Is the Republican Party dead?
Those who say so are overreaching. The Republican Party still dominates the landscape at the level of the several states. Thirty-one governors are Republican, compared to eighteen Democrats and one Independent. A whopping sixty-eight out of ninety-eight partisan state legislative chambers (remember, most states have two, a senate and a house) are Republican, with Republicans controlling both the governor’s mansion and the capitol in twenty-three states. In state government, Republicans have never been stronger.
So, of course, the GOP is not dead. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t call hospice.
Perhaps the worst thing that could happen to the Republican Party would be for Donald Trump actually to win election. As a hypothetical, Donald Trump is one thing. As President of the United States? The odds are significant that the President Trump experience turns out to be so bad that we raise a generation of former Republicans whose passions are as intense as the former Democrats whom Jimmy Carter handed over to the GOP in the late 1970s. We do not have to speculate whether a national politician can be bad enough to eviscerate a party at the state and local level; I’ve watched it happen in my own lifetime.
“How can you fail to vote for Donald Trump and hand the election to Hillary?” some ask. I retort, “How can you vote for Donald Trump and hand the next five elections to the Democrats.”
But even if Trump should lose, there’s a widespread sense that the GOP has crossed some sort of a continental divide. For my part, I can say that my relationship with the party has certainly changed in a number of ways.
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Who Are These People? For all of my lifetime I’ve listened to the shrill complaints of Democrats who have alleged time and again that the GOP is the party of various forms of hatred: misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia, etc. To my horror and chagrin, I’ve learned that they weren’t entirely wrong. With Donald Trump, misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia, and hatred aren’t Democrat insults, they’re planks in his platform. Yes, he’ll moderate his tone in the general election to some degree, perhaps, but nothing Donald Trump can say or unsay in the next few months can ever change the fact that hordes of voters in Republican primaries across the country cast their ballots explicitly for and on the basis of every ugly insult that Democrats have ever made against the GOP.
Emotions are high in this moment. Those emotions will fade over time, but even when the tide of electioneering emotion has ebbed, there will remain for me (and for a lot of other people, I think) the certain and dispassionate knowledge that most Republican primary voters in this nation are something that I am not. The occasional day arrives when I’m not angry at President Obama. The United States killed Osama bin Laden during his presidency. The United States secured the release of Pastor Saeed Abedini from an Iranian prison during his presidency. On rare occasions, I’m happy with something that President Obama has done. Nevertheless, even in those moments when I’m happy with President Obama rather than disappointed with him, I still always know regardless of my present emotional state that he and I are not the same thing politically. I now know precisely the same thing (and feel precisely the same way) about the Republican electorate.
Henceforth, even when Republicans do something good, I’ll respond by saying, “Isn’t that nice what they did over there?” rather than “Isn’t that nice what we did over here?”
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Thanks for the Memories…I think. In this, the most post-GOP moment I’ve ever known, I find myself looking around our dorm room to see what I can pack up in boxes to take with me from our sojourn as roommates. There’s a thing or two. Ronald Reagan gave us the end of the Cold War. I’m just barely old enough to remember knowing that Russian nuclear ICBMs were aimed within thirty miles of my home. Yes, Vladimir Putin is still out there, but there is no equivalent to the Cold War in the world today. The GOP gave us that.
Otherwise?
Republicans in Georgia and Missouri just killed religious liberty bills authored to protect basic liberties that every American enjoyed for 240 years until just months ago. Republican SCOTUS appointees gave us the Smith decision (eviscerating religious liberty and setting up this mess), the Obamacare decision, the Obergefell decision, and every other act and scene in the cautionary tale that is the present state of American jurisprudence.
If someone tells you that he is a Republican, what do you know about him? Do you know that he is pro-Life? You do not. Do you know that he is pro-Religious-Liberty? You do not. Do you know that he is pro-Natural-Marriage? You do not. Do you know his stance on immigration? No. The Flat Tax? No.
Anything? No.
The GOP comfortably contains Lindsey Graham, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump. Republican affiliation no longer means anything.
The GOP just chose as its nominee a guy who stands for nothing more than his raw desire for power. The startling realization at this moment is how little contrast this action strikes when juxtaposed against the history and state of the national party.
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The ABCs of a Failing Party. This morning a significant number of Republican leaders and Christian leaders are already attempting to unify people behind presumptive nominee Donald Trump. The line of argumentation is simple and consistent: Donald Trump is not Hillary Clinton. The moment is frighteningly similar to the dying throes of the Whig Party in the 1850s. The very name of the Whig Party revealed the one thing that unified it: Opposition to “King” Andrew Jackson and the movement he represented.
The question of slavery fractured the Whig Party because abolitionist Whigs discovered that although they still despised the Jacksonian Democrats, they despised slavery just as much. When that happened, the Whig Party died and the Republican Party was born out of its ashes, realigning voting patterns in ways that endured for more than a century. The Whig Party had nothing to offer other than “At least we’re not Democrats,” and therefore it died.
Is ABC (Anyone But Clinton) any stronger of a platform for the Republican Party? Not in any way that I can see. I’m ready to vote FOR someone, not just AGAINST someone. The GOP has finally gone and done it. They’ve finally managed to fill in the A-blank with an “Anyone” who is utterly unacceptable to me.
You see, in the past I’ve been willing to settle for candidates who were weak rather than vote for a Democrat. Now the GOP has advanced a candidate who is evil. Weak and evil are not the same thing. The ABC argument works well to convince me to vote for a weak candidate. It is utterly ineffective to convince me to vote for an evil candidate. Just as Whigs in the 1850s could not overcome their own consciences to vote pro-slavery just to oppose the Democrats, neither can I vote pro-Trumpism just to oppose the Democrats.
I’m not alone. I cannot recall any time in my life when solidly conservative Republicans like Jason Villalba were writing things like this. The captain may not yet have called “Abandon ship!” but there sure does seem to be a crowd gathering in the vicinity of the lifeboats.
Whether the Republican Party is dead or not, I think that the time is ripe for a new coalition to emerge. I think that a sizable portion of the American populace can be found who want neither the politics of Donald Trump nor the politics of Hillary Clinton. I think it is time to ask whether the death of the Republican Party might offer more opportunities than losses. What are those opportunities?
There is an opportunity to attract to a new party people who will never vote for the Republican Party. Nominee Donald Trump makes it even less likely that Hispanics or Blacks vote for Republican candidates. Until this year this refusal of non-whites to vote for Republicans (even when those Republicans were not white!) has befuddled me. After all, the facts consistently show that Liberal policies are horrible for minorities and for everyone else. Why do people keep voting for the policies that are destroying their communities and subverting their values?
Well, mystery solved: They’ve apparently made the acquaintance of these people who have championed Donald Trump. They know better than to vote with them.
But what if there were a third party that championed American values? I’m talking about a pro-Constitution, pro-Bill-of-Rights, pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-family, pro-immigration, pro-business, pro-law-and-order, pro-fair-taxation party. Are there Republicans who would change to support a party like that? I think so. Some would not, thankfully. I’d only be excited about such a party if it were utterly repugnant to Donald Trump and everyone who has excitedly promoted his campaign.
Are there Democrats who would change to support a party like that? I think so. And that’s the key to any hope such a party would have for success. It would necessarily fracture the Republican Party and weaken its strength. To succeed, it would ALSO have to fracture the Democratic Party and weaken its strength.
The keys to success here lie in appealing to family values while highlighting liberal overreach (e.g., letting guys pee in the ladies’ room), demonstrating that pro-economic-development and pro-law-and-order policies are better for minorities than are liberal giveaways (and “pro-law-and-order” must mean support for a justice system that treats people justly), and absolutely welcoming immigrant communities. By the way, if illegal immigrants posed a threat to American jobs and the American economy, we should expect to see that the worst economies in the country were in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas rather than the Midwestern Rust Belt. Instead, places like Texas are a bright spot on the American economic map.
Could that happen? Could a party like that emerge? I don’t know.
But if it did, the demise of the Republican Party would be certain. And when visiting the grave, I wouldn’t bring flowers; I’d bring dancing shoes.
When I grow up, I want to be Bart Barber, without the poor taste in baseball teams.
Have you ever considered that his baseball upbringing (Cardinal Nation is a birthright, not a choice) have made him the winsome writer that he is?
#BFIB #CardinalWay #YesIKnowWeAnnoyTheRestOfYou
This year in St. Louis I’m going to try to arrange for Dave Miller to sit right in Jeremy Hazelbaker’s wheelhouse. Then I’m going to talk to him and distract him a lot.
Hospice? I think Dr Drake Ramoray can fix the GOP in a jiffy. If he is unavailable put out an APB for Dr Richard Kimble.
I just laughed out loud at this one! and am still laughing. HAHAHAHA
Bart really frustrates me.
I’ve written reams on this – fairly aggressive, made some folks mad, gotten a lot of heat. He comes along and writes this piece.
And it SEEMS to be fairly calm and irenic. But then you look at the message and he’s talking about dancing on the grave of the GOP! How does he do it? I write all this stuff and it comes off shrill, and he says something this strong, but it sounds all academic and velvety and prim.
Hate the guy! Go to Africa, Bart.
Where’s the Like button for what Dave just said…oh, and for what Bart has, once again, so well said?!?
Dave, for some reason BB… -8 (couldn’t resist a StarWars reference on “Revenge of the Fifth” Day)… has a gift for irenic pugilism. I think you’ve nailed the source of his training with the baseball affiliation he has chosen. It takes some work to advocate for “elevated Catholic bishops” as your team with a straight face.
[and for good measure, the requisite “annoy Dave” use of emoji]… O:-)
Irenic pugilism.
Nice.
Irenic irony or ironic ireny?
Or Me, Myself, and Irene???
Good night, Irene.
Let’s just be sure to shut down this part of the thread before someone chimes in with Come on, Eileen.
Good stuff, Bart. A friend posted this on FB today – it is outstanding. https://reformedlayman.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/no-a-vote-for-a-third-party-or-abstaining-from-voting-is-not-the-same-as-a-vote-for-hillary/ “So this election cycle please, don’t pass the blame on us. Don’t guilt trip us. Don’t say if you didn’t vote for Trump you have no right to complain about Hillary winning. Rather, GOP, take a look at yourselves and ask why you didn’t earn my vote and what drastic changes you need to make to change that for the future. Or don’t do that and fade away into that has been party that used to win elections but gave way to a new party.… Read more »
Bart; ” Do you know that he is pro-Life? You do not. Do you know that he is pro-Religious-Liberty? You do not. Do you know that he is pro-Natural-Marriage? You do not. Do you know his stance on immigration? No. The Flat Tax? No.” Agreed; although the platform will be correct. BUT, you do ‘KNOW’ the position of all democrat candidates on those issues. And you know that the opposition will be consistently wrong. And you also know the criticality of this moment (SCOTUS, eg.) And you also know that 3rd party rhetoric will elect candidates who hate us on… Read more »
Dale, Bart isn’t such a bad guy.
If you ever get to know him, you might like him. Just keep him out of your family.
Dale, in the section that you quoted, I was discussing the hypothetical politician who identifies as Republican (I’ve never written it that way, and the genius of that phrase hits me strongly. Some of the people who self-identify as Republican are actually Republican about as much as some of the people who self-identify as women are actually women). But lets ask about Donald Trump specifically. Do we know that he is pro-life? Actually, we know that he is not. During the GOP Primary (otherwise known as the season when Republican candidates veer to the right) Trump supported funding Planned Parenthood.… Read more »
Political conservatism is no longer represented by a party, although some individuals in political offices are conservative. The good news, and it should never be seen as trite to continually remind people of this, is that God is still sovereign and will never be dethroned. Once upon a time the Church thrived as Rome fell, albeit through difficult doctrinal disputes. Look at where the Church is today despite the global calamity we are seeing. We aren’t in decline, although it may seem that way if you follow only the numbers. The truth is that the Church is particularly strong in… Read more »
“Once upon a time the Church thrived as Rome fell, albeit through difficult doctrinal disputes. Look at where the Church is today despite the global calamity we are seeing. We aren’t in decline, although it may seem that way if you follow only the numbers. The truth is that the Church is particularly strong in some unlikely places right now around the world. God is using the turmoil for his purposes, and we can rejoice in that. We just need to be faithful to continue the work that he has given us.” Jim, I made this very point last night… Read more »
“With Donald Trump, misogyny, bigotry, xenophobia, and hatred aren’t Democrat insults, they’re planks in his platform.”
This is the part that bothers me the most. They are indeed planks in his platform. That troubles me more than what Donald is. It’s why I’m jumping the Republican ship.
Some thoughts and observations on the “end” of the Republican Party. This November, it is one thing not to vote for Trump. I understand how people feel and depending on his VP pick, I may even join you all in not voting for him. However, it is another thing to stay home, and not vote at all. To be blunt, that is the path of a coward. Everyone this November has a congressional race to vote for. 1/3rd of us have a US Senate race to vote for. We all have state congressional races to vote for. Some of us… Read more »
I absolutely agree. I would also call upon everyone to vote for a presidential candidate as well. Despite what D.C. would have you believe, there ARE more than two parties. Voting for the Libertarian, Constitution or American Party candidate sends a clear message of “Nope and Noper” about Donito Trumpolini and Mao Tse Pantsuit…
How is it cowardly?
I’m tracking with you about abdicating responsibility and Romans 13 and all that jazz but I’m not seeing the connection with it being de facto cowardly.
I use the term cowardly, because in my observations, an unfortunately large number of the people who complain about the state of the GOP and who are saying they never will support the GOP again, have never participated within the GOP at any level. They vote in major elections, and presidential primaries only, and then complain when there are no good candidates. This year, most statewide office in Missouri is having a GOP primary. And yet, because of my involvement, as limited as it is (due to personal life issues), I know who I am voting for and supporting. For… Read more »
SV: Nice try but again no cigar.
Debbie,
If the shoe fits…
SV: If the shoe fits I’ll wear it and wear it proudly. I have no problem with that. But to say it’s cowardly is a poor argument. But if standing for my convictions is cowardly, ok I’ll wear that label.
Still standing by my convictions of not voting for evil or evil.
Again, not voting for Trump IS NOT in itself cowardly. Not voting at all, complaining about the state of the GOP while having NEVER participated in GOP events or made the slightest effort to change the GOP from the ground level…Yes that is cowardly. That is akin to someone being a member of a church, rarely attends and never participates in the churches ministries. The one of the times they do attend, the pastor says something they do not like, and so they suddenly start attending, while trying to get the pastor fired. When the church does not fire the… Read more »
Still not seeing it as cowardice. I’ll try again, so what is a person afraid of? And is it possible there are other reasons besides cowardice for not voting.
I wouldn’t call it cowardice (although cowardice could motivate it, I suppose…a fear of making the wrong decision?). Instead of cowardice, I would say that it is dereliction of one’s duty not to vote.
Dr Barber, I would put forward the proposition, that dereliction of duty should be assigned to those who do not vote, have not voted, and have no interest in voting. Those are not the people who I am referring to, though I can see how closely related they could be viewed in relationship to the group I call cowards.
Well, I am not voting in this election, jumping from the Republican party. If to you that is cowardice. I am fine with that. I don’t really care what it is I just know I’m going with what I strongly feel to be the right thing to do. The choices are Hillary and Trump. No thank you. One has to give me a reason to vote, this is a reason not to vote and I’m still going to voice my thoughts. No one is going to tell me how to vote or not vote nor is anyone going to silence… Read more »
On the other hand, I have to put up with remarks like you are making SV, and I could keep all of my politics to myself to avoid it, but the reason I speak out is because I want it to be known why I won’t vote, why I am no longer Republican via this election because I think it’s important not to stay silent the choice for Presidential candidates is so beyond my scope of understanding.
So again Debbie, instead of leaving the President slot blank, or writing in someone else, or even voting third party, you are not going to go vote at all…And thus you will not vote in elections such as state legislature, for your US rep, or for any other election that is taking place this November. I would wager you have never actually participated in any political events (meet and greets, city/county GOP meetings, ect), and thus never had your voice heard where it can have the most impact. And yet you still are going to get on a high horse… Read more »
I’ve seen people state they might leave the President spot blank and not vote for either of the wicked choices we have from either party. I even toyed momentarily with the idea of dissing the Prez line and just voting down ballot (I have decided that I will vote third party or do a write in) – but I have not seen where any conservatives have abdicated voting for house and senate (if their state is up for senatorial elections). (I still say we should repeal the 17th amendment and go back to state legislators appointing US senators. But that… Read more »
I will fill every slot on my ballot. It’s just that neither Clinton nor Trump will be among the names receiving my support.
Yeah, me too….I said I momentarily toyed with the idea of not filling that slot. But then I’m like “Nah, I’m too opinionated for that!” LOL But I will not vote for Trump. I have said that very early…I said it when people were still saying he would never last – the way he treated Megyn Kelly and the way he talked about Carson way back solidifed that opposition. I was #nevertrump before it was popular. I did not join the hashtag nevertrump bandwagon (never used it except to call on someone using it to pick a candidate) because it… Read more »
“I did not join the hashtag nevertrump bandwagon (never used it except to call on someone using it to pick a candidate) because it offered no solution only opposition…” My turn to return the favor here, Tarheel. I’m of the same mind as you on this. I won’t vote for Trump, but the negativity on the conservative side has gotten as bad as what we are used to seeing from the liberals. The Trumpkins are hating on the NeverTrumpers and the NeverTrumpers are hating on the Trumpkins. Interestingly, I haven’t seen a whole lot from my liberal friends hating on… Read more »
Great point, Jim. I’m stealing that!
I think the #NeverTrump movement will very soon name an alternative. At least, I hope that they will.
Tar heel, I have tried to make it clear that people like you are NOT who I am targeting. If I have given that impression that I was implying that about you I apologize. The people I have a problem with are the people who are going to stay home entirely this November, not vote in ANY race that is up for election where they live, AND (on top of that) who decide that their opinion on politics actually is worth a hill of beans. I myself have said that if Trump picks anyone but a solid conservative for VP,… Read more »
Naw, I never took your comments as directed at me.
I agree with you, for a conservative to stay home and not participate at all because they do not like Trump is…well….stupid. If nothing else – we gotta elect real conservatives to the House and Senate so they can be there to work against Trump or Hillary’s liberal policies.
Well I can handle the labels stupid and dereliction of duty just fine. In fact I even smiled as I read it.
Tarheel: There are none of the above descriptive either. They are pretty much all cow towing to Trump. I will vote independent the next election. Nothing in the Republican party interests me. It didn’t last election nor this one.
My comments were pointed at those who do not vote at all – not those who vote.
There are a few down-ballot conservatives that have the R behind their name who are worthy of voting for (at least in my district)…despite the fact that the top of the R ticket clearly is not.
Ditto Tarheel. If I were in Nebraska, I would be proud and vocal to support a Republican named Sen Ben Sasse. If I lived in Texas I would be proud to support Republican Sen Ted Cruz (duh! I voted for the guy for president!). If I lived in Utah, I would be proud to vote for Republican Sen Mike Lee (who is…GASP…a Mormon…and also one of the most consistently conservative, on every issue, members of the Senate). Or how about my state, Missouri. The up for election this year is Republican Sen Roy Blunt. He is an establishment Republican, but… Read more »
I’m as #NeverNotVote as I am #NeverClinton and #NeverTrump.
SVMuschany, I don’t agree that not voting is inherently cowardly, but… I do agree that to not vote at all is not the best choice, at least in this respect. “Not voting” can be dismissed by candidates and parties as apathy. IOW, these folks don’t care what we do. At least voting for someone else (e.g. third party) gets counted, whether it is a vote for conscience or a protest vote. (For awhile I’ve been in favor of a “none of the above” selection on ballots. Seriously.) I spent many active years in the Republican Party, because I thought they… Read more »
We DO need to support Trump in a vain attempt to defeat Hillary…and we WILL need a replacement for the Republican Party when they lose the White House, the Senate and the House. All we need is a catchy name….how about the Common Sense Party…or the Sane Party….Or the Liberty Party.
You feel free. I cannot and will not.
Bart, I could have misread, but it seems you are insinuating that the election of Jimmy Carter (which nobody predicted would turn out as badly as it did) eviserated the Democratic Party. If that is what you are saying, I don’t know that history agrees with you. Certainly a Democrat wouldn’t win the Presidency for another 12 years, but the Democrats didn’t lose the House until 2 years into Clinton’s presidency. And the Republicans only held the Senate in the first 6 years of Reagan’s presidency, and then didn’t re-capture it until after Clinton. Again, I could be misunderstanding you,… Read more »
I didn’t insinuate that Jimmy Carter eviscerated the Democratic Party. I simply stated that he (together with Ronald Reagan) created a party-switching phenomenon by which a generation of people reared yellow-dog Democrat became unswervingly Republican.
Democrats still had some pretty solid constituencies left behind, but they still suffered defeat in ways that many have forgotten and few appreciate today. I remember when every Democrat gt fighting mad and ran the other way if you called him a liberal. Now a man proudly calling himself a Socialist is winning upset after upset in presidential primaries.
OK. So I actually DID say that Jimmy Carter eviscerated the Democratic Party.
I just REALLY like the word “eviscerate.” He hurt the Democratic Party. He hurt them very badly.
I think you’re exactly right about the lean left-ward of the Democrats. I might argue that it began with Humphrey rather than Carter. I remember my mom and dad arguing over my mom wanting to vote for Nixon and my dad (a Teamster) getting very mad about the house vote being split. Regardless, while I like the word eviscerate also, I don’t think the Republicans are anywhere near done should Trump win the presidency. That is, unless many in the Republican fold that are conservative, and are sick and tired of the Establishment boys (Ryan, McConnell, McCain, Romney, Graham, Boehner,… Read more »
Nobody reads my blog any more (since I hardly ever post there). I posted this article on my blog for one and only one reason: So I could copy the HTML from there and paste it back over here after Dave previewed it and messed up the formatting. 🙂
I didn’t touch your formatting. The only thing I did was add a space where none existed.
Oh, and I added a question mark where it seemed one was appropriate.
When you preview it WordPress automatically kills the formatting. It can’t help it—it’s more Android than Apple.
Really?
Then in the future, just let me know you’ve got something and post it yourself.
You do an awesome job running this place. I’m just picking on you for fun. I don’t mind. I just fix the formatting after it drops. No big deal.
WordPress’s WYSIWYG editor doesn’t think that numbered lists should contain paragraphs. So, for all of my … tags inside an … tag, WordPress strips them right out. That causes the spacing to be strange within the ordered lists.
Of course, the HTML standard has no problem whatsoever with ‘s in ‘s. So that’s why when I edit in WordPress (under duress) I always use the HTML editor, not the WYSIWYG editor.
Bart: “Nobody reads my blog any more…”
I do. It’s just that we have to keep reading the same old stuff over and over and over and over….
Get busy and start posting there. 😉
And then, as if to reach out and help struggling bloggers like myself, Trump gave us this gift today. New Trump Finance Chair Has Given Twice as Much to Democrats as to the GOP.
You buried the lead, Bart!
“Steve Mnuchin, a Wall Street hedge fund manager, has deep ties to the Democratic Party — including working for George Soros.”
Notice the last 5 words……
Let that sink in Trumpsters!
Bart, Great post. 100% agree. It may be time to launch a Kingdom Party. And if it starts out fully interracial, it’s DNA would guarantee inclusion; thus avoiding the stigma that many Blacks & other minorities face when aligned with or voting Republican, that we are sell-outs, or a part of a racist party. If a vibrant, vital, & victorious Kingdom party, erupt from the Trump ashes, that would be a good thing. I pray that The Lord would raise up a person who can successfully launch a new party that shares & reflect the values of God’s Kingdom. If… Read more »
Wise words Bart. Thanks for adding your voice to the outcry and welcome to the party. I am glad to have you with us.
It’s hard to leave behind something that once held incredible value to you and for you. But it’s a lot easier when you realize they have actually left you behind. The GOP has done so for all of us who saw them as th me defenders of all that you laid out. It’s time for a change.
Funny, all your collective consciences did not compel you to speak out when a former president got us into a needless war that cost the lives of thousands. In fact, I remember reading most of your comments supporting the Iraq war. But now you’re worried and appalled by alledged misogyny? The irony would be laughable, if it weren’t so sad. Bart, as smart as everyone declares you to be, you still haven’t figured out that a third is incapable of winning a presidential election. That sir, would do far more to ensure the Dems win the next five elections than… Read more »
John, I’m not sure what is the antecedent of “That” in the second sentence of your second paragraph. What is it, precisely, that would do more to give Democrats the next five elections than a Trump presidency? Grammatically, it looks like you’re saying that for a third-party candidate to win a presidential election would do so, in which case I’m wondering how on earth you draw that conclusion. But I don’t think that’s what you meant, because you declared that to be an absolute impossibility (be sure not to visit the Lincoln Memorial if you’re ever in Washington). Are you… Read more »
An third party run.
Sorry, my phone isn’t cooperating.
No a third party run, Bart. Surely you are smart enough to know that a third party candidate has no hope of ever winning the white house. Forming a third party would only serve to get Dems elected, and you know that.
Oh come on, Bart. Your feigned ignorance is unbecoming. You know that a third party of the kind you are proposing would only ciphon votes off of the Republican party thus ensuring Democratic victories.
Abraham Lincoln won the presidency as the candidate of the new Republican Party. It split out of and then destroyed the Whig Party.
Can it happen?
It HAS happened. That’s what I’m “smart enough to know.”
Under the current system all that a semi viable third party would do is result in the 1992 election all over again. You know it and I know it, your 150 year old example notwithstanding.
So, while we’re on this topic, let’s talk about things that can’t happen. 1. It just can’t happen that the Republican Speaker of the House would decline to endorse the GOP Presidential nominee, right? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ryan-says-he-is-not-ready-to-back-trump-deepening-gop-divide/2016/05/05/fab4c590-12ff-11e6-81b4-581a5c4c42df_story.html) 2. It just can’t happen that a Republican senator from the Heartland would write an open letter calling for Republicans to vote Independent in this election. I mean, that just doesn’t happen, does it? (http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/ben-sasse-trump-facebook-post-222833) 3. It just can’t happen that Republican elected officials from Republican strongholds like Texas are (correctly) branding the GOP presidential nominee as “a bigoted, orange, buffoonish, ignorant ape.” I mean,… Read more »
Let’s try it this way, John: You tell us what you know, and I’ll see whether I can manage on my own to tell us all about what I know.
K?
Bart, I never said any of those things can’t happen. But, let’s say you draw off half of the GOP voters, do you really think you have any chance at winning? I’m sure the Dems would send you a thank you card though.
You could draw off 80% of the GOP voters and you would still lose.
Go back to the original post and read the part about taking voters away from the Democratic Party. John, do you think that every single person who votes for the Democrats is in favor of letting little Susie go pee next to Billy Bob? Do you think that they all gleefully clap while Baronnelle Stutzman is hounded into receivership? Do you think that every single one of them is totally unmoved by the video of legs being ripped off of unborn babies? If you do, then you’re wrong. A lot of Democrats do not like these things. But if it… Read more »
It can’t happen this election cycle and probably not the next. I’m not willing to let Clinton appointment the next 4 or 5 Supreme Court justices. If that happens, we are done. That’s what I believe, Bart.
I’m sorry about being heated. Bart, I do respect you. I just strongly disagree with you here. Ross Perot was enough to sour me on third party candidates.
I know of no credible reason to suspect that a Donald Trump SCOTUS nomination will be one iota better than a Hillary Clinton nomination.
But what you and I both know is that Clinton’s picks would be unacceptable for sure.
Again, I would encourage you either to establish your credentials for your expertise about what I know or refrain from telling me what I know.
It comes down to this: Obliterating religious liberty (which he has promised to do) and forcing the military to commit war crimes (which he has promised to do) are just as bad as what Clinton’s SCOTUS justices would do. It’s not an unknown. Trump’s appointees would be just as bad as Clinton’s, albeit in different ways, and with no reason to think that they wouldn’t be just as worse in the same ways to boot.
Dr Barber, the sole “credible” reason to suspect Trump will nominate “good” justices to the SCOTUS, will be who he selects as VP. If he picks a solid conservative then we can at least have hope that he will nominate good justices. If he picks a moderate, we know that will never be the case.
And I remind John that President George HW Bush gave us Justice Souter and President Reagan gave us O’Connor. Those two justices were every bit as bad as Clinton’s Justices Ginsburg and Breyer. Just food for thought.
SVM,
That previous Republicans gave us bad justices is not new information for me. Look back up there…that’s in my original post.
I’m curious as to the details of this alleged link between VP selection and SCOTUS nomination. Are you suggesting that something about Dan Quayle foreshadowed the Souter nomination? Come to think of it, I’ve never actually SEEN Souter spell potato.
Are you saying what I suggested was untrue? You really don’t know that?
No. I’m telling you that it is poor form and is offensive. Speak for yourself.
In this one case it is correct, but it is a point that I never disputed and it is a point that is irrelevant, since I also know that Donald Trump’s nominees would be unacceptable.
How could you possibly know that, Bart?
Never mind, I retract the question. Good night.
In precisely the same way that I know that Hillary Clinton’s appointees would be unacceptable. Donald Trump has promised to set aside the First Amendment guarantees of religious liberty in order to impose a religious establishment with regard to immigration law. He has promised to force American citizens to register with the government their religious affiliations. He has promised to force military officials to commit war crimes.
Why wouldn’t I take Donald Trump at his word? Why wouldn’t I know that his SCOTUS appointees would be jurists who would permit every bit of that?
I was opposed to the Iraq war and called out W and Cheney for their falsehoods on WMDs. For which I was called a liberal, anti-military, and an Obama voter. I’m none of those. I would be careful with your generalizations. I have also been vocally critical on this site and others of those who blindly vote GOP because they “represent our values.” As sad as I am for how this is now turning out, it is nice to be vindicated. I’m glad to welcome all these new people to movement to end the evangelical church’s marriage to the GOP… Read more »
Ryan,
I commend you on your stance, sir. But I will not support a party that can do nothing but guarantee that the Dems are elected. Sorry, I’m not as enamored with this idea as you all seem to be.
I’ve decided to solve the whole thing this way:
1. Democrats will say to Bernie supporters that a failure to vote for Hillary is the same thing as a vote for Trump, even if they are voting for a third-party candidate.
2. I am failing to vote for Hillary.
3. Therefore, my independent vote is the same thing as a vote for Trump.
There, now. Everyone’s happy.
Good night.
Hillary is Jezebel and Trump is Nebuchadnezzar; not a great choice. But the Third Party idea may not be the best. If the Republican establishment had forced Trump to be the nominee through a contested convention or some kind of tricky procedure, I could see a groundswell large enough to consider a third option. But that isn’t what happened. The Republican establishment opposed Trump; a large number of Republican voters decided for Trump. To run a more consistently conservative candidate or start a more conservative party will have trouble building the kind of broad-based coalition that has enabled past Republican… Read more »
Bart, I do not want to misrepresent what you are saying although it seems to be a foundation to most peoples frustration. For clarity: The majority of Republican primary voters DID NOT vote for Trump. From my view point the core issue that enabled this outcome was the RNC presenting 17 Presidential candidates to the media. The media was the winner in this election cycle. Add revenues are at record numbers for news organizations that were losing billions. Thanks to the RNC strategy. For a third party to succeed you need media. It is much easier to fix the RNC… Read more »
John K, The remaining problem with the RNC (and I don’t know a solution for this) is how highly unpopular it is with every growing demographic in the United States. It remains popular only among demographic groups who are shrinking. So, fixing the RNC has to include some sort of a strategy that makes it appeal to Latinos and Blacks. Like that; don’t like it; doesn’t matter: That’s math, and numbers don’t care about feelings. Presidential nominee Donald Trump puts Latinos much further out of reach for the GOP. They will not soon forget that this is the party of… Read more »
Bart, I apologize for offending you with my comments yesterday. I see a lot of what you are saying, I just deteat everything the Democrats stand for.
I detest it, too, John. I wouldn’t have spent the energy to argue with you at such length if I weren’t sure that we were in the same neighborhood.
“So, fixing the RNC has to include some sort of a strategy that makes it appeal to Latinos and Blacks. ” We agree fully on this strategy. Tactics and allies may be the point of disagreement. I believe a third party will be hijacked looking more like Trump than anything you perceive it to be at this time. I am not sure how you accomplish Fiscal Conservatism without Social Conservatism. I think we will see many things that will change our tactics between now and the convention. I think we will see many things between the Convention and November that… Read more »
I have to say that I was impressed by Villalba’s description of Trump. But I’m not sure about the adjective “orange”. It is apparently an insult but I don’t quite get it. The Republican party used to stand for something. It used to have a platform. It used to stand for conservative values, family values, and so on. You know the list. But now evidently the Republican platform has only one plank. Defeat Democrats. It is astonishing that the party that purportedly stands for traditional morality is willing to back the most immoral candidate in its history as long as… Read more »
Orange jokes are Because of his awful spray on tan and make up jobs.
Heres one such pic and video of him – The article reminds us of how he spoke of his new best friend forever and ” excellent human being” Ben Carson – of course this is before dr. Carson endorsed him and is now hitting up his vice presidential search.
http://www.thewrap.com/donald-trump-compares-ben-carson-to-a-child-molester-video/
Ah, got it. I wish I could say the Carson thing baffles me, being compared to a child-molester and then turning around and endorsing Trump, but so many politicians in this election cycle have seemingly dropped their principles, if they possessed them in the first place, for the chance of power.
Here’s a great summary of Donald Trump’s politics. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/campaigns-elections/the-gops-catastrophic-choice-trump/
That is a great article. But let’s not forget, he’s not politically correct.! That appears to be a major qualification for president these days.
I still feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone. Trump just tweeted a picture of himself with a taco bowl in front of him, with the quote: “I love hispanics!”
Everyone who ever made fun of Dan Quayle needs to beg his forgiveness. Whoever thought a man who alternates between acting like a walking Onion article and then advocating war crimes would have a serious shot at being president.
However this may affect your prayers and political practices, consider these things. It is unimaginable that any third party candidate could receive a majority of the electoral votes, since to do so in our mostly “winner take all” system of state elector allocation, that would require the third party candidate to take the most popular votes in each of a large number of states. Many do not know that in all but 2 states, presidential candidates get ALL of the electors from that state if they receive the most popular votes in that state. They need not win the majority… Read more »