the Home School Defense League. While their primary focus is to assist homeschoolers being assaulted by individual states, they also have information about educational trends.
Here is a sampling:
Judge Orders 3-Year-Old into Day Care for “Socialization”
HSLDA of Canada reports a shocking case where a 3-year-old was ordered into day care for “socialization.” They are appealing on behalf of the homeschooling family whose children were all forced to attend public school programs for socialization. (HSLDA) More >>
School District Says Parent Needs License To Homeschool
HSLDA successfully intervened on behalf of a family who were being asked to obtain a license to operate a homeschool—something North Carolina law does not require. (HSLDA) More >>
Homeschooling for Sick Children—HSLDA Defends It
HSLDA intervened on behalf of two families who endured bureaucratic interference when they decided to homeschool children with chronic illnesses. (HSLDA) More >>
HSLDA Fights for Homeschooled Military Enlistees
HSLDA helped persuade Pentagon officials to extend a program that places homeschool recruits in the military’s highest enlistment option. (HSLDA) More >>
Umbrella Diplomas Problematic for Maryland Law Enforcement Jobs
Despite a lengthy discussion with an HSLDA attorney, Baltimore County Police refused to accept as valid a homeschool graduate’s umbrella program diploma. (HSLDA) More >>
Who Should Issue the Diploma?
As graduation season approaches, HSLDA wishes to remind homeschooling parents they can rest assured concerning the validity of the diplomas they issue their students. (HSLDA) More >>
Florida Joins States Calling for Parental Rights Amendment
Florida has become the fifth state to pass a resolution calling on the U.S. Congress to send the Parental Rights Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to the states for ratification. (HSLDA) More >>
Judge’s Order Seeking Homeschooler Identities Overruled
The Mississippi Supreme Court has vacated a judge’s order which sought the names and addresses of homeschoolers in a certain district. The victory protects home educators from the flagrant misuse of judicial power. (HSLDA) More >>
Cornell University Asks for GED or State-Approved Diploma
When a longtime member family had a college question the validity of the diploma they issued their daughter, HSLDA vouched for them by pointing to the law. (HSLDA) More >>
German Authorities Threaten Homeschool Family
A German judge recognized that homeschooling provides quality education, but still denied a family permission to teach their children at home. (HSLDA) More >>
Family Gets a Visit from the Police
A member family in their first year of homeschooling did all they were supposed to in regard to notifying public school officials, but they still came close to being cited for truancy. (HSLDA) More >>
State Supreme Court Rules Homeschooled Girl to Stay in Public School
In a highly visible and contentious divorce case, the New Hampshire Supreme Court ruled in favor of a father who wanted his previously homeschooled daughter enrolled in public school. (HSLDA) More >>
Abuse Report Recommends Supervising Homeschoolers
A special panel investigating the horrific allegations of abuse and neglect of two adopted children in Florida recently released their recommendations. At least two of these could have a major impact on homeschooling families, possibly triggering extra scrutiny by state officials. (HSLDA) More >>
Congress Introduces Legislation to Make American Community Survey Optional
HSLDA has long been concerned about the level of personal information collected and the invasiveness of the American Community Survey. If you share this concern, we urge you to contact your U.S. representative about a bill that would make most of the questions on the survey optional. (HSLDA) More >>
The Power of Activism
HSLDA helped rally homeschoolers in Provo, Utah, to successfully oppose a proposed daytime curfew law. (HSLDA) More >>
Appellate Briefs Filed in Arizona Illegal-Search Case
HSLDA recently filed their response brief to the Ninth Circuit in Loudermilk v. Arpaio, et al, where several deputies assisting social workers in Arizona violated the Fourth Amendment rights of a homeschooling family. The deputies have until January 27 to file their response to HSLDA’s brief, should they deem that necessary. (HSLDA) More >>
Over 2 Million Children are Homeschooled
In a new study released today the National Home Education Research Institute estimates there were over 2 million children being homeschooled in the United States in 2010. (HSLDA) More >>
Here is the link: http://www.hslda.org/
I look forward to reading your blog. And… not to be disagreeable.
In His Grace.
Chief Katie,
Thanks for the information. I am pretty well-acquainted with the homeschool movement. While I pastored my former church, we began hosting a homeschool co-op on Fridays. They were allowed to use our building for their Friday schooling.
I have a great deal of respect for parents who homeschool their children. It is hard work and takes a great deal of effort. I think homeschooling is a viable option and should be left alone by the government.
Les
Some have questioned why Les would advocate church starting without a lot of money.
Get used to it, folks. Until the economy turns around, and unless people get a renewed passion for missions giving through the CP, we are going to have to learn to do what we do with less money.
In fact, Les, you ought to write a book (or at least a series of articles – you are sort of the designated “small church” guy in the SBC) about “Ministry on a Micro-Budget.”
I’m afraid the salad days are over for the SBC. Our new motto should be “Doing More with Less.”
(By the way, Les, if you ever run for office again, it could be “Doing More with Les” as your campaign slogan – sorry, I’ll shut up now.)
He could get together with the guy from Southern and have a podcast: “Moore with Les on Scripture and Life as a Baptist” 🙂
Ha, ha, guys. I’ve never heard those before.
Les
Yeah, I’ll bet you haven’t. Just like I’ve never heard, “It’s Miller time.”
I always refer to your posts as “Miller Lites”.
Oh, my goodness.
Even better…Miller Genuine Drafts. No fake Dave Miller writings here!
I think it is fine for Les to have recommended the option that he has recommended.
I, also, agree with many of the comments regarding public schools. Hearing these stories is so sad and maddening. We were able to escape all of the horribles that you guys have cited in our situation.
However, I fully support whatever educational choices conscientious parents make for their children – public, private or home school. Many parents are single. Many don’t have the resources to send their kids to private schools. Many are in economic situations that make public school the only realistic option for them.
I am not making a commentary on public schools, whether they are good, whether they are bad etc.
But I will comment on churches’ attitudes toward public schools. I believe it is fair game to criticize public schools for the things that have been mentioned in this post. I also believe it is fair to criticize public schools for doing a bad job of educating. Some of the private schools that are not Christian have some of the same problems related to various movements and ideologies. My daughters attend an all girl independent school. There are many Christian families that attend the school, and many non-Christian families that attend. The school has liberal attitudes about many topics, but tries to be sensitive, but there is an agenda. My kids and others see that. My kids are at an age where they can spot that. In the 7th or 8th grade they read that book that is a counter to C.S. Lewis’s Chronicles of Narnia. Their teacher is an avowed atheist. My kids, and most of their friends, came through that fine. We just decided as a family that what we wanted most for our girls was a rigorous academic experience. We knew they would be exposed to things that were contrary to Christian thought.
I guess it’s not too different from college. Surely, if your student goes to Harvard, Yale, MIT etc., they are going to get a big dose of secularism. But it may be a good decision for that student.
Again, I affirm whatever parents feel called to do, so long as they have an understanding and are conscientious. I would never presume to tell a family where they should send their kids to school and what choice would be best for that family. Their are lots of considerations to make, and I think that families have that obligation and right.
I believe that while it is right for churches and people to level legitimate criticism at public schools. But I believe that it is wrong to level criticism at people who have made an educational choice for their family that they feel is best.
I also believe that the churches need to be careful not to remove themselves from society at large. If our churches become places where only homeschool or Christian school families feel welcome (and not directly or indirectly criticized for their educational choices), our opportunities to reach those people will diminish. And that will have an impact.
I am 50. I remember well the Christian School movement and its impact on Independent Baptists. Some Independent Baptists became very inward looking and lost their ability, in my opinion, to reach many types of people. One of the reasons for his was the Christian schools that were attached to the churches. In many places, if you joined the church, you were expected to send your kids to the Christian school supported by the church. Most of the kids in the youth group went to the school, did sports and other activities with the same kids. There was very little contact with the world outside of the church and the Christian school.
I do not believe that this model is a good one for reaching people, and I have not seen it work in these groups. As the people aged, they did not bring in many new people (because their social contacts were so limited), and most of their kids did not stick around.
So – I am for, 100%, any choice that a parent feels they should make about education. And I would affirm that family and their children. And I would not get my church and its people in a situation where people would feel looked down upon for sending their children to public schools. And I would not organize my church and its mission so that it loses contact with the wider community, schools or otherwise.
And I say all that not being a huge fan of the public schools and seeing the problems that exist there.
I
Wouldn’t you agree that sending an 18 year old off to Yale is a different scenario than sending an 11 year old to Middle School?
I think everyone would…so it is quite “different”.
I do not advocate the church pulling out of society. I just think people have sold the farm if they think: public school = being in society or that keeping your kids in it is the only way to impact the city or culture. Those things simply are not true.
Bivocational church planter and bivocational pastor are the two most overlooked and under appreciated roles in the SBC.
In a secular job you meet more prospects and get to share the Gospel just as much if not more than you would in working as a church planter or pastor full time.
Been there and done that and wish now after 30 years I had never taken my first full-time church!
Amen!
Jason:
I agree that an 18 year old going to Yale is different than an 11 year old in middle school.
But an 18 year old going to Yale is no small matter. The temptations and the alure may even be greater at that age, especially if the 18 year old has not had much experience standing on his or her own.
Also, I am not saying public school is the only way to impact society or culture.
But ask yourself these questions:
What percentage of the families in your community send their children to public school?
Of that percentage, how many have really viable options? (For starters, single moms and dads and families where both spouses work will probably have a tough time doing anything other than public school).
If a church and its people speak against public education, say that it’s “worse than the pit of hell” (yes, one of our members said that one time), how likely is it that families who are in public schools are going to feel welcome in that church.
So, look at the % that was figured above, and basically you can write that group off as likely prospects for your church. They will go somewhere if they are reached. It just won’t be church that makes them feel bad for sending their children to public school, which in many cases may be their only option.
You have just written off the lower middle class and the working poor from ever coming to that church, or you have at least put a huge stumbling block in their way.
Again, I think that we can telll the truth about public schools and their short comings. Many people in the system know them better than we do. We will not be faulted for accurate and sensitive truth telling.
But if the only hope that we hold out for people is Jesus – plus a social/educational arrangement that is not within their grasp, they will go somewhere will people have a message of hope for them.
And if that % of people above is a large group, we are missing a large % of people.
Jason, do you pastor? If so, what percentage of the people in your congregation go to public schools? What do you say to them?
I think it is irresponsible for pastors (and church members) to create a spiritual “A team” and spiritual “B team” by lambasting parents for having their kids in public schools.
Yes, I pastor.
I have not and will not (that I plan) preach a message on public schools. I preach texts, not politics or personal agenda.
My encouragement to parents is family discipleship. Father-led discipleship in the home. Everyone can do that. Those that don’t know how, we teach. That often will lead to people figuring out that their JOB is the teaching and discipleship of their kids…not a youth pastor or a school teacher. When they take that seriously, then they make changes. Some stay in public school, that is fine. They just know they have more work to do at night and on the weekends to teach and disciple their kids. Others find another method. Great.
My goal is not home-education, it is family discipleship. But I am convinced home-education is the best means of formalized education that supports what I am doing in family discipleship.
I do not make people feel like outsiders or second-class citizens. I would say half our families have their kids in public school, and the other half are a mixture of homeschool and private.
Like I said, it is not my mission to create a church of home-schoolers…but it IS my mission to have a church of people committed to discipling their kids, and those with grown kids to be ministering and supporting those with kids in this endeavor.
I hope that sheds some light on my perspective.
The Y is indeed a good place to hit up for space until you get a place. Here are a few other options to investigate:
Depending on your local school system, you may be able to meet in a school gymnasium for a small weekly rent. There are more than one schools in my area being used this way.
If there is a private Christian school, you may be able to get some Sunday space there as well. The school that uses our church for their elementary classrooms has a gym that is being used by a new church that is building elsewhere.
Another option is to meet in an existing church. For example, one of our sister churches planted a Spanish church that has met in an older chapel that they have.
Also, other churches with dramatically shrinking memberships (often in recently liberalized denominations) have room in fellowship halls or chapels that they can barely afford to keep up anymore. I haven’t seen it actually happen, but I have seen these churches entertain the possibility of having new churches in other denominations use part of their facility for the money make their budget. What can it hurt to ask?
Jim,
Excellent suggestions.
Les
Jason:
That sounds completely reasonable to me. I am in agreement.
Some of the statements in this thread, however, have flat out said that it would be a bad thing to put one’s children in public school.
And I would assume that those who feel that way, if they pastor, would support SBC resolutions to that effect, and would say things llike that. If not from the pulpit, in general conversation.
I am glad that you don’t say that kind of stuff.
Louis,
I am torn on some of the resolutions, to be honest. I really do think it is unwise to put kids in public schools. But, I don’t think it is sin. Some do. I don’t want to draw the line there. I also don’t want to force people to do things, I want them to want to do it because they are convinced it is wise.
That said…I think parents that are not discipling their kids ARE sinning. That is a biblical mandate. So I WILL draw a line there. Like I said, I think homeschooling lines up best with that, but there are exceptions and I am not close-minded to the idea at all. The discouraging thing to me is people who ASSUME that public school is morally neutral or that because some of the teachers are believers that it makes it ok. I am open to dialogue on the issue…but too many of the arguments (especially to public school, but on both sides) are too simplistic and myopic.
I do not encourage parents to pull their kids out of public school. I encourage them to disciple their kids rigorously. But it has been my experience that when people do they see how public school (and many private schools) undermine their efforts at discipleship. They then are faced with a challenge. If they are convinced that public school is not causing a problem, or the problem is manageable, then ok. I have seen some families home school one kid and send the other to public school (high school age). As long as family discipleship is the focus, then I am open. But I also know that one type of schooling lends itself best to that approach.
Does that make sense?
Makes sense to me.
We have tried mightily at our church not to recommend a specific educational track for kids. There are pros and cons to the different arrangements.
Some, not all, of the homeschoolers in our church have said some very unwise things to parents who make different educational choices. They have either said public schools are the pit of hell, or it is not God’s best etc. This has caused a great deal of grief for many parents.
The majority of the people in our metro community do public schools. We want to reach those families. We don’t want to say anything to people that makes homeschooling part of the Gospel because it isn’t. The benefits of homeschooling are obvious. But there are drawbacks, too. A lot depends on the family and the kid.
The bottom line is that our children are going to hear different messages in this culture. At school, on T.V., through music, through friends, through friends of friends.
I do not think that it is a wise strategy to set out to keep children from hearing bad things or seeing bad things. We do what we can, obviously. But they are going to hear different things.
If one can control their kids’ lives so completely that they are not exposed to some messages that are contrary to the Gospel, it may indicate a walling off or separation that while protective, may be harmful in the long run.
Parenting is a tough thing. I will support parents in whatever they try to do, so long as, you noted, they understand the pros and cons and try to disciple as God is leading them.
But there will always be disagreements about the best approach. A lot depends on the family, the kid, the available options etc.
I think that resolutions about public school are fine. Everyone knows they need improvement, even the people who attend.
But some of the resolutions advocate withdrawal or say things that are hurtful to Christians in the public schools.
I think that we can speak to these issues without being counterproductive.
“”I do not think that it is a wise strategy to set out to keep children from hearing bad things or seeing bad things. We do what we can, obviously. But they are going to hear different things.””
Louis, the problem I have with that statement is: 1) you seem to think hearing something bad in public school is an inconsequential, occasional problem. The whole premise of public education going back to at least 1850 is: the government can do a better job of raising children than the parents.
Just watch “Waiting for Superman.” There is nothing good about public education. This is the same man who made Al Gore’s Oscar Winning movie. He is pro-public school but in the course of making the movie, he points out the problems inherent, not consequential, in public education.
I simply do not understand how pastors pontificate on every imaginable topic, but back off on the single-most powerful institution in the United States committed by design to eradicating faith and individual critical thinking.
I just don’t get it.
I was a youth pastor for 5 years and have worked with young people in each church I pastored – I’ve been doing that for 30 years.
I have a pretty good sampling – not scientific perhaps but a pretty large sampling group.
I have seen homeschooled kids that turned out to be some of the greatest and godliest kids I have ever seen. I have seen some homeschooled kids who were messed up pretty badly.
I have seen some Christian schooled kids who were simply gems – great kids who loved Jesus. I have seen some Christian schooled kids that were messed up pretty badly.
I have seen some public schooled kids who were amazingly convictional, bold and passionate about their faith. I have seen some public schooled kids who were messed up pretty badly.
My wife and I had our convictions. (We put our kids in Christian school until they reached high school, then they went to the public high schools). That was our conviction and it worked well for us.
I have some opinions about schooling kids, but I do not believe this is an issue where we can speak for everyone. Each family must make a convictional decision about what God would have them do and follow their convictions.
I know I said I was going to blog about the public school vs homeschool issue, but I think we’ve discussed it to death over here.
Thanks for all of the conversation. God bless you all.
Les
Thanks for letting me post this, Les. It has been a lively (if perhaps somewhat sideways) discussion.
Dave,
I am confused as to why you think this discussion was off topic so to speak. The majority of the discussion centered around the actual merits of the second point among six that Les posted. It did so primarily because the other 5 points were generally agreed upon as good ones so this was the only point that seemed to invite further discussion. What is “sideways” about that?
You are probably right.
We did not really discuss church planting as much as school choice – that was my point.
I was probably transferring some of my angst from recent comment streams that have been consistently going astray.
I thought that overall this was a pretty good discussion.
Dave, I know that a few comments fall into most threads that just beat an old drum.
But blogs are like coffee-house conversations it seems to me. Someone brings up an topic and someone responds that sparks another comment that leads to a slightly different place.
I think that is how new ideas develop. So, I appreciate the very open (though I agree sometimes scattered) discussion of this blog.
It’s more like a meandering river than a rocket launch.
“That’s a little over the top don’t you think Lydia?”
I guess it depends on how one views it. One’s experience in such matters and what one views as normal, acceptable public behavior.
” I think we should table the school discussion and get back to Les’ article as a whole which I thought had some good suggestions.”
It was part of Les’ article. Some of us think sacrificing kids most valuable years of education on the altar of church planting is over the top. I have cousins who would go back and change what they did in sending their preteens to another country to boarding school when on the mission field. It was a huge mistake they regret.
So I got tired of reading all the posts, but if you all are so anti-government, anti-public school, why not move? I mean, Jews didn’t use Roman schools, I am sure they didn’t pay taxes either, since they support schools. Maybe you should start an insurrection. Stop paying property taxes, which support the schools that teach us how to be corrupt. Goodness knows, there is no way a parent could have more influence that an educator. LET’S BURN EM AT THE STAKE!
and yes, that was sarcasm. Jesus didn’t use that either, so I guess I learned it in public school.
Could one become a sovereign citizen and do all that you said while staying in the USA?
BTW, Dan, you’re obviously an Obama government blogger plant put in place by Bush.
“Yes Lydia, believe it or not Private schools have their share of problems too. I went to a private school for 4 years. There was bullying, and girls getting pregnant having to leave school, just as in public school. They are not perfect. The students who leave private school are not perfect either. ”
Debbie must you trot out the old “perfection” red herring? I do not expect perfection. I look at test scores, curriculum, class size and method. Now, according to you, people who know public schools are not really educating our children (not a big secret for those who care to follow such things and even look at test scores across the nation), are fringe people who believe in government conspiracies. Ok, Debbie.
I am shutting down comments on this stream. Any attempt to take the arguments to other streams will be deleted.
I apologize to Les Puryear for letting this comment stream get out of hand, but I just cannot and do not monitor things on Sunday.