I love the scene in “O Brother, Where Art Thou” when Pete and Everett are arguing about who should be in charge and decide to take a vote.
Pete: Suits me. I’m voting for yours truly.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Well I’m voting for yours truly too.
[Everett and Pete look at Delmar for the deciding vote]
Delmar O’Donnell: Okay… I’m with you fellas.
Delmar votes with both of them, though they disagree.
That’s how I feel about the split opinion among conservatives about the president’s decisive and swift action in response to Syria’s use of chemical weapons on its own people.
Some say we should mind our own business and stop interfering in every fight. It seems like every time we get involved we only make things worse. A few rockets on an airfield escalates and suddenly there are grounds troops in a shooting war that turns into a quagmire that we can’t get out of resulting in a lot of body bags.
I’m with you fellas.
On the other hand, can we really stand by and watch a man use chemical weapons on women and children and do nothing? If I am walking down the street and see a man beating a woman behind a picket fence, do I walk on because he’s doing it in the privacy of his own yard and it’s none of my business? Many are saying that the president’s decisive action showed Assad and even Putin that they cannot act like thugs and tyrants in this region. For a man as widely hated as Trump is this action was very widely praised.
I’m with you fellas.
It’s an internal struggle. I don’t like to see us meddling in every internal conflict in every country around the world, but there seems to me to be a moral responsibility that attaches to having the military power we have. If we will not respond to the gassing of innocent civilians what will we respond to? Doesn’t our military power carry at least some obligation to interfere when bullies go a step too far?
It’s a tough call, but I guess for me in this case I’m with the president. I would hate to see us send ground troops in but bombing Assad’s military infrastructure seems a measured and appropriate response.
A moral response.
What say you?
I’m with ya Dave. Or, “I’m with you fellas.”
Walking down that same street are lots of other countries that could do something but don’t…but they raise their voices when we do something about it.
I agree with the President’s action.
America should only act when its own national security is at risk. China who we do business with is brutal with her own people. North Korea starves many children every year. Many African countries kill innocents every day, most Muslim terrorist. Syria is not a threat to the U.S. and is fighting ISIS. Frankly , I do not care who rules Syria and the country would be better off if Assad ran the country. Muslim countries only work with strongman leaders who keep control like Tito did. I voted for and support Trump but now am concerned. Like it was mentioned when his “haters” praise him watch out. However the Never Trump people will turn on him very soon. My view on when we should get involved in another countries civil war , that does not threatened us is simple. Think of the person you love the most in the whole world, would you want them to die in Syria or any country that was not in our direct national interest? Trump was right before the establishment got to him. For the Never Trumpers they are happy, if he keeps listening to the Washington neo cons we will certainly be a one term President , which is what they all want . All things are political in Washington The rebels fighting Assad are no better than him just a different religion and tribal interest.
In WW2, the United States only went to war with Germany, because due to their mutual defense pact with Japan, when we declared war on Japan, they declared war on us. If Japan had not attacked, many were NOT supportive of getting involved in Europe, even as rumors of the Nazi’s actions regarding the Jews started coming out. After all, those Jews were not OUR citizens. The FDR administration even turned away Jewish people trying to escape the Holocaust. The depth of the evil of the Holocaust was not known, but the fact “something” bad was happening WAS known. Tell me, if Japan had not attacked, would you have said then the United States should not have stopped Hitler? How many deaths are required to act not just in National Security interests, but to act through basic human morality? A quote attributed to Edmund Burke is very apt, “All that necessary the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
People like Eric who claim to be followers of Jesus scare me. How can you not be moved to act or intervene when you can see what is happening in Syria? Or North Korea? Or anywhere. What has so calloused your soul that you can care more about your own nation over and above the people of another nation. And to say that the people of Syria would be better off with Assad? Or that Muslim nations “run better with a strongman?” That’s closing your eyes to a whole lot of evil.
Statements like this are why the alt-right is such a scary force. They care so little for anyone other than themselves. They are populated with atheists and nationalists who have confused “god” with country and race with nationality. They have forgotten our country, with the exception of Native Americans, were all once immigrants, both legal and illegal.
Dave, I agree with you that I am torn if this is the best course of action. What I am hoping and praying for is that it signals a change in tone and executive action towards refugees. If we are enough about them to use $400M worth of rockets in response to their gassing, then surely we care enough about them to open our doors to them to live in safety.
Nazi Germany and Japan were a direct threat to America and war was inevitable. The Japanese killed millions of Chinese before 1941 and the world did nothing either. The war America should not have gotten involved was WW 1 but that is a different issue. Stalin killed millions of his own people during the 1930’s and Communist in China are the largest mass murderers of all time. Sticking to the “now” should we take action in every country that is killing its own people for political and religious reasons? The world is tough and tough decisions have to be made . The President of the United States has one main job , to defend the people of the United States not the rest of the world unless it is in our direct national interest. The Shah of Iran was a better dictator and more humane than those who replaced him. We tried to install our vision of justice and political/social order on Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan where the majority of population did not support our interest . How will we know when we won in the Middle East? Watch the tide of public opinion turn against Trump when the liberal establishment tires of supporting this one action they approve of because of their social not moral agenda.
Germany in the late 30’s and in 40-41 was not a direct threat to the United States. They had no plans on attacking the United States, they only attacked our shipping because we were sending arms to England. In very many respects if Isolationists such as the America First Party had their way, (and assuming Japan never attacked), the United States would not have gotten involved with the war in Europe. As for Japan, it could be argued that US actions (racism and economic preference to trade with China over Japan) pushed Japan from the Western Friendly Meiji and Taisho governments into the mllitaristic Showa. Indeed, I believe US brought war with Japan upon ourselves.
Regardless, you skirted my question. Let me ask again, if Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor, with what was becoming known what Hitler and the Nazi’s were doing to the Jews, would you have said the United States should get involved in the European war given that Germany at that time was no direct threat to the United States.
Thank you, eric c, for making some very valid points.
Trump’s aggression towards a country that’s done absolutely nothing to us is a war crime of huge magnitude. Assad is one of the very few Middle Eastern leaders who allows Christianity in his country (as did Saddam Hussein, by the way!)
Assad & Putin basically have backed ISIS into a corner, and were able to do so without doing massive damage to Syria’s infrastructure – but just by blocking off supply lines to ISIS, etc.
Michael Rozeff summed it up quite well:
“It is absurd to suppose that Assad ordered a chemical weapons raid. Why would he do this when he’s been using conventional bombs for years? Why would he do this when chemical weapons are notoriously hard to control and use? Why would he do this when his chemical weapons stock pile has been removed from Syria? Why would he take the risk of being found out? Why would he do this when he’s winning using conventional weapons?”
https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/absurdities-surround-syrian-incident/
Think, people
C.A. Fort
absonjourney, I do not claim to be a follower of Jesus, I am. Are you saying because I disagree with you politically on correct courses of political/social actions I do no believe or have lost sight of the fact that Jesus is my personal savior? I do not doubt your stated belief that you are born again follower of Christ because you do not agree with me. Was Dr. Moore right when he stated I had to” repudiate everything I believe in “to support Trump. Do you want to invade North Korea, China, Sudan and all the countries that are ruled by dictators who abuse and kill their own people. How many refugees do you want to allow in the USA or is there a limit? Do you want to be like Europe when it is predicated the predominate religion in Italy will be Muslim within 30 years as Christianity is extinguished? Do you think the battle of Tours was necessary or should the Muslims have taken over Europe? Do you think I believe being an American is more important than being a Christian? Do you think the loyal good Americans in the pew who give the Pledge of Allegiance are pledging loyalty to America over God? Governments and rulers are necessary in this world and we in America have been blessed with our form of government. War is terrible, serious and the last act of any sane nation. It should only be applied to protect its national interest and then pursued to victory. North Korea is a bigger threat to America now than Syria by far. If you are a pacifist so be it but someone has to fight for your right to be a pacifist. How does the Muslim religion advance itself historically? God is in control in all ages and circumstances . Also we were led to believe that Syria and Russia had gotten rid of the poison gas according to Obama/Kerry but we have to live in the real world. Watch the narrative change on Trump as the establishment talks out of both sides of their mouth in the next few weeks.
How many refugees do you want to allow in the USA or is there a limit?
No.
I am glad President Trump made the decision he made. We may not be able to help every single person in the whole world, so we don’t sit on our hands and do nothing, we help where we can. I am glad for that. That is the human side of the United States.
“Are you saying because I disagree with you politically on correct courses of political/social actions I do no believe or have lost sight of the fact that Jesus is my personal savior?”
Adventures in missing the point.
Absonjourney isn’t criticizing you for disagreeing with him politically….he’s criticizing you because you seem to have implied that you turn a blind eye and plug your ears toward the atrocities in this world as long as those atrocities do not involve American. Also you said, “Frankly , I do not care who rules Syria and the country would be better off if Assad ran the country.” A ruler of a country just used chemical warfare that tortured and killed babies, and you don’t care who rules Syria? That is telling.
Also, what if I told you it is in our national interest to show compassion to those escaping torched, rape, and warfare? (Think hard about that one).
Tyler, “People like Eric who claim to be followers of Jesus scare me”. That is a pretty clear statement to me. Of course I am from the Jimmy Swaggart camp of Christianity because who else would support Trump? America must be wise, prudent and act in our own national interest. We are the “good” guys and when America loses its super power status in the world it will be a sad day for the world. I will pray for President Trump as I did for President Obama to goven wisely. I do not like the Russell Moore type of apology of some might have taken what I said in the wrong way. No words have meaning and if you disagree with me you might have lost your Christian values .
Yes I agree with Russell Moore that to vote for Trump you had to repudiate a lot of your Christina values.
No I disagree with you. on America being the “good” guys. We are not and never have been. No nation is wholly good. We have plenty of black eyes and blemishes.
I don’t think the any flag or any pledge belong in churches. We are citizens of one Kingdom and owe our loyalty to one King.
I said nothing about invading anyone. I said “moved to act or intervene.” That’s not about invasion it is about compassion.
My statement about “claim to be followers of Jesus” was directly related to your lack of compassion or concern for those who are suffering conflated against your desire to protect our national interests. I don’t have any national interests, beyond those prescribed in scripture- paying taxes, respecting the government, and honoring the “king” (or in our case the duly elected government. I think the call to show compassion, to care for the orphan and the widow, and to provide aid (ala the Good Samaritan) to my neighbor, trumps any national interest I have. In other words, I think those scriptures are part of my mandate. “America First” is not in the Bible. We are not a “chosen nation.” We do, however, have Christians in our borders, and you claim to be one, so we should be concerned about people who are persecuted and murdered in Syria and other places. We should offer aid and refuge. We should care. You made it clear you don’t. That’s troubling.
Finally, I am tired of the Europe refugee arguments. This isn’t Europe. Our systems of government are different. Our people are different. I’m not worried about refugees coming here and changing things. I am worried about people like you Eric, who seem hell bent on taking our nation and turning it into an indifferent fortress rather than a place that says give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free.
Absonjourney…
Though Eric and I disagree here, I am not sure why you want to make it seems he says what he did not say.
“No nation is wholly good” Eric did not say this or imply this as much as you would say or imply that you live in a terrible nation. At least I do not think you would say that. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You also say… “Yes I agree with Russell Moore that to vote for Trump you had to repudiate a lot of your Christina values.” I think this could be said about any candidate or any write in name to a certain extent. Since none of us are wholly good.
You also state…”My statement about “claim to be followers of Jesus” was directly related to your lack of compassion or concern for those who are suffering conflated against your desire to protect our national interests. ”
What seems to be the problem i nyour comment is that you expect Eric to have the same or somewhat the same level of compassion in this situation than you do. That seems somewhat legalistic. At least to me it does. It does come across as… since you (Eric) do not show the compassion I (absonjourney) show then his being a follower of Christ is in question.
Lastly, you state… “Finally, I am tired of the Europe refugee arguments. This isn’t Europe. Our systems of government are different. Our people are different. I’m not worried about refugees coming here and changing things. I am worried about people like you Eric, who seem hell bent on taking our nation and turning it into an indifferent fortress rather than a place that says give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free.”
You can be tired of whatever you want. Many are tired of the same thing you are. Many are not. Your show of grace towards a brother in Christ lacks the compassion you want him to have towards others.
It is time to grow up and learn different does not mean wrong. We who are followers of Christ need to learn this among our own ranks. I am learning that and the recipient of the blessings that come with it as I serve in the Middle East.
I differ in the actions of Trump with Eric but he should not be belittled by a fellow follower of Christ because of any differences on this. Of course, you liked that RM verbally degraded fellow believers so getting you to see clearly here may be difficult.
From those closer to the battle… “The UAE has expressed its full support to the US military operations against the military targets in Syria, in response to the Syrian regime’s use of the chemical weapons against innocent civilians that claimed dozens of lives, including children and women.”
http://gulfnews.com/news/uae/government/uae-backs-us-air-strikes-against-syrian-regime-1.2007469
svmuschany, War with imperial Japan and Nazi Germany was inevitable and that is based on my historical perspective. No more WW 2 theories. This post is about current real life, real time events. If the USA is going to intercede to promote justice, freedom, equality though out the world we better arm up the tactical nuclear weapons or start a draft of everyone over 18. President Obama got us involved (orally) in a civil war in Syria This region has one common theme , they hate the Jewish state and the USA. Either use overwhelming force and win or stay/get out. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran and the other Muslim states could stop this in a minute if they cared about their people and wanted a peaceful solution. The USA should act in its own national interest just like you should act in your own family’s interest first in matters of this world.
The events of WW2 is very appropriate to discuss here (aside from Santayana’s famous quote). The America First Party opposed war with Nazi Germany even after early evidence of the Holocaust were coming out. How many people does a mad man have to gas before it becomes a problem?
As far as national interests, I suppose the fact that Syria is tied strongly with Hezbollah and Iran does not concern you. Both are a direct threat to our only real ally in the region. What happens if when Syria is not stopped from using Chemical weapons on its own people, and then it decides that it wants to use chemical weapons on other nations (or give them to those who will)? If we do not stop the use of chemical weapons now, it will only embolden their use later.
I am absolutely against any military intervention in Syria. Removing dictators in the region made way for ISIS. There is no good side, and they all kill children. When we bomb those countries we kill children.
Further, I agree with Ron Paul on this one, it just doesn’t make sense that Assad would do this the whole world watching.
We lost over 6000 of our boys and girls in Iraq with an additional 30,000 wounded. It’s time for us to get out of the war business, and get into minding our own business.
Why would the Khamer Rouge massacre millions of people? Why would the Rwandan Hutu’s massacre millions of Tutsi’s? Why would Hitler and Stalin massacre millions of Jews? Why would the Kim’s of North Korea starve, torture and enslave millions of their own people?
Simple fact is despots do not think logically. They do not think in ways we would consider normal. Why did Assad gas his own people? Because he wanted to, because no one stopped him before and because he thought no one would stop him this time as well. Europe, the UN, no one was going to stop him. Gas his people again and again, and no one wanted to “get involved”. And there is the problem. When no one wants to “get involved” evil is allowed to flourish. The US response was perfect. Proportional, exact, and effective. It sent the signal, “We don’t want to get involved but if you gas your people we WILL!” Far better than the previous administration’s continual moving of the “red line” going, “This time…we are serious” over and over again. President Trump showed that we are serious. Gas your people, and we will punish you. Keep gassing your people, and we will punish you more severely.
PS. Ron Paul is a certified nut job. His beliefs are every bit as dangerous as the far left liberals to this country.
“Further, I agree with Ron Paul on this one, it just doesn’t make sense that Assad would do this the whole world watching. ”
Yet he did and for the reasons svm gave.
No SV, Ron Paul is not a nut job, he just challenges your narrative.
Debbie, I never took you for a war monger.
War monger??? Come on John W.
Is helping innocents by rescuing them from a murderous regime a war monger?? If so, then guilty as charged. And will be again.
We are going to stand by when a man is using chemical weapons on innocent people?
That is not something I am willing to do.
You can’t just play the alternate facts game – “he didn’t do it.”
I am not crazy about Middle East wars because they never seem to be won. But do you really want to just sit by and let people get slaughtered and gassed while we twiddle our thumbs?
Dave,
With all due respect, it is estimated that we killed 100,000 civilians in the Iraq conflict. Do our interventions really save cilivilian lives.
War is not the Christian ethic, in fact, it runs counter to it.
John even with the pinpoint accuracy of our modern weapons, that is the ability to target and destroy one building leaving those surrounding intact, does no good when the bad guys use civilians as human shields. This is exactly what Israel has had to put up with for decades. To put the loss of those lives solely at the hands of the men and women of the United States military is foolish and repugnant.
I am of the thinking that war is here to stay. It is not a nation against nation battle any longer but the target is the same. Kill others.
The US should not put itself in a position to have to follow but take the lead. There is a cost in fighting and a cost in not. So if we count the cost, what do we count: the money spent… the lives lost… the future we leave our kids if we engage… the future we leave our kids if we sit back.
The opinion on where to draw the line will differ but it will not change the fact that there are people who want to kill us, destroy America and rule the world. Wherever we draw it those three things remain constant.
None of us have all the answers (though we might think we do). We all have opinions and we should not begin a philosophical war against our fellow believers because our opinion differs.
We have bombed Syria. Will we do it again? That’s not our call. We will live with the consequences of any action or inaction. We need to be prepared to respond either way.
Then again, we are baptists, we love to fight each other.
Have any of you seen this interview on CNN? An actual Syrian? I have a friend, a long time missions pastor, who posted it and wrote:
“This is exactly what I’ve heard when talking with Syrian refugees around the world. Please listen with open ears and hearts and stop buying into what the media here is telling you. Yes, we need to help everyone in need, but let’s listen to them first and find out what they want, not what we want.”
Here is the video. https://youtu.be/s3uaf1NFxXc
President Trump’s actions should be based on what is best for the U.S. because that is the job to which he has been elected.
That does not mean that the U.S. should be indifferent to suffering. But it does mean that U.S. actions should be balanced against the price to be paid by Americans.
And any action should be balanced with realism.
For example, if pacifying the entire Middle East were deemed to be possible, but it would take 10 years and cost 3,000,000 U.S. lives and trillions of dollars, are there any takers on this blog? I don’t think so.
My own take is that I am pretty forgiving when it comes to the Middle East. There are never really any optimal choices. Some choices are better than others, only marginally so. The Middle East, in my opinion, is a problem that simply has to be lived with and managed. Success is not in the cards. Muddle along. Try not to get ourselves hurt. Keep it contained. Thump the bad guys when they need to be thumped – with impunity.
And don’t do things that cause more trouble. The Syrian refugee crisis is an example. The flooding of Europe and the attempt to flood the U.S. with people fleeing war in the Middle East is not an acceptable policy. If that means we have to be more proactive at this time, then be proactive, and keep Europe and the U.S. from being flooded.
Having said that, I think the Iran deal was a bad idea.
And I would favor strong action for the protection of the only truly functioning democracy in the region that shares many of our values – Israel.
Beyond that, I basically give some slack to any U.S. President.
2 things here strike me. 1 is that Trump seemed to listen to lots of advisors. I believe this is good.
2 is the way Trump acted. Decisively, with strength and surprise.
Will this solve the problems? No. The only point here is “Don’t use chemical weapons.” Point made. Doesn’t need to be made again.
This clearly sends a signal that the current administration is more resolved. And that pays off dividends.
When Reagan invaded Grenada, it wasn’t that big of a deal militarily. But it sent a strong signal. Reagan was not going to allow a Soviet or Cuban puppet regime under Maurice Bishop to run Grenada.
That single act demonstrated how Reagan felt about Socialism in the Western Hemisphere. And it set the tone from there out. No territory was lost to Socialism around the world when Reagan was President. Reagan was not going to give up territory to Socialist thugs. He was going to fight them and root them out where he could, and negotiate with them when he had to – but only as a winner. And that’s what happened.
Every strategy has its limits. As Trump’s does here.
But I am sure Trump is now perceived to not be a push over. That may be the biggest gain. There is also a danger here, however, which brings me back to Trump’s consultation with Generals and people in the international relations fields, all of whom supported this.
Finally, I can only imagine the totally awesome effect this had on President Xi of China.
Can you imagine how Xi must have sized up Trump when Trump said to him at Mar-a-Lago, “President Xi, I wanted to let you know that we have just bombed Syria for using chemical weapons. By the way, how do you like my golf club? Is your steak done the way you like it?”
If one wants to be treated like a leader, act like one.
It’s interesting to me that those who voted for Trump are against this latest action and no Trump, no way is for the action he did. Very interesting.
Is it because pro-Trumpers wanted him to just be for American and no one else? Not to help those in need from other nationalities and countries but ourselves?
I was against the Iraq war, I was against President Obama’s interventions, and now I am against this intervention. Christians had not ought to be advocating war.
I am for taking in the Syrian refugees and I have been all along.
So you are ok with a madman gassing a few hundred people, so when does it become worth “advocating war”? Thousands? Millions?
SV,
It never ends. Jesus mentioned that Pilate murdered a bunch of Galileans at Jerusalem, He never advocated taking military action against Pilate.
So I go back to WW2 again. If Japan did not attack, and the US did not go to war, would the Holocaust be worth going to war for as the depths of its depravity was revealed? MILLIONS of Jews murdered by a tyrant and his followers simply because of their ethnic/religious identity. Where would you draw the line? The fact that you, Eric and John won’t actually answer this is very revealing. If going to war to stop the Holocaust would be right, but stopping Assad’s ability to deploy chemical weapons against his own people is wrong, WHERE IS THE LINE? Or would you allow another Hitler come up and kill millions of people so long as he did not threaten the United States?
No it’s not revealing at all, because think you have a clever little gotcha question. Here’s the deal, if you intervene in every country where a despot killed 70 of his own people you would never stop fighting wars.
Now the answer WWII was the last just war we engaged in.
SV, you really ought to study your history books better, brother. We didn’t go to war in WWII to stop the holocaust.
Hitler did not start off killing millions of Jews. He started off small. The exact same could be said of every despot who has committed genocide. They keep pushing the limits, and when no one pushes back, they go further. Kristalnacht took place in 1938, and estimates have only about 100 people dying that night. Chamberlains famous “We have peace in our time” was only 2 months prior. But Europe did not want war. Germany could could kill a hundred Jews, put tens of thousands more into camps, and Europe did not budge. Only when it invaded Poland did England and France begin to act and even THEN it they tried to limit the extent of the war. Finally a year later, Germany invaded France. There was PLENTY of time to stop Germany BEFORE millions of Jews, but most isolationists/anti-war proponents did not want war, and those Jews were not their problem.
Assad used gas attacks several years ago, and the world condemned him. President Obama drew a “red line”. They used them again, and the world condemned him, and Obama drew another “red line”. He was given NO real deterrent to stop using them. He “thought” he could keep getting away with it. President Trump showed he was wrong. A precise and measured response against the base that launched the gas attacks. I struggle to fathom how anyone could have issue with that. That is unless American lives are the only lives that matter. Unless those poor children who were gassed are just not our problem.
No John we did not…That is exactly my point. Perhaps you should learn english a little better. I said, IF Japan did not attack, WOULD the Holocaust be enough to cause us to go to war. You do not have the courage to answer that question. Most likely because you know how depraved and unChristlike your answer would make you. Or if you did answer in the mortally correct way, it makes you a hypocrite with condemning our actions to restrain Assad.
I did answer the question, SV. Oh, I don’t have the courage to answer a juvenile question from a young man who thinks too highly of his own intelligence? Please.
You never addressed my comment about Jesus never calling for military action against Pilate.
You did not answer my question. You said it was the last just war America has fought. I can only assume you meant that was because we were attacked, and defended ourselves. My question was asking what if we were not attacked by Japan (or if Germany did not honor its defense pact with Japan and declare war on us). In such as case, as more news and evidence of the Holocaust came out, would that and THAT ALONE be enough for war?
Why will you not answer that question?
No, SV, it would not. Stalin killed millions, we never attacked Russia, nor should we have. China, killed millions, and we never attacked them, until they attacked us in Korea, nor should we have. North Korea has starved or killed over 1 million of their own people, we never have attacked them in the modern era, nor should we. Following your errant way of thinking our children would never know peace.
All because only American lives matter? Who cares if millions of people die around the world, as long as WE are safe? The world, will ALWAYS be at war in some form or another until Christ’s return. So how we respond to that war, defines who we are. Do we try to save lives and punish evil? Or do we cower in our own little corner hoping and praying when evil is done with everyone else, they will not come after us.
BTW. Assad has proven connections with Iran and Hezbollah. Both have stated goals of wiping Israel and us off the face of the earth. Do you REALLY think that if Assad is willing to use chemical weapons on his own people, he would have any issues with giving it to people who would use it on us or our allies? Stopping him here and now (rather it should have been 4-5 years ago when he first started using them) is the best way to stop those weapons from being used later.
Yes, SV, aggressive war pretty much defines who we are. And I never said anything about American lives. I said we should not be a war mongering people. Using dishonesty to frame your opponent’s argument isn’t very becoming.
Should we have attacked Russia, China, the Khmer Rouge, And North Korea?
Actually if the United States and the other major wester powers, did more to defend the Tzar Nicolas in the first place (the allies actually occupied parts of Russia at the end of WW1 and held them against the Bolsheviks) than all those other problems would have been so large. Communism spread because of the Soviets into China, and from there to Korea and Indochina (Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos). It was from Soviet support that Castro and Che got strong enough to start their troubles (and remember it was Che that poured gas conflicts in Central Africa).
But yes, I do think Gen Patton was right and we should have stopped Moscow immediately. I do think that limited rules of engagement harmed us in Korea and Vietnam and prevented us from doing what we should have. We should have stopped the Khmar Rouge and stopped the genocide in Rwanda. While I think Clinton’s motives were wrong, we did right in trying to put a stop to the genocide in Bosnia. Yes I believe in that world view enough that I tried to volunteer to serve myself.
SV, General Patton was an imbecile to suggest such a thing. It would have been impossible to accomplish.
Debbie:
It is really interesting.
I think like the trade issue, both parties have had both anti and pro interventionists.
Couldn’t believe the Morning Joe show was praising him. MCCain, Graham, and Rubio too.
I tried to follow Graham’s thinking yesterday and it didn’t seem to be coherent.
I would declare victory and move on. Graham said Syria could be stabilized with 60,000 us troops.
I am not so sure.
But as I said, I have mixed feelings, except for the psychological advantage achieved.
Putin is now left sputtering threats etc. kind of the way we were after Putin invaded Crimea and the Ukraine.
I think some perspective is warranted here. We aren’t at war with Syria. We targeted the air base where the planes that dropped the chemical bombs took off from. We gave notice so as to avoid a loss of life. We claim to have purposefully avoided targeting where the chemical weapons are supposedly warehoused at that air base so as to avoid releasing destruction we couldn’t control. We sent a message about the use of WMD’s.
Now we’re sending another message as a carrier group is steaming for Korea. That’s no coincidence, especially with the Chinese President just visiting.
The danger is escalation. Boots on the ground in the ME and regime change and nation building is a no win scenario. Conflict with a nuclear power with a madman leading it is a no win situation. But do you avoid conflict through strength, or weakness and inaction? History tells us strength in the stronger deterrent.
One thing to note in regards to Syria, while we acted unilaterally, it was done with consent. The leaders of Egypt and Jordan were just in Washington the week all this occurred. Trump has built an unprecedented coalition between the US, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and of all nations, Israel. All have the goal to do away with the chaos that currently exists there caused by radical Islamism. We’ve clearly sided with the Sunni’s and Israel over the Shiites, in Syria, Iran and currently Iraq. It’s really unprecedented.
And depending on your view of prophecy, really interesting.
As a minister of the gospel of peace, I will never be an advocate of war. You would think that the bloodlust of American Christians should have been satiated by 15 years of aggressive war.
There is a difference between not being an advocate of war, and not lifting a finger when evil kills innocence especially when you (or your government) has the power to stop said evil.
We no more have the power to stop it then then man in the moon.
“We no more have the power to stop it then then man in the moon.”
John Wylie: I don’t get it because I don’t believe it to be true and I am kind of again surprised(and I shouldn’t be by now) that you and a few others have this kind of attitude and call it Biblical or Christian. It just isn’t.
I personally cannot stand and see others killed through no fault of their own but to live in the wrong country. Given the right circumstances we could be the victims of such an action, would you then believe no country should step in to aid?
I call it selfishness and I don’t get it you are right about that.
How can someone who claims to be a Christian advocate for the death of anyone, for any reason, at any time. It’s beyond me. Ezekiel 33:11 “Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'”
Debbie,
First of all, i regret that I called you a war monger earlier, please forgive me for that.
I simply am sick of war.
I don’t think that our military interventions have helped the region. I think that our ineptitude created ISIS. I think that we have directly caused the deaths of over 100,000 civilians.
I am genuinely surprised that you aren’t against war.
Mic drop on that one Wylie. I agree 100%
Thanks, Luke. I am just so surprised that so many here don’t get this.
I don’t get it because isolationist/pacifism is morally evil, repugnant, and unchristian. How anyone who claims Christ can sit back and let evil murder millions without lifting a finger is beyond me. Every fiber of my being so desperately wants to be able to serve this nations military, to be out there doing what ever small part I can to stop such evil. But I can’t, I found out in 2005 from a recruiter that despite an ASVAB score off the charts (Cat I FYI…boy the recruiter’s eyes lit up when he saw that…until…), that I am medically unfit to serve with a non-waiverable medical condition (Neurofibromatosis Type 1 if you wish to know). Even if I were to find a church to serve, and meet the qualifications of the SBC chaplaincy programs, I would not be allowed to serve in the US Military. Seeing people so willing to defend other peoples rights not to be murdered by despotic thugs, bothers me. It bothers me a lot.
Pacifism is morally evil and unchristian? Now that’s a first, SV. It’s amazing how your brand of Christianity is so foreign from the teachings of Christ.
Yea Jesus was so pacifistic when he went to the trouble of making a weapon, using it on people, and destroying their property…Oh wait…There are appropriate times to get angry and use violence? How about when God told Israel to kill every last man, women, child and animal when they were taking the land. Their disobedience cost them. Oh but that is the OT God and we worship the NT God right? I mean its not like God was not the same yesterday, today and forever. He changes right? What about when Jesus returns and he wipes out the armies of, the supporters of, and the anti-Christ himself? You think He will be handing out flowers and chocolates? When Paul in Romans says that the government wields the sword to punish evil, what exactly do you think he is talking about? Further, when Jesus tells the disciples to sell a cloak to buy a sword, what was he doing?
I stand by the quote attributed to Burke. There are lines that are crossed, and when they are we MUST respond.
Do you really read your comments before you post them? SMH
You don’t understand the spirit of Christ at all. Jesus never advocated military violence in His earthly ministry ever. In fact, He told us if we take up the sword we would perish with the sword.
And he could not POSSIBLY have been talking about evil people who use the “sword” for evil means tend to die in the violence they beget? Jesus could not POSSIBLY have been upset with Peter because Jesus LITERALLY TOLD HIM that He was going to be betrayed that night and it was SUPPOSE to happen and Peter did not get it? As far as military violence, again I ask what about God’s command to the nation and MILITARY of Israel in taking the Land? When Israel followed Gods military commands they did quite well for themselves. When they did not, well…they suffered.
Finally, your comments directly impute any Christian who serves in the military or as a law enforcement officer. Or do you actually think Christians cannot/should not serve in the military? After all, if they take up the sword, they deserve to die by it right?
No SV, he was speaking to Peter who had just used it.
No the only problem I have is with chicken hawks
And do you know WHY Jesus condemned Peter? Could it be because Jesus KNEW what He was supposed to do, and frankly was a bit angry that Peter STILL had not gotten it? This very well could be the very sword Jesus TOLD His disciples to go buy in the first place! Peter was being selfish, compounded by he was as thick as a brick in not understanding what Jesus had just told him just hours before. Jesus was not condemning Peter for the use of the sword, but the misuse of the sword (i.e. trying to protect the atoning lamb and stop it from being sacrificed…which would have not been good for humanity).
That’s not what Jesus said, that might be what you wanted him to say. Jesus said that those who take up the sword would perish with the sword. Christianity is supposed to be about loving our enemies, not killing them.
BTW by calling me a chickenhawk are aware you making fun of my genetic disability? You do know what a “chickenhawk” means? The standard definition is someone who advocates war but who avoids serving even when they are of age. So again, as someone who had a bag packed for MEPS, was at the recruiters going over my final enlistment packet when I was asked if I have any medical conditions, and I answered honestly and was told it was a non-waveable condition, are you calling me a chickenhawk with the full knowledge of what it actually means. Because if you are, you are making fun of my disability. I hope that is not what you were/are doing.
Perhaps you should think of that before you go around accusing others of lacking courage. Doesn’t feel good does it?
How to I lack courage? I was born with a genetic condition, with NF1. The US military says that no one with that condition can serve; that while I could have gotten waivers for my allergies, for my partial colorblindness, I could not for my NF. How do I lack courage?
You accused me and Eric of lacking you courage. Your accusation was baseless, so I just showed you what it felt like. Don’t go around accusing people of things that you don’t like to be accused of. Do you understand now?
Do you have some kind of genetic condition keeping you from answering a simple question in the form of an ethical dilemma, honestly and openly? No? I thought not.
The Christian thing to do was apologize. Instead you doubled down on your baseless accusation? And then whine that I implied you’re a chicken hawk? Bock bock
You are attacking someone using their disability against them. No matter what your reasons, you are despicable.
No sir you are the one who is dispicable. You have tough rhetoric and then cry like a baby when it’s turned back on you.
You refused to answer a question because you knew how it would make you look. I mean seriously, stopping the Holocaust would not, by itself, had been a reason to go to war?…You have to know how bad that sounds. And so you avoided saying it openly and honestly. Yes that is the mark of a coward. And what do you do next? You use someones medical disorder against them. You use it to tease them and harass them. I stand by everything I said about you.
I don’t really care if you stand by everything you said or not, just don’t cry like a little girl when you get it given back to you.
And if you are serious about serving you could do like several Americans have and join one of the rebel factions, but we both know that you won’t do that don’t we?
“Cry like a little girl”??? Are you seriously the pastor of a church? I’m not. I’m pretty sure I will never be one. But you talk like that, you attack someone’s disability, and you stand behind a pulpit every week?
As far as joining the rebel factions, I would be lying if I said I haven’t thought about it. However right now, I am focusing on my job so I can pay my bills, and getting in shape so I can serve stateside in other capacities. Thank you very much.
Yes I pastor a church and I am not a bit ashamed at what I said to you. You talk tough and use words like “dispicable” and “repugnant”, and call people cowards, but you cannot handle getting the tables turned back on you. You’re like the play ground bully who just can’t handle getting put in his place.
Perhaps if you changed your bedside manner you would not have to be dealt with this way.
“You accused me and Eric of lacking you courage. Your accusation was baseless, so I just showed you what it felt like.”
Really? That kind of attitude will always open a door for evangelism. Then again, maybe it is an acceptable attitude towards our fellow brothers in Christ.
I disagree with the coward remark also, It should not have been said. But to choose to do wrong because he did wrong is a double whammy in wrong.
John Wylie,
I’m not a pacifist per se, but I find myself far more in agreement with your comments here than the others debating with you. It’s a point I’m not sure how we miss, that Christ, nor the early church, never once advocated for military action against an extremely oppressive and brutal Roman government. That’s what the Jews expected of Messiah, not the Lamb of God come to take away the sins of the world.
I wonder how many people Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or whoever saw crucified in their lifetimes? Thousands? Yet not once did they step forward to save them, or advocate for an uprising against Rome.
In fact when Paul wrote Romans 13, which SV cited earlier, he was under the thumb of the Roman government, yet his command was to submit to that very government.
War is the scourge of a fallen human race. We will have it with us until Christ returns. If put in a position where self defense is required, then we fight. If we have given our word in treaty to stand beside another nation, we honor that, as it is our word. But to somehow think that anyone is overcoming the evil of this world other than Christ is a fools errand. There will always be another Caesar, or Hitler, or Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hussein, Assad. Always.
And only One will put an end to that. Let us point people to Him instead of to human devices to solve things only He can.
We can’t solve our own problems in the US; abortion, human trafficking, terrorism, et al. What makes us believe, especially from a biblical worldview, that we can solve those scattered all across the globe?
Amen, Jeff. By the way, I am not a full fledged pacificist either. I’m just largely anti war unless it is absolutely necessary.
svmuschvany, this blog was not about WW 2 . However why do you not cite the thousands of Manchurians and Chinese innocents by Japan from 1931 to 1941, the rape of Nanking. Was not their massacre worthy of our involvement ? There was no more racist country than imperial Japan. If the 72 civilians were killed by iron bombs that would be not call for use of USA force but because it was gas it is different because? We should act in our own national self interest and this is selective outrage. We recently made a one sided peace with a brutal communist dictator who has brutalized and murdered Cubans since 1959. The only refugees America should allow are middle east Christians who are being murdered by all sides due to the upheaval of the social order of these countries. Either you are in a war or you are not, you either go in to win or stay out. The Middle East is a tar baby but one thing they all agree is hatred of our Jewish allies and by extension the USA. Proof will be in the pudding as the establishment turns on Trump as they now have him in a no win situation, he took the bait . I am a Trump supporter as he is the last hope but looks like the centralist establishment will take over, which means the America liberals want will be coming within 20 years. Want to see our future , look at Europe. Trump needs to stay Trump and do what he said if he wants to succeed. The never Trump will always be never Trump but the pro Trump people were for his stated positions on immigration, war involvement, trade , health care and the economy . If he turns his back on this issues than the establishment has won and our fate is sealed.
Over 20 children were killed in the Waco siege carried out by the Clinton administration. Should someone have bombed us with 59 missiles for that?
No but at the very least AG Reno should have been investigated, tried and jailed for her crimes there (and at Ruby Ridge). And I am not so sure on the innocence of President Clinton in those events either.
absonjourney, Dr. Moore apologized “they thought I was criticizing anyone who voted for Donald Trump but that was not my intention”. He was referring of course to those who heartily endorsed Trump not those who voted for him with discernment, such as me. Read his apology, I am sure it was sincere so I accept it . Your political viewpoint that you only want to pay taxes, honor the government , etc. is your political viewpoint based on your religious belief which is fine. However if someone disagrees with you politically that is not a reason to question their Christian values unless you want a religious litmus test for good citizenship. I think the Pledge is fine, only recently has it became any sort of issue except for some sects. No one is forced to say the pledge and no church is mandated to display it. Would you forbid its display in an SBC church if wanted by the local church? Is the flag of a nation that honors the Creator for giving us our lives, who freed a people from the terrible scourge of slavery, who is the symbol of religious and secular freedom, who saved the world from the terror of fascism and communism not to displayed in a place where people gather to pray and give thanks for their blessings? God Bless America is a prayer not a statement so soon the liberals will quit saying it. In my life no Christian has ever believed being a good American was more important than being a Christian. We grew up with Daniel in the Lions Den. This is a phony issue . America is the best country in the history of the world but of course there are blemishes, black eyes and many short comings. What country current or historically can match the record of America? Sure we all know we are not a Christian nation but a nation founded and ran on Christian values, that are now eroding. Europe is comprised of elected democratic style governments with a longer history of Christianity than the USA so what is happening there is relevant here. We share a common historical heritage with Europe. Our immigration policy is a matter of political and social concerns for the good of our nation. They are losing their culture, their traditions and their society and for what purpose? If I believe in strong borders and enforcing our immigration laws that is a political issue not a faith based issue. Not wanting to get involved in a Syrian civil war does not make me any less a Christian. True compassion would have been not to weakly back the Syrian rebels and let the Syrian conflict come to an end several years ago and set up safe zones. President Obama and his foreign policy was a true failure as was the inept President G. W. Bush. There are political issues and there is faith. Your faith can influence your political viewpoint but politics should not influence your faith. Even Grace Kelly in High Noon eventually had to face reality.
I apologize for jumping into the fray between JW and S. I wish I had read the whole thread of comments before speaking.
So please forgive me early entry into the playground fight. I will leave the bickering between them.
This thread has descended into ridiculous personal attacks. Comments are now closed.