How to Plant a Church with Little or No Outside Funding (by Les Puryear)

Dan, I understand those common arguments. I, too worked in the public school system as a teacher. I, too, went to public school. My kids, too, graduated from public school. None of that changes the fact that the public school–by design–is anti-Christian and pro-socialism (or industrialism). That’s just the facts.

Also, I could invite people to church in brothel, but that doesn’t make the brothel anything more than what it is.

It is ironic that the most damaging evidence of late for the public school system comes from a “pro-public school” documentary, “Waiting for Superman.” I’ve spent the last 8 years researching education in all its various facets, so I’m not speaking from a spirit of fear, but a bank of knowledge.

Though, I’m not going to have a fit over Les’ (or anyone else’s) statements for public education, I do want to give my counter-point.

This does not even address the recent bill before the legislature in California mandating the teaching of “gay history” in all state textbooks. As California goes in this regard, so will the textbooks throughout the U.S. This is further proof that the agenda of government education is anything but education.

As I said, I’m not going to jump up and down in a tantrum, but simply state the facts as I know them. I only bring it up because Les brought it up first.

Did you really just compare school to a brothel? Wow.

Ryan,

If you honestly think that children are allowed to openly discuss their faith in a public school, then you are profoundly wrong. I’ve seen elementary school kids suspended for such behavior. And… it’s only going to get worse. Heck, my principal asked me to put a cover on my Bible or remove it.

Our schools are openly anti-Christian now, and that’s ‘da’ facts. I taught for 10 years and I rarely saw a child who could hold up against the assault they were subjected to by other children. I personally think it is wrong to subject our kids to so much negativity.

Katie-
As a parent of 2 children in public school I could not disagree with you more. My oldest shares her faith on a regular basis in her school with both friends and teachers. One bad experience or administrator does not allow for a sweeping generalization.

Besides, who said being a Christian or sharing faith was going to be easy? You need to grow up and put on your big boy pants. We are not in the game when we pick up our toys and go home because someone told us to stop talking about Jesus.

I think American Christians are spoiled and I weep for the future of the Church in America if we continue to whine about how “hard” it is to share the Gospel in a public school Go to China or Iran or Egypt and share your faith and then come home and thank Jesus that you’re getting a hard time from a principal about putting a cover on your Bible.

We have no reason to withdraw from public schools, we just have a lot of whiny, embittered, alarmist “Christians” who need to wake up and see what’s going on.

As a former public school teacher, I can tell you that we do not ‘proselytize’ our students. We are to teach what is on the curriculum in accordance with state standards of learning, as outlined to us by our administration.

Public school teachers today are being asked to do so much more than teach. Christian parents can help them by sending their children to school with the understanding that they are to be respected by others, and they are to respect others. Christian parents need to communicate with their children’s teachers concerning academic progress (or lack thereof) and any concerns that the parent or the child may have about the school experience. This communication should also be conducted respectfully on the part of the teacher and the parent, so as to keep the focus on what is best for the child.

Religious education is serious business and is the duty of parents and clergy. But public school teachers should never ‘proselytize’ any child in their care . . . that is absolutely not professional.

Ryan,

I don’t doubt that some children share there faith in public school. There will always be exceptions. But, for me (I understand you disagree) I don’t think violating the clear teaching of Scripture in regard to the education of our children is justified by evangelism.

The point then becomes, for me (again I understand you disagree) is does the Scripture say anything about how a child should be taught or what a child should be taught?

Then, I reason, does government forced schooling based intentionally from the start on anti-Christian principles fulfill God’s clear teaching.

The answer to the first question is: yes, the Bible clearly teaches how we should educate our children. In short, education must be completely under the control of the parent. The content must be thoroughly God-centered. I think these two principles are clearly taught in God’s Word.

Does government forced schooling fulfill the above agenda from God’s Word? Clearly it is not a God-centered curriculum–by law. Clearly it is not parent controlled. If you think you as a parent can control your child’s education, just read the law. For example a school official in most districts (I do not know about all) can assist your daughter in getting an abortion without your knowledge. Do you consider that control?

Most parents have no clue where our public education came from. Most people do not know for example that the method for teaching reading for over 30 years was developed initially to teach deaf children, which is why phonics (from the Latin word of sound or voice) was not taught.

I’m simply making an appeal for American parents to do a little bit of research so the discussion is based upon facts, not feelings.

Referring to me as a “whiny, embittered, alarmist . . . who needs to wake up and see what’s going on” when I have: 1) taught in public school; 2) researched and read about government forced education; and 3) given my life to developing a unique approach to provide Christian schooling that is affordable and distinctively Christian while being academically superior . . . well, I think your accusation is a bit harsh and misguided.

Ryan,

I said I was going to exit this discussion, but I can’t ever remember having someone tell me to put on my “big boy pants”. I find that extremely insulting and just plain rude. Been watching Bryan Masche?

I have tried to be generous here even when I don’t agree, but this exceeds anything I have ever seen on a Christian forum. And I never thought I’d see it here at SBC Voices. If putting on my “big boy” pants is your best suggestion, then you are 19-20 years too late. I had those pants on while I was onboard ship in the Persian Gulf defending your right to say something so nasty under the whole idea that you can use your free speech unencumbered by such ideas as civility, to say nothing of speaking that way to a Christian, let alone a Christian woman.

You are entitled to your opinion. You can disagree and that’s perfectly fine with me.

You haven’t spent 10 years working up close with kids, parents, administrators and the many dark forces that are out there.

I’m certainly happy to see that your children are doing well, but I have seen students suspended in an elementary school for such a discussion. Ever watched the discussion between a child who is a Jehovah’s Witness and a Mormon? No, I didn’t think so. I have.

I understand my place here. I am not as well educated as some of you are. I just have a measly M.Ed., and it’s not in theology. But I’m quick to admit when I am wrong, because I don’t have the same knowledge. However, education is something I know a great deal about. It is my Christian duty to warn parents about the unseemly and downright sinful influences their children are facing. I hope for the sake of your children, you’ll not agree with the state when they come for your children… because Ryan, there ARE coming.

This is another thing that is tiresome and what I would consider very extreme for which so many Christians are famous for doing, including Voddie Bauchman. Not only overstating the case as in they are coming for your children, the government is evil, run for your lives for the sake of your children. I’m sorry but I was educated in the Public school system, my children were, 2 in college, one with her Masters degree, the other getting there, and while the system is far from perfect, dangerous is a little over the top.

And please Katie, don’t tell us that you know more than we do, I don’t buy that either.

“”Not only overstating the case as in they are coming for your children,””

Debbie, I don’t know if I would use that particular phrase in describing how the government views children, but it seem pretty clear from the history of the government school movement that the purpose was not education, but socialization.

John Dewey, for example, was a favorite philosopher of socialists, and considered a “father of American education.” So the idea that the government has an agenda that is something more than education and academics does not seem to be far-fetched.

Also, the early movers and shakers (power behind the government school movement) were industrialists, not educators. Have you ever wondered why? I don’t, because the history is clear, they viewed children as commodities to increase the economic power of America (and there bulging fortunes).

Just thought you might want to consider another perspective.

Frank: If you want to see the truth of the history of the public school system look up these two names. Horace Mann, Henry Bernard. I majored in history along with my nursing classes in college.

No it didn’t Jeff because I don’t believe that to be true. I have to bow out of this discussion, it’s going beyond conspiracy theories. I truly pray that you guys see the ridiculousness of this conversation. Sorry Les, I do appreciate the thought you put into your post. I’m sorry it went in this direction.

Well said, Ryan! I went to public schools, but that was 1958-1970, and I was not a Christian or churched anyway. My kids are a different story though: they were in public schools 1987-2004, and they are both Christians, and as far as I can tell, the experience did them no harm. My daughter is still active, and my son less so–but it is not because of public schools. The fact is: some fall away from active participation in faith matters, no matter what, be they public-, private-, or home-schooled. And often when they do, it gets blamed on their schooling, at which they are confined for six hours a day, five days a week, 9 or 10 months a year. However, this is, what? 18% of their time during years from grades 1 through 12? Anecdotally, I find more young people out of church due to family or church issues than school issues. My son is a prime example; the churches I served from the time he was in pre-school until his HS graduation were all dysfunctional, and he simply got tired of seeing so-called Christians acting like jerks (and worse) to one another and me. In other words, churches can themselves be a toxic environment, as can homes, even when it is not visible or obvious to “outsiders.” And as for public schools, I will concede that some that are are anti-Christian, but the public schools in the US are not monolithic, not even where I am, in a Maryland suburb or Washington.

John

John, Frank, Chief, et al,

Here’s a link to a great article/analysis of what happens when the church serves the public schools rather than abandoning them. Yes, I realize this will be dismissed by some because it is a PCA movement, but the non-closed minded among us might be intrigued.

http://byfaithonline.com/page/in-the-world/transforming-neighborhoods-by-transforming-public-schools

I’m sure Frank and Katie will find tons wrong with this approach, but they find fault in anything short of building a fort with a moat and machine gun nests to “protect” themselves. 😉

Really Ryan? A moat? Did you hi-jack that comment from our President who found it necessary to insult every person from AZ who actually has to fear the machine guns from the illegals coming across our border? Since I live in AZ… well… never mind. You are not a teacher. But you are a parent. You said previously that you had two children in public school. Would that be your 7 years old and your 3 years old, or is it the one not quite 1 year old? Not that it matters. Send me a message when you children have been under the indoctrination of the public schools for 10 more years. I’m not a Presbyterian Hater, especially the PCA but I prefer Voddie Baucham. Voddie Baucham advocates Christians pulling their children out of government-run schools. He has a response for those who say they can’t afford private education or home-schooling — find a way. Dr. Voddie Baucham says Christians cannot expect to win the culture war unless they are willing to pull their children out of the public schools — or as he calls them, “the pagan schools” — which allow teaching that is not biblical. According to Baucham, many Christians say they would love to get out of public schools, but cannot afford the alternative. His answer is simple — find a way. “Do whatever you have to do. Do you know there’s a national network of home-schooling single mothers? They find a way. It’s amazing what people do to find a way,” he says. “We find a way to do everything else in this world — and nothing matters more than what we’re doing to pass on the faith from generation to generation.” Baucham is also calling on churches to step up and help. “[Churches need] to find a way to assist and equip Christians, to disciple them in this area of education,” Baucham continues, “so that the church can then assist parents who need help finding a way to get their children out of these pagan schools.” The Christian education advocate has released a new DVD series called, “Whoever Controls the School Controls the World.” And then there is this: http://www.voddiebaucham.org/vbm/Blog/Entries/2010/1/11_January_Question_of_the_Month.html My husband has a question for you. As an Elder in your church, is this the way you talk to people who look to you for spiritual guidance? Would you actually say to a woman… Read more »

Katie: If you are going to be in these discussions, I think reality is in order. They are coming to get us? You want us to take this seriously? Government conspiracies are a dime a dozen.

Ryan, I may have missed one of my posts, but I don’t remember advocating any violence or threatening people with machine guns.

That statement makes you sound well entrenched in your perspective. I doubt any evidence that actually has a basis in fact will sway your mind.

By the way . . . you assume that someone who advocates Christian-based education is not involved in public school reform. I guess you know what they say about “assuming” things.

It is not even my goal to persuade you to at least investigate a Biblical approach to educating “your” children. You do with them as you please–their your children.

I understand you have a different perspective on letting the government have a significant role in shaping the minds of your children. You see that as “godly.” I see it as “ungodly.” We obviously differ.

But, that doesn’t mean that I think your ignorance of the facts cannot be remedied. If after you read books like “The Underground History of American Education” and several others, you remain unconvinced of the damage government controlled education causes, then, at least, you are speaking from an informed point of view.

The ad hominem approach you are taking does not dissuade me, and I doubt persuades anybody. It just makes you look uncivil.

And, if you want to continue to insult me, you should at least be fair and go to the back of the line of people who don’t agree with me — it’s a very long line.

Are you guys really bent on spending your life afraid and spreading fear like the Apocalypse? I think that is so wrong and so contrary to scripture. The Bible speaks of how we are to be with our government, and we are to pay taxes, obey the laws and live in peace as much as we are able to.

To drum up things with no cooberating proof, but the tales keep getting bigger and bigger. It isn’t the way we are to live as Christians. I haven’t lived that way for years, although I was raised to fear everything, including the scanners when the supermarket first came out with them. Then it was Social security cards, because they were one step away from the number on the forehead, then it was credit cards for the same reason. Now it’s leaked into working wives vs. stay at home(as with schooling, either way God leads is fine, it is a personal choice).

How is this much different than God has left the churches so we must too, and May 21st is the end of the world type thinking? It’s no different. It’s extremism at it’s finest. Conspiracies abound.

Private Schools are fine. Public schools are fine and unfortunately the intent of this post went south several days ago.

“”How is this much different than God has left the churches so we must too,””

What?

Yes Frank, it is a question that I believe is relevant to the comments the two of you are giving. I would also classify it with the sky is falling.

Ryan, I really don’t mind you disagreeing with me. You call me ignorant, yet I am willing to bet I am better informed in this area than you are in any way you want to measure.

For example, and this just one. I’d bet that if someone asked you: “does homework (a staple in public education methodology) increase learning,” you would answer, “well of course.” Most people who have kids in public school would answer this way, and many in private school.

The fact is: I researched this intensely and did not find one credible peer reviewed research paper that said homework was productive. I did find several that showed homework has a negative impact.

So, while you may disagree with me, I don’t think you can prove your accusation that I am ignorant.

Secondly, you accuse me twice of “lying.” Yet, show me one falsehood I have proposed.

I am not attempting to change your mind or anybody else’s. I am simply offering a different perspective. In my last school (middle school) one student rammed a pencil through the eardrum of a little girl. Another little boy was beaten so bad by classmates that he was put on life support. These instances took place within a month of each other.

If you do not think this is equivalent to “playing in traffic,” you and I most certainly will disagree. However, I was not primarily referring to “physical” danger, but to emotional and spiritual danger.

One more thing before I go to bed: your insults are completely wasted on me because I could not care less whether you think I am ignorant, fearful, ghettoiszed, separatist or whatever. I learned a long time ago not to evaluate my self worth according to the opinions of strangers.

“The fact is: I researched this intensely and did not find one credible peer reviewed research paper that said homework was productive. I did find several that showed homework has a negative impact.”

Frank, I absolutely disagree. Homework, if assignments are appropriate in content and in length, can ‘reinforce’ what is learned in class. Not to mention the training in responsibility.

Teachers on a ‘team’ can actually structure a homework assignment that brings elements together from the different disciplines: for example ‘graphing’ learned in math class can be used to illustrate data from a science experiment. Or a writing assignment can use a prompt that is developed from a topic discussed in a social studies class.
This cross-curriculum type of independent practice actually does help students to ‘pull together’ what they have learned and try it out on their own in a new format.
Believe me, they thrive when encouraged to try this kind of convergent exercise.

There are many ways in which appropriate, well-designed homework assignments can benefit and strengthen learning.

I don’t know what research sources you have used, since you did not give any references, but I think you might want to widen your research sources a bit.

Christianne,

I know that is what the common sense, public mindset says. You can disagree all you want, but it won’t change the facts. I’m suggesting: check the research. It is unmistakably negative in regard to homework.

I have a stack of research including two full length books. One is written by a public school advocate, and the others are journals and essays and various other sources.

Yet, you have never even read one research article, but simply reply out of your “gut” feeling. Just google: does homework work and see for yourself. I would never expect anybody to take my word for anything.

But, when you find out what the research says, ask yourself: if homework doesn’t increase comprehension, why is it a mainstay of the public school approach? I’ll give you one possible answer: the government is not satisfied with controlling your children for 6 o 8 hours so they tack on 2 or 3 more.

Homework not only does not help academically, it is one of the main stressers on family life. The last thing most parents want to do when they come home from working 8 hours with a 2 hour commute is try to figure out little Johnny’s Algebra.

Also, ask yourself this question: why is it the teacher’s text has clear, complete explanations for how to do math problems, but that is not given to students and parents? Does that not seem strange to you? If reason A doesn’t make sense for why the school does something, shouldn’t we look for a reason B?

Finally, I have started two schools now in the last 12 years both with a “no homework” policy. For one, it is a major selling point for parents. But, more importantly, by giving students a complete curriculum (clear explanations of problems) and eliminating homework, 98% of our students in Middle School scored post high school in the Standardized Tests.

Please, don’t take my word for it. A simple “google search” will open your eyes — unless they are glued shut by pride or prejudice.

A simple “google search” will open your eyes — unless they are glued shut by pride or prejudice.

Frank,

They’re not only glued shut, they’re self-glued shut to anything remotely conservative. She has self glued them shut to the gospel, which she hates with a passion that scares the bejesus out of me–I mean, I’m more afraid of her than any muslim extremist. She has also glued them shut to anything she might regard as conservative politically.

“Also, ask yourself this question: why is it the teacher’s text has clear, complete explanations for how to do math problems, but that is not given to students and parents? Does that not seem strange to you?” Boy is this true. My friends who have kids in public school complain about this all the time. It usually starts around 4th grade when it becomes a huge problem because they are not spending a lot of time on the concepts before they have homework on it. The kids are lost, the parents are lost (because they do not teach math like they used to..even the definitions have changed) and it is a recipe for total frustration. As one friend told me, “Why couldn’t they have at least sent home a list of the definitions.” I live in one of the largest public school districts in the country. We bus kids across town to attend a school that is not in their community. And yes, the supreme court said they could attend local school. But guess what? They are full and have waiting lists. We spend 70 million per year on just busing. Elementary classrooms have 30 kids but by the end of year have 32. Since “mainstreaming” is now a federal law, you have low functioning kids in the classroom with high functioning and the teacher has to teach to them all. That is not possible with time, discipline and paperwork requirements. Our pastor took his mildly autistic child out of public school by 3rd grade. He was disgressing. his wife went back to work so they can send him to a special private school for such learners that costs 10,000 year for such students. And he has literally blossomed in that environment. The change is remarkable. He was lost in the public school. Our grandparents did not have homework but were better educated in the basics. How can that be? They were reading, doing chores and playing instruments after school. And one last point, in our public school system, they have cut history down so much that students have no clue what has gone before them. It is not even offered at all in their senior year. Perhaps that is not a bad thing when you consider the text books and who might be interpreting history for them. :o( I make my point by seeing they are only taught the… Read more »

Justin –

Those kids are not being evangelized in schools. Period. That argument is weak because even with Christian kids there, they are not sharing the Gospel on the whole with the lost kids. It is a rare event when they do.

That said…even if they did, it is a fallacy to assume that the ONLY place those kids can be evangelized and the ONLY place those kids have relationships is IN THE SCHOOL.

BTW, are there kids that are socially awkward and anti-social in the public schools? Should be an obvious “yes”…so that should be proof that public school is not what makes kids “social”. Sadly, what most people mean when they say kids are “sheltered” is that they don’t know the latest trends and pop culture. That is unimportant and shows the subtle worldliness of the church more than a desire for personal growth of these kids.

The answer to the issue is getting them around other people/kids, not necessarily putting them in public schools. Don’t culturally isolate yourself…nor should you culturally indoctrinate yourself. This idea that schools are morally neutral is subtle and deadly.

I agree with your last paragraph, the solution to the “sheltered” homeschooling is getting them around other people. And when I said social I wasn’t referring ot pop culture but to their ability to interact with others in a normal manner.

“”What happens to the lost kids in public schools, and the other Christian kids in public schools, if the majority of Christians switch to homeschooling their children?””

A very simple answer: more souls will be won to Christ by a great revival that will sweep the land. In just a few short years Bible literacy in our churches will increase a hundred fold (or some significant number).

The best thing that could ever happen for our nation is to take back the care and nurture of our children’s hearts and minds. It will not decrease evangelism, but increase it.

“”What happens to the lost kids in public schools, and the other Christian kids in public schools, if the majority of Christians switch to homeschooling their children?””

Would you send your kids to the juvenile detention center to witness to the lost kids? Or would YOU go with them? Think of middle school as a juvenile detention center for pre teens.

Paul said, beware when helping YOU are not tempted. He said this to adults. How much more should we take that seriously for children/teens!

This may or may not be true, but the question should be asked is it true of all Public schools. I do not find it true in Oklahoma. And why is it Public schools and society as a whole are passing and implementing bullying laws when the Christian private schools did not do so first.

I went to a public college just a few years ago that implemented thinking for oneself on every matter. Papers were allowed and accepted to be written with a Christian viewpoint. Writing classes and all classes requiring papers to be written encouraged opposing views and were graded according to content, not the professors personal opinion. I came away with a 3.43 grade average in all my classes and I did not hide in my writing or my conviction as a Christian.

Think of middle school as a juvenile detention center for pre teens.

That’s a little over the top don’t you think Lydia? I think we should table the school discussion and get back to Les’ article as a whole which I thought had some good suggestions.

Debbie,

We have had an anti-bullying law since I began in Christian education 15 years ago–it’s called, The Bible. Our students either discipline their lives according to God’s Word, or they can find somewhere else to study.

Your statement is about as ridiculous as any I’ve ever heard. For one: Christian schools don’t have “laws,” other than the Law of God.

Good job at completely missing the point.

And Frank, your statement is ridiculous because private schools or most private schools do not follow through with discouraging bullying. What’s ridiculous is to condemn those who choose to send their kids to public school, making it sound worse than it is. As one commenter said, the fear seems to be worse than the reality. You have been told of many good experiences with public school. There are some fine public schools. We have wonderful public schools and colleges. I don’t condemn those who send their kids to private school. But this discussion wasn’t about public or private schools which get as many comments as the Halloween thread, the divorce thread, the Calvinism vs. Non-Calvinism threads. It’s just your opinion, it doesn’t matter which you choose for your child. It’s what you teach them at home that matters.

Parents will not be judged by God on whether they sent them to private or public school. Either choice is good, either choice is fine. I’m tired of this silly debate. And it is silly. Nonsense.

“And Frank, your statement is ridiculous because private schools or most private schools do not follow through with discouraging bullying”

Debbie, Do you honestly think parents are willing to scrape and sacrifice to send their kids to private school and then put up with bullying? They PAY to have their kids bullied?

This makes sense to you?

I will admit, I have a hard time understanding your comments and where you are coming from most of the time. You make declarative statements that do not seem to be thought through.

I do NOT think sending a child to public school is a sin. But I do know for a fact, the education is below par. Test scores across the board, prove it. I do not find that silly at all.

Yes Lydia, believe it or not Private schools have their share of problems too. I went to a private school for 4 years. There was bullying, and girls getting pregnant having to leave school, just as in public school. They are not perfect. The students who leave private school are not perfect either.

I am not saying that private schools are not good, but I am also saying that public is not a bad choice either. Like working moms(another comment subject grabber for the extreme at heart) it’s a choice. Period. We need to leave those who choose public school alone. Good grief, the moral of my comments are that you all are the extreme. And I’m so tired of the tall stories and the extreme Christians.

This thread is not a private school vs. public school thread yet it has been turned into one. That by the extremist who jump hard on one small point Les made. The discussion of church planting without outside funding got buried. A discussion that I believe is important. Church planting is what we do as Southern Baptists yet that discussion got blindsided by what I would consider extremists against the Public School system.

It is incredibly short-sighted to think that public schools are the way they are because people pulled their kids out. I am willing to venture that you don’t REALLY believe that either.

There are many ways to be involved and be around non-Christians than putting them in public school. The idea that they need to “learn how to be around lost people” is, again, short-sighted. They are around lost people all the time.

Maybe parents should try and open their eyes to the lost people with an eye toward evangelism rather than simply handing their kids over to said lost people to train them on how to think, believe, and act.

Just a thought.

I agree with the other points, but that one was not well thought out and/or completely naive.

I also have an M.Ed, I have 3 kids in Public education, some great Christian teachers I know of, and we are not only aware of what is going on in our schools, but are there often. Maybe it’s just in Iowa where I live (oh, and in Arizona where I know many, many Christian school teachers), but I don’t think it’s that bad? Do you recommend all Christians quit teaching school, or it’s ok for a Christian to be a school teacher, as long as we don’t send our kids there? I have heard all the propaganda from the Christians, but I haven’t seen much to justify it. My kids aren’t learning about “alternative lifestyles”, my 9 year old isn’t bringing home condoms, and I met the principle, and she doesn’t have horns or a tale.

I know many wonderful public school teachers and quite a few who are believers. They are stuck in a bad system and do the best they can.

I have never met a parent yet that thought “their” public school was bad in any way.

There are a ton of reasons why they are bad for children. Too many to go into here. But let me put it this way, the teachers are spending most of their time doing paperwork for the system and dealing with discipline problems. Much of the work students do is actually busy work.

If you have any way to do it, keep your children out of public middle school. It is like “Lord of the Flies”.

Here is an interesting note. US schools score very low globally in math. YET, we score highest in student self confidence that they are smart.

We are churning out students who are ignorant but think they are smart.

I agree Dan.

Great point, Frank. He clearly was making public school an integral part of his strategy…it wasn’t an “aside” he made it 1 of 6 main points.

You addressed some things here that I think are pretty critical.

“Les put that point as one of only six so I’m thinking he meant it to be a significant part of his strategy. To now see people complain that anybody even noticed, seems a bit strange to me.”

Great point. I think the complaints might be a little defensive. It’s one thing to identify some benefits to Christian students being in public schools. It’s altogether different to suggest that it’s better than home or private schools.

“What statistics do show without any reasonable challenge is that public school has a greater negative affect on Christian students than Christian students have on the public school.”

I think parents who have children in public schools will have an extremely difficult time accepting that. Unfortunately, the statistics aren’t completely necessary. The evidence is sometimes very obvious.

“…very little evangelism takes place in public schools.”

I don’t even know where to begin to comment on that statement. It’s such a painful truth. Sure, all of us have anecdotes of young evangelists, but they’re not the norm.

I think that if students were truly missional, God would be using them to overcome the affects of the legal restrictions in the schools. It’s unfortunate that the place they go to learn is supposed to be the place they go to teach.

Les,

Did you include point #2 just to get a response? There is really no other reason to include that point. There are many substitute ways to “be around lost people”. Why not simply encourage people to find ways to minister and be around lost people? That would serve the point and not be intentionally provocative for no good reason.

Jason,

My purpose of including point 2 is because it is a practical way to for the church planter to fund himself. I had no other ulterior motives in mind.

What surprises me is the reaction to such a suggestion. Is placing children in public school akin to heresy?

Les

I didn’t say that people were raging, I said the debate was raging. Not sure why you want to start being respectful now Frank.

I think it’s really funny that they have facts and figures, like my kids will suddenly become heathens. I am reading things like “evangelism rarely takes place in public schools”. I did it. Kaylee (my daughter) is doing it. I prayed every morning with a math teacher and a guidance counselor. I am passionate about helping students start Christian organizations on campus. Facts, figures, tests, results and angry people aside, public school doesn’t look that evil. Of course, maybe yours are.

And many others have done it Dan. It seems it’s anything to make a point, true or not.

Todd,

Exactly. I hope and pray that those who start churches are led by God to do so, not because they don’t want to pastor established churches.

Les

Is the actual topic church planting and not public school? I say “yes”, which is why it is an attempt to get back to the original topic. Since the discussion was more around public school than church planting, my comment was meant to try and drive discussion back to some of those issues.

Did I address an underlying issue of church planting and not the methodology posted? Yes, I did. But would you not agree that discussing the motivating factors of why someone would want to “plant a church with little or no outside funding” is important to a post about “how to plant a church with little or no outside funding”.

So, I reject your statement that my post was not about the topic.

As to my statement about lone-ranger church planters…I started off by saying “it has been my experience” that is true. It has. Is that always the case. No. Does that mean they will be unsuccessful? No. Does it mean they should NOT plant a church? Not necessarily.

I would love to see the evidence that disputes my claim. Seriously. I don’t think such a study exists or could even be compiled to show stats on this issue, so your reference to said evidence seems a little spurious.

As for your final point about biblical evidence for churches planting churches…I think the evidence suggests 2 things from the New Testament. One, that church planters were apostles or those directly commissioned by apostles to go to specific places and start churches because those apostles were busy elsewhere; and two, that the people that left to plant didn’t get the idea themselves but were sent out of a place where they were trained and taught and that those places/people that sent them supported them financially.

On the biblical analysis, I think we are in agreement — just using different language. I have no objection to your description, I just wouldn’t call it “churches planting churches”, that’s all. 🙂

As for your initial comment — addressing the issue at hand would mean evaluating the methodology at face value. Instead, you called into question the legitimacy of the model and those who would advocate its use by taking your negative experience and limited frame of reference and extrapolating it into a “general rule.”

My main issue is that I believe that Tent-making missionaries ought to be celebrated not treated as suspect or characterized by someone’s unsubstantiated assumptions.

Fair enough.

I, too, think we are probably in agreement on this issue.

It wasn’t my intent to malign said missionaries. I only bring up my personal experience with guys who were mistreated at churches and decided to plant a church for wrong reasons. I have known a lot of guys who did just that, though when talking to people they will talk a good game of “I have a heart for the people of city X” or “God called me to do this”.

As for the language of “churches planting churches” I would say that term describes what that would like now, not as descriptive of Acts. Since the Apostles are gone, the only way to emulate the model seen in Acts would be for churches to send missionaries to plant other churches.

Yes, I asked about the legitimacy of the model because that is an important point. It is a fair issue. If the model is illegitimate than the methodology is moot. I do NOT think the model is illegitimate, but I wanted it to be discussed, not assumed. That said, I think there are better models for planting.

Thanks for the clarification. 🙂
For what it’s worth, I’ve seen my share of “wrong reason” church plants too, but most Church Planters I know plant out of a passion for evangelism and the need for gospel churches.

God’s blessings to you as you serve Him!
— Todd

I think you’ve made a terrific point here.

Jason,

In your case and many others I’m sure the motivation isn’t cultural isolation, but in more cases than not it’s the motivation for homeschooling families where I live. Even if the parents would disagree with that assessment it’s what happens. Homeschooled kids where I live are culturally isolated and usually end up going wild when confronted with the real world.

And the idea that all kids in public school being traumatized and corrupted is a stereotype? Why is one ok and the other isn’t?

Justin, that may be the case where you live, I’ll have to take your word for it.

Nationally over a period of many decades now, the evidence is very clear: homeschoolers excel in life. Many colleges actively seek them out because they excel. Homeschoolers score 2 to 3 times higher on standardized test to get into college.

Our private school has a home school division and these kids and young people are excellent, well-adjusted citizens.

As I said, your experience is what it is and I won’t dispute that, but the evidence greatly points to your sample as being outside the norm.

Jeff (re:military)

Or maybe it is because the military is run by DC bureaucrats who have an agenda in promoting government-run education. The government’s opposition to home-education is well-documented – so I see no shock in any decision like that.

That may be true.

Of course the statistical studies show that kids who are educated at home stay in the faith at a MUCH higher rate than those who do not. See “Soul Searching”. I also believe Lifeway Research has done studies on this as well.

But there is a legit possibility that kids will leave home after home school and be unprepared for the world. I would be willing to bet that if those same kids went to public school, the same problems would have arisen, only earlier. But just because some kids “go wild” does not mean that you throw them into a school and hope for the best.

If a family has no other option but public school, I understand. But those families need to work extra hard in family discipleship to teach their kids and undo the things they are taught (formally and informally) at public school. That usually does not happen.

There is a reason we are losing between 70-88% of our “churched kids” by the end of their freshman year of college. I don’t think that reason is home school.

The idea of godly home education is not just “doing schoolwork at home”…it is about rigorous discipleship that includes “schoolwork”. Parents that fail to disciple their kids, regardless of the location they receive schooling, will see their kids “go wild” more often than not. That said, parents must see their job of discipleship includes their education or they severely hurt themselves and limit their influence.

I agree the reason we lose kids isn’t home school. Mark Hall of Casting Crowns wrote a book called “Your Own Jesus”. i think the problem with kids leaving is that they never develop a faith of their own and just go to church because it’s what’s expected of them or their parents take them.

And Jeff & Frank I understand that my sample is small, just sharing my view from what I’ve seen. I think there definitely is a time and place for homeschooling, and a right and wrong way to do it. I guess my experience has just been with more families that have done it wrong than with those that got it right.

I imagine he mentioned it because it is the free option. It is difficult to plant a church without significant financial support if your kids are in private school or your wife is staying home to home school them. Trust me on this, I am planting a church with little funding because God has not impressed upon me the need to beg for money.

Public schools will not destroy your children if they are trained up in the way they should go.

Kirby,

You wrote, “I am planting a church with little funding because God has not impressed upon me the need to beg for money.”

Amen, brother! My church plant is using a portion of our giving to assist other new church plants who receive little or no funding. Email me at lespuryear AT hotmail.com and tell me a bit about your new church.

Blessings!

Les

Jeff,

Point two is vital if both parents work in a secular job. That’s why I included it. It’s hard to homeschool your kids when both parents work. It’s not impossible, but it’s gott abe hard. 🙂

Les

Sorry, I meant to say “gotta be”.

Les

Question to Jeff and others advocating homeschooling: does it not presuppose first that there is one stay-at-home parent, and second that the stay-at-home parent has the education and more importantly the temperment and gifts/talents to be a teacher? If so: not everyone does!

I have temperment and the gifts to teach, and almost became a teacher myself. However, I worked at secular employment, then went to seminary, then pastored full-time churches, so I never had the luxury of being stay-at-home. And although my wife was stay-at-home, at least until our son was in high school and our daughter in middle school, she simply does not have the temperment, gifts, or talents to teach. In situations where the presuppositions of being financially able to have a stay-at-home parent and that parent being able to effectively teach are not met, what alternative is there to public school, other than an often cost-prohibitive private school (where there are often various problems themselves)?

John

All right Jeff, that is well said. If you are able and willing to do computer-based learning, I suppose that will work in those households where the stay-at-home parent lacks the wherewithal to teach. Frankly, I have some concerns about computer-based teaching; for the way I learn, and many others, there is no substitute for eyeball-to-eyeball, personal contact and/or peer learning. But again, there are going to be drawbacks to any form of education; sometimes it comes down to learning or teaching style, and sometimes it comes down to selecting the lessor of two “evils.”

You state, “In my experience, people generally find a way to do those things that they really want to do. For example, if parents decide to send kids to a private school, they come up with amazing ways to find the money.” I generally agree with your major premise–we see that all too often in church, where someone cannot “afford” to tithe, but they can afford to make payments on a $20,000 boat they put in the water maybe half a dozen times a year. But relative to the minor premise, I think back to my first pastorate, 1986-1990. They insisted they were a full time church, and paid me $18,000 a year–including salary, housing expenses, insurance, and every pen and paper clip I used, everything except $33 a month to the old SBC Annuity Board. It was in a depressed county where there were few jobs available and the population had decreased from 34,000 to 16,000 over the previous 30 years. The county’s only private “Christian” school had been created in the 1960s as an alternative to integrated public schools. Even if that had appealed to my wife and I, there is no way on my salary alone (and no job was available to her) we could have afforded $10,000 a year per child (we had two) for private school, no matter how creative we might have gotten. While there are middle class earners for whom your conclusion no doubt apply, it does not work at all for those in the lower end of the wage scale. In fact, I dare say that is a presupposition for the whole argument in favor of private schools, and somewhat even for homeschooling. Both are middle class, perhaps upper middle class and above, folks. What about those financially below?

John

“”Even if that had appealed to my wife and I, there is no way on my salary alone (and no job was available to her) we could have afforded $10,000 a year per child (we had two) for private school, no matter how creative we might have gotten””

John, I understand your concerns, but it does not have to be that way. Our church has a private school (32 years). We are in one of the richest towns in the US. One of the wealthiest Christian schools in the US is just down the street: $24000 per year per child.

Our school provides generous scholarships through the sacrificial giving of our church. In 32 years no child that has applied has been turned away because of finances.

We have a commitment to providing an academically superior Christian education to any child that wants one and is willing to live good and work hard.

If more churches would provide this type of ministry to children, we’d turn America around in very short order.

Jeff,

I can’t argue with you there. I’ll give you a big “AMEN.”

Les

Jeff & Frank, my financial concerns were directed toward children attending private schools, not homeschooling. As I said, Jeff answered that objection well. My remaining objection is the contention that people can “always” or even “usually” overcome financial hurtles to send their kids to private schools if they are just creative enough. Where we were at 1986-90 did not offer scholarships. It was cash on the barrelhead, up front. Neither us nor others below the povertyline (yes, Jeff, we were too; in fact, our kids qualified for free lunches at school–which when I mentioned it to a deacon, he got mad and said he’d better not ever hear of our kids accepting it, but they didn’t even consider raising the salary) had a snowball’s chance in August of sending our kids there. If private schools where you are have a different philosophy, more power to them; but these did not. Many private schools were created with a separation of “classes” intended. Some moved past it, but I suggest others have not, which is where my concern lies. On the whole however, I do not have a problem with public schools. You generally find what you are looking for: look for education happening in a public school, and you find it; look for an anti-Christian slant, and you will find it.

John

Oh JEFF, your dear wife DOES work, God bless her. Just not outside the home.

🙂

PS — One thing BDW’s post points out is something many people do not realize. Most traditional Christian private schools use the government model, including at times the same textbooks.

As BDW correctly points out in my opinion, those schools are little to no improvement over public schools.

Jason: “The vast majority of school teachers are not believers. That should be pretty widely accepted.” I guess that depends on where you’re from. I grew up in south Georgia. The majority of my teachers were believers. As far as values, what they taught, I and others recognized as Christian values. They certainly weren’t promoting values incompatible with a Christian lifestyle. Frank L: “First, your anecdote about carnal private Christian schools is just an anecdote and does not relieve us of our responsibilities in regard to educating our children.” And all anyone – including yourself – has to offer is anecdotes. There’s good schools and bad schools. I agree with that. I’m sure you also agree that we’re all sinners living in a sinful world. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that private school kids are drinking, smoking and having sex just like public school kids. Frank L: “Jason’s characterization seems closer to reality than BDW’s based upon my research and experience.” Again, you have your anecdotes, I have mine. Would you agree that perhaps people enjoy different experiences with public school education depending on where they live? I’m going to guess that my experience in public school in the rural heart of the Bible Belt might be a little different than someone elsewhere in say California or a more pluralistic large city. You offered your example of Republicans being maligned. My yearbook quote was “Enjoying Georgia? Thank a Democrat” because there were so few Democrats in my school. Different experiences obviously. I do find this public school debate interesting. I think it’s safe to say that those who are anti-public school and anti- “traditional Christian private schools” – hold views that are at odds with the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists who do send their kids to public schools as well as those who send their kids to the traditional Christian private academies that exist throughout the South. I’m gonna guess too that the majority of Southern Baptist female pewsitters do hold jobs outside the home. And only a small minority of Southern Baptist women choose to homeschool their kids. Yet, I suspect the number of Southern Baptist clergy who homeschool, the number of Southern Baptist pastor’s wives who don’t work, etc. is much higher than that of the laity. So when Southern Baptist leaders call for an exodus from the public school system, that’s not going to “connect”… Read more »

I believe that even teachers who are believers are highly limited in what they are allowed to say and do – they are given curriculum, they are given books, they are given rules, they must do certain things. Even in the South. Sure, there are some school districts better than others, but all are working under certain constraints. As a teacher what it’s like to be a Christian in that environment. It’s tough. I feel for the situation they are in, tough deal for them.

I would also offer up the fact that it isn’t simply the teachers, but also the fellow students and the environment as a whole that impacts and teaches kids. It is naive to throw a kid into the lion’s den and hope he survives like Daniel. Do kids make it out alive? of course they do. I did. But to think we were not impacted by what we were taught is simply ignorant. We were. Greatly! Moreover, we all know kids we went to church with that went to school with us and did not survive…those numbers dwarf the survival rate.

As for calling for an exodus…I need to think about that for a bit.

Frank, we use textbooks, but not from the likes of Houghton-Mifflin, Harcourt, and other secular publishes. I have seen that they are guilty of sending all the wrong messages to kids. The very first story in Houghton Mifflins’s Basal Reader is called “Cliffhanger”. It’s the story of a little boy and his dog. What could be wrong with that? Plentry! A violent thunder storm comes upon them and the child’s father tells him to go in the house and stay there. A thing any prudent parent would do. OH…. but not this little boy, his dog is up on cliff and can’t get down, so the child disobeys his father and saves the day and his dog. Most kids see this little boy as a hero. What’s the hidden message?

We do have one exception to our policy when it comes to math. We use Saxon math and in my opinion, it can’t be beat.

Secular textbooks are loaded with bias and I won’t use them. Since I’m the boss, I get to make the rules. I do consult with my teachers, and my Pastor, but so far, so good. I might add the congregation is very willing to support us so that the expense is minimized. It takes a servants heart to make sure that our children get the best educational materials. My Pastor has a vision of raising up Godly children. It makes all the difference.

We have turned away students, but not for the lack of finances. I know that teachers can’t adequately teach students in overpopulated classrooms. I won’t budge on that. When we get enough requests at a certain grade level, then we hire a new teacher. We have found that it is better to have a solid vision in the beginning instead of putting out fires.

I have not regretted leaving the public schools. God was at work in my life, and for once, I listened.

God Bless

Chief, we have designed a program that is not dependent upon enough kids for a class. Because our approach abandons not only the public school message, but the public school model (a sage on the stage) we can have a hundred third graders or one third grader. We can, and do, fluctuate from year to year.

Not only that, we begin using iPads in our Pre-K curriculum and throughout. Our Pre-K’ers, with just minimal instruction are teaching themselves to read.

Two years ago we took a struggling student in public school and he will graduate next month, a year ahead. He also was a straight A student in Latin, and all his standardized test scores were post high school.

I say that because many people do not really know what can be done if you scrap all the pre-conditioning and build a program from what God’s Word teaches.

Also, because of our unique modular approach our students have almost one-on-one access to qualified teachers. One of our teachers is a doctor who gave up his practice to come work for us.

So, I just hope the positive result from this thread will be two-fold: 1) people will start churches trusting God to provide; and 2) parents will provide a godly education trusting God to provide.

Les,

You’re right, we should not base our methods on research data. At the same time, as we seek wisdom and counsel, research data can provide useful information that helps us as we make our decisions.

As for bi-vocational planting, it is certainly one important biblical
model, but not “the” biblical model.

Paul’s policy was to not that he be self-supporting, but that he not receive support from those to whom he was ministering (this seems to be a practical and contextual decision – see 1 Cor 9; and the opposite of the Lord’s instructions to the 12 and 72 when he sent them out – see Matt 10:10-11; Luke 10:7).
At many times, but not all, Paul supported Himself through tent-making. At most points in his ministry, he received some level of outside support, sometimes being fully supported by sending churches and even making appeals for such support (see, e.g., 2 Cor 11:8-9; Phil 4:14-18; Rom 15:24; 1 Cor 16:6; cf. 3 John 1:5-8). Further, we must surely factor in the fact that Paul defended the right of gospel ministers to make their living from the gospel (Gal 6:6; 1 Cor 9:9-14; 1 Tim 5:17-18).

So, we should indeed affirm and support tent-making ministry. We should certainly consider tent-making a viable option for planting churches. I believe we err, however, if we label tent-making “the” biblical model and make it a mandate for all church planting.

Blessings,
Todd

Todd,

I agree that it should not be a mandate for church planting.

Les

“Public schools are without any doubt, a tool of the government indoctrinating childen.”

I have read something about this concerning decisions made and implemented by the Texas School Board. It was pretty shocking.

Christiane, I’ve not read that article but if you can post it, I will read it through. Texas is a unique state that holds some sway over all of the textbooks that are sold to the entire country. The three top schoolbook publishers are: Houghton-Mifflin, Harcourt-Brace, and McGraw-Hill ( no not Tim and Faith). The people sitting on the Texas board are always subject to the ebbs and flows of political thought. Right now we have more conservative members and they have mandated that textbooks contain less bias, and to produce books that are not full of revisionist history. But it’s always a struggle. If the liberals have more votes we get the opposite result. Most school districts end up buying from the publisher who will provide the most bang for the buck. They pretend to do otherwise, but every teacher who has been teaching long enough knows that this is sleight of hand tactic. In my state, the Board of Education requires all schools to display the materials that are being considered for a district purchase to the public. It usually lasts 30-45 days. We put the materials out and parents may take as long as they wish to look them over to evaluate the content. In reality, even though we notify the parents, we usually have about 30 people stop to look at the materials. The parents of the other 400 children can’t be bothered to take the time. But they sure complain if they don’t like what’s in them, after the fact. Districts expect a major textbook purchase to last for 7 years. Teachers review the books, offer their comments are required to teach a few lessons out of the books before they are purchased. It’s a waste of time, because again, they are going to buy what is most cost effective. As you can see, the entire process is seriously flawed and is dishonest. I wanted to tell you that Catholic schools perform much better than public schools when it comes to standardized testing. I was recruited by the Phoenix Diocese to teach in their schools. They were very impressive. I was especially impressed by the orderliness of the schools I visited. But in my heart, I knew I couldn’t do it. I would have not been required to answer questions on the faith, but I knew it would never work. Bishop Olmstead is a wonderful… Read more »

Hi KATIE,

I have taught sixth, seventh, and eighth grade in Catholic schools in New Jersey. Hardest work I ever did was trying to keep up with the nuns’ standards. Wow.

I agree. The students I taught were very well grounded in proper basics for their class levels. Rigorous curriculum, and maximum time ‘on task’ for both reading and mathematics.
They LEARNED. !!!!!!

I loved it. I will always be grateful to the great teaching order of the Sisters of St. Lucy Filipini (Morristown), who guided me professionally.
What I learned from them later benefitted my students in the inner city schools.

Sorry, DAVID.

As a retired public-school teacher, I was impressed with Katie’s very honest sentence. We were forced to teach a fairly complex civics and economics curriculum content to our sixth-graders, at the command of OUR state board of education. Let’s put it this way: we tried valiantly to do our best. Politics and education don’t always serve children’s needs, when the decision-making does not include individuals who aren’t knowledgeable about child development and learning.

I’ll stop now.
Sorry.
(fascinating subject for me, you know)
Sorry.

Dave,

I shall leave this thread so as not to cause any hurt feelings. It’s never my intention to do that. But you have at least three people posting here who have had significant experience in the public schools and we earnestly think that public schools are not healthy places for our children.

I personally encourage Les on his plan, but not if includes subjecting children to public schools.

Thanks for your patience.

Jason,

One more thing. What would you substitute for point #2? That point addresses the funding issue of the family. How would you do it?

Thanks.

Les

Les, There is no doubt that a pastor planting a church with no outside funding is in a tough spot financially. If the focus is on how to raise money through a two income family, then you have to be creative on earning money. A lot would depend on the family situation (age of kids). I knew a couple that both worked and sent their 2 kids to daycare, but the cost of daycare was almost the wife’s entire salary. If your kids are grown, this isn’t an issue, right? If your kids are a bit older, them maybe a part time job can be worked out by the wife, maybe even full-time depending on the age of the kids. Of course there could be an option for Christian schools. Lots of options available other than just sending them to public school and mom getting a full-time job. Regardless of that, priorities must be established. If people are convinced they need to plant a church and convinced they need to educate their children at home, then they need to figure out which is more important. maybe they need to delay planting until they can establish a home situation where priorities stay in line and they can manage it. You cannot sacrifice home for the sake of church. I think we all agree on that point. My contention was less about the finances, and more about your description of public school as a means of teaching your wife and kids to share the Gospel and provide them with opportunities. You didn’t mention finances in your support statements, only evangelism. My point is that there are MANY ways to evangelize kids in public schools without becoming a public school student. (Same philosophy as evangelizing drunks, prostitutes, coaches, engineers, bus drivers, etc – you don’t need to join them to reach them. right?) You have neighbors you can reach. You have sports and other activities (boy scouts, for one) where your kids are around unbelievers. Honestly, with my wife not working a job she is more free to share the Gospel with our neighbors, with the women at the gym, etc. I think we need to broaden our perspective on what and where we can evangelize. To be honest, some jobs hinder evangelism because of office policy…and then after a long day of work, you come home too tired to do anything else.… Read more »

Jason,

Yes, that helps. Thanks.

Les

If I were to have a substitute for #2, it would be to learn to live on one income. Just be content with a lower standard of living. That indeed seems to be Pauline 🙂

That’s a good point too.

“”they are doing fine””

Les, I appreciate your graciousness receiving criticism, though I hope I have not been “critical” of you and what I perceive is the intent of your heart.

I hear the above argument all the time from people. My question always is: “how do you know they are doing fine?” or the corollary, how would they be doing if they had spent from 2 years old through high school in a dynamic Christian school that is academically superior?

I guess using most criteria, I’m “doing fine.” What I never will know is how much more devoted and effective I’d be in life as a believer if I had gone to a dynamically Christian, academically superior private school or homeschool.

10 years ago before I started research in Christian education, I would have (and did) feel the same way as you feel — what’s the big deal with point #2. I don’t see it as incidental anymore.

But, please realize that I am not being “critical” of you. I appreciate your spirit and hope that a different perspective on point #2 might make a good strategy even better.

I would point you to google, Tucson Fellowship of the Cross, to see an entire church-planting movement that is seeking to do exactly what you outline above. The pastor of this unique church plant is a long-time friend of mine. I am helping him help lay men do just what you outline above.

God bless you, and thank you for your post.

Frank L,

When I said they are “doing fine,” I mean they are well-adjusted, strong Christians serving the Lord where they are. I will take a look at the Tucson Fellowship that you mentioned. I think we can all learn from each other how to plant churches with little or no funding.

Les

Les, A good place to find some reliable information is the Home School Defense League. While their primary focus is to assist homeschoolers being assaulted by individual states, they also have information about educational trends. Here is a sampling: Judge Orders 3-Year-Old into Day Care for “Socialization” HSLDA of Canada reports a shocking case where a 3-year-old was ordered into day care for “socialization.” They are appealing on behalf of the homeschooling family whose children were all forced to attend public school programs for socialization. (HSLDA) More >> School District Says Parent Needs License To Homeschool HSLDA successfully intervened on behalf of a family who were being asked to obtain a license to operate a homeschool—something North Carolina law does not require. (HSLDA) More >> Homeschooling for Sick Children—HSLDA Defends It HSLDA intervened on behalf of two families who endured bureaucratic interference when they decided to homeschool children with chronic illnesses. (HSLDA) More >> HSLDA Fights for Homeschooled Military Enlistees HSLDA helped persuade Pentagon officials to extend a program that places homeschool recruits in the military’s highest enlistment option. (HSLDA) More >> Umbrella Diplomas Problematic for Maryland Law Enforcement Jobs Despite a lengthy discussion with an HSLDA attorney, Baltimore County Police refused to accept as valid a homeschool graduate’s umbrella program diploma. (HSLDA) More >> Who Should Issue the Diploma? As graduation season approaches, HSLDA wishes to remind homeschooling parents they can rest assured concerning the validity of the diplomas they issue their students. (HSLDA) More >> Florida Joins States Calling for Parental Rights Amendment Florida has become the fifth state to pass a resolution calling on the U.S. Congress to send the Parental Rights Amendment to the U.S. Constitution to the states for ratification. (HSLDA) More >> Judge’s Order Seeking Homeschooler Identities Overruled The Mississippi Supreme Court has vacated a judge’s order which sought the names and addresses of homeschoolers in a certain district. The victory protects home educators from the flagrant misuse of judicial power. (HSLDA) More >> Cornell University Asks for GED or State-Approved Diploma When a longtime member family had a college question the validity of the diploma they issued their daughter, HSLDA vouched for them by pointing to the law. (HSLDA) More >> German Authorities Threaten Homeschool Family A German judge recognized that homeschooling provides quality education, but still denied a family permission to teach their children at home. (HSLDA) More >> Family Gets a… Read more »

Chief Katie,

Thanks for the information. I am pretty well-acquainted with the homeschool movement. While I pastored my former church, we began hosting a homeschool co-op on Fridays. They were allowed to use our building for their Friday schooling.

I have a great deal of respect for parents who homeschool their children. It is hard work and takes a great deal of effort. I think homeschooling is a viable option and should be left alone by the government.

Les

Ha, ha, guys. I’ve never heard those before.

Les

I always refer to your posts as “Miller Lites”.

Even better…Miller Genuine Drafts. No fake Dave Miller writings here!

Thanks for letting me post this, Les. It has been a lively (if perhaps somewhat sideways) discussion.

Dave, I know that a few comments fall into most threads that just beat an old drum.

But blogs are like coffee-house conversations it seems to me. Someone brings up an topic and someone responds that sparks another comment that leads to a slightly different place.

I think that is how new ideas develop. So, I appreciate the very open (though I agree sometimes scattered) discussion of this blog.

It’s more like a meandering river than a rocket launch.

Could one become a sovereign citizen and do all that you said while staying in the USA?

BTW, Dan, you’re obviously an Obama government blogger plant put in place by Bush.