I know, we don’t have one and don’t want one. We believe in soul competency and the priesthood of the believers. But the idea of having unfettered power to implement my ideas has its appeal. Here are some things I would do if I had papal power for a while. You can add your papal bull (sorry, I couldn’t resist that bit of Iowa corn) in the comments below. Or you can describe your pleasure that I, in fact, have no power.
1) I would change the way we do seminary edumacation. I’ve thought a lot about this one. I’ve seen young whippersnappers come out of seminaries with heads full of unrealistic notions of pastoral ministry. Actually, I think our recent seminary grads are amazingly adept at theology. But seminary can prepare you for blogging, but it cannot prepare you for ministry.
Here’s why Pope Dave I would do. Seminaries would be four year events, but only 2 of those years would be on site. Young skulls full of mush would go to Louisville or Ft. Worth or wherever, have their brains opened and as much knowledge dumped in there in two years as possible. Then, they idealistic whippersnappers would be sent out as interns in churches around the country to actually work in ministry. They would shadow pastors, be asked to do actual ministry and serve a church for two full years.
You don’t get to be a doctor by graduating med school. You have to do an internship. In Iowa, I’ve seen a lot of recent seminary graduates put into ministries with almost no experience. Some have worked out. Many have floundered and failed.
2) I would order us not to count any numbers but offerings for 5 years. Yes, numbers matter, but not as much as we seem to think they do. We have to count offerings – there are laws and fiscal integrity is a spiritual issue. But Why does it matter if we had 250 or 260 last Sunday? Let’s just do the ministry and not worry about the numbers, for a time.
I know what some of you will say. I’ve heard it all before. I understand your point about the importance of numbers. But let’s work on doing it right, building the quality of our ministries and not worry about numbers. There is always a danger, a tendency when we are so statistically-based and motivated, that we would do what builds numbers and not what builds the Kingdom.
3) I would …okay, you tell me.
I have to go visit a dying member and maybe I will think of something else why I am gone. You can add your own ideas or analyse mine. The Yankees don’t play today – something about some rain showers on the east coast. So, I’ve got time to discuss.
I like the answer to #1. It would be much like the 2+2 international church planting degrees that have been offered for years, just geared for stateside deployment. Thinking back on my own experience, however, I think most of the guys I went through seminary with we’re involved in ministry at least at some level during their enrollment.
I’d modify #1 to include having a seasoned pastor supervise/mentor new pastors in small churches where he’s it. The churches make an agreement with the seminary for pastoral help and the mentor is available to help sort out major conflicts and meet with the pastor once a month or so, but he’s learning to stand on his own two feet.
No amount of working with anyone prepares you for the isolation of being the only pastor in a 15 mile radius, where your only interaction is long distance.
I think the problem with counting the numbers lies not in the counting, but in not acting on what they reveal. If you’re having 750 members attend, out of 2,750, somebody needs to be changing SOMEthing, and you really should count to have a handle on that.
But the way it is, counting is useless, so I do concur in that respect.
Dave, I think I know what you mean about not counting numbers. But, let me give a different scenario to complement Bob’s. What if you had a healthy church that was running 300 in worship on a Sunday morning. Because of pastoral leadership and other issues, the church’s attendance began to drop. Now, four years later, a handful of people are left and the one of the community’s pillar churches will cease to exist, both in name and in location. At some point, the numbers could have told the congregation that something unhealthy was happening in their midst, but now… Read more »
No desire to be argumentative – I see your point. But would you really need weekly counts to figure out that something was wrong in the scenario you mentioned?
Can I get my legal release in arrears?
Dave, Can I answer your questions like a lawyer? It depends 🙂 Would you NEED the weekly counts? Not necessarily, but these counts sometimes help to put things into perspective. Just like with our money at the end of the month. We thought we had more, but where did it go. Attendance counts, over time, can give a good overview of trends — either positive or negative. Maybe no one else has had this happen, but I’ve used church attendance over a 6-9 month period to confirm what I thought I was sensing and seeing happen. Numbers are not a… Read more »
Having been the youth minister in the church that was crashing from 200 down to 65, even having the numbers doesn’t help if the pastor refuses to acknowledge them. If every time someone highlights the declining attendance and giving, the pastor says “God is purging out the uncommitted,” the numbers don’t help.
All the numbers did was convince 3 of the deacons to leave.
Doug, I’m afraid you are right about the pastor and whether or not he even acknowledges that the numbers are going south. Unfortunately, the quote you put in a hypothetical pastor’s mouth, “God is purging out the uncommitted,” is, sadly, far a hypothetical in Southern Baptist life. There maybe legitimate reasons why the numbers would plummet from 200 to 65, but I am not a fan of this type of addition by substraction. More often than not, it becomes subtraction by subtraction. These kind of pastors do great damage to the Kingdom and to churches that they touch. If a… Read more »
Dave wrote:
“But seminary can prepare you for blogging, but it cannot prepare you for ministry.”
Wow.
Hey, I was blogging years before I started seminary.
I thought all I needed to blog was a pair of bunny slippers and an axe to grind?
And a basement, your mom’s, preferably.
Don’t forget the housecoat!
and the bunny slippers
Drat. Down here in the South, there ain’t many basements. Mom definitely doesn’t have one!
If I were pope, churches that were not complimentarian and did not affirm verbal, plenary inspiration and inerrancy (Chicago Statement) would be gone along with any churches that did not affirm what the Bible clearly teaches about human sexuality (that the only way sex is not a sin is when it is between a married man and his own wife). Also, any churches that did not teach that conscious faith in Christ and repentance from sin was necessary for salvation would be shown the door (i.e. Muslims do not go to heaven on account of their sincere faith in islam).… Read more »
+1000 times infinity. Well, maybe not infinity. Infinity minus 1. But still a whole lot!
I think that Howell just made me a legal Pope of sorts!
“Skulls of Mush” is acceptable and preferable to other phrases.
If I were the Pope, in the past I would have required that all communications, written and oral, be clear and straight forward.
If that had been the rule, the CR would have taken place in 1950, would have resulted in much less acrimony and the loss of very few Baptists.
In the present, I would require a little more kindness and intelligence in all communications. A little more “Heart” and “Smart”.
If that had been the rule, the CR would have taken place in 1950, would have resulted in much less acrimony and the loss of very few Baptists.
Exactly. If the seminary teachers and denomonational employees had been forced to admit what they really believed (i.e. that Christ wasn’t born of a virgin, Genesis is just make believe, etc) the people in the pew wouldn’t have tolerated them as long as they did.
Please leave the CR out of this one, it is over and rehashing does absolutely no good.
CR was a reality that shaped the SBC today – and I’m thankful that it did. Not saying it was perfect, but it was needed and successful.
Dave:
I will agree that it was needed in a small way, but beyond that it was and is a disaster.
It was BEYOND needed. I for one wish that it had gone further but I’m thankful it went as far as it did.
Please direct complaints to davemillerisajerk@hotmail.com and I will respond.
There’s a real need to address these issues, especially with the folks that go straight from college to seminary to pastoring a church. But I will point out that: 1.) Some of us have been pastoring for years without a degree. I’d be pretty whiny if I had to follow someone around for 2 more years without really preaching or any sense of permanence in ministry for those 2 years. 2.) There are late-comers to the ministry. While a person may be late to garner the academics or even to heed the call, he should have been growing in spiritual… Read more »
What about flipping it… requiring at least 2 years of ministerial experience (actual position, internship, or missionary work) before seminary education?
Not a bad thought. I’m with the idea of mixing the school room with getting the hands truly dirty in the work—I think we need a level of flexibility since there is a wide range of folks coming into seminary and towards the ministry.
You’d need to read the earlier post that cautioned churches who want seminary grads as pastors and nothing less. Too many churches would balk at the intern’s involvement without prior seminary.
If I were Pope of the SBC 1.) I would make seminary more affordable for students. With the millions of dollars going to support the schools it is rediculous that a young preacher could go to secular university cheaper than seminary. 2.) I would give more money to actual missionaries and get rid of the hundreds of employees of the convention not directly in support of missions. People talk about too many government employees but we have the secretary to the administrative assistant to the spiritual awakening of the polar bear. Really the SBC could get by with a small… Read more »
I’m curious what you’re referring to here. I started state-ran universtiy in state and finished out of state, so I had both sides of that tuition spectrum.
As an SBCer going to an SBC seminary, it was cheaper than both… tuition at Southern ran me less than half of tuition at my in-state school.
Really what state are you from? Because I’ll guarantee you in Oklahoma you can go to state university cheaper than you can go to seminary. My daughter attends a state university here in Oklahoma and we pay $117/hour, at SW seminary after the SBC scholarship you pay $187/hour.
Missouri. Did my first two years @ the University of Missouri-Rolla (now the Missouri School of Science and Technology). I don’t know what my per hour was, but my semester tuition cost was ~$5000. My “less than half” statement is wrong come to think of it, but “right about half” is right. My per semester at SBTS was right around $2500. Now my out of state for finishing college was the U. of Oklahoma. I don’t remember what their in-state cost was, but I do remember being surprised that it wasn’t outrageously high (in fact it was about $4000 more… Read more »
John,
Are you comparing tuition for Master’s level classes?
I looked at the OU website, and their in-state tuition for undergrad is about $269, and for grad-level classes it is $310. (Non-resident Master’s students pay $760)
http://bursar.ou.edu/tuition_fees.cfm
At SBC schools, for Master’s degree classes (SBC members):
SBTS = $219
SWBTS = $222
SEBTS = $218
Compare to:
Trinity = $590
Fuller = $350
Dallas = $415
RTS = $405
*All of these numbers are “per credit hour”
Dave, I like your #2, but not your #1. I agree the up and coming pastors need practicum, but the LAST thing we need to do is to decrease the total amount of theological education. Instead, I would suggest this; do away with residential Seminary as much as possible, and instead require sponsoring/ordaining churches to provide internships for the people in whom they have recognized a call to the ministry. Then have a full four year internship, right where they are, while taking their Seminary classes via distance education. There is no class with today’s technology, that cannot be successfully… Read more »
It is my understand that accreditation practices for universities and seminaries require that students be physically on campus for a certain number of hours, so an entire degree done online is not practical. As well, seminaries embrace online education while still treasuring the personal interaction between professors and students.
An off campus degree just isn’t going to happen.
ATS and most regional agencies require 50% for an M.Div.
For a few other degree programs, it can be 100% online. I think Midwestern in KC has one and Gordon-Conwell has one.
The personal interaction is the missing piece. That’s the hole that needs filled.
The Regional Accrediting agencies do not require on campus classes. You can earn an M.Div. 100 percent online (Liberty, for example, is accredited by the Southern Association). ATS is a ridiculous and antiquated agency, that the SBC needs to distance itself from (read, disassociate with). It is preposterous to subject yourself to an accrediting agency for religious universities, that accredits everything from Catholic to Buddhist schools. Regional Accreditation is the “Gold Standard” in Higher Ed. anyway. Allowing a person to be trained by their ordaining church certainly seems to be the biblical model…which should be what we are most concerned… Read more »
I would think most people would recognize also that there is a vast difference between the quality of education that one gets at Liberty’s online seminary and on-campus at Southern/Southeastern/Southwestern.
There is a reason ATS holds the standard they do for distance education.
Jason, What difference would that be? I have taken classes from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, and have an M. Div. from Liberty: if anything, my classes from Liberty were harder. There were more reading requirements, more research and writing assignments, etc. With my classes at NOBTS, I received very little “class interaction” and almost none that was related to the subject matter. NOBTS also had Discussion Boards, even one class that had graded discussion boards, for which everyone in the class received an automatic 100 just for making any sort of post. Compare that to Liberty, where my argumentation… Read more »
To be fair, I said Southern/Southeastern/Southwestern…not “the big 6”. I think there is a big drop off, but perhaps that is a discussion for another day. I think the main reason for a qualitative difference is faculty. I am sure the guys at Liberty are great, but there is a marked difference in quality of profs at the big 3 (even the big 6) over Liberty. I think the difference in day in-day out interaction is huge. Of course people make of it what they will, but if your desire is to get to know profs and interact on these… Read more »
Jason, First, I understand that you were speaking of Southwestern/Southern, but in my post that you were responding to, I referenced ATS accreditation. NOBTS is ATS accredited. My point was, there is not some “vast gulf” between regional accreditation and ATS. In fact, Regional accreditation is the Gold Standard, that is accepted across the board. As far as the faculty being the “qualitative difference,” that is just patently false. Not only are the Professors at Liberty almost all from top seminaries (such as Gary Yates from Dallas Theological Seminary), even the adjunct professors are highly qualified (my Old Testament adjunct… Read more »
When I went to seminary, it was 10 times cheaper than college. I keep reading that seminary is expensive so I check it out at SWBTS it is 187 an hour. Ouachita Baptist University (this is for an undergrad degree) is 588 an hour, and at UCA in Arkansas tuition is 179 an hour.) The state school is cheaper but not by much. So how why are we complaining about it.
What I said was that seminary should not be more expensive than secular university. Our seminaries are funded by millions of dollars of SBC money and yet our preachers have to pay more than going to public universities. That should not be.
I don’t know what a state school in Texas costs these days for a graduate degree for a resident, but I just paid $3,300 for a single semester (16 hours) at Southwestern. Since it should take 6 semesters at this rate (roughly), then that works out to $19,800 for tuition and fees. Add in books and you’ll come out to about $21,600 for a graduate degree.
Sounds like Southwestern offers a good deal. Baylor’s Truett Seminary is $205 for Baptist students and $471 for non-Baptists in the MDiv program. Tuition gets pricey $582 and $682 respectively for the MTS program.
Baylor undergraduate tuition is around $1275 per hour including the student fee. For comparison’s sake, Texas A&M is $561 per hour for Texans and the local community college here in Waco is $117 per hour for Texans.
I show you that they are not really more expensive.
One of my main issues with our seminaries is that as we move into more technologically dependent churches either through its administration, education, or worship services, the seminaries have excised their communications degree programs. Like my mentor, it was my desire to go to Southwestern and get my MA in Communications there. Now, that degree program doesn’t exist anymore. Now I know that the communications degree doesn’t automatically make someone highly trained in media arts but it does give them an understanding of just what is all involved in a church when it comes to media, productions, and anything in… Read more »
Talk about costs, I earned an M.A. in Counseling from Liberty. Then called Distance Learning (videos and the like before computers). Took me 15 years to pay off about 10,000. OUch! But it was a good degree although my wife thought it was gonna kill me with a heart attack. Toughest degree I ever earned (four others and work on a 5th at a total of 9 other schools ranging from a small Baptist college right up to an ivy league). Trouble is one needs a Ph.D….all others don’t mean anything much.
I just graduated from MBTS this may with a M.Div. My last year there I was paying 175 per credit hour (this year it went up to 185). I now am a Masters student at a state school here in Missouri, my tuition is 227 per credit hour. So yes, technically as a SBC member, my tuition at one of the “cheapest” seminaries is still less than a state school. However there is one MAJOR difference. At MBTS there were very FEW other scholarship options available to me. I applied each semester, and for one year I did get a… Read more »
I think the engineering schools have it right. You go to school for about 1.5 years, alternate school and work for about two years and then finish up with a solid stretch of school. This stretches a “four year degree” to five years but you have made some money and have a variety of experiences that will serve you well. The “country church” just down the hill from where I grew up regarded giving part time employment to juniors and seniors at a Baptist College as part of their mission–as did a number of other small churches. That probably helped… Read more »